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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman who feels rejected by her husband wonders if

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Speaker 2: there's any hope for their marriage.

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Speaker 3: I'd given them an ultimatum a month and a half

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Speaker 3: before that, where I said, let's focus on our relationship intensively.

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Speaker 3: If things don't go in the right direction, we're going

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Speaker 3: to have to figure out the next step. He told

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Speaker 3: me that I was threatening divorce, and then he said

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Speaker 3: I'm done. I'm just done.

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Speaker 1: First A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in part orn ful, and we may edit

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Speaker 1: it for length and clarity. In the session you'll hear

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Speaker 1: all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 1: Hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have in our

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Speaker 1: mailbox today?

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Speaker 2: Today we have a letter about a marriage that's very

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Speaker 2: young and not going too well. And it goes like this, deotherapists.

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Speaker 2: My husband and I have been married for a year

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Speaker 2: and five months. We dated long distance for only nine months,

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Speaker 2: and I was so sure I was making the right

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Speaker 2: decision in marrying him. I didn't think twice about it.

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Speaker 2: During our courtship, we facetimed about an hour every day

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Speaker 2: and had weekly date nights where we would get dressed up,

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Speaker 2: drink wine, and discuss one or two of the thirty

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Speaker 2: six questions to lead to love. We would sometimes play

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Speaker 2: music together, and the trips when we would see each

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Speaker 2: other were full of affection, cuddling, good conversations, romance, and fun.

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Speaker 2: I thought I had found my dream man. Soon after

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Speaker 2: we got married, there was a sudden change in his behavior.

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Speaker 2: He does not like to sit right next to me

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Speaker 2: on the couch anymore, but now on the space of

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Speaker 2: at least six inches between us. He has become snippy

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Speaker 2: with me, and when I tried to make conversation, he

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Speaker 2: often gives me one word answers. He's gregarious with his

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Speaker 2: teenage son, friends in the community and acquaintances, and he's

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Speaker 2: charmed my family and friends. I'm not sure exactly what

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Speaker 2: happened between us. When I moved across the country and

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Speaker 2: into his house. I tried to redecorate the house and

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Speaker 2: took down most of the artwork in the living room

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Speaker 2: so I could put up my own. I was under

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Speaker 2: the impression that I could redecorate the house, but he

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Speaker 2: did not appreciate this, and that ended up being our

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Speaker 2: first real fight as a couple. He's been colder to

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Speaker 2: me ever since then. I waited so long to find

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Speaker 2: this man and would love for things to work out

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Speaker 2: between us, but I feel like I'm his last priority.

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Speaker 2: His parents tolerate each other but don't enjoy each other's

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Speaker 2: company or companionship. My parents had an extremely loving, fun,

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Speaker 2: affectionate relationship. My mom also passed away suddenly two years ago.

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Speaker 2: I'm thirty eight and really want to be a mum,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know if I can waste more of

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Speaker 2: my time with him. We've been to therapy, but his

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Speaker 2: work schedule often doesn't work with our therapists, so he

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Speaker 2: hasn't been able to join me in therapy for months.

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Speaker 2: I gave him an ultimatum that we wouldn't try for

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Speaker 2: a kid together for the next three months and would

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Speaker 2: focus intensively on our relationship. I suggested doing a marriage

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Speaker 2: workshop or seeing another therapist, but he's against the idea.

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Speaker 2: I would appreciate any guidance on how to proceed. Thank you, Emily.

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Speaker 1: The thing that really stands out for me here is

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Speaker 1: just the lack of communication that's going on with this couple.

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Speaker 1: She mentioned that she moved in with him and she

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Speaker 1: redecorated the living room, but it doesn't sound like they

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Speaker 1: talked about it first. And then they had what she

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Speaker 1: said was their first real fight is a couple, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder what that looked like. How did they talk

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Speaker 1: about this disagreement? And the other thing that really stood

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Speaker 1: out to me was that he does not want to

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Speaker 1: engage with her in any way, even after she's made

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Speaker 1: several attempts to try to talk in therapy with him,

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Speaker 1: to try to go to a workshop together. He just

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Speaker 1: seems to flat out refuse.

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Speaker 2: I think that is very concerning. And the other thing

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Speaker 2: is that with all of that, and with the sudden

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Speaker 2: change of behavior that she talks about, she doesn't give

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Speaker 2: us any hint of the why. It sounds like she

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Speaker 2: doesn't know. So in all the conversations they've had so far,

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Speaker 2: in the therapy that they've been to, and that he

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Speaker 2: did attend a little love, I don't know if that

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Speaker 2: didn't come up or if she never got a satisfactory answer,

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Speaker 2: because she sounds bewildered and confused.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that strikes me is that she said

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Speaker 1: her mom passed away suddenly two years ago, which seems

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Speaker 1: right about the time that either she was getting into

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Speaker 1: this relationship or was already in this relationship. And I

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Speaker 1: wonder what she's done in terms of her grieving. She

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Speaker 1: mentions that she's thirty eight and she really wants to

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Speaker 1: be a mom herself, and I wonder how this all

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Speaker 1: fits together.

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Speaker 2: We have so many questions, So let's go talk to

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Speaker 2: her and get some answers.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to, dear therapists for my heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is dear Therapist.

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Speaker 3: Hi Emily, Hi Guy, Hi Laurie.

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Speaker 2: It's very nice of you to come on our show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for taking my letter.

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Speaker 2: So, Emily, we were looking at the timeline, and from

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Speaker 2: what you were writing, it seems that you met your

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Speaker 2: husband around the same time that your mom had passed away,

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Speaker 2: and we weren't quite sure of what happened when and

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Speaker 2: how one affected the other. Could you tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, my mom passed away a little over two

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Speaker 3: years ago. She had a heart attack, died very suddenly,

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Speaker 3: and so I moved back home to be with my

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Speaker 3: dad to help him out. And right before I moved

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Speaker 3: back home, I decided to add this guy on Facebook

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Speaker 3: who I had met a couple times in person. It

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Speaker 3: just so happens that his family lived out where my

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Speaker 3: dad lived, and he was out there visiting his family.

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Speaker 3: We decided to meet up when I was moving back there.

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Speaker 3: So it was just kind of this amazing serendipitous meeting

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Speaker 3: where we met up a few times. He was out

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Speaker 3: there for Thanksgiving and I was just moving back there

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Speaker 3: to help my dad out, and then he was coming

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Speaker 3: back here where we live now, on the other side

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Speaker 3: of the country. Basically, I guess it was about two

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Speaker 3: months after my mom passed way, so then we started

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Speaker 3: dating long distance and then got married pretty quickly. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I kind of I wonder if my mom passing away,

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Speaker 3: if that kind of opened me up to wanting to

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Speaker 3: be really committed in a relationship. I think that might

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Speaker 3: have been a factor there.

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Speaker 1: Where were you in terms of your own relationships at

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Speaker 1: the time that you started dating your husband, meaning had

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Speaker 1: you been in other long term relationships? When was your

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Speaker 1: last relationship before this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been in several maybe one to two year

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Speaker 3: long relationships that some of them started out very serious.

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Speaker 3: I thought they were going in the direction of marriage,

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Speaker 3: and then one or the other party ended things just

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Speaker 3: because things didn't feel right or didn't seem like they

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Speaker 3: were going in that direction in the timeline that I wanted.

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Speaker 3: I didn't really want to date someone for like seven

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Speaker 3: or eight years before we getting married and having kids.

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Speaker 3: I've always known I wanted kids, So a lot of

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Speaker 3: the relationships kind of ended because they wanted to keep

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Speaker 3: dating for several more years before getting engaged and then

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Speaker 3: moving on.

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Speaker 2: But you're saying, Emilie that many of them started out

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Speaker 2: serious and then kind of ran into problems. I'm just

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Speaker 2: curious about how quickly things became serious, because I understand

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Speaker 2: there's a difference between obviously waiting seven and eighty is

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Speaker 2: and waiting seven to eight minutes, and so I'm just

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Speaker 2: curious about how serious quickly.

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Speaker 3: That's a good question. The other very serious relationship I had,

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Speaker 3: it lasted maybe almost a year, and it was in

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Speaker 3: the first month. We were talking about big things like

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Speaker 3: having a family together, and you know, said I love

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Speaker 3: you very early on, like in the first month or so.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that the relationships ended because you wanted to

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Speaker 1: get married and have kids. But it sounds like in

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Speaker 1: the relationship you're describing that that person was very serious

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Speaker 1: from the beginning. So how does it shift from we're

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Speaker 1: really serious, this person was talking about marriage in the

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Speaker 1: first month to finding out this person actually doesn't want

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Speaker 1: something serious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. So the other relationship I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking of, some things came out about him and that

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Speaker 3: concerned me, and I brought them up, and then I

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Speaker 3: think he felt insecure after that point, and he didn't

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Speaker 3: think he could live up maybe to my expectations. So

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Speaker 3: it went on maybe another six months, and then he

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Speaker 3: ended things.

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Speaker 2: What were your expectations that were hard to live up to?

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Speaker 3: He was kind of into more partying than I was,

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Speaker 3: like with his guy friends. He would do some drugs

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Speaker 3: that I wasn't comfortable with, and he said that he

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Speaker 3: would be willing to change those habits, but I felt

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Speaker 3: like it was kind of a forced thing, and I

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Speaker 3: think he said that I was kind of controlling, so

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Speaker 3: I felt like he didn't really mean it when he

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Speaker 3: said he wanted to change those habits.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that has happened with you several times

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Speaker 1: where it's very intense in the beginning, And by the way,

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Speaker 1: often things are very intense in the beginning of a

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Speaker 1: relationship because people are really excited about each other. But

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Speaker 1: it sounds like things go from zero to sixty. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: right away.

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Speaker 3: That's the big one really where it went from zero

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Speaker 3: to sixty. There was maybe another one also that it

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Speaker 3: was started out really intense and then fell apart, and

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Speaker 3: this other guy I'm thinking of ended up having some

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Speaker 3: alcohol issues.

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Speaker 2: But part of what goes from zero to sixty are

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Speaker 2: your expectations? It sounds like, in other words, I might

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Speaker 2: get really excited about someone and might even say I

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Speaker 2: love you to that someone and talk about maybe marriage

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Speaker 2: and kids. It times that I don't really fully know

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Speaker 2: them yet, and then when I find out more, it

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Speaker 2: turns out maybe that's not that possible. With your current husband,

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Speaker 2: things started long distance. But it sounds like your expectations

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Speaker 2: went from zero to sixty again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they did. He was giving all the signals that

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Speaker 3: he wanted the same things as I did. He told

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Speaker 3: me on our first date, like I want marriage and

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Speaker 3: a family, and I thought that was really attractive. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I've really liked the directness, and I haven't met too

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Speaker 3: many guys who turn out to actually want a family.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've met a lot who maybe say

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Speaker 3: they do, and then they end up having some issues

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Speaker 3: that get in the way of that.

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Speaker 1: You seem to have choked up a little bit when

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Speaker 1: you said you haven't met many guys who have wanted

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Speaker 1: a family. Can you talk about what just happened there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, like, I guess I would love to

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Speaker 3: have the whole package. Someone who's really awesome wants to

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Speaker 3: spend a life together and grow together and has the

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Speaker 3: same like long term goals with a family. Maybe it's

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Speaker 3: made me a little impatient when I'm dating people.

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Speaker 2: I don't think the issue, Emily, is that some of

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Speaker 2: these guys are saying, yes, I want marriage and a family,

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Speaker 2: and many other guys do not, And so that means okay, good,

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Speaker 2: they're at least serious and want the same things I do.

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Speaker 2: What a relief To feel that relief and to feel like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is the right track, I think is absolutely fine.

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Speaker 2: I think what happens, though, is that that excitement and

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Speaker 2: the impatience, as you pointed out, makes you fill in

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Speaker 2: a complete picture from just a few dots. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: so you're making a ton of assumptions about what's filling

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Speaker 2: in those dots, and then you're in the process of

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Speaker 2: discovery about whether this lives up to the assumptions that

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Speaker 2: you've made. Yeah, but the impatience is causing you to

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Speaker 2: decide on a prospect before you've fully vetted that person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one hundred percent correct. That's a good point.

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Speaker 2: Is it one you've been aware of?

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Speaker 3: I definitely am aware of it. With dev like, it's

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Speaker 3: been pretty clear things changed, so quickly, and I did

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Speaker 3: think I was vetting him by having daily conversations, hour

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Speaker 3: long FaceTime meetings and then also weekly date nights, And

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Speaker 3: I thought that that kind of thing would continue, and

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Speaker 3: he had different ideas when it came to marriage, like

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Speaker 3: it just it didn't continue suddenly pretty suddenly. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I did fill in the blanks, I think, But I

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Speaker 3: also I thought I was like doing my due diligence

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Speaker 3: and getting to know him.

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Speaker 1: Did he propose while you were still long distance? Yes,

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Speaker 1: so you decided to get married even though you had

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Speaker 1: never lived in the same city, right. Did you think

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Speaker 1: that maybe things would be different when you're actually in

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Speaker 1: the same location. You don't have to be living together,

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Speaker 1: but at least be in the same city.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember people suggested that to us, like, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe you could go there and just work and live

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Speaker 3: there and get to know each other better. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, no, we're good, We're getting married.

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Speaker 1: So before you moved there to get married, did you

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Speaker 1: both talk about what it would mean to be married,

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Speaker 1: and how did you talk about integrating your lives from

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Speaker 1: being long distance to all of a sudden moving in

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Speaker 1: together creating a life together. Sounds like he was married before.

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Speaker 1: He has a teenager who lives with him. How did

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Speaker 1: you talk about that? And did you even know his son?

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Speaker 3: I did know his son. We took a lot of

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Speaker 3: trips to see each other back and forth, probably once

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Speaker 3: a month or so, a long weekend at least, and

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Speaker 3: then I spent like a two week period with them

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Speaker 3: before we got married, and we were kind of getting

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Speaker 3: the house ready a little bit for me to move in,

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Speaker 3: and that all went pretty well. I knew we weren't

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Speaker 3: going to talk an hour every night at dinner like

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Speaker 3: we had been doing that whole nine months, but he

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Speaker 3: now says that he neglected his son while we were

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Speaker 3: doing that. I knew things would change, like we probably

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Speaker 3: weren't going to have as many high quality conversations, but

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Speaker 3: I didn't know things would change as much as they did.

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Speaker 1: Is his son living with you full time?

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Speaker 3: He's with us halftime and I'm actually I'm currently out

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Speaker 3: of the house. I moved out about two weeks ago

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Speaker 3: because things came to a head. We had a really

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Speaker 3: big fight, probably a couple weeks before I wrote the letter,

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Speaker 3: and he ended up stonewalling me after that fight for

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Speaker 3: like six weeks.

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Speaker 1: What was the fight about?

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Speaker 3: So he's lived in this house for a long time,

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Speaker 3: and in our office there's his desk, his son's desk,

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Speaker 3: and my desk, and my desk was just piled with

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Speaker 3: stuff because I didn't have a bookshelf in there, and

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Speaker 3: he had two full bookshelves, and so I was asking, Hey,

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Speaker 3: can I take over this one shelf here to put

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Speaker 3: some of my stuff on. We had talked about that

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Speaker 3: for actually several weeks, like, hey, one of these weekends,

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Speaker 3: let's move the stuff from the shelf so I can

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Speaker 3: put my stuff on it. And it just didn't happen

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Speaker 3: week after week. So finally I said, hey, listen, if

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Speaker 3: we don't get around to it next week, I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to do it on my own. And he got

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Speaker 3: really mad about that.

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Speaker 1: What does that look like? Where he got really mad

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 3: He raised his voice, kind of gets really anxious, uptight.

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Speaker 3: It feels just not good to be around him. He

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Speaker 3: was like, don't create a problem for me, Like, if

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Speaker 3: you move that, I'm not going to know where it is.

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Speaker 3: That's going to create another problem in this house. And

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Speaker 3: then I said, okay, listen, you can make your own

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Speaker 3: decisions about what you do, but I'm going to take

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Speaker 3: that into consideration. I've given him an ultimatum a month

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Speaker 3: and a half before that, where I said, let's folks

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Speaker 3: on our relationship intensively. If things don't go in the

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Speaker 3: right direction, we're going to have to figure out the

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Speaker 3: next step. He told me that I was threatening divorce

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Speaker 3: and then he said I'm done. I'm just done. So

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Speaker 3: he basically stonewalled me for six weeks after that.

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Speaker 1: What does that look like? He stonewalled you.

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Speaker 3: I started sleeping in a different room because he asked

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Speaker 3: you to no because of just the tension from that

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Speaker 3: particular fight.

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Speaker 1: So he stonewalled you, but in reaction you left him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess we were both maybe stonewalling each other.

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Speaker 2: Yes, your first big argument was around the same issue

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Speaker 2: of you redecorating the house and here you want to

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Speaker 2: just move something Michelle for much smaller endeavor than you know,

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Speaker 2: redoing the living room, and he's not participating. Did you

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Speaker 2: express to him how you felt about those things? Were

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Speaker 2: you able to say things like, I really want to

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Speaker 2: be able to feel at home. The way that you

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Speaker 2: keep postponing this makes me feel like you're not making

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Speaker 2: room for me figuratively literally, Were you able to talk

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Speaker 2: about the emotional piece for you.

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Speaker 3: I did. I said all of that, and his response

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00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:19,760
Speaker 3: he wanted to redecorate together, but when it came down to, hey,

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Speaker 3: here's a picture of a couch that I think would

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Speaker 3: look good, or here's some bookshelves I think would look good,

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Speaker 3: he ended up turning down every proposal I had. And

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Speaker 3: I told him that too. You say you'd want to

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Speaker 3: work together, but then you turn me down for every

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Speaker 3: suggestion I make.

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Speaker 2: So when you moved out, you said, two weeks ago,

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Speaker 2: how did that go down? And what's happened?

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Speaker 3: Since he and his son were going to be out

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Speaker 3: of town this one weekend, and I was just like, okay,

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Speaker 3: this is my opportunity to get everything out of here.

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Speaker 3: I moved things into storage and now I'm staying with friends.

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Speaker 3: Since then, he's written me. Actually every day he texts

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Speaker 3: me and asks how I'm doing, and he's trying to

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Speaker 3: be in touch a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I'm confused, Emily, because you said you had that argument

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Speaker 1: about the shelf. He said, we're done, and then you

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Speaker 1: decided to move out, Like he might have said that

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Speaker 1: in a moment of anger distress, but then you decided

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Speaker 1: to move out. It doesn't sound like the two of

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Speaker 1: you really communicated about what happened between you. What he

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Speaker 1: meant by we're done, why you were moving out? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what do you think it's in the way of the

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Speaker 1: two of you communicating. You mentioned that you went to

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Speaker 1: couple's therapy, and then it was hard to get him

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Speaker 1: to go there. But in the times that he did go,

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Speaker 1: there were the two of you able to communicate it all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I really enjoyed couples there because it was like

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Speaker 3: one of the few times where we really did communicate.

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Speaker 1: What was he able to tell you about himself and

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Speaker 1: his feelings about you coming into his house and coming

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Speaker 1: into his life with his teenage son and redecorating, and

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Speaker 1: and why he was feeling a little bit crowded and

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Speaker 1: wanted some space. Did you understand the why of it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? He also said he felt like I was controlling.

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Speaker 3: We didn't talk a whole lot about the space and

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Speaker 3: the redecorating in Couple's Therapy. I would say a lot

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Speaker 3: of last year the beginning was like me meeting friends

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Speaker 3: in this town. We were in trying to establish myself

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Speaker 3: a little bit and finding my own happiness. So I'm

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Speaker 3: not completely reliant on him.

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Speaker 2: Actually, Emani Laurie's asking what did you learn about his

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Speaker 2: feelings about things? Because when you're saying he said, I

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Speaker 2: am controlling. What did you learn about how he feels

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Speaker 2: in these situations or in any way about these things?

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Speaker 3: I got a sense that he was very anxious about

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Speaker 3: his son graduating from high school next year.

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Speaker 2: But what did you learn about his feelings about you?

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Speaker 3: He said, he was very grateful for me, and he

387
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 3: thought I added a lot to the family, and he

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Speaker 3: really loves me and cares about me. I mean another

389
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 3: complication in first year of marriage, he found out he

390
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Speaker 3: had cancer, so he had to major actually two major

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Speaker 3: surgeries for that.

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Speaker 1: How far into the relationship were you when he found

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Speaker 1: out he had cancer?

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Speaker 3: About six months into the marriage he found out he

395
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Speaker 3: had cancer. I wondered if the lack of like good

396
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 3: communication and coming up with kind of a system of

397
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Speaker 3: communicating regularly was because of all the things he had

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Speaker 3: to deal with with his health. But his last surgery

399
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Speaker 3: was almost a year ago.

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Speaker 2: Was he able to talk about his feelings about having

401
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 2: cancer and how he's feeling about those surgeries and prognosis

402
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 2: and all those.

403
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Speaker 3: Things a little bit? But he's not an expressive person

404
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 3: about his feelings. He likes to think of himself as

405
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Speaker 3: this like happy, go lucky, golden retriever. People come to

406
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 3: him with their problems. He's just always the happy one.

407
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 3: So I think even with me, that really put us

408
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Speaker 3: at a distance, because he wanted to come off as

409
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Speaker 3: just always had it together, didn't really want to discuss

410
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Speaker 3: things that didn't make him look strong.

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Speaker 2: But you would ask him how he's feeding about these things.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I did at that point.

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Speaker 2: Why not? Do you think?

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Speaker 3: I think part of it was so one of our

415
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,719
Speaker 3: assignments from our couple's therapist was to check in with

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00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 3: each other every night and try to include something about

417
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Speaker 3: a feeling that something good or bad that happened in

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Speaker 3: the day. And he just had a very hard time

419
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Speaker 3: including something that had to do with his feelings. I'd

420
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Speaker 3: feel like, so, how was your day and he would

421
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 3: say it was good, and I'm like, can you give

422
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 3: me more details? Else? Who did you interact with? And

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Speaker 3: he didn't really want to go there.

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Speaker 1: What you're asking, Emily is the what who are you

425
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 1: with those kinds of things. That's not so much about feelings,

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00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: that's reporting events. I'm thinking about the fact that your

427
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: mom died a couple months before you started this relationship,

428
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Speaker 1: and I don't know how you processed your grief or

429
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Speaker 1: how you've gone through that. And then your husband gets

430
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: cancer six months into your marriage, and it sounds like

431
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: the two of you didn't really talk about what was

432
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Speaker 1: going on for either of you, and you keep talking

433
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Speaker 1: about how he's not a really good communicator. But I

434
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Speaker 1: wonder if you're aware that maybe you don't have a

435
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: lot of practice in communicating, and that when the two

436
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: of you are together, do you want to have some

437
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: kind of communication going on? Mm hmm, but that maybe

438
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: the way you're going about it hasn't worked because the

439
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: two of you just really don't know how to do it.

440
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: You say he had cancer. I don't know. Is his

441
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: prognosis okay at this point and besides surgeries, did he

442
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 1: go through chemo, did he go through radiation?

443
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 3: None of that? Just surgery thankfully, so his prognosis is

444
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 3: pretty good.

445
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: But it must have been scary.

446
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was terrifying for me. And I think I

447
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 3: did communicate that, especially at the beginning when we were

448
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 3: trying to figure out what was going on, and I

449
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 3: remember him saying he was scared before the surgery.

450
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: Did you know how he wanted to be supported?

451
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: I think I did, and he was extremely appreciative of

452
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 3: me being there for him. And he says, like, I

453
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: saved his life because I told him I like insisted

454
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 3: that he go to a really good cancer treatment center.

455
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: So yeah, he was like, he was very appreciate of that,

456
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 3: which was nice.

457
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: What makes you emotional when you're saying that right now?

458
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's nice. I guess it's just like

459
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: he really I think he did have maybe he does

460
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 3: have feelings of love toward me, but he's it just

461
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: didn't get expressed enough.

462
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 2: And so when you recall a moment like this where

463
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: it the gratitude of the affection did get expressed, that's moving.

464
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

465
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: I mean I want to get back to something you

466
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: said earlier that was just curious about. You said that

467
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: he and his son were out of town and that

468
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: was your opportunity to move out. Why did you need

469
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: an opportunity to move out? Why did you have to

470
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: wait for that?

471
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: We had started going to therapy. It was like three

472
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: weeks in a row, and that's the first time we

473
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 3: were going consistently since last year. I think he knew

474
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 3: I was serious about what I was saying, So I

475
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: was afraid, and I was thinking about past relationships where

476
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: I've stayed too long, and I've had this moment in

477
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 3: those relationships where I was like, oh my gosh, I

478
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: wish I had left, like nine months before when there

479
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 3: was kind of a window. It was just an obvious

480
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: window to get out.

481
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: You moved out without telling him that you were moving out.

482
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 3: No, I texted him and told him he was out

483
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: of town. And that's kind of when I decided to

484
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 3: do it, when he had left already and I just

485
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: sent him a text and.

486
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: Said, can we back up just a second. You went

487
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: a couple's therapy. For three weeks, you'd been trying to

488
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: get him to go to therapy. He's finally going to therapy,

489
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: and you finally get what you want, meaning you're talking

490
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: at least with a therapist, and when you finally get

491
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: what you want, you decide to leave.

492
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, what did you.

493
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: Learn about him in those three weeks? If you could

494
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: put aside all of your feelings about when it happened,

495
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: and you were an observer and like a journalist and

496
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: just reporting on this, what do you think you would say, oh,

497
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: this is what I learned about what he was experiencing.

498
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: You don't have to agree with it, but just what

499
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: did you learn about his perspective?

500
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: I learned that from his perspective, I wasn't taking his

501
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 3: story into account or his needs and wants.

502
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: Which were what the needs and wants.

503
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: Well with the house. But he really wants to have

504
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 3: a say in what happens and what goes on.

505
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: That he communicated to you, even independently and before. But

506
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 2: what did you learn about his feelings or his needs

507
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: and wants, Because yes, it sounds like he's not the

508
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: most fluent and open communicator about his feelings. But as

509
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: Laurie was saying, your communication issues come when you encounter

510
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: someone like that. What tends to happen with you is

511
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: that you think, Okay, I can't get information from them.

512
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: I need to make unilateral decisions and think about what's

513
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: best for me. And at that point, you start making

514
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: big decisions without including him in them, without communicating to

515
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 2: him about them, so you start therapy. It would have

516
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: been a good opportunity to say, look, I'm starting this,

517
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: but it is too little, too late in some ways.

518
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: So I'm here because I want this to work out,

519
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: but I need things to progress, and I want to

520
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: be clear that I'm not here with a ton of rope,

521
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: at least to alert him and the therapist that you

522
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: know you're in some kind of place there. But yeah,

523
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: those processes happen in your head. You move out, you're

524
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: living with him and with a teenage boy who's going

525
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: to be affected by that, and it's not something that's discussed.

526
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: There's no preparation for the kid about the move that's

527
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: about to happen. It's almost like, well, I decided and

528
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: I'm doing it. Do you notice that you tend to

529
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: start making these decisions by yourself.

530
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: I actually did bring that up in therapy in what way.

531
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: The week before I did send that text. We had

532
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: in our therapy meeting, I said, I'm looking at moving out.

533
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: What was his reaction?

534
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: He told me he didn't want me to move out,

535
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: since he told me I'm done, since that big fight.

536
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: That was one of the first times he told me

537
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: how much I do mean to him and how much

538
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: he loves me, and he thinks I contribute so much

539
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: to his life and the good far outweighs the bad.

540
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: And then you moved out anyway.

541
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, why because of the too little, too late.

542
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: I think I'm not sure why you wanted to go

543
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: to therapy with him if there was literally nothing he

544
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: could do to help prepare the marriage.

545
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: In that last session, I did say, I'm going to

546
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 3: be looking at moving out unless some kind of miracle happens,

547
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: like if you want to go to an intense therapy

548
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: workshop weekend with me.

549
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: But why are the anti because he's finally coming to

550
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: therapy consistently. But any couple therapists, if you come in

551
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: and say, a couple syrapist, you have three weeks to

552
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: fix this because otherwise I'm out. No couple syrvice would

553
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: take you because I like, well, that's not going to

554
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: happen in three weeks, and so let's not waste anyone's

555
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: time or money. And so he's actually going you actually

556
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: say I'm really thinking of leaving at this point, and

557
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: he's like, but I really appreciate you, and you make

558
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: my life richer. And at that point you don't give it,

559
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: say we'll give this process six months and evaluate. You

560
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: literally cut and run. At the point where he's I

561
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: don't know how much he would have been able to do,

562
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: but he's showing up at least. Yeah, Why that's not

563
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: clear to me. Why.

564
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: I guess it was like it was after the sort

565
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: of deadline I had already given of, like let's try

566
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 3: to work on ourselves intensively for three months. He wasn't

567
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: able to go to therapy that whole three months.

568
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: Why did you even engage in therapy with him at

569
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: that point if you were sure that there was literally

570
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: nothing he could do to repair the marriage. It sounds

571
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: like you weren't communicating that you were done. And my

572
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: other question is why were you done if finally you're

573
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: getting what you want. He's coming consistently, he's communicating how

574
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: much you mean to him. He's saying all the things

575
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: that he wasn't able to say before. And as guy said,

576
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: we don't know what would have happened. Maybe you would

577
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: have found indeed, this is not a marriage that works.

578
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: But right at the moment where finally you two are

579
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: in a position to communicate with each other and get

580
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: to know each other better, you, as guys said, cut

581
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: and run.

582
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: M hm.

583
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you? If you weren't willing

584
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: to give the marriage a chance, why were you going

585
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: to therapy? Why did you ask him to go.

586
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. I think I wanted to

587
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: talk to it and just hear what was going on

588
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: in his head at that point, because I didn't know.

589
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: But you didn't communicate that. You didn't say, you know what,

590
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: Here we are in couple's therapy. There's absolutely nothing I'm

591
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: willing to do to repair this marriage. But I just

592
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: want to hear what's going on in your head.

593
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: Well, I did want big change to happen in him,

594
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: in us, that.

595
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: You didn't give it an opportunity to happen. Big change

596
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: doesn't happen in three weeks. Yeah, And to me it

597
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: smacks a little bit of stuff you've done before, which

598
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: is that you decide in your own head. Right. This

599
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: one wants a family, he wants kid, He's kind, affectionate.

600
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: It's a long distance. We only see each other once

601
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: in a while. We've never even had an argument. I

602
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: always say to people, and until you've had an argument,

603
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: you don't know the person. Now, there's a lot that

604
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: hasn't happened. I've met the son, but I haven't lived

605
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: with a son. I don't know how that's going to go.

606
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: My mom just died recently. I might be looking for

607
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: another family as a replacement. Unconsciously, all those things might

608
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: have been going on, but you're goind have decided, Okay,

609
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: this is it. I'm going for it. And at the

610
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: point do you decide you're going for it, the data

611
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: doesn't matter because you're going to go for it. So

612
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: then you go, and you immediately assume I get to

613
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: redecorate the home that he's lived in with his son

614
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: without asking him, and then he gets really upset, and

615
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: then you decide, Okay, I'm giving an ultimatum, not let's

616
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: talk together and give ourselves a period of time. You

617
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: give the ultimatum, and you decide, and then, despite a

618
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: change in the circumstance of him again with no guarantees,

619
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: actually engaging in a process that might even theoretically lead

620
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: to the big change you were looking for. Nope, but

621
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: I gave myself an ultimatum. So now I'm going to

622
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: make another unilateral decision and move out and not even

623
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: tell him. And so you have this pattern of making

624
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: decisions that involved the other person by yourself and then

625
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: enacting them regardless of whether that's a fit with the

626
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: new realities.

627
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: I think I also knew he would be really upset

628
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: when I like and I didn't want to be there

629
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: with them in the house movie out.

630
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: Emily, I'm going to interrupt, because what I notice is

631
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: that when I ask you a question, or Guy asked

632
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: you a question, you go off to something else. Guy

633
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: was talking about a pattern that he's noticed, and I'm

634
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: wondering if it made you uncomfortable to hear that, and

635
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: that's why you went off to talk about more content

636
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: as opposed to your feelings. What was it like to

637
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: hear guy talk about that pattern that you have. Maybe

638
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: it made you anxious, Maybe it made you feel defensive.

639
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I do feel like a little bit defensive,

640
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 3: But it is good to hear too, and I know

641
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: I have things I'd like to work on.

642
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: We're not saying that dev hasn't contributed at least fifty

643
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: percent to what's going on between the two of you,

644
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: but we're saying there is something that's going on with

645
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: you that maybe widens the gap between what you say

646
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: you want and what you actually do. So you say

647
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: you want a stable relationship, You want, as you said,

648
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: the whole package. You want this person that you really

649
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: care about, that you really love, that also wants the

650
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: things that you want in life, marriage, kids, and then

651
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: you do things that set you up for not having that.

652
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: We don't know what dev is willing to do or

653
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: capable of doing, and I don't think anybody has that

654
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: information at this point, but we do know that a

655
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: lot hasn't been talked about between the two of you.

656
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: That you had a long distance relationship where you say

657
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: he was very communicative and very emotionally present, and then

658
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: you got in the same place. There's obviously going to

659
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: be a big adjustment to living in the same place

660
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: with someone integrating into the family where there's already a teenager,

661
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: and then he gets very ill. You're still dealing with

662
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: the loss of your mother and you want to be

663
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: a mom yourself. And then finally, after all of this,

664
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: he says, Okay, I'm coming to therapy. And he's there

665
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: consistently for three weeks, not much, but you know, we

666
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: don't know what would have happened, and you text him

667
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: and say, I'm out of here. So you wanted something,

668
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: You started to get closer to the possibility of seeing

669
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: whether or not that could happen, and you leave, And

670
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: that's the pattern we're talking about. What's important to us

671
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: is for you to see whether it works out with

672
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 1: devor or you want to move on to somebody else,

673
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: that you see this pattern so that it doesn't repeat.

674
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I need to process it because

675
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 3: it's like as soon as something kind of shows some

676
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 3: kind of potential or possibility, I make a unilateral decision

677
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 3: a lot like I've got to get out of here.

678
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: Yes, you described him as he was the man of

679
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: my dreams. And if given it was a long distance relationship,

680
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: given it happened right after your mom passed away, given

681
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: you never really had any big arguments, that you never

682
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 2: actually lived with him or with the sixteen year old,

683
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: then he couldn't have been the man of your dreams

684
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: because there was just too many unknowns. But you kind

685
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: of decided he's the man of my dreams. Therefore I'm

686
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: plunging forth. And that part is problem A and problem

687
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: B is once you decide to plunge forth, if there's

688
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: signs that, oh, maybe not so fast, you don't heed.

689
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: And if there are signs that maybe not so fast

690
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: in terms of leaving either, you don't heed. And that's

691
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: the issue that you make these decisions, and then you

692
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 2: do them by hooker by crook, even if they counter

693
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: your own wishes and needs and what you want.

694
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of impulsive decisions.

695
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: Reactive the reactive decisions, and what you're reacting to is

696
00:37:53,400 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: a deep longing and desire for this connect that you

697
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: haven't found in any of your other relationships either. And

698
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: the question is are you doing the things that will

699
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: help you find that or are you getting in things

700
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: too quickly, leaving them when maybe there's a possibility of

701
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: having something better that gets in the way of what

702
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: your goal is. Yeah, it would be one thing if

703
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: you went to therapy and dev was not interested in

704
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: having any of these conversations or opening up in any

705
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: way that would give you really good information. And even then,

706
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: though you probably wouldn't leave by text, it would be

707
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: a conversation in therapy, even if he wasn't happy about it.

708
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: This is why I'm leaving. I don't feel you're able

709
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: to show up in the way that I need. But

710
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: he's trying to show up and it's only been three

711
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: weeks and we're not saying stay or go. We're looking

712
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: at how you make these decisions that seem to what

713
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: you're saying you want. You said, I've always really wanted

714
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: to be a mom. I want the guy, I want

715
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: the family, but you haven't been able to find it.

716
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's just about dev you've had

717
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: other relationships. I think this similar pattern has happened. Yeah,

718
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: And we want to make you aware of the pattern,

719
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: because if you're not aware of the pattern, you'll repeat

720
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: the pattern.

721
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't want to do that.

722
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: And part of the pattern is as loris saying, yes,

723
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: you're thirty eight. Sure, you have a lot of friends

724
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: who've gotten married already, you have kids already, and you're

725
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: feeling the sense of time and urgency, and that's making

726
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: you rush things. And my concern for you right now

727
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: is now you're thirty eight and married and you want

728
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: to rush things again, Like I don't want to spend

729
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: too much time in therapy because I'm thirty eight. If

730
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 2: it's not going to work out, I need to end

731
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 2: this and move on to the next thing. And then

732
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: you're really likely to rush the next thing.

733
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

734
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: And to really examine what you imagine marriage is going

735
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: to do for you. What kind of hole is it

736
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: going to fill for you? What kind of safety will

737
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: it provide for you that you don't already have. You

738
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: try to move very close, thinking that that's going to

739
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: provide all of that. I see you nodding, so that

740
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: resonates and maybe dev got a little lost in this.

741
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: You had ideas about I'm going to move in the

742
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: house is going to look like this, and you know

743
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: this is what it's going to be like. And he

744
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: needed more time, he needed more space, but couldn't communicate that.

745
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: One thing he did communicate was I feel like I

746
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: neglected my son, and so he was probably trying to

747
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: protect his son a bit, but didn't know how to

748
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: communicate that to you. Right, So these are all questions

749
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: that couple's therapy could be really helpful for. Where's our independence,

750
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: where's our togetherness? Where's our space? Where's our closeness?

751
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 3: Right?

752
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: You said that you've been texting since you've moved out.

753
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: What's the current understanding of what's going on?

754
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 3: We haven't really asked any hard questions. He's just asked,

755
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: how's your day today? What did you do today?

756
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: So you're continuing the pattern of talking without talking really, Yeah,

757
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 2: how does it feel to you where you've moved out?

758
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: It's such a dramatic move and that you're texting back

759
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: and forth without addressing what's going on. Is that more

760
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: comfortable for you or less?

761
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: I actually didn't want to be really talking right now.

762
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 3: I'm just sort of giving brief replies to his messages.

763
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: What do you want right now?

764
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 3: I think I want to cut my losses with him,

765
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 3: move on. I'm thinking I will want to just have

766
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 3: a kid on my own at this point. I know

767
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 3: I do want a kid, it just hasn't worked out

768
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 3: with anyone. And I'm like, I don't have much time.

769
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 1: It feels like a lot of decisions are out of

770
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: fear as opposed to a sense of groundedness. That's almost

771
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: like rushing into the marriage where maybe you haven't done

772
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: enough research on whether that is the right decision for you.

773
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: And I think that what you end up doing is

774
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: wasting a lot of time. That is the thing that

775
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: you're afraid of doing is wasting time. But I think

776
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: that you waste time by making impulsive decisions because if

777
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: you could slow down a little bit, and here's the paradox,

778
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: if you could slow down a little bit, you'd actually

779
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: make better use of your time. So if you had

780
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: slowed down a little bit with dev In the beginning.

781
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 1: You'd be more clear now at thirty eight about whether

782
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: or not this was the right relationship for you, or

783
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: maybe you would have broken up earlier and found a

784
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: different relationship that worked better for you. But the rushing

785
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: is what trips you up. The rushing actually wasted your time.

786
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, good point, And now.

787
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: The rushing again might waste your time. The rushing to

788
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: leave this might be a waste of time because you

789
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: don't really know whether there's something that could really work here,

790
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: which you could find out within a few months. You'd

791
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: get a sense of what direction you were headed, and

792
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: that's not a huge time cost. And you'd also learn

793
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: a lot about your patterns, so that even if you

794
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: decide that, okay, we took six months and I don't

795
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: think this is going to work, you don't want to

796
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: do that with the next person. Even if you have

797
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: a kid on your own, you'll probably still look for

798
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: a partner, and you don't want to do that, especially

799
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: with a child. Keep making these impulsive decisions. Yeah right,

800
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: The slowing down actually prevents you from wasting time.

801
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 3: I don't know how to do that.

802
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: You have to a identify the reactive rush impatience, and

803
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 2: you have to learn to tolerate it, because you have

804
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: to get a little bit more comfortable with the discomfort

805
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 2: of not knowing. You keep saying I want to cut

806
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: my losses, I want to minimize how much I'm losing,

807
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: But the minimizing losses is not a strategy for winning.

808
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: You have to learn to catch it and sit with

809
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: the discomfort of not knowing if this is going to

810
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: be the right decision, but knowing that taking time to

811
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: think things through and to identify what seems like the

812
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: most reasonable course of action, that's the thing that's going

813
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: to allow you to make more sound decisions. The voice

814
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 2: in the back of your head is going to be saying,

815
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: but hurry up, and you're going to have to learn

816
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 2: to say, I mean giving myself, say, three months to

817
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: explore this in therapy. I'm giving myself this much time

818
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: before I decide to stop looking for in future fertilization.

819
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: And even once you do that, the voice in the

820
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: back of your head will be shouting at you to

821
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: hurry up that it's dangerous. Once you know the pattern,

822
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 2: you can identify it and try and neutralize that voice

823
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 2: as much as possible, But you have to know that

824
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 2: it's there and that it's going to keep trying to

825
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 2: trip you up by rushing and wasting time because of it.

826
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 3: That's really good. Yeah, my therapist actually said that to me,

827
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: that I make impulsive decisions.

828
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: Speaking of things happening suddenly, you said that your mom

829
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: died of a heart attack unexpectedly. Can you talk a

830
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: little bit about what that was like for you and

831
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: what has been like for you since, and how much

832
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: you've shared of that pain with dev Yeah.

833
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 3: It was awful. It's been so hard.

834
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 4: We were so close, so it was really I miss

835
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 4: her a lot. She was a wonderful person, just an awesome,

836
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 4: wonderful grandma. And yeah, and mom and friends. We had

837
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 4: just a really fun, warm relationship. We're very much alike too,

838
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 4: of all my siblings.

839
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: And the other part that Lloyd's question was about how

840
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: much of this you shd with Devin. I don't mean

841
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: in a single conversation, because grief is something that's ongoing

842
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: and that needs to be talked about in an ongoing way.

843
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. I did. When we were dating, shared a lot

844
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 3: about her and how much I missed her, and I

845
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 3: remember we would talk on zoom and I would be

846
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 3: crying talking about her.

847
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: How would he react.

848
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 3: He was very warm and sympathetic and sweet and just

849
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 3: would let me cry it out, and it felt very

850
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 3: therapeutic to talk to him about it. Actually, he was

851
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 3: able to come to her memorial service, which was like

852
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 3: six months after her death, so he was really nurturing

853
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 3: and there for me in that time. And then like

854
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: after we got married, I remember crying about her, thinking

855
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 3: about her, and telling him more about her, and it

856
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 3: was a little bit different. I don't know. I got

857
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 3: a feeling like that he was not comfortable with it.

858
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 3: I don't really know.

859
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: Why, but you didn't ask.

860
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 3: No. That's been kind of my achilles heel. I think

861
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: in a lot of relationships, I want to accommodate the

862
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 3: other person and I want them to feel comfortable. But

863
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 3: I've had a hard time kind of speaking out about

864
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 3: my needs. I think I had communicated in our therapy sessions.

865
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 3: He did know that that was a need of mine,

866
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 3: like emotional closeness and intimacy.

867
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: Did he know how to give that to you in

868
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: a way that you were looking for somewhat?

869
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 3: I would ask, Hey, it's Wednesday, can we do our

870
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: date night? And he'd be like, well, it depends. We

871
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 3: might have his son that night, and he wouldn't want

872
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 3: to do it if we did have his son there,

873
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: and then rescheduling it was hard and a lot of

874
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 3: times it just wouldn't end up happening.

875
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: Did you get angry at some point and go stop

876
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: pushing me off? This is important?

877
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that one I did. I said, Hey, I'm going

878
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 3: to set a timer right now for five minutes, and

879
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 3: it was good to talk about it, and it was

880
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 3: a little bit longer.

881
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: So when you insist, when you follow up, when you

882
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 2: really have agency and empowerment, you're like, oh, no, this

883
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: is happening. It happens.

884
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

885
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: What's notable to me is that he engaged in the

886
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: conversation with you and it felt good afterward.

887
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

888
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that you would learn in couple's

889
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: therapy if you stayed in it with him and he

890
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: stayed in it with you, how the two of you

891
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 1: could have more of those kinds of conversations when you're

892
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 1: actually able to talk about things. He seems open to change,

893
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: And I think that willingness is so important in a marriage.

894
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: Are you willing to meet your partner somewhere that makes

895
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: sense for both of you, that feels good for.

896
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: Both of you. And also he doesn't do subtle In

897
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: other words, if you're hinting, implying, you know, even requesting softly,

898
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 2: it's probably not going to land. But when you're being

899
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: super clear, then he is it.

900
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 3: I definitely hear you. It's hard.

901
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: What makes it so hard for you?

902
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 3: I think being a middle child with a lot of sisters,

903
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 3: it was like the squeaky wheel gets the oil kind

904
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 3: of thing, and I didn't want to be a squeaky

905
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 3: wheel because there were just so many other needs.

906
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: As a kid. What you learn is that my needs

907
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 2: are less important because there are people who have louder

908
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: voices speaking wheels than mine, and so I, you know,

909
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: contact them my parents, and there's only so many resources.

910
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna sit this one out exactly.

911
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of how I grew up.

912
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: And you're finding that that doesn't work very well in

913
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: a marriage, right.

914
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

915
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: So, Emily, we have some advice for you, and we

916
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: think that you have to make a really thought through

917
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: decision and we want you to choose between two options

918
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: that we see that you have. The first option is

919
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: that you decide that you know what, I'm going to

920
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 2: give this marriage one last chance. I'm willing to give

921
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 2: it six months in couple's therapy to do several things.

922
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: First of all, to practice speaking up, voicing my needs,

923
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: voicing my feelings, really learning to be much more open

924
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: and much more communicative yourself in this relationship, because that

925
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: is a lesson that will work for you in other relationships.

926
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 2: But if you decide to take this option, what you

927
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: need to do is talk to dev and I need

928
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: to say to him thev First of all, I want

929
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: to apologize for how I left. I texted you. I

930
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: didn't coordinate that with you. I didn't discuss it with you.

931
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: I didn't plan it with you, and I really should have.

932
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: But I did what I tend to do, which is

933
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: to rush, because I want this so much that I

934
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 2: think I rushed in to the relationship. We both did,

935
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: and now I rushed out of it. And I think

936
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 2: both of those were mistakes in some way, because there

937
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 2: are a lot of things you and I didn't discuss

938
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 2: before we got together. We didn't discuss what it would

939
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 2: be like for me to move from where I am

940
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: to go to a new place. We didn't discuss what

941
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 2: it would be like for me to live with a

942
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: teenager for the first time. We didn't discuss how you

943
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: would feel about somebody moving into your home and how

944
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: you would make space for them. We didn't discuss the

945
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 2: fact that he felt that you were ignoring your son

946
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 2: too much and not paying him enough at ten during

947
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: our courtship, and therefore, how is it going to work

948
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 2: when I'm there, what accommodations we have to make. There's

949
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: so much we didn't discuss, And when I think about

950
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: how you feel about certain things, I have so many

951
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: questions because I don't know, because we didn't have those conversations,

952
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: and I think we really really need to have them.

953
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: And I have to say that there are times when

954
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 2: I've been really clear in terms of what I needed

955
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: from you, and you delivered in those occasions when I

956
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: was really really clear, and it felt really good to

957
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,439
Speaker 2: me that you did.

958
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: And these are the steps that couples usually take on

959
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: the road to getting married. They have these conversations. And

960
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: for you two, all those conversations that you had on

961
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: zoom or on the phone, there are certain things that

962
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: you might have shared that felt very intimate, but it's

963
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 1: very different from being face to face with another person

964
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. And so it's almost like you

965
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: have to go back and do the things that you

966
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: didn't do in the right order. You don't want to

967
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: waste time, and we don't want you to waste time.

968
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: So what I think waste your time is dilly dilling?

969
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: Is am I in this? Am I not in this?

970
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: How long should I hang on? Should I stay at

971
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: my friends and just keep texting him? That's a complete

972
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: waste of time. We want you to either say to depth,

973
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry for how I left. We didn't take

974
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,479
Speaker 1: the steps in the right order. I feel like there's

975
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: a lot of potential here, but only if we go

976
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: to couple's therapy and we go every week for six months,

977
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: and I understand that some weeks you'll be out, but

978
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to miss two weeks in a row.

979
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: So if you're away, we can zoom so we don't

980
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: miss two weeks in a row, and that we both

981
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 1: really open up to understanding each other, to saying the

982
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: things that we're afraid to say about how we feel

983
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: about ourselves and each other. Everything's out on the table

984
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: and we can make a really good decision. Because dev

985
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to waste time.

986
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 2: The other option that you're considering is just to kind

987
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 2: of cutbake minimize your losses, which is the strategy you

988
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 2: typically use and think of maybe just go and having

989
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 2: a kid by yourself. And we're concerned that that option

990
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 2: is also replicating the pattern from the post of rushing

991
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: into things before you know enough. So if you decide

992
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to I waste more time in this

993
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 2: marriage because I don't think it's going to go somewhere

994
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 2: and I don't want to spend six months doing that,

995
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: And we think you should also not rush into having

996
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: a kid right now. I think that you need to

997
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 2: use the same amount of time to really work on you,

998
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: to really figure out this pattern and where it comes

999
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 2: from and how you change it going forward.

1000
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 1: So either way, you're not wasting time. You're using these

1001
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: six months to set yourself up so that you don't

1002
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: end up wasting time in ways that don't serve you

1003
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: because of impulsive decisions. So if you decide I don't

1004
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: want to ask Dev to go to couple's therapy with

1005
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: me for six months, we'd like you to go into

1006
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: individual therapy and tackle these issues that we've addressed head

1007
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 1: on about this pattern that you have the impulsivity, the avoidance,

1008
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,959
Speaker 1: the sense of I'm going to grab onto this because

1009
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: it feels safe, and this place of operating out of fear.

1010
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 2: And the middle child dynamic of let me not voice

1011
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 2: my needs and my feelings and make too many demands

1012
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 2: because you know, my parents have squeaky wheels to take

1013
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: care of, and not just be disappointed.

1014
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we would like you to spend the six months

1015
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: thinking about what would be the best next step for me.

1016
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: Would it be having a child on my own? Would

1017
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: it be freezing my eggs? Would it be dating in

1018
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: a different way and considering that I might not have

1019
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: a biological child, but I might have a child a

1020
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: different way. What are those options? What does it look

1021
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: like to have a child on my own financially, logistically, emotionally,

1022
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: all of the things that, again weren't discussed going into

1023
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: your marriage you would need to discuss in therapy going

1024
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 1: into this parenthood situation so that you're not thinking about

1025
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: it after the fact. What would it be like for me?

1026
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: Is this the life that I want? Would I regret

1027
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 1: not spending those six months seeing what is possible in

1028
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: my marriage given that there's so much that I really

1029
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 1: do love about him, but neither of us is skilled

1030
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: at communicating, and neither of us knows how to talk

1031
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: about the important things yet.

1032
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: But can we learn, Maybe I can develop these skill

1033
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 2: sets that I can take with me to another relationship

1034
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 2: if this one doesn't.

1035
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: The other thing we would like you to do is that,

1036
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: if you do decide that you want to invest six

1037
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: months to learn more about who you are to each

1038
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: other in the marriage, that you together find one hour

1039
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 1: to do what sort of a modified date night. Date

1040
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 1: nights can feel like a lot of pressure. People feel

1041
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: like we have to be intimate. It has to be

1042
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: a grand gesture. It has to feel like it felt

1043
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: when we were in that honeymoon phase. And what we

1044
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: would like is just for you to do something that

1045
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: you both find fun and you only have an hour.

1046
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: It has to end after an hour. So maybe you

1047
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: like to take walks, maybe you like to listen to music,

1048
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 1: cook together, but it can only take an hour, so

1049
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: it can't be a big deal, and it doesn't have

1050
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: to feel romantic or anything like that. It just has

1051
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: to feel like, wow, we have so much fun when

1052
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: we do this. Let's go take an hour and do

1053
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: that and don't feel like you have to enjoy it

1054
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: in the way that you enjoyed it back when you

1055
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: were in that honeymoon phase. Just be there in the moment.

1056
00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: We don't want you to spend a lot of time

1057
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,439
Speaker 1: planning because because I think that that tends to feel

1058
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: very stressful to dev Yeah, but we also don't want

1059
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 1: him to feel controlled, where it's like, here's what we're doing.

1060
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: The assignment should be, let's take ten minutes. We're going

1061
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: to set a timer and we're just going to throw

1062
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: out things that sound fun to us, and by the

1063
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: end of the ten minutes, we're going to decide on one.

1064
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: It's going to be super fast, and we're going to

1065
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: spend one hour doing it, and we're going to pick

1066
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: the date that we're going to do it this week.

1067
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: And if you decide that you are invested in this

1068
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: for the six months, you need to make the couple's

1069
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: therapy appointment this week before you report back to us. Okay,

1070
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: all right, and we want you to make that decision

1071
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: in the next twenty four hours.

1072
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 3: Twenty four hours.

1073
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have twenty four hours to decide which route

1074
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:42,439
Speaker 1: you're going.

1075
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 3: Okay.

1076
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: The reason that we want it in twenty four hours

1077
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: is because we think that, even with this information and

1078
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: processing it, that you're going to steal dilly dolly because

1079
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: that's what you do. And then you're going to make

1080
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: an impulsive decision. And we want to say either way

1081
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: you're going to spend it is oh.

1082
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 3: My gosh, oh are you guys my whole life.

1083
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: Well, that's why we're trying to not waste your time.

1084
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: So right now you have twenty four hours. By tomorrow

1085
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: evening you are going to get on a zoom with

1086
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: Dev and have one of two conversations with him.

1087
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: So how does that sound to you?

1088
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 3: Yeah? I like that. That's good.

1089
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: All right, So we very much look forward to hearing

1090
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: from you. Emily.

1091
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much. I appreciate this.

1092
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: You're very welcome. It was just interesting to see how

1093
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: in their relationship so much of what normally would happen

1094
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: leading up to a decision to spend a life together

1095
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: didn't happen because she was in such a rush and

1096
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: he was in such a rush for whatever reason.

1097
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 2: And they both don't have good skill sets in that regard,

1098
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 2: so it wasn't a comfortable, easy thing for them to do.

1099
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but when you think about what happened, her mom died,

1100
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: she's moving somewhere new, he has a teenage son. They're

1101
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: not used to having a third person.

1102
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 2: There and then can sit.

1103
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: And that was right six months into their marriage. So

1104
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that people think about therapy is

1105
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: that you're not supposed to tell somebody whether to stay

1106
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: with somebody or whether to go. We can't make those

1107
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: decisions for people. But I think what we're asking her

1108
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: to do is to really look at here are these

1109
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: two ways that the next six months could play out.

1110
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: What do you think would help you grow the most,

1111
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: given that you're just discovering that you have this pattern

1112
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 1: that you haven't spent a lot of time with it.

1113
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: Maybe you were vaguely aware of it, but it really

1114
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: seemed to hit her in the session. Wow, I never

1115
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: really thought of it that way.

1116
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: And that's why we gave these two options that both

1117
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: of which are a six month hiatus from rushing into

1118
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 2: something out of something, because she can't rush in either direction.

1119
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 2: So I think it's really important that we put the

1120
01:00:58,480 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 2: speed bumps in all way.

1121
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the speed bumps in order to help her

1122
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: to get more clear and really reinforcing that paradox of

1123
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,959
Speaker 1: sometimes you need to slow down in order to move

1124
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 1: faster in the direction you want to go.

1125
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely you listening to deo therapists. We'll be back after

1126
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: a short break. So we heard back from Emily, and

1127
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 2: I'm really interested to see what happened and which option

1128
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 2: she chose.

1129
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 3: Hi, Lauri and Guy, thank you so much for talking

1130
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 3: with me last week. I wanted to give you an

1131
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 3: update on your advice. So I met with Dev and

1132
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 3: I did apologize for how I left and decided to

1133
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 3: ask him if he would be open to doing therapy

1134
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 3: every week for six months. I really liked Lorie's point

1135
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 3: about that I could grow more and doing therapy with

1136
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 3: him than I would doing individual therapy. And I also

1137
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 3: did really appreciate Guy's point about trying to break my

1138
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 3: pattern of dilly dallying. So I did decide to ask

1139
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 3: him that and he agreed to that idea. So he

1140
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 3: is going to be traveling a lot this spring, but

1141
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 3: he did commit to doing weekly therapy and if he

1142
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: has to miss a week, then we'll do zoom therapy.

1143
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 3: And we did go back and forth on some ideas

1144
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 3: of a one hour date we could do together. At first,

1145
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 3: he actually threw out the idea of doing pickleball, which

1146
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 3: I thought was a really cute idea. We had a

1147
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: snowstorm coming in the next day, so we ended up

1148
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 3: deciding to just make dinner together. But we do want

1149
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 3: to play pickleball together at some point, and I thought

1150
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 3: that was just really fun and kind of a creative

1151
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 3: idea on his part. Making dinner together was really nice.

1152
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 3: He was being really sweet and affectionate with me, which

1153
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 3: I really appreciated. It felt really good. It felt like

1154
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 3: he is making it clear to me that he does

1155
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 3: want this to work. It was really nice to spend

1156
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 3: that time with him. He kind of like cuddled next

1157
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 3: to me on the couch a little bit, and it

1158
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 3: was good. It did feel maybe a little bit confusing, too,

1159
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 3: because he hasn't done that in so long, and I

1160
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 3: don't know if we were just in a rut as

1161
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,439
Speaker 3: a married couple living together. But I do think it's

1162
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 3: definitely been beneficial that I'm out of the house right now.

1163
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 3: I do feel nervous a little bit about how I

1164
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 3: will feel in six months, but I'm trying to keep

1165
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 3: in mind that the goal of this time is to

1166
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 3: ask questions that we should have asked before we were married,

1167
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 3: and so I don't have to decide now how I

1168
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 3: will feel in six months, and I can decide one

1169
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 3: way or the other if my questions are not being

1170
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 3: answered satisfactorily. But I really, I really appreciate the time

1171
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 3: you guys spent with me and the insights you had.

1172
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 3: I just can't thank you enough. I did want to

1173
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 3: know your thoughts on how do I know when I

1174
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 3: am dillydallying? So thanks a lot.

1175
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: So it sounds like this week Emily really stopped the

1176
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: dilly dilling and she did make a choice between the

1177
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: two options that we had suggested, and she chose option one,

1178
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 1: And it sounds like dev was very receptive to trying

1179
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: that option with her. Things changed very very quickly in

1180
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 1: terms of going from he wants me six inches away

1181
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 1: on the couch to he kind of snuggled up with

1182
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: me on the couch. He agreed. It sounds like immediately

1183
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: to do the six months of couple's therapy and if

1184
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: he's out of town, to do it on zoom. So

1185
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: it sounds like once she communicated in a different way,

1186
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: he decided he was going to respond in kind.

1187
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: I agree that was encouraging. I just don't know if

1188
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 2: that's a behavior he's going to continue once they're actually

1189
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,919
Speaker 2: physically back together in the same house again, because again,

1190
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 2: they did really well when they were long distance. It's

1191
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 2: the in person stuff that didn't work. And now they're

1192
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:21,919
Speaker 2: not long distance, but she's not living there, So that's

1193
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 2: something that I'm a little concerned about. And I'm also

1194
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 2: concerned that she will take a foot of the pedal

1195
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 2: too soon. In other words, if this continues for a

1196
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 2: little bit, you'll go Okay, things are fine without doing

1197
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 2: full six months of vetting.

1198
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: Yes. I like that she realizes, though, that there are

1199
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: a lot of questions that she needs answered that should

1200
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: have been answered before she got into a marriage. And

1201
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: so if she can keep her eye on the prize

1202
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: there and wait the six months, if they both do

1203
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:56,479
Speaker 1: the therapy weekly, they'll learn a lot about each other,

1204
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: and they'll learn a lot about themselves individually well. And

1205
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: I hope that they keep up this sixty minute date again.

1206
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: It can be really low key. I think a lot

1207
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: of couples think we need to do something really romantic,

1208
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: and we don't have time, and it's stressful. Just that

1209
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 1: idea of let's play pickleball for an hour or let's

1210
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: just cook together. Those are the kinds of things that

1211
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: people need to just connect with each other in a

1212
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: way that's not about the disagreements, which doesn't mean they're

1213
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: avoiding them. It just means this is not the time,

1214
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: and we have a different time, which is called couples therapy,

1215
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: where we do talk about those things.

1216
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 2: I often say to my couples patients, like, guys, don't

1217
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 2: forget date night can be about romance, but it can

1218
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 2: also be about fun and should be, and they should

1219
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 2: remember that fun is just as important as romance. And

1220
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: she asked this question about how would she know if

1221
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 2: she's kind of falling into those patterns again, And so

1222
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 2: I hear it when she says, oh, I'm worried about

1223
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 2: how I'm going to feel in six months time. There's

1224
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: the pattern because you're not focused on how you feel

1225
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 2: right now, on what's going on right now now. You

1226
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 2: don't know how you're going to feel in six months time.

1227
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 2: But when you're asking yourself that you're not paying attention

1228
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 2: to how you're feeling right now, that's something you really

1229
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 2: emily have to watch out for that you're really asking

1230
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: yourself what's going on in the present and doing that

1231
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 2: rather than anticipating how I might feel and what do

1232
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 2: I do if I feel that way six months from now.

1233
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: I like too that she added to the email that

1234
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: she had forgotten to leave in the voicemail that they

1235
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: already made the couple's therapy appointment. So I feel like

1236
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: they're really on that track. It's not just let's talk

1237
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: about it or we've agreed to do this, but we

1238
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 1: actually have an appointment. And I hope that they say

1239
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: to the therapist in the first session, we're here because

1240
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: we want to take six months to get to know

1241
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 1: each other and this relationship better, to see how we feel.

1242
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 1: We rushed into this, and we want to see where

1243
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: we are in six months and make some decisions. And

1244
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be really helpful for the

1245
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 1: therapist to know.

1246
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: And another consideration is that the in crisis right now

1247
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 2: because she moved out, and people are much more flexible

1248
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 2: and willing to do stuff when they're in crisis, but

1249
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: that will die down soon, and that's when they really

1250
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 2: have to be mindful and intentional of continuing all of

1251
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:15,240
Speaker 2: these efforts even if the crisis is behind them.

1252
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: Next week, a man who met his current partner because

1253
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: they shared the same ex wonders if they're past will

1254
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: doom the relationship.

1255
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 5: Seems almost too good to be true, like am I

1256
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 5: missing a key thing? Or is there something wrong with

1257
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 5: me and something wrong with my current partner that attracted

1258
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 5: us both to the X? Or is there something that

1259
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 5: he saw in both of us that's gonna like drop

1260
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:40,679
Speaker 5: at some point.

1261
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1262
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1263
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: support your therapists by telling your friends about it and

1264
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 1: leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help

1265
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 1: people to find the show.

1266
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1267
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 2: email Us at Lori and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1268
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1269
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and

1270
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 2: Katie Matty. Our intern is Anna Doherty and special thanks

1271
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,679
Speaker 2: to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait

1272
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 2: to see you at our next session. Deotherapist is a

1273
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. Fisherfold