WEBVTT - #517 Jason Flom and John Grisham with Jamie Snow 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.000 It was eight pm on Easter Sunday nineteen ninety one 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.520 when a Bloomington, Illinois gas station was held up and 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.840 the eighteen year old attendant, Bill Little, was fatally shot. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.880 The police made a composite sketch and questioned men in 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.960 town with criminal records, including twenty five year old Jamie Snow, 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.720 but neither the physical evidence nor the composite sketch were 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:30.520 a match. Anyway, They approached Jamie again two years later 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:35.440 and he was cleared by a polygraph. Then five years 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.720 after that, almost eight years after the crime had taken place, 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.800 two new detectives developed the theory involving Jamie Snow's then 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:48.279 pregnant sister in law driving a getaway car. Rather than 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:52.680 take a sweetheart deal to trade false testimony for freedom, 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.840 she instead took a Sophie's choice and opted to give 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.000 birth to her baby in jail and rolled it down 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.160 on a trial that could have resulted in her spending 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.200 the rest of her life in prison. All of this 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:11.000 instead of agreeing to lie on the stand. Luckily, her 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.959 attorney was able to expose the state's case for what 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.120 it was and she was acquitted, While Jamie was not 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:28.120 as fortunate. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:30.520 You can listen to this and all the Lava for 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.199 Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:45.319 to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.360 to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got a case out of 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:53.920 Illinois that features numerous jailhouse niches and incentivized witnesses who 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:58.040 are either coerced or threatened, whose testimonies have all either 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.040 since been recanted or been proven to be false. We've 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:06.680 got police testimony that refutes the state star witness. There 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:08.600 was a ton of physical evidence in this case, but 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.800 none of it matched the suspect. Jamie Snow our guest 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.280 today who's calling in from an Illinois correction institution where 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.680 he's been for almost a quarter of a century, and 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.480 welcome to Ronful Conviction. All. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.200 I appreciate you guys given me a voice and joining him. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.720 One of his appellat attorneys from the Exoneration Project, Carl Leonard, 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.680 welcome back. Thanks for having me and to help us 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.920 tell this story. Today we have my friend, a legend 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.720 in the innocence community. Sorry if I embarrass you. John, 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.239 a guy who's written a few books in his life, 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.320 including the most recent one, his second non fiction book, Framed, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.040 number one of the bestseller lists, which profiles numerous cases 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.840 of people who were framed and who were actually innocent. 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.800 John is on the board of Centurion Ministries as well 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.280 as the Innocence Project. And without further ado, John Grisham, 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:56.400 Welcome to Ronful Conviction. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.680 Happy to be here. Jason. This case, You've got terrible 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.639 police misconduct and took them eight years to make an arrest. 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.160 You've got misconduct by the prosecutors, judges who are asleep, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.080 You've got jurors who are easily convinced. You've got a 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.400 very innocent man who's now spent twenty four years in prison, 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:14.960 and you've got a murder that will never be solved 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:16.400 because the cops screwed up the case. 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.600 But let's go back to before this case began, to 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.800 Jamie's childhood in Bloomington, Illinois. 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.440 Yeah, I grew up in Bloomington. I had a pretty 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.440 decent childhood, went to a Christian school up to about 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.400 seventh grade. My mom and dad were divorced, so they 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.960 had a really good step dad. I never gave him 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.520 the credit he deserved. Until I had already grown up 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.880 and had kids of my own, and then I recognized 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.240 the sacrifice that he had been making for me and 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.680 my sister. But my mom developed cancer and died by 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.839 the time I was seventeen, and that drew me off 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:49.920 into a dark path. I guess, you know, I was 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.320 acting out, doing a lot of dumb shit, eddy thefts 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.760 and stuff like that. You know, I started running around 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.000 with the wrong people. I mean, I never had any 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.480 violence in my history, but it was the juvenile delinquent. 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.360 Despite that pass, Jamie soon turned his energies toward fatherhood 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.800 and had taxed kids with his wife, Tammy. 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.800 My dad also died by the time I was twenty one, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.200 so I feel like I was plugging all them holes 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.200 in my heart with my kids. You know, if I 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.200 hadn't gotten arrested when I did, I'd have probably had 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:19.120 a baseball team. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.080 And speaking of arrest, Jamie nearly got dragged into a 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.520 different case just before this one, a February nineteen ninety 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.280 one arm robbery that his friend had committed while they 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.039 were out together with a larger group. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:32.440 Everybody that was in the car of the night that 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.240 he did. Nobody knew what he was doing. It was 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.359 my wife's birthday, February eighteenth, ninety one. The next day 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:41.920 I got the newspaper and now went over and I 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.320 asked him tell me that this wasn't you, and he 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.440 was like, yeah, don't worry about it. You know, which 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.159 you don't know won't hurt you. Obviously it can't hurt you. 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.640 But the guy fled guilty to it and testified to 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.560 the grand jury that he didn't give you the money 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:57.680 up with anyone. 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.800 And this guy was also an alternate respect for what 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.880 had happened on Easter Sunday, March thirty first, nineteen ninety one, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.400 a little after eight pm, when an eighteen year old 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.400 gas station attendant named Bill Little tried to stop an 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.440 arm robbery and was fatally shot. 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.599 Mister Little was killed while he was at work. It's 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:18.279 a relatively small area behind the counter of that store. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.120 The stool that he would sit on was knocked over. 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.359 There was a fair amount of blood. By all accounts, 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.560 there was some sort of a scuffle here. The scene 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.200 reflects that mister Little had previously said if someone tries 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.480 to rob the store, he will fight them, and there 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.640 were fingerprints that were recovered some of the fingerprints are 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.760 Bill Little's, which one would expect, and there are unknown 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.640 fingerprints that have never been identified at all. None of 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.479 the fingerprints have ever been matched to Jamie. There was 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.240 never any physical evidence tying Jamie to this, and. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.039 With DNA testing in a more primitive state, they didn't 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.159 test from multiple contributors to the crime scene, blood or 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.160 DNA on the bullet casings or Bill Little's close now. 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.839 First officers on the scene, Paul Williams and Jeff Pilow, 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.120 were responding to a silent alarm and they saw a 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.200 young man named Danny Martinez filling up his tires on 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.279 the east side of the gas station lot. Martinez later 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.440 claimed that when he finished with his tires, he walked 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.120 toward the office and saw someone backing out of the door. 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.359 Then he heard two pops and turned back to his car, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:24.039 thinking that it backfired, and when he turned back around, 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.000 he claimed that he found himself face to face with 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:27.760 the assailant. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.480 Bloomington police officer responded to the scene was observing the 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.440 goings on at the store before entering, saw Danny Martinez 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:41.520 and saw Danny Martinez leaf and is absolutely certain that 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:45.200 Danny Martinez never encountered anybody leaving the store. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.880 While this officer Jeff Pilo and his partner Paul Williams, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.440 said as much in the tape recorded interview, more attention 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.320 was paid to Martinez a statement in which he described 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.080 someone wearing a zipped up waistlength coat and a ball cap, 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.480 standing five foot seven. I'll remember Jamie six' to one 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.400 was also wearing a cast on his arm at the, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.560 time and none of the eyewitnesses mentioned a, cast including 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.360 a fourteen year old, Neighbor Carlos, luna who lived about 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.560 two hundred feet down the street to the, east who 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.360 had claimed to have seen the assailant leaving the, scene but, 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.360 strangely he didn't see the cops Or Danny. 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.920 Martinez if you look at the layout of the station 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.360 and where the air pump, Was Carlos luna would have 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.360 had to look straight Through martinez Car Danny martinez described 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.320 seeing somebody come out of the store with his coat 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.680 zipped all the way, up backing out of the store 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.240 like he was leaning into the door with his hands 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.000 in his, pocket And Carlos luna described someone coming out fay, 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.320 forward opening the door with his left, hand wearing a 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.040 coat all the way down to his. Ankles just the 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.360 way this person exited the building tells you that they 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.200 did not see the same, person. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.120 So luna must have been looking out of his window 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.400 at a different. Time and then there's an alleged third eye, 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.600 Witness Gerardo, gutierrez who claimed that he had put three 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.000 dollars worth of gas in his. Car now remember this 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:04.840 was nineteen ninety. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.200 One he's the person who says that he had gone 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.440 into the store and paid for his, gas and that 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.560 there was Attendant Bill little and somebody else who looked 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:15.800 shifty or. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.640 Something he described a one inch scar on his chin 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.680 that was so fresh you could still see the holes 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.800 from the, stitches and he had an ear ring in his, 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.320 ear AND i don't have a scar on my chin 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:29.360 or earring in my. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.680 Ear gutierrez added that the man was six foot two 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.120 with shoulder length blonde or brown, hair wore a motorcycle, 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.240 jacket and lit up a cigarette in the. Office, again 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.880 it was nineteen ninety, one and he said that after, 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.360 paying he went home and returned when he heard about the. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.120 Shooting so it appears that all three witnesses made differing 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.120 observations at what had to have been different. Times either, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:54.400 way they were brought in to make. 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.200 STATEMENTS a police department sketch artist met with the three. 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.160 Witnesses the sketch artists said that he spoke To luna 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:04.760 and that there just wasn't enough information there to even 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.679 make a. Sketch the composite sketch was based on descriptions 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.480 provided By martinez And, gutierrez. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:16.480 Who described different, heights different. Coats neither of them mentioned a. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.440 Cast martinez said there was a ball, Cap gutieri said long, 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:22.960 hair a fresh, scar and an. Earring and likely since 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.520 the first responders didn't see Who martinez allegedly, saw they 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:31.360 chose The gutierrez composite to publicize along with a, reward 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.240 and we know how that can. Go, meanwhile both were 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:34.920 showing books of. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.199 Mugshots well the night of the, Crime martinez picked out 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.560 two guys and there were people that he. Knew one 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.120 of them was the same guy That gutierras had picked. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.079 Out and what we didn't, know and we just found 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.080 out when they turned over these thousands and thousands of 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.000 pages of documents that they was held from us for twenty, 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.880 years was that the dude that they had picked out 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.160 was a suspect in an earlier robbery a month earlier 0:09:59.200 --> 0:09:59.600 at the same. 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.319 Cast that Was Charles. Renfrold the other guy Was steve 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.920 Van note and who knows why they were cleared or 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.280 if either of these witnesses had seen the actual. Assailant, 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.440 meanwhile a kid Named Randy howard was seeking the reward 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.400 money related to The february eighteenth armed, robbery and he Named, 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:17.800 jamie who was then. 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.839 Arrested when they came to pick me, up one of 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.000 the detectors walked up and he looked at my, chin 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.400 looked at my ears or to See i've had a 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:26.360 scar on my chin. 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.839 Or ear brings in my, ear which he did. Not 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.480 and While jamie was questioned about This february eighteenth robbery 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:34.640 that he also had nothing to do, with they began 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.559 asking About march thirty, first nineteen ninety, one. 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.760 The night that had. Happened it Was Easter, sunday spent 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.560 the day with her family when the crime, happened though 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.840 at eight o'clock at, night we were sitting in the. 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.080 House worst place in the world you can ever be 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.839 is in the safety and security of your own. Home 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.080 if someone wants to try to put a case on. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.000 You so they asked him to appear in a. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.040 Lineup originally it had agreed to stand in the lineup 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.800 in my attorney at the time came to me and was, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:05.120 like the prisons are full of guys that have been wrongfully. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.800 Identified and he, said my, advice you just don't do. 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:09.880 It AND i WISH i would have just did, it 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.760 because the fact THAT i didn't want to do it 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:14.880 was something that they used against me WHEN i went to. 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.800 Trial so, meanwhile in addition to the publicized, reward there's 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.679 the unspoken one among those facing their own. Charges and 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.400 one of the first false statements may have stemmed from 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.520 an encounter Between jamie and a guy Named Ed. 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:31.000 PALOMBO i knew that him and this other guy had 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.720 been out to an armed robbery and he had passed 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.520 me on the. Street you, KNOW i was just being 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.520 smart about, it you, KNOW i was just, like you, 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.840 KNOW i read about in the paper to what. Happened 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.440 it wouldn't give you the, money and he gave me 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:45.439 a really weird. Look he drove. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.440 Off at this Point ed's, Girlfriend shannon was in the 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.320 passenger seat and initially came. Forward at the end Of 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.960 april nineteen ninety, one perhaps to cash in on the 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.040 reward while helping Out ed with some unrelated armed robbery. Charges, 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.480 together they flipped the narrative of this drive by, encounter 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:02.440 With jamie. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.720 That he had passed me on the street and THAT 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:08.800 i had told him did you read about me in the? 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.320 Paper the gun went off or something and he died 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.280 from along the. LINE i think that he was trying 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:16.679 to get out of the trouble that he was. In 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:18.800 he was able to get the cocharg TO. 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.880 VIP ed had also Named jamie in four other, robberies 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.880 including the one to Which ed had, confessed and maybe 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.720 to try to corroborate this highly motivated, Witness jamie was 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.280 again asked to stand for a live, lineup and he 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.679 finally agreed In may nineteen ninety. One, strangely, though they 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.600 called In Carlos, luna who couldn't even describe the assailant 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:41.400 to the sketch. 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.480 Artist When luna viewed the, lineup he said that he 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.480 tried to imagine each of these people doing, it and 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.880 that he tried to find the person who looked closest to, 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:51.720 it and that there were a few who might have 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.120 been the person that he says he. Saw he's later 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.840 given an affidavit saying that he assumed that the police 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.080 had the guy and put him in the, lineup and 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.680 so he believed his job was to pick out the 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.160 person from the menu of options who'd best fit what he, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.240 remembered which he based on what he said was the 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.120 shape Of jamie's face and the shape of his. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.200 Hair and they knew from the distance To luna's house 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.880 from the gas station that this was not a reliable. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:24.079 Id they needed Good tiers Or, martinez both of whom 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:29.200 had already passed Over jamie in photo arrays and the live. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.280 Lineup AFTER i did his lineup and my lawyer came 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.360 in there and, said, okay, man you're. GOOD i thought 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.480 that was. IT i turned the page on, it, man 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.040 AND i forgot all about. It my in laws were 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.760 moving To. Florida they had friends that lived down. There 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.079 so and that was in ninety one when we first 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:45.560 moved down. 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.320 There as the investigation plotted, on witnesses with ulterior motives 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.840 continuously came, forward like a guy Named Steve, shiel who 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.680 in nineteen ninety one was looking for reward, money and 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.160 he said That jamie had confessed to a woman Named Molly, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:03.120 feaster and Then shield was arrested on unrelated charges and 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.720 Said jamie had confessed to him while at a party 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.680 At Molly feaster's, house who they tracked down in nineteen ninety. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.120 Three she originally, SAID i haven't Seen jamie in five 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.560 to six seven years or something like, that you, Know 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:18.400 and this was in like ninety, three so it would 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.400 have put it way before ninety. One and she's, LIKE 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.120 i don't even know if i'd recognize him IF i 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:24.119 saw him, again. 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:30.280 So that thereby Discredited shiel for. Now, Meanwhile gutierres had 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.400 always said that he bought three dollars worth of gas 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.120 around eight, pm but the only three dollars purchase in 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.120 the register was at six fifty FIVE. Pm but when, 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.920 Confronted gutierrez changed his. Story he said that after seeing 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.000 the person and paying for gas at six fifty five, 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.880 pm he met with a friend and then stopped in 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:48.760 again when he saw the cop cars at the gas 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.440 station on his way. Home so two years into this, 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.640 saga his composite was scrapped and they switched to The 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.320 martinez composite with the ball, cap which described an assailant 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.880 that the first responders should have, seen but simply did. 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.000 Not and he have said something, like AS i was 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.320 pulling in the, LOT i saw somebody coming. Out that 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.200 would have. Flew but for him to say that while 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.160 he was down putting air in his tires he saw 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.000 someone coming out of the gas, station that doesn't, fly 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.320 because at that point you've Got Paul williams watching the, 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.120 door and you've Got Jeff peeble Watching Danny. Martinez that 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:23.560 couldn't have. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.920 Happened so in nineteen ninety, three this new fraudulent composite 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.480 was floating around And jamie came back To illinois From 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.840 florida when he was approached again by Lead Detective Charlie. 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.760 CROWE i had a traffic ticket one day AND i 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.280 came out The law And Justice center In bloommeton And 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.480 charlie crow was standing there waiting for, me and he's, like, 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.240 man can we go and sit down and? Talk and 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.720 me and him said at a picnic table for a good. 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.240 Hour he's, like, well why would people say that you 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:49.960 know you visit or that you know who did it or? 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:51.000 Whatever And i'm, like where are they? 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:51.080 At? 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.000 Man are they in? Jail and he, said, yeah you, 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:54.400 know some of them are in. JAIL i said that 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.320 answers the question right. There and he was just, like 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.840 why don't you take this polygraph so we can ruin you, 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:00.600 in going to rule you. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.880 Out now we know how polygraphs can be unreliable and, 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.160 misused But jamie was desperate to prove his. 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.960 Innocence WHEN i passed the, POLYGRAPH i, said now do 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.400 you believe? Me he, Said i've never thought that he did. 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:13.920 IT i just think you might know who did. It 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.320 AND i, said, man IF i knew who did, IT 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.400 i promise YOU i would tell you THEN i WOULD 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.440 i wouldn't be doing life for somebody. ELSE i can 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:42.000 promise you. That the ninety four we ended up moving 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.000 back To florida AND i was doing tree. WORK i 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:46.920 had a plan AND i was going to build the 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.240 best tree service In Canola's. COUNTY i was living my 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.240 best life ever down. THERE i couldn't believe THAT i 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.000 could make so much money AS i was. Making life 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:57.280 was really, good he really. 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:01.000 Was and that's how it went for three long years 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.040 With Charlie crowe at The, helm but his Underlings Dan 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.440 katz And Rick barkas were out trying to Save gutierrez 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.480 as a willing, eyewitness and they found a man facing 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.600 his fourth or FIFTH dui Named Bruce, rowland who had 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.240 never Met, jamie but said That jamie had confessed to, 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.320 him saying that he had been at the gas station 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.639 twice that, night the first time just before seven, pm 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.760 on his way to a party hosted by a guy 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:24.439 Named Brian. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.880 Whitmer bruce, SAID i recently went there to get some, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.600 cigarettes but THAT i didn't have any, money SO i 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.879 left and went down to The whitmer house to a, 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.800 party and THEN i went back to get some, CIGARETTES i, 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:40.960 guess and that's WHEN i committed the. Crime and he 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.159 said THAT i told HIM i got a couple of 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.639 carts of cigarettes and there were no cigarettes. Missing but you, 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.680 know the Whole Bruce rowland. Thing had they have done 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.640 their due diligence before they tried to Get Bruce roland 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.919 to create this story to cooperate, gutierres they would realize 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.439 That Brian whitmer was in jail that, night was no 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:01.920 party down the, street. 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.439 Not to mention That jamie And brian had a falling 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.720 out in nineteen eighty, eight and then to add doubt 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:12.480 to an already dubious. Statement roland created a getaway driver 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.720 out of thin. Air, remember no one had ever mentioned 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.720 a getaway driver. Before and this alleged getaway driver was 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.879 none other Than jamie's Friend mark, McGowan, who by the, 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.680 way denied, it as did his Girlfriend. Karen and get, 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:27.679 This mark didn't even have a. 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.919 Car bruched the first one to Put mark's name into, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.760 it and then other people start putting his name into. 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:38.439 It it's just like this rumor was going around town for, six, seven, 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.600 eight nine years man and it morphed into what it. 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.399 Was But Charlie crowd never bought. It so when he 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.680 retired In june nineteen ninety, Seven marcus And katz went 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.040 back to The roland, narrative but Since mark McGowan wouldn't, 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.879 flip they replaced him With jamie's sister in, Law Susan. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.520 Claycombe at the, time my wife when she told me 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.800 that they had Pulled Michael defending over In tennessee and 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.000 had given her a subpoena to the grand jury because 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.040 they think she was the one that was driving the. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.160 Car you, know we both laughed BECAUSE i don't think 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.639 anybody would allow her to drive him somewhere unless it 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.240 was like a kid and they had no. Choice but 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.520 if you were an, adult you were not Let susan 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:16.919 drive you. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.679 Anywhere but they'd found a friend of hers, Name Julie, 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.840 knight who had a substance abuse issue and had lost 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.720 custody of her, kids and she had agreed to cooperate 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.840 in a number of, cases including this, one to get 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.600 them back And john to add more insult to, Injury 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:34.639 susan was pregnant at the. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.359 Time it smells to me like it's a very, awkward 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.960 misguided effort by the police to find some other way 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.000 to put pressure On. Jamie and we'll put pressure on. 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.520 Her she's expecting a. Child all these factors go into, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.480 it and if it, works he's. Dead he's, Nailed. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.399 Okay at this, Point susan And jamie were arrested And 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.280 susan Clay comb's defense, Investigator Martin, foster visited the, witnesses 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.520 Including Dani, martinez who told him that he'd Seen jamie's 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.639 picture in the paper and that he was not the. 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.080 Assailant so the prosecutor's office went to meet with this 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.160 defense witness as well as to Offer susan a deal 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:13.040 which she courageously. 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.879 Refused they offered her, probation they told her that they 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.400 to charge it against. HER i mean they pressured her 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.000