Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making
Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Khannikova.
Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Silver. Today we're going to be talking
Speaker 2: about mostly politics again. There's a lot of news, including
Speaker 2: an assassination attempt against former President Trump.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and we'll be talking about Biden and Biden's
Speaker 1: chances and the jd Vance nomination. And then Nate, you're
Speaker 1: going to have a very personal take on something non political.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I flew home earlier than I might have otherwise
Speaker 2: in the World Chairs Poker because I had a jury summons,
Speaker 2: which I've ducked in the past, and I didn't want
Speaker 2: to duck again. But we'll talk about like a little
Speaker 2: bit of the strategy about why you shouldn't lie to
Speaker 2: like a.
Speaker 3: Federal judge or I guess like a state judge in
Speaker 3: this case.
Speaker 1: That seems like smart policy. All right, So talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, everything that's happened in the political world, I
Speaker 1: think we obviously need to start with kind of the
Speaker 1: most pressing news of the moment, which is that there
Speaker 1: was an assassination attempt on the former President of the
Speaker 1: United States Donald Trump during his rally in Pennsylvania. We
Speaker 1: still don't know much about the shooter except he was right,
Speaker 1: twenty years old, local, and that's about it.
Speaker 2: Twenty years old, twenty years old was a registered Republican,
Speaker 2: although had made at least one donation to a Democratic constituency,
Speaker 2: to a democratic cause. I guess no, he's dead, so
Speaker 2: he's not here to explain his motives. He might fit
Speaker 2: into some sort of in cell if you know that
Speaker 2: term stereotype a little bit. He seems not to have
Speaker 2: had like a lot of social contacts or friends. But
Speaker 2: we may never know very much about his motives. You know,
Speaker 2: we do know, we we don't know.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: Look, I think the country has been lucky to avoid
Speaker 2: something like this. I mean, for sure, talk a lot
Speaker 2: on the show about like the vagaries of fate and
Speaker 2: things like that. And a bullet apparently graized Trump's ear.
Speaker 2: He apparently was looking at some uh some sign or
Speaker 2: some whatever.
Speaker 1: Irate He said it was an immigration graph, so he said,
Speaker 1: border control, border control saved.
Speaker 2: To always look at charts, right, that might literally save
Speaker 2: your life. And he tilted his head to look at
Speaker 2: the chart. The guy was apparently not a very good shot,
Speaker 2: and therefore it just graves his ear.
Speaker 3: I think we don't actually know that.
Speaker 2: Much about like I mean, you know, we talk about
Speaker 2: like President's not disclosing medical information, but an issue with Biden.
Speaker 2: We also haven't really gotten any reports about like did
Speaker 2: this like rupture his ear drum or something Trump, but
Speaker 2: he seems at least more or less okay.
Speaker 1: And after fighting spirits.
Speaker 2: In fighting spirits, I mean, he had this iconic photo
Speaker 2: that was so iconic that some Democrats think, oh, it
Speaker 2: must have been staged. Right, It's like, give me a break,
Speaker 2: And I.
Speaker 1: Want to actually go back to that in one second.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit more. But I do, I
Speaker 1: do want to touch a little bit on the psychology
Speaker 1: of kind of the conspiracy theories around all of us.
Speaker 3: Were gonna ask you about that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because because I think that it's I think
Speaker 1: that's a really important point and the conspiracy theories are
Speaker 1: going on on both sides. Did you want to finish
Speaker 1: up your thought before we get into that. No.
Speaker 2: Look, we are taping this on Wednesday, early afternoon, New
Speaker 2: York time, Wednesday morning, Vegas time.
Speaker 3: We don't really have a lot of polling.
Speaker 2: I know it sounds crass talk about polling for how
Speaker 2: it's affected the race, and we may never know because
Speaker 2: what's happening this week is there's a Republican convention in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: Typically conventions it's like a big paid advertisement for your
Speaker 2: party and so typically produces like a short lived bounce
Speaker 2: in the polling. Trump has also nominated his vice presidential candidate,
Speaker 2: Senator j. D. Vance of Ohio. There's a bunch of
Speaker 2: stuff piling on top of each other. In other words,
Speaker 2: what we can say is that President Biden trails and
Speaker 2: the large majority of these polls, virtually all of the
Speaker 2: nonpartisan polling and swing states and most of them, not
Speaker 2: all of the national polls.
Speaker 3: You know, in the short run, it will probably get worse.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: Again, the contrast between Trump surviving this attack and raising
Speaker 2: his fists and saying fight, fight, fight, versus Biden being
Speaker 2: still quite feeble. There have been a bunch of more
Speaker 2: public appearances by Biden. They've been mixed. When you say mixed,
Speaker 2: it's a euphism for shitty usually, right. You know, he's
Speaker 2: been better in some venues than others.
Speaker 1: Uh best, by the way, and you know when he
Speaker 1: was speaking in NATO and did a really good job
Speaker 1: on f policy, He's still called Kamala VP Trump and
Speaker 1: called Zelenski Putin and people say, oh, you know, you
Speaker 1: mess up all the time. People always have these sorts
Speaker 1: of gaffs. Yes, but right, like this is clearly taking
Speaker 1: a lot out of him, and as we've said over
Speaker 1: and over, it's only going to get worse. This is
Speaker 1: you know, he he is pulled in and we can
Speaker 1: see him fraying in those moments. And I think the
Speaker 1: NATO appearance was one of his best.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I mean even in the prepared demarks he gave
Speaker 2: after the assassination attempt, he said battle box instead of
Speaker 2: ballot box repeatedly. And this is reading off I presume
Speaker 2: a teleprompter. Look, you take some average performance and like
Speaker 2: on his best days, Biden is like a B B plus, right,
Speaker 2: and the worst is like well into f territory.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And by the way, we're not getting that large saple
Speaker 2: because he doesn't do that many events relative to like
Speaker 2: another president always tried to increase the number recently, but
Speaker 2: we have a large enough sample size to say that
Speaker 2: like this is extremely mediocre at best and consistent with
Speaker 2: the pattern of declining cognitive ability. I don't think there's
Speaker 2: any other way to say that. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe by some weird coincience, he just can't speak very coherently.
Speaker 2: But the other facilities are fine, right, I mean faculties, facilities, whatever.
Speaker 2: Like maybe it's okay, but like he wants to be
Speaker 2: present for another four years and it's just kind of
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really like an emperor. This is a
Speaker 2: title of a previous episode, right, It's like an emperor
Speaker 2: has no close moment. It's plainly obvious that like he
Speaker 2: has lost his fastball. He might have even lost his
Speaker 2: change up. Right, he is like lobbying pitches up over
Speaker 2: the center of the plate. And because we're a very
Speaker 2: partisan country, I mean, he's gonna get whatever forty four
Speaker 2: percent of the voter something in a three way race
Speaker 2: with also three party candidates on the.
Speaker 3: Ballot, and like maybe he could win.
Speaker 2: I don't know, right, I mean, he's not that that
Speaker 2: that far behind in the polling. It's a problem for
Speaker 2: him or any Democrat that like the electoral College favors Republicans.
Speaker 2: But like it's hard to imagine another Democrat doing worse
Speaker 2: than this, I guess, right, yeh, I mean, I you know,
Speaker 2: I mean in a poll that came out this morning
Speaker 2: from the Associated Press and the NRC, which is a
Speaker 2: survey organization at the University of Caigo. Two thirds of
Speaker 2: Democrats say he should be replaced. When two thirds of
Speaker 2: your own party wants you out, I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: think there's like any precedent for this. People can cite
Speaker 2: Trump in twenty sixteen after the Access Hollywood tap, like,
Speaker 2: but Republicans Democrats are different, and Republican voters were very
Speaker 2: loyal to Trump. Democrats, or I think, are a little
Speaker 2: bit more realistic apparently, except maybe the party leadership, which
Speaker 2: is lying to itself and lying to the American public.
Speaker 2: And there's like, there's no other way to put it, right,
Speaker 2: It's some combination of lying and cowardice, two qualities that
Speaker 2: I really dislike. Right, So, if you're at the ven
Speaker 2: diagram of gutlessness and lying, then you know, I have
Speaker 2: no respect for you. It's like a permanent we'll never
Speaker 2: respect you a gain in your life if you pick
Speaker 2: one right, tell us strategically, you know, lie once or twice, right,
Speaker 2: and we've all lied in our life, right, or you
Speaker 2: know whatever. But like in that if you're in that
Speaker 2: overlap of being a coward, and a liar, then I
Speaker 2: will never respect you again. And if I were a donor,
Speaker 2: I would never want to ever give any money to
Speaker 2: any Democrat as long as like the people that are
Speaker 2: currently run the Democratic Party are in charge of the party.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean I think that's fair. I think
Speaker 1: that's fair, and we should definitely let's let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about the Democrats. But before we completely
Speaker 1: pivot to that, let's do a little bit of a
Speaker 1: recap on kind of the aftermath of the assassination attempt
Speaker 1: on Trump, because I do think it's really important to
Speaker 1: address the fact that we do have conspiracy theories emerging
Speaker 1: on both sides. Right, you have Democrats saying, oh, look
Speaker 1: at this photograph, this was stage. You have Republicans, I
Speaker 1: mean mostly it's Democrats actually saying that this was this
Speaker 1: was stage. But you have people saying that this was staged,
Speaker 1: that it wasn't an actual attempt, that you know, how
Speaker 1: you know, how did this gun man get here, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. And by the way, there were definite security lapses. Right,
Speaker 1: we now know that people fucked up to allow this
Speaker 1: gunman there. I think to say that it was staged
Speaker 1: is just like absolutely ludicrous because of many reasons. But
Speaker 1: first of all, if a bullet grazed his ear, do
Speaker 1: you realize, like the level of precision of marksmanship that
Speaker 1: you would have to have to make sure that it
Speaker 1: grazed the ear and not something else. What if the
Speaker 1: winds changed, What if, you know, last minute, something happened,
Speaker 1: like you could kill the person that you're supposed to
Speaker 1: just pretend to assassinate, and people in the crowd died. Right,
Speaker 1: we have one death, we have critical injuries. So I
Speaker 1: think that to call this fake is just absolutely disconnected
Speaker 1: from reality. And yet we are seeing more and more
Speaker 1: of these moments where conspiracy theories, conspiratorial type thinking is
Speaker 1: gaining ascendence, and I think that that has actually that
Speaker 1: pattern started during the first Trump presidency, because he is
Speaker 1: someone who loves to kind of endorse conspiracy theories and say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, this person did this, they meddled with this,
Speaker 1: the election was stolen. There all these hidden forces and
Speaker 1: a lot of the reasons why Trump appeals to voters
Speaker 1: is actually a lot of the reasons why conspiracy theories
Speaker 1: appeal to people's brains. So what we know about conspiracy
Speaker 1: theory thinking is that First of all, when you're feeling
Speaker 1: kind of out of control, when you're feeling disenfranchised, when
Speaker 1: you're feeling you know, left out, like things are spirally
Speaker 1: out of control, Conspiracy theories are amazing because either you
Speaker 1: have to just say, Okay, shit happens and random bad
Speaker 1: shit happens, and shit happens for no reason, or you
Speaker 1: can say, there are these bad guys and there are
Speaker 1: these bad forces, and they actually like have this whole
Speaker 1: big thing, and that's why this is happening. Right, there's
Speaker 1: someone to blame. I have a scapegoat. I can say
Speaker 1: that this is the reason that bad things are happening
Speaker 1: to me, This is the reason why I'm poor, why
Speaker 1: I'm disenfranchised, Why this, Why that because there's this big
Speaker 1: bad thing in the world. Whereas you know, the other
Speaker 1: explanation that it's just random, it's just noise doesn't intuitively
Speaker 1: appeal to the human brain. And there's also been you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of work that shows connections between stress, anxiety,
Speaker 1: all sorts of those types of feelings and conspiratorial thinking.
Speaker 1: When you know, we talked in the past about some
Speaker 1: of my research on why people fall for con artists,
Speaker 1: and you actually see yeah, that ven diagram overlaps a
Speaker 1: lot the people who fall for con artists and the
Speaker 1: people who fall for conspiracy type thinking, because what we
Speaker 1: said with con artists is that you find that people
Speaker 1: when they're in moments of transition, uncertainty, change, anxiety, when
Speaker 1: things are wrong in their life, they love the story,
Speaker 1: the nice narrative that con artists offer, the hope that
Speaker 1: they offer, and conspiracy theories. It's the exact same thing.
Speaker 1: When you're in those types of moments in your life,
Speaker 1: that's when you embrace them. That's when you say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, well this is happening and this is wrong.
Speaker 1: Funny thing is here, you know, it's an irony here
Speaker 1: that this type of thinking which is embraced by Republican
Speaker 1: followers of Donald Trump and by don you know, stoked
Speaker 1: by Donald Trump, that we see this now in the
Speaker 1: Democrats who might be feeling disenfranchised, who might be feeling
Speaker 1: like people aren't listening to them, and so who might
Speaker 1: who might now be saying, oh, this is staged, and
Speaker 1: so it's funny that it's actually bipartisan, this type of thing.
Speaker 2: You know, you can't have a conspiracy without con I
Speaker 2: guess right, I was gonna ask you about that.
Speaker 3: No, and like and.
Speaker 2: Probably among the like donor elite class, the biggest defender
Speaker 2: of Biden has been Reid Hoffman, who was a founder
Speaker 2: of LinkedIn. His chief strategist a guy named Dimitri. I
Speaker 2: think it's Melhorne M E H L H O r
Speaker 2: N send an email on like Saturday night saying, you know,
Speaker 2: this is a Russian tactic. This is what Putin would do.
Speaker 2: And I don't think it's a coincidence. Maybe it's a
Speaker 2: little unfair, but like, but like you are denying basic
Speaker 2: reac to say it's a good idea to nominate Joe Biden.
Speaker 3: Like never mind even.
Speaker 2: Like the political implications, like this guy shouldn't be president
Speaker 2: for four more years.
Speaker 3: It's just obvious you cannot speak consistently enough.
Speaker 2: And so so you're selecting for and again, two thirds
Speaker 2: of Democratic voters in some polls a little bit less,
Speaker 2: you know, but half to two thirds, depending which pole
Speaker 2: you look at.
Speaker 3: I think the nomination should be replaced.
Speaker 2: So you're you're you know, you're selecting for the one
Speaker 2: third of the party that's like out of touch with reality,
Speaker 2: I guess, But no, Look, I think as someone who
Speaker 2: thinks a lot about as we both do about like
Speaker 2: game theory and incentives. I mean, when you're the party
Speaker 2: that says we are the righteous people, right, we are
Speaker 2: the people that are speaking truth to power. And maybe
Speaker 2: it was true five years ago, but when you when
Speaker 2: you think that and you begin to act like that,
Speaker 2: and then you begin to behave, kind of behave kind
Speaker 2: of badly, when you're like, we're the party who is
Speaker 2: on the side of justice and truth, and like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I mean, it's deeply disappointed by the way
Speaker 2: I got in a fight with Jamie Harrison, who is
Speaker 2: the head of the Democratic National Committee right out of
Speaker 2: the DNC.
Speaker 1: I mean, where the who looks worse?
Speaker 2: I think he does because I'm just a fucking blogger, right,
Speaker 2: I'm just a little brawler blogger and his job. It's
Speaker 2: the week of the RNC instead of driving messing about
Speaker 2: the DNC. And the reason I gotten into the fight
Speaker 2: is that he is lying and the Democratic Party is
Speaker 2: lying about this need to advance a date at which
Speaker 2: Joe Biden is nominated.
Speaker 3: So the convention is in mid August. What is it like?
Speaker 2: I think the twenty second ish of August is like
Speaker 2: the date, right, somewhere around then. So, however, they are
Speaker 2: claiming that they had to have this virtual role call
Speaker 2: to nominate Biden originally in like a week, and now
Speaker 2: they're pushing it back to August seventh.
Speaker 3: That's just not true, right, It's a lie. Right.
Speaker 2: So the reason is that originally the state of Ohio
Speaker 2: had a law that said you have to nominate your
Speaker 2: canap by August seventh, which is before the Democratic Convention. Right,
Speaker 2: how well that law would have held up in reality,
Speaker 2: I'm not so sure. It would have been subject I
Speaker 2: think to a lot of constitutional and legal challenges. But
Speaker 2: they changed that law and said, Okay, that was stupid.
Speaker 2: Now you have until September first instead, or you have
Speaker 2: you know, there's plenty of time whoever you nominate at
Speaker 2: the convention. It is, by the way, August twenty second
Speaker 2: is a last day will be printed on ballots in Ohio.
Speaker 2: Democrats are claiming that, or Jamie Harrison's claiming, and the
Speaker 2: DNC is claiming that, like, oh, you never know what
Speaker 2: Republicans will do next, and so therefore we have to
Speaker 2: still have this virtual role call ahead of the convention.
Speaker 2: When election law experts say this isn't true, that like
Speaker 2: experts in the primary process have literally called this misinformation.
Speaker 2: I mean, and by the way, it's also you talk
Speaker 2: about like lying and cowardly in the overlap, Well, the
Speaker 2: DNC is in that very much, in that Venn diagram
Speaker 2: of being cowardly and lying to people, because like, first
Speaker 2: of all, the Democratic Party sets its own rules, and
Speaker 2: the rules say that you nominate the candidate at the
Speaker 2: convention and have a vote of the delegates, who are
Speaker 2: by the way, like literally dealt into the process. In
Speaker 2: most states when you vote, if you read the fine print, right,
Speaker 2: it actually says you are voting for delegates to the
Speaker 2: Democratic Convention.
Speaker 3: You're not voting for Joe Biden.
Speaker 2: Technically, I mean, that's like kind of the beauty contest
Speaker 2: aspect of it, right, You're voting for delegates. In some
Speaker 2: states you actually have to check the circle the box
Speaker 2: for the names of delegates.
Speaker 3: In some you don't. It's automatic.
Speaker 2: But like that's the process that's in place, is that
Speaker 2: you have Joe Biden delegates. And in most states, Democratic
Speaker 2: delegates are not legally bound to vote for the candidate
Speaker 2: that they that they were selected for. Right, they have
Speaker 2: a conscious clause that says if you think, in good conscience,
Speaker 2: you can't nominate this candidate, then then you can pick
Speaker 2: somebody else. If there's no majority on the first ballot,
Speaker 2: then also super delegates get involved, are who are not
Speaker 2: necessarily Biden loyals, and they've been trying to circummit this
Speaker 2: process and like and like lying about the need for
Speaker 2: about a law that was changed and which anyway, you
Speaker 2: shouldn't let the Republican Party if you're a Democrat, if
Speaker 2: you're supposed to defend democracy, you shouldn't let the Republican
Speaker 2: Party dictate your terms. I mean that's like bad strategy.
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure, like who are they trying to bluff?
Speaker 2: I mean, they're they're not just liars. They're like the
Speaker 2: stupidest fucking liars I've ever fucking met in my life.
Speaker 2: They're running a bad, obvious bluff and they and they
Speaker 2: have such a short time horizon, meaning they're trying to
Speaker 2: win the news cycle and not thinking about like, well,
Speaker 2: you're just kind of digging yourself a deeper hole and
Speaker 2: like torturing your credibility later on. It just it's offensive
Speaker 2: to me, yeah, now as an American voter, but also
Speaker 2: as like someone who cares about like strategy, like what
Speaker 2: are they doing?
Speaker 1: No, I mean they're playing a very short game, which
Speaker 1: you know people people ask me sometimes about you know,
Speaker 1: Oh well, since I'm working on a book about cheating, right,
Speaker 1: why why don't people like cheat more in these types
Speaker 1: of situations where they're talking about like poker or something
Speaker 1: like that. And I always say, well, you can't. You know,
Speaker 1: you can think about, Okay, you can cheat in one
Speaker 1: game and you know, make off with however much money. However,
Speaker 1: you need to consider reputational costs and what this actually means.
Speaker 1: If you get caught, if you develop that reputation, that's it, right,
Speaker 1: Like you're done. You will never you will never be
Speaker 1: able to be in this ecosystem again, or at least
Speaker 1: that's how it should be.
Speaker 4: We'll be back in just a minute now.
Speaker 1: The reason that sometimes cheating does happen, and right now,
Speaker 1: I know we're talking about lying versus cheating, but there
Speaker 1: are similar types of things. When you're talking about game theory,
Speaker 1: right when you break the rules, when you when you
Speaker 1: misrepresent what's going on. Is if you think that you're
Speaker 1: going to be able to get away with it, and
Speaker 1: that there will be enough kind of gray area around
Speaker 1: whether or not you actually did it. And if you
Speaker 1: think that there aren't going to be repercussions, even if
Speaker 1: it turns out that people did catch you cheating, right,
Speaker 1: even if you know they say, okay, yes I cheated,
Speaker 1: but I'm changed now, I'm better, and there are no
Speaker 1: repercussions and you're allowed back into the community. Then that's
Speaker 1: when cheating becomes profitable. And when you realize, Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: in this one off, I cheated. I defected. If we're
Speaker 1: talking game theoretical terms, right, I defected, I made I
Speaker 1: made the payoff. You know, I was the bad guy.
Speaker 1: But then they let me play the game again. They said, okay,
Speaker 1: we forgive you. We believe that you're not going to
Speaker 1: do it again, and you can keep playing. Then that
Speaker 1: actually incentivizes it. So I'm wondering, Nate, do you think
Speaker 1: that that sort of dynamic might possibly be in play
Speaker 1: in their thinking here?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Oh, because I think if Biden loses, then they're gonna
Speaker 2: be incredible recriminations and like the people associated with it
Speaker 2: will be like I mean, look, famously, it's hard to
Speaker 2: get permanently kicked out of a party, but like, look,
Speaker 2: people have like for literally two years been saying this
Speaker 2: might be a bad idea to renominate Biden, but particularly
Speaker 2: since the debate, right, this will be like the most
Speaker 2: widely predicted slow motion car crash and political history, and
Speaker 2: the people that are responsible for it will Again I'm
Speaker 2: cynical about the Democratic Party and the Republican Party certainly,
Speaker 2: but like, I think that, like, if you're one of
Speaker 2: these people, if you're Jamie Harrison or Ron Klain who's
Speaker 2: one of the chief strategists for Biden, or these other people, right,
Speaker 2: I think you're gonna be remembered by history, or at
Speaker 2: least by Democrats in history, as a villain. So I'm
Speaker 2: going to offer amnesty to Jamie Harrison or Ron Klain
Speaker 2: and whatever else. Renounce this horrible decision you're making. Come
Speaker 2: on this program and renounce it, or come on and
Speaker 2: like and let's have an actual conversation and have an
Speaker 2: adult conversation and a real conversation about strategy, right, and
Speaker 2: not lie to people. Come on this program, and then
Speaker 2: I will promise not to write mean tweets about you
Speaker 2: ever again.
Speaker 1: Yes, and the only F bombs will be in conversation
Speaker 1: and a.
Speaker 3: Very organic yes organic No.
Speaker 1: I mean I think I don't know, Like it feels
Speaker 1: like every single episode these days, you and I are
Speaker 1: talking about sunk cost fallacies, but like once. But it's
Speaker 1: just we're seeing it over and over, just like what
Speaker 1: you're saying right now, come on and kind of renounce it.
Speaker 1: It does not mean that you know you were an idiot.
Speaker 1: It means that you're being smart now. Information changes and
Speaker 1: you have to change your decision when the information set
Speaker 1: tells you that you need to change your decision. That's
Speaker 1: the smart thing to do. That's the responsible thing to do.
Speaker 1: That's the intelligent thing to do. It makes you look good.
Speaker 1: It does not make you look weak. And this, this
Speaker 1: whole you know, this whole thing is about being afraid
Speaker 1: to look weak. And I think that that's something that's
Speaker 1: uniting the Democrats who are afraid to kind of speak
Speaker 1: out more. It's uniting Biden in being afraid to step down.
Speaker 1: Everyone is afraid that, oh, this will make me look
Speaker 1: like less of a man. Sorry, but it is a
Speaker 1: very masculine thing to do that, even though you know
Speaker 1: RBG yet we talked about females doing similar things, but
Speaker 1: it is often like a very macho thing, Like I
Speaker 1: do not want to look weak. I do not want
Speaker 1: to look like I'm wishy washy changing my mind, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And that actually is what looks weak. And sometimes the
Speaker 1: much stronger thing is saying, okay, you know, time to
Speaker 1: time to change my mind, time to admit I was wrong.
Speaker 1: And it takes, you know, it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: guts to say I was wrong. You know, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Mia culpa. Let's let's move on from this playing field.
Speaker 1: But I think that that needs to happen. But Nate,
Speaker 1: I'm actually, as we get into mid July now closer
Speaker 1: and closer to August, like I'm starting to I don't
Speaker 1: know if despair is the right word, but like it's
Speaker 1: the odds of Biden stepping aside to me seem to
Speaker 1: be going down, at least in my own personal mind.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what your personal take is on this. Are
Speaker 1: you are you seeing are you still? Are you still
Speaker 1: much more confident than I am that Biden will step aside?
Speaker 1: Or are you losing a little confidence? As well as
Speaker 1: partly closer and closer if.
Speaker 2: You go to Polymarket, which I should disclose I am
Speaker 2: kind of proudly an advisory to Polymarket, but it is
Speaker 2: the most robust of the exchanges. Biden has a thirty
Speaker 2: seven seven percent chance of dropping out. I think I'd
Speaker 2: still buy that. I think i'd probably put it at
Speaker 2: closer to fifty to fifty. But as you were implying, Maria,
Speaker 2: like I was above fifty to fifty, and maybe that
Speaker 2: maybe that like concedes to much rationality to the Democratic Party.
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, what's like kind of the the catalyst.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't expect it to come this week because it
Speaker 2: is like the RNC. It's a little bit weird to
Speaker 2: be like Jimmy Harrison off message and fighting with people.
Speaker 2: I'm not a Democrat, but like fighting with people who
Speaker 2: would ordinarily be sympathetic to you when the other party's
Speaker 2: having it's conventioned. You want a message that like jd
Speaker 2: Vance is this guy that's not very good, not many
Speaker 2: whatever else. I think next week is kind of I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say, like the last straw, because until August twenty second,
Speaker 2: or if they moved in earlier August seventh or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, right and even after that, by the way,
Speaker 2: the candidate, like if Biden dies, if Biden's dominated August
Speaker 2: twenty second and dies the next day, August twenty third,
Speaker 2: you can still have the RN or the DNC rather
Speaker 2: replace the candidate, and by that point it would still
Speaker 2: be time to like print up new ballots. By the way,
Speaker 2: if you're one of these Democrats who like is like, well,
Speaker 2: whin Spiden's nomine you'll have to like root for him
Speaker 2: and point out like, no, don't do that, can't you
Speaker 2: can't do that. You're playing You're playing a long game here.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna notice and I will send me in tweets
Speaker 2: about people that like that, like have been team replaced Biden,
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden they say, well, we
Speaker 2: have to defend that. It's like, no, you don't want
Speaker 2: to bet behavior that's this bad and that's just dishonest.
Speaker 1: Right yeah, well let's let's uh. In terms of people
Speaker 1: who were you know, replaced Biden and now Team Biden,
Speaker 1: I think we have a very huge example of something
Speaker 1: similar on the Republican side, where the nominee for VP
Speaker 1: jd Vance was team Never Trump and then and then
Speaker 1: became the vice presidential nominee and seems like he might
Speaker 1: potentially be like a true believer convert, which are your
Speaker 1: your best allies? I saw a cartoon, which to me
Speaker 1: just really summed it up. It was a cartoon of JD.
Speaker 1: Vance and the caption said something like, yes, sir, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry that I compared you to America's Hitler and
Speaker 1: so relieved that you took it as a compliment, And
Speaker 1: that just about just about summed it up perfectly.
Speaker 2: So we're god because like in another world, like JD.
Speaker 2: Vance would be hosting a podcast or something, right.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely. It's so funny by the way, when people
Speaker 1: are like, oh, he was such a natural speaker at
Speaker 1: the convention, I'm like, yeah, no, shit, like that's what
Speaker 1: he used to do, right, Like he was a best
Speaker 1: selling author who who was kind of this pundit and
Speaker 1: ended up, you know, being able to win a senatorial
Speaker 1: seat with zero experience. I mean, whose first political office
Speaker 1: is senate? Is you a senate? Like how often does
Speaker 1: that happen? I actually don't know the answer to that 's.
Speaker 2: Like it's pretty rare because we you know, I've actually
Speaker 2: modeled congressional races and there's a variable for like what
Speaker 2: elected office have you held before. There's like a four
Speaker 2: tier system, right and jd Vance is in tier zero.
Speaker 2: He has not held elected office before. I think he
Speaker 2: hadn't run for elected office before.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what you think, Like I do think.
Speaker 2: Like objectively unquote, he's you know, in the certainly upper
Speaker 2: tier of like the Q spectrum, I guess, but I
Speaker 2: don't know. I think someone who's very smart and very
Speaker 2: craven maybe is not the best.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I think that's no. I think that
Speaker 1: that's actually very dangerous. You know who else is very
Speaker 1: very smart and in the upper echelon of IQ skills
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin, Right, So he was also someone who people thought, oh,
Speaker 1: he's not serious, he's just using this as like, you know,
Speaker 1: he doesn't actually believe all this stuff, like let's install
Speaker 1: him to power in Russia and he's going to be
Speaker 1: easily pliable and malleable and do what we say and hahaha, right,
Speaker 1: jokes on you, like, absolutely fucking not. He was exactly
Speaker 1: what you know what he is now, and he was
Speaker 1: just very smart and playing the very very long game.
Speaker 1: And I actually see TRACE's advance in that. I think
Speaker 1: he's very smart. I think he's playing the long game.
Speaker 1: I think he is absolutely devoid of a moral center
Speaker 1: and he wants power, and that is very very scary,
Speaker 1: and that is something where he overlaps with Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: I think they're both. This is why, you know, when
Speaker 1: I've talked before about Donald Trump as a con artist,
Speaker 1: said what motivates conn artists?
Speaker 3: Power?
Speaker 1: Control, control over other people. That's the that's the main motivation.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's what Trump sees Advance. That's
Speaker 1: somewhere where they completely overlap. And that's a very scary ticket,
Speaker 1: especially since you know jd. Vance is young, and he
Speaker 1: is a very good speaker, and he is good at
Speaker 1: appealing to people, and so you know, if Trump wins,
Speaker 1: the chance of Jadvan's becoming the next president is not low.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know people talk about the implications for this November,
Speaker 2: but like if you're a VP nominee for a major party,
Speaker 2: particularly one that is more likely than not to win
Speaker 2: this election, then and there's like a you know, there's
Speaker 2: like a fifty to fifty is chance that Jadvan's become
Speaker 2: president at some point. By the way, the first person
Speaker 2: on a presidential take get nominated, who's like, who's younger
Speaker 2: than me?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: When when Tom Brady retired, right, he was the one
Speaker 2: athlete who was like older than me, Like that was
Speaker 2: that was depressing. And now you have a nominee who's
Speaker 2: younger and shorter than me for vice president in the Republican.
Speaker 3: Party five six, five nine ish.
Speaker 1: Well he's five six, he's shorter than me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and there have not been very many short
Speaker 2: presidents elected recently. We can debate whether that's signal or noise,
Speaker 2: I suppose, but but yeah, and also you kind of
Speaker 2: like you kind of become.
Speaker 3: The con.
Speaker 2: It's some I mean, I I don't want to say
Speaker 2: he's a con, but like it's hard to maintain, like
Speaker 2: I don't want to play this role as character.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think. I don't think it's possible. And
Speaker 1: I think that he has shown himself capable of these
Speaker 1: absolute shifts by the way, he had a section of
Speaker 1: his website which was like I'm one hundred percent anti abortion,
Speaker 1: no abortions ever, blah blah blah, like went on and on,
Speaker 1: and it seems that that section was deleted, and so
Speaker 1: you know that I don't know if it's still deleted
Speaker 1: or if it's back up. That's why that's why I'm
Speaker 1: padging this. But someone who who is basically capable of
Speaker 1: these like complete pivots in the moment. You know, Trump
Speaker 1: isn't America's next hitler. Donald Trump is the savior you know,
Speaker 1: these types of things. Is someone who's incredibly dangerous because
Speaker 1: it's someone who really really has, as I said, no
Speaker 1: moral center, but also just no conviction, no self other
Speaker 1: than you know, what self do I need to be
Speaker 1: to put myself in the position of greatest power?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: What do I need to do? What face do I
Speaker 1: need to put on? The ultimate con artist, kind of
Speaker 1: the impostor the person who can be anyone to anyone
Speaker 1: depending on what's going on. But the fact that he
Speaker 1: did have these you know, one hundred percent anti abortion,
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, I think does show kind of
Speaker 1: some of his views and some of the things that
Speaker 1: he does take with him. And you know, I've heard
Speaker 1: I've heard people say, and I think that this makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense that another reason why he's so
Speaker 1: good on the Trump ticket is he's someone who's you know,
Speaker 1: he is someone who it will be very focused on
Speaker 1: actually pulling those levers of power to pass the very
Speaker 1: conservative America First agenda. Unlike people he's being compared to.
Speaker 1: Some people are comparing him to Reagan or to Nixon,
Speaker 1: but you know, those presidents were much more global minded
Speaker 1: as well, and JD. Vance seems like he's going to
Speaker 1: be very much America first. I mean, he was one
Speaker 1: of the leading voices against against Ukraine, right against aid
Speaker 1: to Ukraine, which is you know, and against all of
Speaker 1: these packages, which is really troubling because if you think
Speaker 1: about the fact that we have to think about, you know,
Speaker 1: global alliances, the fact that when Trump was president he
Speaker 1: pulled out of a lot of these different agreements, that
Speaker 1: a lot of them were fraying, and that Biden has
Speaker 1: tried to kind of do do the opposite, undo some
Speaker 1: of that. But now if we have a Trump Advance ticket,
Speaker 1: you know, think, let's think ahead, because you need to.
Speaker 1: Elections are not just about this year. We're talking about
Speaker 1: the next four years, about the next eight years. We're
Speaker 1: talking about a huge chunk of political future and personal
Speaker 1: future for a lot of people. And you have to
Speaker 1: when you think in those terms, it becomes very frightening
Speaker 1: to think of a president and a vice president who
Speaker 1: feel the way they feel about involvement in the external world.
Speaker 1: What does that mean, you know, for America's role in
Speaker 1: the world, What does that mean for foreign conflicts. What
Speaker 1: does that mean for everything? I mean to me, like
Speaker 1: those things are obviously as a woman, like the abortion
Speaker 1: stuff is very personal and like very immediate and very
Speaker 1: worrisome on that level. But I'm also very worried as
Speaker 1: a human being, as an immigrant, as a gommal citizen,
Speaker 1: you know, as someone whose dad is Ukrainian, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm very worried about the implications of things like that
Speaker 1: as well. And I think that we haven't talked enough
Speaker 1: about that, and people are just being way too focused
Speaker 1: on the present moment. And I'm actually quite concerned about
Speaker 1: the JD. Van's nomination.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Trump has soft pedaled abortion a little bit.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, if you look at the two parties,
Speaker 2: and it seems like Republicans care about witting more, which,
Speaker 2: since elections are a popularity contest, is something which I
Speaker 2: find not admirable exactly, but like at least strategically wise.
Speaker 2: Although with this pick, you know, Ohio is not a
Speaker 2: swing state, I do not understand how he appeals to
Speaker 2: swing voters. Maybe he'll give a good speech, I guess
Speaker 2: tonight as we're taking this is like going to be
Speaker 2: his convention speech, but like it seems like.
Speaker 3: Not I don't know.
Speaker 2: Apparently they're reporting that like Trump wanted to pick Doug Burgham,
Speaker 2: who is the governor of North Dakota, and was dissuaded
Speaker 2: by it by Eric Trump, his son, and his other son,
Speaker 2: Donald Trump Junior. So we think that like, oh, we
Speaker 2: kind of model out. Oh here's this rational behavior. You
Speaker 2: have some phdcs rational behavior among political balltapah. Right, Actually,
Speaker 2: it's just fucking Eric Trump and Donald Trump Junior on
Speaker 2: the one hand, and apparently, according to other reporting, hunter
Speaker 2: fucking Biden and Jill Biden on the other end.
Speaker 3: That was just beside.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, on both sides. Right, who is the advisors?
Speaker 1: Who's actually advising? Like your sons, your wife and your son.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is it is. It is kind of crazy.
Speaker 1: It would be hilarious if it weren't so serious, if
Speaker 1: we weren't actually in an election. Yeah, okay, So Nate,
Speaker 1: bottom line, what does the fact that Donald Trump has
Speaker 1: picked JD. Vance as his vice presidential nominee mean for
Speaker 1: his chances of winning the election?
Speaker 2: Look, I think it means, among other things, that he's
Speaker 2: not ticking the high road. I mean, Vance is quite partisan.
Speaker 2: After the assassination attempt by the way, He sent out
Speaker 2: a tweet saying that, like Joe, Biden's rhetoric was like
Speaker 2: responsible for for the environment that led to the assassination attempt.
Speaker 2: Before he was picked, it was kind of like a
Speaker 2: raise your hand, oh, mabie me like teacher, teacher, pick me,
Speaker 2: picked me, pick me.
Speaker 3: But no, it's it's.
Speaker 2: A not the high road approach, and I think not
Speaker 2: the smartest one. Look, Trump might have picked somebody totally wacky,
Speaker 2: right at least this guy, uh has been a center
Speaker 2: for a year and a half, or he's been in
Speaker 2: the military. Best selling author, you know, Maria, as best
Speaker 2: selling authors, we should be championing our author turned vice president.
Speaker 2: But it's it's not the choice that I think would
Speaker 2: maximize the chances of winning the electoral college. And especially
Speaker 2: given that like unlike Biden, Trump is ahead now, he
Speaker 2: should be fairly risk averse. Maybe he thinks he's so
Speaker 2: far ahead that he's gonna win anyway. And therefore here's
Speaker 2: a guy that will like perpetuate trumpiness, ma goodness or
Speaker 2: magodness or however you say it, and be my heir apparent.
Speaker 2: But you know, as the candy who I think has
Speaker 2: run the smarter of the two campaigns so far. This
Speaker 2: is a I think a medium bad decision, a medium
Speaker 2: bad misstep.
Speaker 3: I meant to.
Speaker 1: Say, we'll be back after a quick break.
Speaker 2: So, Maria, the World Series of Poker is is it over?
Speaker 3: Today?
Speaker 1: It's well today, Today is the last day of the
Speaker 1: live events, and then there are two more online.
Speaker 2: Events, okay, which are kind of fake, but let's not
Speaker 2: talk about so we won't.
Speaker 1: We won't talk about the fact that their online events
Speaker 1: are fake, especially if I want to if I went,
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I love the World Series of Poker, but I don't
Speaker 2: mean literally fake. But like I think it's just a
Speaker 2: different species.
Speaker 1: Of PA I totally I totally agree. I totally agree.
Speaker 1: I do not think there should be any online Bracelet events.
Speaker 1: So so we're actually on the same page there. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's winding down, and man, Nate, I am exhausted, you know,
Speaker 1: I and I took time off. I haven't been here
Speaker 1: the whole time, and I am just tired, tired, tired.
Speaker 1: So today is my last event. It's one thousand dollars
Speaker 1: super Turbo so event.
Speaker 3: Last year or something.
Speaker 2: Right, it's a little it's a little bit depressing that,
Speaker 2: I mean, they're like literally like boarding up the Paris
Speaker 2: and Bally's or horses. Excuse me as you're playing. It's
Speaker 2: a little bit, a little bit depressing. I flew home
Speaker 2: early because I had a jury summons yesterday, which was Tuesday.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Nate, I've been called for jury duty three
Speaker 1: times and I've gotten out of it all three times.
Speaker 1: All three have been in New York. The first time
Speaker 1: I was in grad school and it was an asbestos trial.
Speaker 1: So they're like, this trial is going to be for
Speaker 1: at least like four months or six and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm a grad student, like and they were like, okay,
Speaker 1: I dismissed right, like that.
Speaker 3: That was That's what happened is I went in.
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't want to like tell because honestly,
Speaker 2: if you're a journalist, then probably you could like go
Speaker 2: and like and say, I'm a journalist, I have all
Speaker 2: these strong political views, right, you probably won't get selected.
Speaker 2: But like, I didn't want to like tell any lies
Speaker 2: or like literally you're sworn in, right, you raise your
Speaker 2: hand and say I will not tell a lie whatever else, right,
Speaker 2: and the and the judge says that, like because if
Speaker 2: it had been this week, I mean we'd have I
Speaker 2: would have worked around it, right, I could have, like I,
Speaker 2: you know, and because a lot of these trials are
Speaker 2: like two or three days, but the judge was like,
Speaker 2: this is going to go for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: If you have conflicts, raise your hand. And I raise
Speaker 2: my hand because I have, like, I have hard conflicts.
Speaker 2: I have travel next week, I have this book promotion
Speaker 2: thing that things that like I prescheduled, I can't avoid,
Speaker 2: so therefore I can't really serve. And they're understanding of that.
Speaker 2: But don't don't bluff, right, because they also said because
Speaker 2: the judge also says she's this funny woman, she's like,
Speaker 2: you know, by the way, it's important for you to
Speaker 2: understand that just because somebody was arrested, this is a
Speaker 2: guy who was arrested for some robbery. Right, just because
Speaker 2: the guy was arrested doesn't mean that he's guilty. Sometimes
Speaker 2: people are arrested for the wrong reasons. It's important that
Speaker 2: you understand that as a juror just everyone in the room.
Speaker 2: At this point, we haven't select the jury yet. There
Speaker 2: are probably sixty people, right, you know, raise your hand
Speaker 2: if you don't understand that, right, And as like woman
Speaker 2: raise her hands. She's like, I believe if the cops
Speaker 2: arrest somebody, they must be guilty.
Speaker 3: It's like a.
Speaker 2: Very bad bluff. Uh, And the judge is like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you're not fit for this criminal trial, but we're gonna
Speaker 2: put you back in the rubber room and you'll get
Speaker 2: a civil trial, and the civil trials are longer. Right,
Speaker 2: So like that bluff was like yeah, yeah, so like
Speaker 2: that woman sucked up. Don't like, don't give these bullshit
Speaker 2: unverifiable excuses, right yeah, uh, you know, I don't know
Speaker 2: what ultimately happened to her, but like the rest of
Speaker 2: us who like who had legitimate excuses, were like put
Speaker 2: back in this room and told to go at three thirty.
Speaker 3: Right, that was up to some different room.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if she'll ever be heard from again,
Speaker 2: but like, don't don't lie to a judge about like,
Speaker 2: oh I believe that like all you know, she's her
Speaker 2: always right.
Speaker 1: Yes, she's the subject of uh Kafka's next novel, written
Speaker 1: from Beyond the Grave. Yes she she she definitely fucked up.
Speaker 1: But no, I think I think Jerry duty is a
Speaker 1: really funny thing because obviously, like we want to serve
Speaker 1: by the way, I never actually got to the in
Speaker 1: front of the judge. I've always been dismissed beforehand before that.
Speaker 1: But it's, uh, it's one of these things where like
Speaker 1: you feel like you need to serve because like you
Speaker 1: want to do your patriotic duty, but like, oh fuck me,
Speaker 1: like I really do not want to serve on.
Speaker 3: I'd be a good juror. I'm telling you that, man,
Speaker 3: I would.
Speaker 1: All right, everyone, did you hear that? Bring Nate back?
Speaker 3: So you know I.
Speaker 2: Got four years now I'm off, I guess, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I know did so? Would you say it was a
Speaker 2: successful World series for you? Because I wouldn't say that
Speaker 2: about my World series?
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, My my World series was awful.
Speaker 1: I'm down a lot. You know. It's still not the end.
Speaker 1: We have one more, we have one more event and
Speaker 1: then the two fake online events to play. But I'm
Speaker 1: down a lot. I haven't finished my equity calculations mate
Speaker 1: for our bet. Well we'll sum that up for next week.
Speaker 1: But I think that I'm winning our bet. Unfortunately, as
Speaker 1: you and I have discussed, you know, yesterday was a
Speaker 1: pretty great example of that. It's basically how my whole
Speaker 1: summer's been going. You know, get in aces against pocket
Speaker 1: nines and they hit their nine and you're out. You
Speaker 1: know that that's basically you know, that's that's the types
Speaker 1: of equity flips that I've been in. And those aren't flips, right,
Speaker 1: those are the situations where you're huge, your huge favorite,
Speaker 1: you should be winning, and I've been losing almost all
Speaker 1: of them. I've been playing well, so I actually have
Speaker 1: been able to accumulate lots of chips, and my strategy,
Speaker 1: looking at my all in history, basically since it's like
Speaker 1: lost loss loss loss loss loss loss loss, like, my
Speaker 1: strategy should be never to get all in because whenever
Speaker 1: I'm in those situations, I lose, but otherwise otherwise I
Speaker 1: do pretty damn well. So so it's been a fun
Speaker 1: it's been a funny world series, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's amusing. You have to have perspective when you
Speaker 1: see you're running that poorly. Obviously I wish I warrant,
Speaker 1: but you know, this is the moment where I'm like, damn,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't have bet six hundred and sixty six dollars.
Speaker 1: What about sixty six thousand, you know, something like that
Speaker 1: would have been better to save my summer.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that you're gonna be me. I have
Speaker 2: I've run pretty bad on all ends too. You know, also,
Speaker 2: uh like this, I mean, when you have when you
Speaker 2: have a lot of distractions, right, I'm not sure my mind.
Speaker 3: The thing I love about.
Speaker 2: The World Series and all experiences hopefully next year, right
Speaker 2: or maybe whenever I play poker next in December at
Speaker 2: the wind probably right, come to me. There's a nice
Speaker 2: feeling about being totally immersed in poker.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: All I have to do is wake up, play poker,
Speaker 2: and maybe hang out with my friends a little bit
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 3: Right, I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2: I have, like I have to wake up and like
Speaker 2: write a blog post and run the model and do
Speaker 2: five other things and return these emails and then then
Speaker 2: play poker for ten hours.
Speaker 3: It's a challenge. It's tough.
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons I think that we're both
Speaker 1: I mean that I'm so exhausted is because you know,
Speaker 1: this has not been a World Series where I've been
Speaker 1: able to focus exclusively on poker for obvious reasons, and
Speaker 1: that does matter. But you know, just breathe, breathe deep,
Speaker 1: reboot and try to think well and play well and
Speaker 1: do better next time. Now, today, of course is super turbo,
Speaker 1: so I have to run well in all ends. For
Speaker 1: people who don't play poker, what a super turbo means
Speaker 1: is the levels get very high, very quickly. So that
Speaker 1: means that you do have to get into these all
Speaker 1: in confrontations. You do have to win, you have to
Speaker 1: get lucky. Turbos are basically the highest variance Hyen's highest
Speaker 1: variance variant of poker, right because they move so incredibly quickly,
Speaker 1: So you have to run well. So maybe today my
Speaker 1: luck will completely reverse and today will be the day
Speaker 1: that I end up losing our bit.
Speaker 2: Join us next week where Wheelchairs a Poker Brace. The
Speaker 2: winner Maria Kannakova and I will talk about how she
Speaker 2: navigated her turbo way into poker glory or I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: What poker glory, poker history.
Speaker 3: I love it, poker history.
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kannakova and me
Speaker 1: Nate Silver. The show is a co production of Pushkin
Speaker 1: Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter.
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our executive producer
Speaker 1: is Jacob Goldstein.
Speaker 2: And If you want to listen to an ad free version,
Speaker 2: sign up for Pushkin Plus. For six ninety nine a month,
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