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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Ever? Lead you astray tr us.

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Speaker 2: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 4: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 4: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 4: and manipulation from two babies one more time Who've actually

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Speaker 4: experienced it. I'm Lola Blank and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and

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Speaker 4: today we are interviewing Jenny Ellis, Q journalist, radio host

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Speaker 4: and producer who's produced documentaries like Britney Versus Spears, which

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Speaker 4: covered Britney spears infamous conservatorship. She'll explain how britney struggles

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and eight were used to justify a

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Speaker 4: permanent conservatorship, despite the contradiction of her being deemed too

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Speaker 4: incapacitated to control her life yet well enough to tour

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Speaker 4: record and generate massive income that her father, whom she

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Speaker 4: barely had a relationship with, was in charge of.

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Speaker 5: She'll talk about the severity of the conservator ship that

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Speaker 5: stripped Britney of the right to use her phone and

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Speaker 5: make medical decisions or even have a say, and who

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Speaker 5: her lawyer was going to be, and where Britney's fight

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Speaker 5: to end the conservatorship finally landed and.

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Speaker 4: Before we do this interview with Jenny Megan, can you

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Speaker 4: tell me your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 5: My cultiest thing of the week has just been kind

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Speaker 5: of deep diving into Brittany, you know. And I think

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Speaker 5: celebrity in and of itself is a cult and we

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Speaker 5: should really make it illegal.

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Speaker 4: Just no one can know who anyone is a legalized celebrity.

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Speaker 5: In every way, I think it does something that cults

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Speaker 5: do very intentionally, where it isolates people. You really can't

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Speaker 5: connect that well to people. Maybe some people can, but

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Speaker 5: like once you reach that Britney Spears level, it's just

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Speaker 5: kind of you're isolated.

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Speaker 1: Let's be real. Yeah, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think you have to be, but

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Speaker 4: I think it's it seems like it's a very easy,

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Speaker 4: like fast track to being surrounded only by people who

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Speaker 4: care about how much money you're making.

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Speaker 1: Yes, men, you're on tour.

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Speaker 4: You're not like at home with your family being grounded

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Speaker 4: or you know, you're like just like constantly going, going, going,

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Speaker 4: Which it makes sense to me that so many people

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Speaker 4: do struggle with mental health when they reach those high heights,

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Speaker 4: especially because you know, I'm sure we've.

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Speaker 1: Talked about this before.

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Speaker 4: But like, you just hear so many stories of people

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Speaker 4: who like finally get the thing they wanted their whole life,

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Speaker 4: like the Oscar or the Grammy or whatever it is,

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Speaker 4: and then they're like the next day they're like, wait,

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Speaker 4: that's it. That was this thing I was working for

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Speaker 4: my whole life, and there's nothing on the other side,

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Speaker 4: like I'm just still myself and the emptiness that can

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Speaker 4: come from that as well, Like, I think there's a

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Speaker 4: lot there that can really push people to their breaking point.

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Speaker 4: And of course it must be said that while it

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Speaker 4: can probably be very difficult to be a celebrity a

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Speaker 4: lot of the time, there of course are people who

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Speaker 4: are actively seeking out that status because of the power

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Speaker 4: that it affords them, and there are many people in

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Speaker 4: those positions that do abuse that power. So that's the

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Speaker 4: flip side of the coin. But you know, for just

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Speaker 4: like the average nice person who ends up a megastar

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Speaker 4: when they weren't prepared for it, I think it can

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Speaker 4: be also very damaging to one's mental health.

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Speaker 5: I just think it's a very destabilizing process for people.

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Speaker 5: And obviously I have been not successful in my attempts

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Speaker 5: to illegalize celebrity it's just getting worse every day. But

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Speaker 5: I don't see it as something that really works out

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Speaker 5: well for most people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and for the fans too, Like I don't know. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: being a fan of something or someone is great. It's

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Speaker 4: great to have passions and interest. But I was talking

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Speaker 4: about this with someone this week where we were like,

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Speaker 4: I can't think of a time where I've like looked

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Speaker 4: at a public figure and been like, I don't care

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Speaker 4: what they do. I will love them no matter what.

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Speaker 4: We're like, no, like if they do something shitty, like

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Speaker 4: that's shitty, you know.

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Speaker 1: But there's there's a level.

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Speaker 4: Of like you know, super fandom where it's like I

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Speaker 4: don't care. I mean, you see this with a lot

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Speaker 4: of Donald Trump supporters. I don't care what they do.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to follow them no matter what, just because

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Speaker 4: I have this like really intense parasocial relationship with this

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Speaker 4: public figure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I probably have that with like Danny DeVito, honestly the

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Speaker 4: healthiest one I can think of.

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Speaker 1: That sounds perfect. He like has no bad takes for me.

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Speaker 1: I just like him.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't think I have it. I don't think

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Speaker 4: I have it. But also I think, you know, the

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Speaker 4: upbringing that I had, which involved a lot of like

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Speaker 4: putting people on pedestals. Obviously, maybe that's a contributing factor

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Speaker 4: to why that isn't sure how I operate, But in

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Speaker 4: high school, when I was thirteen, I loved the Misfits

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Speaker 4: a lot. I'll tell you really, I would go hard

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Speaker 4: for the Misfits, and in elementary school I would have

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Speaker 4: gone hard for any spice girl. But then, you know,

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Speaker 4: it kind of just falls away before we get to

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Speaker 4: your cultist thing. I will say, you did write a

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Speaker 4: Britney Spears song, so we just got to always represent Yeah, yes, lovely,

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Speaker 4: did we will write a Britney Spears song? I did?

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Speaker 4: So cool?

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Speaker 1: Did we will to be?

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Speaker 4: And we'll tell you which one in the interview once

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Speaker 4: the interview begins, What is your cultius thing? Uh, it's dumb,

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Speaker 4: it also feels it also feels so silly, all of it,

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Speaker 4: given how crazy America is right now. But you know,

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Speaker 4: we're just it's just not that episode. We're just not

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Speaker 4: going to talk about that this episode. America's in a

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Speaker 4: cult But Okay, I rewatched Fight Club and I forgot

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Speaker 4: I didn't really register in my memory that Tyler Jrden

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Speaker 4: was fully a cult leader in that movie that's like

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Speaker 4: one was happening.

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Speaker 1: Fight Club is a cult.

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Speaker 4: Everything that he says, you know, the people in Fight

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Speaker 4: Club just like repeat it like robots, you know, and

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Speaker 4: they do whatever he says, and when he changes his mind,

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Speaker 4: they're like, yes, there must be a reason. And I'm like,

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Speaker 4: oh my god. I just never realized the Fight Club

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Speaker 4: was like fully about a cult. I never put it together.

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Speaker 4: And it's a great movie and it holds up.

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Speaker 5: I will say, yeah, And then what's the thing about

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Speaker 5: how like the book was just written ironically about how

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Speaker 5: many are the author was like pointing out, I think

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Speaker 5: he's gay.

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Speaker 1: I think the author is gay.

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Speaker 5: And he was pointing out how men's only emotion is

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Speaker 5: anger and how easily they can be manipulated through that.

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Speaker 1: Please please fact check me on that he is gay. Wow.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's supposed to be ironic, almost American psycho level.

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Speaker 5: But much like American psycho. People were like, I'm I'm inspired.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, wow. I never I had no idea Chuck Palinik

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Speaker 4: was gay. I didn't know any of that. It all

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Speaker 4: makes sense like watching it now, but you know, I

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Speaker 4: just had this like high school idea of this movie,

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Speaker 4: and it was like the movie that boys in high

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Speaker 4: school loved, you know, it was like just like a

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Speaker 4: cool guy movie. And I'm like, oh my god, no,

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Speaker 4: it actually is saying so much more than I ever

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Speaker 4: realized about masculinity and consumerism and capitalism. And listen, go

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Speaker 4: rewatch fight Club. This is a Fight Club commercial.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, even if you like already thought Fight Club was

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Speaker 5: you know, very layered and saw that happening. Also, I

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Speaker 5: just think knowing that it's a book, kind of making

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Speaker 5: fun of how much people would like that movie and

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Speaker 5: be inspired by it is also funny. And gwennebar Turner,

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Speaker 5: who wrote American Psycho, was a guest on this podcast,

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Speaker 5: and that is another amazing movie about kind of a

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Speaker 5: culty guy in my opinion, and celebrity kind of.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 5: Nah, I'm like, you know, tried, I did try. I

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Speaker 5: really tried to circle back. And that's fine.

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Speaker 1: You're just how it doesn't work.

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Speaker 4: Just trying to shout out one of your turner because

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Speaker 4: we love her and I always shout her out, but

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Speaker 4: she is unreally but it did not.

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Speaker 5: It did not tie back. But do you know what

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Speaker 5: does tie back tell? Our conversation with Jenny should we

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Speaker 5: get into it.

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Speaker 1: With her, Let's do it. Welcome Jenny ELISQ to trust me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's great to meet you.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for being here. I've been watching your face

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Speaker 4: for the last twenty four hours. Oh Dad, you are

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Speaker 4: here with us to talk about Britney Spears, a topic

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Speaker 4: you happen to know quite a bit about. Can you

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Speaker 4: tell us when you first interviewed Brittany and how that went.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I first met and interviewed Brittany when I

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Speaker 2: was working at Rolling Stone as a writer and had

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Speaker 2: been assigned a cover story on her, and that would

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Speaker 2: have been wow gee. So I'm going to guess it

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Speaker 2: was the year two thousand. It was in the year

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Speaker 2: two thousand ish. You probably know better than maybe in Brittany. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I love her, I mean, you know, I will

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Speaker 2: say at the outset, I'm coming from the perspective of

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Speaker 2: deep love for her, having with that first meeting then

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Speaker 2: many many encounters with her over the years since. So

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Speaker 2: we really hit it off well. And you know, that

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Speaker 2: was during a period in her life when everything was

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Speaker 2: going great and subsequent to that, because we had gotten

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Speaker 2: on well, like you know, I would be assigned to

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Speaker 2: her for things of various sizes for the magazine from there,

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Speaker 2: which you know is kind of standard thing like if

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Speaker 2: you have a good relationship with someone, when there's a

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Speaker 2: year People of the Year Q and A, or there's

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Speaker 2: a Women in Rock issue or there's a whatever, it

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Speaker 2: would be me. And then, you know, separate from that,

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Speaker 2: like I was doing some freelancing and so then it'd

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Speaker 2: be like I got a sign to write about her

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Speaker 2: for teen Vogue or something, and so there was everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, yeah, lots of opportunities to build a rapport

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Speaker 2: over the years. You know, we at one point we're

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Speaker 2: getting together separately to talk about like me helping her

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Speaker 2: write a memoir, you know, long long, long before she

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Speaker 2: actually did write a memoir. I wrote the liner notes

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Speaker 2: for her my prerogative greatest hits. I was in her

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Speaker 2: behind the music, like she would send me thank you

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Speaker 2: gifts like, you know, so we had a you know,

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Speaker 2: a true relationship.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't realize how deep that went from from

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Speaker 4: the doc it sounded like for when you first interviewed

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Speaker 4: her for Rolling Stone, you were like, this isn't really

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Speaker 4: my kind of music particularly, but what was it about

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Speaker 4: her that charmed you?

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Speaker 1: What was.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the same thing I think that charms everybody

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Speaker 2: about Brittany, about the sort of what I guess is

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Speaker 2: seen as her original persona, her aura, you know, of

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Speaker 2: just sweetness and you know, innocence. I feel like as

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Speaker 2: a loaded her, especially in the context of Brittany. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, I just really appreciated how

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Speaker 2: humble and friendly she was. And she was a superstar,

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Speaker 2: you know, at the peak when I met her, and

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Speaker 2: you know, although she's younger than me, it was like

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Speaker 2: I was closer in age to her than a lot

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Speaker 2: of other folks at big publications who'd been sent to

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Speaker 2: interview her. And that was something that we chatted about

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Speaker 2: in our first interview, is she's like, oh, you're young,

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Speaker 2: Like she was relieved not to have like an old

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Speaker 2: man coming to interview her, and at that exactly, and

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Speaker 2: she just she was just so sweet and accessible and

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Speaker 2: down to earth, and I was surprised and refreshed by it.

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Speaker 2: So as you say, even though I wasn't into pop music,

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Speaker 2: I've always been more of just like an indie person,

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Speaker 2: but I just got it immediately, like this is why

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Speaker 2: this person is so magnetic.

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Speaker 1: Had you interviewed many pop stars.

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Speaker 2: No. I mean I was still pretty new at Rolling Stone,

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Speaker 2: and I had come from like an independent music magazine

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Speaker 2: and was doing like indie rock stuff. So I had

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Speaker 2: only really done a couple of bigger pieces before that.

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Speaker 2: Like my first cover story was with the band Stained

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Speaker 2: It's remember that. Yeah, So that was like not that

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Speaker 2: long before, you know. I had just gotten to Rolling

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Speaker 2: Stone in ninety nine, like shortly after the Britney Teletubby

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Speaker 2: covers when I started there, So it was like, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to write about pop people now. So I

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Speaker 2: think she Proba had done shorter you know, Q and

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Speaker 2: A type things with like Cisco Thong song guys.

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Speaker 1: Like, yeah, what a cool career, I like you. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Really.

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Speaker 4: So for folks who like maybe weren't following the trajectory

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Speaker 4: of this conservatorship, like, can you kind of explain when

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Speaker 4: it began and how and why it happened?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So the conservatorship began after the era that

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Speaker 2: everyone knows as famously chaotic for Brittany, you know, after

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Speaker 2: all of the months in two thousand and seven of

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Speaker 2: people seeing these outbursts in public of her seeming to

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Speaker 2: be in a roller coaster phase of her life, the

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Speaker 2: famous head shaving and you know, driving with the kid

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Speaker 2: on her lap without the seat belt. You know, all

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Speaker 2: these things that were just thing after thing after thing,

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Speaker 2: and people were like, what will let Brittany do next?

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Speaker 2: What do you think she'll be? You know, there was

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Speaker 2: a crescendo leading up to her being put in this conservatorship,

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Speaker 2: including two separate instances when she was brought to the

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Speaker 2: hospital on a psychiatric hole to fifty one to fifty

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Speaker 2: and after the first one the wheels got set in motion.

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Speaker 2: The research, you know, theoretically began then with quote marks

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Speaker 2: I'm doing with my fingers, because it's believed that her

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Speaker 2: family had actually begun looking into how to do this

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Speaker 2: kind of thing even before that, because so much of

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Speaker 2: the story, as we'll get into, it's about the family.

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Speaker 2: You know, the conservatorship system is a whole other issue.

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Speaker 2: But to me zooming out for a minute, it's like

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Speaker 2: Britney's story and and all of the trauma that's been

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Speaker 2: inflicted on her is a result of toxic no unintended

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Speaker 2: family dynamics, and the conservatorship system is already messed up

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Speaker 2: enough that it could be wielded as a weapon by

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Speaker 2: her family against her. But to me, ultimately it's a

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Speaker 2: story of if you have family issues, if your family

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Speaker 2: is not coming from a good place in terms of

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Speaker 2: their motives, there's lots of ways they can kind of

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Speaker 2: mess with you. So yeah, so that was sort of

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Speaker 2: like after she was hospitalized the first time, it's like

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Speaker 2: the wheels were set in motion. The research was happening

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Speaker 2: for how to get a conservatorship, and then after she

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Speaker 2: was soon again hospitalized, it was like, okay, this is

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Speaker 2: when we got the temporary, temporary conservatorship and all the

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Speaker 2: legal processes were underway that eventually later that year in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, it became permanent.

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Speaker 1: So can you explain how a conservatorship works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Conservatorship, which is also known as guardianship, is, you know,

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Speaker 2: something that is sought to look out for the interests

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Speaker 2: of a person who is incapable of handling aspects of

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Speaker 2: their life. And sometimes it's just their finances, sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: their health decisions, sometimes it's you know, their sort of

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Speaker 2: their whole life. And the way it was with Brittany,

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Speaker 2: and this is the kind of thing that you might

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Speaker 2: seek for a family member if you have an older

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Speaker 2: family member who has dementia, and there are various bureaucracies

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Speaker 2: and things you might want to do for that family

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Speaker 2: member that you need to have a guardianship in order

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Speaker 2: to be able to do. You know, I'm sure a

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Speaker 2: lot of folks know. You can get power of attorney

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Speaker 2: and you can get an advanced directive healthcare proxy for someone,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes that's not enough in

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Speaker 2: order in the eyes of bureaucracies and the law to

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Speaker 2: be able to do the person's taxes or you know,

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Speaker 2: you need in some cases you need a step up

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Speaker 2: from that legally, and so that might be in the

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Speaker 2: sort of most innocuous version where you're like, I'm just

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Speaker 2: trying to help my aging parent with their stuff and

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Speaker 2: they have Alzheimer's or whatever, where it's like, unfortunately, for

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Speaker 2: certain things, power of attorney and healthcare proxy aren't enough.

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Speaker 2: Then you've got to seek a conservatorship or a guardianship,

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Speaker 2: right that would give you the power to do so.

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Speaker 5: The typical person under the system is not able to

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Speaker 5: probably like work or.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I have a family member who's under conservatorship

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Speaker 4: because of memory issues from a brain injury. It's because

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Speaker 4: he is like completely incapable of you know, like handling

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Speaker 4: his affairs or holding a job or anything like that.

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Speaker 4: How do you have any sense of like how frequent

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Speaker 4: like someone's under conservatorship, not for a memory issue, but

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Speaker 4: for just like mental illness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's very common. Yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think it's very common for so, I mean it can

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Speaker 2: be any number of things, you know, mental health, schizophrenia,

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Speaker 2: you know, these kinds of things, or any number of

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Speaker 2: different more physical ailments that impede their ability to take

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Speaker 2: care of everything that they need to in their life

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Speaker 2: or understand how to. Yeah, I think we associate it

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Speaker 2: with older people, and I don't know the actual stats

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Speaker 2: on what percentage are geriatric population. I'm sure that's a

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Speaker 2: large portion of I imagine that's a large portion of it.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it can be any any range of

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Speaker 2: folks who would otherwise be legally allowed to make their

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Speaker 2: decisions but aren't. So if you're a child, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're you're sort of automatic conservatorship.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense if somebody is

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Speaker 4: having a psychotic repeated psychotic episodes and they're unable to

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Speaker 4: take care of themselves or are engaging in risky behavior,

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Speaker 4: it totally makes sense as a thing that.

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Speaker 1: Exists as a theory.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and I'm sure much of the time

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Speaker 4: it's necessary, but of course you run into trouble, particularly

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Speaker 4: when somebody is very, very wealthy and there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of money involved and power.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Can you explain what was her relationship with her

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Speaker 4: dad like before the conservatorship to your understanding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the well documented the relationship with her

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Speaker 2: dad was not good, and that he was sort of

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Speaker 2: the secondary parent in terms of during her childhood. He

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Speaker 2: was an alcoholic and that was the sort of active

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Speaker 2: problem in the household, and so he was not around

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Speaker 2: and parenting in the same way that her mom was.

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Speaker 2: And all of the kind of early getting into the

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Speaker 2: entertainment business stuff for her was with her mom. Her

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Speaker 2: mom was the person who was with her traveling, you know,

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Speaker 2: as her chaperone and guardian and parent, you know, on

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Speaker 2: site for everything. So and in addition to that fact

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Speaker 2: that she was traveling with her mom, not her dad,

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Speaker 2: her dad also was you know, an alcoholic and that

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Speaker 2: was a problem in the household during her childhood.

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Speaker 5: I remember Lynn and her traveling around her mom and

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Speaker 5: being like, what a life that looks like the perfect life.

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Speaker 5: Just interestingly, why did he end up being the person?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean he he has a take control energy

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Speaker 2: about him.

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Speaker 1: He's so scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the parents, you know, Lynn and Jamie had

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Speaker 2: split up before the conservatorship happened. They were separated or

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they were divorced then or frankly

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Speaker 2: if they ever legally got divorced, but I think they

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Speaker 2: probably did. But he's the guy who rules with the

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Speaker 2: with the iron fist, you know. And I think probably

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Speaker 2: that Lynn thought, oh, I don't want to be the

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Speaker 2: bad guy, and he can be the bad guy. M

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Speaker 2: and he you know, at the time that they got

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Speaker 2: the conservatorship, they had good reason to be concerned about

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Speaker 2: folks who were in her life who might be not

378
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Speaker 2: the best people to have around during this era and

379
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Speaker 2: in general. And so Jamie is the one who could

380
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Speaker 2: scare off any unsavory characters who might be lingering at

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Speaker 2: you know. And he is he is a very very

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Speaker 2: intimidating man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can say that again.

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Speaker 4: He's very scary to me, like very scary.

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Speaker 1: And who was Lou Taylor?

386
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Speaker 2: And Lou Taylor was Britney's basically like business manager and

387
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Speaker 2: is a very sort of big time business manager for

388
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Speaker 2: celebrities and artists and stuff like that, and you know,

389
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Speaker 2: famously works with the Kardashians.

390
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Speaker 5: It was interesting, like Luke, you know, had this very

391
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Speaker 5: Christian oriented take on everything, you know, like Britney's family

392
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Speaker 5: wants and Jesus wants the best for her, and it

393
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Speaker 5: was like, you can't just throw that in the mix,

394
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Speaker 5: like that's not fair.

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Speaker 1: I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.

396
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that that kind of that kind of

397
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Speaker 2: Christian religious stuff had been a part of her life

398
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Speaker 2: and her family life and belief system, like from her

399
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 2: childhood for sure, So it definitely was part of the

400
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Speaker 2: family culture even before lou Taylor got in the mix.

401
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Speaker 2: And for whom that's an important value system as well.

402
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Speaker 2: I think that that exacerbated the tensions and the inappropriateness

403
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Speaker 2: of the people who were on top being the ones

404
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: who were on top, because that wasn't the value system

405
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Speaker 2: really that was most important to Brittany in her life

406
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Speaker 2: at that point, you know, So they really were again

407
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Speaker 2: sort of imposing their value system on her that should

408
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Speaker 2: not have been.

409
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and once you have that value system, it's a

410
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Speaker 5: very narcissistic value system almost because you're like, well, I

411
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Speaker 5: have the right answer and I'm working with God, so yeah,

412
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Speaker 5: you don't have.

413
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 1: God wants this according Yeah, yeah, because I said so.

414
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Speaker 2: And also just like again like as you've said, it's like, no,

415
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Speaker 2: God wants us to make your money, Brittany. God wants

416
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Speaker 2: it to be us. Sort of like that you can't

417
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: have you can't have it both ways. I mean they did,

418
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: but you shouldn't. The three prongs of what really trapped

419
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Speaker 2: Brittany are the family, the original captors in a way,

420
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Speaker 2: and then the business which also trapped her whoever that

421
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: might be Lou Taylor or any number of people who

422
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 2: came along who made decisions that exacerbated her vulnerability. And

423
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,479
Speaker 2: then the legal system, you know, ultimately as the final

424
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 2: pin in the puzzle. For the legal system to support

425
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: this conservatorship and support what the family and business folks

426
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: were insisting on is what actually made the nightmare go

427
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 2: another level for her. Yeah, but you know, she had said,

428
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 2: she was always saying in that period leading up to

429
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 2: the conservatorship, like one day they're gonna burst through that door,

430
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 2: they being her family, and they're gonna they're gonna lock

431
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 2: me up. You know, they're going to take over. They're

432
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: gonna come for me. That was what she believed, and

433
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: she was right. They did well.

434
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Speaker 1: She tried to have it, not beat her father initially, right.

435
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Speaker 2: The idea of her trying anything in that phase is like,

436
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 2: it's problematic because no one was listening to her and

437
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 2: they were able to not listen to her because they

438
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: characterized her as being unable to make decisions and they

439
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: were able to get the conservatorship in place and bat away,

440
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: you know, like a cat that's knocking your frickin' glass

441
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: off the table. You know, any attempts by her to

442
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: say this isn't what I want. I want to pick

443
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: my own lawyer, you know, anything like that, by saying, well,

444
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: she doesn't have the capacity, and just look at her.

445
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 2: She doesn't have the capacity, and.

446
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 5: Even saying she has like dementia, correct, like she has dementia.

447
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: She can't choose her own lawyer. And it's like.

448
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: What, yeah, And this I imagine must be a problem

449
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: for other folks who get into this conservatorship predicament where

450
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, you say they need a conservatorship because they

451
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: don't have the capacity to handle their affairs but they say,

452
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: I want to pick my own lawyer. And then they say,

453
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: but as we've established, they don't have the capacity. Right,

454
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: It's like say, blah blah, you know, so then what

455
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: well then if you then what yeah, right, Like that's

456
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 2: a trick.

457
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: That's a trick, that's a closed bloop. Not fair.

458
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 4: It's like the movie scene where someone gets put into

459
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 4: a psych word and they're like, no, but I'm not crazy.

460
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 4: And the more they say they're not crazy, they're like, well,

461
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 4: that's exactly what a crazy person would just yeah, there's

462
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 4: just no way to win really, which I mean not

463
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 4: either here nor there. But I'm just so curious how

464
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 4: that is different state to state, because you have to

465
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 4: imagine there's some someone some states somewhere has some method

466
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 4: to be like I disagree with hamsure or something.

467
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure there's variation state to state, but

468
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: you know, the best case scenario for the way it's

469
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: supposed to work is that the courts impose the least

470
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: restrictive option on the person, so that if and there

471
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: are levels of conservatorship, you know, so if you're thinking

472
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: of good faith, you know, in the legal system, like

473
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: the good faith outcome is that the courts and the

474
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: people who are asking for conservatorship are offering the least

475
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: restrictive option where the person still retains as many of

476
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: their rights as possible. But we're truly just here to

477
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: help with blank this one thing. And again, it sort

478
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: of comes down to this combination of how fucked up

479
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: the legal system is in whatever state or county, whoever

480
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: is petitioning for it, how problematic they are in relation

481
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: to the person, and then the person's individual situation. But

482
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: the courts are supposed to advocate for the person to

483
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: retain as many of their rights and as much of

484
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: their autonomy as possible. And you know, I think in

485
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 2: the case of Brittany, two of the factors that we're

486
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: huge with the timing of this and in general, one

487
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: is we all remember that Brittany was creating chaos in

488
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: and around her home here in Los Angeles. By it's

489
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: not her fault. Paparazzi were hounding her, but because she

490
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: was willing to take them on high speed chases around

491
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: the mountains, that was a problem for the area. That

492
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: was a problem. You know, that would be a problem

493
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: for taxpayers, right, It's scary, it's dangerous, there's a political

494
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: pressure on judges who are elected officials to keep their

495
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: constituents happy. And if you're wealthy constituents who are like that,

496
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: Brittany's got to be taken off the streets. You're more

497
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: likely to take her off the streets by the pup and.

498
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 5: She needs to be taken off the streets because the

499
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 5: way they were attacking her and hounding her. I mean,

500
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 5: I couldn't live a single day of my life like that.

501
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 5: And it's so reminiscent of Princess Diana. Yeah, you know,

502
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 5: it's just wild how every step was a problem, I mean,

503
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 5: just attacked.

504
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, No, And no one would argue that the

505
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: paparazzi should be put in a conservatorship, even though what

506
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: they're doing de uys logic. But you know, the other

507
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 2: problem is just and this continues to be a problem,

508
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: is us the audience is.

509
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: Us, Oh, no, we're doing it right now.

510
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the I mean, you know, not what we're doing

511
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: right now. But the thing everyone else does all the time,

512
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: even after she's gotten out of the conservatorship and leading

513
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: up to it long before, is to put this lens

514
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 2: on her, that is this unfair lens that strips her

515
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: of free will and you know, doesn't credit her with

516
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: intelligence and autonomy, and that just objectifies her to an

517
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: extent that we can be like, no, I'd rather have

518
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: I'd rather have her dad pulling the strings than a

519
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: free Brittany, you know, because I don't know if I

520
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: understand this woman who shaved her head or who is this?

521
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: This isn't what we signed up for, This isn't what

522
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: we want her to be. So if this is going

523
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: to make her blonde, and then I guess we'll just

524
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: accept that she really needed it. And I still even

525
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: getting ready to meet with you all, I was like

526
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: reading some you know, Reddit bored about her memoir and

527
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 2: people reacting and I see this stuff all the time

528
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: of people saying, well, she she needed this, or she

529
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: she still needs somebody to you know, everyone has these opinions,

530
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: not everyone, but you know that the conservatorship she did

531
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: need something to happen, And I don't know. I still

532
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 2: feel like there's this level of us pathologizing her that

533
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: is disturbing to me. And I think that people, even

534
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 2: with the best intentions, don't see how fucked up it

535
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: is that when they look at her, they think she's

536
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: something's wrong with her? Like what something's wrong with you

537
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: that you look at a person that is a stranger

538
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: that you don't know, and you're willing to just believe

539
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: all of the narrative that's been constructed by folks who

540
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: don't wish her well to decide, oh, yeah, something's wrong

541
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: with her though, like no, are she's kind of like

542
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: like because we have had guests on before who well

543
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: one guest who is like part of a fandom, and

544
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: she found herself to be in kind of a cult,

545
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: remember that guest?

546
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 5: Is it kind of like we as a as a

547
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 5: society need to stop making figures and pop culture are

548
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 5: cult leaders because then we lose perspective on what is

549
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 5: right what is wrong And I'm putting quotation marks you know,

550
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 5: what they should do, and then it's an unfair placement

551
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 5: on them and we don't know them.

552
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: Is that kind of the Yeah, some of it.

553
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I just think it's this objectification ultimately that

554
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: we you know, if only we would treat them like

555
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: cult leaders almost because then you know, we would listen

556
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: to them when they say, hey, I want to be

557
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: free or something. You know, it's that we strip them

558
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: of any free will, and we make them into these

559
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: like you know, Barbie dolls that we can move around

560
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: and be like I want them to be doing this

561
00:29:59,040 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: for that now.

562
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: And I mean, I think there are a lot of

563
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 4: fans who are just genuinely concerned for her safety. Like

564
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: I you know, we've seen a lot of people online

565
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 4: who are who like, yeah, for sure want her to

566
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: be free and also want her to be safe. I

567
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 4: just want to speak like those people definitely exist, you

568
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like.

569
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: Right, I just would push back on that. Why do

570
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: we think she's unsafe?

571
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 4: I think I think it's hard for people to look

572
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 4: at behavior that seems different from you know, how someone

573
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 4: would typically act online or whatever, and not think that

574
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: there's like something happening mental health wise, you know what

575
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 4: I mean, Like we don't know, but like hopefully whatever

576
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 4: help she needs, if she needs it, she's getting it.

577
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 4: I'm not the one to say what that is or

578
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 4: what that looks like. It's certainly not her father having

579
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 4: a concernship over her.

580
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, am I being Devil's advocate a tiny bit?

581
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: But but no, I just think that any other person

582
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: on social media who were to post videos that Britney

583
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: posts that we don't have some elaborate backstory about. We

584
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: would not necessarily look at it and say, I hope

585
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: she's safe. I hope she's getting help. We might say,

586
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: ooh spicy or quirky, or like, you know that interesting,

587
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: Oh she seems like fun. You know, there's different ways

588
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: we would look at it. It's because we know too

589
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: much or we think we know too much about what's

590
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: quote unquote really going on, that people project this thing

591
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: onto her that I hope she gets help or she

592
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: needs help when possibly and again, we don't know her diagnoses,

593
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: whatever they may or may not be, although people like

594
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: to speculate about that, what if she's just neurodivergent? And

595
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: if she's neurodivergent? Don't we want her to have the

596
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: same autonomy and freedom from our perceptions and assumptions that

597
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: any other neurodivergent nor me would get from us. But

598
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: because we've co opted her and her brand so much,

599
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: people feel perfectly comfortable saying like some I don't know,

600
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: I wonder what's wrong with her? Like, yeah, the whole

601
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: the whole way it's framed to me is so judgmental

602
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: in a way that I thought, you know, as a society,

603
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: we're not judgmental about neurodivergence, like we everyone is free

604
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: to be who they are, and it doesn't you can't

605
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: just come in and take someone's rights away because they're different,

606
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: And we can't force people to take medication they don't

607
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: want to take, just so that they are who we

608
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: thought we wanted them.

609
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: To be, right right, you know what.

610
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 5: It reminds me of a little bit the documentary Mother God.

611
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 1: Have you seen it?

612
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: I haven't and you haven't.

613
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: Oh do you remember it? Lola?

614
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well she's kind of like put in this position

615
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 5: and they're like you are God, you are everything. And

616
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 5: then she's like, actually, I don't. I don't think that

617
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 5: I am, and they're like, no, you are and you

618
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 5: will be. And it's it's kind of like once you

619
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 5: get into this point and it's like, guys, you can

620
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 5: kind of be like, you know what, I'm shaving my head.

621
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to do it anymore.

622
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 5: I'm out, and the people are like, no, you're gonna

623
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 5: You're gonna be what we need.

624
00:32:59,400 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

625
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: I mean people always do this thing where they say,

626
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: like with celebrities or whatever, if they complain at all

627
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: or they fight back against it, like this is what

628
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: you signed up for, you know kind of thing. Yeah,

629
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: and then you want to say like, no one knows

630
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: what they signed up for, you know. It's not like

631
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,239
Speaker 2: when you signed up to be a bartender and you're like, well,

632
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: you knew you were going to have to be here

633
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: a little close, Like, no matter how ambitious you might be,

634
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: especially as legitimately a fucking child, like exactly, but anyone

635
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: who pursues fame, you don't. You can't know until you

636
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: get it how disturbing it can be, especially if you

637
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: have a certain kind of nervous system, or you have

638
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: any neurodivergence or anything else going on that you're like,

639
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: I wasn't expecting it to be so.

640
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: Scared, so regulated.

641
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 4: Wanting to be in movies or be a singer doesn't

642
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: necessarily mean that you want people staring at you and

643
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 4: scrutinizing your every move every single.

644
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: Hour of every day.

645
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 4: Like those are different things, Like they can go hand

646
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: in hand, but it doesn't mean you want the second thing.

647
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: I don't know.

648
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then it just becomes like kind of a

649
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 5: parent thing, like I do see it more and more now,

650
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 5: kids who are young people who are pursuing a career

651
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 5: and are successful and you just don't see them outside

652
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 5: of that atmosphere, like they're not paparazzi as much.

653
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the paparazzi economy like is dwindled because

654
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: of you know, social media and the fact that people

655
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: document themselves and so there's not as much of that,

656
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: Like the only the only way you're going to get

657
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 2: a pick of Ariana is if you follow her. It's

658
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: like if you know, I think folks have figured out

659
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: like if I post enough of myself, there's not that

660
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: desperation to to get that stuff.

661
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 5: How much was the picture of Britney Spears going for

662
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 5: like a good picture?

663
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 2: Oh snap, I don't, I don't. I don't actually know.

664
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 2: I would be making up some impressive figures.

665
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 5: I mean I do, I do believe in and the

666
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 5: duck it's set up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

667
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that would probably have been right when.

668
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 4: It was like, yeah, when it was like the most

669
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 4: controversial era where everyone wanted now was the Internet.

670
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 2: It's just Internet, yeah, yeah, But.

671
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 5: I did like the reference of the paparazzi who said,

672
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 5: like this attracts adrenaline junkies and gambling addicts, and I

673
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 5: was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense that

674
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 5: these are the kind of people that are swarming totally exeatally.

675
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all men, and it just to think

676
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: about how scary it must be for any non man

677
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: to be harassed by these aggressive, greedy men who are

678
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: chasing you and pushing and screaming at you, trying to

679
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: get a reaction. Yeah, just trying to get a reaction.

680
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: And if you have any traumatic history with aggressive men,

681
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: and now there's a bunch of aggressive men yelling at

682
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: you and chasing you.

683
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it didn't really alcoholic dad, Yeah, tell us

684
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 5: about the bathroom signature.

685
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,959
Speaker 2: Yes. So, as I was saying earlier, like she tried

686
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 2: to get her own lawyer in the early days of

687
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 2: the conservatorship, that was maybe one way she was going

688
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: to be able to get out of it. Was like,

689
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: if she can choose her own lawyer rather than having

690
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: a lawyer designated by the court and her parents signing

691
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: off on it, then she can convey to that lawyer

692
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: I don't want this, this is unfair, I don't need this,

693
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: and that person would advocate for her because she chose them,

694
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: and so there were multiple attempts by her, except that

695
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: everyone in charge was trying to keep her from doing

696
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: these things, keeping her from having a phone, keeping her

697
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: from being monitoring all of her communications, so that they

698
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: could prevent something like that, and ultimately say, well, she

699
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: doesn't have again, she doesn't have the capacity to choose

700
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: a lawyer, so this is invalid. Even though she somehow

701
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 2: got away and met up with Adam streisand one of

702
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: the lawyers who was up for representing her and taking

703
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: it on, and you know, sort of instantly they would

704
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: find a way to get it thrown out. And so

705
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: that had happened a few times in early two thousand

706
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: and eight, And in two thousand and eight, I wrote

707
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: another Rolling Stone cover story about Brittany. When I was

708
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: trying to set up the interviews, sort of I hadn't

709
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: followed that closely. I had sort of taken a break

710
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: from paying attention to what was going on because the

711
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: minutia of it. As someone who really like even though

712
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: we just had this journalistic relationship, I really cared about

713
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: her and I didn't like seeing the way she was

714
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: being treated, and so I just if I wasn't on assignment,

715
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: I didn't need to be like in the ins and

716
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: outs of it. And then I got assigned to do

717
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: another cover story with her, and she was going to

718
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 2: have her album come out, her her Circus album, and

719
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, we're doing it. Me and Brittany,

720
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 2: we're going to do the thing. I reached out to

721
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: the people at the label, the publicist, let's set up

722
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: some time, and I started hearing, Oh, there's this conservatorship,

723
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: so things that I had never had to do before

724
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 2: with someone who again, I had had all of these

725
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: interactions with her, I had been with her on our

726
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: own talking about these other projects. They're like, oh, you

727
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: have to submit your questions ahead of time at Rolling

728
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: Stone back then, that was unheard of, baby, And then

729
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: well it was just truly on journalist stick, like you

730
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: don't you're not allowed to see my questions, Like it

731
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: goes against all of the rules of journalism. You don't

732
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 2: see your questions ahead of time. And I reached out

733
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 2: to my editor and I was like, well, you're going

734
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: to need to talk to them because they're saying this

735
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: crazy talk. And he was like, yeah, you're going to

736
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: have to do that, and I was like what Because

737
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: Britney sells magazines. They wanted to get the cover, so

738
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: they were willing to accommodate it. And then the next

739
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: thing was okay, you're gonna and they would strike some

740
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: questions from the list, you know. I remember I was

741
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: going to ask her about the presidential election, actually for

742
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: the two thousand and eight presidential election. That was one

743
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: of the things. They're like, no, don't ask with that.

744
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: I wouldn't love to know that answer. I know, right,

745
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 2: her manager has to be in the room for the interview. Again,

746
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: that's not allowed. You're not allowed to insist on that

747
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: in true journalism, you know. So I was like, oh, well,

748
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: this is going to be the one my editor is

749
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: not going to say yes to that. They said yes

750
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: to that. So at every turn I'm like, but.

751
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: It's me and Brittany, We've done this, she as me.

752
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: At every turn they would be like, sorry, concerned, it's

753
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: not me, it's the conservatorship. And that made me feel like,

754
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 2: what the fuck is the conservatorship? I need to figure

755
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: out what's going on here, and did a bunch of

756
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: research and ended up writing this cover story that was

757
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, not to say it was critical

758
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: of the conservatorship, but it was sort of raised some

759
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: questions about whether it was over the top, and how

760
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 2: could someone who was unwell enough to need a conservatorship

761
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: be well enough to be putting out an album. You know,

762
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 2: that's the central problem with the conservatorship is that if

763
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: you're sick enough to need one, you're too sick to work,

764
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: and they kept making her work. So in reporting that story,

765
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 2: I had developed relationships with some of my sources, including

766
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: the exiled, disgraced former manager Sam Lutfi, who say what

767
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: you will, Yes, very problematic, definitely shady, definitely did some

768
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: things that were beyond unprofessional, but also was a scapegoat

769
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 2: and did have Britney's best interests at hard in some ways,

770
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: and had some compelling information about thisttempt to get lawyers

771
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: and how that would have been good for her and

772
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: why it was fucked up that they wouldn't let her.

773
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: So in early two thousand and nine, he was sort

774
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: of still hearing from her and reaching out to her

775
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: and trying to find a lawyer who would take the

776
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: case even though it had been ineffective previously, and found

777
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: a lawyer who was up for it, and all that

778
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: had to happen was that Brittany had to sign this

779
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: legal document saying I want this person to be my lawyer,

780
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: this guy John Anderson. And how were we going to

781
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 2: get we because I was in the mix, like just

782
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: being like I kind of try and help her to

783
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: sign this thing when no one could reach her. You couldn't.

784
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: There was no way to get access to her.

785
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: No telephone, no telephone.

786
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: They would have to sneak her at telephone. Someone would

787
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: have to slip it in her bag.

788
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 5: At the from going to like the biggest pop star

789
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 5: to no car, no phone.

790
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: It's so wild, like living in jails.

791
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 2: Meaning yeah, there was one moment where she had gotten

792
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: someone had slipped her a cell phone, and then she

793
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: was talking on the cell phone, but she had the

794
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 2: baby monitor on and the the nanny or something heard

795
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: Brittany talking on a phone on the baby monitor and

796
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: ratted her out to her dad, and so they took

797
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: the phone away. You know, she was on her way

798
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: out of the house and they grabbed the purse and

799
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 2: they opened the purse and they take the phone. It's like, okay,

800
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: got to get her another phone. So anyway, Lutvey coordinated

801
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: this meeting, you know through some phone that had been

802
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: snuck to her that you know Jenny Ellisk you remember her,

803
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: She's going to meet you at whatever day it was.

804
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 2: That she was going to this hotel. Okay, that's where

805
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 2: the meat's going to happen. You'll go and that she'll

806
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 2: you'll see her. You'll go meet her in the bathroom.

807
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: She'll have these papers to get this lawyer and you'll

808
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: sign them.

809
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 1: You were you were in a Britney Spears heist.

810
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 2: Honestly it felt very heisty. Yeah, I was like, am

811
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: I in a movie?

812
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: This is insane?

813
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's truly scary, scary shit.

814
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. The fact that, well, first of all, and nothing

815
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: came of that, right.

816
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 2: Nothing came of it. Yeah, exactly like she signed it,

817
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: she said thank you. She to me seemed to know

818
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: what she was signing, and it was scary for both

819
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: of us. She was scared. I was scared. I'd like

820
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: sneaked down the stairs while I was there. Paparazzi was

821
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: getting the shit beat out of them by security guards

822
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: in the parking garage downstairs. So when I got back

823
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: from that, Luffy was like, did you see police while

824
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: you were there? I'm like, oh, God, know why and

825
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: he's like, because it turns out, look, you know is

826
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 2: on online already that this thing had happened anyway, Wow,

827
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 2: they the same thing happened. They well, they said it

828
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 2: was not her signature. Was the first sort of thing

829
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: they would say, that's not her signature, that's a forgery,

830
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: because they couldn't figure out how and when it had

831
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: happened then, and even if it is her signature, she

832
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: doesn't have the capacity to choose a lawyer anyway. So

833
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: within you know, a couple of days, it was like,

834
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: well that was for naught.

835
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, if she would have gotten a lawyer who

836
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 5: wasn't being paid for her to be in a conservator ship,

837
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 5: what do you think the outcome could have been.

838
00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it could have been what wol

839
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: ended up happening in twenty twenty one when Matthew Rosengart

840
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: took over as her lawyer, and there was momentum toward

841
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: the conservatorship ending at that point for various reasons, but

842
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: definitely Rosengart like pushed it to the finish line to

843
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: get her out of it. And Adam streisand like he

844
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: was motivated and he's a great attorney, and he thought

845
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 2: that it was unfair, and.

846
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: Which one was Adam stred He was like the first guy.

847
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: He was the first guy who she snuck off and

848
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 2: met with in early two thousand and eight, and is

849
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: related to Barbara Streis. Oh my god, I think they're

850
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: like cousins or something. Anyway, he a powerful lawyer. He

851
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 2: was up for taking it on, understood why it was unfair,

852
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: and when they were like, you know, she has lack

853
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: of capacity, and people just dropped it, and I get it.

854
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 2: They could really make a case against her that you

855
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 2: don't want to. You don't want to take up with Brittany.

856
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: You don't want to. She's really messed up. She could

857
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: have gotten out of it if somebody had stuck with it.

858
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: She could have gotten out of it in two thousand

859
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: and eight, you know, once they made it quote unque

860
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: permanent later that year. This is before the bathroom thing.

861
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: But when they made it permanent, that was sort of

862
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: like when it was like, oh shit, permanent, m how

863
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: are you gonna on some you know what was she? Yeah,

864
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: you're gonna say the rest of this ladies.

865
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 4: Wow, that's so wild, especially because like I don't know,

866
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 4: like we've we've talked to We know a number of

867
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 4: people who've had like psychotic episodes, for example, and they

868
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 4: come out of it and then they live normal lives

869
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 4: and it's, you know, it's fine, Like maybe sometimes it'll

870
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 4: happen again, but like then once that episode is over again,

871
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 4: they're perfectly fine and capable of living their lives. And

872
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 4: those are people who are like full break from reality,

873
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 4: you know. Like not to say that it's always fine after,

874
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 4: because of course there's spectrum of experiences, but like the

875
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 4: idea that like if somebody were having some kind of

876
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 4: mental health episode, that they should be trapped for all

877
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 4: eternity after it is just just seems like a wild

878
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 4: misunderstanding of how they work, I guess.

879
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then also the person if the person who's

880
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: designated to be their conservator is the last person they

881
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: ever would have chosen, right, that should that should be

882
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 2: that should have some influence, even if they're determined to

883
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: be lacking in certain capacity. It's like to say, Okay,

884
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: I don't want it to be my dad who scares

885
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: the shit out of me, right, Oh my god.

886
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's surprising to me that they chose somebody

887
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 4: who had a very clear, documented history of alcoholism to

888
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 4: be the one who was, and that she brought that up.

889
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 2: And setting aside the alcoholism, like it's just like in

890
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 2: a family that there's issues here and there with everyone,

891
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: but like he was the person in the family she

892
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: had the worst relationship with. So alcoholic are not like

893
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: you should not have to be put under control of

894
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 2: your least favorite person in your family, the person in

895
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: your family you're the most scared of, you know. And

896
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: the great example, the most evocative example, and this is

897
00:45:54,840 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: in Britney's memoir of Jamie being what were what I

898
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 2: use a beast? You know, is this moment when Jamie says,

899
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: I'm Brittany. Now you know, he's you know, somebody is

900
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 2: sort of asking, he's making decisions, and somebody is like, well, Brittany,

901
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: and he says, I'm Brittany. Now horror movie. It's horror movie. Yeah.

902
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

903
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 4: Also, to be clear, I'm not saying alcoholics are you know,

904
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 4: I'm saying I'm an alcoholic recovery. I have many, many

905
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 4: people in my life who I love, no get yeah, totally,

906
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 4: you know, they're they're picking the person with the worst relationship.

907
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: It's also had this history, you know, all.

908
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: The factors that overlapped in this case. That that I

909
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: think is why it was so fucked and why she

910
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: was trapped in it for so long and why you know,

911
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: it's not any of them on their own, like, but

912
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 2: it had to be all of the factors. It had

913
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: to be, you know. You know, honestly, I think they

914
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: part of what they were so scared of, they being

915
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 2: her family was her substance use. And you know, sometimes

916
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: people who have histories with substances them selves are even

917
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: more defensive about other people using. And you know, the

918
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 2: idea that Brittany was using and that they had to

919
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: take control of that. You know, I think some of

920
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: Jamie's reactivity to that was because of his history with alcoholism,

921
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 2: to be like, you know, you don't want your kid

922
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: going down that path, and so you're like, I'm not, No,

923
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: Britney's not going to be on drugs.

924
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 5: So do you think there was like a nugget of

925
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 5: goodwill in his heart? Because to me, he's just pure

926
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 5: evil and I'm like, it's like, I'm going to take

927
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 5: all your money and I'm Britney spears.

928
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: Now, No, it's not so much goodwill. I think it's

929
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: just that conflicting, Like, I think his sort of psychological

930
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: portrait was full of conflict, and I think his own

931
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: self loathing about his history as an alcoholic made him

932
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 2: irate about her using substances and project some of it. Also,

933
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: as you know, you've read her memoir, like, and it's

934
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: in Linz's memoir as well, that Jamie had a traumatic

935
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 2: childhood where his own mother, you know, he had a

936
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: sibling who who died, you know, as an infant, and

937
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: his mom ultimately committed suicide. She actually shot herself on

938
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: the child's grave when Jamie was a child, Like, my god,

939
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: my heart breaks for him that he had that experience.

940
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't it doesn't mean that that's why

941
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 2: he did Britney what he did. But I do have

942
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: empathy for him. But I think all the decisions he

943
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: made were bad, and I think that it's not just

944
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: his own trauma it was it's greed and a lot

945
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: of greed surrounding her, coming at her from all sides.

946
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 5: How much did he get paid to be Britney Spears.

947
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: Shit, I forget, honestly, I forget how much it was.

948
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: It was a lot of money, though, Yeah, like hundreds

949
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars a year. Wow. Yeah.

950
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: And what about the attorney. How much money was he making?

951
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the attorney, the various attorneys were making

952
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 2: a lot of money as well. Yeah, and that's you know,

953
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: money Britney was paying them.

954
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, so highly profitable basically to keep her in this conservativeship,

955
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 4: and not just because they get paid to do it,

956
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 4: but also like I'd love for you to talk about

957
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 4: her being compelled to keep working and like what that

958
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,479
Speaker 4: actually looked like and how it became like insisted upon.

959
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she she made i think four albums

960
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: during the course of the conservatorship, So four albums in

961
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: thirteen years, which is the kind of pace at which

962
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: you know, Adele might make albums four and thirteen years,

963
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 2: not in a conservatorship. So you know, she really was kept.

964
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: And of course obviously she did X Factor as a

965
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: judge and she had her Vegus show, so she was

966
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: working a lot. Might she have autonomously chosen to do

967
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 2: that stuff because she loved singing and making music, Yes,

968
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: she might have, but she would not have worked as

969
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 2: hard as they made her work given the choice, because

970
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: she wanted to get married and she wanted to get

971
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 2: pregnant and you know, the keeping her working. I think

972
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 2: maybe if you attribute good motives like they thought, oh

973
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 2: this will be good for her, it'll be help for

974
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 2: her to keep working. But if you attribute the worst

975
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: motives to them, it was so that they could keep

976
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: earning at the highest rate possible by drawing profits on

977
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: her working and sitting around Brittany is not going to

978
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: make them as much money.

979
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, some of the stuff in the documentary of people

980
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 4: talking about how she needed to work to make a

981
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 4: certain amount of money or whatever really stressed me out.

982
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 4: Like we were saying before you got here that it

983
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 4: felt like a horror movie, like someone is taking over

984
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 4: your life, is making all of your decisions for you,

985
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 4: and is forcing you. I mean, like again, yes, it

986
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 4: seems like she really loves what she does, So I'm

987
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 4: not saying that she didn't love what she does, but

988
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 4: like kind of seemed like she just didn't have a choice.

989
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: Though, now, let's like put.

990
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 5: The lotion in the basket level crazy, like her dad

991
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 5: is like taking her skin and wearing her and being like.

992
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 2: She literally didn't have a choice. No, you're exactly right,

993
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: she truly had no choice. She was in the eyes

994
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: of the law like a child and had no rights

995
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 2: and could make no decisions on her own, and they

996
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 2: controlled the entire environment and everything she knew and thought

997
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 2: was based on She was sheltered, She was kept away

998
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: from information that could have helped her, and she only

999
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 2: knew what they wanted her to know because she didn't

1000
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 2: have access to the phone and the internet, and so,

1001
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: in a very culty way, yes, she was cut off

1002
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 2: from the outside world and all the decisions were made

1003
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 2: for her.

1004
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, can you talk more about that, Like, what are

1005
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 4: some of the things she was not allowed to do

1006
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 4: that didn't make sense?

1007
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: Well, I mean one of the main things. And she

1008
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: in her really powerful testimony from that summer of twenty

1009
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 2: twenty one when she spoke to the court, you know,

1010
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: she talked specifically about how they had put an IUD

1011
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: in her, and she Brittany has always wanted to have

1012
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: more kids. It's you know, she loved being a mom,

1013
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: she loved having kids. She wanted to have more kids.

1014
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 2: After the boys say what we will about the choices

1015
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: of partners and how that might have played out if

1016
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: she had had kids with them, but nonetheless her choice right,

1017
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: and of course they didn't want her to get pregnant

1018
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: and she was forced to have an IUD implanted. I

1019
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 2: don't know in any other conservatorship situation if some other

1020
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: person like if that, if that would ever be allowed,

1021
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 2: and I worry that it would be, you know, y

1022
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 2: with someone else who had been deemed to lack the

1023
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: capacity where they would say, well, we don't want or

1024
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: if they could be forced to have an abortion if

1025
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 2: they got pregnant that they didn't want to have, Like

1026
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 2: I fear that that that that might be true for

1027
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: anyone in that situation.

1028
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1029
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 4: So I'm Brittany, I'm living in I'm living in my

1030
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 4: house and I have no phone and if I want

1031
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 4: to go to the store to buy my In the documentary.

1032
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: There was like she couldn't. She said, you couldn't go to.

1033
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 4: The store to buy her kids some books, Like she

1034
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 4: would have to ask for permission and wait for the

1035
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 4: money and wait for approval to just do basic human

1036
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 4: things to go for a drive. It just seems so extreme,

1037
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 4: Like there's levels of conservatorships, like there could be financial

1038
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 4: conservatorships or whatever, but like to not be able to

1039
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 4: do anything anything.

1040
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think yes, from legal experts

1041
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: I've read talking about this, they say that someone who

1042
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: presented like Brittany, who was capable of working to the

1043
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 2: level that she was visibly capable of working, would never

1044
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: quote unquote have the courte approve of conservatorship. This this

1045
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: intense and this extreme that no normal quote quote person

1046
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 2: would have had this this strict kind of stuff imposed

1047
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 2: on them. But again, it goes back to this sort

1048
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 2: of like we've objectified her beyond comparison to a point

1049
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 2: where it's like, oh, but this is this is different,

1050
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 2: though this is different. One of the fucked up though,

1051
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 2: like double standards, was that at the beginning of the conservatorship,

1052
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: it was like, we can't get insurance on a tour

1053
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 2: if she's not in a conservatorship. That was some of

1054
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: what her family said. We only did it because the

1055
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 2: only way to get insurance on a tour is to

1056
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: put her in a conservatorship. But if she again, if

1057
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: she needs a conservatorship, then should she be touring?

1058
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, her stress full thing in the world. To

1059
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: go on a tour. That's not good for your mental health. No,

1060
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: I mean that's a tour is like people crack on tour.

1061
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

1062
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 4: Except financially, Jamie was making money as her conservator that

1063
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 4: he would not be making if he was not her conservator.

1064
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 4: And so what do you think the goal was of

1065
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 4: the level of restriction for him, Like, what did that achieve?

1066
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: I think a combination of making sure that nothing threatened

1067
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: the conservatorship, i e. If she's left alone with someone

1068
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: from the outside, they could fight for her to get

1069
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 2: free if she has enough time with someone. This is

1070
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 2: why they made all her boyfriends sign a very extensive contract,

1071
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 2: you know, background checks and then they would have to

1072
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: sign a contract was super extensive that would give you

1073
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 2: would have access to they would have access to the

1074
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: person's email, you know, because anything that might threaten the

1075
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 2: ongoing nature of the conservatorship and the ongoing profit they

1076
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: were trying to avoid. So that's some of the restrictions

1077
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: are that some of the restrictions are and this is

1078
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 2: my opinion, you know, to punish her just to be cruel,

1079
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 2: purely for the sake of cruelty.

1080
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: Maybe her dad was jealous.

1081
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there is just a lot. I think

1082
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 2: there is a lot in there.

1083
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 5: He wanted to He actually wanted to be Britney Spears.

1084
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 5: It's the creepiest thing I've ever heard.

1085
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 4: It's so culty in that, like, you know, that's exactly

1086
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 4: what cult leaders do. You can't talk to people on

1087
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 4: the outside. They're evil, You can't. I'm going to restrict

1088
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 4: your information. I'm going to prevent you from talking to

1089
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 4: anybody because they might lead you to question the power

1090
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 4: that I have over your life. And nothing should be

1091
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 4: allowed to threaten that power. So no, you can't have

1092
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 4: friends we don't approve of.

1093
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 5: And my power is permanent and forever, forever to eternity.

1094
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1095
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, to an extent that to any outsider seems where

1096
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: why would you? Why would you treat people that way

1097
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 2: who are so in a cult, so devoted to you?

1098
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 2: You know, at least with Brittany and Jamie, there was

1099
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: this like, oh, you're pushing back, you're rebelling, and so

1100
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 2: now I'm punishing you, and you're rebelling and so now

1101
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: I'm punishing you, kind of vicious cycle. Yeah, so how

1102
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: did she?

1103
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: Are you ready for this? Yeah?

1104
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 4: For the freedom question? You want to ask your vanilla question?

1105
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 4: I do, but I don't know if it's crazy.

1106
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 2: I'm here.

1107
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 5: I love a crazy question, Okay, And if you don't

1108
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 5: answer what does Britney spirits smell like? Because I imagine

1109
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 5: it's like vanilla and a hint of I don't know,

1110
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 5: Victoria's secret perfume or something beautiful.

1111
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that question. Oh good, Yes, And I

1112
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: feel like an asshole that I don't really remember or

1113
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 2: that it didn't rate with me enough to retain an

1114
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 2: old factory nothing not, I mean everything about her during

1115
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 2: the first portion of of like my encounters with her

1116
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: was super wholesome and cute and exactly what you would

1117
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 2: would exactly what you are, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and

1118
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 2: just like messy ponytail and like comfy but cute outfit

1119
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: and like, you know, this isn't an answer to your question,

1120
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 2: but it's a very My favorite cute Britney story is

1121
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: like on occasion when I was interviewing her, and Felicia,

1122
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 2: her famous assistant also adorable, yeah, had gone to get

1123
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 2: Britney wanted quiz Nos. She wanted quiz Nos, and Felice

1124
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 2: went and got her her favorite sandwich from quiz Nos

1125
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: and it comes back. And they had asked if I

1126
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: want anything, I did, and I was just there to

1127
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: do an interview and Brittany's eating sandwich and She's like,

1128
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, it's so good. You want to bite

1129
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 2: And I was like, I'm okay, I'm not going to

1130
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 2: bite your sandwich. Britney spears, you know. She was just like,

1131
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: you have to it's so good, you have to have

1132
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 2: a bit, you have to have a bunch. And she

1133
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 2: made me take a bite of her quiz nose.

1134
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, how was it?

1135
00:57:57,880 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 2: It was yummy? But I was also just I was

1136
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: just like, wow, like that's how. That's so sweet, like

1137
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 2: just normal and Brittany Jean, Yes, I'll take a bite

1138
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 2: of your quiz nose if you insists.

1139
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 5: Oh my god, quis nos has never gotten such a great.

1140
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I need one right now. I'm like,

1141
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: what what.

1142
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 3: Is quiz nos? Yeah? Okay, that that was all I

1143
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 3: needed to know about that. You can go to the

1144
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 3: final question. Okay, are we all talking like Brittany now? Well?

1145
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 4: Oh, by the way, I wrote a Britney song in

1146
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen. What was happening with her in twenty thirteen?

1147
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 2: Dear, Oh my gosh, I don't know.

1148
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,959
Speaker 1: It was her best year. It was the Smurfs two era.

1149
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 2: I do have one other very cute, funny Britney story

1150
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: if you have time for it, which is when we

1151
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 2: were talking about trying to do a memoir. So I

1152
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 2: had a couple of like meetups with her, kind of

1153
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 2: just us, and she was in New York and I

1154
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 2: was at her hotel and the TV was on while

1155
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: we were chatting, and American Idol had just finished, and

1156
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: at that time, House, you know, the medical drama would

1157
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: come on after and you know the opening credits, and

1158
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,919
Speaker 2: that had that as attack tear Drop is the theme

1159
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: song is playing, and it's classic medical drama visuals where

1160
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 2: it's like pages from the anatomy book and X rays

1161
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: and stuff, and Brittany's like all scrunched up, head tilted,

1162
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:16,439
Speaker 2: like confused Britney face, and she's like, she's like, why

1163
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 2: are they Why are they showing skeletons? Skeletons? And I

1164
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: was like, oh, because House is coming on. She's like huh.

1165
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: She's still sort of like what And I was like, oh,

1166
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: you know, it's like a medical drama and she's still like,

1167
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 2: all right, but why skeletons? Though I love you, I

1168
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 2: love you, I've gotten to the end of the why

1169
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 2: chain of answers. I don't know why.

1170
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: Because they're in the body.

1171
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: I don't know why skeletons though.

1172
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 4: Cute.

1173
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, I love knowing that.

1174
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, how did so how did you finally get free

1175
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 4: after it was it thirteen years?

1176
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, well, I guess the series of events my

1177
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 2: understanding of the series of events. You know, there's a

1178
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 2: couple of versions. One version is the dad Jamie was

1179
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 2: sick and that that was causing Britney to stress and

1180
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: that this catalyzed a series of things. The other version

1181
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 2: of the story is that Brittany they were talking about

1182
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: another Vegas show, the show was supposed to end, she

1183
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 2: didn't want to do anymore, and when she found out

1184
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 2: that they were planning more, she started to quote unquote

1185
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 2: act out, i e. Say, I don't want to do it.

1186
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it. And so in order

1187
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 2: to punish her for that, she was committed into this

1188
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 2: rehab where she was, as she's talked about, given lithium

1189
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:37,919
Speaker 2: and really just you know, medically restrained. And that's when

1190
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: you know, there was this sort of the information leaked

1191
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 2: that she had been put in this rehab. That and

1192
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 2: this is when a lot of the Free Britney movement

1193
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 2: that had been going on for years started to surge

1194
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: and public awareness of it started to surge, and so

1195
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 2: in spring of twenty nineteen, everyone was talking about what's

1196
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 2: going on with Britney. Wait a minute. All of a

1197
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: sudden people started to quest and wait a minute, this

1198
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 2: is this okay? That she's in this conservatorship. You know,

1199
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 2: all these years later is some you know, attitudes change

1200
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 2: and people were starting to open their eyes to like,

1201
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 2: maybe this is too restrictive or maybe me I'm sitting

1202
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 2: over there, I'm just like, yeah, hello, I been saying this,

1203
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 2: saying this in two thousand and eight. But it's great

1204
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 2: that it was fans and the public and this online

1205
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 2: movement of people who really brought it home as much

1206
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 2: as there were other factors. Whether it was just the

1207
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 2: timing and you know, the New York Times documentary kicked

1208
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 2: open a door certainly, and just all of the renewed

1209
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: focus on it, and eventually, you know, Rosengart getting in

1210
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 2: there and really advocating for her. All of these things

1211
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 2: led to it. But I think the public pressure from

1212
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 2: Free Brittany is a huge part of why the same

1213
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: judge who for years had been rubber stamping it to

1214
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 2: continue finally you know undertook to end and Jamie the

1215
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: ACLU were like, we support Brittany. And finally Jamie, who

1216
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: has been in failing health and had been like said okay, yeah,

1217
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: I'll step down. And so it just then momentum finally

1218
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 2: built toward it ending, you know that fall. Wow, and

1219
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: her testimony, right, her testimony was so powerful, so powerful?

1220
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And what did it feel like when you

1221
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: found out?

1222
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: I mean just crying, happy, thrilled. Working on the documentary

1223
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 2: that I was a part of Britney Versus Spears, Like,

1224
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 2: was so emotional and intense and traumatic and scary but fulfilling.

1225
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 2: And so there were so many moments. I mean, her

1226
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 2: testimony just just broke me, you know, for sure, Like yeah,

1227
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: but and when Jamie stepped down, I was just like,

1228
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: I think it's happening. I think it's happening. You know,

1229
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: that was major moment. But yeah, I definitely cried a

1230
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 2: lot of tears of joy for her when it ended.

1231
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 4: Yeah. I hope it sheds a light for people on

1232
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 4: how conservatorships can be abused.

1233
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: I like, would that we could all have a.

1234
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 4: Free Prinney movement if you know, if somebody is being

1235
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 4: controlled to that degree when they shouldn't be.

1236
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: But I'm so.

1237
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 4: I mean, thank God, thank God for all those fans

1238
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 4: and podcasts and journalists and people like you like fighting

1239
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 4: for that for so long.

1240
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope we don't do it to her again,

1241
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 2: you know. I hope that people will just take a

1242
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 2: step back when they're looking at some something she puts

1243
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 2: online and ask themselves before they say, what's what's wrong

1244
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: with her? Or think that thought, to just pause and

1245
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 2: imagine it's your kooky cousin or you know, it's just

1246
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: someone not Britney TM, you know, and think like maybe

1247
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 2: just maybe she should just be free to be her

1248
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 2: and we've gotten enough, We've extracted enough from her at

1249
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 2: this point. Let's just let her live her life comfortably

1250
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 2: however she wants.

1251
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: M Well, that answered. It's my next question, which was

1252
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: what do you wish for her going forward? But I

1253
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: like that answer.

1254
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 4: Can you just tell us where people can find your

1255
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 4: work at, both with this documentary and others.

1256
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, the documentary is on Netflix. It's called Britney Versus

1257
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 2: Spears and it's still there. It's there from twenty twenty one.

1258
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: And I have a podcast called LSQ, which is like

1259
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 2: the phonetic version of my last name, and it's you know,

1260
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 2: long form interviews with music artists, and it's in all

1261
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 2: the different places you find podcasts. And then I also

1262
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 2: am a host on SERIOUSXM, on Serious XMU and on

1263
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 2: the Spectrum every damn day.

1264
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: Hell Aiaz, thank you so much for joining us, Thanks

1265
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 1: for having me. Wow wow Wow.

1266
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 4: Indeed, Megan, I think that the question today is whether

1267
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 4: you would want to have the level of stardom and

1268
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 4: extreme celebrity that Britney Spears has had in her life.

1269
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 5: Would I join the cult of stardom?

1270
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely?

1271
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 4: No. Really, what if this podcast got so big that

1272
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 4: it was the I guess podcast that had ever existed,

1273
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 4: you still say no, Well, I.

1274
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 5: Don't think a super big podcast is ever going to

1275
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 5: have the level of people freaking out that a pop

1276
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 5: star has.

1277
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: That would be what scares me.

1278
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 5: I do want to be successful, but I really value

1279
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 5: being invisible.

1280
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1281
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 4: You know, my roommate and I were just talking about.

1282
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 4: She was just saying how much she loves going to

1283
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 4: the coffee shop and not getting dressed up because it's

1284
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 4: like nobody can see her and that's like such a

1285
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 4: nice anonymous feeling. And I do think we take that

1286
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 4: for granted as people who are not megastars, because if

1287
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 4: you do switch over and get to that point like yeah,

1288
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 4: then suddenly everyone has an opinion on any little thing

1289
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 4: you said.

1290
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 1: Making a mistake is like you're fucked. Yeah, you just.

1291
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 4: Don't get the same grace that you would give like

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01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 4: a friend, you know, and yeah, just it's a level

1293
01:05:55,480 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 4: of scrutiny that seems really scary, and yeah, stalkers and like,

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01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 4: but I also want to be successful obviously, but I

1295
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 4: want to be successful, I think, like in a very

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01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 4: specific way.

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01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 5: Sam, But yeah, it is that balance of like I

1298
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 5: want to be successful, I want to live up to

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01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:19,919
Speaker 5: my potential. I also want to run my errands and

1300
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 5: not worry that somebody's going to take a picture of

1301
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 5: me and be like, she looks like shit.

1302
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: I also don't want that much power.

1303
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 4: That's too scary if like if like yeah, thousands or

1304
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 4: god forbid, millions of people like listen to what you say,

1305
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 4: and you what if you say the wrong thing?

1306
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: What if you guide them in the wrong direction? That's terrifying.

1307
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 4: You know, Like having influences is great for championing, you know,

1308
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 4: important issues, but then also like we're all imperfect and

1309
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 4: like what if I.

1310
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: Go if my influence wrong, Like that's terrifying, right.

1311
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 5: I guess that's important to remember is that you know,

1312
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 5: everybody's opinions are ever evolving. So even if you are

1313
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 5: a super fan of somebody, maybe like give them the

1314
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 5: room to change and don't completely attire your identity too

1315
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 5: something that might not feel right to.

1316
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 4: You, or really anything, any one thing. Any tire your

1317
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 4: identity to one single thing. That's the danger zone. Oh

1318
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 4: there it is there, it is, thank you a danger zone.

1319
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yep, yep, yep.

1320
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 5: Always have a large group of celebrities that you are

1321
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 5: obsessed with.

1322
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, be a super fan of like ten people

1323
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 4: and not just one. Y'all, thank you so much for

1324
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 4: spending another week with us. As always, remember to rate

1325
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 4: us five stars. Go get some march if you want.

1326
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 1: Exactly right store dot com. Exactly right store dot com.

1327
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 5: We say we don't want to be megastars, but we

1328
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 5: do want to see you wearing our march.

1329
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: So we're having cognitive doesn't.

1330
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 4: It for the special club of our our fans, the unique,

1331
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 4: small special club.

1332
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 5: Yes, and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch

1333
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 5: out for red flags.

1334
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: And never ever trusts me. Bye.

1335
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 4: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Lola.

1336
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 5: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.

1337
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 1: Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1338
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 5: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1339
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 5: is Patrick Kuttner.

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01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1341
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:27,440
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark

1342
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 4: and Daniel Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at

1343
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 4: trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1344
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 5: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1345
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 5: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1346
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 4: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1347
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts