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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zeph and Best

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Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel.

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Speaker 2: Cast, Game Match Point, Love Tennis podcast, fucking touching fingers, Oh,

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Speaker 2: sweaty hugs.

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Speaker 3: What do you think Tashi majored in? I was wondering

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Speaker 3: that what did Tashi major in? Because okay, sorry for

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Speaker 3: just starting the episode. I just I can't stop thinking

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Speaker 3: about what was Tashi majoring in. Was it genuinely an

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Speaker 3: athlete style journey where she was doing general studies? Or

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Speaker 3: my guess, I feel like Tashi is she a woman

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Speaker 3: in stem? Is she?

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Speaker 2: I think she was a psych major?

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Speaker 3: I was gonna guess anthropology, Okay, something like that. I

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Speaker 3: don't know. Well, wait, let's start the episode. Okay, this

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Speaker 3: is I I have true clearly cannot wait to start

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Speaker 3: talking about challengers. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name's

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Speaker 3: Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Deonte. This is our show where

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Speaker 2: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point, Jamie, what

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Speaker 2: the heck is that test? Well?

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Speaker 3: The Bechtel test is a media metric created by friend

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Speaker 3: of the show queer icon Alison Bechdel, originally for her

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Speaker 3: comic collections to watch out for Our way back in

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Speaker 3: the eighties as a one off joke, as a way

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Speaker 3: of discussing something that is relevant to our conversation today,

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Speaker 3: why there was not more queer women depicted in movies,

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Speaker 3: and has since been you know, sort of transformed into

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Speaker 3: a more generalized media metric. So our version of the

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Speaker 3: test is it requires that two characters of a marginalized

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Speaker 3: gender with names speak to each other about something other

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Speaker 3: than a man for more than two lines of dialogue,

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Speaker 3: and the dialogue should mean something.

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Speaker 2: We think so, we think so, and.

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Speaker 3: What that means to you? Look, we only have one life.

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Speaker 3: I once had the dog in me to argue about

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Speaker 3: the pedantics of the Bechdel Test, But frankly, we've got

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Speaker 3: bigger fish to fry today because we have.

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Speaker 2: Got bigger balls to hit with a racket, We've got

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Speaker 2: bigger tennis balls to hit.

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Speaker 3: I will say I watched Challengers with my dog bravely,

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Speaker 3: and he was locked in and I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 3: he doesn't usually sit for movies, and it's because there's

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Speaker 3: tennis balls everywhere. I was, literally honest, like, why is

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Speaker 3: Sunny so into this movie? And it's because there's tennis

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Speaker 3: balls in almost every scene and that's his past a dog.

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Speaker 3: He is a dog.

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Speaker 2: Wow, makes so much sense.

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Speaker 3: But yes, we have an incredible returning guest, so let's

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Speaker 3: get her in here.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 2: Yes, she's a video essayist. You remember her from our

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Speaker 2: episodes on Wild Things, Space Jam Gone Girl. It's Princess Weeks.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 4: Everyone, I'm so happy to be back. And I think

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Speaker 4: Tashi was a marketing major.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because we do see her do marketing me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally makes sense. I do feel like Tashi was

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Speaker 3: taking college. Seriously, we just didn't get to see it

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Speaker 3: happening exactly.

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Speaker 2: The movie was not interested in that. It was like,

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Speaker 2: what if she is a tennis dom Yes, and that's

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Speaker 2: what the movie's about.

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Speaker 3: Thank god, And that is a compelling question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Princess, tell us what your relationship with this

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Speaker 2: movie is.

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Speaker 4: Wow. I mean I just was so excited to see

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Speaker 4: Zendaya in a movie that had nothing to do with

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Speaker 4: anyone from Euphoria. That was initially the big draw, and

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Speaker 4: I grew up loving tennis. You know, I think every woman,

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Speaker 4: but especially every black girl grew up just loving the

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Speaker 4: Savina and Venus Williams, and so I have a lot

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Speaker 4: of just love for watching you know, black women in tennis,

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Speaker 4: and then you know the hint of bisexual men. It's

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Speaker 4: a siren song that'll get me every time. We didn't

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Speaker 4: know we were gonna have heated rivalry. So I was

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Speaker 4: just very much invested in, like, finally, after this sexless

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Speaker 4: drought that we were dealing with, with contemporary films that

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Speaker 4: actually have something that was erotic and interesting and like

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Speaker 4: for adults specifically, And so it just was this moment

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Speaker 4: of like, oh my god, an adult movie starring Zenda

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Speaker 4: that got pushed back during the pandemic. We're here, We're

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Speaker 4: back cinemas. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I feel like Challengers walked so that heated rivalry could run.

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Speaker 3: It's true. It's true. Yeah, Challengers could kiss, so heated

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Speaker 3: rivalry could absolutely raw.

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Speaker 4: Fuck Thank god for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jamie, what about you? What's your relationship with Challengers?

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Speaker 3: I really like it. I really like it. I saw

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Speaker 3: it in theaters in Boston when it first came out.

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Speaker 3: Which was kind of fun because a lot of this

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Speaker 3: movie is shot in Boston. Yeah, this was a movie

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Speaker 3: that from the second I saw the trailer, which I'm

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Speaker 3: very excited to talk about, and I was reminded of

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Speaker 3: because of Princess's wonderful video essay about Challengers and about

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Speaker 3: Tashi Duncan.

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Speaker 2: She's and yours sort.

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Speaker 4: Of like is she?

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Speaker 3: But from the second I saw the trailer, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: this is I'm in. I'm a horny. This was a

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Speaker 3: trip where I think I saw both Love Lives Bleeding

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Speaker 3: and Challengers.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, which are That's a horny day.

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Speaker 3: It was a horny, horny time for me. I was

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Speaker 3: looking to escape and there were horny movies out. It

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Speaker 3: was great. And I feel like these two movies are

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Speaker 3: weirdly in conversation with each other in a way I'm

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Speaker 3: excited to talk about. Anyways, I love Challengers. We'll be

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Speaker 3: talking about it critically today.

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Speaker 2: But man, I turned this movie.

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Speaker 3: On and I've blackout.

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Speaker 2: I'm fucked up.

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Speaker 3: I get horny. And that shot of Zendia watching the

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Speaker 3: boys kiss oh really goals a generational a generational image.

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Speaker 2: I'm very excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Also, I didn't know shit about tennis really outside of

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Speaker 3: watching Venus and Serena growing up until like two days

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Speaker 3: ago when I started getting ready for this episode, also

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Speaker 3: thanks in part to Princess's video, So I'm very excited

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Speaker 3: to live, laugh, Learn, Kitlin, what about you.

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Speaker 2: I also saw this movie in theaters in Oxford, England,

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Speaker 2: because I was there during the Shrektannic tour that Jamie

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Speaker 2: you tragically were not able to join me for.

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Speaker 3: I was in Boston witnessing death and seeing Horney movies

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Speaker 3: and see and those are sort of the two things

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Speaker 3: I was doing at that time, the.

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Speaker 2: Spectrum of life exactly, and so I just had sort

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Speaker 2: of like a free day that I didn't really have

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Speaker 2: anything else going on, and everyone was talking about Challengers.

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Speaker 2: So I went to go see it and I enjoyed

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Speaker 2: it a lot. I love the soundtrack, the score like

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Speaker 2: the music does a lot. I remember thinking that it

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Speaker 2: ended too abruptly and I wanted I kind of wish

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Speaker 2: the movie had the guts to like put them into

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Speaker 2: a throttle at the end or something, and I'll talk

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Speaker 2: more about that, but overall, I enjoyed it. This is

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Speaker 2: one of those movies where so sometimes when we watch

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Speaker 2: a movie for this podcast, and I'm prepping, and after

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Speaker 2: my first watch, I have pages and pages of notes

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Speaker 2: because it's such a cut and dry, like problematic things

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Speaker 2: that are very clear, and I have a lot to

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Speaker 2: say that is like exactly what you would expect us

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Speaker 2: to say on the podcast. And then there were other

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Speaker 2: movies where I've done my first watch and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what to make of this.

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Speaker 3: That's how you know he got a good one on

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Speaker 3: our hand?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And this was this movie. And then so I

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Speaker 2: had that experience where I watched the whole movie and

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Speaker 2: then I looked at my notes and I had not

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Speaker 2: written a single thing down. And I was like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: you were too horny. I was too horny. You're shaking

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Speaker 2: vibrating with horniness. And then I went out last night

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Speaker 2: with a friend. We got some drinks, we danced. I

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Speaker 2: haven't danced in ages, and I forgot how to fun

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Speaker 2: dancing is Wait, where'd you go this bar in? I

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Speaker 2: think I was in Cypr's park called Footsies.

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Speaker 3: Oh Footsies is so fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. I came home. I was tipsy. I was like,

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Speaker 2: I know exactly what I'm gonna say now, it was

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Speaker 2: just I just had to kind of loosen up, I think,

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Speaker 2: and now I have so many thoughts.

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Speaker 3: So this is a fascinating, Like you can watch this

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Speaker 3: movie with your brain fully on or your brain fully off,

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Speaker 3: and I feel like it's a good experience either way.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's here's the hilarious thing. I was gonna say,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of you know, this movie is challenging. I

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Speaker 2: was to discuss I was challenged. I felt challenged by

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Speaker 2: this one.

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Speaker 3: And I also like the deep lore of this movie

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Speaker 3: is so fascinating in a very parasocial way. I'm so

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Speaker 3: curious about Selene's Song and Justin Kuritzky's as a couple,

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Speaker 3: Like what is going on with those two? Because this

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Speaker 3: is Justin Kurskis, who wrote this script, has been married

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Speaker 3: to it is I think most famously Selene Song's husband,

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Speaker 3: as it should be. But he's a great writer as well,

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Speaker 3: and he is like sort of we're led. I think

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Speaker 3: like he's he's kind of portrayed in Past Lives as

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Speaker 3: the writer of Boner. Remember yeah, the husband in Past

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Speaker 3: Lives writes a book called Boner. Justin Kritzky's also wrote

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Speaker 3: a novel. So I think you know, one plus one

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Speaker 3: often equals too equals too.

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Speaker 2: I mean we see a Boner in Challengers boner representation.

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Speaker 3: And you're like, okay, yeah, genuinely Boner was on his

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Speaker 3: mind exactly at this time.

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Speaker 4: It's giving bisexual and I and I say that as

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Speaker 4: a bisexual. I'm like, there's something just very like because

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Speaker 4: he also wrote queer, I believe, right, and so there's

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Speaker 4: just something kind of algebras a quah about his work

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Speaker 4: that I'm very like intrigued ry and I'm like, tell

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Speaker 4: me more.

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Speaker 3: Me too, Yeah, I just I'm very I don't know.

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Speaker 3: There's few marriages that I'm I want to know more about,

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Speaker 3: quite honestly, but this is one of them. Also, he was,

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Speaker 3: did either of you I remember watching this in like

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Speaker 3: high school or college.

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Speaker 2: The Potion Sellar video. What what is that? What is that?

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Speaker 3: It's like it's a very like lo Res viral video

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Speaker 3: from twenty eleven. It's so silly and it's justin Kurtzky,

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Speaker 3: he like went viral in twenty eleven for being wait.

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Speaker 3: I do think you should both watch it.

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Speaker 4: It makes me love it.

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Speaker 3: So it's literally it's so twenty eleven that it's a

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Speaker 3: joke that is based on a filter on photo booth.

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Speaker 4: Oh oh, photo booth. I kept so many nudes in there.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh, yes, I used to love this video. It's

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Speaker 3: so old that he wrote challenges.

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Speaker 4: You know what. This is why we say that, like

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Speaker 4: men's rights do matter, because imagine a while. Every once

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Speaker 4: in a while you need a man who can just

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Speaker 4: do something like this for you.

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Speaker 2: It's true, it's true.

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Speaker 4: I love that we have more subscribers than him, though

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Speaker 4: that's also reassuring, very true.

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Speaker 2: One day anyway, So should we take a break and

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Speaker 2: then come back for the recap? Let's do it. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So here's the recap. We are in New Rochelle, New York.

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Speaker 3: Ever heard of it? I hadn't.

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Speaker 2: I had because someone who I dated in college briefly

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Speaker 2: was from there. Also, speaking of okay, I forgot the

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Speaker 2: other part of my history with challengers. With tennis. I

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Speaker 2: bought a tennis racket my freshman year of college because

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Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to get into tennis. I

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Speaker 2: took a few lessons from a sophomore student who was

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Speaker 2: on the men's tennis team. I took a couple lessons,

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Speaker 2: and I was like I'm not good at this. I

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Speaker 2: like it, but I'm not sure if this is the

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Speaker 2: sport for me, because if I'm not automatically great at something,

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Speaker 2: I immediately quit me too. But I kind of kept

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Speaker 2: taking lessons with him because I thought he was very hot.

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Speaker 3: Kitlyn, you have a pattern of doing this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not wrong.

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Speaker 3: You're a bit of a challenger yourself.

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of a challenger in this way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then I eventually was like, uh, I'm busy, I

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Speaker 2: can't anymore. Flash forward to four years later, I see

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Speaker 2: this guy at a bar and I was like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 2: remember me. I took tennis lessons from you, and he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I remember, And I was like should we kiss or something?

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Speaker 2: And then and then I started a torrid affair with

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Speaker 2: this man. And when I say that, I mean we

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Speaker 2: had really bad sex because he was really bad at

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Speaker 2: sex a couple of times. And then I was like, wow,

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Speaker 2: I also quit this because this time, this time, you're

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Speaker 2: the one who's bad at the thing, and I'm out

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Speaker 2: of here. And so that's my hero Tennis.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for many reasons, But I just find that

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Speaker 4: that's very tashy duncan of you.

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Speaker 3: I feel like Hashi Duncan does not have time for

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Speaker 3: someone who well, actually, I don't know. Do do we

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Speaker 3: think our Donaldson is good at sex?

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Speaker 4: I think so.

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Speaker 2: I feel like he's a tender lover.

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Speaker 3: I think he's a giver. I think he's definitely a giver.

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Speaker 4: He can find the clip, but he finds it so

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Speaker 4: quickly that the appeal gets lost, you know, because she

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Speaker 4: likes the challenge. Yeah, exactly, Yes.

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Speaker 3: It was really it was really interesting like watching this

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Speaker 3: movie not just to get horny, but to really pay

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Speaker 3: attention to the relationship dynamics because I think, like, Mike

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Speaker 3: is it Mike Feist? Feist?

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Speaker 2: Is that how we say it? Fist.

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Speaker 3: I feel like his performance was talked about the least

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Speaker 3: and I understand why, but I think he's really cooking

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Speaker 3: in this he is. He plays he plays the cock

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Speaker 3: very well.

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Speaker 2: I find his relationship dynamic with Tashi very compelling and

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Speaker 2: again goals because I want to be a domb to

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Speaker 2: a man.

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Speaker 4: Sub Yeah, as my friend Sidy would say, all blonde

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Speaker 4: men should be submissive. And he has like perfect bottom face,

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Speaker 4: like it's just like it's just like you look at it,

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Speaker 4: your like absolutely, it's the big eyes his open face,

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Speaker 4: but he's like very masculine still, but there's this like

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Speaker 4: tenderness where it's like, yes, open.

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Speaker 3: He's kind of like a diabolical bottom too, because he's

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Speaker 3: always like best kind, he's scheming. I kind of Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was so taken in by the Patrick of it all,

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Speaker 3: which is always the case. You get taken in by

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Speaker 3: the Patrick, and then, like Tashi, you dump him.

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Speaker 2: You come for the Patrick, you stay for the art.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but then you get bored of art, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's like it's it is, and then you maybe start

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Speaker 3: dating women. And that's maybe Tashi's story. We don't know.

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Speaker 3: We don't know. We just know that at the end,

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Speaker 3: she's still blue baled. She's like, when are these men

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Speaker 3: gonna play real tennis? Yeah, they're hugging like losers. She

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Speaker 3: does not care about their relationship being resolved. She's like,

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Speaker 3: play tennis. I love her.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So we're in New Rochelle right right, it's twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: We are at a tennis competition sponsored by Phil's Tired Tone.

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Speaker 3: It's so random that we're in twenty nineteen, by the way,

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Speaker 3: like it is a period piece by way of like

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Speaker 3: three years. It's weird, but I thought it was kind

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Speaker 3: of fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think it's just so that they could do hot

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Speaker 3: in here in the flashback. That's the only that's the

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Speaker 3: only reasoning I could find.

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Speaker 4: And that's worth it.

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Speaker 3: That's worth it.

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Speaker 4: Apparently that's not the song that was playing and the

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Speaker 4: scene happened because everyone was like, why isn't Day of

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Speaker 4: Dancing so like off beat offat high here? And then

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Speaker 4: she was like, it wasn't me, guys. Apparently, like when

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Speaker 4: they were filming, it was like a Bowie song or

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Speaker 4: something melodic and dreamy, and then they just put in

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Speaker 4: hot in air and close, so sday I can dance, guys,

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Speaker 4: don't let them fool you.

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Speaker 2: I love movie. Wow, that's great movie magic. Anyway, So

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Speaker 2: there it fills tire Town Challenger, and I will mention

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Speaker 2: Phil's tire Town one hundred times throughout this throughout this

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Speaker 2: recap because we keep cutting back to this match. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: we meet Patrick Zwag played by Josh O'Connor and Art

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Speaker 2: Donaldson played by Mike fight story however you se it, yeah,

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Speaker 2: who play each other in a series of matches and

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Speaker 2: watching them in the stands is Tashi Donaldson formerly Tashi

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Speaker 2: Duncan played by Zenda, who is married to Art, and

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Speaker 2: then both men look at Tashi meaningfully and we're like, hmm,

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Speaker 2: what's that all about? This movie?

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Speaker 3: Is the male gaze is back and it's in the

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Speaker 3: movie Challengers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are seeing men.

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Speaker 3: Gaze and not respectfully, but I'm into it.

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Speaker 2: I don't I kind of don't mind it. We also

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Speaker 2: see tennis ball gaze. We are seeing things from the

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Speaker 2: point of view of a tennis ball. At one point,

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 3: Trying to track that because I do think that we

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Speaker 3: generally see Tashi play tennis from the male gaze, but

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Speaker 3: we do see the guys play tennis from the female gaze.

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Speaker 3: It's not like it's exclusively the male gaze. And then

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Speaker 3: occasionally we switch to the tennis balls gaze, which I

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Speaker 3: had never even considered.

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Speaker 4: It's the pan sexual gaze. Everyone is getting their own

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Speaker 4: vision of like what makes them horny, and the tennis

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Speaker 4: ball just wants to be held, you know, it wants

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Speaker 4: to be at the center of the passion.

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Speaker 3: That's where my cocker Spaniel really locked in. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: what about the tennis ball.

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Speaker 4: Finally, someone talking about the main character.

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Speaker 2: A protagonist of challengers the tennis ball. Okay, Then we

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Speaker 2: cut to two weeks earlier. We learn more about Art

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Speaker 2: and Tashi. Tashi is a former tennis champ but had

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Speaker 2: to retire and end her career early after a knee injury.

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Speaker 2: She is now Art's like coach slash manager. They also

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Speaker 2: have a daughter together who loves into the Spider verse,

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Speaker 2: so you know she has great taste.

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Speaker 3: I love that was a great child representation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we see Art play a match and lose. He

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Speaker 2: is apparently rusty after recovering from a recent injury. Tashi

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Speaker 2: tells him to get his shit together and start winning,

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Speaker 2: which is why she suggests that he plays something that

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Speaker 2: he's sure to win, such as this Phil's Tired Town challenger.

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Speaker 2: And I don't exactly know enough about tennis to know

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Speaker 2: specifically what a challenger is or what the parameters of

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Speaker 2: it are.

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Speaker 3: My understanding, because I really tried to understand tennis for this,

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Speaker 3: and I did. I stayed up late last night watching

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Speaker 3: one of many Venus and Serena docs, and I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I just like anyway, I was trying to get caught up.

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Speaker 3: A challenger I think is like a low rung pro match.

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Speaker 3: But like harder to be a lower rung. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of JV but it's still technically pro tennis.

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Speaker 2: And is it the type of thing that, depending on

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Speaker 2: how you rank in it, it can like qualify you

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Speaker 2: for one of these US open kind of things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because Patrick says that on his very depressing date

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Speaker 3: that poor woman, I know, but yeah, we're I think

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Speaker 3: he's saying that, like this is something that could, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you perform well, it could sort of get you

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Speaker 3: into one of those top one hundred and twenty whatever spots.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So then we cut to Patrick Zwag who

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Speaker 2: is trying to get a room at a hotel so

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Speaker 2: that he can rest before this tire Town Match Challenger

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Speaker 2: thing that he is also playing and it starts the

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Speaker 2: following day, but he's completely broke and he can't afford

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Speaker 2: to pay for the room, so he sleeps in his car.

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Speaker 2: He's hoping to win the Challenger because the winner gets

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Speaker 2: seven thousand dollars, so he's in kind of dire straits,

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Speaker 2: although we learn later that he comes from a very

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Speaker 2: well to do family, and it seems like he could

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Speaker 2: ask his family for money and then he just chooses

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Speaker 2: not to, so One of the most frustrating personality types

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Speaker 2: is rich guy. Cosplaying as poor guy is exhausting.

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Speaker 4: And it's like it's like pure early hobosexual representation. It's

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Speaker 4: just like, how does he where does he live? Underneath people?

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Speaker 3: That's how he like kind of a guy. I feel

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Speaker 3: like I met a lot of guys like this in college.

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Speaker 3: A guy that you are like, oh wow, I feel

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Speaker 3: like I have stuff in common with him, and then

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Speaker 3: later you see what his family is like, and you're like,

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Speaker 3: I cannot believe I've lent this person money. He's really frustrating,

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Speaker 3: which of course means that he's probably great at sex.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely. Also, I just love Josh O'Connor, Like, I know,

399
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Speaker 4: hot man, hot politics, hot girlfriend.

400
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Speaker 3: Like yes, wait, what's her? I just saw her out

401
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Speaker 3: the Saving Grace of Wuthering Eye.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, she's so they're so good together, Irish love. And

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Speaker 4: I'm just like, that's a third I would be in between.

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Speaker 4: It's just like, I will, I'll sign up for that

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Speaker 4: challenger events.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's your challenger.

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Speaker 2: So Patrick checks in for this tournament, where by the way,

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Speaker 2: there is Duncan Donuts representation because the woman that he

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Speaker 2: checks in with is eating a Dunk's egg and cheese

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Speaker 2: and bagel sandwich.

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Speaker 3: I was doing the same thing just this morning.

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Speaker 2: I was like, yes, we're so.

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Speaker 4: Wow is what the culture is feeling, you know.

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Speaker 2: Dunce is back. Yeah. Then we flash back to thirteen

415
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Speaker 2: years prior. Patrick and Art are eighteen years old. I

416
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Speaker 2: think they're best friends. They are playing doubles tennis together

417
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Speaker 2: at the Junior US Open. They win their match, and

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Speaker 2: then they watch Tashi Duncan play. They do not yet

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Speaker 2: know her, but they know of her and they're like

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Speaker 2: hubba hubba a wooga, both at how attractive she is

421
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Speaker 2: and also her amazing tennis skills. Because she is a champ.

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Speaker 2: They spot her at a party that night where she

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Speaker 2: is dancing offbeat too hot in here. They sprint up

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Speaker 2: to her. It is comical how they just rush her

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Speaker 2: and they're like, hey, what's up? Where Art and Patrick?

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Speaker 3: They also humiliatingly call themselves fire and Ice when they're

427
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Speaker 3: I know, I do feel like they capture a beautiful

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Speaker 3: like men being embarrassing together like as teenagers. It's really

429
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Speaker 3: captured Fire and Ice. And she's like, so, who's who

430
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Speaker 3: and they're.

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Speaker 4: Like yeah, It's like it's one of those things where

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Speaker 4: it's like there are moments for like, I am attracted

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Speaker 4: to men, and it just it's like it was one

434
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Speaker 4: of those moments where it's kind of like as painful

435
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Speaker 4: as it is, I'm so I would be so lost.

436
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Speaker 4: I would be like this would work on me. And

437
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 4: I hate that.

438
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 3: I mean especially the moment where yeah, I was like, wow,

439
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 3: I've pit alone in this cabin for too long, where

440
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: clearly like they're just gonna wait for her as long

441
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 3: as they need to for her to pay attention to them,

442
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: and it seems like they wait for hours hours, and

443
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 3: it is just like God being on the receiving end

444
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: of that. Even if you're like not particularly attracted to

445
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 3: the person doing it, it can just be like I'm

446
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: so powerful, this rocks now go away, Oh so beautiful.

447
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 4: It's like it's one of those things where like I'm like,

448
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: I love this. I just love I just love her power.

449
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 3: I love yeah, just.

450
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 4: The way that she like sits in her own will.

451
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 4: And I think that's what makes Tashi such an interesting character.

452
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 4: And I think just from like a character's standpoint, it's

453
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: such an interesting thing for Zendeia to do because I

454
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 4: think that this is something that her career really needed,

455
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: because she was going in that space where she's been

456
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 4: paying like young adults and like teenagers for such a

457
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 4: long period of time, even though she isn't like she

458
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 4: is thirty, and it felt like her first truly adult role.

459
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 4: And I just want her to find her Ryan Kugler

460
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 4: or her Naya da Costa who will like really take

461
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 4: all of her acting potential and start curating movies around

462
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 4: her for that potential, which I think this movie really

463
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 4: well does.

464
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm very excited for the drama for that reason.

465
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: I'm like very curious if that utilizes her the way

466
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 3: she deserves to be utilized.

467
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: Is that the one that she's in with Robert Pattinson?

468
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, which as soon as I saw that casting,

469
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 4: I was like inspired, especially because especially because now you know,

470
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 4: Tom Holland is now Tom Zendaya and like locking her

471
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: down as you should, and that's he's got that art

472
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 4: energy in real life, Oh for sure. Yeah, and we're

473
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: rooting for it.

474
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 3: He really does. Yeah, It's just I love their relationship.

475
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: I love that I know basically nothing about it, and

476
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 3: I love they're seeing like little bits and pieces of

477
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 3: her and Robert Pattinson in conversation with each other. Is

478
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 3: so funny because she is like so clearly the adult

479
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: in the room in spite of the fact that he's

480
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: I think, like ten years older than her. Where she's

481
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: just she's so poised. I love her.

482
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 4: She's amazing. Actually I think she's older than him.

483
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: No, the same age, No, the same age really with

484
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 3: her and Tom Holland, I was talking about Robert Pattinson.

485
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: Oh, Robert Pattinson.

486
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 3: Yes, Oh my god, sorry, Robert Pattinson's like forty yes, yeah,

487
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 3: oh my gosh. He's really close to your age. He's

488
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: born on May thirteenth.

489
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. We always figure this out. I always look,

490
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: this has happened on the podcast several times. I find

491
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: out his birthdays right next to mine and that we're

492
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: the same age.

493
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 4: I love that. Well, he's gen z emotionally, so that's why.

494
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: Yes, right right, right, right right.

495
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: Okay. So they're at this party. They wait for her

496
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 2: because their conversation gets cut short. They're desperate to talk

497
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: to her, so they stick around. They invite her to

498
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: hang out. She agrees. They talk about tennis, and she's

499
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: basically like, you guys are not tennis players. You think

500
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: you are but you're not. Tennis is a relationship and

501
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: that's not what you're doing when you're playing. And then

502
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: they're like, by the way, we both want your number,

503
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: and we also want you to come to our hotel

504
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: room later tonight, and she's like, yeah, okay, but she

505
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: does show up then, Yeah.

506
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 3: Such a great sequence that, like you see everyone's perspective

507
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: in this where they're like, she's not coming, and then

508
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 3: there's a knock on the door and I think Mike

509
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: does a flip over.

510
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: Himself, yeah, to get you some resaults off the bed.

511
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: But the underrated part of that sequence is when you

512
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: see Zendia hearing all of this happening and like laughing

513
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: from behind the door and then pulling it together in

514
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 3: time for the door to open.

515
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: It's so good cinema, so powerful.

516
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: I just I just love how thirsty they are for

517
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 4: her the entire time. It's just like it's just like, yes,

518
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 4: actually you should be thirsty for her.

519
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: One of the hottest people ever to be alive.

520
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 4: And just cool. Like I think also what makes the

521
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: Tashi character work is that Zandia is cool. Like Zendeia

522
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 4: has like that quality of her that makes her seem

523
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: intense and then also just like high glamots like, yes,

524
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 4: this totally makes sense.

525
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: An icon, Yeah, it's true. Okay. So she's in their

526
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: hotel room. They're kind of flirting. She asks if they've

527
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: ever hooked up with each other, and they're like, well, no,

528
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: but no, we learned that Patrick taught Art how to

529
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: jerk off.

530
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: Okay, so we have the top bottom established, got it,

531
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: got it, got it?

532
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 4: Just just boys being boys, you know.

533
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: Yep, I love being a teenager who does not yet

534
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: realize you're bisexual. You're just like, no, that was just

535
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: like a weird thing that happened.

536
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: Was I just taught my homeboy how to jerk off,

537
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 4: Like someone has to do it, right, So.

538
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: I was like no, me and my best friend would

539
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: just practice kissing to Madonna's American Life, Like it's just

540
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: sort of like so we would know how to kiss

541
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: when boys wanted to kiss us.

542
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 4: We just trying to keep warm in the wintertime, and

543
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: you keep warm by snuggling and making out like obviously obvious.

544
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: Just girls being girls, Yes, Okay. So then Tashi sits

545
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: on the bed and beckons for them to join her,

546
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: and they leap at the opportunity. She kisses Art, then Patrick,

547
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: then back to Art and back and forth, and then

548
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: there's a three way kiss which she backs away from.

549
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: So now it's just Art and Patrick making out and

550
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: she's loving this again. The look on her face, Oh oh,

551
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: it's gorgeous. It's just beautiful.

552
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: And I did not know so that is not in

553
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: the original script written by the potion Master. The potion

554
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: Master himself, the Passion Master himself. This was insisted upon

555
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: by queer icon Luca Guadnina, who said, who had a

556
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: very Italian way of describing why this needed to happen.

557
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 3: This is from an interview with the potion Master. Luca

558
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: felt it was very important that in any love triangle

559
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: all the corners touch, and I quickly realized.

560
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: He meant it literally.

561
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, that's so Italian, that's beautiful.

562
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 4: Let him remake the Twilight movies.

563
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: Let the tips touch, is what Luca said.

564
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they're making out and Tashi is loving it,

565
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: and then she goes to leave and they're like, well,

566
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: what about your number? And she says, whoever wins the

567
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: match they're competing against each other in the following day

568
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: will get.

569
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: Her number, because at the end of the day, what

570
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: Tashi Duncan wants to have sex with is Tennis's tennis. Yes,

571
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 3: and that is why she can never fully be satisfied

572
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: and it is an incredible it's so cool.

573
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: Okay, Then we cut to their match. They are both

574
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: desperate to win so as to get Tashi's number, but

575
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: before we know the result, we cut back to Phil's

576
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: tire Toalne Challenger. Although it's a few days before the

577
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: match where Patrick and Art each other. Patrick is on

578
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: Tinder swiping right on everyone because we learn that he

579
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 2: needs a place to sleep. That night, he gets a

580
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: match and goes on a date. He surprise kisses this date,

581
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: and I do not like the way that is handled.

582
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: But at the bar he sees Tashi and she's like,

583
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: what the fuck are you doing here, so we learn

584
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: that oops, they're not on good terms. We flash back

585
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: to thirteen years prior after the one on one match,

586
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: which apparently Patrick won, because now Art is prying for

587
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: details about whether or not Patrick and Tashi have had sex,

588
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: and Art says, if you do serve the ball like

589
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: I do, because he has this specific serving habit, and

590
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: if they didn't have sex, Patrick should just serve it

591
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: like himself because the whole thing here is Tashi was like,

592
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: I don't tell anyone that we're fucking because I'm embarrassed

593
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: to do what seems Yeah, I do.

594
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: Think it's kind of funny that she does seem to

595
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: be like a deal is a deal. I guess you're

596
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: my boyfriend now, Like, well, you didn't have to honor that,

597
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 3: but you.

598
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: Did date the fuck boy first. She well, she I

599
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 2: think she uses men to vicariously have sex with them

600
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: so that she can feel like she's having sex with

601
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: tennis with tennis. So she keeps Patrick around.

602
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: And this is where Tashi Duncan and my Sonny have

603
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: a lot in common in that way. Yeah, you can't

604
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: just have sex with a tennis ball, so you have

605
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: to figure out how else can you satisfy exactly.

606
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to find a human conduit by which

607
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: you can have sex with tennis. And that's what Tashi

608
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: is doing the whole movie. Okay, then Patrick serves it

609
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: like Art serves the ball, indicating that Patrick and Tashi

610
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: did indeed have sex, and Art is jealous.

611
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 3: No, he's fine, He's fine, that's this whole thing. He's like,

612
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 3: that's fine. Actually, he's so like clenched spiritually.

613
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. Then it is twelve years prior to the present,

614
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: so it's like a year after the boys have met Tashi.

615
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: Tashi and Art are both at Stanford on tennis scholarships.

616
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: It seems they're pals, though Tashi and Patrick are still dating,

617
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: much to Art's dismay because it's clear that he is

618
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: absolutely in love with her. Then Patrick comes to campus

619
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: to visit Tashi, but first he's hanging out with Art.

620
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:53,439
Speaker 2: They're sitting very close to each other eating churros parentheses phallic. Yeah,

621
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: they're they're not.

622
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 3: You know, it's not subtext, it's just text text. Anytime

623
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: these guys are eating there, it's it's a full dick.

624
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: Oh it's bananas. Oh, it's true's I'm surprised they don't

625
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: eat a hot dog.

626
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 4: And they take a bite out of each other, like

627
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 4: like that's love, that's that's an indirect kiss.

628
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's them making out again. Basically, Patrick senses that

629
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: Art is still into Tashi and that he's trying to

630
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: get in between them and like kind of break them up.

631
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: And Patrick is like.

632
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 3: He's kind of like turned on by this.

633
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: He's like he's like, honestly, this is hot and it's

634
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: making you a better tennis player. Tashi is also turned

635
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: on sexually and athletically by this love triangle situation. There's

636
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 2: a scene where she's trying to coach Patrick, who seems

637
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 2: to have just like I don't think he's in college.

638
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: I think he went straight to pro. And then we

639
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: start to see this the beginning of this sort of

640
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: like domb sub dynamic that she's projecting, where she is

641
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 2: the dom and she wants to coach men, tell them

642
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: what to do, tell them how to play tennis, and

643
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: she wants a submissive man to be receptive to that.

644
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: Trouble is, Patrick is not into it, so they argue

645
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: and then he leaves. Tashi goes to her match, where

646
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 2: she's playing great until this is when she very badly

647
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: injures her knee and Art, who is at the match,

648
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: runs to her side. Patrick shows up once he has

649
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: heard what happened, but Tashi and Art send him packing,

650
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: and now it's Tashi and Art together.

651
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 3: It's so interesting how like, I don't know on this

652
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: rewatch there whatever in this specific way that like someone

653
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 3: who knows you as you're growing up can just clock

654
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: you and clock your intentions in ways that people you

655
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 3: meet as an adult kind of can't no matter how

656
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 3: close you are to them. Patrick, while a huge asshole,

657
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 3: is really good at knowing what people are up to and.

658
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: Just saying it.

659
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: Because what he says to Art a few scenes earlier

660
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: of like, I know, it's like not your style to

661
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: just make a move. You're just gonna hang out in

662
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 3: the sidelines until I fuck up, and then you're gonna

663
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: swoop in, which is exactly what happens.

664
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 4: This third eye is so open. It's like he's like

665
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 4: he's like he only uses it for evil, evil and sex.

666
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 4: That's it's like, I can do two things, three things

667
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: really well, and none of them are constructive to my

668
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 4: men's wealth.

669
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 3: Right, But like he he at different points, like especially

670
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: with Art, because they're you know, the boner boys from boarding.

671
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 2: School or whatever. The Jerkoff Brothers.

672
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Jerkoff Brothers, disgusting brothers. They're the disgusting brothers. Farness,

673
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 3: they're the disgusting brothers. But with Tashi too, like he

674
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 3: much later in the movie pretty much states the state

675
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 3: of her marriage after witnessing it for like twelve seconds,

676
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, well, you're not wrong.

677
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: It's all true.

678
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 4: And that's the worst part. There's nothing worse than your

679
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 4: ex being right about your life. You're like, shut up,

680
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 4: you don't know me, hot dog man.

681
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, meanwhile, sometimes you get clocked.

682
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 3: You get clocked by the hot dog man.

683
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Then we get another quick glimpse of the Phil's

684
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: tire Town match between Art and Patrick, because the movie

685
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: again keeps periodically cutting back to this. Then we flash

686
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: back to the aftermath of Tashi's injury. She is recovering,

687
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: she's practicing with Art, but her game is not what

688
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: it used to be. It's pretty clear that her tennis

689
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: career is over, as is her relationship with Patrick, and

690
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: again Art is there to console her. Then we to

691
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: three years after that. Tashi is now coaching tennis. Art

692
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 2: is a rising star. He suggests she be his assistant

693
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: coach and she's like, well, what about how you're in

694
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 2: love with me? And he's like, TIHI, I don't know.

695
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 3: Also, this all happens at an Applebee's, which is great.

696
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 4: Yes, we love the representation of the working classes, like.

697
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: We sure do. And then he's like, hey, what if

698
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: we kiss? And she responds by going and they're making out.

699
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 2: Then we cut back to tire Town timeline. A little after,

700
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: Tashi and Patrick have run into each other and he

701
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: approaches her to be like, will you be my coach?

702
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: And she says, okay, here's my coaching. Quit tennis, you bitch.

703
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: And they talk a little bit about her relateationship with Art,

704
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 2: how she clearly resents him, and then Patrick asks if

705
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: Art knows about Atlanta and we're like, hmm, what happened there?

706
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: We flash back to eight years prior in Atlanta, where

707
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: Art and Tashi are because he's competing in the Atlanta Open,

708
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: as is Patrick. And during the tournament, Patrick runs into

709
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: Tashi late at night when she's having a drink at

710
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: a bar.

711
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 3: And he's also wearing her shirt because it's a shirt

712
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 3: she is wearing in college that he's clearly hung onto,

713
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: the shirt that says I told you, oh wow, shows

714
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: up at the hotel wearing on her shirt and you're like, oh,

715
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 3: he's such a slug. Yeah, he really is. He's really

716
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: testing the boundaries. I love him. He's so easy, Like

717
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 3: the fuck, I hate him, love it, I hate him,

718
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 3: but I love him.

719
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 4: Oh God, I'm so powerful.

720
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: They start kissing, and then a little later Art sees

721
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: the two of them, not while they're kissing, but they're

722
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: like close and cozy. He gets distracted for a moment

723
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 2: and when he looks back, they are gone. It seems

724
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: like they've left together. And I believe the implication is

725
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 2: they go to have sex with each other.

726
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Art pretends he does not see it. He's

727
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: that's kind of his mode.

728
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: He's like my femdom wife or I think fiance at

729
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 2: this point can do whatever she wants and I can't

730
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: say a damn thing about it.

731
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 4: And it's true, you really can't.

732
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 3: That's the arrangement.

733
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 4: You get what you pay for.

734
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: We cut back to the night before the Art Patrick

735
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: match at the tire Town Challenger. Art tells Tashi that

736
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: he wants to quit tennis soon, that he's tired and

737
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: worn out, but he also wants thealidation one way or

738
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 2: another from Tashi, because again, that's his whole thing, constantly

739
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: seeking validation from her. He's like, hold me until I

740
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 2: fall asleep, mommy.

741
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 3: And she does kind of the opposite of that.

742
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: She does for a little bit, but this makes her

743
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: absolutely despondent. So after Art falls asleep, she links up

744
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: with Patrick to tell him that she wants him to

745
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: lose tomorrow so that Art will have the confidence to

746
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: keep playing. And Patrick is like, fuck you, I'm pretty

747
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: sure you came here tonight to have sex with me,

748
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: and she's like, no, I didn't. And then he's like, yes,

749
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 2: you did, and she's like maybe. And then as they're

750
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: sort of arguing about this, and also she spits in

751
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: his face.

752
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. She also has like slapped him earlier this like

753
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 3: earlier in the day, like for the week. Everyone is

754
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: getting off on all of this.

755
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: It's so toxic.

756
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. So she spits in his face. She storms away,

757
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: but then she turns back around and they start passionately

758
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: making out. They have sex in his car, and it

759
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: seems like the agreement is basically because she fucked him,

760
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: he will agree to lose the following day to Art.

761
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: We cut back to the end of the match. It

762
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: is neck and neck. It's unclear who will win. It's

763
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: unclear whether or not Patrick will honor this agreement. Patrick

764
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,879
Speaker 2: is about to serve and then he does the callback

765
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: to the thing that we saw earlier in the movie,

766
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: which is that he serves the ball like Art does,

767
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: indicating that he and Tashi recently had sex.

768
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 4: Everyone in my theater gasped when this happened. It was

769
00:44:54,200 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 4: like a miseral line.

770
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 2: And Art is shook to his very core. Yeah, Patrick

771
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 2: stars again. He wins the match, but there's one match left,

772
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: a tiebreaker.

773
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: I do love the Wikipedia summary for this. They say

774
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: during the tie break, Art and Patrick furiously trade ground strokes.

775
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 3: And you're like, oh, yeah, okay, the strokes.

776
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 2: The jerk off brothers strike again, you know when you're

777
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 2: you know, and the discussing brothers are furiously trading strokes.

778
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 4: Oh my god, they put they put a little dot

779
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 4: on each other's head to be like, I choose.

780
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: I I would describe it as them volleying back and forth.

781
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: But what do I know.

782
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a hornier way to say that. And

783
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 3: one and one disgusting Wikipedia user did sound.

784
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 2: The way yeah, and I U. They're doing this. They're

785
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: getting closer and closer to each other, and eventually they're

786
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: so close that Art jumps up and then kind of

787
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: lands on Patrick and they're hugging. And then also Art

788
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 2: won the match. Just now because we cut to Tashi

789
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: and she's very, very happy, and that's how the movie ends.

790
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: So let's take a quick break and we'll come back

791
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: to discuss.

792
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 3: And we're back, and we're back, I mean hard to

793
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 3: beget princess guests choice, Where would you like to start?

794
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:52,479
Speaker 4: Oh my god?

795
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 3: So we furiously trade ground strokes throughout this discussion.

796
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: What is podcasting? What is a conversation if not.

797
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 4: But groundstroking over the air into your ears? You know.

798
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 4: I think one thing I was thinking about in preparation

799
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 4: for this specific conversation. I know we'll get into, like

800
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 4: if it passes the Bechdel test later, but I wonder

801
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 4: what you guys feel about Tashi being often the sole

802
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 4: woman in the room aroung these two men, because I

803
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 4: feel like that in itself is like this interesting conversation

804
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 4: because she is arguably the most talented of the three

805
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 4: of them, but she's also the most marginalized, and that

806
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 4: really sort of plays into her relationship to both of them,

807
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 4: because she is sort of between these two white men,

808
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 4: who are, you know, gonna get more opportunities than her

809
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 4: no matter how talented she is, And then with her injury,

810
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 4: she kind of ends up having to almost lean on them.

811
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 4: It's like an interesting dynamic between her and the two boys.

812
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 4: And I find that, besides the sexiness of it. I

813
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 4: find it just like narratively compelling.

814
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I feel like I And this was

815
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 3: something that I was like because I watched your video,

816
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 3: did a bunch of tennis research, and then rewatched Challengers

817
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 3: because I was trying to like take the horny gauze

818
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: off of my previous viewings of it. And you said

819
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: something in your video that really stuck with me, which

820
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 3: is that we really only see Tashi once that isn't

821
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 3: in a scene with one of the guys. This is

822
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: definitely not true for the guys. We see the guys

823
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 3: together alone a number of times, which is why I

824
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 3: think they are ultimately kind of the protagonists of the movie,

825
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 3: even though Tashi is the central figure. But the only

826
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 3: time I think that we see Tashi without one of

827
00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 3: them is when she's alone on campus after she's been injured.

828
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 4: The tree crying. Yeah, yes, that's.

829
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 3: The only time we see her certainly alone, but also

830
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 3: like without one of the guys. That and like the

831
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 3: moment she gets back from having sex with Patrick. But

832
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 3: that's only a couple seconds really, And it's interesting because

833
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 3: it's it's I don't know, I she's such a compelling

834
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: figure and because the focus of the movie is so

835
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: on the triangle, we don't really get an idea of

836
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 3: I don't know like that. I think it comes through

837
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: in the performance who she is outside of this dynamic,

838
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 3: but we don't get to see very much of that.

839
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 3: Although I guess you could say the same for the guys,

840
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 3: but they have the pre existing relationship. I don't know. Yeah,

841
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 3: but it really struck me that that is the only

842
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 3: time we see her by herself.

843
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 2: It does make you wonder does she have any friends

844
00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: who are women, any tennis players, like athletes who are

845
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: women that she is buds with. Makes you wonder what

846
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 2: she's like as a mother. We see a tiny, tiny

847
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: glimpse of it when they're talking about Spider verse, but

848
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: aside from that, we see very very little of her

849
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: interactions with her daughter. We see a few interactions with

850
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: Tashi and her mother, who seems to be present in

851
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: the story because she is the caretaker of their daughter, right,

852
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, we really don't see I mean, this movie

853
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: is just so hyper hyper focused on tennis and this

854
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: love triangles, the threuple situation or what should be a thruple,

855
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: and it just doesn't really dedicate any time to anything else,

856
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, Like a lot

857
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,919
Speaker 2: of stories are very hyper focused on a specific thing.

858
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 2: But I feel like there was still room for giving

859
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: us a little bit more of a glimpse into like

860
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: what else, Like even if it just told us is

861
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 2: something something as simple as what was her major? Because

862
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: she even says like, I'm going to college because I

863
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 2: want to learn things and I want to take classes

864
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 2: and I don't want my only skill in life to

865
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: be hitting a ball with a racket. But then the

866
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 2: movie doesn't bother to tell us, well, what is she pursuing?

867
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 3: Well, I do think, so I'm so on the fence

868
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 3: about this, and I want to know what you think

869
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 3: about it, Princess, because it's like that's that is definitely true.

870
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 3: And then I also kept like second guessing myself because

871
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 3: there is a lot we learn in passing and through

872
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 3: the performance, where like that line I don't want to

873
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 3: just only know how to hit a ball with a

874
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 3: racket is called back later when she's at the Apple

875
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 3: Bees with Art and she says, well, it turns out

876
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 3: all I know how to do is hit a ball

877
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 3: with a racket. And so it's like she does eventually

878
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 3: kind of resign herself to the idea. And I don't

879
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 3: think like unhappily, but like she is like that tennis

880
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 3: is the thing she cares about. It's not like she's

881
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 3: being forced to remain there. She wants to be there. Yeah,

882
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 3: I don't know.

883
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 4: I think that there's almost like a classic film quality

884
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 4: to the movie in a sense where like the actor

885
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 4: is giving backstory through their performance of it all. Yeah,

886
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 4: And I think that is effective. And I think also

887
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 4: if you know anything about women's tennis, there's a lot

888
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 4: of just sort of like a lot of things happening

889
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 4: up beneath the surface because the reality is that like

890
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 4: you don't really see a lot of women tennis friendships

891
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 4: that are like of the same generation. Like there usually

892
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 4: is like the older person is kind of like the

893
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 4: mentor figure and then the younger person's like the up

894
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 4: and comer, and that's the dynamic.

895
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: Like I was thinking about how like Billy Jean King's

896
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 3: relationship with the Williams Sisters and like stuff like that. Yeah,

897
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: it's like more of like a mentor mentee kind of deal.

898
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, like in the Williams Sisters with like you know,

899
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,919
Speaker 4: Cocoa Golf, and like Maioi Osaka, it's like there isn't

900
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 4: a lot of like general like rivalry tends to be

901
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 4: the thing that gets the more attention than like and

902
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 4: ship heated rivalry, and so there's this aspect of in

903
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 4: a certain way, it makes sense that Tashi has no

904
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 4: female friends because everyone is her rival, because there is

905
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 4: no room to like, she doesn't have like a sister

906
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 4: to be her doubles partner, and she's not doing doubles,

907
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 4: so there is no space for her to be And

908
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 4: it's also just very white in general, and so there

909
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 4: isn't there's always going to be contrasting things happening, and

910
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 4: I think that is like the subtext of a lot

911
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 4: of Tashi's experience, and it's clear from reading interviews that

912
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 4: that is what they were bringing to that character. But

913
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 4: what I do think is always an interesting question and

914
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 4: not necessarily criticism, is like how much of that is

915
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 4: known can be absorbed by the audience that doesn't have

916
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 4: this background knowledge of this sport, right because.

917
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 2: The movie doesn't delve into any of that explicitly. I mean,

918
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 2: I learned so much about it from your video where

919
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: you talk about like the context of a character like

920
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 2: Tashi coming up in the era that she does as

921
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: a black woman tennis player in the wake of Serena

922
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 2: and Venus Williams before them Althea Gibson. But if you

923
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 2: don't already know that context, it's not like the movie

924
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: tells you any of it.

925
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 3: So right, and it's like and it's hard because it's like,

926
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, like I was having. It's part of

927
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 3: why this movie is so challenging because it's not like

928
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 3: the movie is giving you that context for men's tennis.

929
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 3: It's not giving you any context. It's just throwing you

930
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 3: in and being like, so you've seen a tennis match, YadA, YadA,

931
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 3: it's a metaphor for sex. But but yeah, I feel

932
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 3: like with Tashi specifically because potion Master did say specifically

933
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 3: that he he wrote, you know, like this was not

934
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: written for a white woman, and was later you know like, oh, well,

935
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: Zenda is interested, so now Tashi Duncan is a black woman.

936
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: Tashi Duncan was always written as a black woman. I'm

937
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 3: going to quote Postmaster Harry said, Tashi was always a

938
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 3: black woman. Patrick was always a well to do Jewish guy,

939
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 3: and Art was always a somewhat well to do wasp,

940
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 3: and so these characters were very clearly specified in the

941
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 3: original script, and I think that that does again like

942
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: come through. But like you're saying, princess, I think primarily

943
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 3: in the performance, there's a few lines of dialogue that

944
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: could give you some insight into it that I think

945
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 3: you shouted out in your video as well. Of when

946
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 3: they're about to have the big awesome kissing scene, the

947
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 3: two guys are talking about how they were boarding school roommates,

948
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 3: and they're like, did you go to boarding school trying

949
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 3: to be like just rich kids hanging out? And she

950
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 3: was like, well, no, we couldn't afford it, and even

951
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 3: if we could have, my parents wouldn't have wanted me

952
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 3: in that environment. There's one offline where she's talking about

953
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 3: the girl she was playing tennis against when we first

954
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 3: see her, who she says pretty offhand, she's like, oh,

955
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 3: she's you know, don't feel bad for her. She's a

956
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 3: racist bitch.

957
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: It's fine.

958
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: And like her character is.

959
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 2: Very both very specific and very left open to interpretation.

960
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 4: And I think that's interesting because it kind of reminds me,

961
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 4: in like an odd way of like Pacific rim and

962
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 4: how like when you have a woman of color in

963
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 4: a role that is not traditionally where we see women

964
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 4: of color. How then, does that change the way that

965
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 4: we operate in terms of like traditional feminist critical lens,

966
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 4: which while should be all encompassing, does tend to lean

967
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 4: towards white womanhood because I think if Tashi were a

968
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 4: white woman, we might be having different conversations about it,

969
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 4: but she isn't, and that's intentional, and that creates other

970
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 4: layers of conversation between everyone involved, which I just think

971
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 4: it is just inherently interesting, Like I think that it's

972
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 4: interesting to deal with the film that doesn't want to

973
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 4: tell you everything, but has so much in the background

974
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 4: of its intentionality that you can't help but want to

975
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 4: pull on more threads of it. So I don't think

976
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 4: if it is like a failing of Challengers, but I

977
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 4: do think it's something that I think got overlooked to

978
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 4: a certain degree, and that's why it got ignored when

979
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 4: it came to like a lot of awards stuff, because

980
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 4: it is a really rich film, but I feel like

981
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 4: people only saw the horniness and all of the kind

982
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 4: of like even within that holiness, any sort of like

983
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 4: commentary of like it's not as if Patrick is openly bisexual,

984
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 4: you know, like it's not as if he's flamboyant about

985
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 4: it and how that would impact his career and all

986
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 4: those other things are there, but they're not the main

987
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 4: focus in the way that the relationship.

988
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 3: Is absolutely yeah, like rewatching it with my hornygog off

989
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 3: and my context goggles on there. Again, it's just like

990
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 3: a passing moment with Patrick where he's on Tinder or

991
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: whatever app like swiping, and it's like people of all

992
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 3: genders are showing up, but he hesitates before swiping right

993
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 3: on a man. So it's like it just in a

994
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 3: gesture communicates like he is bisexual, but he still hasn't

995
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 3: like really come to terms with that. And then with Tashi,

996
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: one of the things that I really appreciated was left

997
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,479
Speaker 3: open ended, and I'm curious what you both think about

998
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 3: it is that she is a mom who seems like

999
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 3: a caring mom, but her role as a mother is

1000
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 3: not harped upon, and it seems like she is like

1001
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 3: not her child's primary caretaker. And I didn't feel that

1002
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 3: the movie was judging her for that. And I've very

1003
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 3: rarely seen, you know, a central woman who has kids

1004
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 3: that like motherhood isn't a main element of her character,

1005
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 3: and this movie does not really prioritize that for either

1006
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 3: of them. I mean, we see that, like clearly they

1007
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 3: love their child, you know, Lily. I don't know what

1008
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 3: kind of kid does Lily grow up to be growing

1009
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 3: up in hotels with her grandma. I don't know, but

1010
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 3: I appreciated that, you know, in a societal landscape that

1011
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 3: is very quick to judge mothers and rarely, if ever

1012
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 3: judges fathers, it seems like this is just a dynamic

1013
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 3: that is presented without judgment, and then you, as the viewer,

1014
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 3: can just make of it what you will.

1015
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 2: I think there are many examples of Tashi being presented

1016
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 2: in a way that we do not often see women

1017
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 2: represented on screen, in a way that the movie does

1018
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 2: not pass judgment on her, similar to what you're talking about, Jamie.

1019
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: A few examples are there's the scene where she and

1020
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: Art are at Stanford. She is dating Patrick, but Art

1021
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 2: is clearly in love with her. He's trying to break

1022
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 2: them up, and he says something like he's not in

1023
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: love with you, and she stops in her tracks and

1024
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 2: kind of slowly turns around and comes back, and we

1025
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 2: are conditioned to think that a woman being told that

1026
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 2: a man isn't in love with her will make her

1027
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: be like, oh my god, oh no, this is devastating.

1028
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 2: I can't be with someone who doesn't love me. But instead,

1029
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 2: she says, what makes you think I want someone to

1030
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: be in love with me? Did I ever say I

1031
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 2: was in love with him? And he's like, no, you didn't,

1032
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 2: And she's like, well, so why would I give a

1033
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: fuck if he loved me or not? And he says like,

1034
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 2: don't you think you deserve it?

1035
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 3: Like, which is he's being so I never like really

1036
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 3: listened to that line in contacts before. He's being so

1037
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 3: manipulative there, he's doing a thing that like male feminists

1038
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 3: do or they're like you deserve better, girl, and by

1039
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 3: better I mean me specifically.

1040
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 4: It's so manopulia, And that's the thing. I think. That's why,

1041
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 4: like there's a lot of bias between like people who

1042
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 4: like are and people who love Patrick. You know. Unfortunately

1043
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 4: the dirt bag with the huge penis Lend's out like

1044
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, like at least he's a dirt bag. He

1045
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 4: lives in his car, but he's funny and he's not

1046
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 4: and he's not trying to like soft launch a relationship

1047
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 4: while I'm with someone else through myn emotional manipulation. He

1048
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 4: just won the tennis match like an adult.

1049
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 3: I get it. I get it, like it's I don't know,

1050
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 3: you can't win right where it's like having because in

1051
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 3: Tash scenes with Patrick, it's like he is not on her.

1052
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 3: I mean, neither of these guys are on her level remotely,

1053
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 3: but Patrick, I think, is able to like scratch an

1054
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:55,959
Speaker 3: itch that she needs, which is someone who is going

1055
01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 3: to like challenge her and challenge her. Yeah, challenge her.

1056
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 2: Wow, challenge hers.

1057
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 3: Okay, we're actually recording this on International Women's Day and

1058
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 3: that was really impactful. Challenge her.

1059
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 4: Wow, I'm with, challenge her.

1060
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: I'm with.

1061
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 3: But he is like willing to have an argument with

1062
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 3: her in a way she seems to want, but not

1063
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 3: in a long term way. She does want a sub

1064
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 3: at home, but she does want to have a guy

1065
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 3: to argue with who has a huge dick and is

1066
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 3: a mess And you're like, yeah, which hard to have

1067
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:33,479
Speaker 3: all these things at once.

1068
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 2: It's a woman trying to have it all. But these

1069
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: are also all of the ways in which we almost

1070
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: never see women represented on screen. The fact that she

1071
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 2: is way better at the sport that she plays than

1072
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: the men around her, that she's like the best of everyone,

1073
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 2: including all the men. The fact that she is kind

1074
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 2: of using men to like live vicariously through them so

1075
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 2: that she can still do tennis things. And I'm not

1076
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 2: praising that as a good quality to have. Obviously you

1077
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 2: should not use people. But my point is she has flaws,

1078
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 2: she has layers. She can be messy, she can be calculating,

1079
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 2: and we usually do not get to see a woman

1080
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 2: portrayed in these types of ways in movies because normally

1081
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: we see women who are either like perfect little angels

1082
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: who would never make a mistake or do anything wrong,

1083
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 2: or women who are given so little characterization that you

1084
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 2: don't even know what choices they would make. So even

1085
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: though Tashi is like not behaving well a lot of

1086
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 2: the time, it's more interesting than the like nothing characters

1087
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 2: we so often see with women in movies. So there's that.

1088
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 2: There's the fact that she loves tennis more than she

1089
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 2: will ever love any man, and like the men around

1090
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: her do not know what to do with that exactly.

1091
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 2: The fact that again, and I'm gonna keep harping on this,

1092
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: like dom sub dynamic thing. It's not how we traditionally

1093
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 2: think of dom sub dynamics in like the kink sphere,

1094
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 2: but she is in her relationship with Art, the dominant

1095
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 2: figure who is always telling him what to do, how

1096
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 2: to play tennis, which tournaments he's gonna compete in. He

1097
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: never pushes back, he just says, whatever you want, babe.

1098
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 2: Also that scene, so there's a scene at the very

1099
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: beginning where she's like, you're humiliating yourself. You need to

1100
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 2: get your shit together, Like, let's have you do something

1101
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: that you can win so that you can stop being

1102
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 2: such a loser.

1103
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 4: Yea.

1104
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 2: And that scene ends with her han soloing him where

1105
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 2: he's like, I love you and she's like, I know, and.

1106
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 3: He kind of loves that though he kind of love that.

1107
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 4: If it was easy, he wouldn't be there. And I

1108
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 4: think that's sort of like what's interesting about their dynamic.

1109
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 4: And I also love like to what you're saying, Caitlin,

1110
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 4: I definitely feel like she resents the fact that, like,

1111
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:17,919
Speaker 4: I literally physically can't play this game anymore, and if

1112
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 4: I could, I would, but I can't, and like and

1113
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 4: now you're here crying about Oh, I think I want

1114
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 4: to retire early I didn't get a chance to retire early.

1115
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 4: You know, I didn't get a chance to even go

1116
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 4: as far as I knew I was capable of. And

1117
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 4: so I think part of why she finds both of

1118
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 4: them frustrating is like, these are two guys who cannot

1119
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 4: use their privilege to do the thing that she could

1120
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 4: do well with less of it. Yeah, it's like it's

1121
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 4: like it's like it's exhausting. It's like, you guys have

1122
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 4: money and ability and the physicality, and yet you just.

1123
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 2: Won't right and your men and you're white.

1124
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 3: Exactly, and they're both from like well off families, and like,

1125
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 3: I mean that is something that again like comes up

1126
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 3: between Tashi and Art very early that I am able

1127
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 3: to see how that is like dysfunctional for both of them,

1128
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 3: where she is putting a lot of pressure on him

1129
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,439
Speaker 3: to do something he doesn't want to do anymore. He

1130
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 3: says later, like bluntly, like I'm I know that I'm

1131
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 3: playing for both of us. But there's a moment where

1132
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 3: Tash is so understandably frustrated and she's like, I would

1133
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 3: have killed for a recovery like yours, like, and she

1134
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 3: is to some extent projecting onto him of like you recovered,

1135
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 3: so you have to keep going. And it's I don't know,

1136
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 3: like I if there was one thing I wish I

1137
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 3: we had more of in this movie is like Tashi

1138
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 3: is having to fight against so much. She's not just

1139
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 3: fighting against massage noir that exists within this sport, She's

1140
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 3: also fighting against her own body and like the frustration

1141
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 3: that comes with that, and how that clearly that is

1142
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 3: such a big turning point in her life, that and

1143
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 3: and and in that same opening sequence again, it's like

1144
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 3: all these like little things that they add in that

1145
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 3: could be a full movie, but it's just like a

1146
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 3: shot in Challengers where she is it kind of was

1147
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 3: like giving Victoria and David Beckham to me where there's

1148
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 3: like that we're work what but that we're like that

1149
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 3: big like ad, that billboard ad that she's editing to

1150
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 3: reflect that she is a part of it. So she

1151
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 3: even though it is like not a central focus, you

1152
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 3: can tell that the world is trying to frame her

1153
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 3: as someone's wife and not Tashi Duncan, and she is

1154
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 3: like having to quietly or loudly push back against that.

1155
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 2: And I don't know, there's just like so.

1156
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 3: Many little things that come through and like Zendia should

1157
01:07:55,560 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 3: have been nominated for everything for this, but no one

1158
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 3: gets nominated for erotic thrillers, so it didn't happen. But

1159
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 3: it just like she's doing so much and the script

1160
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 3: is doing so much too of just like these little

1161
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 3: moments that you're like, of course she is like a

1162
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 3: ticking time bomb. It's all so fucking frustrating.

1163
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 4: No, And I definitely feel like I think it's interesting

1164
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 4: because like when did Baby Girl and like all those

1165
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 4: kind of movies start coming out, because I feel like

1166
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 4: now we're in this place.

1167
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 3: Where everyone around the same time, right.

1168
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 2: Around the same time, right, yeah, late twenty twenty four

1169
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,520
Speaker 2: was when Baby Girl came out, I think, yeah.

1170
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 4: And I feel like we're just getting into this place

1171
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 4: with the erotic thriller but also this ability to understand

1172
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 4: eroticism and affection, and I think where like it's I

1173
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 4: don't think it's a lazy comparison to be like, you know,

1174
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 4: Heated Rivalry and Challengers like exists in a similar timeline,

1175
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 4: and I think the Challengers came out a little bit

1176
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 4: closer to Hated Rivalry. People might appreciate it a little

1177
01:08:55,200 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 4: bit more because of how like sexually earnested. It is, like,

1178
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 4: I think what's really sweet about Art. I think there's

1179
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 4: a sweetness to Art and Patrick's relationship that makes it

1180
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 4: also really captivating. Like I love Tashi in between both

1181
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 4: of them. But I also think like that that three

1182
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:18,840
Speaker 4: way kiss is so compelling because it's like it goes

1183
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 4: on for a while. It's not like it's not like

1184
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 4: they see it happen. They're like, oh that's good. They're

1185
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 4: like they're going forward, they lean into it, they're going

1186
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,719
Speaker 4: into it, and it's just like the potential.

1187
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 2: And they have to know that they are kissing each

1188
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 2: other and that Tashi is not involved.

1189
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I also had canon. I think they're lying in

1190
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 3: that earlier in the scene where they're like they you know,

1191
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 3: it's convenient to have the disgusting Brothers jerk off story

1192
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 3: to support it, but I'm like, they've kissed before. That

1193
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 3: wasn't the first kiss I was looking at over there.

1194
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 3: It was phenomenal these boys and they're basically sort of

1195
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 3: kissing at the end, and Tashi is sort of like whatever,

1196
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 3: as long as because you're playing good tennis while doing

1197
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 3: whatever you're doing, I'm not bothered by it.

1198
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 2: Again, they they should just be in a thrupple. I

1199
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 2: mean you mentioned this in your video, Princess, about how

1200
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 2: all of these characters like should have read the Ethical

1201
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 2: Slut and didn't. But like if they just embraced the

1202
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 2: fact that Tashi wants to have sex with both of them,

1203
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 2: because that's how she has sex with Tennis. Art and

1204
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 2: Patrick want to kiss each other and maybe more because

1205
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 2: there's all these moments of homo eroticism throughout the movie.

1206
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 2: There's a part where like Patrick puts his hand on

1207
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 2: Art's knee.

1208
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 3: While it's awesome, there is.

1209
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 2: There's like the mutual stretching that they do where they're

1210
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 2: embracing each other. There's the truro eating scene where they're

1211
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: sharing churros and everything they eat is phallic. Yeah, just

1212
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 2: like all all these moments of physical closeness between them.

1213
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 3: Well, and it's also not a mistake that like their

1214
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 3: big confrontation at the Challenger is where they're both completely

1215
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:15,520
Speaker 3: naked and a sauna, Like the movie is not subtle.

1216
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 4: And apply a towel over it. It's like, we know

1217
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 4: you guys are doing.

1218
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 2: Patrick comes in dick out, He's like, you know what

1219
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:24,680
Speaker 2: this is?

1220
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 3: So he's like, so about how I'm fucking your wife, Like,

1221
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 3: oh my god, they're such babies. I think that that

1222
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 3: is like, I think all three of them kind of

1223
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 3: do treat these relationships like a game, but the way

1224
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 3: that they do is so specific to who the character is,

1225
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 3: where Patrick is still kind of being a teenager, Like

1226
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 3: it's I don't know these three, these three who knows

1227
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 3: what the hell is going on with them? But I

1228
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 3: but I love that.

1229
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 2: I love to watch it.

1230
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 3: I love whatever the hell's going on here.

1231
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 4: I wish I could just trade like Aporia season three,

1232
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 4: Let's just do Challengers season one, Let's just go right there.

1233
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 3: Oh it would be so good. Another I mean, just

1234
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 3: speaking to it is all these like little moments, but

1235
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 3: how it does seem like Patrick in art genuinely in

1236
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 3: different ways want Tashi's validation. Another moment that I picked

1237
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 3: up on in this most recent watch was after she

1238
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 3: and Patrick have sex in his car the night before

1239
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 3: the Challenger or like the finals, he starts getting very

1240
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 3: like postcoital affectionate with her, and he's like, I miss

1241
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 3: watching you. Do you play tennis? You're so beautiful? And

1242
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 3: she's like, so anyways, tennis, Like, let's talk about my

1243
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 3: true love speaking of what I care about, Like she

1244
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 3: just doesn't care. And I love their confrontation when she

1245
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 3: with her bob and her sweater. It's just so great

1246
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 3: where she says, to his face, you look like shit.

1247
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 3: She she calls him out directly for cosplaying as a

1248
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 3: poor person. You know, she says, like, your dreams are shit,

1249
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 3: your garbage, and he, you know, Patrick can take shit

1250
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:17,879
Speaker 3: like that in stride, which I think is appealing to Tashi.

1251
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 3: He seems to kind of get off on being called

1252
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 3: a piece of shit. A lot of rich guys are

1253
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 3: like that. But he he like gives it back to

1254
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 3: her to say way they they did when they were

1255
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 3: in a relationship together, and it's like, well you don't

1256
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 3: you don't love your husband and he just wants to

1257
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 3: eat a cheeseburger and take a nap and you hate

1258
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 3: him for that, and she's like, well so what shrug.

1259
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,920
Speaker 2: I know, like her dynamic with Patrick is that he's

1260
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 2: a brat and she's like his brat tamer. And then

1261
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 2: with Art it's he's a simp and she's just like, yeah,

1262
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 2: do whatever I say.

1263
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 3: You can't.

1264
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:56,960
Speaker 4: I mean, it just so toxic. How it's just like

1265
01:13:57,360 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 4: he's he's like, you don't love your husband, and she's like, well,

1266
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 4: you should kill yourself. And I was just like, WHOA,

1267
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 4: legendary really elated. She took it. She took it to hell.

1268
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 4: He's like when they go low, I'm going to the

1269
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 4: Winter Earth. That's like, you know, if you improve your game,

1270
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 4: be in the ground. I was like, whoa.

1271
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 2: It was wild.

1272
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,679
Speaker 3: But she and then on the other end, like another

1273
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 3: moment with Art that I kind of forgot about that

1274
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh, these three are so broken.

1275
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 3: Where she leaves to cheat on him but also sort

1276
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:36,559
Speaker 3: of be his manager in a way in a like

1277
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 3: she's sort of at works, sort of not when she's

1278
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 3: having sex with Josha Connor, but she comes back and

1279
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 3: he's just like sleeping next to their daughter, and that

1280
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 3: you don't know, that really got me this time. I'm like, oh,

1281
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 3: he just needs to feel loved.

1282
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 4: He does.

1283
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 2: He just wants to be held tenderly until he falls asleep.

1284
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,960
Speaker 3: And she does that. She like pats him on the

1285
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 3: back for three minutes and she's like, so I have

1286
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 3: to go. How secks with your roommate.

1287
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:06,640
Speaker 2: She's like, you're not a pile of tennis balls. So

1288
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 2: I'm not really interested in holding you very much exactly.

1289
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing I wanted to touch on that I

1290
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 3: do think that we do have because this movie is

1291
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 3: so hyper focused on the love triangle, and I do

1292
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 3: think we this is the love triangle. We're used to

1293
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 3: saying two men and a woman, not two women and

1294
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 3: a man. But because this happens in the world of tennis,

1295
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 3: I just wanted to touch on a Dazed article that

1296
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 3: came out around the release of this movie by Helena

1297
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 3: Jabrill that is specifically about women who are athletes and

1298
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:45,360
Speaker 3: their bodies. The name of the piece as Challengers missed

1299
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 3: an opportunity to spotlight female athletes bodies, so I just

1300
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:50,880
Speaker 3: wanted to share it a little bit from that. It

1301
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 3: is not a criticism of Zendeia. I think it's more

1302
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 3: criticism of the fact that because there is really just

1303
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,640
Speaker 3: one woman athlete we get to see and know in

1304
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 3: this movie, we lose an opportunity to explore a very

1305
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 3: common criticism of women in sports, and also specifically Black

1306
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 3: women in sports, which is the hyperfixation on their bodies historically.

1307
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 3: So to share a piece of that. While watching Challengers,

1308
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 3: I wondered why Tashi's body didn't resemble other young tennis

1309
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 3: stars we know from real life, from Cocoa Goff and

1310
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 3: Naomi Osaka to the young Serena and Venus Williams, all

1311
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 3: women who help shape the character of Tashi. These sportswomen

1312
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:34,200
Speaker 3: have a more muscular and broader physique than Tashi. Challenging

1313
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 3: idealized notions about what women should look like, even those

1314
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 3: in Daa's portrayal of Tashi is impressive. Challengers would have

1315
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 3: been more interesting visually and textually if the object of

1316
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 3: Art and Patrick's desires was a woman who stood in

1317
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 3: opposition to idealize femininity rather than conforms to it, as

1318
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 3: so many women in sport do. From the racist redicule

1319
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 3: that was always leveled against Serena Williams because of her

1320
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 3: dark skin and muscular body, to the questioning of Olympic

1321
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 3: runner casters Men's gender because of all the high levels

1322
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 3: of testosterone in her body, all women, but especially black

1323
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 3: women athletes, have constantly been bullied and seen as less

1324
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 3: desirable when their bodies and behavior go against traditional ideas

1325
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 3: of femininity. Challengers had the opportunity to confront our normative

1326
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 3: understanding of who and what is desirable in the same way.

1327
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:21,599
Speaker 3: The film presents an alternative and queer view of how

1328
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 3: relationships can work. So it is like in a movie

1329
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:31,000
Speaker 3: that has three characters, it's not even like necessarily a criticism,

1330
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 3: but I did think it was like an interesting perspective

1331
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:39,520
Speaker 3: to offer because women are constantly criticized for being too muscular.

1332
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 3: And that's where Love Lies Bleeding comes in, where a

1333
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,719
Speaker 3: movie that came out the same year features a queer

1334
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 3: relationship with Kristen Stewart and Katie O'Brien, and Katie O'Brien

1335
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 3: is a you know, like a weightlifter who looks like

1336
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 3: a weightlifter, a bodybuilder. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I don't know.

1337
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 3: I thought it was an Seeing Peace and we.

1338
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 2: Got to cover that movie.

1339
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I love that movie. That was also something

1340
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 4: I thought about in the back of my mind because

1341
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:11,920
Speaker 4: I'm like, I get what they picked Zendaya because that

1342
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 4: is like a star. And also Zindaa is not the

1343
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 4: kind of actor who you necessarily can gain like a

1344
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 4: whole amount of muscle, even though I know she did

1345
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:26,920
Speaker 4: gain some for this movie, and so it's one of

1346
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 4: those things. It's like it's like one of those caveas

1347
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 4: where like I wish they had more background people that

1348
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 4: did reflect that body type.

1349
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 3: You know.

1350
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 4: I think that that would have been like a nice

1351
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:37,639
Speaker 4: balance to have more people or like get Cocoa Golf

1352
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:39,559
Speaker 4: for a cameo or something like that.

1353
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 3: Totally, totally, yeah, yeah, Like I do think there was

1354
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 3: room for in a movie that is full of small

1355
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 3: moments that really stick with you, small moments with another

1356
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 3: woman athlete who doesn't look necessarily like Zendia or like

1357
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 3: a Hollywood actor could have been cool.

1358
01:18:58,880 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1359
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the closest thing we get is that

1360
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 2: scene where Tashi is playing at Stanford in a match

1361
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,719
Speaker 2: with I think a student from Pepperdine or something like that,

1362
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 2: and the other student, who I believe is a white woman,

1363
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:21,000
Speaker 2: is like laboriously running back and forth and Tashi, by contrast,

1364
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:26,000
Speaker 2: is pretty stationary, implying that like this is effortless for Tashi.

1365
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 2: She is like she is just crushing this woman and

1366
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 2: the other woman is like having to work so much harder.

1367
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 2: But that's kind of the only time we really see

1368
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 2: another woman play tennis in the movie, and it's a

1369
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,720
Speaker 2: thin white woman, so it's again not doing anything to

1370
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,000
Speaker 2: challenger what we're talking about.

1371
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 3: That said, it is cool and worth mentioning that Zendia

1372
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:57,439
Speaker 3: is a top line producer on this movie. I love

1373
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 3: when women are producing their own li movies and have

1374
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 3: a say in how they are portrayed. I feel like

1375
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:08,559
Speaker 3: you can really feel that in this movie because we

1376
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:12,680
Speaker 3: like referenced this earlier. There is a lot and I

1377
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 3: guess I can't put my finger on exactly why I'm

1378
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 3: not bothered by this, but like there is a lot

1379
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 3: of male gaze in this movie, but like not in

1380
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 3: the way that we're used to seeing it. It's maybe

1381
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:27,400
Speaker 3: it's because it's like the simping male gaze and not

1382
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 3: be like violent male gaze. I don't know what it is,

1383
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 3: but because we do see things from Zendea's perspective as well,

1384
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:37,919
Speaker 3: like I mean, most iconically the shot of her watching

1385
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,559
Speaker 3: the boys making out, but like I don't know, yeah,

1386
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 3: the perspectives, like the camera work in this is so

1387
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 3: good and like horny and weird and thoughtful and a

1388
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 3: bunch of other words as well.

1389
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is the balancing of the equal

1390
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 4: opportunity and also that Zendeia is a star that has

1391
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:02,800
Speaker 4: the power to say no to nudity, like if she

1392
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,680
Speaker 4: did not want to have that, I don't because she's

1393
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:08,320
Speaker 4: one of the few juds who's never been naked in Euphoria,

1394
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 4: So I think that it kind of makes you feel

1395
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,640
Speaker 4: like she has power in it, kind of like with

1396
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 4: poor Things, where it's like, is it a little gazy

1397
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 4: at times? For sure? But because we know Zendia has

1398
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:24,320
Speaker 4: power in the industry, we can at least know that

1399
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 4: if she felt uncomfortable, that she is someone who is

1400
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 4: empowered to be like no, thank you totally.

1401
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 3: And yeah, then the fact that like the four producers

1402
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 3: credited on this movie are three women, Amy Pascal, Zendia,

1403
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 3: Rachel O'Connor, and a queer man Luca Guadnino. Like it,

1404
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 3: I don't know, you just do get the feeling that

1405
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 3: you are in good hands because the male gaze, I

1406
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 3: don't know. I think we've been so conditioned to see

1407
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:56,919
Speaker 3: it to say that seeing male gaze shots is inherently

1408
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 3: a bad thing, because it more often than not has

1409
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:04,200
Speaker 3: ben in movies. But this is I think an outlier,

1410
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 3: and that like it is, you know, not completely useless

1411
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 3: to see things from a male character's perspective. It's just

1412
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 3: nice to not feel attacked by it.

1413
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and not everyone is getting a little bit of

1414
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 4: it because it's like we see, we see like a

1415
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 4: little hint of penin. We're never seeing anything more from

1416
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,480
Speaker 4: her that we don't see from another.

1417
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:29,599
Speaker 2: Man, right, I mean, I would argue that there are

1418
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 2: shots of the two men that are more sexualized than

1419
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:39,960
Speaker 2: anything that we see of Tashi, especially in the final

1420
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 2: sequence when Patrick and Art are getting closer and closer together,

1421
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:48,480
Speaker 2: they're dripping sweat. They're like, we get kind of isolated

1422
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:53,200
Speaker 2: shots of like their thighs and their arms and shoulders

1423
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 2: and the muscles just pulsating and glistening, And to me,

1424
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 2: that feels way more sexualized than anything that we see

1425
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 2: of Tashi's body.

1426
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:06,599
Speaker 3: And I think you could still argue that that is

1427
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 3: a male gaze because I think, to me, that's them

1428
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 3: looking at each other. That's not Tash. True, Tashi is

1429
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:15,080
Speaker 3: like thinking about tennis balls.

1430
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:19,280
Speaker 2: Like she's like finally, yeah, so true.

1431
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:22,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's what makes the whole movie so refreshing,

1432
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:25,719
Speaker 4: and what makes it truly erotic is that it's erotic

1433
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 4: for everyone. If it's only erotic for like one participant,

1434
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,480
Speaker 4: Like again, all those tips need to touch.

1435
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,679
Speaker 3: Yes, that's all tips of the triangle. It's like, Wow,

1436
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 3: what a bar.

1437
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:38,840
Speaker 2: They need to fold in on each other and touch exactly.

1438
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:42,800
Speaker 2: Can we talk about the marketing of this movie, which

1439
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:45,959
Speaker 2: is also something that you bring up in your video essay, Princess,

1440
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,720
Speaker 2: but the fact that there were there was at least

1441
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 2: one trailer that positioned Tashi as the femme fatale, the villain,

1442
01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 2: the vindictive home wrecker, and and Nelly Furtado's man Eater

1443
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,640
Speaker 2: is playing and what a bop of a song. But

1444
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 2: then you watch the movie and you realize, oh, that's

1445
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 2: not what's happening. Maybe there are traces of it kind of,

1446
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 2: but she's a far more complicated character than that. And

1447
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:24,120
Speaker 2: I think it's just that with marketing for movies, they

1448
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 2: have to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible,

1449
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 2: and this is kind of a hard movie to market,

1450
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:32,360
Speaker 2: if we're being honest. So they have to figure out, Okay,

1451
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:34,640
Speaker 2: what's the hook. How are we going to sell this

1452
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:39,040
Speaker 2: because what we have in Tashi is simply a confident

1453
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:44,200
Speaker 2: and dominant woman. But that's scary to people. Absolutely, people

1454
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 2: don't want to watch a movie about that. So how

1455
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:48,799
Speaker 2: do we take the footage we have from the movie

1456
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 2: and put a spin on it so that it's more

1457
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:56,000
Speaker 2: sellable and more marketable. Oh, we'll make her a vindictive,

1458
01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:57,759
Speaker 2: manipulative woman.

1459
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:00,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's interesting. Like both times, the first

1460
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 4: time I watched a movie, I thought that she would

1461
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 4: be in it more because of how heavily she is

1462
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:09,760
Speaker 4: like the face of this movie. Yeah, and I think

1463
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:13,120
Speaker 4: it's surprising how much it is about the boys because

1464
01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 4: of that, Which is not to say that she's not

1465
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:17,080
Speaker 4: an important character, Like you don't have to be in

1466
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 4: every single shot to be important, because she's definitely like

1467
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 4: haunting the narrative, so to speak. But it definitely like

1468
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 4: surprised me that, like they're the ones who chase after her,

1469
01:25:28,120 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 4: like in a lot of the sequences, like she's responding

1470
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 4: to like like you know, they're serving the ball and

1471
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:35,880
Speaker 4: she's just serving it back at them, but at her

1472
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 4: own speed. And I think it sometimes and I think

1473
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:44,200
Speaker 4: also because of the way that you know, fandoms will

1474
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:49,360
Speaker 4: make the female character the bad guy inherently, it's possible

1475
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:53,759
Speaker 4: to really flatten all of Tashi's nuance in the narrative

1476
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:55,600
Speaker 4: by just being like, well, she's in the way of

1477
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 4: these two minutes, Like, no, those two men are in

1478
01:25:58,560 --> 01:25:59,720
Speaker 4: the way of themselves.

1479
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone is like in the way, and sometimes the

1480
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 3: world is in the way.

1481
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:06,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's society.

1482
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:08,480
Speaker 2: They live in a society.

1483
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 4: They live in a society, and I think, like that

1484
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:14,280
Speaker 4: is what's interesting about Like, yeah, it's the man eater.

1485
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 4: Well sn M is a little bit later, but the

1486
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:19,920
Speaker 4: man eater thing is definitely very funny because I don't

1487
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 4: think she's a man eater. I just think that she's

1488
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:25,920
Speaker 4: like hot and confident and they're overwhelmed by it.

1489
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 3: Right, It's like I don't I mean, we are led

1490
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:30,920
Speaker 3: to believe that she, in her adult life has had

1491
01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:33,559
Speaker 3: sex with two people, and it's the two guys in

1492
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:37,639
Speaker 3: this movie. Right, I don't think she's a man.

1493
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 2: Eater necessarily, And if she is a man eater, she

1494
01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:42,479
Speaker 2: is eating a man who wants to be eaten.

1495
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's on a nye and it's very little carb. Yeah,

1496
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 4: because it's like it's it's it's just these two boys.

1497
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1498
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 3: I think another great Tashi and Art moment where you're

1499
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 3: just like, oh god, Art Art, Art buddy, where he's

1500
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,320
Speaker 3: like he's trying to take a stand and I and

1501
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 3: I mean trying. He's trying to take a stand and

1502
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:07,040
Speaker 3: he's like, I'm quitting tennis. I'm sleepy. I don't like

1503
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 3: it anymore. And then well and then she's like okay, fine,

1504
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:13,640
Speaker 3: and then he's he like tries to walk away from

1505
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:14,200
Speaker 3: the conversation.

1506
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 2: He's like, but what do you think?

1507
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:16,320
Speaker 3: Is it okay?

1508
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:17,680
Speaker 2: Are you mad? Do you love me?

1509
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:22,000
Speaker 3: And like he ough, yeah, buddy, I do think And

1510
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:24,080
Speaker 3: it's like in that way, I am kind of glad

1511
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 3: that again it feels like equal across the three of

1512
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:32,600
Speaker 3: their backgrounds. We know enough to know, you know, at

1513
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:34,720
Speaker 3: least have an idea of why they are reacting to

1514
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 3: each other the way that they are, but we don't

1515
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:41,640
Speaker 3: get a deep look into like what are their relationships

1516
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:43,600
Speaker 3: with their parents? What I mean, I think we know

1517
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:46,759
Speaker 3: the most about Tashi because we see a fair amount

1518
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:49,000
Speaker 3: of her mom, and it's.

1519
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 2: Very loving and care mutually respectful.

1520
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:55,680
Speaker 3: It seems like a good relationship. But but that like

1521
01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 3: I don't know, like you can kind of like project

1522
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 3: onto these three characters in any sort of way because

1523
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 3: you're not given too much information about them. And I

1524
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:08,800
Speaker 3: think that that is something that is maybe a like

1525
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:14,080
Speaker 3: peak TV over correction that sometimes and I think that

1526
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 3: like I've been guilty of this of like wanting to

1527
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 3: know more than a movie is telling me, because I

1528
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 3: think we're so used to having things over explained to

1529
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,240
Speaker 3: us now in a lot of movies where there could

1530
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 3: be an entire side movie about one character you saw

1531
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 3: for one second and one movie ten years ago, and

1532
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:36,839
Speaker 3: you know, like, this movie is not over explaining itself

1533
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:39,160
Speaker 3: to you in a way that I think it helps

1534
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:41,559
Speaker 3: and like is makes it better?

1535
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:45,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, does anyone have anything else they want to

1536
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:46,480
Speaker 2: talk about?

1537
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 4: I just I just love the soundtrack as well. I

1538
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 4: think that's the one last thing I want to say

1539
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 4: is it's like just like the way it goes like

1540
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 4: like every time like the sound stops and then picks

1541
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 4: up again, it's like electrifying. It's like, yeah, I just

1542
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:04,440
Speaker 4: the fact that just didn't get nominated for Best Score blasphemy,

1543
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 4: Like that is just like a crime, a literal crime,

1544
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 4: Like what were you guys doing? Were you on drugs

1545
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 4: at the time? Please share with the clouds. So that's

1546
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:14,800
Speaker 4: the one thing I will say. I'm like, I have

1547
01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 4: no idea how they could have ignored that aspect of

1548
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:22,800
Speaker 4: anything about this film. It's so bizarre. Yeah.

1549
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 3: How many Yeah, how many soundtracks end up on like

1550
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 3: people's regular rotation, and the Challenger soundtrack has definitely remained

1551
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:33,720
Speaker 3: in mind, and I think I'm very much not alone.

1552
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:37,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's to me. It's like this year

1553
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 4: the soundtrack that I'm like a gog didn't get any

1554
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:42,559
Speaker 4: nominations is like a testament of Anilee and a couple

1555
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:46,640
Speaker 4: of years ago. It's so God, I am like the

1556
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:50,760
Speaker 4: biggest evangelical of that movie. I'm like, mother, Anne is so,

1557
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:54,559
Speaker 4: but I but I it has an amazing soundtrack, and

1558
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 4: I think so does Challengers. I'm like, these are like

1559
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,360
Speaker 4: such great, great stories.

1560
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:01,960
Speaker 2: We should start our own awards.

1561
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 4: Exactly, we'll get it right.

1562
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously.

1563
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 3: Bechtel's test wise, this does pass a couple times.

1564
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:13,480
Speaker 2: Obviously.

1565
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:16,839
Speaker 3: There is one woman who is central to the narrative,

1566
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:19,120
Speaker 3: but she talks to her daughter. She talks to her mom.

1567
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:21,520
Speaker 2: She talks to her daughter about into the Spider Verse.

1568
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:26,839
Speaker 3: A fun little ZiT nod to Zendia's career, also Spider

1569
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 3: Man background.

1570
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:30,879
Speaker 4: Her husband does Spider things.

1571
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 3: I guess I've heard of her husband. He does spider things, right,

1572
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:38,759
Speaker 3: he seems nice.

1573
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:45,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, there's that line in this movie where Patrick

1574
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 2: is like, I'm not some lapdog who's gonna sit around

1575
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,960
Speaker 2: and let you punish me. I'm not Art, But maybe

1576
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 2: you need someone like that. Maybe you want someone who's

1577
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:58,479
Speaker 2: gonna be mister Tashi Duncan. And that it seems like

1578
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:00,559
Speaker 2: that is exactly what how she wants.

1579
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is actually exactly what she wants. And I know,

1580
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:04,920
Speaker 3: just the man for the job.

1581
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:09,639
Speaker 2: And she is Zendia and she has mister Zendia, and

1582
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 2: so I think that's how she lives her regular life too.

1583
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:15,640
Speaker 3: I don't thank God, who knows. We don't know, and

1584
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:17,439
Speaker 3: it's none of our business. And I love that.

1585
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:20,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, she talks to her daughter, she talks

1586
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 2: to her mother, talks to her mum, mostly about childcare stuff.

1587
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:30,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, these these interactions past the Bechdel test.

1588
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 3: There is one other woman in the movie that we

1589
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 3: haven't chatted out but just deserved better. And that's Helen,

1590
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:41,639
Speaker 3: the woman who Art goes out a date with who

1591
01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:45,400
Speaker 3: for Hella, who is not treated well. And I just

1592
01:31:45,439 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 3: wanted to shout her out as a woman who I

1593
01:31:50,479 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 3: hope wherever she is in this fictional world, I hope

1594
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 3: she is well, and I hope she found someone who

1595
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:58,560
Speaker 3: could listen to her finish a sentence.

1596
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:02,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, and doesn't surprise kiss her, which like, Okay, Patrick

1597
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:06,120
Speaker 2: is a complete dirt bag. He probably is the type

1598
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 2: of man who would surprise kiss a woman. But also

1599
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know we did did we need

1600
01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:12,760
Speaker 2: to see that in the movie. Couldn't we have seen

1601
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 2: him asking for consent? He can still be a dirt

1602
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:16,680
Speaker 2: bag about it, but.

1603
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:18,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like that is almost like used as

1604
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:20,800
Speaker 3: a tool to contrast him in Art in a way

1605
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 3: that almost wasn't necessary because Art is like mister consent.

1606
01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:27,760
Speaker 3: He like in the Appleby's Parking Lite, He's like, so

1607
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 3: I really want to kiss you, but I'm afraid that

1608
01:32:30,200 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 3: you have a feeling, and you're like he is like

1609
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 3: mister consent. That's kind of he's he's he's hot for consent. Yeah,

1610
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:40,920
Speaker 3: his whole and that is like again just like sorry

1611
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,599
Speaker 3: to like start another converence, but like it's just so

1612
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 3: thoughtfully like written and performed, where that is always who

1613
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:51,160
Speaker 3: Art is, like from the moment he meets Tashi, he's

1614
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:53,960
Speaker 3: always the one that's like, I really admire.

1615
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:54,599
Speaker 2: Your game, Tashi.

1616
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:57,519
Speaker 3: You're very you're a very tough like he even says

1617
01:32:57,520 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 3: to Patrick when Tashi's not even there. He's like, come on, Patrick,

1618
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 3: she's a very remarkable young woman, and you're right now Art.

1619
01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 3: I kind of love him.

1620
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:09,400
Speaker 4: It's one of those things where like I hate it,

1621
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:11,680
Speaker 4: but I was like, that makes me so dry that

1622
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 4: he just said that, like, not ironically, like I was

1623
01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:16,080
Speaker 4: just like, no, he.

1624
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:18,559
Speaker 3: Was alone with his boy and said, she is a

1625
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 3: remarkable young woman. And I'm like, I go, you gotta

1626
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 3: love art. You gotta love art.

1627
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:26,360
Speaker 4: At least I didn't call her articulate. That would have

1628
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 4: really fucked me up.

1629
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:36,679
Speaker 2: But yeah, what about our nipple scale? Though our scale

1630
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:39,719
Speaker 2: where we rate the movie based on examining it through

1631
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:45,799
Speaker 2: an intersectional feminist lens zero to five nipples. I think

1632
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:53,920
Speaker 2: because this is a movie that showcases a woman who

1633
01:33:55,400 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 2: is I think, very complicated, very interesting, who is allowed

1634
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:06,440
Speaker 2: to be confident and dominant, and sure does she mistreat

1635
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:10,280
Speaker 2: some people along the way. Yeah, I'm not saying that

1636
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 2: she's necessarily like someone to aspire to be, but also

1637
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 2: I do aspire to achieve the level of dominance that

1638
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:24,480
Speaker 2: she has over men. I think I kind of struggled

1639
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,559
Speaker 2: with the Tashi character the first time I saw the

1640
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:28,960
Speaker 2: movie but when I rewatched it and sort of like

1641
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 2: framed her character through that lens, I was like, wait

1642
01:34:35,120 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 2: a minute, she's she's cooking, she's onto something. I think

1643
01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 2: I want to give this movie like I don't know,

1644
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:48,320
Speaker 2: I don't know. Is it three nipples? Is it four nipples?

1645
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,360
Speaker 2: Is it less? Is it more? This is a this

1646
01:34:51,439 --> 01:34:53,840
Speaker 2: is a challenging one to rate.

1647
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:56,680
Speaker 4: I'm going for I'm going for too.

1648
01:34:57,040 --> 01:34:58,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, me too.

1649
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:02,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think I think I would give it four nipples.

1650
01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 4: And I'm only taking a nipple off because she's the

1651
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:07,719
Speaker 4: only woman of color and I think that, like besides

1652
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 4: her own child, and I would have just liked for

1653
01:35:11,360 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 4: her to have like another relationship to like one other

1654
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:16,519
Speaker 4: person of color that's not related to her.

1655
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:17,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1656
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:19,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, So because of that, it gets four from an

1657
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,360
Speaker 4: intersectional lens. But I do think, like it's so refreshing

1658
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:28,120
Speaker 4: to watch a female character who's just behaving badly, like

1659
01:35:28,200 --> 01:35:32,320
Speaker 4: Harper from Industry watches Challengers and just like this is

1660
01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:36,360
Speaker 4: my inspo, Like I really love Tashi Dugan as a character,

1661
01:35:36,439 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 4: and I think it's probably my favorite Sunday of performance

1662
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:45,240
Speaker 4: thus far because she really shows that she is a

1663
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 4: movie star, but also has it in her to be

1664
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:49,719
Speaker 4: like this really complicated character actress.

1665
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 3: For sure, I'm gonna go for as well. I think

1666
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 3: for the same reasons. I think that there was definitely

1667
01:35:55,240 --> 01:36:00,799
Speaker 3: a room for a relationship with Tashi and another woman,

1668
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:07,080
Speaker 3: specifically a woman in tennis that would have been interesting.

1669
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:11,200
Speaker 3: But I don't know. I mean, it's like, she's such

1670
01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:15,920
Speaker 3: an incredible character. I feel like Challengers is going to

1671
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:18,720
Speaker 3: be thought of as a classic in the future, and

1672
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 3: it's just I don't know. I love seeing Zendaya like

1673
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:25,439
Speaker 3: sort of I feel like this was her real like

1674
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 3: I I don't know, like straddling. She does technically play

1675
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,960
Speaker 3: a teenager in this movie, but she's also like, but

1676
01:36:32,439 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 3: what you really want me to see is play a

1677
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:38,320
Speaker 3: woman who is my current age, and I just know

1678
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:41,360
Speaker 3: that she's gonna do so much amazing stuff. It weirdly

1679
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:43,679
Speaker 3: reminds me a little bit, and maybe I'm just looking

1680
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 3: for an excuse to bring up one of my favorite movies,

1681
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:48,280
Speaker 3: but it reminds me a little bit of it Tanya,

1682
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:51,920
Speaker 3: which is I think, like Margaret Robbie's comparable moment of

1683
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:55,120
Speaker 3: like I'm producing my own movies. Now I'm playing the

1684
01:36:55,200 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 3: character you've seen me play before and I'm doing this

1685
01:36:57,520 --> 01:36:59,720
Speaker 3: other thing you've never seen me do. And I just

1686
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:04,759
Speaker 3: think that, like, we'll keep saying that from her and yeah,

1687
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:07,759
Speaker 3: it's it's it's a great movie. Thank you, Potion Master,

1688
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:09,439
Speaker 3: thank you Luca, than.

1689
01:37:09,439 --> 01:37:14,599
Speaker 2: You well, Princess, thank you so much for joining us,

1690
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:18,120
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Obviously you're welcome back anytime.

1691
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:20,360
Speaker 3: Whatever you want you bring, you bring a very different

1692
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:21,679
Speaker 3: movie to the table every time.

1693
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 4: I know what how we collectic. I'm like, next, we're

1694
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 4: gonna do Barry Lyndon for the boys.

1695
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:32,479
Speaker 2: We got we gotta do something for this.

1696
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:35,639
Speaker 3: I still haven't seen it. I know Candle's question mark,

1697
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 3: That's what I know.

1698
01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:40,080
Speaker 4: I saw it in theaters with a friends with a

1699
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:42,760
Speaker 4: group of friends in Houston and it had the intermission

1700
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:46,960
Speaker 4: in the middle. Perfect way to see a movie. But yeah,

1701
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:49,719
Speaker 4: call me friend of your coop brooking and needs. I'll

1702
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:52,759
Speaker 4: I'm there for you, guys. Is emotional support.

1703
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:58,439
Speaker 2: Where can people follow you? Check out your work plug away?

1704
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 4: Yay, thank you guys so much. I love being on here.

1705
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:05,479
Speaker 4: You guys can find me on YouTube, Princess Weeks. I

1706
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 4: just had a recent video at about Weathering Heights. I

1707
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:10,280
Speaker 4: have a video coming out by the time this is

1708
01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:14,200
Speaker 4: out about the Tragic Mulatto, which is really interesting and

1709
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:18,920
Speaker 4: very academically and I uh am there and I'm on

1710
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:23,600
Speaker 4: Blue Sky also Princess m weeks with one S for

1711
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 4: Princess because I spelled my name wrong, but I thought

1712
01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:32,280
Speaker 4: it gave it character, so I kept it. And uh yeah,

1713
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:34,679
Speaker 4: I'm just so happy to talk. I just missed talking

1714
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 4: to you guys, so I'm just happy to do that

1715
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 4: all day long.

1716
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:40,880
Speaker 3: That's why we pod that. It is so nice to

1717
01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:44,400
Speaker 3: used nice to hear your voice. And yeah, I don't know,

1718
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 3: I feel like I see you all the time because

1719
01:38:46,280 --> 01:38:49,519
Speaker 3: I have my notifications on for your channel.

1720
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:51,880
Speaker 4: That's how I feel when I hear your voices. Of course,

1721
01:38:51,880 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 4: I subscribe to the Matreon as everyone should. It's all

1722
01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:59,360
Speaker 4: good financially forward women should do. And so sometimes I'm

1723
01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:01,680
Speaker 4: going to bed and listening to you guys. I'm just like,

1724
01:39:02,240 --> 01:39:03,880
Speaker 4: that's so right, exactly.

1725
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 2: And speaking of listeners, if you're not already a Matron,

1726
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:11,639
Speaker 2: get over there the hell over there.

1727
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:15,680
Speaker 3: That's where we're consistently abused by our biggest supporters.

1728
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:18,400
Speaker 4: You're Tashie Duncans.

1729
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:22,800
Speaker 3: Our Tashi Duncans are like talk about the Boondocks Saints.

1730
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 2: Doing and we we are ur Donaldson and we have

1731
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:28,880
Speaker 2: to say, oh yes.

1732
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:30,839
Speaker 3: We're like, yes, mommy, we will talk about.

1733
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 2: The Boondock Saints.

1734
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:34,240
Speaker 3: Yes. That's where. For five dollars a month you can

1735
01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:37,920
Speaker 3: get access to two new exclusive episodes a month on

1736
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:41,360
Speaker 3: a theme usually if you're choosing, and access to over

1737
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:45,439
Speaker 3: two hundred episodes of back catalog. And it is true

1738
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 3: that in the month of March we are doing movies

1739
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:53,400
Speaker 3: that feature Irish characters. And you all voted for the

1740
01:39:53,439 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 3: Boondock Saints and wee beer. Oh, I have no one

1741
01:39:56,960 --> 01:39:59,639
Speaker 3: but yourselves to blame, but not Barry Lyndon.

1742
01:40:01,240 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, oh my gosh. Well, uh yeah you can.

1743
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:10,599
Speaker 2: You can find us on our Matreon, Patreon, dot com

1744
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:14,040
Speaker 2: slash Bechdel Cast. You can also follow us on Instagram.

1745
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:15,360
Speaker 3: And that's that.

1746
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:20,920
Speaker 2: Shall we shall we hit the tennis courts and have

1747
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:23,679
Speaker 2: sex with tennis just like Tashi Doug.

1748
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:33,360
Speaker 3: Yes, Bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production

1749
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:37,680
Speaker 3: of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me Jamie Loftus.

1750
01:40:37,479 --> 01:40:40,960
Speaker 2: And me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by

1751
01:40:41,080 --> 01:40:42,599
Speaker 2: Sophie Lichtermann and.

1752
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:44,960
Speaker 3: Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of them?

1753
01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 2: That's me and our logo and merch and all of

1754
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:52,679
Speaker 2: our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus Ever

1755
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:54,160
Speaker 2: heard of her? Oh My God?

1756
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 3: And our theme song, by the way, was composed by

1757
01:40:57,120 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 3: Mike Kaplan.

1758
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 2: With vocals by Catherine Voskrissy.

1759
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:05,280
Speaker 3: Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.

1760
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:09,559
Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

1761
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:10,400
Speaker 2: Spectelcast