Speaker 1: Except they said no, no, multiple personalities. There isn't a
Speaker 1: healthy version. What And I thought, hey, wait wait, wait
Speaker 1: wait wait, maybe there is. Hello and welcome to the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome doctor Jim Fatoman on the show.
Speaker 1: Jim is a psychologist writer in Wecker who has been
Speaker 1: pioneering psychedelic research since the nineteen sixties. He's recognized as
Speaker 1: America's wisest and most respected authority on psychedelics and their use.
Speaker 1: Jim received his bachelor and doctor degrees from Harvard and Stanford, respectively.
Speaker 1: Apart from psychedelics, he's also been involved in researching healthy
Speaker 1: and multiplicity for over twenty years. His newest book with
Speaker 1: Jordan Gruber is called Your Symphony of Selves. Discover and
Speaker 1: understand more of who we are. In this episode, I
Speaker 1: talked to Jim about multiple selves. The DSM says that
Speaker 1: having multiple personalities a disorder, but doctor Fataman challenges this notion.
Speaker 1: In fact, he believes that the opposite is the case.
Speaker 1: The multiplicity of selves is both normal and healthy. It's
Speaker 1: not about having one super self, but unifying the different
Speaker 1: parts of who we are. We also discuss psychedelics, it's
Speaker 1: effects on mental health and how Abraham Maslow would have
Speaker 1: viewed these mind altering substances. It was an incredible opportunity
Speaker 1: to chat with Jim. I respect him so much, and
Speaker 1: he's one of the few living people who actually knew
Speaker 1: Abraham Maslow personally. In fact, Abe asked him to teach
Speaker 1: in his place when he went to Menwell Park during
Speaker 1: the last couple of years of his life. So this
Speaker 1: was a really deeply personal episode for me, and I
Speaker 1: think you'll be inspired as well. So, without further ado,
Speaker 1: I bring you Jim Fatimin. At the moment, I'm getting
Speaker 1: a little rush. You may know Michael Pollam has a
Speaker 1: series out of course. Yeah, so I'm in the first
Speaker 1: one oh Netflix for a couple of minutes and maybe
Speaker 1: two minutes total. But I'm going very sweet notes from
Speaker 1: people I haven't heard from in a decade, So congrats. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and everyone I know says you look really healthy. In
Speaker 1: that you look very healthy. Right now, I'm staring at you.
Speaker 1: I am it is you know that you get to
Speaker 1: a certain age and there's only one variable, which is
Speaker 1: your health, which is you know. Ever, some mornings I
Speaker 1: wake up and I think, God, I am this age.
Speaker 1: It feels like it's tolerable. How old are you now?
Speaker 1: Eighty three? My god? And I know how that sounds.
Speaker 1: It sounds like that to me too, you know. I
Speaker 1: hear somebody eighty three, I think some old fart. How
Speaker 1: do you feel inside? How old? Well, it's an interesting question.
Speaker 1: And I once asked my eighty five year old father
Speaker 1: and my ninety one year old uncle, Clifton Fatima, that question.
Speaker 1: And I was, I don't know, you're sixty or something.
Speaker 1: And my uncle said he was seven and a half.
Speaker 1: And I said, which is And what he said is
Speaker 1: he was learning fastest at that age, and I think
Speaker 1: what he was also saying he was starting to have
Speaker 1: an identity. And my father said he was about twenty
Speaker 1: or twenty one, and at that age he left Brooklyn
Speaker 1: and spent I think maybe nine months in Paris, which
Speaker 1: was like, you know, total mind blow. And I think
Speaker 1: he was also getting more, you know, more sensation and
Speaker 1: information per minute during that time. Yeah. So the answer
Speaker 1: is I'm a very healthy age. And it sometimes puzzles
Speaker 1: me that I'm in this old box. I know, Well,
Speaker 1: you get a lot more mileage, you know, you're not
Speaker 1: done yet. Well, what's nice? And you know, as you know,
Speaker 1: if you're each age you get older, you get more
Speaker 1: kind of extra years in the kind of statistics because
Speaker 1: the statistics, you know, all the young people have died
Speaker 1: and so forth. Yeah, if you make it to ninety,
Speaker 1: there's a good chance you'll meet ninety one exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: And you're looking good too. Well, thank you. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate you saying that I really enjoyed your new book
Speaker 1: and we have lots of common interests in it. Well,
Speaker 1: you said something on Twitter the other day, and I thought,
Speaker 1: that's the clearest definition of what we're trying to say
Speaker 1: that I've seen. I know, so you're you are aligning
Speaker 1: yourself with truth, but it's a it's a a stinct minority. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you saw the follow up
Speaker 1: tweet I gave people linked to your book to buy.
Speaker 1: And also that very nice person said I want to
Speaker 1: grow up to be Jim Adam. I said that, Yes,
Speaker 1: you are really cool, Jim, you really are. You've had
Speaker 1: a very long career and you've done some really cool
Speaker 1: and interesting, fascinating things. What's it like to see this
Speaker 1: psychedelic renaissance right now? Well, I want to hear how
Speaker 1: you what you think of it, and then I want
Speaker 1: to I'm curious what you think, abrat your friend Abraham Maslow,
Speaker 1: if he was alive today, what he'd think of it. Well,
Speaker 1: it's really a revival, okay. Remember the Renaissance was a
Speaker 1: influx of really new information into Europe. We're like, when
Speaker 1: you get to see the Michael Pollen series, I think
Speaker 1: two out of the four start with the indigenous use.
Speaker 1: You know, so I have been called the father of microdosing,
Speaker 1: but the people who I work with, we now say
Speaker 1: of modern microdosing. So it's wonderful. It's wonderful to see psychedelics. Well,
Speaker 1: we are so mainstream that the New York Times Crossword
Speaker 1: puzzled two days ago number four down clue drug that
Speaker 1: can be microdosed three letters. Wow, And it's everything positive
Speaker 1: and everything things we never thought of. Capitalism coming in
Speaker 1: to screw it up, and they will a lot. But
Speaker 1: as I've said for many years, mushrooms do not know
Speaker 1: they're illegal, and they also won't know when they're patented.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I'm very happy to see it. That's
Speaker 1: very wonderful. And you know, on the micro dose side
Speaker 1: of the house, the world has not yet begun to
Speaker 1: see what's possible. I like micro dosing. I prefer that
Speaker 1: it's just more my style. Do you still microdose regularly now?
Speaker 1: And then trying a little elixir that a friend of
Speaker 1: mine made who was into Chinese medicine, and that's kind
Speaker 1: of an energy elixir, and I had noticed I haven't
Speaker 1: my micro dose for a couple of months because of it.
Speaker 1: But it's ideal. It's ideal for first drafts. That's it's
Speaker 1: a hint. Well, what do you think about those who
Speaker 1: want to uh meek for pharmaceutical purposes for healing, They
Speaker 1: want to bottle this without the USA genetic effects high doses. Yeah,
Speaker 1: those are the same people that say, don't use viagra.
Speaker 1: We have a new drug where you'll just have erections
Speaker 1: and orgasms, but no pleasure. You don't have to have
Speaker 1: any right, there's no emotional over no emotional disturbances. I
Speaker 1: think it's I think it. I think it shows a
Speaker 1: kind of materialism where people literally do not have any
Speaker 1: idea of the of what happens during a during a
Speaker 1: serious psychedelic experience. And there's a term for it in
Speaker 1: in psychotherapy. It's called insight not found by rattling your
Speaker 1: neuro it's it's a little bit fore like the people
Speaker 1: who said, all right, guys, we have discovered the part
Speaker 1: of the brain that where dreams come from. And I say,
Speaker 1: that's terrific. Now, how do you differentiate between a sex
Speaker 1: stream and a nightmare? And how do you difference between
Speaker 1: a wise dream that you know? And the answer is
Speaker 1: they have the famous idea because that's consciousness is not
Speaker 1: you know, they don't don't like consciousness, they like brains. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not a fan of reductionism. I take it. I'm
Speaker 1: a fan of simplicity and simplification and parsonally, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's an interesting question because microdosing, in a
Speaker 1: sense we have a lot of the same results as
Speaker 1: the high dose studies, you know, without any excitement. But
Speaker 1: I'm beginning to understand why and why microdosing is much
Speaker 1: more exciting to me for physical issues and for and
Speaker 1: for serious mental illness. That's where I find the excitement.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll just give you my one one miracle.
Speaker 1: You'll only get one miracle per show. Here's the miracle
Speaker 1: that I'm looking at. Woman diabetic fourteen years, same medication,
Speaker 1: totally stable, life is fine. And for other reasons, she microdoses,
Speaker 1: and she's working with what's called a microdose coach, so
Speaker 1: she's in touch with him, and within a month she's
Speaker 1: using twenty percent of her insulin dose. Wow. Wow, right,
Speaker 1: see that's wow. How does the mind affect the body
Speaker 1: in that way? You and I both know because we
Speaker 1: read it, that diet is totally physical. It's totally your
Speaker 1: bancreous et cetera, et cetera. And we don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of pharmaceuticals that say take this and you're pancreas
Speaker 1: will be more cheerful. Ok. Well, what we do have
Speaker 1: with microdoc and let's let it go with that. It
Speaker 1: looks like it rebalances things that are in disequilibrium, and
Speaker 1: it may do that by being a different level of
Speaker 1: anti inflammatory. But I don't understand enough about some of
Speaker 1: the physical illnesses that I've got cases of to really
Speaker 1: understand it. It's so interesting, gosh, so interesting. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: just so curious about this idea of multiple cells. And
Speaker 1: right off the bat, I want you to differentiate between
Speaker 1: DSM level multiple cells and healthy disassociation and the pathology
Speaker 1: called multiple personality. Can you differentiate that between and what's
Speaker 1: healthy multiple cells? When I took my abnormal course, what
Speaker 1: I was told is the reason you're studying the is
Speaker 1: because all of these are kind of exaggerations of normal things.
Speaker 1: So that too anxious, too sad to disorganize. So forth,
Speaker 1: and therefore, even though you're not going to be, you know,
Speaker 1: a clinician, this is helpful to understand human beings. That
Speaker 1: made sense to me, except they said, now, no multiple personalities.
Speaker 1: There isn't a healthy version. What And I thought, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: wait wait wait, maybe there is, And so what it is?
Speaker 1: It turns out that there is, as one would expect
Speaker 1: of any other condition, there's a healthy level of multiplicity
Speaker 1: of understanding the separations within this, within the psyche, and
Speaker 1: there's a pathology version where they are not cooperating, where
Speaker 1: they are actually harming the whole system. So if we
Speaker 1: look upon it as family, as a family, if one
Speaker 1: member of the family is is it is causing trouble
Speaker 1: for everyone, That doesn't mean the family has pathology. It
Speaker 1: means that part. And so there's a common sensess to
Speaker 1: looking at the question of is there inner multiplicity? That's
Speaker 1: the first question. And if there's if inner multiplicity is normal,
Speaker 1: then one would expect an abnormal version of it to
Speaker 1: be visible, and it is. And there are different ways
Speaker 1: of working with pathology of multiplicity, but it's much easier
Speaker 1: if you understand that it's a multiple, it's a problem
Speaker 1: with inner multiplicity, that multiplicity is not a problem. And
Speaker 1: the part of the book that I thought would have
Speaker 1: special interest to you was that that early psychology, especially
Speaker 1: Charcot and Gene and Freud, All and William James, were
Speaker 1: all quite comfortable with understanding that there was what was
Speaker 1: called disassociation, meaning a breakdown in association, and the normal
Speaker 1: of that was association. And their only argument between those
Speaker 1: groups was the clinicians, not surprisingly said it's only found
Speaker 1: in pathology, and William James, who dealt with the real
Speaker 1: world and undergraduates, said no, it's not, it's in everyone,
Speaker 1: because I see in everyone. That was the discussion going
Speaker 1: on until Freud really made his great shift of deciding
Speaker 1: that the sexual stories he was getting from children about parents,
Speaker 1: which we now call sexual abuse, had a serious economic
Speaker 1: problem for him, which is his clients were the children
Speaker 1: of his friends. And so he does this about face
Speaker 1: and says all that sexual memories are now quote fantasies
Speaker 1: and with that went for some reason selves so in
Speaker 1: a funny way, and very near the end of years
Speaker 1: and years and years of working on this, I get this,
Speaker 1: this realization that this is not novel. This is a
Speaker 1: return to where psychology was until Freud kind of took
Speaker 1: it off to the side. Now Young clearly still has
Speaker 1: internal multiplicity and so forth and so on lots of
Speaker 1: other people. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Young did
Speaker 1: some microdosing. Well, you know, highly likely, because every culture
Speaker 1: that we found that has availability of mind changing substances
Speaker 1: uses it, and small doses make obvious common sense. Yes,
Speaker 1: by the way, you never answered what would your friend
Speaker 1: Maslow think today about back because he was a little
Speaker 1: bit skeptical. Did you ever have any personal conversations with
Speaker 1: him about LSD or He was skeptical about a lot
Speaker 1: of things. He was skeptical about almost all Eastern thought,
Speaker 1: And at one point in a new edition of Psychology
Speaker 1: of Being, he was going to put in a footnote
Speaker 1: saying Eastern thought and Taro and all that stuff's a
Speaker 1: bunch of crap. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, And I read
Speaker 1: that because we were flying to the Meninger to Meninger
Speaker 1: for the consciousness kind of conference. And I said, ab,
Speaker 1: I don't think you want to do that. I think
Speaker 1: you have to realize that you may not know anything
Speaker 1: about these things, but some of us do. And wonderfully
Speaker 1: he said, okay, I won't have that footnote. I have
Speaker 1: the transcript of that exact conference and everything you and
Speaker 1: he said, and he mentions that that exact conversation he
Speaker 1: had with you in the conference. Oh goody, that's right.
Speaker 1: You're this wonderful treasure trove of things that I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: I just submitted the Maslow article to the journal last
Speaker 1: correction of correction, so it's pretty much what you read.
Speaker 1: And what Menlo would say is, I mean what we
Speaker 1: saw in Maslow is a kind of optimism and excitement
Speaker 1: for what was going to happen, but that we no
Speaker 1: longer have, We no longer feel optimistic. And he would
Speaker 1: be in a very interesting position because he would be
Speaker 1: fascinated by psychedelics. Bertha would say, you cannot possibly do
Speaker 1: this because you might change, and he would probably microdose
Speaker 1: because he would figure he could read and write better
Speaker 1: with it. Very interesting. The trauma, loss, and uncertainty of
Speaker 1: our world have led many of us to ask life's
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Speaker 1: to a fundamental way of living. To help us all
Speaker 1: address these questions, process what this unique time in human
Speaker 1: history has meant for us personally and collectively an emerge whole.
Speaker 1: I've collaborated with my colleague and dear friend, doctor Jordan Feingeld,
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Speaker 1: a workbook design to guide you on a journey of
Speaker 1: committing to growth and the pursuit of self actualization every day.
Speaker 1: It's chock full of research from humanistic psychology, positive psychology,
Speaker 1: developmental psychology, personality psychology, cognitive science, and neuropsychology, so lots
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Speaker 1: of ourselves and co crete our new normal with a
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Speaker 1: book helps you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay,
Speaker 1: now back to the show thing. A second ago, you
Speaker 1: said you submitted something in about the same form. What
Speaker 1: was you What were you referring to Jim? That was
Speaker 1: the article that was the speech he gave in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty nine. Okay, our audience isn't going to know exactly.
Speaker 1: That's like inside baseball, So yeah, okay Maslow. Maslow finished
Speaker 1: his life with a fellowship from a company in Menlo
Speaker 1: Park that was in the institutional food business. But the
Speaker 1: president of that company was a absolute Maslow fan, and
Speaker 1: he said to Maslow, what would make you happy? And
Speaker 1: he said, if all I could do is read and
Speaker 1: write and create. He said, well, why don't you come
Speaker 1: out here. I will give you an office. I will
Speaker 1: give you a secretary. We all needed them. Then I
Speaker 1: will give you you know, equipment, and I will rent
Speaker 1: you a house nearby. Well, I don't know if much
Speaker 1: of your audience doesn't know what the community around Brandeis
Speaker 1: University is, but it's not as nice as having a
Speaker 1: house with a pool in northern California and being with
Speaker 1: such you know, such excitement and such courtesy and such grace.
Speaker 1: And he gave a talk to people at the company
Speaker 1: about where he saw humanity coming, and it was it's
Speaker 1: magnificently optimistic, and he's really seeing that we could become decent, kind,
Speaker 1: open human beings with each other. And he has a
Speaker 1: lot of evidence that he is finding. He's finding changes
Speaker 1: in the university where students. He says, students are no
Speaker 1: longer just quitting if they don't like the kind of education.
Speaker 1: They're complaining. And he talks about the growth of growth
Speaker 1: centers like Esln Institute, and when he was writing this,
Speaker 1: they were proliferating. Yes, And there's a lot of other
Speaker 1: examples he has. It's what I call it kind of
Speaker 1: strident optimism. Yes, and he and I worked on the
Speaker 1: transcript of that speech, and then I submitted it to
Speaker 1: Look magazine, which was that time there were three major magazines, Time, Life,
Speaker 1: and Look and had each had millions of subscribers, and
Speaker 1: that was a there were major, major forces in the culture.
Speaker 1: I think he wanted me to be part of the
Speaker 1: article because I was friends with the editors we were
Speaker 1: sending it to, so that was its genesis. And then
Speaker 1: it missed their deadline or they didn't want it, and
Speaker 1: it then went into a file drawer, misfiled until a
Speaker 1: year or so ago when a graduate student doing his
Speaker 1: dissertation had me searching for him for various things, and
Speaker 1: I found it and showed it to the Journal of
Speaker 1: Transpersonal Psychology and they're thrilled, and so it will be.
Speaker 1: It will be available soon and it's pure Maslow at
Speaker 1: his at his at his cheerful best. I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love your connection to it. Did
Speaker 1: you ever go and visit him in his his Menoe
Speaker 1: Park swimming pool house? Did you ever go swimming with
Speaker 1: him there? No, I didn't go swimming, but we became
Speaker 1: He had asked me to come to Brandeis a year
Speaker 1: or so earlier where he had a Ford Foundation grant
Speaker 1: to take a year off, and so we became friends
Speaker 1: during that year, and then when he came up to California,
Speaker 1: we were quite friendly. And one of his last projects
Speaker 1: and it ties a little bit into what we're talking about,
Speaker 1: he said, I've really studied, you know, the best in
Speaker 1: human beings for so many years. And he said, I'm
Speaker 1: wondering now about the genesis of what he called evil,
Speaker 1: and it's the genesis of unkindness to each other. And
Speaker 1: what he said is in looking at his grandchildren that
Speaker 1: when there was a single child, there is no kind
Speaker 1: of evil, but as soon as they're is sibling rivalry.
Speaker 1: He said, it's the first time you see people behaving
Speaker 1: in a way that's unkind to each other out of
Speaker 1: whatever those needs are. So that was one of the
Speaker 1: things he was observing, studying thinking about in those last
Speaker 1: couple of years, for sure. But you know, she never
Speaker 1: visited that house. Though I don't remember, I probably visited
Speaker 1: the house because I I there was someone who went
Speaker 1: and did a lot of investigative work to find the
Speaker 1: precise address and to visit that house. And I have
Speaker 1: it eight five to five Lo Messa Drive, Portola Valley, California.
Speaker 1: It was, that's what does that ring a bell? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a neighborhood. Well, now insanely expensive, but then very
Speaker 1: nice houses, yes, very quiet, somewhat hilly neighborhood with a
Speaker 1: lot of views of of you know, trees and grass
Speaker 1: and even more wealthy people on horses. Yes. Well, I
Speaker 1: just sent you in an email pictures of the house,
Speaker 1: so I thought you might get a kicked out of that.
Speaker 1: It's on the market right now for five million dollars.
Speaker 1: So I guess I said it correctly there, Yes you did.
Speaker 1: I can't afford it, but I was like, that'd be
Speaker 1: cool if I bought the house Maslow lived in. But
Speaker 1: I can't afford it. If the American Psychological Association could
Speaker 1: afford it and buy it and make it a Maslow shrine,
Speaker 1: they can probably afford His house in near brandeis a
Speaker 1: lot a lot more easily. Oh yeah, oh that's true.
Speaker 1: That's very true. Okay, So, returning to your book a second,
Speaker 1: you say, we really are different people, or have different minds, parts,
Speaker 1: or personalities in different moments and in different contexts. The
Speaker 1: cells that comprise us are actual, real, independent, and in
Speaker 1: neatly valuable parts of who we are. So does that
Speaker 1: argue against the notion of a real self, because I've
Speaker 1: argued against that notion, and I think we probably see
Speaker 1: eye to eye on that there's really no such thing
Speaker 1: as the real self. You know, if there was a
Speaker 1: real self, then there's a false self, right or anything
Speaker 1: on that. So that's one hint what people say is
Speaker 1: there has to be you know, I really want it
Speaker 1: to be a single self because I feel single. Like
Speaker 1: right now, I feel like I'm Jim Fatiman and I'm
Speaker 1: talking to my friend and it's a little warm out,
Speaker 1: and I am dressed appropriately, you know, so forth and
Speaker 1: so on. But I also when I have a small
Speaker 1: dog at the moment who's not feeling well and he's
Speaker 1: particularly attached to me, and when I pick him up
Speaker 1: and he's feeling sad, this kind of smarty, you know,
Speaker 1: vocabulary educated, literate guy totally is not present. And I'm
Speaker 1: this little mushy person who is so sad and so
Speaker 1: linked into my little dog. It's a total set of
Speaker 1: different behaviors and it's not a change in mood, it's
Speaker 1: a change in state. And let me make it very
Speaker 1: very simple, which is the way people get it most
Speaker 1: easily is you say to people, have you ever argued
Speaker 1: with yourself? Okay? And everybody yeah, And then I say
Speaker 1: who's the other person? And then there's a moment where
Speaker 1: people are aware that they have total memories between all
Speaker 1: those parts. That's healthy, but they behave differently. Most of
Speaker 1: us behave differently when we're with our children. We're quite different.
Speaker 1: In fact, people say, well, I can't be with you.
Speaker 1: I'm still in my work clothes. Okay, so I have
Speaker 1: to change. And I remember when I had a terrible
Speaker 1: client at one point as a consult just a horrible, huge, multinational,
Speaker 1: corrupt corporation, and I really felt unclean when I was
Speaker 1: working there, and it's the only time I would come
Speaker 1: home and take off all my clothes and change before
Speaker 1: kind of being with Dorothy, my wife. It was so obvious,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people, as we've learned during COVID,
Speaker 1: realized that going to work in your bathrobe didn't feel right,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people would change into their work
Speaker 1: clothes to be as we are now, you know, talking
Speaker 1: to each other. So we're used to making those changes.
Speaker 1: We're used to we're used to. There's a wonderful term
Speaker 1: called losing your temper. The reason I like it because
Speaker 1: it means finding your temper. And you say things that
Speaker 1: you would not say otherwise. Well you said them, who
Speaker 1: said them, Well, not the part of you that wouldn't
Speaker 1: say them. Okay. So there's a lot of examples. One
Speaker 1: of the ones that's most obvious is people behave differently
Speaker 1: when they're drunk. No, and they say I'm so ash
Speaker 1: and then in the morning, the one who didn't do
Speaker 1: it says, I'm so ashamed of how I behaved last night,
Speaker 1: when correctly is saying I'm so ashamed when the when
Speaker 1: the drunk part of me behaves like that. So you
Speaker 1: also to see people and yourself. You're much more forgiving
Speaker 1: of yourself for the parts of you that you don't
Speaker 1: that the rest of you don't like. I agree, I've
Speaker 1: noted that. Like you know, when like politicians do something
Speaker 1: corrupt or get or get caught for doing something corrupt,
Speaker 1: that's the key part. They'll be like, that's not who
Speaker 1: I am, that's not that's not who anyone who knows
Speaker 1: me knows. That's really not who the real me. You know.
Speaker 1: It's just like so interesting. You know, people don't seem
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for their whole self. They kind of
Speaker 1: have this authenticity bias where they when you say who's
Speaker 1: the real you, they include the most positive aspects of themselves.
Speaker 1: Is the real them? Yeah? Except people who are depressed.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting to identify with the worst parts or
Speaker 1: the least functional. That is so such a good point. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: so if you're being a therapist and you realize that
Speaker 1: there's first of all, who came to therapy. Okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: let me give you an example with a little bit
Speaker 1: of statistics. The worst known method to help alcoholics is psychotherapy.
Speaker 1: It has about a two percent success rate. And there's like,
Speaker 1: if you look out in the literature, nobody knows okay
Speaker 1: except you and me are going to now know this,
Speaker 1: which is the person who drinks usually likes drinking. The
Speaker 1: person who has a hangover and is sick and wakes
Speaker 1: up guilty does not like drinking. Who do you think
Speaker 1: goes to therapy? Yeah, you don't go to therapy drunk. Well,
Speaker 1: the alcoholic doesn't go to therapy, right right, That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And the wonderful part of if you've ever been to
Speaker 1: an AA, which is a really very powerful and moving
Speaker 1: positive experience. They've worked it out. So the alcoholics shows up.
Speaker 1: You go in and you say, who are you? My
Speaker 1: name is Jim and I'm an alcoholic. That's the line.
Speaker 1: And then what are you there for? Well? Trade stories
Speaker 1: of your alcohol life and you you, if you're recent new,
Speaker 1: you tell this story and it's full of justifications of
Speaker 1: why you're drink and it's not your fault and you
Speaker 1: really don't drink that much, and you know, sure you
Speaker 1: had a hut and run, but hey, you know that
Speaker 1: just happens. And then and then and you say, and
Speaker 1: that's why I'm drinking. And then someone else in the
Speaker 1: group tells the story of their life like five times
Speaker 1: worse than yours, so terribly can hardly imagine it. And
Speaker 1: they end it and saying I've been dry for twelve years.
Speaker 1: So the alcoholics still goes to the AA meetings dry
Speaker 1: or not. And that's why it's a fascinating and very different,
Speaker 1: very different therapeutic mail you than any other we know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the great point, so who do you? You know,
Speaker 1: getting the part of you that needs help helped is
Speaker 1: often difficult. I'm so interested in the integrative functions of
Speaker 1: humans and how you know we we still have a
Speaker 1: coherent sense of self when we walk around, or else
Speaker 1: we would be psychopath pathological, you know. So there are functions,
Speaker 1: executive functions, and things that give us a false sense
Speaker 1: of unity. Sometimes they give us the feeling of identity. Yes,
Speaker 1: see what we I mean if you think of if
Speaker 1: you've been in a relationship with another human being for
Speaker 1: more than a few days, you expect consistency, predictability, and
Speaker 1: someone behaves and you say, how could you do that?
Speaker 1: That isn't the way. You know, You're not like that,
Speaker 1: And they say, you're right, you know, I don't. I
Speaker 1: guess I had this terrible meeting at work and then
Speaker 1: I came home and I actually hit my kid. You know,
Speaker 1: I was beside myself. I love that, Okay, I was.
Speaker 1: I was over here to the side, and we are.
Speaker 1: And what you realize with the person you love most
Speaker 1: in the world is they are not concerned. They are
Speaker 1: often consistent, but they have certain inconsistencies, which is another
Speaker 1: one of theirselves. And once you see that, particularly when
Speaker 1: you see it in yourself, you're much more forgiving. You know,
Speaker 1: we all have a relative for example, that is a
Speaker 1: trouble at family gatherings. Okay, don't talk politics with Uncle Albert.
Speaker 1: We'll hit you with his theory and he won't shut
Speaker 1: up for twenty minutes because once the tape is running
Speaker 1: and Albert is you know this QAnon in person. Stop.
Speaker 1: Okay now, but Uncle Albert's a nice guy most of
Speaker 1: the time if you don't push him into selves that
Speaker 1: aren't great point. In order to support the Psychology podcast,
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Speaker 1: Dash Psychology Dash Podcast. Thanks for your help. From an
Speaker 1: individual differences perspective, there seems to be gross variability among
Speaker 1: people and extent to which they are more even keel
Speaker 1: on a regular basis versus not the most extremes. You have,
Speaker 1: bipolar disorder, you have, you know, things that do get psychopathological.
Speaker 1: But it's linkage to creativity is something that fascinates me
Speaker 1: because I found that the creative mind is the one
Speaker 1: that seems to have more contradictions within themselves that they
Speaker 1: h our, embrace and accept. This was a major theme
Speaker 1: of my book Wire to Create. You know that they
Speaker 1: accepted that, you know, do I contain multitudes? Well then
Speaker 1: I could all you know, well then I could able
Speaker 1: to do? Is the women quote created people have more
Speaker 1: of that attitude. Well, they not only have that attitude,
Speaker 1: they have that awareness. And there's a wonderful quote in
Speaker 1: our book about someone who says, now and then I
Speaker 1: have a board meeting in my mind, and the person
Speaker 1: writing this is some famous essayist says, I actually don't
Speaker 1: say much. I you know, I bring in the pencils
Speaker 1: and pads for people, and maybe bring in coffee. But
Speaker 1: we all just you know, discuss what is an issue
Speaker 1: and what we What we found is the way we
Speaker 1: see mental health. Mental health is when the parts of
Speaker 1: you are in harmony, meaning you're all working together to
Speaker 1: help each other, and the specializations support one another. So
Speaker 1: creative people seem to have a much better grasp at
Speaker 1: how to get there. There's the right self at the
Speaker 1: right time. And if you if you look at there's
Speaker 1: always books about how to writers write, okay, and you
Speaker 1: find out this one's and there's a there's a wonderful
Speaker 1: one where he sharpens like fifteen pencils before he sits
Speaker 1: down at the typewriter. Okay, the ritual he uses to
Speaker 1: get into the writing place, and when he leaves the
Speaker 1: writing place, in a sense, he becomes and he can
Speaker 1: relax and be a different person. And you've written enough
Speaker 1: books to know the feeling of when you're in the
Speaker 1: writer mode and when you wish you work in the
Speaker 1: writer mode. Yeah, and the writer is really not the
Speaker 1: same as many other parts of you. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: great point. You know. It's a very interesting question and
Speaker 1: very deep question. Is it possible to create a single
Speaker 1: super self? It does. Yeah, I'll just ask that question
Speaker 1: then and pause and see what you think. Well, what
Speaker 1: we had to come to my co author and I
Speaker 1: and Jordan Gruber did really, most of the amazing scholarship
Speaker 1: in our book is there's not much evidence for a
Speaker 1: super self. See if you're just I was listening to
Speaker 1: somebody who was asked about do you believe all these
Speaker 1: amazing stories about people in their psychedelic experiences, and he says,
Speaker 1: I believe in the data, so I believe in observation.
Speaker 1: And the problem with the notion of a super self
Speaker 1: has two problems. One is it makes the rest of you,
Speaker 1: which is us, ninety eight percent of the time, even
Speaker 1: if there is a quote super self, inferior, and that's
Speaker 1: not a nice feeling. And it also says, well, I
Speaker 1: don't have to make any improvements because my higher self
Speaker 1: will take you know, will give me great advice. Now
Speaker 1: it turns out that I came up with a fool
Speaker 1: proof test of higher selves. If your higher self is
Speaker 1: your best self, your most integrated self, your wisest self.
Speaker 1: Then you say to someone who tells you that, you say, well,
Speaker 1: what's your favorite what's your highest self favorite restaurant? And
Speaker 1: they after they look at me unkindly because the answer
Speaker 1: came up nothing. I then say, can you tell me
Speaker 1: any attributes of your higher self? Well, what we found
Speaker 1: is there people. Your higher self doesn't have attributes, it
Speaker 1: has like virtues. The point is that the problem for
Speaker 1: what we decided after a lot of discussion is the
Speaker 1: higher self, which also would include angelic beings who guide you,
Speaker 1: which occur in most traditions. The notion that there are
Speaker 1: spirits without bodies that help people. It's all found in
Speaker 1: indigenous people and so forth. There's a lot of things
Speaker 1: you can't cover. What we're trying to do in discussing
Speaker 1: Sells is how do you function better when you're not
Speaker 1: quote in your higher self? Which is most of the time,
Speaker 1: it's all the time. But the question again is how
Speaker 1: do you harmonize the parts that you have? And when
Speaker 1: we talk about personal growth, for instance, someone says I
Speaker 1: want to lose weight. Okay, Now here's a piece of
Speaker 1: chocolate cake, and they say, is that really good chocolate cake?
Speaker 1: And you say it's fantastic, and they say, well, I'd
Speaker 1: like a small slice, and then they say, then another
Speaker 1: part of them says, I'd like another small slice. And
Speaker 1: one of you knows that you are just looking at
Speaker 1: the difference between two and five hundred calories and those
Speaker 1: two hands one that goes back from the cake and
Speaker 1: the other that goes forward are a beautiful view of ourselves.
Speaker 1: You know, I think, I mean, Saint Paul says, why
Speaker 1: do we do that which we would not do? And
Speaker 1: the answer is, Saint Paul, I got a book for
Speaker 1: you because that's the question, which is why do we
Speaker 1: do things that parts of us don't approve of? It's
Speaker 1: a very straightforward question. The book you have for them
Speaker 1: is your book Symphony Yourselves? Yes, yeah, Saint Paul says,
Speaker 1: I'd like it. Yeah, can you you have that an
Speaker 1: aramaic You're funny, You're funny. It just seems like not
Speaker 1: all of ourselves are equally weighted. They're not equally prominent
Speaker 1: in our in our personality structure. It does feel experientially
Speaker 1: like there is a me that is more authentic, at
Speaker 1: least in the sense that they're like if I do
Speaker 1: something or there's a side of me that likes something,
Speaker 1: that there is another me that's bigger than that, that's like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want to want to like that.
Speaker 1: There's a there's like a higher order want. Oh, there's
Speaker 1: selves that have a higher morality than others. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: is that? What is that? What it is? Okay, that's
Speaker 1: the but that's the internal dialogue. We have. An internal
Speaker 1: dialogue is what I'm talking about. Okay, internal dialogue. You
Speaker 1: gotta have to you know, you don't have an you know. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're all all your parts, are you? They feel like
Speaker 1: they all feel like Scott because they are. Okay, you're not.
Speaker 1: You don't feel like somebody's you know, down the street.
Speaker 1: You say, gee, there I go. But they don't all equally.
Speaker 1: They don't all equally feel like Scott, I guess, is
Speaker 1: my point. Well, they do when you're in them. Okay.
Speaker 1: If I'm about to do something and I know it's wrong, Okay,
Speaker 1: I know it's wrong, and the part of me that
Speaker 1: wants to do it says, I know it's wrong too,
Speaker 1: but I don't care. Those parts are not equal or unequal,
Speaker 1: They're different. So you've got to walk out that the
Speaker 1: parts of you that are kind of moral don't become
Speaker 1: self righteous and prissy, because we know that in a
Speaker 1: lot of psychopathology, a lot of psychotherapy, what people say
Speaker 1: is I am always putting myself down, and I love
Speaker 1: that because notice how many people are in that that sentence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. The language really is a good hint on
Speaker 1: what's going on? So let's let's go back and say,
Speaker 1: why do we have this whole notion of a single self? Anyway,
Speaker 1: it's perhaps it's because of monotheism. So monotheism is this
Speaker 1: very very it's kind of the notion there's only one divinity,
Speaker 1: except if you look at every religious system that has
Speaker 1: only one divinity. He's got a lot of friends, he's
Speaker 1: got a lot of assistance, he's got a lot of servants,
Speaker 1: he's got I mean, there's people don't know this. Outside
Speaker 1: of Catholicism. There are nine levels of angels. Now, if
Speaker 1: you're a you know, if you're a single being, what
Speaker 1: do you have nine levels of angels? What's going on?
Speaker 1: So monotheism, however, the notion is that there's a oneness
Speaker 1: and therefore you have to stuff everything in so that
Speaker 1: the composite of ourselves. Again, the notion is if you're
Speaker 1: a single being, you would be consistent. Okay, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I watch it again. I have two little dogs
Speaker 1: and they're rescue so they have had some childhood trauma,
Speaker 1: all right. And my one little littlest one, the one
Speaker 1: that was zeal Now is probably we all agree and
Speaker 1: we have a lot of dogs in our lives, the
Speaker 1: most loving little dog we've ever met, and now and
Speaker 1: then something happens with him and this incredibly vicious, little
Speaker 1: snarling thing with these little sharp teeth appears. It's really scary. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's real. Now. We rarely see it with each other,
Speaker 1: but his way, and it's very common in pathology. How
Speaker 1: do you handle fear? We know a lot of people
Speaker 1: turn it into anger so they don't have to look
Speaker 1: at it. So he does that do when he sees
Speaker 1: a large dog, he wants to hurt them, and some
Speaker 1: large dogs kind of look down at him and excuse me,
Speaker 1: what are you doing around my ankles? If you don't move,
Speaker 1: I'm going to wipe you out. Man. So we see
Speaker 1: even in animals this differentiation, and it's it's it's fascinating
Speaker 1: when that when they switch, because it's as different as
Speaker 1: having a different a different animal. Do you think that
Speaker 1: the more integrated a person is in the sense that
Speaker 1: you're talking about, where all these things are and more
Speaker 1: harmony with each other, that the person comes across as
Speaker 1: more a comfortable in their own body, be more more cohesive,
Speaker 1: more congruent. Do you think that we can get there
Speaker 1: to a certain degree. Right, I can give you one
Speaker 1: example of someone who seems to be a single self,
Speaker 1: and then i'll give you I'll start with the one
Speaker 1: that we see as unified. If you if you ever
Speaker 1: listened or watched the Dalai Lama. One of the things
Speaker 1: about the Dalai Lama is he laughs at himself, okay,
Speaker 1: and it's a clue of mental health. I love that.
Speaker 1: At one point there's a film about him and he says,
Speaker 1: you know, I fix Swiss clocks, and then he laughs
Speaker 1: and he says, it's wonderful to be able to fix something. Okay.
Speaker 1: Now he's partly aware that he's got other things quote
Speaker 1: more important, but that's part of him, and he's amused
Speaker 1: when that part of him, you know, needs to be
Speaker 1: dealt with. Now. A person who is totally unified, we
Speaker 1: would expect to behave absolutely the same in every situation,
Speaker 1: regardless of the externals. Okay. And if one looks at
Speaker 1: the ex President Trump, the thing that is most clear
Speaker 1: about him is he treats everything the same. Something someone
Speaker 1: has a minor slight to him, like they take away
Speaker 1: his food a minute before he's finished, or we're about
Speaker 1: to have an international incident. He has the same basic
Speaker 1: responses to everything. That's what a single self actually looks like.
Speaker 1: And single self, you see, is a pathology unified itself,
Speaker 1: diversified harmonious self is healthy because it can act apropriately
Speaker 1: to a wide variety of situation. Yes, but you say
Speaker 1: mental health is being in the right mind at the
Speaker 1: right time. That's your catch phrase. What how do you
Speaker 1: don't you themselves differ in what they think is the
Speaker 1: right time? Do you know what I'm saying? Well, usually
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, for instance, during the day, you
Speaker 1: have a sales meeting with your own people. You talk
Speaker 1: to your the customer you like least, You have a
Speaker 1: nice lunch with a friend it's not from work. You
Speaker 1: go home and your children, who are small want to
Speaker 1: play with you. These are all different aspects and if
Speaker 1: you are in the wrong one at the wrong time.
Speaker 1: My children, one of my kids, when she was about three,
Speaker 1: I'm in a little teeny corner of our house where
Speaker 1: I have I don't have a desk, but I have
Speaker 1: a little table with a little portable typewriter. And she
Speaker 1: comes in and we have some kind of interaction, and
Speaker 1: she goes out, and then I hear her say to
Speaker 1: my wife, is daddy tired because daddy just treated her badly?
Speaker 1: And she already can tell there are different daddies. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the right mind at the right time is where
Speaker 1: there's the best match. So if you are, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're with your girlfriend, you don't treat her like
Speaker 1: you just treated your worst client. And you don't treat
Speaker 1: your worst client like he's your girlfriend. You you have
Speaker 1: it built in and we actually get some very interesting
Speaker 1: training as very small children. Okay. Now I don't know
Speaker 1: if you remember this, but we were all told at
Speaker 1: some point when you're upset, you count to ten. And
Speaker 1: as a child, you think this is the stupidest thing
Speaker 1: I've ever heard of. I want to just punch my
Speaker 1: little brother, and because he just hit me, and I
Speaker 1: get to hit him back. Seven, eight, nine, Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't want to hit him. Okay. What happened in that
Speaker 1: that spiritual practice of counting to ten is you were
Speaker 1: able to access a more harmoni as part of yourself.
Speaker 1: So we have it built in as a system, and
Speaker 1: there's dozens of ways. You know, you undoubtedly have probably
Speaker 1: taught people, you know, take a deep breath, you know,
Speaker 1: settle down, you know, relax for a moment. We have
Speaker 1: all these ways of working us into the other side.
Speaker 1: Some people say, you know, I'm going to do an
Speaker 1: interview with someone I like. I think I better have
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee first, because I know that will
Speaker 1: shift my cognitive capacity a little bit that caffeine does. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I know what I'm doing, right, I hear you.
Speaker 1: I think that for some people it's harder than others. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and what your goal is, well, it happens at
Speaker 1: a very profound level. A few years ago, when I
Speaker 1: was still traveling, I was quite physically ill a lot
Speaker 1: of the day, and I had accepted a date in
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, and I was the event. Okay, so
Speaker 1: I really pretty much had to do it. And I
Speaker 1: crawled on the plane and I was unhappy, and I
Speaker 1: went to the hotel and I slept, and I'm in
Speaker 1: the green room with the little room off stage that
Speaker 1: you wait before you go on. This was the beautiful
Speaker 1: library of Salt City, and it was like five hundred people,
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I'm so physically out of it. I
Speaker 1: wonder what happens if I faint in the middle of
Speaker 1: my talk. Yeah, I said, that I hope not, but
Speaker 1: I've never done that. And I went out of the
Speaker 1: stage and I had asked for a chair, not a podium,
Speaker 1: and I sat there and I said something that made
Speaker 1: them feel welcome, and then I said this little story
Speaker 1: and they were amused, and you know, laughter feed certain
Speaker 1: people's vanity in mine is one of them. And then
Speaker 1: I did have a speech prepared, so I had some
Speaker 1: I had notes, don't I don't, and I don't use
Speaker 1: a power point because I changed things around and I
Speaker 1: gave really a for me, a very very good speech,
Speaker 1: and my physical capacity. When I finished with that speech,
Speaker 1: I was physically fine, and about two hours later I
Speaker 1: was back to being ill. A graphic view of what
Speaker 1: we do, and there are ways we know physiologically change
Speaker 1: adrenaline and so forth to shift. We have shifts built
Speaker 1: into the system because that's we need them. That's the
Speaker 1: normal healthy behavior. And the thing that is what the
Speaker 1: book says is here's the really simple truth, which is
Speaker 1: you're a multiple and you can be more harmonious. And
Speaker 1: then we say, how come you don't know this? And
Speaker 1: then we say because whenever it comes up, it kind
Speaker 1: of gets put into some little box. And then we
Speaker 1: literally there's probably a thousand examples from fifteen different fields
Speaker 1: of human knowledge where multiplicity is described and discussed and elucidy.
Speaker 1: When what we found is the only thing I've ever written.
Speaker 1: It has had is people read it and say, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm starting to see myself and other people differently. So
Speaker 1: I wrote a self help book, and self help books
Speaker 1: whenever we think of them, they're self help, but all
Speaker 1: of them. When you're done, you have to do something.
Speaker 1: You have to lose weight through different exercises, breathe different
Speaker 1: They make charts and lists and do affirmation whatever it is,
Speaker 1: whatever the book says. And I've done one of those
Speaker 1: and people do that. But it's wonderful where you simply
Speaker 1: say to people, just notice your own mind and put
Speaker 1: it into this try this framework, and if it feels
Speaker 1: more congruent within your prior framework, then you've just found
Speaker 1: a better way to describe your own life. And the
Speaker 1: example we use is the Earth is I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's going to frighten anymore, as your group of
Speaker 1: the Earth is not the center of the universe, it's
Speaker 1: not even the center of the Solar system. Watch out.
Speaker 1: But up to a certain point it was the center
Speaker 1: the Solar system. And at that point we had enough astronomy,
Speaker 1: so we were we could see the orbits of the
Speaker 1: other planets. Imagine trying to draw the orbit of Mars
Speaker 1: around Earth. Okay, and they exist, and they're these wonderful
Speaker 1: curlocues and curves, amazing things to make it fit. And
Speaker 1: so when the Sun was noticed as the center of
Speaker 1: the Solar system, the astronomers were just in bliss and
Speaker 1: science moved very very quickly because they didn't have to
Speaker 1: create a kind of nonsense system to fit a prior belief.
Speaker 1: So when people are comfortable looking at their selves, they
Speaker 1: begin to be both kinder to themselves and kinder to others.
Speaker 1: And that makes you know, what else are we working for? Well?
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree. You have a section on tools, techniques,
Speaker 1: and strategies for selves work. Can you leave our listeners
Speaker 1: with some practical strategies. I don't want to give away
Speaker 1: the book with that, but we have lots of strategies,
Speaker 1: and the basic strategy is noticing. And the question is
Speaker 1: am I in the right self? Now? You know, if
Speaker 1: I just yelled at my kid, my kid didn't do
Speaker 1: it anything or didn't do anything very bad. Or you know,
Speaker 1: or I'm I am aware that I am enjoying my
Speaker 1: second cocktail. The waiter has just said, would you like
Speaker 1: a refill? Sir? I know that I'm good at two
Speaker 1: and i'm and I think I'm terrific at three, but
Speaker 1: nobody likes me for so it's noticing and it's not
Speaker 1: blaming because there's no there's no judgment in that, which
Speaker 1: is and the parts of you that say, well, I
Speaker 1: I the parts of you that said, no, I don't
Speaker 1: need a third because I had two cocktails before I
Speaker 1: came tonight. Okay, very normal alcoholic response is you try
Speaker 1: and work with that part. And there's lots of ways
Speaker 1: to work with that part. In the book is full
Speaker 1: of kind of tricks and methods, but the fundamental one
Speaker 1: is noticing. Once you notice. You know, none of us
Speaker 1: quite remember, but there was a point when we noticed
Speaker 1: that the other sex was worth noticing, and we had
Speaker 1: to learn a whole lot of new behavior. Okay, but
Speaker 1: we could tell the difference between who we were turned
Speaker 1: onto and who we weren't. That's also when people discover
Speaker 1: they're gay. When they again they're finding out who they're
Speaker 1: turned on to. And then you work but that observation
Speaker 1: is a fundamental one. And what I've said to people,
Speaker 1: if you want to remember, because most of us can
Speaker 1: probably remember, can you remember when the idea, even just
Speaker 1: the idea of somebody else's tongue inside your mouth was
Speaker 1: so disgusting and an a little while later you found out, well,
Speaker 1: you know there's something to that. There's a whole other
Speaker 1: way of looking at that. So it's not about techniques
Speaker 1: as much as it is about starting with observation, and
Speaker 1: then there are there are lots of techniques. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: sure that this episode has wet people's appetite more than
Speaker 1: enough to go ahead and buy your book. It is
Speaker 1: really great. I highly recommend it's called Your Symphony of Selves.
Speaker 1: Discover and understand more of who we are. Jim, You're
Speaker 1: such a legend. I always love chatting with you, and
Speaker 1: I hope we can we can do this again sooner
Speaker 1: than last time, because it's really fun to see you
Speaker 1: again and that I'm delighted that we have this time together. Likewise, likewise,
Speaker 1: I love you. Man. Yes, thanks for listening to this
Speaker 1: episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react
Speaker 1: in some way to something you heard, I encourage you
Speaker 1: to join in the discussion at thus psychology podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: We're on our YouTube page, The Psychology Podcast. We also
Speaker 1: put up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube
Speaker 1: page as well, so you'll want to check that out.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show,
Speaker 1: and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity.