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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt. They call

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Speaker 1: me Ben, and we're joined as always with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission Controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you,

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Matt. This, uh, this was very

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Speaker 1: close to being one of those episodes where we might

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Speaker 1: have we might have run into some trouble, you know,

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Speaker 1: because we're touching on something that's controversial for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people and close to the hearts of many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners. We are we're also, I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: topic that I think has invaded all of our minds

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Speaker 1: from young ages. I think there's a time in many

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Speaker 1: of our lives when the concept of some other intelligence

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Speaker 1: from some other place far far away, either visits for

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Speaker 1: just interest reasons or for some very specific purpose. And

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Speaker 1: and I think that concept um when it digs into

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Speaker 1: your subconscious and your conscious deeply enough as at least

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Speaker 1: it has mine, UM, you become I wouldn't say obsessed,

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Speaker 1: but you you become fixated a bit on the idea

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Speaker 1: of either we are completely alone or there there are

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Speaker 1: things out there far beyond our understanding, and good god,

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Speaker 1: that's either terrifying or amazing, right right, what's that old

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Speaker 1: that old quote that either either think being true is

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Speaker 1: terrifying exactly. So it's when you mentioned that, because according

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Speaker 1: to a twenty nineteen pole from insiders insider dot com,

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Speaker 1: which of course is you know, not pure research or anything,

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Speaker 1: it seems like one in five US residents don't just

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Speaker 1: believe that extraterrestrials exist somewhere out there, which is almost

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Speaker 1: a mathematical certainty, right, they believe that aliens, physical extraterrestrials

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Speaker 1: have actually visited this planet of ours at some point.

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Speaker 1: That's right, folks. Today we are returning to the fascinating,

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Speaker 1: controversial topic of UFOs. Longtime listeners, you will remember this

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Speaker 1: is a point of contention on this show. What is

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Speaker 1: a UFO? It is literally anything in the sky that

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Speaker 1: is both an object and cannot be conclusively identified. It's

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Speaker 1: tricky here because the concept of UFOs, at least in

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Speaker 1: the West, is fundamentally inseparable from the concept of stra terrestrials, right,

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Speaker 1: And so many times, through a variety of outlets, we

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Speaker 1: see these two we see these two things conflated, and

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Speaker 1: we see a We see a vast range of investigative

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Speaker 1: endeavor going into identifying these unidentified flying objects. Some of

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Speaker 1: this is maybe breathless, little sensationalistic. Uh, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking kind of the ancient aliens vibe you might see

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Speaker 1: on the History Channel. And then some other stuff is

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Speaker 1: is highly uh, highly objective, I would say, more on

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Speaker 1: the skeptical side, uh, and taking an academic approach. We're

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Speaker 1: aiming to do that today. But wait, Matt, you might

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Speaker 1: be saying, pump your brakes. Ben. You might have followed

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Speaker 1: up with you guys. Are you guys are a cracker

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Speaker 1: jack researchers, But who are you to tell us about

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Speaker 1: the the nuts and bolts science, you know, some of

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Speaker 1: the engineering behind and chemical substances that would be you know,

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Speaker 1: part and parcel of these claims of UFOs or of

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Speaker 1: these claims more specifically recovered artifacts. Well, dear friends, you

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Speaker 1: would be absolutely correct, and that is why Matt, Paul

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Speaker 1: and I are not diving into this rabbit hole. Alone.

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Speaker 1: We have a very special guest that we would like

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Speaker 1: to welcome to the show, Christopher Cogswell, the host of

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Speaker 1: the Mad Scientist podcast. This is a comedy show on

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Speaker 1: the history and philosophy of pseudoscience that he does along

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Speaker 1: with his fantastic co host Marie Mayhew. Chris, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on the air with us today. Oh guys,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Been a longtime fan. So I'm

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Speaker 1: really uh, kind of nerdon out over here getting to

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Speaker 1: come on the show. Oh, come on, you have expertise.

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Speaker 1: As we just outlined in that introduction to you. We

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Speaker 1: are very much the ones here in the position of

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Speaker 1: being excited to talk to you. We're just some guys.

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Speaker 1: So look, we're gonna jump right into it. Um Like,

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Speaker 1: tell us, tell us exactly what your background is. Why

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Speaker 1: tell us more about what you've done. Why we believe

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Speaker 1: that you are an expert on this subject. So my

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Speaker 1: background is in So I first went to school at

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Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire. I received a Bachelor's of

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Speaker 1: Science degree in chemical engineering and also philosophy, and in

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Speaker 1: my you know, I've always sort of had a lifelong

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Speaker 1: interest in um in these kinds of subjects. You know.

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Speaker 1: The joke I used always tell whenever I give a

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Speaker 1: talk on this stuff or I speak in public about

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Speaker 1: this is you know um. One of the main questions

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Speaker 1: I always had was, why was it that my grandma

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Speaker 1: who wasn't otherwise you know, very very intelligent woman. She

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Speaker 1: spoke like five different languages, is um. She came here

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Speaker 1: with her family from Italy, you know, with nothing and

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Speaker 1: built a family that now includes you know, people that

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Speaker 1: are you know, living successfully, and you know, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's it was so wild to me and just not

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Speaker 1: understandable why she would both be so smart and capable

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Speaker 1: and have such a firm grasp of history and science

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Speaker 1: despite her lack of education coming from you know, Croatia

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Speaker 1: and then to Italy and whatever, but then also have

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Speaker 1: her belief that you know, climate change was a Chinese

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Speaker 1: hoax or or or that you know, um, or that

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Speaker 1: she had this crazy she had this crazy idea. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where she picked it up, but he used

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Speaker 1: to drive my family wild. She had this idea. So

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Speaker 1: she was a diabetic, and she had this idea that

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Speaker 1: if you put lemon juice into things that were sweet,

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Speaker 1: it would for some reason. Negate all of the sugar,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I'll never forget. We were we were

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Speaker 1: on a road trip with her up to Michigan and

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Speaker 1: visit my cousin, and we stopped at a dairy queen

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Speaker 1: and she got this huge thing of vanilla ice cream

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Speaker 1: and she squirted. She used to carry lemon juice with her,

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Speaker 1: and she squirted the lemon juice on the ice cream

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Speaker 1: and it was like, you know that scene from The

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Speaker 1: Nanny where she puts like the bagel, two bagels on

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Speaker 1: top of a slice of pizza and she's like, the

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Speaker 1: body doesn't know. That was essentially my grandma's view of nutrition,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um So, anyway, so that was always really

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me. So I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 1: doing kind of you know, research and reading everything else

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Speaker 1: about this subject of pseudoscience and why people believe incorrect

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Speaker 1: Incorrect is maybe a too strong word for a subject

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Speaker 1: like the UFO subject, let's say, but why do people

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Speaker 1: believe things that are either patently untrue or seemed to

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Speaker 1: fly in the face of reason? And so uh. I

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Speaker 1: then went on to get a PhD in chemical engineering

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Speaker 1: from Northeastern University in Boston. My research project, they're UM

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Speaker 1: focused on the use of nanomaterials for UM for advanced

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Speaker 1: capture catalysis and UM just essentially pulling things that are

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Speaker 1: hard to get out of the air or water or

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Speaker 1: different environments, UM, capturing those in efficient ways, and then

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Speaker 1: being able to upgrade those two usable chemicals. So the

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Speaker 1: most famous cases that is carbon dioxide UM. So capturing

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Speaker 1: CEO two from the atmosphere, which where it's in very

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Speaker 1: low concentrations is challenging and difficult UM. And then so

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Speaker 1: that part is hard to capture part is difficult, But

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Speaker 1: then actually converting that useless carbon in the CEO two

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Speaker 1: form into a usable chemical feedstock like a polymer based

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Speaker 1: you know, a monitor or whatever, that's even a bigger challenge.

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Speaker 1: So those are sort of the applications I looked at.

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Speaker 1: But the work that I did specifically was on the

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Speaker 1: creation of layered nanostructured materials or material reals that could

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Speaker 1: be after synthesis UM edited in some way, so you

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Speaker 1: could apply a chemical uh, you know, heat or temperature

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Speaker 1: or a change in pH or electromagnetism or something and

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Speaker 1: make the materials shaped or chemical properties change in the

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Speaker 1: desired way. So the example I give is like almost

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Speaker 1: like an accordion. Right when it's in its normal state,

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Speaker 1: the accordion is kind of pushed together, right, and it's

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Speaker 1: a small volume. But if you apply forced to either side,

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Speaker 1: you can get the accordion to expand. Right. With chemicals

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Speaker 1: you can do well. With some materials, you can do

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Speaker 1: almost the same thing. Right, the idea of I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you've used the kind of you know trick from when

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Speaker 1: you were a kid or even now as an adult.

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Speaker 1: You can't open up the you can't open up a

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Speaker 1: jar with a metal lid, so you put it under

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Speaker 1: hot water, right to expand the metal. That's that's the

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Speaker 1: metal itself, those bonds expanding due to the application of temperature. UM.

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Speaker 1: That's basically what I worked on was a lying things

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Speaker 1: like that in specific ways to create things that would

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Speaker 1: be useful um at the bulk chemical scale. So yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we're on the same page. One time

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Speaker 1: for the Science Fair, I made this thing that looked

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Speaker 1: like a volcano, but get this, it was no magma involved.

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Speaker 1: So it's basically you, me and Houdini. Uh maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: Nicola Tesla, I don't know, but that that aside you

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Speaker 1: and one thing that I think is um is key

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Speaker 1: to effective communication is that use of metaphor and analogy

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Speaker 1: that you you just uh, you just presented to us.

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Speaker 1: Because one thing that would be an immediate question for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the audience today would be,

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Speaker 1: all right, this guy, this guy has a PhD Chemical

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Speaker 1: engineering from Northeastern. He has intense background, he's a subject

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Speaker 1: matter expert. Uh. Why why has he decided to make

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Speaker 1: a podcast? You know? Is uh? And you and I

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Speaker 1: have talked about this a little bit off air. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Did you did you find yourself inspired by a specific case,

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Speaker 1: did you find yourself inspired by the format? Or you know,

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Speaker 1: what was what's your origin story? What's like act two

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Speaker 1: of this origin story that leads you into what will

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Speaker 1: what would become the Mad Scientists podcast? Right? When did

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Speaker 1: I realize I must dress up like a bat to

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Speaker 1: fight crime? Yes, exactly right, I will use their fear

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Speaker 1: against them. So really, what it was? So like I said,

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Speaker 1: I my family um is really steeped in I would

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Speaker 1: say the kind of old world traditions of you know,

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Speaker 1: superstitions and you know, religion in my family was almost

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Speaker 1: always more like magic in a weird way. And my

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Speaker 1: mom um in particular loved that stuff, you know. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we were always watching horror movies together and she did

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Speaker 1: tarot cards and uh astrology and all this stuff. And

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Speaker 1: on top of that you had my grandma who would

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Speaker 1: make these kinds of you know, weird concoctions of lemon

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Speaker 1: juice and other random ingredients. Um, because Dr Oz told

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Speaker 1: her that they would make her live to a you

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Speaker 1: know whatever it was. Right. So, Um, we always had

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Speaker 1: that kind of background in our family, and it never

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Speaker 1: really made sense to me because again, we are otherwise

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Speaker 1: very intelligent people, right, Um, So trying to understand, trying

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Speaker 1: to understand what that line was, and then also seeing

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Speaker 1: also seeing I suppose that there were things that we

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Speaker 1: consider there were things that me, as someone in the sciences,

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Speaker 1: would outright consider to be ridiculous. That if you looked

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Speaker 1: at them from from the standpoint of say philosophy or

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Speaker 1: sociology or anthropology or these other fields. You know what

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Speaker 1: a scientist or someone in the hard sciences might call

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Speaker 1: a soft science, Right, if you look at them from

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Speaker 1: those perspectives, they stop being ridiculous. You know. One of

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Speaker 1: the hot topics in the UFO field right now is

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Speaker 1: this idea of um, the idea of like out of

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Speaker 1: body experiences almost right, and kind of using your consciousness

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Speaker 1: to contact entities and whatever. And so you see this

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Speaker 1: in documentaries like the d MT Molecule documentary of Netflix,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's all over the place. Right, That

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Speaker 1: idea goes back thousands of years, right, this idea of

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Speaker 1: having almost like a a spiritual experience to meet with

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Speaker 1: other entities. And although from the standpoint you say, you know,

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Speaker 1: materialist um science, it doesn't make sense, right, how could

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Speaker 1: your consciousness transcend this physical barrier and everything else? From

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Speaker 1: the standpoint of philosophy, um, that's that was kind of

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Speaker 1: the status quo for most of human history, was the

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Speaker 1: idea that something like that made total sense. Right. If anything,

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Speaker 1: our consciousness being the collection of a random assortment of molecules,

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Speaker 1: um would have been the extreme position and the position

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Speaker 1: that didn't make sense. So understanding how that transition happens,

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Speaker 1: I think is really important because it pseudoscience has an effect,

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Speaker 1: It has a policy effect. Right. Um, we just saw

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Speaker 1: the Australian brush buyers go completely out of control. Right,

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Speaker 1: people still believe that that is not you know, the

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Speaker 1: misinformation around that is intense, right, It was arson, It

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Speaker 1: was you know, all these other options, but not that

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Speaker 1: it's the thing that the science is considered to be

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Speaker 1: the cause. Right, So combating pseudoscience, knowing why people believe it,

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Speaker 1: and also understanding those periods, and there's there's plenty of

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Speaker 1: them in the history of science where we transition from

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Speaker 1: science to pseudoscience and vice versa, right, cases where scientific

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Speaker 1: establishment became pseudoscience. Understanding those transitions and why societies accept

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Speaker 1: certain scientific ideas or technological ideas is really important. Agreed. Agreed,

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Speaker 1: there's a It's strange because one thing that we often

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Speaker 1: find in our own our our own research rabbit holes,

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Speaker 1: is that more than a few things that would be

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Speaker 1: considered fringe theories or conspiracy theories or what have you

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Speaker 1: actually qualify as folklore, you know. And there their stories

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Speaker 1: that we tell ourselves. And of course, you know, there

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Speaker 1: is a definition of a great story, at least for

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Speaker 1: the human species, regardless of genre. Uh. And it may

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Speaker 1: not be said explicitly or so nakedly all the time,

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Speaker 1: but the mark of a good story for every single

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Speaker 1: audience member is that they walk away feeling this was

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Speaker 1: ultimately in some way about me. That's and that's like

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Speaker 1: the folklore aspects. You know, we see the evolution from

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Speaker 1: We've talked about this before. This is very old hat,

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Speaker 1: I think to Matt n Eye to you as well, Chris,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about the beat by beat similarities between the

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Speaker 1: stories of alien abductions and stories of people being abducted

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Speaker 1: by the fay or fairies, right or the the unseen

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Speaker 1: world of some sort. So we know that there is

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Speaker 1: We know that there is an an underlying ancient narrative.

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Speaker 1: Something about the human mind and the way we categorize

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Speaker 1: and the way we uh synthesize and digest the world

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Speaker 1: around us, something about that makes us compels us to

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Speaker 1: create these stories or to um even even if those

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Speaker 1: stories are just interpretations of true events. But now, to

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Speaker 1: steal a line for Fox News, now, more than ever,

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Speaker 1: we are in a situation where we can bring to

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Speaker 1: bear methodology, We can bring to bear uh millennia of

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Speaker 1: of hard one scientific progress. And that's something that we

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Speaker 1: wanted to dive into with you today. Uh, Matt and

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Speaker 1: I have have a couple of things we wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you. Now, this is all this is all completely

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Speaker 1: again your your expert here. This is all completely going

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Speaker 1: to be up to you. How you want to respond. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we just we just want your your opinion on things.

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Speaker 1: And if there's ever something Paul, you might have to

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Speaker 1: bleep me here. If there's ever something we ask along

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Speaker 1: the way today where you say, well, what do you

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Speaker 1: think about blah blah blah and you think it's bulls

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Speaker 1: that's five and just say that's total malarkey, be and

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Speaker 1: it will be perfect. So one of the un I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Matt, do you wanna do you want to

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Speaker 1: kind of start? Okay, So just jumping straight into this

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Speaker 1: because I am fascinated by the the kind of cutting

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Speaker 1: edge that we know of in material science, in in

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Speaker 1: in chemicals and every just everything from physics, everything that

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Speaker 1: we know on this planet as humans, the knowledge of

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Speaker 1: technology that we have in its current state, and the

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Speaker 1: cutting edge of that, and how we kind of take

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Speaker 1: that cutting edge and vision of the future to explain

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Speaker 1: the versions of possible extraterrestrial technology, Like perhaps if there

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Speaker 1: was an intelligence species let's say several millennia or maybe

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Speaker 1: even millions of years ahead of us from a technology perspective, um,

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Speaker 1: what kinds of physical phenomena would they be exploiting in

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Speaker 1: order to have much higher technology than we have, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna start with what I know what

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Speaker 1: kind of per plays me as a layman. So I

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Speaker 1: want to just ask you about super conductivity, about materials

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Speaker 1: that that show these property or have these properties, and

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Speaker 1: how perhaps that could play some role in advanced technology,

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Speaker 1: either now or in the future. Sure, So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: I guess I want to speak to something that you

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Speaker 1: said kind of be your preamble to the the ultimate

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Speaker 1: question on super connectivity, right, which is this idea of

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Speaker 1: understanding the science or trying to fit our own view

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Speaker 1: of science to what we expect an extra terrestrial civilization

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Speaker 1: to be like? Right, Yeah, one of the one of

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Speaker 1: the funniest things that I We do this on the show,

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Speaker 1: um occasionally, and I love doing this whenever I talk

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Speaker 1: to somebody who's you know, since doing the show and

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Speaker 1: now kind of going to conventions and speaking to people

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Speaker 1: and being you know involved is as involved as a

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Speaker 1: skeptical scientists can be allowed to be in evolved in

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Speaker 1: these things. Um. I really love hearing, you know, when

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Speaker 1: someone tells you a story that is clearly you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like watching the Jetsons, right, It's like and

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Speaker 1: I'm not just saying that because my last name is Cogswall,

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Speaker 1: so you know, my progeny will create a wonderful space

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Speaker 1: empire for all of us. But um, you know, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: no problem. There's a there's something really funny about the

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Speaker 1: idea of how did they think the future would look

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Speaker 1: when they were doing the Jetsus. You know, for some

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Speaker 1: reason they still thought we were making like we were

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Speaker 1: still producing machines with people, right, Like the guy in

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Speaker 1: the Jetsons worked at a cog factory where or he

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Speaker 1: worked at a Sprocket factory. That's crazy, you know robots

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Speaker 1: would you know the we had these uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: the idea of how technology should look in the future.

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Speaker 1: It's always actually a really good tell for these UFO

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Speaker 1: cases that they're not true, right, So one of them

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Speaker 1: that's really funny, and it comes up a lot on

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Speaker 1: any Chilians, is this idea of a nuclear weapon being used.

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Speaker 1: Why do we assume that they don't have better weaponry

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Speaker 1: than that, or why would they need weaponry? You know,

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Speaker 1: if they're able to phase through walls and stuff, can

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, it's just crazy right. Um. So, anyways,

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Speaker 1: in terms of in terms of kind of where sciences

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Speaker 1: in terms of super connectivity and superconductors and all these

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Speaker 1: other things. They're kind of a couple of areas where

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Speaker 1: I guess I would say the challenges currently exists that

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Speaker 1: are I mean hopefully going to be solved in some

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Speaker 1: fashion in our lifetimes. The first one is the fact

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Speaker 1: that we don't really have a fundamental grasp right now

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Speaker 1: of how electrons transfer through materials efficiently, or or kind

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Speaker 1: of how they even really transfer. We have a general

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Speaker 1: idea writing medals and things, and we know that is

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Speaker 1: electrons are being So electrons sit in If you remember

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Speaker 1: from school, you were probably taught that electrons it in

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Speaker 1: something like almost a planetary model, right where the nucleus

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Speaker 1: is the center of the universe. It's like the sun,

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Speaker 1: right or the center of the Solar system, I should say,

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Speaker 1: So the nucleus is like the Sun that's really heavy.

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Speaker 1: And then around that nucleus are electrons orbiting in different

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Speaker 1: energy levels. Right, that's kind of true. They don't really

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Speaker 1: sit in energy, they don't really orbit that. They exist

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Speaker 1: in things called orbit tolls. So they do orbit around.

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Speaker 1: But the the shape is not circular, it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: defined by their probability fields. Um. But anyways, that's that's

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Speaker 1: really not the important point here. The important point we're

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Speaker 1: going to get more into probability fields because that's a

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Speaker 1: whole other thing. But I'm super excited. So as the

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Speaker 1: electron gets excited, it jumps into a higher state, and

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Speaker 1: then it can become de excited and then it will

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Speaker 1: go down. So they call these bands, right, So an

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Speaker 1: electron can be excited to jump into a conduction band

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Speaker 1: and then it will be able to transfer. But as

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Speaker 1: it transfers, it leaves behind an electron hole a place

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Speaker 1: where an electron should be. But maybe isn't right. There

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Speaker 1: are materials that hold those properties, right, And that's like

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Speaker 1: with things um. That's like with computer chips. Right, how

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Speaker 1: we write memory and or how we hope to write

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Speaker 1: memory and quantum computers is you would have a space

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Speaker 1: where a quanta should be, but it's not right because

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Speaker 1: of transport or whatever. But what we don't really know,

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Speaker 1: or what we we are currently still trying to understand,

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Speaker 1: is how to really efficiently um control the materials properties

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Speaker 1: themselves to make transfer possible in the ways that we

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Speaker 1: would need. And what is it that makes something become

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Speaker 1: super conductive. What is it about the magnetic structure, the

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Speaker 1: electronic structure of the material that causes it to become

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Speaker 1: super conductive UM? And so part of that study or

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Speaker 1: part of those sorts of materials are we have the

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Speaker 1: ability now to build materials essentially atom by atom. Right,

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Speaker 1: we can use ultrahivac chambers or autonical area position or

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Speaker 1: other methods where UM, you can build a crystal lattice

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Speaker 1: as you would like to. Crystal lattice is just the

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Speaker 1: structure that a crystal solid material with a crystalline form

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Speaker 1: exists in UM. We can actually control that growth. And

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Speaker 1: so building those materials and trying to understand the you know,

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Speaker 1: what effect would a silicon um a silicon phase next

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Speaker 1: to a you know, UM, I don't know whatever, some

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Speaker 1: other kind of ceramic phase. What effect would that have

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Speaker 1: on conduction of electrons? Right? What effect dold that have

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Speaker 1: on the super connecting properties. That sort of testing is

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Speaker 1: going on across the country, and it's it's super interesting,

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Speaker 1: and frankly it's above my pay grade. Wow. I didn't

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Speaker 1: go into I didn't go into physics specifically because I

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't understand what electron hole is I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to worry about it. Have chemicals, not atoms,

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Speaker 1: and not electrons. Let's pause here for a word from

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Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we've returned. It's somewhat inspiring, is it

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Speaker 1: not to to think that these sorts of questions may

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Speaker 1: have answers? Uh that, and well, they certainly do have answers,

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Speaker 1: but that we may discover these answers within our individual lifetimes.

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Speaker 1: That's to me, that's that's fascinating, assuming we don't burn

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Speaker 1: the whole shebang down, right but right, but this so okay,

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Speaker 1: So that's the real life provable version of where we are.

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Speaker 1: I especially appreciate the point you made, Chris, about how

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Speaker 1: we're we're sort of projecting what we know as humans

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Speaker 1: onto any hypothetical extraterrestrial society. That that point about the

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Speaker 1: nuclear weapon stayed with me, because of course, if we

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Speaker 1: only had spears and we were making up a story

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Speaker 1: about a superior your civilization, they would have the biggest

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Speaker 1: and best spear, right exactly. It wouldn't even be a spear, though,

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Speaker 1: it would be something completely different that you have no

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Speaker 1: concept of. That's what it just everything. But that's why,

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Speaker 1: that's why stories of super weapons and like the Middle Ages,

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Speaker 1: where things like weapons that never broke, weapons that never

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Speaker 1: went dull right, you know they had no It wasn't

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Speaker 1: even like, oh they imagined what a gun would be

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Speaker 1: or you know, um anything like that. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was just they were like, oh, what if our spears

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Speaker 1: never broke, but if they never went dull um, that

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Speaker 1: would be a super weapon. Yeah, but what about via

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Speaker 1: Maana's Chris come on right, right, right? Yeah, the flying right,

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Speaker 1: the flying carpets of death with a nuclear raised. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, I can say it genuinely intrigues me. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that I or doesn't mean that I

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Speaker 1: believe that that's precisely what it was. I think it's

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Speaker 1: just such an intriguing concept that was somewhat explored, um

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Speaker 1: but not fleshed out in any kind of material way.

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Speaker 1: But does it ever does it ever make you wonder

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Speaker 1: if it's just being described in the understanding as we're

429
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: talking about this, but it was some kind of um

430
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: more than natural phenomena like teology. Yeah, I mean, I'm

431
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: genuinely like, I'm wondering if like, when you're thinking about

432
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: that philosophically and you pull yourself out a little bit

433
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: of the scientific mind. Um like does that does that

434
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: give you pause at all or does it make you

435
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: go down a rabbit hole? Or do you just kind

436
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: of push it away as like that's obviously not what

437
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: this is. Yeah, well so honestly, one of the one

438
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: of the things, you know, one of the first books

439
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: on this subject that I really you know, besides like

440
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: the you know, Time Life, right, like those kinds of

441
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: kids books. Are you talking about Mysteries of the Unknown,

442
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: Because if you are, sir, I thank you to treat

443
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: that ground series. I know, it's a listen, it's close

444
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: to a lot of our hearts, and it's very important

445
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: as as a work of scholarship. I'd say it's very

446
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: it's you know, the book series that launched a thousand podcasts. Um.

447
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: The one of the first books on this that I

448
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: really read seriously was actually Eric von Danikin's Chariots of

449
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: the Gods. And I love the idea, you know, because

450
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: it is it's fascinating, it's so intriguing, and especially especially

451
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: when you know, like twenty thirty years ago, when um,

452
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: when I was growing up reading those you know, we

453
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: didn't we really didn't know a lot or I should

454
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: say this knowledge of the Mayan civilization and these other

455
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: civilizations was pretty limited in terms of what I had

456
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: access to. You know, So reading these things and reading

457
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: about like the pyramids, um, you know, the pyramids, the

458
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: angles and the pyramids coming together in this function that

459
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: made pie this special numb or I was like, oh

460
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: my god, that had to be Aliens. And then you

461
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: just find out that like pie is defined as the

462
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: ratio of angles in a triangle, and it isn't as

463
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: interesting anymore. That being said, the problem with the idea

464
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: is it becomes. And this is the problem of a

465
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: lot of paranormal ideas generally, is it becomes it basically

466
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: falls into a fallacy that's similar to the fallacy or

467
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: similar to the argument style that um Descartes used in

468
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:35,239
Speaker 1: his famous meditations on first Philosophy. And so the the

469
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: argument essentially is, and I'm sure you all know this,

470
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: cogito ergo sum right is the famous phrase that decart said,

471
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: which translates to I think therefore I am so that

472
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: specifically references he he had this thought experiment, and he

473
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: was working at a time where he was trying to

474
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: determine philosophers. Generally, we're trying to determine what could you

475
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: know about the universe, about the world around you that

476
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: came just from pure logic, just from rationalism, right, that

477
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: didn't require experimental work or knowledge gained from outside of you.

478
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: And so philosophers called this a priori knowledge, right, as

479
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: opposed to knowledge a gain from the world, which is

480
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: called a posterior eye knowledge. What they cart determined was

481
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: So he goes through this this you know, it's a

482
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: pretty short read, and it's a really interesting work, I'd say,

483
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: But so he goes through this kind of this lengthy

484
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: discourse about, well, my eyes are wrong all the time

485
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: about stuff, right, Like, I get tricked. There's optical illusions.

486
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: I don't see things all that well from far away,

487
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: even though things are there. Um, I have dreams, right,

488
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: I have all of these things. I misremember things all

489
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: the time I have there There seems to be something

490
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: about my my you know, sensory apparatus that sight and

491
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: hearing and taste and feeling everything else that can be tricked.

492
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: And so he positive this idea of what's called decards

493
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: demon which is the idea that imagine that before all

494
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: of the sensory input gets to you, right, so these

495
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: you're seeing something from far away. That information is traveling

496
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: to you, but right before it gets to you, there's

497
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: a demon who changes it in a way that makes

498
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: it into what the demon wants you to see. Could

499
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: you discern that that was happening another way of right,

500
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: the answer is no, and that's why. Well so, and

501
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: that's what and that's what Descartes said, right was the

502
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: only thing therefore that I can know really in any

503
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: way is that I must exist somewhere, because I'm even

504
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: thinking in the first place, right, so, because I'm thinking

505
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: I must exist somewhere. That's the only thing that I

506
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: can know. And then you know, um, as you know,

507
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: as I assume, decart packed up his books and was like,

508
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm done, I don't have the work. Ever again, I

509
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: did it and figure it out. The only thing I

510
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: can know? Um that same argument, Stallard, That issue, I

511
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: would say applies to the ancient astronaut theory. You know,

512
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: it becomes a point where it's like, okay, well, now

513
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: we know that, for instance, the Pyramids, the stones that

514
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: built the pyramids, we know from basic physics that that

515
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: a team of like ten people could move one of

516
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: those huge stones. You know, they would use tools, they

517
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: would use rollers and things, but it's not impossible that

518
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: they would move them. So then they say, okay, well,

519
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: maybe then the Aliens didn't build the pyramids, maybe they

520
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: just use them for something mysterious. And then we find out, well,

521
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: the pyramids were used for X, Y, and Z, and

522
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: they were constructed this way because of this, And every

523
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: time we find more answers, they they kind of pushed

524
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: the goal posts back, and they say, well, no, you know,

525
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: it's getting to the point where, you know, next season

526
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: ancient aliens are gonna be talking about how the Aliens

527
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: came down and helped us shimmy the stones over. You know,

528
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: it's like the stuff that the aliens would have to

529
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: do get smaller and smaller every year as we learn

530
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: more and more about the Age world and about these sites.

531
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: And eventually, though at the at the root of that argument,

532
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: you could always ask, well, who taught the aliens to

533
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: do that stuff? Then? If if the aliens came and

534
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: taught us how to build the pyramids and Moi and

535
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: everything else, who taught the aliens other aliensis? And so

536
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: eventually someone has to do the kind of basic science

537
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: that we're saying humans did, So what's the point of

538
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: the aliens in that in that argument? Then? Right, there

539
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: is no point of them in that argument. They go away.

540
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: And it's the same argument that comes up with things

541
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: like say what Jeb Card would call the grand unified

542
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: field theory of the paranormal of the paranormal unified field

543
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: theory UM, this idea that you know, well, in UFO cases,

544
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: when you see a UFO you're being abducted or something.

545
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: The reason that all those cases are different is because

546
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: the aliens are changing what you experience and see to

547
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: be what they want you to remember. Well, decardes demon right,

548
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: we did that already, we didn't like, we already had

549
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: this argument um and it you know, it worked out

550
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: great for Decard. But I don't think you could make

551
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: the same point now and it would work out as

552
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: well for you. So it just it becomes an argument

553
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: that and that happens a lot of times in these fields.

554
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: And it's because in my mind at least, it's because

555
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: these fields are not linked to a real academic history. Right,

556
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: there are things that people have, there are there are

557
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: actual scientists that are working on the question of what

558
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: a UFO abduction really is and what I mean by

559
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: that is something like, for instance, you can ask, if

560
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: this is a hallucination of some sort, then it would

561
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: appear that there are thousands of people in the United

562
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: States and you know, even more across the world having

563
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: the same sort of hallucinatory experience. Well, what of the

564
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: physical action that causes that experience, what's the what's the

565
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: mechanism in the brain if nothing else? Exactly right? And

566
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: and and it turns out that just like with other

567
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: types of delusions or thinking errors or whatever, people have

568
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: similar people have similar because we live in this in

569
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: a world that's kind of shaped, you know, for humans,

570
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: we have similar fears, right um, we have similar anxieties,

571
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: we have similar things that we imagine. You know, we

572
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: may not want to think that way necessarily, but there's

573
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: a reason that there are certain phobias, are certain types

574
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: of dreams that are common. It turns out that maybe this,

575
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: the abduction experience, is another one of those common things

576
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: that is, for some reason fear hole to humans that

577
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: happens due to a chemical imbalance or something or whatever.

578
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: Right um, those kinds of questions are things that we

579
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: can ask seriously, we can ask scientifically, And that one

580
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 1: kind of presupposes the reality of the situation, right, the

581
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: reality of the event itself in question. But there are

582
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: questions that we can ask that don't presuppose that. Right. Um,

583
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: there are thousands of people again, and we've met you know,

584
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: I know, I'm sure you guys have met them, right,

585
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: I know, I know, Ben, you've met them when we

586
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: went to the conference together. I've met many of them

587
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: myself too. There are people who legitimately believe that they've

588
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: they've had a terrifying experience with something from the stars,

589
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: you know. Um, that is not in dispute, right. What

590
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 1: is a dispute is the reality of that underlying thing.

591
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: But there is still a really, you know, a very

592
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: real group of people who spend money on things that

593
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: are harming them. You know, hypnosis sessions and herbal t

594
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, keys with crystals, you know, whatever in them,

595
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: and all kinds of junk. Right. There are people take

596
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: being taken advantage of. There's a philosophical question I think

597
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: there that is it ethical to let them be taken

598
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: advantage over that way? And a lot of those people, frankly,

599
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, they vote. A lot of those people make

600
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: decisions for the rest of us right, Um, with their

601
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: with their votes and with their political donations and with

602
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: their activism and everything else. So getting a grasp on that,

603
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: getting and getting an understanding of well, why do people

604
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: believe these things? What effect does that have on their

605
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: other beliefs about science or psychology or whatever, and and

606
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: how does that affect the world that we all live in?

607
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: You know, Again, those are important questions that people are

608
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: starting to grasp with, grapple with now. Um that it's

609
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of starting to have an effect. You know,

610
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, not believing in climate change, it didn't

611
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: really have an effect. Right when an entire country is

612
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: a flame, Um, it seems to mean more. We're gonna

613
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: take a short break here. We'll be right back with

614
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: Chris Cogswell right after this. And we're back with Chris Cogswell. Well,

615
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: I would I agree with that. I would also I

616
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: would also advance that just a bit to say that

617
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: there are there are things that seemed uh completely unreasonable

618
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: to believe in or to give any serious credence to

619
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: uh twenty or thirty years ago, that now are now

620
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: are accepted as fact one of the one of the

621
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: and this is outside of the realm of the hard science.

622
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: But UH. One observation that we've always made about the

623
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: term conspiracy theory is that it it is often used

624
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: to UH or the term fringe. They're often used to

625
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: reduce the credibility of something such that it is put

626
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: on the level of UH, like on the level of

627
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: the idea that the United Kingdom is run by these

628
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: descendants of reptilian aliens and for some reason they're just

629
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: old pills UH, because that's what they do. But but like,

630
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: for instance, years ago, a specific example saying that a

631
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: large amount of the so called illegal drug trade was

632
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: financed by state actors and UH financially aided by international

633
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: banking cartels. People people did say, that's crazy, that's cockamami.

634
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: It turns out that that was very much the case,

635
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: if not across the planet all the time, there are

636
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: at least several examples where that provably was true. And

637
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: in one of the reasons I think that the realm

638
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: of science UH is unique and different in regard to

639
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: this search for the truth is that we are able to,

640
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: regardless of our personal beliefs, we are able to reproduce experiments,

641
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: We were able to make observations that are consistent once

642
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: we understand all the variables involved. But I would also

643
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: I would also ask you this, this is the that

644
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: Sorry for that Ted talk guys, I just had to

645
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: get that out there. But but but I have to

646
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: I have to ask you this. This is one of

647
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: the questions that we always love to ask people who

648
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: do have scientific acumen. Do you believe that it is

649
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: possible the US or some other state actor has uh

650
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: created uh technology that would be considered you know, uh

651
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: more sophisticated than anything publicly available, Like is the Are

652
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: all these stories that we hear about suppress technology true?

653
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: And if so, to to what degree? You know? Like

654
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: we know we know that they're approving cases of say

655
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: um UFOs later turning out to be classified aircraft, right,

656
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: but a particular alloy or something that's only available at

657
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: a particular place in a skunkwork somewhere that you cannot

658
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: find anywhere else. Yeah, So, what is there credence to that?

659
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: And if so, how far does it go? What's the

660
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: uh kind of asking you to be our our canary

661
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: in the critical thinking coal mine? Here? Let me yeah? Yeah, So,

662
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: so has there ever been anything that you heard of

663
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: where you said actually that uh yeah, that that is

664
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: suppressed technology or is or would you say most of

665
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: it is more like you know campfire stories. No, well,

666
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: so I mean so, well, first off, I just want

667
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: to say, you're talking about the reptails, like that's not

668
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: the truth, and I don't so I'm a little bit

669
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: they're clearly reptiles. Look at the eyes. Um. Um. The

670
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: well in reality, right that science is always like so

671
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: there's this idea in the sciences, and actually it's it's

672
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: becoming a bigger and bigger issue. Um. Started really being

673
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: an issue in psychology in um, like the early to

674
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: late tens, right, they're not twenty times to two thousands,

675
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: right up to like twenty ten, let's say, And then

676
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: it started to bleed over into other fields. Um, it

677
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: turns out that science science has a crisis right now.

678
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: That's that's occurring with reproducibility, and the scope of the

679
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: problem in some fields is really bad. Right. So in

680
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: psychology almost a very small number of papers turned out

681
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: to be reproducible. So, in other words, that process that

682
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: you're saying, where if you do an experiment with scientific

683
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: rigor in your lab and then you publish it I

684
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: should be able to replicate those experiments. It turns out

685
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of interest in publishing replication reports

686
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen, So p will haven't been replicating experiments really,

687
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: and so now it's starting to as that technology transitions

688
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: from the lab into industry, UM, companies are realizing, oh

689
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: my god, we're wasting Like I think the last figure

690
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: I saw was it something like fifty of their research

691
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: and development budget in some in some fields, right, biotechnologies,

692
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 1: when one example, in particular, pharmaceuticals is one example, UM

693
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: of their research spend in a given year is wasted

694
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: on reports that cannot be reproduced, that are not usable science. Right.

695
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: So that that is a really real problem affecting the

696
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: sciences right now. So that's that's and that's why you

697
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: see so many UM in the news and things. You know, oh,

698
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,959
Speaker 1: cancer has been solved, right, you know, cancer has been cured.

699
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: We've we figured out a way to cure cancer. And

700
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: then that never makes it to the marketplace, right because

701
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: those papers that are so wonderful that seemed to cure cancer.

702
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: First off, it's like curing a single type of cancer

703
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: in a specific mouse genetic line. You know, you under

704
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: various specific conditions and everything else and whatever. Um. But

705
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: also a lot of those papers like, uh, there's a

706
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: reproducibility test done um on cancer research in particular, it

707
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: was something like papers couldn't be reproduced. Now, this was

708
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: back in like again the early two thousand's, right, and

709
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: it's gotten it seems to have gotten more stringent and better.

710
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: But that's it's still a problem. Right. So that's the

711
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: first thing, and it's it's not something that science podcasts

712
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: really talked about because it's kind of like the science

713
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: is dirty secret right now. Um. But it's a huge

714
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: issue in terms of the The reason I bring it

715
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: up though, not to just go on a wild tangent

716
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: um from my own ted talk um. Science is always

717
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: and it depends on the field, but science is usually

718
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: like the academic sciences are usually at minimum tend to

719
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: like twenty years advanced of what we have out there

720
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: in the marketplace, you know. Um. And so the parts

721
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: of science were were really good, the public tends to

722
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: get wrong. They tend not to know about, and the

723
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: parts that were actually pretty bad at they also tend

724
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: to be misinformed about. So give me an example, right,

725
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 1: molecular modeling, So actually modeling a chemical UM reaction taking place?

726
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: How many chemicals do you think we can react at

727
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: once on a computer and have it work in like

728
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: a sensible amount of time? But I'll say a day

729
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: just modeling a reaction, modeling a simple reaction and one

730
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: equals two chemicals interacting. Yeah, let's say like A plus

731
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: B gives you C. Okay, Okay, I understand that. Thanks easy, right? Chemical? Easy? Um?

732
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: So I'm let's how about this give me I don't know,

733
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: I was gonna I was gonna shoot really low, just

734
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: because it does seem like it is more complex than

735
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm imagining it. Okay, I'll because it's it's a hard

736
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: question to ask. It's a hard question to answer in

737
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: the first place, because it's like how many apples do

738
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: I have in my bucket? Like, um, it's not many.

739
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: It's not many molecules that we can model at once. Um.

740
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 1: And when we do model them, we model them really simply, right.

741
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: We do either something like, um, we know that A

742
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: plus B goes to C. We also know CE can

743
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: go to five other things. We know that A plus

744
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: C can go to a couple of things. You know

745
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: that B plus C can go to a couple of things.

746
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 1: So we kind of build it out that way where

747
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: it's almost more like a almost like the way Google

748
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 1: searches work. Right, it builds out almost like a neural net.

749
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: Not only a neural net, but you know, it builds

750
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: out like almost like a tree branch graph. And then

751
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: based on that, just based on pure probabilities of how

752
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: many of these things result in product A, how many

753
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: resulting product B, how many result in products. See, we

754
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: do something like a Monte Carlo simulation, and we just say, well,

755
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna get, right, where there's a cheap

756
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: it's the highest percentage chances we end up with chemical

757
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: d at the end of this reaction. So that's what

758
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 1: your prediction will happen, right, But it turns out chemistry

759
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: is really complicated. Right. When something reacts, it doesn't just

760
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: magically happen it. It reacts because the molecules strike each

761
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: other and there's enough force there. There's a forces kind

762
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: of the wrong word, but there's enough energy in the

763
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: collision that a reaction can occur, a bond can break,

764
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: and then another bond can form. Right. That's super complicated.

765
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: Um And suddenly it's suddenly chemistry is a lot less

766
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: like doing those kind of simple Mono Carlo simulations of

767
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, we have this many possible reactions and these

768
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: many possible reactions, et cetera. It turns a lot more

769
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: into something like modeling the crashing of cars right as

770
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: right of one of Carlow cars. Right, Yeah. Um, it

771
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: suddenly becomes you know, you just taken account momentum and

772
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: position and you know, do you model one dimension or two,

773
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: two or three or right? How do you do all

774
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: of that? Um? It's really it gets really complicated. We

775
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 1: can't model past like a very simple reaction at this point.

776
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: Our computers aren't fast enough, there's not enough processing power,

777
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: and frankly we don't know enough about how those reactions

778
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: happen really, right. Um. The one group that's really doing

779
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: work like this, they're basically doing those kinds of Monte

780
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: Carlo simulations um out of m I T you know,

781
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: but actually modeling like a physical chemical reaction happening between

782
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: two species that we don't study in the lab. Just

783
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: predicting based on their structure what reactions will happen. That's

784
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: basically been the same like we've been doing that the

785
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: same way since like the eighteen eighteen nineties, you know,

786
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: when the periodic table of normal elements was essentially established. Right,

787
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: So that part we're really bad at. On the other hand,

788
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: building alloys, building materials at the atomic scale, we're really

789
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: good at that. That we've been able to do for decades, right,

790
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 1: So making a ton, you know, a single layer thick

791
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: of gold that sits in between you know, sandwich between

792
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: two atomically thick layers of silver that attaches to a

793
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: silicon wafer. UM to test that surface conductivity or something.

794
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: That stuff we've been able to do since essentially since

795
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: we were young kids, you know, UM, nano engineering has

796
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: been possible. It's it's funny. Actually, the material that I

797
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: ended up working on in my PhD UM the m

798
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 1: C M twenty two m P chemical, which is Mobile

799
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: Corporation matter number twenty two and then P stands for precursor.

800
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: That chemical was actually developed the year that I was born,

801
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: like thirty miles from my house in New Jersey, UM

802
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: at at an ex On mobile plant or research and

803
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: development plant. I'm sure we've been polluted the water anywhere

804
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: at any time in Jersey. That's fine. Oh no, I've

805
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: got a couple of extra fingers. But it's fine, you know,

806
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: I mean, it really helps in the lab um. But

807
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: you know that that stuff we're really good at, like nanoengineering,

808
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,919
Speaker 1: material synthesis, material analysis, understanding, of those sorts of things

809
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: we're really strong at. So I would say in terms

810
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: of you know, the gup, you know, we don't have

811
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: like an anti gravity ray. We don't have a UFO someplace,

812
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: right That's that's that's very very unlikely. I swear, I

813
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: swear there is not a CI agent here with a

814
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: knife to my throat. Um. You know that that level

815
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: of technology, know that there's no I don't think there's

816
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: really any evidence that we have that right now in

817
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: the public space. However, the stuff that we can do

818
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: with the lab scale is is so far out of

819
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: the general realm of knowledge for most people that I

820
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: would argue that every man on the street, you know,

821
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: has no sense, really has no way of saying what

822
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: it is actually starting tofically possible right now, because we're

823
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: it's so far outstretched. What makes it into industry at

824
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 1: this point, I see? And that problem is of course

825
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: historically compounded by the UH, by the errors of pop

826
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: side reporting at times. Right, going back, going back to

827
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: your cancer in one line of a very specific cancer

828
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: in a very specific line of lab mice appears to

829
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: have been mitigated to some degree in this specific application,

830
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: with all other things controlled. And then of course cut

831
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: to daily mail forty eight hours later, cure for cancer. Uh.

832
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: Laboratory refuses to release the further details, right, probably because

833
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: they're waiting for their paper to publish. Um. Okay, so

834
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: that makes sense. It sounds like the argument then, is

835
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: is less one of nefarious activity and uh or it's

836
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 1: also an argument at least in part, that the average

837
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: person is just not plugged into that world and there

838
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 1: has to be a high level of attrition from successful

839
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: laboratory work too widespread commercial and military application. Is that

840
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: about exactly? Yeah? I mean you know a good example

841
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: that actually I actually used this example a lot in UM,

842
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: I just used this example a lot of my daily life.

843
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: I guess i'd say, is what what year do you

844
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: think the first laser beam was was done in a laboratory?

845
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: When do you think the first laser was developed? Uh? One,

846
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one. I'm gonna go eighteen, all right, split

847
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: the difference. It was like ninety was we had a

848
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: functioning laser beam in a laboratory, right, it was somewhere

849
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: around there. The first the laser beam actually making it

850
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: to the marketplace, though, The first time that technology made

851
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: to the marketplace of like everyday people was nine. And

852
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: what is its application? It was used And it wasn't

853
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: even really a public application. It was used for cutting.

854
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: It was a COEO two laser for cutting of of metal.

855
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 1: It was used in welding and metal cutting. Right. The

856
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: first the first commercial use of a laser beam actually

857
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 1: like in the public sphere was in barcode scanders in

858
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: the UM. So this technology that Einstein worked on, you

859
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: know what I mean? This is like, this is a

860
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 1: technology that changed the world as we knew it. UM

861
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 1: was was around for like sixty years earlier than most

862
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: people realize, you know, UM, and it's still stuff that

863
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: you know. That's that's the kind of argument that I'd

864
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: say it is really happening here is that first off,

865
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: science is not Science is not very good at communicating

866
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: with the public. Right, That's that's problem one, Like scientists aren't.

867
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: First off, scientists don't necessarily consider it to be part

868
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: of their job right to communicate with the public, because

869
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: the public is not really the people. In some ways,

870
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: the public is funding the science right through your tax dollars. Um,

871
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: But science as a whole, I would argue, doesn't really

872
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: feel like it's their responsibility to communicate to the public generally.

873
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: And that's a huge problem because it lets things like

874
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: these pseudo scientific ideas and everything else affect the way

875
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: that science gets done and the way that science is

876
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: funded and just people's everyday lives. You know, Um, the

877
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: government shutdowns that happened in the United States, they're like,

878
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: they're very, very detrimental for science. You know, when those

879
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: when that happens, people sell lines are dying, people's people's

880
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: experiments are not going finished, you know, because their funding

881
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: comes from the government in many cases. So it is

882
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: a serious thing. And again, I think we're just starting

883
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: to realize the reverberations that a general population distrustful of

884
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: the sciences, distrustful of experts generally, but also just misinformed

885
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:03,760
Speaker 1: in many cases. Um, you know, science can't Scientists cannot

886
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: sit in their ivory tower and just expect that it's

887
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: not you know, we're not going to feel the earthquake,

888
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: uh affect us so uh, I want to I want

889
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: to now with that context, with that lay of the land. Uh,

890
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: and I would like to ask you for a gut

891
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: check on some specific things, right, mysterious things proven or

892
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: disproven to some degree. Are they real or not? Or

893
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: could they be in the future? Uh? First up, all right, man,

894
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 1: don't hate us cold fusion? Yes, no, in the future.

895
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: What's going possible? What are your thoughts? So for listeners

896
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: that don't, I guess for people that don't really know

897
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 1: what cold fusion is, and I'm assuming you're I mean,

898
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: I know you guys, Yeah, you know, it's general knowledge

899
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: at this point, right, Um. But the basic idea is

900
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: currently what new clean energy does is fission, which is

901
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: two atoms rather an atom split in right into two

902
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: separate things. If it's physical material, it will undergo fission

903
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: and break up into two things. So uranium decays into

904
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: two things, and then that decay releases energy that we

905
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:21,240
Speaker 1: then used to turn water into steam and then power

906
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: a steam turbine. Right. That that's how we get the

907
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: energy out of the nuclear reactor. Fusion, on the other hand,

908
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: would be two small molecules coming together and making a

909
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: bigger one or not molecules, but atoms interacting coming together

910
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: and make a bigger one, releasing far more energy UM

911
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: and then of it being cold, fusion would be doing

912
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: that in a way that it could happen act say

913
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: like a room temperature right UM, where it doesn't have

914
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: to happen at the core of the sun. UM. Physics

915
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: isn't a weird spot right now, guys. Physics isn't a

916
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: really weird spot. Physics is kind of a at a crossroads. WHOA,

917
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: you're saying, there's a chance I'm saying I'm saying that.

918
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying that string theory didn't really pan out the

919
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: way that a lot of people thought it would, and

920
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: our understanding of kind of the atomic structure UM has

921
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: sort of stalled. We we've kind of known as much

922
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: as we've known since. And I'm not I'm not a

923
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 1: physicist by training, right I'm I'm a chemical engineer, so

924
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: more of like material science, I guess really would be

925
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: if you had to put a hat on me. UM.

926
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: But physics has kind of sat in the same position,

927
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: you know, since maybe really two thousands. Physics hasn't had

928
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: any really big major breakthroughs, and that's because it's getting

929
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 1: more and more energetically costly and just literally economically costly

930
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: to do the experiments that are needed to do um

931
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: for people to come to some kind of understanding. So

932
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: I would say that maybe cold fusion is a hard maybe,

933
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: let's say, right, but but but here's the thing. If

934
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: we could do it, how would we even harness that energy? Right? Um?

935
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: Nuclear power plants today are huge, right there, big fatilities.

936
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: I mean they're not you know, they're not like generous

937
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: like a crazy you know, amount of space needed or

938
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: anything else. But um, they're quite large. They have public

939
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: sentiment against them generally, I would say, Right, And this

940
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: is where that intersection between kind of politics and science

941
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: and economics and sociology and all these other things, this

942
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: is where this all comes into play. Maybe cold fusion

943
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: could happen. If it does happen, would we even put

944
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: it into development? If we did discover cold fusion, would

945
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: we even use it? I think somebody would. Somebody would

946
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: attempt to think somebody. It would probably either be a

947
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: private institution or a country that developed it, similar to

948
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project, where it would be coveted in and

949
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: the belief would be This is just my opinion, but

950
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: the belief would be that all countries are all powers

951
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: are also you know, at this cutting edge of development,

952
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: and they are soon going to find out or you know,

953
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: we cannot let anyone else find out, like a first

954
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: past the post kind of thing. And that's what it

955
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: feels like to me. Definitely could happen. Right, But this

956
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: is actually part of that argument. This is part of

957
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: the argument that happens a lot in these kind of

958
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: far out their fields, with these kinds of crazy technologies. Right.

959
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: One really famous example of a pseudoscience that is kind

960
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: of stuck around for a long time because the military

961
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: keeps funding it for god knows what reason is zero

962
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: point Energy research. Right, similar kind of idea in that

963
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: the promise of it is that we would end up

964
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: with basically a limitless source of energy. Right, we end

965
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,919
Speaker 1: up with with a perfectly if you know, almost more

966
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: than perfectly efficient system that's pulling energy essentially out of

967
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: the void. The vacuum space breaks you know, every law

968
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: of thermo dynamics. It's completely wacky. But um, it's such

969
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 1: a big promise, and you know, it's not very costly

970
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: to investigate, because you just need a pen and paper

971
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: and some knowledge of calculus. Um that you know, it's

972
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: it's all theoretical at this point, so it's not really

973
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: a hard spend, right, But um, that idea even right again,

974
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: if we did have just think about the the societal

975
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: impact that would have. Right if we if we developed

976
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: cold fusion immediately all of the geopolitics around the Middle

977
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: East goes away. Do we think that we would stick

978
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: around in the Middle East if we didn't need oil anymore?

979
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: That seems unlikely, right. Would we worry about North Korea

980
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: anymore if if we had, if we had, or would

981
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: we think about them the same way? If we suddenly

982
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: had the ability to produce a near infinite source of energy,

983
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: what would our responsibility then be to poor countries where

984
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: they don't have the resources to produce infinite energy. G

985
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: it's not going to cost us anything to transmit it

986
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: to them because it's infinite. Right, there's an infinite source,

987
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: So it doesn't really matter anymore how much efficiency it

988
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: takes to transport energy because we don't care, right, we

989
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: can just dial up the other side. Um. All of

990
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: those things are like huge, huge questions and huge issues,

991
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: And I think that there are a lot of the

992
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 1: reason why these energy technologies are stopgap a lot of

993
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: the time. I mean, actually one of the first, one

994
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 1: of the first papers I wrote about this stuff. Um.

995
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: And you know, since when I when I chose grad

996
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: school and chemical engineering, I kind of you know, you

997
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: have to at a certain point, you gotta pick. You're

998
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: sitting there in the philosophy classroom, like, am I gonna

999
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 1: go for the philosophy PhD or chemical engineering PhD? I

1000
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: went with chemical engineering, but I'm hoping one day to

1001
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: go back to get the philosophy one. But anyways, the

1002
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: one of the papers I wrote about this sort of

1003
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: subject in the kind of philosophical realm was looking at

1004
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: the United States. We've always lagged behind Europe in adopting

1005
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: energy technologies because we have a lot more resources, like

1006
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: a lot more natural resources. So the United States, Europe

1007
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: was almost done with coal by the time we started

1008
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: using it because we had so many trees that we

1009
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: could just burn them. We just didn't matter to us.

1010
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: The same thing is true about why we haven't adopted

1011
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: really nuclear energy the same way that some other countries

1012
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: have renewable energy. Right, we have so much space and

1013
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: so much water, um that it you know, having a

1014
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: dirty coal plant in your town or you know, in

1015
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: some part of the middle of nowhere in you know,

1016
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 1: um wherever, right, it doesn't have the same effect it

1017
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: does if it's in the middle of Dresden or the

1018
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: middle of Berlin or Paris. So weird. My road close

1019
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: to my house is called Dresden and I totally had

1020
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: that And sorry, there has nothing to do with anyways.

1021
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, so so there's a lot of stuff to

1022
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: think about there, But so cold cold fusion. I think

1023
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: I think it's a maybe that we would developed the

1024
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna learn more about the underlying science

1025
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: that would make something like that possible. I just don't

1026
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: I personally actually don't think that there would be enough

1027
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: economic driving force to make it become something that industry

1028
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: picks up. At present. I've got one more for you

1029
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: that we're getting out, uh, silicon based life. Go oh,

1030
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: an easy one, an easy one. Yeah, we thought, honestly,

1031
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: do you it's theoretically possible. It's I'm I wondered from

1032
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: just with your chemical background, if you imagine, I mean,

1033
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 1: obviously you can't prove it or not, but perhaps the

1034
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: likelihood that somewhere on some distant plane silicon was the

1035
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 1: chemical that brought forth life. So UM, it's yeah. I

1036
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 1: think that it's definitely a possibility. Right for listeners or

1037
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: for people that don't necessarily kind of get why silicon

1038
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: would be a good option. UM, I suggest you, if

1039
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: you're not driving or like doing something important right now, UM,

1040
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: pull up a periodic table on on the internet, and

1041
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: look at where carbon sits on the periodic table. Right,

1042
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: So carbon sits in M. Carbon is element number six,

1043
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 1: and so it sits in AH. It sits essentially in

1044
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: column fourteen, right, Um. Right underneath carbon is silica, right, silicon. Um.

1045
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 1: The reason that we think silicon could be another source

1046
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: of kind of the chemistry of life like carbon is

1047
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 1: is because they're in the same that same column of

1048
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: the periodic table. Right. Elements that are in that same

1049
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: elements in the same um column have the same electronic

1050
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: configuration in the same valence shell or outermost shell of electrons,

1051
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: and that's the shell that actually undergoes chemistry. So that's

1052
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: why we think silicon might have similar properties to carbon,

1053
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 1: and that it can bond in kind of a tetrahedral shape. Um,

1054
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: it might be very amenable to things like polymerization. And

1055
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: we actually know that silicon does essentially undergo polymerization. That's

1056
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: how we made most of my materials in school. Um. Anyways,

1057
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's a it's a possibility, right,

1058
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: But we also have a very we have a very

1059
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 1: stringent view again of what life constitutes, you know. So, um,

1060
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: we tend to think that an alien species is going

1061
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: to need to digest food in a similar way that

1062
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,919
Speaker 1: we do. We assume that they'll talk, that they'll they'll

1063
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: use sound waves to communicate to one another. We assume

1064
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 1: that they'll have you know, legs and arms, right, and

1065
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: usually they'll have two of them that just a little

1066
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 1: bit smaller and a little bit greater. There's got big

1067
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: bulbous weird heads. Um. We assume that they we assume

1068
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: that they see. We assume that they don't they only

1069
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 1: have five senses, they don't have more senses than we do,

1070
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: or they don't have less, right. All of that are

1071
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: huge assumptions, and so we make the same kind of

1072
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: assumptions with our chemistry to in some way the idea

1073
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: of it being like a silicon based life form. Um.

1074
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: We assume that that would mean something like the kind

1075
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: of amino acids and the DNA structure and everything else

1076
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: would form um where just silicon replaces carbon. And that's

1077
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: certainly one possibility. But we have no concept of what

1078
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: causes really consciousness. Right. It's one of the biggest it

1079
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: is the biggest unanswered question for and kind of the

1080
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: last hill on which metaphysics will die. Is this idea

1081
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: of consciousness if you take the material and I've said

1082
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 1: this word before, materialist, right, The materialist view in the

1083
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: sciences is this idea that, uh, everything reduces down to

1084
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: the interactions of atoms. So your emotions, if we had

1085
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 1: a powerful enough computer, your thought, know, you think of

1086
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:04,480
Speaker 1: a red ball bouncing if we hit a powerful enough computer.

1087
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 1: The materialist, the pure materialist, would argue that we could

1088
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 1: just by modeling the interactions of all of the atoms

1089
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: and all of the molecules inside of your brain, we

1090
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 1: could replicate that thought in an artificial being, and we

1091
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: could therefore cause you to have thoughts too by affecting

1092
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 1: your neural networks in different ways and whatever. A non

1093
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 1: materialist or someone who's not so inclined to believe the

1094
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 1: materialist point of view would say that you your consciousness

1095
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: does not seem to reduce fully down to those interactions

1096
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 1: of atoms. Right there are there are properties of the

1097
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: mind and of the world that don't reduce down to

1098
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: their individual parts. So, um, how would your neural network

1099
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: or how would the interaction of the atoms inside of

1100
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: your brain explain the pain you feel when remembering a

1101
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: painful moment. It's easy mirror neurons. I get it, totally understand.

1102
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: So abstracted, it's so abstracted from you know, Adam A

1103
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: interacting with Adam B and causing molecules see to be produced.

1104
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: That's a chemical that causes it. You know, it's so

1105
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: abstracted at that point that is really hard to conceptualize

1106
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 1: that that might be the link. So we don't. We

1107
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: don't even know that they need. You know, what if

1108
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: we find out in fifty years, in ten years, in

1109
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: two years, whatever, What if we find out that consciousness

1110
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: is just caused by I don't know, you know anything,

1111
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, we can pick anything that we want to

1112
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 1: be the cause of consciousness. I believe it was originally

1113
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 1: mushroom cult. Uh, they got into some psilocybin. I think

1114
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: that's where it came from, pretty sure. But you know what,

1115
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying though right like it, it could be we

1116
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 1: might not recognize life, um because we don't have the

1117
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: way to communicate with it, right, Vickenstein said famously, if

1118
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: a lion could speak, we wouldn't understand it. That's a lion,

1119
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. They think they have our chemistry, um,

1120
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 1: forget an alien that you know, might be silicon based

1121
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,839
Speaker 1: or whatever. So I don't know. I mean, it's definitely possible,

1122
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: and I think it'll be really interesting as we get

1123
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,680
Speaker 1: better chemistry to kind of try to build some of

1124
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 1: those building blocks and see if they do interact in

1125
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 1: the same way. And you know, um, we're kind of

1126
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 1: it's kind of a weird situation right now where the

1127
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 1: public generally believes in all this stuff is being possible

1128
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: um and and that's kind of bore out by the

1129
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: statistics that you quoted at the beginning and everything else.

1130
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,839
Speaker 1: Um And science is taking some of it more seriously

1131
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: than it would have before, but not in the way

1132
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: that kind of the UFO community would want them to,

1133
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 1: you know. So there you know, it's not there's not

1134
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 1: scientists coming out onto the lawn of the White House

1135
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: and be like, you know, aliens are real. You know

1136
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 1: your uncle was right the whole time. UM, at least

1137
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: they're coming out, they're coming out and saying, like, you know,

1138
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: the chances of their being life developing on another planet

1139
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: is so you know, the the chance of it not

1140
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: happening is so small that we have to take into

1141
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 1: consideration that it could be the case. Absolutely, and this

1142
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: this at this point, Christopher, unfortunately we are we are

1143
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 1: getting the signal from mission control. My friend, we've said

1144
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: too much for today. So before the UH to say

1145
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: hello to the c I a guy who's got the

1146
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: v Sallie that night figure throat UH, and hello to

1147
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 1: our intern at the n S A Steve UH. This

1148
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: has been This has been fantastic. This has been a

1149
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 1: very broad look at a number of different things. And

1150
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: I like that we're ending on a more uh inspirational note.

1151
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: You know, we truly are at a crossroads. So I

1152
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 1: I have a motion for the table, which today is me,

1153
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: Matt and everybody listening. Okay, I proposed we uh we

1154
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: promote Christopher Cogswell from from guests on stuff they don't

1155
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 1: want you to know, to our to our our our

1156
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 1: team of scientific consultants. Right science consultants are you okay

1157
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 1: with that? You're comfortable with that? Man? Do I get

1158
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:27,120
Speaker 1: a pin? Uh? We're working on the pen. And to

1159
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: be honest, great okay. Soft note a lot of the

1160
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 1: stipend is in ben bucks and it is and it's

1161
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: based it's a Germanium based uh metal. But don't worry,

1162
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: it's gonna be fine. Yeah. So seriously, we would love

1163
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 1: to we we would love to dive in more to

1164
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 1: these to these topics in future episodes. Matt and I

1165
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 1: have a list of stuff we didn't quite get to today,

1166
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:55,640
Speaker 1: but hopefully there's always another podcast in the future. So

1167
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 1: thank you very much. Christopher Cogswell. The podcast is the

1168
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,599
Speaker 1: add Scientists Podcast. Uh, Chris, Where can people learn more

1169
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 1: about you? Your co host and the show on the

1170
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: on the social meds. So you can go to the

1171
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 1: mad Scientist podcast dot com. You can also find us

1172
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,600
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mad Scientists Podcast. Um, I'll be the

1173
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:22,640
Speaker 1: one arguing with the UFO guys. That's right, that's right. Uh,

1174
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,680
Speaker 1: super fun. You can find us on Facebook. Um, you

1175
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: can always you know, find us the Mad Scientist Podcast.

1176
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:32,559
Speaker 1: Our logo is pretty pretty easy to recognize. Um, it's

1177
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: like an explosion of science stuff. With being relooking or

1178
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 1: it's a jackal aandarn face. So go check it out. Um, yeah,

1179
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 1: find us anywhere. Man. We're always happy to have people

1180
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 1: come on and talk and guys, I'd love to come

1181
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: back on any time you want me. Hey, we're we're

1182
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 1: certainly interested. We didn't talk about the Black Nights satellite.

1183
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 1: We didn't talk about cases that you couldn't explain. Yeah,

1184
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: we like, you're the closest thing you've come to experiencing

1185
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 1: that line in between magic and technology. Yeah, we guys,

1186
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: we we got so much stuff another. We have so

1187
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 1: much for another episode. You let me know when I'm

1188
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,639
Speaker 1: coming back on. Great. You were talking about abduction theories

1189
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 1: and I was like kind of crouched on my seat

1190
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: here waiting to bring up sleep paralysis and the topics

1191
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:21,000
Speaker 1: we brought up. I didn't. We didn't hit any of that.

1192
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: It's all good. Well, we'll just have everybody go through

1193
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: hypnotic regression and convince them that they did in fact

1194
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: here that other episodes. Yes, so plant some memories. That's

1195
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 1: a little ethical even for me. Yes, this ends our episode,

1196
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 1: but not our show. Please do check out the Mad

1197
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: Scientists podcast. We believe you will enjoy it. You can

1198
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 1: also continue the conversation with our favorite part of the show.

1199
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 1: Your fellow listeners find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

1200
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 1: We particularly like to recommend our Facebook page. Here's where

1201
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,080
Speaker 1: it gets crazy. If you don't want to do any

1202
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: of that stuff, you can give us a call. Our

1203
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:02,240
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1204
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 1: t K. Leave us a message. You might get on

1205
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 1: the air, or you might just entertain us, or you

1206
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: might make our day. Uh and y oh yeah, hey,

1207
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: I'm down with that. That's fun. That's still entertaining in

1208
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: my book, Mommy in Life, Right's right? Uh? And if

1209
01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: you don't want to do that either, please send us

1210
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i

1211
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You to

1212
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1213
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