1
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,000
Speaker 1: It was eight pm on Easter Sunday nineteen ninety one

2
00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,520
Speaker 1: when a Bloomington, Illinois gas station was held up and

3
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,840
Speaker 1: the eighteen year old attendant, Bill Little, was fatally shot.

4
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: The police made a composite sketch and questioned men in

5
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 1: town with criminal records, including twenty five year old Jamie Snow,

6
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,720
Speaker 1: but neither the physical evidence nor the composite sketch were

7
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 1: a match. Anyway, They approached Jamie again two years later

8
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: and he was cleared by a polygraph. Then five years

9
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,720
Speaker 1: after that, almost eight years after the crime had taken place,

10
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: two new detectives developed the theory involving Jamie Snow's then

11
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:48,279
Speaker 1: pregnant sister in law driving a getaway car. Rather than

12
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 1: take a sweetheart deal to trade false testimony for freedom,

13
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 1: she instead took a Sophie's choice and opted to give

14
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 1: birth to her baby in jail and rolled it down

15
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 1: on a trial that could have resulted in her spending

16
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 1: the rest of her life in prison. All of this

17
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: instead of agreeing to lie on the stand. Luckily, her

18
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,959
Speaker 1: attorney was able to expose the state's case for what

19
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 1: it was and she was acquitted, While Jamie was not

20
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:28,120
Speaker 1: as fortunate. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.

21
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,520
Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for

22
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,199
Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing

23
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back

24
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,360
Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got a case out of

25
00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 1: Illinois that features numerous jailhouse niches and incentivized witnesses who

26
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: are either coerced or threatened, whose testimonies have all either

27
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 1: since been recanted or been proven to be false. We've

28
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,680
Speaker 1: got police testimony that refutes the state star witness. There

29
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 1: was a ton of physical evidence in this case, but

30
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,800
Speaker 1: none of it matched the suspect. Jamie Snow our guest

31
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 1: today who's calling in from an Illinois correction institution where

32
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 1: he's been for almost a quarter of a century, and

33
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:19,480
Speaker 1: welcome to Ronful Conviction. All.

34
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 2: I appreciate you guys given me a voice and joining him.

35
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 1: One of his appellat attorneys from the Exoneration Project, Carl Leonard,

36
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,680
Speaker 1: welcome back. Thanks for having me and to help us

37
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,920
Speaker 1: tell this story. Today we have my friend, a legend

38
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 1: in the innocence community. Sorry if I embarrass you. John,

39
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,239
Speaker 1: a guy who's written a few books in his life,

40
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,320
Speaker 1: including the most recent one, his second non fiction book, Framed,

41
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 1: number one of the bestseller lists, which profiles numerous cases

42
00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 1: of people who were framed and who were actually innocent.

43
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,800
Speaker 1: John is on the board of Centurion Ministries as well

44
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: as the Innocence Project. And without further ado, John Grisham,

45
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 1: Welcome to Ronful Conviction.

46
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,680
Speaker 3: Happy to be here. Jason. This case, You've got terrible

47
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 3: police misconduct and took them eight years to make an arrest.

48
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 3: You've got misconduct by the prosecutors, judges who are asleep,

49
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,080
Speaker 3: You've got jurors who are easily convinced. You've got a

50
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 3: very innocent man who's now spent twenty four years in prison,

51
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,960
Speaker 3: and you've got a murder that will never be solved

52
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:16,400
Speaker 3: because the cops screwed up the case.

53
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 1: But let's go back to before this case began, to

54
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 1: Jamie's childhood in Bloomington, Illinois.

55
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in Bloomington. I had a pretty

56
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 2: decent childhood, went to a Christian school up to about

57
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,400
Speaker 2: seventh grade. My mom and dad were divorced, so they

58
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,960
Speaker 2: had a really good step dad. I never gave him

59
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,520
Speaker 2: the credit he deserved. Until I had already grown up

60
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 2: and had kids of my own, and then I recognized

61
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,240
Speaker 2: the sacrifice that he had been making for me and

62
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 2: my sister. But my mom developed cancer and died by

63
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,839
Speaker 2: the time I was seventeen, and that drew me off

64
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,920
Speaker 2: into a dark path. I guess, you know, I was

65
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 2: acting out, doing a lot of dumb shit, eddy thefts

66
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. You know, I started running around

67
00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 2: with the wrong people. I mean, I never had any

68
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 2: violence in my history, but it was the juvenile delinquent.

69
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 1: Despite that pass, Jamie soon turned his energies toward fatherhood

70
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 1: and had taxed kids with his wife, Tammy.

71
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 2: My dad also died by the time I was twenty one,

72
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,200
Speaker 2: so I feel like I was plugging all them holes

73
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,200
Speaker 2: in my heart with my kids. You know, if I

74
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,200
Speaker 2: hadn't gotten arrested when I did, I'd have probably had

75
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 2: a baseball team.

76
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 1: And speaking of arrest, Jamie nearly got dragged into a

77
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: different case just before this one, a February nineteen ninety

78
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,280
Speaker 1: one arm robbery that his friend had committed while they

79
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,039
Speaker 1: were out together with a larger group.

80
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,440
Speaker 2: Everybody that was in the car of the night that

81
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,240
Speaker 2: he did. Nobody knew what he was doing. It was

82
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,359
Speaker 2: my wife's birthday, February eighteenth, ninety one. The next day

83
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,920
Speaker 2: I got the newspaper and now went over and I

84
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,320
Speaker 2: asked him tell me that this wasn't you, and he

85
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, don't worry about it. You know, which

86
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 2: you don't know won't hurt you. Obviously it can't hurt you.

87
00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,640
Speaker 2: But the guy fled guilty to it and testified to

88
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,560
Speaker 2: the grand jury that he didn't give you the money

89
00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 2: up with anyone.

90
00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 1: And this guy was also an alternate respect for what

91
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 1: had happened on Easter Sunday, March thirty first, nineteen ninety one,

92
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,400
Speaker 1: a little after eight pm, when an eighteen year old

93
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,400
Speaker 1: gas station attendant named Bill Little tried to stop an

94
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 1: arm robbery and was fatally shot.

95
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,599
Speaker 4: Mister Little was killed while he was at work. It's

96
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,279
Speaker 4: a relatively small area behind the counter of that store.

97
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,120
Speaker 4: The stool that he would sit on was knocked over.

98
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 4: There was a fair amount of blood. By all accounts,

99
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,560
Speaker 4: there was some sort of a scuffle here. The scene

100
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,200
Speaker 4: reflects that mister Little had previously said if someone tries

101
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,480
Speaker 4: to rob the store, he will fight them, and there

102
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,640
Speaker 4: were fingerprints that were recovered some of the fingerprints are

103
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 4: Bill Little's, which one would expect, and there are unknown

104
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 4: fingerprints that have never been identified at all. None of

105
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,479
Speaker 4: the fingerprints have ever been matched to Jamie. There was

106
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 4: never any physical evidence tying Jamie to this, and.

107
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,039
Speaker 1: With DNA testing in a more primitive state, they didn't

108
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,159
Speaker 1: test from multiple contributors to the crime scene, blood or

109
00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,160
Speaker 1: DNA on the bullet casings or Bill Little's close now.

110
00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,839
Speaker 1: First officers on the scene, Paul Williams and Jeff Pilow,

111
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,120
Speaker 1: were responding to a silent alarm and they saw a

112
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,200
Speaker 1: young man named Danny Martinez filling up his tires on

113
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 1: the east side of the gas station lot. Martinez later

114
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 1: claimed that when he finished with his tires, he walked

115
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 1: toward the office and saw someone backing out of the door.

116
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,359
Speaker 1: Then he heard two pops and turned back to his car,

117
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,039
Speaker 1: thinking that it backfired, and when he turned back around,

118
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,000
Speaker 1: he claimed that he found himself face to face with

119
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:27,760
Speaker 1: the assailant.

120
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,480
Speaker 4: Bloomington police officer responded to the scene was observing the

121
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 4: goings on at the store before entering, saw Danny Martinez

122
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 4: and saw Danny Martinez leaf and is absolutely certain that

123
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 4: Danny Martinez never encountered anybody leaving the store.

124
00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 1: While this officer Jeff Pilo and his partner Paul Williams,

125
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 1: said as much in the tape recorded interview, more attention

126
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,320
Speaker 1: was paid to Martinez a statement in which he described

127
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: someone wearing a zipped up waistlength coat and a ball cap,

128
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,480
Speaker 1: standing five foot seven. I'll remember Jamie six' to one

129
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 1: was also wearing a cast on his arm at the,

130
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 1: time and none of the eyewitnesses mentioned a, cast including

131
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,360
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old, Neighbor Carlos, luna who lived about

132
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 1: two hundred feet down the street to the, east who

133
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 1: had claimed to have seen the assailant leaving the, scene but,

134
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 1: strangely he didn't see the cops Or Danny.

135
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 2: Martinez if you look at the layout of the station

136
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 2: and where the air pump, Was Carlos luna would have

137
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 2: had to look straight Through martinez Car Danny martinez described

138
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 2: seeing somebody come out of the store with his coat

139
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 2: zipped all the way, up backing out of the store

140
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 2: like he was leaning into the door with his hands

141
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,000
Speaker 2: in his, pocket And Carlos luna described someone coming out fay,

142
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 2: forward opening the door with his left, hand wearing a

143
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 2: coat all the way down to his. Ankles just the

144
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 2: way this person exited the building tells you that they

145
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,200
Speaker 2: did not see the same, person.

146
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,120
Speaker 1: So luna must have been looking out of his window

147
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: at a different. Time and then there's an alleged third eye,

148
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,600
Speaker 1: Witness Gerardo, gutierrez who claimed that he had put three

149
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: dollars worth of gas in his. Car now remember this

150
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety.

151
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,200
Speaker 4: One he's the person who says that he had gone

152
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 4: into the store and paid for his, gas and that

153
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,560
Speaker 4: there was Attendant Bill little and somebody else who looked

154
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 4: shifty or.

155
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 2: Something he described a one inch scar on his chin

156
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 2: that was so fresh you could still see the holes

157
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 2: from the, stitches and he had an ear ring in his,

158
00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 2: ear AND i don't have a scar on my chin

159
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:29,360
Speaker 2: or earring in my.

160
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,680
Speaker 1: Ear gutierrez added that the man was six foot two

161
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: with shoulder length blonde or brown, hair wore a motorcycle,

162
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 1: jacket and lit up a cigarette in the. Office, again

163
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: it was nineteen ninety, one and he said that after,

164
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,360
Speaker 1: paying he went home and returned when he heard about the.

165
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,120
Speaker 1: Shooting so it appears that all three witnesses made differing

166
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 1: observations at what had to have been different. Times either,

167
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: way they were brought in to make.

168
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,200
Speaker 4: STATEMENTS a police department sketch artist met with the three.

169
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 4: Witnesses the sketch artists said that he spoke To luna

170
00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 4: and that there just wasn't enough information there to even

171
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,679
Speaker 4: make a. Sketch the composite sketch was based on descriptions

172
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 4: provided By martinez And, gutierrez.

173
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,480
Speaker 1: Who described different, heights different. Coats neither of them mentioned a.

174
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,440
Speaker 1: Cast martinez said there was a ball, Cap gutieri said long,

175
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 1: hair a fresh, scar and an. Earring and likely since

176
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,520
Speaker 1: the first responders didn't see Who martinez allegedly, saw they

177
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,360
Speaker 1: chose The gutierrez composite to publicize along with a, reward

178
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,240
Speaker 1: and we know how that can. Go, meanwhile both were

179
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:34,920
Speaker 1: showing books of.

180
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,199
Speaker 2: Mugshots well the night of the, Crime martinez picked out

181
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,560
Speaker 2: two guys and there were people that he. Knew one

182
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 2: of them was the same guy That gutierras had picked.

183
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,079
Speaker 2: Out and what we didn't, know and we just found

184
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,080
Speaker 2: out when they turned over these thousands and thousands of

185
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 2: pages of documents that they was held from us for twenty,

186
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 2: years was that the dude that they had picked out

187
00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 2: was a suspect in an earlier robbery a month earlier

188
00:09:59,200 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 2: at the same.

189
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,319
Speaker 1: Cast that Was Charles. Renfrold the other guy Was steve

190
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,920
Speaker 1: Van note and who knows why they were cleared or

191
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,280
Speaker 1: if either of these witnesses had seen the actual. Assailant,

192
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,440
Speaker 1: meanwhile a kid Named Randy howard was seeking the reward

193
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,400
Speaker 1: money related to The february eighteenth armed, robbery and he Named,

194
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:17,800
Speaker 1: jamie who was then.

195
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,839
Speaker 2: Arrested when they came to pick me, up one of

196
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,000
Speaker 2: the detectors walked up and he looked at my, chin

197
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,400
Speaker 2: looked at my ears or to See i've had a

198
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 2: scar on my chin.

199
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,839
Speaker 1: Or ear brings in my, ear which he did. Not

200
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 1: and While jamie was questioned about This february eighteenth robbery

201
00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 1: that he also had nothing to do, with they began

202
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,559
Speaker 1: asking About march thirty, first nineteen ninety, one.

203
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 2: The night that had. Happened it Was Easter, sunday spent

204
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,560
Speaker 2: the day with her family when the crime, happened though

205
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 2: at eight o'clock at, night we were sitting in the.

206
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 2: House worst place in the world you can ever be

207
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,839
Speaker 2: is in the safety and security of your own. Home

208
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,080
Speaker 2: if someone wants to try to put a case on.

209
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,000
Speaker 1: You so they asked him to appear in a.

210
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 2: Lineup originally it had agreed to stand in the lineup

211
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,800
Speaker 2: in my attorney at the time came to me and was,

212
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 2: like the prisons are full of guys that have been wrongfully.

213
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,800
Speaker 2: Identified and he, said my, advice you just don't do.

214
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 2: It AND i WISH i would have just did, it

215
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 2: because the fact THAT i didn't want to do it

216
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 2: was something that they used against me WHEN i went to.

217
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,800
Speaker 1: Trial so, meanwhile in addition to the publicized, reward there's

218
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,679
Speaker 1: the unspoken one among those facing their own. Charges and

219
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 1: one of the first false statements may have stemmed from

220
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,520
Speaker 1: an encounter Between jamie and a guy Named Ed.

221
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 2: PALOMBO i knew that him and this other guy had

222
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 2: been out to an armed robbery and he had passed

223
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,520
Speaker 2: me on the. Street you, KNOW i was just being

224
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 2: smart about, it you, KNOW i was just, like you,

225
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 2: KNOW i read about in the paper to what. Happened

226
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,440
Speaker 2: it wouldn't give you the, money and he gave me

227
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,439
Speaker 2: a really weird. Look he drove.

228
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 1: Off at this Point ed's, Girlfriend shannon was in the

229
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,320
Speaker 1: passenger seat and initially came. Forward at the end Of

230
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 1: april nineteen ninety, one perhaps to cash in on the

231
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: reward while helping Out ed with some unrelated armed robbery. Charges,

232
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 1: together they flipped the narrative of this drive by, encounter

233
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 1: With jamie.

234
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 2: That he had passed me on the street and THAT

235
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 2: i had told him did you read about me in the?

236
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,320
Speaker 2: Paper the gun went off or something and he died

237
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 2: from along the. LINE i think that he was trying

238
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:16,679
Speaker 2: to get out of the trouble that he was. In

239
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,800
Speaker 2: he was able to get the cocharg TO.

240
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: VIP ed had also Named jamie in four other, robberies

241
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,880
Speaker 1: including the one to Which ed had, confessed and maybe

242
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 1: to try to corroborate this highly motivated, Witness jamie was

243
00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 1: again asked to stand for a live, lineup and he

244
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,679
Speaker 1: finally agreed In may nineteen ninety. One, strangely, though they

245
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,600
Speaker 1: called In Carlos, luna who couldn't even describe the assailant

246
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 1: to the sketch.

247
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 4: Artist When luna viewed the, lineup he said that he

248
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,480
Speaker 4: tried to imagine each of these people doing, it and

249
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,880
Speaker 4: that he tried to find the person who looked closest to,

250
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 4: it and that there were a few who might have

251
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 4: been the person that he says he. Saw he's later

252
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 4: given an affidavit saying that he assumed that the police

253
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,080
Speaker 4: had the guy and put him in the, lineup and

254
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,680
Speaker 4: so he believed his job was to pick out the

255
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,160
Speaker 4: person from the menu of options who'd best fit what he,

256
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,240
Speaker 4: remembered which he based on what he said was the

257
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 4: shape Of jamie's face and the shape of his.

258
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,200
Speaker 1: Hair and they knew from the distance To luna's house

259
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 1: from the gas station that this was not a reliable.

260
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,079
Speaker 1: Id they needed Good tiers Or, martinez both of whom

261
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,200
Speaker 1: had already passed Over jamie in photo arrays and the live.

262
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,280
Speaker 2: Lineup AFTER i did his lineup and my lawyer came

263
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 2: in there and, said, okay, man you're. GOOD i thought

264
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,480
Speaker 2: that was. IT i turned the page on, it, man

265
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 2: AND i forgot all about. It my in laws were

266
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 2: moving To. Florida they had friends that lived down. There

267
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,079
Speaker 2: so and that was in ninety one when we first

268
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:45,560
Speaker 2: moved down.

269
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,320
Speaker 1: There as the investigation plotted, on witnesses with ulterior motives

270
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 1: continuously came, forward like a guy Named Steve, shiel who

271
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,680
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one was looking for reward, money and

272
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: he said That jamie had confessed to a woman Named Molly,

273
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: feaster and Then shield was arrested on unrelated charges and

274
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 1: Said jamie had confessed to him while at a party

275
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,680
Speaker 1: At Molly feaster's, house who they tracked down in nineteen ninety.

276
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 2: Three she originally, SAID i haven't Seen jamie in five

277
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,560
Speaker 2: to six seven years or something like, that you, Know

278
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 2: and this was in like ninety, three so it would

279
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 2: have put it way before ninety. One and she's, LIKE

280
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 2: i don't even know if i'd recognize him IF i

281
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,119
Speaker 2: saw him, again.

282
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 1: So that thereby Discredited shiel for. Now, Meanwhile gutierres had

283
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,400
Speaker 1: always said that he bought three dollars worth of gas

284
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,120
Speaker 1: around eight, pm but the only three dollars purchase in

285
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 1: the register was at six fifty FIVE. Pm but when,

286
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,920
Speaker 1: Confronted gutierrez changed his. Story he said that after seeing

287
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 1: the person and paying for gas at six fifty five,

288
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: pm he met with a friend and then stopped in

289
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: again when he saw the cop cars at the gas

290
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: station on his way. Home so two years into this,

291
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,640
Speaker 1: saga his composite was scrapped and they switched to The

292
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 1: martinez composite with the ball, cap which described an assailant

293
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 1: that the first responders should have, seen but simply did.

294
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,000
Speaker 2: Not and he have said something, like AS i was

295
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 2: pulling in the, LOT i saw somebody coming. Out that

296
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 2: would have. Flew but for him to say that while

297
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 2: he was down putting air in his tires he saw

298
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 2: someone coming out of the gas, station that doesn't, fly

299
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,320
Speaker 2: because at that point you've Got Paul williams watching the,

300
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 2: door and you've Got Jeff peeble Watching Danny. Martinez that

301
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 2: couldn't have.

302
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 1: Happened so in nineteen ninety, three this new fraudulent composite

303
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 1: was floating around And jamie came back To illinois From

304
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,840
Speaker 1: florida when he was approached again by Lead Detective Charlie.

305
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 2: CROWE i had a traffic ticket one day AND i

306
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,280
Speaker 2: came out The law And Justice center In bloommeton And

307
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 2: charlie crow was standing there waiting for, me and he's, like,

308
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 2: man can we go and sit down and? Talk and

309
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 2: me and him said at a picnic table for a good.

310
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,240
Speaker 2: Hour he's, like, well why would people say that you

311
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:49,960
Speaker 2: know you visit or that you know who did it or?

312
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 2: Whatever And i'm, like where are they?

313
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:51,080
Speaker 4: At?

314
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 2: Man are they in? Jail and he, said, yeah you,

315
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 2: know some of them are in. JAIL i said that

316
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 2: answers the question right. There and he was just, like

317
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,840
Speaker 2: why don't you take this polygraph so we can ruin you,

318
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 2: in going to rule you.

319
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 1: Out now we know how polygraphs can be unreliable and,

320
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: misused But jamie was desperate to prove his.

321
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,960
Speaker 2: Innocence WHEN i passed the, POLYGRAPH i, said now do

322
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 2: you believe? Me he, Said i've never thought that he did.

323
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 2: IT i just think you might know who did. It

324
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 2: AND i, said, man IF i knew who did, IT

325
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 2: i promise YOU i would tell you THEN i WOULD

326
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 2: i wouldn't be doing life for somebody. ELSE i can

327
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 2: promise you. That the ninety four we ended up moving

328
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 2: back To florida AND i was doing tree. WORK i

329
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 2: had a plan AND i was going to build the

330
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 2: best tree service In Canola's. COUNTY i was living my

331
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 2: best life ever down. THERE i couldn't believe THAT i

332
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 2: could make so much money AS i was. Making life

333
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 2: was really, good he really.

334
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 1: Was and that's how it went for three long years

335
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 1: With Charlie crowe at The, helm but his Underlings Dan

336
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,440
Speaker 1: katz And Rick barkas were out trying to Save gutierrez

337
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 1: as a willing, eyewitness and they found a man facing

338
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 1: his fourth or FIFTH dui Named Bruce, rowland who had

339
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 1: never Met, jamie but said That jamie had confessed to,

340
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 1: him saying that he had been at the gas station

341
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,639
Speaker 1: twice that, night the first time just before seven, pm

342
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 1: on his way to a party hosted by a guy

343
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:24,439
Speaker 1: Named Brian.

344
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,880
Speaker 2: Whitmer bruce, SAID i recently went there to get some,

345
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 2: cigarettes but THAT i didn't have any, money SO i

346
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,879
Speaker 2: left and went down to The whitmer house to a,

347
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 2: party and THEN i went back to get some, CIGARETTES i,

348
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 2: guess and that's WHEN i committed the. Crime and he

349
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,159
Speaker 2: said THAT i told HIM i got a couple of

350
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,639
Speaker 2: carts of cigarettes and there were no cigarettes. Missing but you,

351
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,680
Speaker 2: know the Whole Bruce rowland. Thing had they have done

352
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,640
Speaker 2: their due diligence before they tried to Get Bruce roland

353
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,919
Speaker 2: to create this story to cooperate, gutierres they would realize

354
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,439
Speaker 2: That Brian whitmer was in jail that, night was no

355
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:01,920
Speaker 2: party down the, street.

356
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 1: Not to mention That jamie And brian had a falling

357
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 1: out in nineteen eighty, eight and then to add doubt

358
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 1: to an already dubious. Statement roland created a getaway driver

359
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 1: out of thin. Air, remember no one had ever mentioned

360
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: a getaway driver. Before and this alleged getaway driver was

361
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,879
Speaker 1: none other Than jamie's Friend mark, McGowan, who by the,

362
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 1: way denied, it as did his Girlfriend. Karen and get,

363
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,679
Speaker 1: This mark didn't even have a.

364
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,919
Speaker 2: Car bruched the first one to Put mark's name into,

365
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 2: it and then other people start putting his name into.

366
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,439
Speaker 2: It it's just like this rumor was going around town for, six, seven,

367
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 2: eight nine years man and it morphed into what it.

368
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 1: Was But Charlie crowd never bought. It so when he

369
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 1: retired In june nineteen ninety, Seven marcus And katz went

370
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 1: back to The roland, narrative but Since mark McGowan wouldn't,

371
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 1: flip they replaced him With jamie's sister in, Law Susan.

372
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 2: Claycombe at the, time my wife when she told me

373
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 2: that they had Pulled Michael defending over In tennessee and

374
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 2: had given her a subpoena to the grand jury because

375
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 2: they think she was the one that was driving the.

376
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,160
Speaker 2: Car you, know we both laughed BECAUSE i don't think

377
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 2: anybody would allow her to drive him somewhere unless it

378
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 2: was like a kid and they had no. Choice but

379
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: if you were an, adult you were not Let susan

380
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:16,919
Speaker 2: drive you.

381
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,679
Speaker 1: Anywhere but they'd found a friend of hers, Name Julie,

382
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 1: knight who had a substance abuse issue and had lost

383
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 1: custody of her, kids and she had agreed to cooperate

384
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: in a number of, cases including this, one to get

385
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: them back And john to add more insult to, Injury

386
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 1: susan was pregnant at the.

387
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 3: Time it smells to me like it's a very, awkward

388
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,960
Speaker 3: misguided effort by the police to find some other way

389
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 3: to put pressure On. Jamie and we'll put pressure on.

390
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 3: Her she's expecting a. Child all these factors go into,

391
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 3: it and if it, works he's. Dead he's, Nailed.

392
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 1: Okay at this, Point susan And jamie were arrested And

393
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: susan Clay comb's defense, Investigator Martin, foster visited the, witnesses

394
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: Including Dani, martinez who told him that he'd Seen jamie's

395
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 1: picture in the paper and that he was not the.

396
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: Assailant so the prosecutor's office went to meet with this

397
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,160
Speaker 1: defense witness as well as to Offer susan a deal

398
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 1: which she courageously.

399
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 2: Refused they offered her, probation they told her that they

400
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 2: to charge it against. HER i mean they pressured her

401
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 2: for a year and a half to try to get

402
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 2: her to testify AGAINST i, MEAN i wish you could

403
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 2: talk to, her, MAN i wish you could have met.

404
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 2: Her she's probably the strongest Person i've ever.

405
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: Known she's a bona fide. Hero she gave birth in

406
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 1: jail while facing her own. Trial incredible, woman all of

407
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,399
Speaker 1: this to stand up for the. Truth and may she

408
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: rest in.

409
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: Peace AND i think once they realized That susan was

410
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 2: not gonna play ball with, him that's When Danny martinez

411
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 2: all of a sudden hit his Miraculous.

412
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 4: Tiffany and now eight years, later When jamie is arrested

413
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 4: and he Sees jamie's pick sure in the, paper now

414
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 4: his memory is crystal clear that it Was. Jamie and

415
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 4: now he will never forget those. Eyes even though right

416
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,160
Speaker 4: after the fact he was not able to Identify.

417
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: JAMIE i know they Had Bill little's mom calling him

418
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 2: on the phone and stuff like that before he ever

419
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 2: made an.

420
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: Identification Before susan's, trial her, Investigator Martin, foster Revisited martinez

421
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 1: to ask why he'd completely switched his, story And martina,

422
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 1: said it's my understanding that they have a lot of

423
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: evidence against this, guy so he must be the right.

424
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 1: Guy So martinez was called to the stand At susan's.

425
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 4: Trial So Danny martinez says that he was at the

426
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 4: station filling his tires and that he heard two bangs

427
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 4: and then came face to face with somebody exiting the.

428
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 4: Store that it Was Jamie snow who did.

429
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 2: It he justified At susan's, Trial come about eighty five

430
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 2: percent sure that's the.

431
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: Guy susan's attorney put On Martin foster and some Of

432
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: Danny martinez his coworkers who said That danny had told

433
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: them That Jamie snow was not the. Assailant they also

434
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,239
Speaker 1: raised how he'd identified other people along the, way and

435
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 1: Then Bruce rowland trotted out the theory that added the

436
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: getaway driver and Made gutierres into a viable. Witness But

437
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 1: gutierres was shredded by the defense over the time. Discrepancy

438
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: and Then Julie, knight who testified at the grand jury

439
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: and got her kids, back, well she didn't testify a,

440
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: trial So susan was not ideed as a getaway, driver

441
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 1: and none of the other witnesses even supported the existence of.

442
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 4: One pilo did not see a getaway. Driver martinez did

443
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 4: not testify about a getaway driver or ever say that

444
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 4: he saw a getaway. Driver luna did not see a getaway.

445
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 4: Driver so the story that they've concocted from these really incentivized,

446
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 4: individuals none of the story matches the actual evidence or

447
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 4: the evidence that the state's own witnesses put forward as

448
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 4: to what they saw happen at the.

449
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: Scene So susan was, acquitted Giving jamie's Attorney Frank, pissel

450
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: at least a partial blueprint for success a. Trial in

451
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: two thousand and, one there was a far longer list

452
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: of jailhouse snitches and other incentivized witnesses that the detectives

453
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: had accumulated over ten, years Which john it seems like

454
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: leaning on these, witnesses these vulnerable, witnesses had to be

455
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 1: the state's.

456
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 3: Strategy when there's no physical evidence linking the defendant to the,

457
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 3: crime no, video, nothing, nothing no physical, evidence no, fingerprints no,

458
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 3: bootprints NO, dna no, bloodstains no. Nothing that's a huge

459
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 3: red flag and that's where the prosecutor should stop right

460
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 3: here at the very beginning to, say wait a, minute

461
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 3: we don't have any. Evidence and that's where a really

462
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 3: good criminal defense lawyer would tear up the prosecution's. Case

463
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 3: you've got snitches on the witness stand, lying and they're

464
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: also fun to attack when you're on cross, examination but

465
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: not so much.

466
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: Fun when there was no damn many of. Them There's Ed,

467
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: Palumbo Ed, Hammond Ronnie, Wright Steve, Shield Kevin, Shall Jody,

468
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: Winkler Bill, Moffatt Bruce, Rowland Bill, gattis And Bridget, logsdon

469
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: all of whom that they were receiving nothing for their

470
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: testimony and needed to be investigated and.

471
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 4: IMPEACHED i Think jamie had a difficult opportunity to defend

472
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 4: himself at trial for a couple of. Reasons, one he

473
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 4: had a lawyer who just did not do what a

474
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 4: defense lawyer is supposed to, do did not engage in

475
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 4: the investigation that he could have engaged, in and did

476
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 4: not Represent jamie the way that he should. Have but

477
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 4: also whose hands were in some ways tied by the

478
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 4: fact that the state withheld a ton of evidence from.

479
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 4: Him so you had an ineffective lawyer with an insufficient

480
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 4: amount of evidence that should have been disclosed to.

481
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: Him and we'll start with a witness who had available impeachment,

482
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: Evidence Randy, howard who initially stated that a few days

483
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: after the crime that he had Called jamie for a

484
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: ride And jamie. Confessed, now, One jamie didn't have a

485
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: car or a phone at the, time and, Two randy

486
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: was an habitual reward seeking tipster, who for five hundred

487
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: dollars a week after this alleged, confession Misidentified jamie in

488
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: The february eighteenth, robbery yet failed to cash in on

489
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: what he allegedly knew about The march thirty first. Robbery

490
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: it's highly Unlikely howard also threw in a tidbit That

491
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: jamie would tuck his hair under a ball cap to disguise, himself.

492
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: Which you know fits the composite. Drawing you know the

493
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: guy was wearing a ball, cap.

494
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: But when presented with his statement on the, Stand howard

495
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't commit to. It so even though his impeachment evidence was,

496
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: available it wasn't raised next At. Palombo as we mentioned

497
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: back in ninety, one he and his Girlfriend shannon twisted

498
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: a real encounter With jamie into an alleged, confession And

499
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: ed got some charges of his own. Dismissed. Well as trial,

500
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: approached the girlfriend recanted and they Revisited, ed who was

501
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: locked up for something, else and those old charges resurfaced

502
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: he was in.

503
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: PRISON i think they was basically, like, look, man you

504
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: gave this, statement we're going to call. You if anything

505
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: other than what you said in the, statement we're going

506
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: to charge.

507
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: You Ed palumbo has also since. Recanted and then There's Ed,

508
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 1: hammond who claimed to have done time With palombo And,

509
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: jamie not true by the, way and had also initially

510
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: identified some guy Named Troy, mays but then as trial,

511
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: approached he Named, jamie who was later revealed that he

512
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: had gotten a deal on an armed robbery in exchange

513
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: for his. Testimony next Up Steve. Schiel as we, mentioned

514
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: he'd initially said in ninety one That jamie had confessed

515
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: To Molly, feaster and, then when faced with his own

516
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: charges in ninety, three he changed. It he Said jamie

517
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: confessed to, him Not, molly at a party At Molly feaster's.

518
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: House what we know now Is shiel had taken a

519
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 4: polygraph and told the polygraph examiner That jamie never confessed to,

520
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 4: him never said he did. It this also wasn't disclosed at.

521
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: Trial of, course he testified That jamie did confess to.

522
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: Him and then Came Molly, feaster who had originally said

523
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: in ninety three that she hadn't Seen jamie since before

524
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: the crime, happened but she changed her tune on the

525
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 1: stand in two thousand and.

526
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 2: One they put her on this and to Cooperate Steve.

527
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: Shield her whole thing was just, that you, KNOW i

528
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 2: was at the. Party we've talked to her husband since

529
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: and he said there were never no parties and that

530
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: he would have never Let Steve shield in the house.

531
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: Anyway Steve shield also later, recanted saying that he'd made

532
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: this statement for leniency in ninety, three but then as

533
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: trial approached he was threatened with solitary confinement if he

534
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: didn't testify. Accordingly Ronnie wright was another witness who, recanted

535
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: saying that he'd made a statement Against jamie over at

536
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: jailhouse gambling, dispute but that wasn't known at trial. Either

537
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: and then there was two guys who Knew jamie And,

538
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: Florida Kevin shaw And Jody, winkler who had initially said

539
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: That jamie never discussed the crime with, them but, later

540
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: when faced with their own, charges they agreed to testify for. Leniency,

541
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: similarly there Was Bill moffatt who'd made a statement in

542
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: ninety five when facing aggravated battery and then again in

543
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 1: ninety eight when facing three counts of. Rape only those

544
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: deals were never. Disclosed and we've already Mentioned Bruce, rowland

545
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: who was facing his fourth or FIFTH dui and alleged

546
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: That jamie had told him about this timeline that in

547
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: turn Saved gutiera as a witness involving a six fifty

548
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: five pm cigarette run followed By Brian whitmer's supposed party

549
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: and the eight pm return to the gas station with

550
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: a getaway.

551
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: Driver roland had taken a polygraph about his story and

552
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 4: the conclusion was that he was. Lying, nevertheless he went

553
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 4: on the stand that wasn't disclosed to the.

554
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: Defense Rick rowland couldn't even identify me in court state Tourney,

555
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 2: anton you sign the, courtroom and he's looked at the

556
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: thing when he's like the ile seam and she went

557
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: over and stook right next to the. Table she got

558
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: right here at this. Table he seen sitting, here and

559
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: he looked me, like, NO i don't recognize him. Yet

560
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: this is some dude That i've known all my life

561
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: and would confess the murder to.

562
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: Him as a REPEAT dui. Offender instead of a heftier,

563
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: Sentence Bruce rowland received an even lighter sentence that ran

564
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: concurrent with the time he was already, serving and to Rebutt,

565
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: roland the defense Called Brian.

566
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: Whitmer he just testified number, one he would have never

567
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: had me to his house for a party because we weren't,

568
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: friends and that the night that the crime, Happened brian

569
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: was in.

570
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: Jail, additionally before the state had swapped In Susan klaycombe

571
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: as the getaway, Driver bruce had previously Named jamie's Friend Mark,

572
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: dowen so years earlier they Approached mark's Girlfriend Karen strong

573
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: before she married another.

574
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: Guy in her first, statement she, said you, Know mark

575
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: didn't have a, car so you, know if him And

576
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: jamie wanted to hang, out they took off walking because

577
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: they didn't have a. Ride and then she said that

578
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: sometime in nineteen ninety, ONE i came to her house

579
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: looking for a place to, stay and then when she

580
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: came to, trial she changed that up to she remembered

581
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: it was on the night of the. Crime it was

582
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: between the hours of ten and, midnight AND i saw

583
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: the front of the car and he had on a ball,

584
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: cap and that her Boyfriend mark had told, Her, yeah

585
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: he was involved in that murder at the gas. Station

586
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: we called him as a. Witness he denied it never.

587
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: Happened and she's married to some dude Named. STRONG i

588
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: know that he had some charges. Pending the day that she,

589
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: testified they dropped all the charges against her, husband.

590
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: And Karen strong wouldn't have even been involved if not

591
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: For Bruce rowland's lives about the getaway driver And roland

592
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: originally said that his information came from another, Inmate Bill,

593
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: gattis who couldn't Pick jamie out of a photo, array

594
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: but was called to the stand anyway to talk about

595
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: the time he'd walked into a room full of, men Including,

596
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: jamie who had all been crying Over jamie's involvement In

597
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: Bill little's. Death but none of those men in this

598
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: alleged group corroborated this made up and hard to believe.

599
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 4: Story, today In, illinois the state would have to prove

600
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 4: at a pre trial hearing that these witnesses were, reliable

601
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 4: and that was not required back. Then there's a good

602
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 4: reason that we do these extra steps with jailhouse informants

603
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 4: because they are notoriously. Unreliable they have reincentive to. Lie

604
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 4: and that's what happened, here.

605
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: A point that was corroborated a trial in part by

606
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: a correctional officer Named Mary Jane, burns who had Told

607
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: jamie in jail that she was being pressured to find

608
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: informants for his trial and became a defense. Witness but

609
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden made a statement that she

610
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: and three inmates Overheard jamie say that he knew who did.

611
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: It but, then despite threats and, deals when none of

612
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 1: these three corroborated her, Statement burns recanted on the. Stand

613
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: then the defense Called jamie's wife to testify about his,

614
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: alibi and in, rebuttal the state called another incentivized, Informant Bridget,

615
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: logsdon who said that she'd Overheard jamie's wife talking About

616
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: jamie's guilt in a. Bar the Deal logsdon had made

617
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: for her own charges it wasn't disclosed, either and once

618
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: Again jamie's attorney had not found the impeachment witnesses in

619
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: time to Refute logsdon's. Lie since, then anyone Who logsden

620
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: said was there has said that this never. Happened so

621
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: without all of this really important, context the jury heard

622
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: from the alleged eye, witnesses starting With Carlos luna And Gerardo.

623
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 4: Gutierrez gutierrez testified about seeing the attendant and somebody else

624
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 4: in the. Store the attendant appeared nervous and so did

625
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 4: the other, person and the situation felt very suspicious to.

626
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 4: Him Mister gutierrez never made any identification Of jamie in

627
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 4: court or previous to, court or at any, time.

628
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: And the details from the composite were also raised because

629
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: now the composite didn't contain a fresh scar on the

630
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: chin Like gutierrez had.

631
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: Described the state's attorney was trying to characterize it as

632
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: a just a. Scratch this guy just had like a,

633
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: Scratch but when you read the police, reports if it

634
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: was more than just a, scratch then Game Carlos.

635
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 4: Luna Carlos luna testified about having looked out his window

636
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 4: and seen somebody walking from the, store possibly with the

637
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: cash register trey insert where the money would.

638
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: Be luna didn't make an in court identification, either and years,

639
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: later he also recanted his nineteen ninety one live LINEUP

640
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: i D but the most consequential eyewitness was yet to

641
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: Come Danny, martinez who claimed to have seen the assailant

642
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: from one to three feet.

643
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: Away and It's susan's. Trial he, said you, Know i'm

644
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: about eighty five percent sure that's the, guy But danny

645
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: changed it To i'm one hundred percent.

646
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: Sure Danny martinez testified that he would never Forget Jamie snow's.

647
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: Eyes that's what he remembered most, clearly that the eyes

648
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 4: of the person that he encountered walking out of the

649
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 4: store Were Jamie snow's.

650
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: EYES i, Mean Frank fitzel he did Ask, danny, well these,

651
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: Eyes he'll never forget what color were? They and he's,

652
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: LIKE i don't.

653
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: Know so this is Where jamie's, Attorney Frank, pissel could

654
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: have Called Danny martinez his coworkers Or susan Clay comb's,

655
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: Investigator Martin, foster but he just fucking, didn't Which john

656
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: as a former defense, Attorney that's that's an unforgivable, sin.

657
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: Right this is a pretty extreme case because the lawyer

658
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: later went to prison for cheating an old lady out

659
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: of her. Money he was a heavy, drinker he had mental,

660
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 3: problems he was under tremendous, stress and his performance at

661
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: trial was. PATHETIC i read these trial transcripts often And

662
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: i'm just shake my. Head you look at, it and you,

663
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: say some of the lawyering here is really really.

664
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: Bad with the failure to investigate these witnesses and the

665
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: lack of information shared by the, state as well as

666
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: the failure to even present the witnesses From susan's, Trial

667
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: jamie's fate was.

668
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: Sealed, yeah the courtroom was, full and it seemed, like

669
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: all of a, sudden all the lights got like a

670
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: million times. BRIGHTER i could feel my heart, beaten AND

671
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: i could hear it beat in my, ear you. Know

672
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: but when the judge read the, verdict it was LIKE

673
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: i didn't fully comprehend what it was that he. Said

674
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: AND i leaned over To frank AND i, said what

675
00:34:51,640 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 2: did he? Say And frank, Said i'm. Sorry After i've been,

676
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: convicted the detective cats caught me in the hallway in

677
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: the county jail one day and told me that IF

678
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: i would give them this other guy that they believed

679
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: was involved in the, case IF i would give them

680
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: him that the state's attorney would agree to forty, years

681
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: which at fifty, PERCENT i would have done twenty years

682
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: in the. Now and WHAT i told him was so,

683
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: basically you want me to do to him what you

684
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: just did to. Me you want me to make some

685
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: shit up for. You he's, like, no we don't want

686
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: you to make none Une AND i, said, WELL i

687
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: don't know who did, it, MAN i didn't do. It

688
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: and the detective, said, well think about. It it's crazy

689
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,479
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i just told HIM i didn't know anything about,

690
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: it and he's, like we'll just think about.

691
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: It jamie refused and was sentenced to life without the

692
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: possibility of.

693
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: PAROLE i knew THAT i was going to go to

694
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: one of the worst prisons in the state Of. Illinois

695
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: STATE i got. Lucky they put me in a dell

696
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 2: with a good. Guy he kind of helped me get

697
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: on my. FEET i. GUESS i couldn't buy so toothpaste or.

698
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: Nothing and this guy really kind of took me under his,

699
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: WING i, guess and helped me navigate all of the

700
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: landmines that were. Around that is a good. Guy he

701
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: always claimed that he was innocent being locked. UP i,

702
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: mean he made my time a lot easier than it,

703
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 2: was SO i got, lucky.

704
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: But he was not so lucky on his direct, appeal

705
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: and as he moved on to post conviction, motions it

706
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: appears that his cellmate also knew his way around the law.

707
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: Library he helped me get my original post conviction pro

708
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: se post conviction, together and he had a life sentence

709
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: to and sure, enough, man he didn't get. Exonerated but

710
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: he had a. Choice you can go home, now take time,

711
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: served or you can keep on. Fighting and he probably

712
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: would have been, exonerated but he'd been locked up for so.

713
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: Long he just wanted to go, home and he took.

714
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 2: It AND i don't blame. Him he'd had a son

715
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: that had gotten, murdered and he had another son that

716
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: was out on the, streets and he just wanted to

717
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: get home to his, family and he struggled with. It

718
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: tomorrow's not guaranteed to, anybody but that is a good.

719
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: Guy does this good guy have a? Name Carl. Williams

720
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: our audience might Remember. Carl we're going to link his

721
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: interview in the episode, description so please check it, out

722
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: in which our guest, host a previous guest on the

723
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: show is a dear friend Of, carl's one of his

724
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: fellow legal, Eagles Patrick. PURSLEY i Know.

725
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: Patrick patrick helped me put my post conviction together as.

726
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: Well very. SMART i MEAN i stood On Patrick persley's

727
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: door four hours talking about my case and he never

728
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: tried to run me. Off he never said he was.

729
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: Busy he would sit there and he would listen to,

730
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: me that he would give me all the advice that

731
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: he could possibly and you, know he was fighting his own,

732
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: thing but He, yeah he's a good, dude, man he really.

733
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: Is there's very few, people, man That i've met Since

734
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: i've been in here THAT i will absolutely get out

735
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: and go look up IF i ever get a chance

736
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: In carl And patrick are definitely two of.

737
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: Them and we hope that reunion can one day become a,

738
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: reality and maybe it will be as a result of

739
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: some of the work that they did together In stateville

740
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: while Writing jamie's first post conviction, motion for which in

741
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: two thousand and, four they ordered the evidence that was

742
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: available to his trial counsel and found police reports with

743
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: corresponding tape recorded interviews of the two officers on the,

744
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: Scene Paul williams And Jeff, peelow and it seems that

745
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: the police reports didn't reflect an important. Reality in, addition

746
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: That jamie's attorney must have never listened to the tapes

747
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: but simply read the, reports because these two officers described

748
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: Watching Danny Martinez philip his, tires turned to walk into the,

749
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: station turned back to his, car then back to the,

750
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: station and this is the moment That martina is alleged

751
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: that he nearly bumped into the. Assailant so if that's,

752
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: true why didn't they swoop.

753
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: In this cop was standing across the street watching him

754
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 2: the whole, time and there was never anybody.

755
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: There, yeah there's actually an affidavit From Officer pelow saying

756
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: from the TIME i arrived across the street to the

757
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 4: TIME i entered the gas, station my gaze was never

758
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: off the front of the station for more than a few.

759
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 4: Seconds and he goes on to say that he's absolutely

760
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 4: positive that from the TIME i arrived to the time

761
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 4: THAT i eventually entered the gas, station no one other

762
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 4: Than Bill little was either in the gas station or

763
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 4: entered or exited the gas. STATION i had a, clear

764
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 4: unobstructed view of the gas station door and was focusing

765
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 4: on the.

766
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: Station there is no way that somebody could have came

767
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: out of that gas station and came face to face

768
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: With Danny martinez in the parking lot And Jeff peelin

769
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: Or Paul, williams the other police officer on the, scene

770
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 2: not see the guy come out of the gas. Station it's.

771
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: Impossible it couldn't have, happened and the state knew. It.

772
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: Man not only did they know it from the, officers

773
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: but also A foyer request revealed That martinez hadn't just

774
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: passed Over jamie in those early.

775
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 4: Lineups back, then the defense team knew about the non

776
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: identification at the, lineup but the fact That martinez when

777
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 4: he viewed the, lineup he affirmatively said it was Not

778
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 4: Jamie snow that was never.

779
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: Disclosed that's the thing that just is so disgusting about

780
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,959
Speaker 2: what they, did, man as they know that they put

781
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: that dude on the stands to make an identification when

782
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 2: it could not have.

783
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 4: Happened jamie subsequently files several pro says post conviction, petitions

784
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 4: all of which are, tonied and eventually The Degeneration project gets.

785
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 4: Involved around two thousand and, eight amends one of his

786
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 4: post conviction petitions and continues to try to litigate it.

787
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: And that amended petition and subsequent petitions Included Jeff peelow's,

788
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: affidavit as well as recantations from jailhouse snitches Like Steve

789
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: shield And At, palombo who had threatened with more or

790
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: worse time in prison to stick with their original. Statements

791
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 1: Ed palumbo added that the, Prosecutor Charles, raynard had told

792
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: him that they knew someone else had done, it but,

793
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: quote since they couldn't get that other, Person jamie would

794
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: have to do end, quote which is, corroborated by the,

795
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: way by the Offer jamie got From katz before. Sentencing

796
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: And Ronnie wright also.

797
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: Recanted Ronnie wright reaked out to us and was, like,

798
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: LOOK i feel bad about WHAT i did and it's

799
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: really mess up with my conscience AND i just want

800
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: to do the right. Thing we didn't even reach out to.

801
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: HIM i, mean we've been looking for, him but he

802
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: actually reached.

803
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: Out to uh right said that he had testified Against

804
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: jamie because of some jailhouse. Disagreement Carlos luna has also

805
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: recanted his live LINEUP I.

806
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: D but in, addition what we finally three boy requests

807
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: was that there was a memo a sergeant in The

808
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 2: Bloomington Police. Department Thanks Geene irving saying this isn't an.

809
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,959
Speaker 2: Identification this kid couldn't make an identification if he wanted.

810
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: To he, SAID i was there that. NIGHT i was

811
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: looking out that, window And i've seen people who were

812
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 2: running around in the parking lot AND i couldn't identify,

813
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: them and they were people THAT i.

814
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 1: Knew so that's four, recantations Plus palumbo's Girlfriend shannon before

815
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: trial And Mary Jane burns And Randy. Howard understand, well

816
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: that makes a total of.

817
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 2: Seven, well we don't have recantations for all of, them

818
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: but we have either that or we have Like Bill

819
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: moffatt was one of the, informants and we got an

820
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: affidavit from somebody that was in prison with him that

821
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: said they knocked ten years off of his sentence for.

822
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: Testifying and for those who couldn't be similarly. Discredited there

823
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: Were foyer requests which unearthed much of what was hidden

824
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: From Frank.

825
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: Pissel my Friend Ray, wilson who's a retired chief of,

826
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: police had been filing These foyer requests for, years hundreds of,

827
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: them and we come to find out that they had

828
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: actually withheld eight thousand pages of document From frank so

829
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: he didn't know a dozens of alternative suspects in police

830
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: reports and statements that could impeach the, witnesses.

831
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: And that included two failed pre trial polygraphs For Steve

832
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: shield And Bruce, roland both of whom had also hidden

833
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: their motivations for.

834
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,479
Speaker 2: Testifying Bruce rowland claimed that he wasn't doing it for any.

835
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: Deal we find these letters that are going back and

836
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: forth between him and the state, attorney and that's not

837
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: what was going. On he was definitely looking to try to.

838
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: Get a, deal and as we, mentioned he got, one

839
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: and The foyer requests revealed that he wasn't alone At,

840
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: Plumbo Steve, shield At, Hammond Kevin, Shall Jody, Winkler Bridget

841
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: Logsdon Julie. Knight they all receive. Deals who's Left Bill

842
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: gattis with the story about the fucking crying that. Guy

843
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: and in addition to running all this down over the,

844
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: years The Exoneration project has also been trying to get

845
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 1: the crime scene evidence.

846
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 4: Tested one of the pieces of testing that we're looking

847
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: for now is to run those fingerprints through the much

848
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 4: more advanced system that exists today and even THE, fbi

849
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 4: which maintains the, database suggests on their website that fingerprints

850
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 4: that were run in the past should be rerun using

851
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 4: the new. Technology and we know that there were other

852
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: suspects in this, case and we also are looking to

853
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 4: have testing done on some of the other evidence from the.

854
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 4: Scene there were bullets. Recovered we have a lab who

855
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 4: can test those bullets FOR dna to see if THE

856
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 4: dna from the person who loaded the gun is present,

857
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 4: there and that's been done in other cases. Successfully we've

858
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 4: also sought to have testing done on Mister little's. Clothing

859
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 4: there's every reason to believe that there was a physical,

860
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 4: struggle and if that's the, case the OFFENDER'S dna would

861
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 4: likely have been left behind on Mister little's clothing and

862
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 4: the blood that was recovered at the, scene which no

863
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 4: doubt Mister little's blood is, there but it could also

864
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 4: be a mixture of the assailant's blood and his, blood

865
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 4: and we'd like to have that tested to determine whether

866
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 4: it's a. Mixture at a hearing that we did, recently

867
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 4: A dna expert testified about how the testing is available to,

868
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 4: do how they would do, it how they've done it

869
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 4: successfully in the, past and it's testing that Mister snow's

870
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 4: defense team would be paying for, this there's no cost

871
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 4: to the, State so, nevertheless they've opposed. It we had

872
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 4: a hearing where we put on witnesses and the judge

873
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 4: denied the. Testing so the current status is that we're

874
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 4: on appeal from the denial of that post conviction forensic.

875
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: Testing everything that we're asking to tests forensically is exactly

876
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: what they would do right now if they didn't have

877
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: me already in, prison serve and time for the crime

878
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: in this case has just happened. Today everything that we're

879
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: asking to, do they would, do and it's only going

880
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: to do one of three. Things it's either gonna do,

881
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: nothing it's gonna include, me which it, won't or it's

882
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: gonna exclude me and it's gonna point the finger at

883
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 2: the person who was in the gas station that. Night

884
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: so it's a win win situation for the prosecutors no

885
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 2: matter what, happens it doesn't make any stip why they're

886
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: finding so hard not to do the.

887
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: Testing, WELL i know myself And John gisham are pulling For.

888
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 1: Jamie i'm Sure Carl williams And Patrick pursley are as,

889
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: well AND i hope our audience will join.

890
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 2: Us so they can go to Free zamisnow dot. Com

891
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: they can go To snowfiles dot. Net that's our. Podcast

892
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,919
Speaker 2: that's where we pretty much just lay it all. Out

893
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: they can find the truths about the. Case we got

894
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: a petition on.

895
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 3: There you can, sign go to the, website bring yourself

896
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: to speed and then lead of the, governor talk to your,

897
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 3: friends get your friends to write. Letters these guys are,

898
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 3: politicians and when the mail starts getting pretty, heavy somebody's

899
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 3: gonna notice.

900
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 4: It Jamie snow has been in prison now for decades

901
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 4: for something he didn't. Do there's never been justice done

902
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 4: in this. CASE i think somebody knows something about who

903
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 4: really did, it and any information that people have could

904
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 4: potentially be, helpful and we would definitely appreciate hearing from.

905
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 4: You our website Is exonerationproject dot org and you can

906
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 4: get in touch with us through.

907
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: That and if you got a few, bucks you're not

908
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 3: talking about big. Gifts unless you get a lot of,

909
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 3: money make a. Donation there's never enough, money and there's

910
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 3: a very direct correlation between the amount of money you

911
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 3: have to spend for exoneration cases and the number of

912
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: people you can, free and there are thousands of innocent

913
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 3: people in.

914
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: Prison well, said and we're going to have the websites

915
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: and action steps linked in the episode. Description and with

916
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: that we're going to closing, arguments where First i'm going

917
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: to Thank John, grisham the one and, only for his,

918
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: support and both of, You jamie And, carl for joining

919
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: us here. Today and Now i'm just gonna kick back

920
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: in my, chair close my eyes with my headphones, on

921
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: and listen to anything you feel is left to be.

922
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: Said let's start With, john Then, carl and Then. Jamie

923
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: you take us off into the.

924
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: SUNSET i can't really think of it that he's been

925
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 3: left un. Said there's a whole lot we could talk

926
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 3: about these cases. Forever that's WHY i wrote the, Book.

927
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: Jason these cases are so. INCREDIBLE i Wrote The Innocent

928
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: man this in two thousand and, six sort of jumped

929
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 3: into that case and researched. It and the More i've,

930
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: learned the worst Of. GOD i couldnot believe what, happened

931
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 3: and SO i wrote this book and that really took

932
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 3: me into the world of wrongful. Convictions And i'm still

933
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 3: there right now and over the years with you In New.

934
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: York at banquets and things like, that you meet some

935
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 3: of these ex, hoonareies and they're remarkable, people men who

936
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 3: have survived nightmares if the rest of us cannot begin to,

937
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 3: imagine and they come out steal in one. Piece most of.

938
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: Them they have their, dignity they have their, Pride they're

939
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: tough as. Nails they survived and they don't want to

940
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 3: talk about. It they want to do something good with

941
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 3: their remaining. Time but just you fall in love with

942
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 3: these ex. Hogneries that's Why i'm still trying to help

943
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 3: people Like jamie and still believe in the cause of

944
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 3: exonerating innocent. People but, more even more, importantly is to

945
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 3: pass laws and change procedures that will eliminate virtually all wrongful.

946
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: Convictions it can be, done if we would just do.

947
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 4: IT i Think jamie's case is a union weekly tragic,

948
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 4: one but also all too. Common AND i definitely thank

949
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 4: you and your listeners for your interest in this type

950
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 4: of injustice and all the support and trying to remedy.

951
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 4: IT i really am, appreciative and all of us, are

952
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 4: AND i Know jamie, is for the attention that you've

953
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 4: paid to his case and to so many other cases

954
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 4: where people have been wrongfully. CONVICTED i know that it's

955
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 4: been very hard For jamie and obviously very hard on his,

956
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 4: family but he is a very strong. PERSON i admire

957
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 4: him a great deal AND i look forward to one

958
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 4: day seeing him on the. Outside there's a long, ROAD i,

959
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 4: think in an uphill, battle but with support from people

960
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 4: like you and your, LISTENERS i think we'll get there for,

961
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 4: him hopefully sooner than.

962
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: Later, yeah, MAN i appreciate, You John. GRISHAM i Appreciate

963
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 2: doll giving me a, voice AND i hope that this

964
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: creates some pressure on someone as somebody who's got the

965
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: how to make a. Difference here's it and does? Something

966
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: sent me a quote a long time ago From Martin

967
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 2: Luskin junior and justice anywhere is a threat to justice.

968
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: Everywhere and that's the Truth, smith it really.

969
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: Is thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction you can

970
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: listen to this and all The lava For good podcasts

971
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing To lava

972
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: For Good plus On Apple. PODCASTS i want to thank

973
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: our production, Team Connor hall And Kathleen, fink as well

974
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: as my fellow executive Producers Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wartis And Jeff.

975
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: Kleiber the music in this production was supplied by three

976
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 1: TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow

977
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: us across all social media platforms At lava For good

978
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: and At Wrongful. Conviction you can also follow me On

979
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: instagram At It's Jason. Flamm Wrongful conviction is a production

980
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: Of lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company Number.

981
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 5: One we've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

982
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 5: in this show are. Accurate the views and opinions expressed

983
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 5: by the individuals featured in this show are their own

984
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 5: and do not necessarily reflect those Of LoVa For.

985
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: Good