WEBVTT - Jim Urbina - Part 2 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.320 Welcome back to part two of the podcast with Jim Urbina. 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:07.320 If you haven't yet, please subscribe to our newsletter, which 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.120 goes out every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. It's the easiest 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.000 way to stay up to date with all of what's 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:15.680 happening in the golf world. 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:17.200 Really easy to subscribe. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.200 Go to www dot the fridaygg dot com and sign 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.759 up in the newsletter block right there on the front page. Thanks, 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.440 and here's part two of the podcast with Jim Urbina. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.360 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:33.479 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:35.520 And when I find my ball in a brid egg 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.200 Frida Egg Friday Friday. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.839 Bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the 0:00:41.840 --> 0:01:11.080 golf course. In terms of you obviously have a passion 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:15.640 for Golden Age golf and golf in general. Like when 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.039 did you know you wanted to be a golf course architect? 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:25.920 I didn't know. I had no idea. I never played golf. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.319 I didn't understand golf. I was like Seth Rayner, you 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.200 know the famous pull to McDonald talked about Seth Rayner. 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:35.839 He didn't know a tennis ball from a golf ball. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:41.119 That was me, and I'm very thankful to Pete due 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:46.520 who I got my career started with. He embraced the 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.360 work that I was doing for him, the creativity that 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.520 he allowed me to do as a shaper. I started 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:55.320 as a shaper. I knew how to draw because I 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.320 was a high school drafting trade teacher by trade. But 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.320 I started as a shaper, and I didn't think I 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.480 wanted to be in this golf business. But the more 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.200 and more Pete Dye sent me around looking at his 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:13.600 golf courses, Old Marsh and PGA West, all these golf 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.040 courses he had done, the golf club on and on 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.840 and on, the more I started to understanding the beauty 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.040 of it. And his son Perry died sending me around 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.400 to other golf courses, allowing me to go to Cyprus, 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.880 point the Dye sending me to Saint Andrews in Scotland. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.840 They hooked me, man, They hooked me big time. And 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:37.120 they hooked me because they showed me a different way 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.120 to build a golf course, not that I knew any 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.840 other way than just hands on. I realized that the 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:45.920 only way to do it right, as Pete Dye told me, 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.400 was to do it yourself. And because they taught me 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.839 from the ground up, I understood and I appreciated how 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.239 these things were built. And to go on to work 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.919 at Pasa Temple and learn from McKenzie and Rainer courses 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.960 uh Yeamans Hall. I did work at Mid Ocean UH, 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.680 San Francisco Golf Club, Garden City, UH, the Bobbling Club, 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.520 on and on on. Recently sank in the head uh 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.560 in Nantucket, Emerson Armstrong one off design. I started to 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.480 realize all of these guys had the same passion. And 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:24.960 it's addictive, and it's it's all encompassing, and it's funny 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.440 when I send times, I send emails or text out 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.120 at two in the morning because I'm thinking about golf. 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.880 I'm all wrapped up in it. And you want you say, well, 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.560 why are you wrapped up in it? You didn't grow 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.080 up in the game. Well, because the way Pete and 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:43.120 his son Perry shared their experiences with me, they allowed 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.200 me to travel. They allowed me to see new and 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:50.120 and and and beautiful places. Cypress Point when I was 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.160 a punk, the National Golf Links before I was uh, 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.400 before I was thirty, before it was fashionable to travel 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.640 and look at architecture and it just became all encompassing. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.560 And because I like working with my hands, I like 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.840 building things, it was a perfect scenario for me and 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.080 for them to allow me to draw, do grading maps, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.839 work in the office, do drainage plans. It was all 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:20.039 just a big foundation that I had no idea what 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.200 I was doing, but I was doing the best I 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.680 could do because that's what my mom and dad taught 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.880 me in the little town. I grew up in whatever 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.080 you do, do it well, work hard at it, and 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:34.120 the benefits will reap and they have, and I've had 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.159 the chance to meet some wonderful people, and all because 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.760 Pete allowed me to seek out and look at different 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.520 golf courses and he embraced me, he trusted me, and 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.599 he let me build and be creative. And who doesn't 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.680 want to be creative And who doesn't want to build 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.719 something cool that they could stand and say I built that? 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.560 And who doesn't want to be out in the open 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.680 air and the open space and to travel and to 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.400 see beautiful places. I mean, who doesn't want to do that? Well? 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.680 I didn't think I did. And thirty seven, thirty eight 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.160 years later, I'm still doing it and I still have 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.919 that passion, and the day that it burns out is 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.480 the day I'm done. But whether it's an interview a 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:22.160 couple of days ago, or i'm working I'm working with 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:28.040 Mike Kaiser on some projects, working with new designs, working 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.200 with restorations, it's the passion. And when that passion's gone, 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.080 you know I'll probably be done. But maybe sometimes it's 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.640 too much passion. I can't sleep at all. That's how 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:39.359 I got started. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.080 I end up doing the same thing. I am like, 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:49.240 you get crazed, but you get crazed the A lot 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.559 of people say that we're in this second Golden Age, 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.840 and something that seems to be to me A common 0:05:55.920 --> 0:06:00.599 theme is Pete Die with Yeah, I mean, and I 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:04.240 feel like he doesn't get enough credit for what he did. 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.240 Well. I think Pete Dye was People always ask me 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.960 about the Mount Rushmore of golf course architects, and Pete 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.120 Dye should be up there, and you know you're going 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.599 to say, wow, that's just because you work for him. Well, 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:24.040 Pete Dye taught me about detail and taught me about 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.960 being hands on. And look at how many people he 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.239 spun off. Look how many people work for him. Lee Schmidt, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:36.320 Brian Curly, Bill Cooor, the list goes on and on 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:40.599 and on. And I think about all of the people 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.919 who got that chance to work for Pete, and I think, Wow, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:50.960 we all had that same attachment. Pete putting his hand 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.600 on your shoulder saying, you know this is what we're 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.760 gonna do here and trust you. Tom Doak working for 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:01.360 Pete dye pretty cool play, Pretty cool that we all 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.640 had a chance to work for the man. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:08.040 We've talked a little bit about McDonald and Rayner and 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:12.200 National and I'm a huge Rainer nut and McDonald nut. 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.440 And one of the things I've heard people that like 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.040 to diminish Rainer and McDonald are they say that their 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.600 use of templates were unimaginative. 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:24.560 What would you say to that? 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:32.640 I would laugh, I would laugh. And the reason I 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:38.960 would laugh is because people who say they're unmattered, unimaginative 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:44.800 don't understand why they came about where they came from. 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:51.560 And yes, it's easy to say, oh, just another of 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:57.160 a dan or it's easy to say just another alpshole 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:01.920 or a hog's back, or a plateau or a short 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.840 or eden. I could go on and on and on, 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:12.840 but the intent of the strategy. I was just talking 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.960 to somebody about an article that Charles Blair MacDonald wrote 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:23.040 and Golf Illustrated February issue nineteen oh seven, and he 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.640 described in detail each hole and how he would create 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.440 these wonderful holes that he brought from the UK. He 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.960 selected the best holes of the UK and brought it 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:38.120 with him, leading many leading authors of that time, Harry Varden, 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.080 James Braid, Horace Hutchinson and John Lowe to discuss what 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:47.200 the best holes were. And all McDonald was trying to 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:53.360 do was spice up the architecture in America because he 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:59.040 thought it was very bland and he wanted to bring 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:04.800 these golf of course is to America to showcase paraphrasing, 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:09.640 these wonderful holes in all of their glory, these ideal 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:14.320 holes of the UK in Scotland. And so when people 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:19.480 talk about unimaginative, how many different times did Rayner use 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:25.320 the short in different topographies? Short Acres? I mean the 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.840 short at Short Acres versus the short at the National 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.560 versus the short at Yamen's Hall that I just recently 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.920 redid this past spring and summer. They're all different. Yeah, 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:42.000 somebody would say, yeah, they all play one, but the 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:46.960 style of the green, its location, the micro climate, the wind, 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:52.080 the trees, the open space. Unimaginative. Yeah, you could say 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.360 they're all short and you could say they're all the dans, 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.199 and you could say they're all edens. But their location, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.000 the intent, the location in the round of the routing, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:10.960 the topography that was used, the width of the fairways, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.160 the type of ground it's played on rock versus sand, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:21.560 I mean unimaginative. What I think is unimaginative is bunkers 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:23.520 that are put out at three hundred and ten yards 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.559 left and right in the fairway on every hole. That's unimaginative. 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:29.120 Yeah, I'd agree with that. 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.120 I think the other thing with Rayner, like you know, 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.360 having played short acres so many times, is like you know, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.559 you think about some of the greatest holes of short acres, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.199 like the jump to mine are like eleven and fifteen, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.920 and those are holes that are just you know, cut 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.360 into the natural landscape and aren't templates. 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.480 You won't see those holes anywhere else. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.160 No, No, And yes you're gonna see the radan, but 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.760 it's in a different presentation, and you are going to 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.959 see the eden different presentation the road hole, but it's 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.440 in a different presentation, each one of them capturing the 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.400 essence of the idea but slightly differing in the way 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:13.400 they're presented. And to me, that's the imaginative way that 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.960 they were applied to the landform which seth Rayner, Charles Banks, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.280 Joe Barton all were involved with as well as McDonald. 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.360 They were taking the intent of those holes, spicing up 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.959 golf in America and trying to recapture what was good 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.160 for strategy, and they just took it across the country, 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.760 applied it in different locations in different ways, and we 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.840 all I enjoy them. Maybe not everybody enjoys them, but 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:47.120 I enjoy them for their intent and their opposite of unimaginative, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.559 imaginative ways they were applied to the tobography. I mean, 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:56.120 what Brian Palmer has done at Shore Acres, the superintendent 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:00.640 to present that golf course is off the charts. And 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.480 you know that's the key to these golf courses. It's 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:07.840 the superintendent's involved with places like short Akers, Scott Pavalco 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.240 at the Baba Link and Brian Moore at Glenn Vy 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.160 the clubs I'm familiar with Chicago Golf Club. All of 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.880 those guys bring out the character of those quoted unimagined 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.880 the holes like every time I hear that word, now, 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:24.599 I'm gonna think of this discussion. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.760 It's so do you think that the perception of templates 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.920 would be better if they were labeled as inspirations instead? 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.080 You know, that's a good That's I've always thought about 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.719 what templates mean to people, what the ideal holes mean 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.760 to people. I think template holes are so vague in 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.000 their and what they mean. I mean when you think 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.280 about what McDonald and Rayner are brought to America in 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.600 the early nineteen hundreds, I'm sorry McDonald. Rayner just helped 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:02.480 McDonald create these ideal holes. It was a time in 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.199 America when architecture was so simple simple in this presentation, 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.719 McDonald and Rayner brought these holes to life at the 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.959 National Golfings of America, the Leito Golf Club, the Yale 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:18.679 Golf Club, and people started to appreciate maybe what architecture 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.320 and golf could could evolve to. And it's no different 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.240 than what the seventies and eighties, or even post war 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.520 fifties and sixties brought to America and golf. The seventies 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.520 and eighties, with major amounts of dirt moved. And even 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.920 when you talk about the nineties, the late nineties when 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.480 the Sandhills was built and the new minimalist style of 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:45.199 golf architecture, it's no different. McDonald and Rayner were bringing 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:50.360 those inspiration holes, as you say, different than the fifties 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:55.120 and sixties what golf provided America the seventies and eighties 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.040 with TPC sawgrass and these clubs that were being built 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.320 with massive mounts of dirt move. And now the nineties 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.600 what Corn Crenshaw did at the sand Hills and minimalism 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.880 and what they ushered in. So it was all different 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.280 styles and just a different part of the history of 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.000 what golf was evolving in America. 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.560 Yeah, I had Mike Clayton on about a year ago 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.840 and he said, when you think about it, like, you know, 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.480 the strategy of great golf holes is really simple, and 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:33.000 it's almost impossible for a whole not to be inspired 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.440 by another great hole. Like it's almost impossible to come 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.280 up with like a truly unique, original idea. 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.520 And I think that the only way that you could 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.480 is if you brought in somebody who had never played golf, 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.120 which is what Pete Dye used to always appreciate about 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.000 me that I didn't play golf. If you brought somebody 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.560 in that had not seen a five hundred or a 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.800 thousand golf courses, if you brought somebody into the business 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:05.680 that didn't understand that good golfers were different than bogie golfers, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.360 that is the only way that you would bring in 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.800 a new perspective in golf design. Somebody that was completely 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.280 oblivious to all the patterns, all the strategies, all the 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:21.480 different things that had occurred from the early nineteen hundreds. Today, 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.800 you'd have to be a complete newbie, as some people 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:26.960 would call him, and then maybe you would find something 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:27.840 completely different. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.200 It's funny the a lot of like disruption that happens 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:37.000 with tech companies. Like the founder of Uber was never 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.520 a cab driver, and. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.640 So that tells you that they saw something different and 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.280 not the same old thing. And I think, you know, 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.840 I made a comment about this young man, Zach Blair. 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.120 He's going to create a golf course in Utah, I believe, 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.440 and to me, he has probably one of the better 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:03.720 chances of eating something different because he won't have these 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:08.160 preconceived notions that golf course architects, golf course designers golf 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.200 course builders have. I'll be curious to see what he 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:10.640 turns out. 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:13.640 Zach is a pod regular. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.360 I was out at his site a couple of months 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.640 ago walking around looking at how holes could fit in. 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.120 So you had a couple of movies. 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:24.800 And I'm curious to see what it turns out to me. 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.440 If I'm in the Salt Lake, Sydney area, I'm going 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.240 to snake my way up there and take a look. 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:31.960 I'm sure he'd have you. 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.280 Yeah, I imagine you can't really if you don't have 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:41.480 the superintendent on board and involved, you can't really have 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:46.080 a successful restoration or build man as well, pack. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.840 Up and go home, Andy, because they are the key 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:56.040 to the unlocking the playability of these wonderful ideas. I'll 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.080 never forget walking around with. I had this discussion with 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.440 a friend of mind, David Wilber. I never have I 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.320 remember having a discussion about Ken Nice at the Pacific 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.919 Dunes and Old Mac and for all the golf courses 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.160 at Bands Restore. He was the lead growing architect along 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.520 with Troy Russell Abandon Dunees. He bought into the notion 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.760 of what made these golf courses good and what would 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.199 make the architecture good. And that was Fescue and that 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.560 same goes for Shore Acres and Brian Palmer and Scopavolo 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.280 to Bobbi. They bought in to the architecture that was 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.480 being presented and the way they were going to play 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.600 the golf course, the bounce and roll that had to 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:41.800 happen in order for them to be to realize their 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:47.960 full potential. And when we redid the greens and fairways 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.040 and historical bunkers at games Hall this past spring and summer, 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.040 it was Brooks Riddle and his staff, wonderful staff that 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.439 embraced everything that we were doing and we were going 0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:59.080 to do the best to make the morning lines the 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.959 right way, the green's the right way, the historical bunkers 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.199 the right way. And if they don't buy in, Andy, 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.199 as I said, back up and go home, because it 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.000 has to be a team effort as well as the committee. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.680 Everybody has to buy into what you're doing. If there's detractors, 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.320 it's not as good. If there's naysayers, it's not as good. 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:28.080 But if the team is all one, shapers, construction team, assistance, superintendents, 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.879 the team, Andy, I can't tell you how many times 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.440 I want to talk about the team. Take the eye 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.879 out of it and put we we the team. We 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.680 at Short Acres, we at all of these places I've 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.280 had a chance to work at. They are the key 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.359 to make an architecture happen, and I just don't think 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.600 enough of them get credit. Yeah, you should talk to 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:51.639 more superintendents. 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:53.840 I know it's something. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:54.320 You know. 0:18:54.359 --> 0:19:00.280 What I need is I need more hours in the day. Yeah, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.560 find me, find me thirty hour days. But I definitely 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:10.920 planned to do more in twenty eighteen. I interviewed Kyle Hegland, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:16.119 the sand Hills superintendent, a couple months ago, and he 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.800 said something along the lines I don't want to misquote him, that, 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:24.119 you know, almost every super should be an architecture nut, 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.400 and if they aren't, they aren't necessarily doing their job 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.639 to their best of their abilities. I you know, I 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:31.760 don't want to misquote it. It was there was a 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.840 lot of context around that. So, but do you believe 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:35.200 in that? 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.080 You know, I believe the superintendent has to have the 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:45.119 working knowledge of his or hers the design. The Golden 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:50.520 Age design CJ. Penrose and Justin Manden. CJ. Penn was 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.560 a sanctity and Justin Maddenen at Pasa Temple are both 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.320 recapturing the essence of a Golden age design. If CJ 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.480 doesn't understand that that Emerson Armstrong this was his only 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.800 golf course he ever designed, and he and he didn't 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.960 understand that Emerson was trying to bring Links golf to 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.640 America and he had this wonderful sight that he could 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.760 do it on. If CJ didn't understand that, and c G. CJ. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.520 Penrose only knew that you know, uh, you you water 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.440 and you fertilizer and you mow, and you don't understand 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.600 what Link's golf is, then I don't know if that 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.320 he could recapture the essence of Sancity Head. And the 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.720 same for Justin at Posa Temple. If Justin didn't understand 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.760 who Alistair mackenzie was, uh, then he probably wouldn't be 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:43.199 so uh tolerant of the amount of work that he 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.840 has to put in to keep the look of the 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:50.400 bunkering and the greens at Posit Temple so well uh 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.679 uh appealing as far as the look of him. And 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.959 when he painstakingly took Positive Temple through the drought years 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.119 and create did this firm and fast playing conditions with 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:06.360 Brown outside of the playing surfaces. If he didn't understand 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:10.080 where Alistair McKenzie came from and what Posita Temple should 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.359 stand for, then he may may not have been so successful. 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:19.000 So I believe the statement that superintendent should have at 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.399 least some understanding of Golden Age design so that he 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.080 understands the strategy and layout and how they were maintained 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.280 in that era. So I agree with him totally. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.040 Yeah, speaking of Justin, I got to see the new 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.920 water facility and meet him when I was out there 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.359 a couple of months ago, and that that's pretty cool. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:40.119 So he's not just a super noow, he's like a 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.600 water treatment specialist. 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.280 You know. The funny thing is all superintendents are water 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:49.480 management people, and I think Justin took it to the 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:50.080 next level. 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.720 So with Old Mac, building Old Mac, you got to 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:58.880 build a modern day rainer McDonald, you know, representation. How 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:03.720 much different was it from restoring a rainer? And then conversely, 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.160 what what have you learned from building that you now 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:08.920 take to your restorations. 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:14.719 One of the there was two pivotal points in the 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:18.800 in the design and construction of Old McDonald that were 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:24.760 for me. For me, personally turning points. The first was 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.320 we had a group of consultants that were helping with 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.240 us with the project, the late George Botta, who who 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:39.600 what a wonderful man, Carl Olsen and Brad Klein, and 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:44.640 we were standing on just in front of this fire 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.200 road or access road that would be the future of 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.280 a dan at Old McDonald and I had the group 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.920 together and I asked the question to all of them. 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.560 It was a sunny day, mid afternoon. I'll never forget this, Andy, 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:03.399 I said, how much does this golf course have to 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:08.320 look like the ideal holes that McDonald and rayn are 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:13.280 built at the National And almost to a man, Tom 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:15.920 was standing there as well, Almost to a man, they 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:20.639 all said, it doesn't. And that was a philosophy that 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:26.240 was that now shaped the way we were going to 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.639 build the golf course. I spent, you know, one hundred 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.600 ninety days there, over one hundred and eighty five ninety 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:37.399 days there. I was going to now take that ideal about. 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.639 It doesn't have to, but it does have to have 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.439 the inspiration behind the hole. You know, what did the 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.600 short hole stand for? Well, you can't build a short 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.119 hole and make it two hundred and ten yards long, right, Well. 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:54.119 Some people, some people in the seventies thought that was 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.720 the right thing for short holds. 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:00.560 That's one of the funniest things when i'm these during 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.040 rainer courses, when some people they say they want to 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:06.320 make it longer, and I said, well, then we'd have 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:10.280 to change the name. We would have to change it 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:15.159 the longer, not shorter, and so that usually shuts everybody up, 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:20.000 not in a domeaning way. So that was the first 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.600 That was kind of the first principle. It doesn't have 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.560 to look like but it has to play like the 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:30.439 intent of the strategy. So that was like, it was like, 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:34.200 oh great, now the Redan doesn't have to be exactly 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.479 like the Redan, and the Eden doesn't have to be 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.080 exactly like the Eaton. It should have the straft bunker, 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:45.160 it should have that. That's important in the Eden. And 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:50.440 the double plateau should have double plateau green. But how 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:54.280 it's configured, you know, that's not that important. And the 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:59.440 second important day for me was the day that ten 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:04.920 nights myself and Mike Kaiser walked the first three shaped 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:09.840 holes at Old McDonald I'm sorry, the four holes. So 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:13.399 we looked at the we looked at Sahara's third green, 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:18.040 Bruce Hepner had shaped that in their wonderful job. We 0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:22.840 walked the hog's back the fourth hole and the green 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:25.360 had been shaped on. I can't remember who did that one. 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:28.840 We got to the fifth hole and Tony Russell was 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:32.600 just finishing shaping up. Tony Russell is a famous shaper 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:37.520 of Core Crenshaw fame and Bannon Dune's fame. He had 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:40.000 just finished all the little contours that I had asked 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:42.560