1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 2: I feel that we talk obsessively that the problem in 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: politics is at the extremes, far right, far left. I 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: think the problem is actually in the center. 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: Welcome back to voter Nomics, where politics and markets collide. 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: This year, voters around the world have the ability to 7 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: affect markets, countries and economies like never before, so we've 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: created this series to help you make sense of it all. 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 3: I'm alegro Stratton and I'm Adrian Woodridge. 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: In a week of difficulties for political leaders around the world. 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: I Love Schultz in Germany just about clinging on in 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: an important election, Prime Minister Michelle Barnier in France in 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: power but struggling to see how he will get his 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: agenda through the French Parliament. And in the UK, Keir 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: Starmer hit by a scandal around free gifts that pretty 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: much nobody saw coming. We're going to talk more to 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: the gentleman you heard at the top of the podcast. 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: Michael Ignatief was the leader of Canada's Liberal Party from 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: twenty or six to twenty eleven. He led his party 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: to an historic defeat. More of that interview later, but 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: first of all, we're heading into the final stretch of 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: this year of elections, aren't we, Adrian and I think 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: actually the realities even for some of those elections which 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: have been and gone and we have conclusive results like 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: the one in the UK, it is not plain sailing 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: for those new governments. It's quite a startling turnaround, isn't it. 27 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: It's quite extraordinary. We have the Labor Body conference it 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: order to be a great celebration. You know, Labor has 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: just come back to power with a massive majority of 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: the tours have collapsed. They have i think the goodwill 31 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: of most people in the country, and yet it's a 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: pretty miserable atmosphere reading between the lines, partly because of 33 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 3: this extraordinary scandal over accepting gifts that Starmer has got 34 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 3: itself involved in, partly because of his sort of miserablest 35 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: a gender. He's talked constantly about how bad things are 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: and now they're trying to change it a bit, but 37 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: in a very performative way. But the problems of this 38 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 3: country are really very deep and it's going to take 39 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: a long time to fix them. It's difficult for you know, 40 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 3: what are essentially centrist politicians to come back into power 41 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 3: and you know, righte onto victory. 42 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: But Sir Adrian, I'm interested in your take on the 43 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: free clothes, get tickets, spectacles, uh, personal shoppers. Froth Or 44 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: says something deeper. 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 3: You only get one chance to make a first impression, 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 3: and their first impression has not been good. And they've 47 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: also acted in you know, hypocrisy is the greatest of 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 3: all sins in the democracy, and they've been hypocritical. They 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: lacerated the Tories for corruption, for party gates and all 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: the rest of it. They come in to pow and 51 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 3: they do what most people consider as be very similar things. 52 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: When Rachel Reeves made her speech to conference, the backdrop 53 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: was something we called it read out the booming gloom. 54 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's gone too far, And as you say, 55 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: they all were sort of instructed to go out and 56 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: course correct and be less gloomy. And one of the 57 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: nuggets in her speech was this idea that you know, 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: the investment is the answer, and that maybe even the 59 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: government treasury rules might be looked at in order to 60 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: allow borrowing to invest. So I think they're trying to 61 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: say to their supporters, are who are immensely grumpy that 62 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: they've had to go out and defend these free clothes, 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: which they don't think are defensible. They've contorted themselves into 64 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: all sorts of weird arguments in order to make the case, 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: which they're not comfortable with. So they're having to say 66 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: to their own followers, look, you know, there is a 67 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: point to this labor government after all. Just just wait 68 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: until the budget, which is six weeks away. 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 70 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: The problem is that they sort of have this mentality 71 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: of basically saying, invest in Britain, We're a basket case. 72 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: I mean, they've spent so long saying how awful things 73 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,839 Speaker 3: are and how many deep structural problems Britain has, which 74 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: it does that it's also now very difficult to get 75 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: foreign investors to come here and invest. Also, a lot 76 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: of the solutions to the shortage of money, for example, 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: such as public private partnerships, which I think they will 78 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: revive in some sort of way. In the past they've 79 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 3: demonized and said is a terrible set of ideas. 80 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: Adrian looking further afield France, you know, the kissed armor 81 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: could take some comfort from thinking he's you know, he's 82 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: not alone looking across to France, where Michelle Barnier has 83 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: become Prime Minister, but it is still not clear how 84 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: he can get through Parliament what he'd like to get through. 85 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: And then Olas Schultz in Germany just about clung on 86 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: in an election at the weekend, but it was a 87 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: very very close wrung thing. So, as is the theme 88 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: of this podcast, the travails of world leaders continue. 89 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, Barnier is trapped in a really paralyzed political system, 90 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: and Schultz, I mean, the way the only way he 91 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: sort of survived I think in this election was not 92 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: appearing himself, you know, he sort of he sort of disappeared. 93 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: He hid himself during the election campaign because he's so 94 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 3: so unpopular. He's a drag on the ticket. But I 95 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 3: think there's something bigger here that's going on, not just 96 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: France and not just Germany, Europe as a project. I 97 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: read that the Draggy Report on European economic performance, and 98 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: not only is it incredibly depressing, but the one solution 99 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: that Draggy seems to think we need to have, which 100 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: is much more centralized investment in high tech and the 101 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: rest of it, seems to be something that we can't do. 102 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 3: So it's hard to see the great phrase the light 103 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 3: at the end of the tunnel, which Kisamoril and doubtedly 104 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: use in his speech today. It's hard to see any 105 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: light at the end of the tunnel for the whole 106 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 3: of the European continents, so not good news for anybody 107 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 3: at the moment. 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: Didn't somebody want to say that the lights from the 109 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. 110 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: Be careful of those lights at the end of the probably. 111 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: Okay, Now let's get to our main conversation of the podcast. 112 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: We're joined by former politician and professor in the history 113 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: department of the Central European University in Budapest, where he 114 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: was also president for five years, Michael Ignatief. Michael led 115 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: Canada's Liberal Party and official opposition from twenty ozh six 116 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: until he lost his seat in the twenty eleven election. 117 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: That elections saw his party win the fewest seats in 118 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: its history and be reduced to third party status for 119 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: the first time ever. Now, Michael, we often have analysts 120 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: and academics and writers on this podcast, but we don't 121 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: frequently have politicians or people like yourself who've actually been 122 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: on the front line. Before we get onto sort of 123 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: high minded questions of voted discontent and so on. Just 124 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: talk to us about you know, just for me reading 125 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: out those sentences, fewer seats in history and so on. 126 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: Is it still painful? 127 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, sure, you don't go into Pola digs unless 128 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 2: you think you got a pretty good chance of winning. 129 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: And the Liberal Party of Canada was like to think 130 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: of itself as the adults in the room, the natural 131 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: governing party of the country. I think we failed to 132 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: respond to the two thousand and eight financial crisis. I 133 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: think we failed to understand just how radically destabilizing that 134 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: had been to everybody's expectations and how destructive it was 135 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: to their confidence in the center of Canadian politics. And 136 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: so I ran as a centrist, moderate gradualist of a 137 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: kind that we'd known for many years, and it didn't 138 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: fit the sense of radical destabilization and uncertainty that hit 139 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: the Canadian public in two thousand and eight and two 140 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: thousand and nine. So we got clobbered, and to go 141 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: back to where we started it's a very very difficult 142 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: experience to get over. I've had a fantastic time since politics, 143 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: and I'm all fine and don't cry for me, Argentina, 144 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: but it wasn't easy. 145 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: I'm can I ask you a little bit about the destabilization. 146 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 3: I just wonder there was a sort of formula that 147 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 3: liberalism reached, which was economic liberalism to social liberalism, and 148 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: that did brilliantly in the nineteen nineties under Blair and Clinton. 149 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: But are we seeing that formula falling apart everything like 150 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 3: immigration and public health and all sorts of areas. Do 151 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: we need a new formulation of liberalism to deal with 152 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: the fallout of the economic of the financial crisis and more. 153 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: Andrew, I think there's something to that. I feel that 154 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: we talk obsessively that the problem in politics is at 155 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: the extremes, far right, far left. I think the problem 156 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: is actually in the center. I'm a liberal, proud liberal, 157 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: but I think we didn't listen at all to the 158 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: white working class that in my childhood was in unions, 159 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: was organized, felt intense pride in the work they were doing, 160 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 2: and then lost income, lost status. From the early nineteen 161 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: seventies onwards. We didn't listen or pay attention to the 162 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: staggering increase in inequality that began to set in after 163 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: the oil crisis of the seventies, and so instead we 164 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: focused this is the more controversial part on a revolution 165 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: and inclusion, which men embracing a multicultural society, embracing the 166 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: consequences of feminism, bringing racial minorities into the center. I'm 167 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: in the universities now, and we've enormously promoted the entry 168 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: of recent immigrants, minority groups, women into the heights of 169 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: higher education, preaching the doctrine of equality of opportunity. But 170 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: the equality we delivered were for those groups and not 171 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: for the white majority, and I think that's triggered an 172 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 2: enormous backlash and it's threatening the center of politics. Let 173 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 2: me be clear, I am a passionate believer in the 174 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: revolution of inclusion. It's been the best thing that liberalism 175 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: did since nineteen sixty. But I think we neglected to 176 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: realize how disruptive it was to the subtle expectations of 177 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: the white majority, and that now has left our politics 178 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: open to politics of revenge, of politics of resentment, which 179 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: simply has to be dealt with. These are good citizens, 180 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: they need to be listened to. We need to think 181 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 2: this through, but without I woult to want to emphasize 182 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: walking back on the inclusion that I think has done 183 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: so much good to society. 184 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: Michael, what would you do differently? 185 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: Boy? That's such a good question and so difficult. I think, 186 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: first of all, we'd simply acknowledge that this is a problem. 187 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: Instead of acknowledging that it was a problem. We condemned 188 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: white working class voters as racist or sexist when we 189 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: weren't addressing the politics of feeling disempowered, excluded, and not 190 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: listened to. There are racists out there, there are sexists 191 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: out there. But we adopted a kind of conviction that 192 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: our moral belief in a multicultural, feminist, inclusive society was 193 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: such a self evident good that it didn't need to 194 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: be politically defended. And I think we lectured people instead 195 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,479 Speaker 2: of listening to people. That's kind of number one. Number two, 196 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: since immigration has become the ferocious source of discontent across Europe, 197 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: we didn't manage something basic, which is a have a 198 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: regular legal immigration stream that is, welcome immigrants through a 199 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: legal channel, and secondly, have an extremely tough repatriation strategy 200 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: for illegals. The thing that is devastating the fragile consensus 201 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 2: on immigration is a sense that the country's borders are 202 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: not secure. Is a problem in the United States, it's 203 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: become a problem in Canada. It's a problem in every 204 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: European state, and until we re establish the legitimacy of 205 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: national borders and the credibility of immigration control, we can't 206 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 2: sustain what I firmly believe in as the son of immigrants, 207 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: a regular, lawful immigration stream that compensates for our declining 208 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 2: birth rate, fills the jobs that need to be filled, 209 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: and creates avenue of opportunity for the fantastic people who's 210 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: so enrich for example, Britain, Canada, every society. 211 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about twenty eleven when you left power. 212 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: We're now in twenty twenty four. This is thirteen years 213 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: where the dynamics don't seem to be hugely different from 214 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: the ones you're describing as getting wrong in twenty eleven. 215 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: Have you been surprised to watch things over the last 216 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: thirteen years not change and possibly get even worse than 217 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: successive governments not dealing with them. 218 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: I think I am surprised. I think you've got a 219 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: good point there. I think what's staring us in the 220 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: face is a capacity problem as well. I'm struck by 221 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: the fact that we have so much difficulty controlling borders. 222 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: I mean, in Italy, I get it, it's got such 223 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 2: a huge literal and it's exposed into the Mediterranean. But 224 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: I am a bit surprised that two powerful nation states, 225 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 2: Britain and France cannot control these boats. I simply don't 226 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: understand it. And then the solutions that are proposed flying 227 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: everybody to Rwanda are so ridiculous that you can't imagine 228 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: that they aren't laughed off the table of British politics. 229 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: So there is something very odd about what's going on. 230 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: And I think it's corroding not just support for migration, 231 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: it's corroding support for the liberal democratic state. If you 232 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: can't control your borders, you're failing the primary obligation of 233 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: any state, liberal or otherwise. 234 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: But I wonder if there's a sort of strange paradox 235 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: here that if liberals, if centrists, fail to deliver policies 236 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: that can be judge in a practical way improving people's 237 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 3: living standards, they get punished, But if populists fail to 238 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 3: deliver practical solutions to problems, they get rewarded, in the 239 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: sense that people ask the more and more extreme populist policies. 240 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 3: There's a sort of asymmetry here in the way that 241 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 3: the politics is judged, which is extreme destabilizing. 242 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: That's a very interesting remark, Adrian, and I think it 243 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: has to be true, but it reinforces my point that 244 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: the center can hold only so long as the center delivers. 245 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: When the center lectures the public, why aren't you more rational? 246 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: Why aren't you more reasonable? Why don't you accept our 247 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: entire liberal agenda? And then doesn't deliver the basics that 248 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: is a health service you can trust, a secure border, 249 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: and some degree of economic stability. Then the credibility of 250 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: the center gets punished, and then, as you say, the 251 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: extremes get rewarded. And that seems to be to capture 252 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: some of what's going on with our politics. 253 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: So I mean, let's just stay in the abstract for 254 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: a second before looking perhaps if you at your home 255 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: country of Canada. But before that, is this a problem 256 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: of maps, which is that we say that the center 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: can hold as long as it delivers, But the problem 258 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: is delivering. Delivering is now really expensive, and delivering requires 259 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: with all of the problems facing advanced nations around aging 260 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: populations and so on, it just requires a lot of money. 261 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: In therefore, tax increases, and that is not something that 262 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: many people vote for. 263 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: I think that's certainly true. I live Allegra in Austria, 264 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: where the center holds because it's basically a high taxation 265 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: environment that manages to hold its legitimacy because it delivers 266 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: the trains around time. The health service is pretty good, 267 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: the education is okay, that you get a kind of 268 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: balanced equiliverum, high taxation but good public goods. In Britain 269 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: you appear to have in international comparison, low rates of 270 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: taxation and very poor public services. And the whole privatization 271 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: effort in the nineties seems to have not delivered the 272 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: service improvements. You have a kind of constantly discontented electorate 273 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: paying more for less, and that's just pulling the center 274 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: out of liberal centrist politics. 275 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: Can you talk to us about the Canadian situation right now, 276 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: which is you've got Trudam in power. He's supposed to 277 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: face an election next year, but it could happen at 278 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: any point, couldn't it. Michael, just talk to us about that. 279 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: And apparently he's facing a politician that some people are 280 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: calling a polite Trump. You may not look. 281 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: I think that my successor as leader of the party 282 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: led the party to a thumping victory in twenty fifteen, 283 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: I left the party in third place, and he took 284 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 2: it to first place and has been in power ever since. 285 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 2: But he is now the least popular politician in the country. 286 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: I think the irony there is that I said at 287 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 2: the time he's an actor who fully inhabits the role, 288 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 2: which people thought was a very snarky, unkind remark, but 289 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: actually was meant its praise since I was a poor 290 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 2: actor who didn't inherit the role. I actually intended it 291 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: his praise. But I think people have got tired of 292 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: the act. He's always on message, he always sticks the landing, 293 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: every speaking point is hit, and yet the cumulative effect 294 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: is of inauthenticity. People simply don't believe it anymore. And 295 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: so he's in that terrible situation of often saying the 296 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 2: right things, but nobody's listening. And I think at the 297 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 2: moment he faces the prospect of defeat, although he would 298 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: be the last person in Canada to admit it, and 299 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 2: believes he will lead the party into the next election 300 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 2: and that he will win the next election. I don't 301 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: quite see how. But one of the great things about 302 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: political leadership is you sometimes have to believe in yourself 303 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: when nobody else does, and that's clearly what he's doing. 304 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: As for his opponent, he's facing a man that I 305 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: knew well in the House of Commons, Pierre Polief, who 306 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: has an extraordinary story. He's from the Midwest of Canada, 307 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: very poor, difficult childhood. This is enormously in his favor, 308 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: but he's the downside, and this is a feature of 309 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 2: British politics and other politics. He's never done anything other 310 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: than politics. He's been a staffer since the early twenties. 311 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: He's learned and attack dog style of politics, taken straight 312 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: from the US Republican Party. And when people say he's 313 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: a small version of Trump, I think he's adopted the 314 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: entire style of American politics, and it's disturbing that's finding 315 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: an audience in Canada. But because Canada walks around saying 316 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: we're a nicer, kinder America, and our national identity survives 317 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: on invidious comparison with our awful neighbors to this south, 318 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: whom we frantically envy but simultaneously despise. But I think 319 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: we're gonna get possibly a version of Canadian version of 320 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: Trump in twenty twenty five, and that I think is 321 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: not good for the country. Because the fact about Canada 322 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: is that it is this gigantic democracy on tiny population, 323 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: on a huge landscape. We're so spread out from Atlantic 324 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 2: to Pacific to Arctic that the job of a prime 325 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: minister is basically one thing, keep the show on the road. 326 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: And you can't keep the show on the road if 327 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: you run one section of the country against the other, 328 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: one group of Canadians against the other. Unity is the 329 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: only thing a Canadian prime minister has to do. And 330 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: I fear that Pierre Poliev has forgotten that. 331 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: Because Polief's major proposal is axe attacks, which is, get 332 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: did this forcecoming increase in carbon tax? Do you think 333 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: that's putting one bit of the population against another. 334 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 2: Well, he's figured out something that is a real issue 335 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: in liberal democratic politics everywhere, which is that climate change 336 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: politics is not religion, it's politics. It's highly divisive, and 337 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: at a time of rising inflationary pressures on people's household 338 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: incomes the prospect of spending money on a carbon levee 339 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: on your gasoline is extremely unpopular, and so he's seized 340 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: on that and hopes to ride his way to power. 341 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: But it's symptomatic of a wider problem across liberal democracies 342 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: is that climate change policies are becoming more and more 343 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: and more unpopular, and so a liberal politics that cares 344 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: about climate has got to stick with its convictions. And 345 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 2: you know, Trudeau has sacrificed some of his legitimacy by 346 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: warbbling on carbon tax issues at a time when I 347 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: think we need to double down. 348 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: You've been very pessimistic about liberal democracy during this talk, 349 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 3: which I resent a bit normally my job when you've 350 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 3: speeds the mantle. But I wonder if there's anything sort 351 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 3: of positive that we can think about over the last 352 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 3: year or so, and whether there is a chance that 353 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 3: we may be seeing that sort of the end of Trump, 354 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: you know, in the next in the coming election, doesn't 355 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 3: seem to be the leader in this election. Rate Is 356 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 3: there any good news that you can see in the 357 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 3: past and potentially in the future. 358 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: Boy, I'm I'm struggling a bit. Yes, I think liberal 359 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: democracy is having a very difficult time at the theoretical level. 360 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: And that's not the right way to answer the question, 361 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: I know, but let me go there. The reason we 362 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: should care about liberal democracy, in my view, is that 363 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: it's power checking power to keep the people free. One 364 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: of the things that I think has got lost is 365 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 2: we have a liberal democracy in which we have an 366 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 2: ever more overpowering state that is ever less competent, so 367 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 2: it fills the gap between its power and its actual 368 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 2: competence with lecturing the public, and the public is more 369 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: and more impatient with this, when in fact we need 370 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 2: to deliver a liberal politics that really says we care 371 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 2: about your freedom. I don't mean the thatcheri freedom. I 372 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: mean the freedom that is sustained by just good, decent 373 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: public goods that we all share. But if you don't 374 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: have hospitals that care for your mom and dad, if 375 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: you don't have schools that educate the kids, if the 376 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: real way is always late, the liberal democratic vision of 377 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: freedom sustained by public goods just begins to collapse. And 378 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: my own view is that it does require a very 379 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: solid tax space, and that tax space and then is 380 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: being eroded by accountants to super rich people who basically 381 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 2: game the system and drain the treasury the resources we 382 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: need to sustain public goods for all. And then we 383 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: have to say to middle and upper middle class people, folks, 384 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: if you want a society, if you want a place 385 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: that holds together as a place you want your kids 386 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: to grow up, and you got to pay for it. 387 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: And most liberal politicians, I include myself, are very reluctant 388 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: to say, if you want public goods, you got to 389 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: pay for But this is what I think we have 390 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 2: to go to. 391 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 3: We have a labor government here that is trying to 392 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 3: do exactly what you're saying. But partly because they've handled 393 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: it very badly, taking a lot of phoebees and all 394 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 3: sorts of weird things, they're not getting the message you costs. 395 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: But also because it's difficult, It takes a long time, 396 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 3: and democracies are impatient places. 397 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: I wish kir Starmer could listen to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's 398 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: speeches again, because the thing that old Franklin got right 399 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: is whenever it's really tough, you can't spend the whole 400 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 2: time blaming Herbert Hoover. You can't keep saying there is 401 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 2: more darkness before the dawn. You have to say there 402 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: is nothing to fear, but fear itself will get through this. 403 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 2: You know, the thing that he got better than any 404 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: liberal democratic politician of the century, last century or this one, 405 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: is here was a guy who couldn't walk, who made 406 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: people believe in hope. It's just continually inspiring to me. 407 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: And somehow Kure Starmer, who I think is a good politician, 408 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: serious guy, has overdone the grimness so much that he's 409 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: forgotten that key function of liberal democratic politics is just 410 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 2: to say, there is light at the end of this tunnel, 411 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 2: and I am going to get you there and you know, 412 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 2: hang on. I think Tony Blair had a bit of 413 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 2: that quality, but we badly need somebody who has that 414 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 2: magical quality to inspire hope and belief and confidence. 415 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you're gloomy about the prospects in abstract the 416 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: political theory of liberal democracy. Is there a country you've 417 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: talked about Austria where you live now, Is there a 418 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: country that you think is doing it well and we 419 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: should be studying more? 420 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 3: Please? 421 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 2: Well? Well, well, Austria is a pretty odd example because 422 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 2: it's got a center right government. It could have a 423 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: far right government at the end of this month. So 424 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: people listening to me, see what has happened to Ignatiev. 425 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 2: He's lost he's lost his mind there in Vienna. Can 426 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 2: I think of it? Can I think of a place 427 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 2: that's getting it right? It's a little difficult I mean 428 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: the usual suspects come in here, Finland, Sweden, and Norway. 429 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 2: I think I'm pretty fond of Finland at the moment, 430 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 2: partly because it's doing such a good job on two things. 431 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 2: It's facing up to the Russians, and b it's investing 432 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 2: hugely in education. And I think that's as close as 433 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: I can think of a society that's succeeding. But all 434 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: of these places, let's also be the reason people are 435 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: irritated by the Scandinavian example is if you've had, you know, 436 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: two hundred years of peace, you know everything's easy. It's 437 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 2: much tougher, and it's much easier if you're small. That's 438 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: one of the disturbing implications the good countries are all. 439 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 2: The bigger you get, the more difficult managing these societies becomes. 440 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 2: And so that's a disturbing implication. Small really is beautiful 441 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: in democratic terms. 442 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: Do you think that the corporate world could be doing 443 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 3: more to solve these liberal democracy. 444 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: Well, I certainly think they could be paying more tax. 445 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 2: And I'm please understand me, I'm a liberal. So I 446 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: believe in capitalism, I believe in markets, I believe in competition, 447 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,959 Speaker 2: I believe in innovation. But the problem with capitalism is 448 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: we have so little of it. We have so much oligopoly, 449 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: we have so much market dominance, and they keep telling 450 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: us that market dominance is necessary for innovation and growth. 451 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: But I think that's been one of the biggest developments 452 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: of my lifetime has been the steady consolidation of economic power. 453 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: And then a further more disturbing implication again that frankly, 454 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: socialists and social democrats have been quicker to see than liberals, 455 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: which is the stacking of power. Economic power gives you 456 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: political power. Political power gives you economic power, cultural power, 457 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: social power stacked on top. The very idea of liberal 458 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: democracy is that power is unstacked. That is, if you 459 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: have economic power, it doesn't translate to political power. If 460 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: you have political power, it doesn't make you rich. If 461 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: you have cultural or social power, it doesn't translate into 462 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: economic or political The unstacking of power is a healthy society. 463 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: And we have an unhealthy society because power is stacked 464 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: in a kind of funnel in which everything appears now 465 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: to depend on access to political power. The guys in 466 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley, the guys at Google, the guys at Microsoft, 467 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: are tremendously dependent on what could be called regulatory capture. 468 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: They've got the state by the throat, and this is 469 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: an enormous, an enormous challenge. And having said that, we 470 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: have to have a liberalism that understands we want innovation, 471 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: we want entrepreneurship, we want people sitting in a garage 472 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: making the next big thing. But God almighty, they've got 473 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: to pay their way. 474 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: I think that's probably as good a big thought as 475 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: any place to leave it. Thank you very much, Michael, 476 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: And that was brilliant. Thanks for listening to this week's 477 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: voton Nomics from Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by me 478 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: alegra Stratton with Adrian Waldridge. It was produced by Someasadi, 479 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: production support from Chris Martlu and Isabella Ward. Sound designed 480 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: by Blake Maples. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer. 481 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: Sage Bowman is Head of Podcasts and Special thanks to 482 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: Michael Ignatief. Please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen 483 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: to podcasts.