WEBVTT - Don Gehman

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Stetts Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest today is producer engineer extraordinary Don Gamon. Don,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you produce a record?

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<v Speaker 2>Bob, keep your mouth shut? That would be my first thought.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's an interesting thing because you came up as

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<v Speaker 1>an engineer. My observation in the studio is the engineer

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<v Speaker 1>has to be quiet and be more of a yes man.

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<v Speaker 1>And you became a producer. Well, switching gears to a

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<v Speaker 1>smaller question. My original question, how hard was that transition

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<v Speaker 1>going from being an engineer to producer?

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<v Speaker 2>It was difficult, it was Hm. Well, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a long story, but the tell the story. That's why

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<v Speaker 2>we're here, all right. You know. I was fortunate coming

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<v Speaker 2>from Live Sound, which is really where my beginning is

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<v Speaker 2>as an engineer, that one of my clients on the

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<v Speaker 2>road was Stephen Stills, and he took a liking to

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<v Speaker 2>me and took me to Caribou, which was a ranch

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<v Speaker 2>up in the Rocky Mountains, and I spent a month

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<v Speaker 2>with him finishing a record that he had started, and

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of it he gave me a production credit.

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<v Speaker 2>So right out of the gate I was given not

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<v Speaker 2>only engineering, but production credit. And then he turned around

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<v Speaker 2>and got me a position at the Record Plant in

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<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles and Criteria Recording in Miami and said, this

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<v Speaker 2>is your next step. So I quit my day job,

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<v Speaker 2>which was live or Live sound, and moved to Miami,

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<v Speaker 2>where I promptly stopped producing and just started engineering. And

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<v Speaker 2>really realized at that point how much I did not

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<v Speaker 2>know about making records. Stephen was a great teacher, but

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<v Speaker 2>I had so much to learn about recording techniques, operating

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<v Speaker 2>tape machines, editing. There was just a myriad of things

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<v Speaker 2>that I knew nothing about. Even though I thought, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I know everything about the equipment that I'm using, it

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<v Speaker 2>was not even close. So that process took almost ten

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<v Speaker 2>years before I got my next full on recording producing credit,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it was nineteen eighty two.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. Why did Stills take such a liking to you

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<v Speaker 1>that he would bring you from the road to the

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<v Speaker 1>studio and then give you a production credit.

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<v Speaker 2>I think probably what he saw in me the situation

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<v Speaker 2>I was on the road with Manassas, which was one

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<v Speaker 2>of Stevens' many bands after I guess that would have

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<v Speaker 2>been after his solo career and my job was I

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<v Speaker 2>was hired as a monitor system for the stage. This

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<v Speaker 2>would have been nineteen maybe seventy two, and I had

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<v Speaker 2>already been on the road since about nineteen seventy. I

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<v Speaker 2>started in sixty five, and we were brought in at

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<v Speaker 2>that time because we were the only people that actually

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<v Speaker 2>had a stage monitoring system which split out the microphones

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<v Speaker 2>on stage and that put the console on the side

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<v Speaker 2>of the stage, and that had monitors on the sides,

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<v Speaker 2>and it slants in the front and different mixes for

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<v Speaker 2>differ locations. All of that kind of thing was very,

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<v Speaker 2>very new, and I think it was what's the San Francisco.

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<v Speaker 2>He had hired another production company to do the main

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<v Speaker 2>sound and lights, et cetera. So I was just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of in a dndum and so I was separate. I

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<v Speaker 2>was more noticeable because I was hired as an extra

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<v Speaker 2>and my job was to sit side of the stage

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<v Speaker 2>and take all the heat as things get that back

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<v Speaker 2>and they couldn't hear themselves, and it was a very tense,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple hours while you're trying to make

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<v Speaker 2>it through the show without glares coming from Stephen. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think I withstood the heat really well, is what

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<v Speaker 2>it was. And there was a day, especially bad day,

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<v Speaker 2>that I was really having trouble with some whistling and

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<v Speaker 2>the monitor. Steven kept on looking over at me during

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<v Speaker 2>the set, you know, like get it louder, I can't

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<v Speaker 2>hear myself, And finally, in a rage, he just turns

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<v Speaker 2>and throws a drumstick at me from you know, mid

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<v Speaker 2>mid stage to the side, and I caught it and

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<v Speaker 2>threw it back at him. And I think that was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of the beginning of our relationship, was this you know,

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<v Speaker 2>willingness to be straight up and he appreciated that. And

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<v Speaker 2>shortly after that time we did Michael John Bowen, who

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<v Speaker 2>was his manager at the time ex Marine wonderful man

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<v Speaker 2>who's since deceased, put together a tour that he thought

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<v Speaker 2>we could be much more efficient touring if we did

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<v Speaker 2>it from central locations, and he wanted to do it

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<v Speaker 2>from Boulder, where Steven had a house up in Golden

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<v Speaker 2>and do shows that were you know, three five hundred

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<v Speaker 2>mile drives from that location. And so he wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>build a semi that had two levels in it where

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<v Speaker 2>we could put a lighting trust on the first floor

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<v Speaker 2>and then all of the band's equipment and sound equipment

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<v Speaker 2>on the second and I was the driver, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I took on a role as a stage manager, truck driver,

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<v Speaker 2>mixing engineer for about a year before this all happened

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<v Speaker 2>with the studio stuff. So that's just one little piece

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<v Speaker 2>of my that's actually the end of my recording.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, I got a lot of questions. Don't you

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<v Speaker 1>need a license to drive a truck?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah you do, But you know, I wasn't driving for money,

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<v Speaker 2>and so there's this exception with Class C licenses, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is what they're called, or at least maybe that's

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<v Speaker 2>what was called in Pennsylvania, which is where I was from. Anyhow,

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<v Speaker 2>I had fortunately a West Coast driver who was our

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<v Speaker 2>driver on the Manassas Tour, a lovely guy, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>career semi driver who I rode with for probably a

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<v Speaker 2>year before I did it myself, and he taught me

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<v Speaker 2>all the ins and outs of proper breaking technique, coming

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<v Speaker 2>down the grapevine and losing your brakes, you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>of that kind of stuff. That was so, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>of course important.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, how hard is it to drive a semi?

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<v Speaker 2>It's not it's hard. There's a lot of technique, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of keeping it in a very narrow rpm

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<v Speaker 2>range regardless of your speed. The diesel engine doesn't like

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<v Speaker 2>revving up and revving down. It was just sit right

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<v Speaker 2>in a little three hundred rpm window. The transmissions are

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<v Speaker 2>usually thirteen speed, and you learn to shift them without

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<v Speaker 2>using the clutch. You do it all with. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>number like twenty one hundred RPMs where it will slide

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<v Speaker 2>from one gear to the next, and it's very fluid.

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<v Speaker 2>It almost feels like an automatic transmission when it's done properly,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can go up and down the gear ranges

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<v Speaker 2>like that. Backing up is a whole another thing that

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<v Speaker 2>backing up is like, and especially at the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>venues we were playing, and we had built a trailer

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<v Speaker 2>that was eleven foot high instead of the normal like

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<v Speaker 2>I think thirteen maybe or so that we could get

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<v Speaker 2>in these venues and get in closer. We didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to have to roll stuff, you know, blocks away, so

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<v Speaker 2>backing in curved backing. I still look back at and think,

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<v Speaker 2>how in the world did I do that and get

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<v Speaker 2>away with it?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay? There were two Minassas albums. It was the double

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<v Speaker 1>album in seventy two was subsequent single album the double

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<v Speaker 1>album was one of the great products of all time.

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<v Speaker 1>You've seen a million bands. How hot was Manassas live?

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<v Speaker 2>They had great nights? Uh yeah. A lot of it

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<v Speaker 2>dependent on how on Stephen was, you know, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was material sometimes it was, but you know, the arrangements

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<v Speaker 2>were amazing. Stephen is to this day. I just amazed

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<v Speaker 2>at his ability as as a writer, a producer and arranger.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, those songs were just so well put together.

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<v Speaker 2>And what we carried on the road was everything that

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<v Speaker 2>was on the record. It was the same band, and

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, it could sound amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you know he's a public figure. Didn't you work

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<v Speaker 1>with him for so long? What does the average person

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<v Speaker 1>not know about? Stephen still's.

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<v Speaker 2>Shy you know about I don't know that I can

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<v Speaker 2>speak to it that well. I saw him about a

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<v Speaker 2>month ago. I hadn't seen him for probably twenty five years.

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<v Speaker 2>I did see him. No, No, that's wrong. I saw him

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<v Speaker 2>at the Buffalo Springfield concert here in town. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Andy Summers took me and I'm going to say it

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<v Speaker 2>was probably four years ago, but I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 1>The Buffalo Springfield I think was twenty eleven.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it wasn't that long ago. They've played at the

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<v Speaker 2>Wiltern or.

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<v Speaker 1>Whatever you saw not important. You saw him at the

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<v Speaker 1>Buffalo Springfield Show, and you know, I said hello, but

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<v Speaker 1>we haven't spent any time where we've sat down and talked.

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<v Speaker 2>I did see him at the bookstore in Studio City

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<v Speaker 2>just a month ago and walked up to him and

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<v Speaker 2>kind of surprised him. You know, hello, it's Don Gamon.

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<v Speaker 2>He took one look at me and said, wow, we've

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<v Speaker 2>gotten old. And then we talked, and you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>talked about how happy he was and how different life

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<v Speaker 2>was for him right now compared to you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>last twenty five years, and that, yeah, he seemed like

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<v Speaker 2>he was in a really good place. And we exchanged

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<v Speaker 2>numbers again and said that we're going to get together.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, before that, when I was working at Criteria,

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<v Speaker 2>I would probably there was a record that I did

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<v Speaker 2>in like seventy five was Neil and Steven together, And

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<v Speaker 2>it's probably the last time I spent significant time with him.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that's a legendary record. Long may you run? Because

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<v Speaker 1>I believe the first dates were in Florida. Stills flew

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<v Speaker 1>down and then Neil Young sent a telegram saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>essentially I'm out.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's kind of the story. I can give you

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<v Speaker 2>the actual, the more complete story. Actually. The thing that's

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<v Speaker 2>remarkable about this, it says so much about both of them,

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<v Speaker 2>is that they put together. We're going to make a

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<v Speaker 2>record together, just Steven and I and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>come in a couple of weeks before we're going to start,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just want to get acclimated. So Neil comes

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<v Speaker 2>in town and promptly buys like a fifty foot old

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<v Speaker 2>junker wooden boat, as Neil would, and parks it in

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<v Speaker 2>Coconut Grove in the Marina and starts to write the

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<v Speaker 2>songs for the album. And so his pre production was

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<v Speaker 2>I'm coming to town to get the flavor and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to write the album here right now, which he did.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Steven shows up probably a day before we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to start, and he checks in the best hotel

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<v Speaker 2>in town, and and then we go in the studio

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<v Speaker 2>and Steven's got a couple of songs I've been sitting

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<v Speaker 2>around for a while, and then he's got a few

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<v Speaker 2>more that he's not finished, and Neil's all ready to go,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we record the record, and it's going really well,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a it's a good band, mostly Stevens players

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<v Speaker 2>from Midasses, and uh, all of a sudden, David and

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<v Speaker 2>Graham show up. And there hadn't been a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the four of them together, Uh, you know, probably for

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't know that it was a while.

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<v Speaker 2>And they show up and everybody's getting along really great,

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<v Speaker 2>having a wonderful time. And I'm not sure who invited,

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<v Speaker 2>but somebody said, why don't you sing on this song?

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<v Speaker 2>And so the David and Graham go out and sing

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<v Speaker 2>background so on one of the songs, and then it

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<v Speaker 2>turned into three songs, and then five songs, and then

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<v Speaker 2>now there's talk of why don't we record one of

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<v Speaker 2>David's songs in one of Graham's songs, and oh, now

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<v Speaker 2>we're making a CSNY record, and the the vibe all

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<v Speaker 2>of a sudden. I don't think I even realized it

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<v Speaker 2>until it was habitual that every morning at nine o'clock,

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<v Speaker 2>Neil would call me at home and say, this is

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<v Speaker 2>what I'd like to do today. Can you get this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff up? We'll do this overdub, we'll look at this.

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<v Speaker 2>And he called me at nine o'clock this morning, and

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<v Speaker 2>he said, Hey, I'm in Zuma and I go Zuma.

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<v Speaker 2>He says, yeah, I'm here in Zuma. I flew out

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<v Speaker 2>last night. And isn't Zuma on the West coast and

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<v Speaker 2>he says yes, yeah. He says, you know, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>really happy with the way things have been going. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not what you know, Steve and I said we were

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<v Speaker 2>going to do. So, you know, would you just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of go in there and, you know, clean up the tracks,

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<v Speaker 2>put things back the way it was before, David and Graham,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, put their vocals on it. And then when

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<v Speaker 2>you get all that done, give me a call. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>come back and we'll finish the record.

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<v Speaker 1>And then what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what we did. I cleaned it up.

0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, did you put all that stuff in there? What

0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.560
<v Speaker 1>did Stephen, Graham and David say about what Neil said?

0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't remember there was any discussion. It

0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>was just you know, or maybe I was withheld from

0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 2>what that might have been. But all I knew was

0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that the next time we were back in the studio

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 2>it was just Steven and Neil again.

0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.200
<v Speaker 1>But going to the next step a tour was guard

0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.720
<v Speaker 1>did or booked, excuse me, and Neil was booked and

0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 1>ultimately he did not go out. Can you tell us

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:09.240
<v Speaker 1>anything about that?

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.080
<v Speaker 2>No, Honestly, I don't even recall that, but I'm sure

0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.920
<v Speaker 2>you're right. That's something you'll have to kind of bear

0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.800
<v Speaker 2>with me, Bob. There's there are giant holes that. Honestly,

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:22.880
<v Speaker 2>I look to other people that it might have been

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:28.160
<v Speaker 2>there for their recollection, you know. I know that shortly

0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.960
<v Speaker 2>after that, all four of them did get together, and

0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:32.760
<v Speaker 2>then I went out on the road. I recalled doing

0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.400
<v Speaker 2>shows in like Wimbley Stadium. I took my leave from

0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Criteria to go Douche and I only think it was

0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.800
<v Speaker 2>one show, but there might have been more that the

0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:42.800
<v Speaker 2>four of them did together.

0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You're from where.

0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Lancaster, Pennsylvania, Okay.

0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Home of the Pennsylvania Dutch. When you are in Lancaster, Pennsylvania,

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.960
<v Speaker 1>because now Lydditz, which is right in that area, is

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:05.879
<v Speaker 1>the epicenter of live music, staging audio. Was there anything

0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.440
<v Speaker 1>like that there when you were growing up? No?

0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, then the Claire brothers, the two brothers lived in Lettitts.

0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're growing up is there music in the house.

0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.639
<v Speaker 1>How do you become infected with music?

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess my story is that, you know, probably

0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.040
<v Speaker 2>in third grade I was I wanted to join the orchestra,

0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.080
<v Speaker 2>and the orchestra director said to me, I need a violist.

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.000
<v Speaker 2>You're going to play viola very typical way that things

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:47.400
<v Speaker 2>people learn instruments. So I start practicing in viola, taking lessons.

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.080
<v Speaker 2>I do that for many years, eventually become like first

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:56.879
<v Speaker 2>chair in the district of Blancaster County Orchestra. So I

0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 2>was a decent violist. But right around nineteen sixty four

0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:10.080
<v Speaker 2>sixty three, the Beatles came along and I started letting

0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 2>my hair grow a little longer. And in those days,

0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:14.399
<v Speaker 2>because I was on the swimming team, you had to

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>have it above your ears and above your forehead and

0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.960
<v Speaker 2>all these kind of hair rules. And my father, who

0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:27.440
<v Speaker 2>was recovering Mennonite, did not like me letting my hair

0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.680
<v Speaker 2>grow either, And basically I got thrown out an orchestra,

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 2>even though I was a decent player, because the orchestra

0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.919
<v Speaker 2>conductor did not like the fact that I was getting

0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:45.000
<v Speaker 2>interested in rock music. And what happened was I got

0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.120
<v Speaker 2>together with a trombone player and we formed a rock band.

0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:57.280
<v Speaker 2>The rock band needed equipment, especially vocal equipment.

0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Let's stop late, wait, let's stop, let's stop right. Your

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:05.040
<v Speaker 1>father was a recovering Mennonite. Tell me a little bit

0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 1>more about that.

0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, the my father was raised as a Mennonite,

0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.440
<v Speaker 2>and which is kind of the origins of the Amish.

0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.520
<v Speaker 2>The Amish kind of breakaway from the Mennonites. And what

0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:24.320
<v Speaker 2>happened was during World War Two. The Mennonites are conscientious subjectors.

0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 2>They they do not believe in going to war and

0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.520
<v Speaker 2>qualify as I think as four F or whatever the

0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.800
<v Speaker 2>classification is. That's that my father disagreed with the Mennonites.

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:42.800
<v Speaker 2>He is a conscientious subjector and reverse and left the religion,

0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:48.600
<v Speaker 2>joined the Presbyterian Church and joined the army. And so

0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:51.800
<v Speaker 2>I guess the point of all this I'm making is

0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:57.200
<v Speaker 2>that I grew up with a very conservative father who

0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.879
<v Speaker 2>church going, very active. That that was something I was

0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:08.200
<v Speaker 2>around a lot, and moving more into the the rock

0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.320
<v Speaker 2>music scene and the whole Beatles thing was I'm sure

0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:17.840
<v Speaker 2>very you know, just distant from what their experience was.

0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 2>But nevertheless, he allowed me to pursue it, and that

0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:30.840
<v Speaker 2>entailed initially as the rock band. I knew I couldn't

0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 2>afford to buy an AMP, and so I went about trying.

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh wait, wait, wait, wait, I don't want to get

0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.800
<v Speaker 1>to I want to stop you once again. Was your

0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:42.840
<v Speaker 1>mother a Mennonite?

0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.600
<v Speaker 2>No, no she was. I don't even know what church,

0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 2>probably another Presbyterian kind of church, you know, But no

0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:51.879
<v Speaker 2>she was not.

0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.640
<v Speaker 1>And then since your father left the Men in Knight,

0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.800
<v Speaker 1>didn't he have relatives? Did you have contact with him?

0:20:58.840 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Not?

0:20:59.080 --> 0:20:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Contact with him?

0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:02.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but not a lot. I mean I can remember

0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.720
<v Speaker 2>going to family reunions where there'd be there might be

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.320
<v Speaker 2>some horses and buggies in the front yard, you know,

0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.880
<v Speaker 2>because there was definitely a cross pollination of this stuff.

0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.560
<v Speaker 2>I had many uncles and aunts that were Gamings, but

0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 2>we weren't close with any of them. I had a

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.800
<v Speaker 2>grandmother who was Mennonite and who was an incredible cook

0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.440
<v Speaker 2>that would see often on Sundays and she'd make these

0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 2>giant meals, and she wore you know what you would

0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.520
<v Speaker 2>think of men andite woman wears very conservative you know,

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:41.280
<v Speaker 2>play dress. And same with my grandfather. Yeah, okay.

0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.159
<v Speaker 1>One of the big things in Lancaster is scrapple. Is

0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 1>that a Mennonite. Is that a Mennonite thing or is

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:49.359
<v Speaker 1>that just a regional thing.

0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:54.560
<v Speaker 2>That's probably mennnight. Yeah, it's one of the many things

0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.919
<v Speaker 2>that all cultures do with leftovers, right, grind things up

0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.960
<v Speaker 2>and mix them with some a grain, smother it with

0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.320
<v Speaker 2>maple syrup. Yeah, I actually missed that.

0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how many kids in the family.

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Just one sister?

0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 1>And what she would her life turn out to be?

0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.679
<v Speaker 2>She became a second grade teacher and pretty much her

0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:20.280
<v Speaker 2>whole life.

0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're leaning towards electronics. So in school, were you

0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:26.160
<v Speaker 1>good with science?

0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I was was very good with pretty much. I'm

0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.120
<v Speaker 2>a decent school person, especially once I got into junior high.

0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.399
<v Speaker 2>I had a closet in the basement. Believe it or not,

0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:45.080
<v Speaker 2>that would be from one hobby to the next, chemistry, photography, biology,

0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>butterfly net's dissecting stuff, to the point that in like

0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:52.600
<v Speaker 2>seventh grade, I think the science teacher got me a

0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:57.119
<v Speaker 2>college course in invertebrates, and I had a shark and

0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:59.240
<v Speaker 2>a cat and all this stuff that I could dissect

0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.879
<v Speaker 2>that was kind of on the side. So at the

0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.680
<v Speaker 2>time I was thinking about medicine, I was I might

0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:08.840
<v Speaker 2>want to be a doctor. I liked all this stuff

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and it's probably well suited for it until the rock

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.120
<v Speaker 2>and roll thing came along and that just blew everything up.

0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you were playing the viola. You talk about organizing

0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.160
<v Speaker 1>a band. What I mean, Jerry Goodman played the violin

0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:31.520
<v Speaker 1>in the flock. But what was your instrument in the band?

0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Bass?

0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:36.919
<v Speaker 1>And how did you learn how to play the bass?

0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:41.680
<v Speaker 2>Very badly? I was a horrible bass player. I looked

0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.840
<v Speaker 2>back at it with total regret. But it wasn't a

0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>great bass. It was a national bass, short neck, not

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:53.720
<v Speaker 2>a very great tone. I built my own amp out of.

0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, well this is where this is. That's where you

0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 1>were going. Yeah, you had the bass, and of course

0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:04.160
<v Speaker 1>the bass requires Okay, I'll ask you. You're the big expert.

0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.240
<v Speaker 1>Why do you need a specific base amp.

0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:13.000
<v Speaker 2>You needed big speakers, you know, the biggest ones they make,

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:16.040
<v Speaker 2>so that the base takes more for you know, more power.

0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>It needs more surface area. I wanted basically a Fender basement,

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, it would been what I wanted. The best

0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:26.919
<v Speaker 2>bass player in town had a Fender basement, and he

0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.800
<v Speaker 2>was with a Fender base and he was great. I

0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.520
<v Speaker 2>was not great, But I needed a good base amp.

0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.119
<v Speaker 2>And at the time I was also very interested in woodworking,

0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:41.159
<v Speaker 2>and I had bought my own table salt, which I

0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:44.160
<v Speaker 2>set up in the garage, and so I was building

0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:47.199
<v Speaker 2>my own speaker cabinets and I copied them like the fenders,

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:51.480
<v Speaker 2>with vinyl coverings and corners and pretty groklaw looked exactly

0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 2>like a Fender basement. Actually, as far as an amp goes,

0:24:55.840 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 2>it performed well. But that process I'm going through that.

0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.320
<v Speaker 1>Wait, okay, it's one thing to build the speaker cabinet.

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:06.920
<v Speaker 1>I think you had two fifteen's in a Fender basement.

0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:10.480
<v Speaker 1>How the hell did you build the amplifier you did?

0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 2>There was these things called Dina kits oh yeah, if

0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:19.920
<v Speaker 2>you recall the oh yeah, and they sold like a

0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:26.159
<v Speaker 2>thirty five watt amp, you know, power amp tubes. And

0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:28.480
<v Speaker 2>then they had a little pre app to had a

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 2>phonograph premp in it that had an ox position on it.

0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:34.040
<v Speaker 2>And so I built those two things, and then I

0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 2>modified the inputs that would take a guitar jack and

0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that was that. I mean, it was basically the same

0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:44.199
<v Speaker 2>stuff that's in a Fender basement. I just didn't have

0:25:44.240 --> 0:25:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the overdrive capability, which on a bass, you don't really

0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:47.240
<v Speaker 2>need that much.

0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:51.080
<v Speaker 1>But okay, so you're in the band, you're playing the bass,

0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:55.640
<v Speaker 1>you've built your own imitation bass man. What happens next.

0:25:56.800 --> 0:26:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, we needed a vocal system. So the next step

0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>was to go to the local Lancaster parts store where

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 2>they sell everything that unique speaker parts. And I'm down

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:14.840
<v Speaker 2>there looking about maybe buying some speakers, and I run

0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:17.919
<v Speaker 2>to this Guy's name is Jean Claire, and he's the

0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:21.359
<v Speaker 2>working in the parts store, and I told him what

0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing, and he says, you know, my brother and

0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I we run a little business on the side making

0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:32.800
<v Speaker 2>vocal monitors for churches, and we need somebody that could

0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:35.400
<v Speaker 2>maybe crank out these vocal columns. Would you be interested,

0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:38.080
<v Speaker 2>and we'll help you out with the stuff you're looking for,

0:26:38.720 --> 0:26:41.320
<v Speaker 2>and you know, maybe you can use that for your band.

0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:44.879
<v Speaker 2>And so basically I started as a cabinet maker for

0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:49.760
<v Speaker 2>these two brothers building these church vocal columns, you know,

0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:52.399
<v Speaker 2>like a sure vocal column. They are basically copies of

0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:55.600
<v Speaker 2>the six eight inch speakers. I think it was in

0:26:55.680 --> 0:27:01.359
<v Speaker 2>a stack and any So that was the beginning of

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.320
<v Speaker 2>my relationship with Claire. And at the time they had

0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:09.480
<v Speaker 2>a two car garage in Lititz where they built their stuff,

0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 2>and then I had my garage in Lancaster and it

0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:21.040
<v Speaker 2>grew very quickly from that to a point where we

0:27:21.040 --> 0:27:25.000
<v Speaker 2>were building stuff to do live shows at Franklin and

0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:29.040
<v Speaker 2>Marshall College for the bands that were coming through, booked

0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 2>by the by the people there.

0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you graduate from high school and you go right

0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:41.119
<v Speaker 1>into making these cabinets or what happened?

0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.200
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, this is all. I was fifteen. This

0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:49.600
<v Speaker 2>is long before graduating. I was fifteen when I was

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:53.000
<v Speaker 2>The next generation speaker was an A seven, which is

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:57.800
<v Speaker 2>an altech lancing voice of the theater. It's a monstrous

0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:00.800
<v Speaker 2>box with a horn and a wolfer and a horn.

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:05.119
<v Speaker 2>Hard to build, by the way, because it's got curved

0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:10.359
<v Speaker 2>wood in it, but we built two of those and

0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:13.639
<v Speaker 2>we're using it at Franklin and Marshall. I think the

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.520
<v Speaker 2>first time we used it was maybe Peter Poul and

0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:20.879
<v Speaker 2>Mary came through and we added some stuff for them,

0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:27.639
<v Speaker 2>and then fortuitously the Four Seasons came through town and

0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:31.000
<v Speaker 2>we set that up for them, and they really liked

0:28:31.080 --> 0:28:34.760
<v Speaker 2>roy and decided to hire roy On to go on

0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:39.959
<v Speaker 2>the road with them permanently. And then so that I

0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:44.320
<v Speaker 2>think he was a shop teacher at the time and

0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:47.600
<v Speaker 2>he quit his teaching job and this is all well,

0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:51.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm still I mean, I can remember driving to Atlantic

0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:54.240
<v Speaker 2>City to do shows with the Supremes and the Four

0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:58.160
<v Speaker 2>Tops on the boardwalk and driving a cor of Air

0:28:58.240 --> 0:29:04.200
<v Speaker 2>van on a learners permit, and that was kind of

0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:09.560
<v Speaker 2>my beginning with live sound. And the systems were very rudimentary.

0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:14.040
<v Speaker 2>I think we had maybe four microphones and I don't

0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:16.560
<v Speaker 2>even know what we use for power amp, probably something horrible,

0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:19.760
<v Speaker 2>but it was better than what most people were offering.

0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:25.320
<v Speaker 2>It was a real infancy for what sound was. And

0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:32.880
<v Speaker 2>but we grew so fast during that time, moving into

0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.240
<v Speaker 2>building our own consoles and then eventually partnering up with

0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:40.880
<v Speaker 2>the newest people that were building transistor power amps, and

0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:42.479
<v Speaker 2>then we were off to the races.

0:29:42.640 --> 0:29:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're working at Franklin and Marshall, the local college.

0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:48.160
<v Speaker 1>How do you get a gig in Atlantic City?

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:53.960
<v Speaker 2>Four seasons I think was the ticket that got us out.

0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:56.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, they were seeing us on the road, or

0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:01.440
<v Speaker 2>not me, but Roy with his setup for them, and

0:30:01.520 --> 0:30:04.800
<v Speaker 2>it worked. And so we go through and often it

0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 2>would be the promoters like Philadelphia, Larry Maggott and the

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Speedback Brothers. You know, we became close with them, the

0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:17.440
<v Speaker 2>Belkans in Cleveland so quickly. You know, the promoters knew

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.040
<v Speaker 2>that they could get sound equipment that worked for these

0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 2>bands that had nothing, because production wasn't something that bands,

0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, carried at that time. It just came in.

0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:39.720
<v Speaker 1>Ultimately, you know, from an outside viewpoint, there's Clear Brothers

0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:44.520
<v Speaker 1>and Showco. When Clear was starting and starting to gain traction,

0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:49.080
<v Speaker 1>was there any competition or was it just a regional business?

0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:49.960
<v Speaker 1>What was going on?

0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was Mannis. It was a Boston company that

0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:06.120
<v Speaker 2>was quite large. They were using the eight foot tall

0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>movie theater straight horn I forget, the model number two

0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:16.200
<v Speaker 2>ten Altech I don't remember, and the multicellular Altech lancing

0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:23.480
<v Speaker 2>horns that were monstrous. And then they had semis and

0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>the dance floor. They are in the front of the

0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:29.760
<v Speaker 2>semi that's up on top of the tree. They had

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:34.960
<v Speaker 2>built racks of Macintosh to power amplifiers and that was

0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:39.040
<v Speaker 2>how they built the first really big systems. And not

0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:42.719
<v Speaker 2>many people I don't even know who was using that stuff.

0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:47.000
<v Speaker 2>It was at the big gigs. But we were opportunists,

0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:49.680
<v Speaker 2>right at that moment we realized we could build a

0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 2>better base enclosure, and we came up with a rebuild

0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:58.120
<v Speaker 2>of a W box which was just about as big

0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:04.560
<v Speaker 2>two fifteens, weighed probably five hundred pounds. It was ridiculous,

0:32:05.000 --> 0:32:07.680
<v Speaker 2>and we had systems very quickly that were four of

0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:13.800
<v Speaker 2>those cabinets and the two by five cellular horns with

0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:20.000
<v Speaker 2>double throated drivers on the back, pretty loud, and we'd

0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 2>stack those up on the side of stage. I remember

0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:25.080
<v Speaker 2>doing Iron Butterfly shows with a system like that, and

0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 2>it actually worked pretty well a great low end. There

0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:33.040
<v Speaker 2>was probably a three hundred watt system tops, but what

0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:38.640
<v Speaker 2>we were using before was probably sixty. So yeah, already

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 2>were off to the races. And what happened was McManus,

0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:45.240
<v Speaker 2>which was the big company that had acts signed up

0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:50.120
<v Speaker 2>for production. We bit by bit started stealing their clients.

0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:52.040
<v Speaker 2>I think Bloitzweat and Tears might have been one of

0:32:52.040 --> 0:33:01.320
<v Speaker 2>the first ones. Iron Butterfly were the West Coast companies

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:06.400
<v Speaker 2>that were was it Osley? Which guy is that that's

0:33:06.440 --> 0:33:07.560
<v Speaker 2>the one who's the.

0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:11.800
<v Speaker 1>About the LSD king with the grateful.

0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:16.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but I think that one of these guys

0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:21.080
<v Speaker 2>was the was the brains behind the grateful deads sound.

0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:24.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, he really understood time alignment and all this stuff.

0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:27.200
<v Speaker 2>It was a whole different concept. Those people were some

0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:36.719
<v Speaker 2>sort of competition, uh certainly inspiration for their technology. Yeah, No,

0:33:36.800 --> 0:33:39.320
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of competition. But what we had

0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.040
<v Speaker 2>going for us was that we were very light on

0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:45.520
<v Speaker 2>our feet and we had this company in California called

0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:50.000
<v Speaker 2>SAE that was building a three hundred watt transistor app

0:33:50.040 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 2>that was uh road worthy, And we started racking those

0:33:54.240 --> 0:33:56.760
<v Speaker 2>things up and all of a sudden we were off

0:33:56.800 --> 0:33:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to the races and much louder.

0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:02.280
<v Speaker 1>Because the say he ended up being a consumer brand too.

0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.320
<v Speaker 1>Uh huh. So, right, how do you go from building

0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:11.640
<v Speaker 1>speakers and amplifiers to mixers desks? You know, that's a

0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:14.279
<v Speaker 1>totally different I mean they're all connected, but it's a

0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:14.959
<v Speaker 1>different thing.

0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It was exciting, you know. For for me, I

0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>was kind of in the throes of what am I

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:25.600
<v Speaker 2>going to do with my life as a seventeen eighteen

0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:28.919
<v Speaker 2>year old And at that point, you know, my parents

0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:32.160
<v Speaker 2>are disappointed that didn't look so good for the medical career,

0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:34.480
<v Speaker 2>and I would saying, what do I do that's going

0:34:34.560 --> 0:34:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to be able to further this career that I'm really loving,

0:34:37.080 --> 0:34:40.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, the combination of music and electronics and invention

0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:45.560
<v Speaker 2>and and so I thought, well, I'll go to Penn

0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:50.360
<v Speaker 2>State try and get an electrical engineering degree, and I applied.

0:34:50.880 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>I got in. On a side note, they gave me

0:34:56.920 --> 0:34:59.040
<v Speaker 2>an interest test I think it was called the Smith

0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:03.279
<v Speaker 2>interest test when I was admitted, and it was kind

0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:06.720
<v Speaker 2>of a precursor to whether or not you would succeed

0:35:07.000 --> 0:35:10.200
<v Speaker 2>at what you were pursuing. And there was also the

0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:13.400
<v Speaker 2>test were dim. They gave me a fifteen percent chance

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:18.680
<v Speaker 2>of passing as an electrical engineer, and I like a

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:23.480
<v Speaker 2>ninety five percent chance as a psychologist and a ninety

0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:27.239
<v Speaker 2>percent as a musical arranger. So I mean, I don't

0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:29.680
<v Speaker 2>know that I really took it to heart at the time,

0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:32.319
<v Speaker 2>But of course, now looking back at it, they were right,

0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:36.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, because I still am not a great I

0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:40.239
<v Speaker 2>understand technical things really well. I'm not an inventor like

0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:43.720
<v Speaker 2>people that we eventually hired that built all this stuff.

0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:49.160
<v Speaker 2>But I was a better mixer. I understood the music intrinsically.

0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Sitting in an orchestra had its effect, you know. I

0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:55.560
<v Speaker 2>understood counter melodies and where parts need to be featured

0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:57.800
<v Speaker 2>and all that kind of stuff. It just came naturally.

0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:02.400
<v Speaker 2>And so as we got more and more of the

0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:05.680
<v Speaker 2>stage miked up and you had daters for drums and

0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:09.719
<v Speaker 2>bass and guitars and everything there you need, somebody then

0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:12.840
<v Speaker 2>understood what the music was. And most people were not

0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:19.400
<v Speaker 2>carrying their own mixers, so that became another element. Anyhow,

0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:23.200
<v Speaker 2>I wound up at Penn State and I lasted I

0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:27.399
<v Speaker 2>don't know, ten weeks twenty weeks before I quit and

0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.360
<v Speaker 2>moved into their technical program at a local community campus

0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:34.480
<v Speaker 2>and did two years and then went on the road.

0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:38.239
<v Speaker 2>And I was on the road all through college. I'd

0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:40.760
<v Speaker 2>go to classes Monday through Friday and then drive home

0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:43.120
<v Speaker 2>to let us pick up a truck and go out

0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:43.680
<v Speaker 2>for the weekend.

0:36:44.640 --> 0:36:47.759
<v Speaker 1>Okay, one of the Claire brothers goes out with the

0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Four Seasons. Does he come back or does he continue

0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:52.640
<v Speaker 1>to go on the road.

0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean there was scheduling like anything else. You know,

0:36:57.320 --> 0:36:59.799
<v Speaker 2>he'd be out with the Four Seasons for you know,

0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:02.160
<v Speaker 2>two months while they do the summer tour or whatever,

0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:04.600
<v Speaker 2>and then he'd have some time off. And very quickly

0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:09.799
<v Speaker 2>it became you know, I think Jane would be out

0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:12.839
<v Speaker 2>on the road with his set of acts. I had

0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:19.520
<v Speaker 2>mine after college, probably nineteen seventy. I had logans of Messina,

0:37:20.560 --> 0:37:26.840
<v Speaker 2>the James Gang, Stephen Stills. Yes, those were kind of

0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:31.359
<v Speaker 2>my acts that would rotate. There'd be scheduling things where

0:37:31.360 --> 0:37:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I'd have to cover for one of Jean's or Deane

0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:35.920
<v Speaker 2>would cover for one of mine. But generally speaking, we

0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:41.080
<v Speaker 2>all had sets of acts that were are our domain.

0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you have the clear brothers, then you're the

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:48.040
<v Speaker 1>third person. Do they cut you in on ownership?

0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:53.279
<v Speaker 2>You know? And never? Yes, they always talked about it.

0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:56.600
<v Speaker 2>It was kind of what happened more than anything, I

0:37:56.640 --> 0:38:01.480
<v Speaker 2>think in all fairness, is that I started to realized

0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:06.000
<v Speaker 2>that this was like within a year, probably two years

0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:10.239
<v Speaker 2>after being out of college, that living on the road

0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:13.120
<v Speaker 2>like this was not what I wanted to do. The

0:38:13.200 --> 0:38:14.520
<v Speaker 2>last year I was on the road, I did three

0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:17.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty one night ers and I drove two

0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:20.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand miles and we didn't have a bus. I

0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:25.080
<v Speaker 2>did the driving and it nearly I mean, I was

0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:28.080
<v Speaker 2>in a truck accident I should have died where the

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.319
<v Speaker 2>guy that was driving fell asleep. There was those kind

0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.440
<v Speaker 2>of things that were happening at that time in nineteen

0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:37.800
<v Speaker 2>seventy two, where I think that's when the production really

0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:41.759
<v Speaker 2>turned and everybody started to realize that. It's probably when

0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:44.400
<v Speaker 2>the ticket prices started to go up because they started

0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:51.239
<v Speaker 2>to spend money on tour buses and proper semi drivers.

0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Everything became what we see today on a small scale.

0:38:56.640 --> 0:39:00.359
<v Speaker 2>And so I by the time nineteen seventy Tree came

0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:03.839
<v Speaker 2>around and Stephen had given me this offer of doing

0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:07.479
<v Speaker 2>some studio work, it was like a godsend. It was like, oh, yes,

0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:08.319
<v Speaker 2>this is what I love.

0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:12.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when you left the road, how many people were

0:39:12.160 --> 0:39:15.719
<v Speaker 1>working for Clear Brothers.

0:39:16.920 --> 0:39:20.520
<v Speaker 2>Maybe twenty twenty five. We had already gone through two

0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:25.520
<v Speaker 2>generations of I think when I left we had a

0:39:25.560 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 2>six stocks semi warehouse with a wood shop, of painting

0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.640
<v Speaker 2>booth and electronics shop. We were building our own consoles

0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:37.319
<v Speaker 2>or own speakers or own packaging. It was a big

0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:40.640
<v Speaker 2>operation in by seventy three. And of course that's nothing

0:39:40.680 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 2>compared to the city of Litits and whatever they call it,

0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Rock of something. When I look, I haven't never I've

0:39:47.600 --> 0:39:51.000
<v Speaker 2>never been there. But when I see what happened out

0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:54.319
<v Speaker 2>of what we created, it's pretty cool.

0:39:54.680 --> 0:40:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Tay Towers production. Physical production is also there. Okay, you're

0:40:01.560 --> 0:40:06.759
<v Speaker 1>on the road with all those acts. A in retrospect,

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.320
<v Speaker 1>although it is fifty years ago, it seems like yesterday.

0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:14.439
<v Speaker 1>How good were those systems compared to the systems of today?

0:40:14.480 --> 0:40:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it was a joke, just on the level of

0:40:20.040 --> 0:40:23.080
<v Speaker 2>how loud they were and how far they would penetrate

0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:26.839
<v Speaker 2>into a room. I mean, the system I took on

0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the road with the James guy was four speakers. That

0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:34.239
<v Speaker 2>had I had eight fifteen inch speakers, eight in four

0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:41.160
<v Speaker 2>ten minutes, and I had I had maybe six seventy

0:40:41.160 --> 0:40:44.200
<v Speaker 2>what JBL drivers for the mid range, and then about

0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:47.799
<v Speaker 2>that many for tweeters. And we would do you know,

0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:53.000
<v Speaker 2>ten thousand seats you know arenas, you know, and you'd

0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:55.239
<v Speaker 2>walk around. You could hear, I mean you could hear

0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:59.120
<v Speaker 2>there's music, but if the crowd got too excited, it

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:03.040
<v Speaker 2>overwhelmed it. I mean, we were in the Hollywood Bowl

0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:07.480
<v Speaker 2>the other night, and I'm just that might even be

0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:09.760
<v Speaker 2>a Claire system. There's a whole arm of Claire Brothers

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:12.799
<v Speaker 2>now that builds nothing but installations that are permanent. It's

0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:15.480
<v Speaker 2>almost turning to the point now where everybody realizes that

0:41:15.520 --> 0:41:17.160
<v Speaker 2>the systems are in there are great. You just bring

0:41:17.200 --> 0:41:19.680
<v Speaker 2>your own board and plug in that. I mean, it's

0:41:19.880 --> 0:41:25.520
<v Speaker 2>just there's no comparison. There's a guy that we brought

0:41:25.560 --> 0:41:28.719
<v Speaker 2>in that was part of this transition that really was

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:32.600
<v Speaker 2>the kind of another what do you call it, a catalyst.

0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:35.680
<v Speaker 2>His name is Bruce Jackson, and I don't know if

0:41:35.719 --> 0:41:41.200
<v Speaker 2>you know him. He was Australian. He died unfortunately in

0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:43.800
<v Speaker 2>a plane accident about I don't know, maybe ten or

0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:50.880
<v Speaker 2>fifteen years ago. But the brilliant, brilliant sound engineer on

0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:55.240
<v Speaker 2>the road with Springsteen for years, did so many things

0:41:55.239 --> 0:42:01.080
<v Speaker 2>that were He understood time delay, He understood how speaker

0:42:01.239 --> 0:42:04.239
<v Speaker 2>rays had to be. What we see was shape of

0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:06.480
<v Speaker 2>how these things are hung with. This guy invented all

0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.799
<v Speaker 2>of that stuff. He knew that there had to be

0:42:09.880 --> 0:42:11.880
<v Speaker 2>ways of lining up all the drivers that would all

0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:13.959
<v Speaker 2>come out together, and the same thing with you put

0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:22.440
<v Speaker 2>delay towers in all of that stuff. And he was

0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:28.040
<v Speaker 2>such a great inventor. Well, a quick story, that's funny.

0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:32.080
<v Speaker 2>One of our accounts after Bruce was there was Elvis Presley,

0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:35.560
<v Speaker 2>and this was Bruce's account, and the Colonel had come

0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:37.760
<v Speaker 2>to him said, if you can build me a system

0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:40.200
<v Speaker 2>that we can hang over the stage so I can

0:42:40.239 --> 0:42:43.440
<v Speaker 2>do three sixty. I can make YadA YadA more money.

0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:46.160
<v Speaker 2>So build me something so I can have a three

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:50.440
<v Speaker 2>sixty sound so I can remember coming home. And Bruce

0:42:50.480 --> 0:42:53.200
<v Speaker 2>would be designing this thing, and the metal shop in Efrita,

0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:56.040
<v Speaker 2>which is a little town outside of Lancaster where there

0:42:56.040 --> 0:42:59.120
<v Speaker 2>was a metal shop, and they built this giant metal

0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:04.840
<v Speaker 2>structure that would hold six speakers in a circle, Wilfer's

0:43:04.880 --> 0:43:08.239
<v Speaker 2>tweeters mid range, all mounted focus. And then it had

0:43:08.239 --> 0:43:11.680
<v Speaker 2>this miracle thing called a chain climber, which is a

0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:14.200
<v Speaker 2>motor that climbs a chain, so you hang a chain

0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:16.640
<v Speaker 2>from the ceiling and it hoists the whole thing up

0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.919
<v Speaker 2>right from the middle of the stage. And it came

0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:22.640
<v Speaker 2>apart in a clamshell and you'd roll it in the truck,

0:43:22.719 --> 0:43:26.000
<v Speaker 2>all pre set wired and everything, roll it out, roll

0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:29.560
<v Speaker 2>it on, hoist it up. So he built this thing

0:43:30.120 --> 0:43:34.480
<v Speaker 2>and probably gobs of money doing it. And he said,

0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:36.200
<v Speaker 2>would you come on the road with me for the

0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:38.800
<v Speaker 2>dry run. We'll do the you know, the two of

0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:42.680
<v Speaker 2>us together. You've feared me two engineers to scope out

0:43:42.680 --> 0:43:45.520
<v Speaker 2>whether this really works or not. When we get to

0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:48.240
<v Speaker 2>the gig, We set it up, get it in the air.

0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Everything seems to be working fine. Show starts and we

0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:56.040
<v Speaker 2>get maybe a minute into the first song and the

0:43:56.080 --> 0:44:01.399
<v Speaker 2>whole top end goes nothing but mush. We couldn't figure

0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:05.279
<v Speaker 2>out what's going on. And so the long short of

0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:08.160
<v Speaker 2>it is, we never thought about the fact that the

0:44:08.160 --> 0:44:12.759
<v Speaker 2>whole structure was built out of metal, and that if

0:44:12.800 --> 0:44:16.799
<v Speaker 2>anything would blow where the voice coils would touch the

0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:21.920
<v Speaker 2>metal of the driver, it would short out to everything else.

0:44:23.200 --> 0:44:26.320
<v Speaker 2>And that's why all the amps blew, all the drivers

0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:29.279
<v Speaker 2>blewe and so we had to We limped through that

0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:32.040
<v Speaker 2>one show before we realized we had to isolate everything.

0:44:32.080 --> 0:44:34.600
<v Speaker 2>But it was an embarrassment of sorts.

0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, was that part of the deal if you went

0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:41.120
<v Speaker 1>on the road that you had to drive the truck too?

0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Pretty much? Yeah, we did not have drivers in those days.

0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:49.080
<v Speaker 2>I never had a driver except on the Manassas tour

0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:51.480
<v Speaker 2>and he taught me how to drive.

0:44:58.920 --> 0:45:01.839
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about the avenu of monitors.

0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:07.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, it was my I failed. Basically. Roy came

0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 2>to me and said we're going to start building monitors

0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:12.040
<v Speaker 2>bronze stage and I said, what are You're crazy? What

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.279
<v Speaker 2>do we need monitors, for can't they hear themselves? And

0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:18.400
<v Speaker 2>he said, no, no, no, they want to hear themselves.

0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:20.440
<v Speaker 2>I want to build a little tiny speaker. Make it

0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:23.200
<v Speaker 2>as small as you possibly can, have an angle up

0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:26.040
<v Speaker 2>so that it points up at the guy singing. All right,

0:45:26.080 --> 0:45:30.440
<v Speaker 2>So I build it, and my heart wasn't in it,

0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:35.200
<v Speaker 2>but anyhow, so I built something rudimentary to what exactly

0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:37.600
<v Speaker 2>what we see today as far as a little monitor,

0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:40.120
<v Speaker 2>and Roy said, that's not going to do. I'm Roy

0:45:40.200 --> 0:45:44.080
<v Speaker 2>was a task master. He was a real you know,

0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:48.280
<v Speaker 2>you imagine your shop teacher criticizing your joinery. That's what

0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Roy was and probably still is. And and he turns

0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:58.520
<v Speaker 2>around and one day later cranks out basically the same thing,

0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:02.279
<v Speaker 2>but like a beautiful piece of furniture. Routed edge is

0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:07.200
<v Speaker 2>good seams weight a ton. And then he had put

0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.120
<v Speaker 2>them in complimentary angles so you could have two of

0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:11.520
<v Speaker 2>them back to back. In a case, you can roll

0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:14.240
<v Speaker 2>them on the truck. And so that was our first

0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:18.239
<v Speaker 2>slanted monitor, which you could say that was probably the

0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:21.879
<v Speaker 2>first one invented. I've heard people dispute it that maybe

0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:23.640
<v Speaker 2>on the West coast there was somebody that came up

0:46:23.680 --> 0:46:27.040
<v Speaker 2>with the same idea. It wasn't that radical an idea.

0:46:27.080 --> 0:46:29.279
<v Speaker 2>It was just the idea of what it would take

0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:31.160
<v Speaker 2>to make it run, because you're going to have to

0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:34.160
<v Speaker 2>have a separate mix to just put the vocal mic

0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:36.759
<v Speaker 2>through it or whatever he might want to hear.

0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:41.120
<v Speaker 1>So once you invent the vocal monitors and you need

0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:44.520
<v Speaker 1>a board for that, you now have two engineers on

0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:44.959
<v Speaker 1>the road.

0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:49.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you've got a monitor guy in a front of

0:46:49.320 --> 0:46:49.719
<v Speaker 2>house guy.

0:46:49.800 --> 0:46:52.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, the front of house, which you did a ton of.

0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:54.520
<v Speaker 1>What's the key for a front of house mix?

0:46:57.280 --> 0:47:00.319
<v Speaker 2>Well, getting a good location is probably half of it,

0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:02.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, because most of the houses would say this

0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:05.640
<v Speaker 2>is where you can put the mixer, and in many

0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:08.040
<v Speaker 2>cases that might be so far back you really don't

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:10.120
<v Speaker 2>know what's going on, might be behind the whole crowd,

0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:12.080
<v Speaker 2>or maybe you're off to the side where you really

0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:15.760
<v Speaker 2>can't tell if the low end's doing anything. In those days,

0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 2>the systems were so uneven that the best place to

0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:21.920
<v Speaker 2>mix it would be right in front of the speakers,

0:47:21.960 --> 0:47:25.160
<v Speaker 2>maybe one hundred feet away. And so that's what we

0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:27.839
<v Speaker 2>always tried to get. If you get to a place

0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:31.040
<v Speaker 2>where you can get something, where you're actually here, then

0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:33.560
<v Speaker 2>the task becomes whether or not you know what to do,

0:47:33.880 --> 0:47:35.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, to make it sound good, you know what's

0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:39.239
<v Speaker 2>a good balance. And of course in those days, everybody

0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:42.359
<v Speaker 2>was enamored with the kick drum, and so that to

0:47:42.400 --> 0:47:44.799
<v Speaker 2>this day, I'm still upset with how loud people make

0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.799
<v Speaker 2>kickdrums in live pas It's like, come on, this is

0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.759
<v Speaker 2>like what about the rest of the band, But yeah,

0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:58.160
<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's a matter of having a good sound check,

0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:07.520
<v Speaker 2>making sure that everything is balanced coming off the stage first.

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:12.120
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's probably the thing I would always

0:48:12.160 --> 0:48:13.800
<v Speaker 2>do in sound check is go up on stage and

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.160
<v Speaker 2>listen to what they're doing without the system on it,

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:21.080
<v Speaker 2>and then turn on the house system and say, okay,

0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:23.600
<v Speaker 2>can you hear yourself singing out of the house, And

0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:26.120
<v Speaker 2>then you know we balanced from there, and then you

0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:27.520
<v Speaker 2>fill in the stage monitors.

0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're on the road with all these bands, although

0:48:31.000 --> 0:48:34.319
<v Speaker 1>you're working morning, noon and night. Needless to say, there

0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:38.239
<v Speaker 1>were no self honed cameras. But to what degree was

0:48:38.280 --> 0:48:40.920
<v Speaker 1>it sex, drugs and rock and roll or was everybody

0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:42.880
<v Speaker 1>working so hard? It really wasn't like that.

0:48:45.320 --> 0:48:55.799
<v Speaker 2>There's some of both, you know, it's very much it's

0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:58.680
<v Speaker 2>all the Gamut. You know both.

0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:03.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you did so many shows. We talked about the

0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Elvis Show and the problem. Tell me about two great shows.

0:49:10.960 --> 0:49:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmmm. Two great shows.

0:49:17.440 --> 0:49:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Were two great tours.

0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:29.560
<v Speaker 2>Well probably you know Logins and Messina was uh we

0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:32.960
<v Speaker 2>tore over to him for about a year off and

0:49:33.000 --> 0:49:42.359
<v Speaker 2>on and I had a decent system. The same that

0:49:42.400 --> 0:49:45.040
<v Speaker 2>was so great about that band was what was coming

0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:49.040
<v Speaker 2>off stage, just like with Manassas, was almost exactly what

0:49:49.080 --> 0:49:53.719
<v Speaker 2>the record was. All the parts were there. Jimmy and

0:49:53.760 --> 0:49:57.879
<v Speaker 2>Messina was a taskmaster extraordinaire. The guy was you could

0:49:57.880 --> 0:50:00.560
<v Speaker 2>say he's an asshole, but really he was just very

0:50:00.600 --> 0:50:03.760
<v Speaker 2>focused on what was right and wrong and a real producer.

0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:07.319
<v Speaker 2>He knew what was how to how to make things

0:50:07.360 --> 0:50:12.920
<v Speaker 2>sound good and so yeah, the shows were consistently great

0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:17.600
<v Speaker 2>every night. You know, Kenny Logan singing and uh and

0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:22.680
<v Speaker 2>well well arranged band with lots of colors, uh, minimalized.

0:50:22.680 --> 0:50:25.360
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't over the top. There wasn't too much. You

0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:29.279
<v Speaker 2>could really make things sound great and so that was

0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:31.759
<v Speaker 2>a lot of fun and it was well run. There

0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:38.480
<v Speaker 2>was uh, you know, the touring was was reasonable. The

0:50:38.520 --> 0:50:42.480
<v Speaker 2>other one was uh, the James Gang, which which is

0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:49.120
<v Speaker 2>an amazing show. You know, good songs, Joe Walsh amazing

0:50:49.160 --> 0:50:52.799
<v Speaker 2>guitar player, but you know Jimmy and Dale. It's for

0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:55.440
<v Speaker 2>a three piece band. It was, and you could make

0:50:55.480 --> 0:51:00.360
<v Speaker 2>it sound amazing because it was so simple and but

0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:03.400
<v Speaker 2>probably the most fun that I've had mixing was the

0:51:03.440 --> 0:51:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Mellencamp And this is much later what happened later on

0:51:08.400 --> 0:51:12.920
<v Speaker 2>for me in a little out of order, but the

0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:16.080
<v Speaker 2>ten years from like seventy three when I started in

0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:21.120
<v Speaker 2>the studio until eighty two when Mellencamp and I had

0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:27.200
<v Speaker 2>our first big record with the American Full John Wood

0:51:27.360 --> 0:51:33.560
<v Speaker 2>would basically commandeer me from my studio work and say,

0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:35.160
<v Speaker 2>you got to come out in the road now. The

0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:37.720
<v Speaker 2>guy here's doing the sound doesn't know what he's doing,

0:51:38.200 --> 0:51:39.480
<v Speaker 2>and so I would go out in the road with

0:51:39.520 --> 0:51:41.239
<v Speaker 2>him and do tours. And this was right when he

0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:43.480
<v Speaker 2>was starting to pick up eight, probably eighty two to

0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:47.640
<v Speaker 2>eighty five, and we had much bigger systems then, and

0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:50.399
<v Speaker 2>they weren't clear systems. They were they were probably show cover,

0:51:51.480 --> 0:51:54.640
<v Speaker 2>but it was a big loud system. I didn't have

0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:56.400
<v Speaker 2>to do any of the work except show up and

0:51:56.520 --> 0:52:02.400
<v Speaker 2>mix and amazing sound shows. Probably some of my most

0:52:02.400 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 2>favorite shows are Mellencamp shows.

0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, now you show up in Miami because Steven Still's

0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:14.239
<v Speaker 1>got you the job. You know, they're the Alberts there.

0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:18.719
<v Speaker 1>You know, Tom Dowd's working there. You show up, what

0:52:18.880 --> 0:52:20.640
<v Speaker 1>is your job? And how do they treat you?

0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:28.839
<v Speaker 2>They're so nice? I mean, there was certainly. The only

0:52:28.920 --> 0:52:32.360
<v Speaker 2>jealousy was from others who were like me, trying to

0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:35.440
<v Speaker 2>make their way through as engineers. And I had been

0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:40.160
<v Speaker 2>given a leg up because of Stephen, and yeah, I

0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:42.400
<v Speaker 2>did have you know, eight years on the road behind me,

0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:45.120
<v Speaker 2>and I knew how to set up equipment and run

0:52:45.120 --> 0:52:47.880
<v Speaker 2>on my cable. But these guys, you know, might have

0:52:47.960 --> 0:52:49.719
<v Speaker 2>come in and been you know, serving coffee for the

0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:53.880
<v Speaker 2>last two years. So there was that. But from the

0:52:53.920 --> 0:53:00.600
<v Speaker 2>other end, like the Alberts were nothing but wonderful. Everyone

0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:05.400
<v Speaker 2>was so nice to me. And I went through my

0:53:05.480 --> 0:53:09.120
<v Speaker 2>initial doing Cuban bands, you know, for probably the first

0:53:09.239 --> 0:53:11.439
<v Speaker 2>year that I was there. It's probably a good thing,

0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.200
<v Speaker 2>doing a lot of any track work, building an album

0:53:14.320 --> 0:53:19.520
<v Speaker 2>in a day, really getting my editing chops up, and

0:53:19.600 --> 0:53:21.719
<v Speaker 2>I was impatient. I can remember going to the owner

0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:24.160
<v Speaker 2>of Macamerman and saying, you know, I'm gonna I'm going

0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:27.000
<v Speaker 2>to mix my first record, and he would look at

0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:30.839
<v Speaker 2>me like nuts. You know, there's you need about ten

0:53:30.920 --> 0:53:33.480
<v Speaker 2>years under your belt before you can be a good mixer,

0:53:34.239 --> 0:53:40.919
<v Speaker 2>and it was about right. Uh yeah, I would say

0:53:40.920 --> 0:53:44.799
<v Speaker 2>that Initially, I also found a niche because of my

0:53:45.320 --> 0:53:50.160
<v Speaker 2>ability as an engineer, speaker design. I was way ahead

0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:53.239
<v Speaker 2>of everybody else. I knew more about a lot of

0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:57.920
<v Speaker 2>elements of the technical stuff than anybody there, even the

0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:01.200
<v Speaker 2>even the engineering department, because we had built so much stuff.

0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:04.400
<v Speaker 2>And there were issues that we had with m c I,

0:54:04.560 --> 0:54:08.239
<v Speaker 2>which was the local uh Fort Lauder deal company that

0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:12.960
<v Speaker 2>built the tape machines and the consoles that I get

0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:15.839
<v Speaker 2>in arguments with about you know, they were using these

0:54:16.120 --> 0:54:20.719
<v Speaker 2>ICs in their consoles that sounded horrible, and nobody would

0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:22.640
<v Speaker 2>believe me. You know, I said, look what's going on.

0:54:22.800 --> 0:54:26.120
<v Speaker 2>API has got nave. All of these companies they use

0:54:26.440 --> 0:54:30.360
<v Speaker 2>they don't use integrated circuits, they use discrete components and

0:54:30.400 --> 0:54:34.520
<v Speaker 2>the transformers and things that sound good. And they would

0:54:34.520 --> 0:54:38.759
<v Speaker 2>just tell me, no, this is natural. It's unity in,

0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:42.719
<v Speaker 2>unity out. And no one understood that we were in

0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:45.640
<v Speaker 2>the business of coloring, that we're painting with air and

0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:50.200
<v Speaker 2>that you have to have things that make coloration. It's

0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:53.480
<v Speaker 2>not supposed to be what comes in goes out. That's

0:54:53.560 --> 0:54:56.839
<v Speaker 2>high five shit. When you're when you're recording something, it's

0:54:56.960 --> 0:55:02.240
<v Speaker 2>entirely different. And so there were those kind of battles.

0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:05.720
<v Speaker 2>I wound up redoing a lot of the monitoring systems there.

0:55:06.880 --> 0:55:10.400
<v Speaker 2>I worked with a guy named Ed Long who was

0:55:10.440 --> 0:55:16.960
<v Speaker 2>a San Jose speaker designer. He built time ALIGNE speakers

0:55:17.000 --> 0:55:19.720
<v Speaker 2>monitors and we played around with that for a while,

0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:22.200
<v Speaker 2>all that kind of stuff.

0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:29.440
<v Speaker 1>So you're there. Traditionally, you know, you start as second

0:55:29.480 --> 0:55:33.120
<v Speaker 1>engineer and you work in like sixteen twenty hours a day.

0:55:33.280 --> 0:55:34.359
<v Speaker 1>Was that your experience?

0:55:35.640 --> 0:55:39.919
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it was wonderful. And overtime is the key

0:55:39.960 --> 0:55:43.480
<v Speaker 2>to survival, so you know, obviously, you know, if you

0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:45.560
<v Speaker 2>can put in one hundred hours a week every week,

0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:49.919
<v Speaker 2>your paychecks a lot better because the minimum I went

0:55:50.000 --> 0:55:54.480
<v Speaker 2>from a great, amazing amount of money I was making

0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:57.520
<v Speaker 2>when I was on the road to virtually nothing. You know,

0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:00.280
<v Speaker 2>when I started in the studio.

0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:02.360
<v Speaker 1>And what was the key to going from a second

0:56:02.400 --> 0:56:03.560
<v Speaker 1>to a regular engineer.

0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:11.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, I didn't spend much time as a second,

0:56:11.880 --> 0:56:15.360
<v Speaker 2>so they threw me into the lower echelon, you know,

0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:17.120
<v Speaker 2>like the Cuban bands that would come in for a

0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:20.640
<v Speaker 2>day and just kind of let me flounder and I

0:56:20.680 --> 0:56:24.359
<v Speaker 2>would get through it. And it didn't take me long

0:56:24.440 --> 0:56:27.879
<v Speaker 2>before I could, you know, get through a session on

0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:30.640
<v Speaker 2>my own with with with a second engineer. I didn't

0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:36.600
<v Speaker 2>spend much time as a second engineer. Maybe no, not

0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:42.880
<v Speaker 2>really fortunate that in most cases because I was lousy,

0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:47.560
<v Speaker 2>My printing wasn't good enough, all the stuff that seconds

0:56:47.600 --> 0:56:52.520
<v Speaker 2>are supposed to do. Setups. Yeah, so.

0:56:54.160 --> 0:56:58.800
<v Speaker 1>You're doing Cuban bands, etc. What do you learn about

0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:03.799
<v Speaker 1>studio sound as a host a live sound studio engineering?

0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:05.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's like we're talking about just a second ago,

0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:10.799
<v Speaker 2>that painting with air is the way that I like

0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to think about this. It really is. And everybody has

0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:20.960
<v Speaker 2>a unique way that they want something to present. And

0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:24.120
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of why I think I've had such a

0:57:24.120 --> 0:57:26.560
<v Speaker 2>long career, is that I've always been willing to draw

0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:29.040
<v Speaker 2>a bit a different kind of painting for each band,

0:57:29.840 --> 0:57:32.480
<v Speaker 2>and that I, in fact, what I would do as

0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:34.920
<v Speaker 2>a process would be to look at it and say

0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:38.680
<v Speaker 2>that guy's got a certain kind of guitar tone and

0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:42.000
<v Speaker 2>some way that he plays that that's kind of special,

0:57:42.760 --> 0:57:46.000
<v Speaker 2>and maybe the grooves special here, and that these things

0:57:46.040 --> 0:57:48.760
<v Speaker 2>need to be given more room, and that thing over

0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:52.080
<v Speaker 2>there which is just covering everything up, maybe we just

0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:55.479
<v Speaker 2>get rid of it. So there's this kind of very

0:57:55.600 --> 0:58:00.840
<v Speaker 2>quickly trying to make an assessment of of what's important.

0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:04.800
<v Speaker 2>And then because you're the engineer, you can influence all

0:58:04.840 --> 0:58:07.920
<v Speaker 2>this stuff without a word. You just make the balance

0:58:07.960 --> 0:58:10.320
<v Speaker 2>the way you hear it, and if it sounds good

0:58:10.320 --> 0:58:12.439
<v Speaker 2>and everybody agrees, you're on your way. Well, of course

0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:19.360
<v Speaker 2>that's a whole different story. But yeah, I think that

0:58:19.360 --> 0:58:26.800
<v Speaker 2>that's the main difference is the creative process of it's

0:58:26.920 --> 0:58:29.200
<v Speaker 2>actually kind of the same thing of what a good

0:58:29.240 --> 0:58:32.959
<v Speaker 2>producer will do is realize the strengths that he has

0:58:33.000 --> 0:58:37.960
<v Speaker 2>to work with and not demand out of the band

0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:39.280
<v Speaker 2>something they're not capable of.

0:58:39.920 --> 0:58:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when do you go from Cuban, you know, sort

0:58:43.760 --> 0:58:47.440
<v Speaker 1>of off the radar bands to bands with a higher

0:58:47.520 --> 0:58:49.000
<v Speaker 1>or acts with a higher profile.

0:58:52.480 --> 0:58:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, they're the ones that were my clients. Like Steven

0:58:55.600 --> 0:58:58.120
<v Speaker 2>would come in with Neil and so that would be

0:58:58.480 --> 0:59:03.600
<v Speaker 2>my project for that three months or whatever. I started

0:59:03.600 --> 0:59:07.080
<v Speaker 2>working with the Albert brothers because the Albert brothers both

0:59:07.440 --> 0:59:11.240
<v Speaker 2>liked producing and not doing so much of the engineering,

0:59:11.440 --> 0:59:14.600
<v Speaker 2>even though Ron was a phenomenal engineer, and as a

0:59:14.640 --> 0:59:18.880
<v Speaker 2>team they're really really good at what they do. They

0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:21.400
<v Speaker 2>wanted they wanted me to be their engineer and so

0:59:21.560 --> 0:59:23.760
<v Speaker 2>basically I came in and it was the three of

0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:30.960
<v Speaker 2>us and so there were jeez, pure prairie League mcgwynn,

0:59:31.000 --> 0:59:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Clark Hillman. Uh. Eventually it was John Mellencamp. Uh. The

0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:41.600
<v Speaker 2>first record I made with John was with the Albert brothers.

0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:44.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, there was there was a ton of them.

0:59:45.120 --> 0:59:48.480
<v Speaker 2>So that was kind of my next step was working

0:59:48.480 --> 0:59:51.800
<v Speaker 2>with producer known producers at at the and they were

0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the premier producers at Criteria other than Tom Down their residents.

0:59:57.680 --> 1:00:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Tom would come and go between New York and in Miami.

1:00:08.880 --> 1:00:12.120
<v Speaker 1>So at what point, other than Steven did you start

1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:14.480
<v Speaker 1>to get your own projects? And how did you do that?

1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:18.560
<v Speaker 2>You know? There was the key was the front office

1:00:19.800 --> 1:00:23.320
<v Speaker 2>and knowing the person who was taking the bookings, and

1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:25.480
<v Speaker 2>so it would be kind of a daily checking in

1:00:26.440 --> 1:00:33.400
<v Speaker 2>with Margie or it was Edith and what came in, Well,

1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Cat Stevens just called in to do a day. Oh

1:00:38.640 --> 1:00:41.600
<v Speaker 2>what is anybody assigned in it note, what could I

1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:43.840
<v Speaker 2>do that I think I'm available? You know, that would

1:00:43.880 --> 1:00:46.840
<v Speaker 2>be that kind of thing, and so Cat Stevens would

1:00:46.880 --> 1:00:50.200
<v Speaker 2>come in, we'd spend the day mixing something that he had,

1:00:51.000 --> 1:00:55.080
<v Speaker 2>So those kind of that would be it. Further on,

1:00:55.240 --> 1:00:58.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, like I only had the opportunity of working

1:00:58.560 --> 1:01:00.600
<v Speaker 2>with Tom Dowd directly one and that was on a

1:01:00.640 --> 1:01:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Firefall record, and that was amazing. I mean, that's graduate

1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:12.120
<v Speaker 2>level production. Doesn't get any better of, you know, watching

1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:15.520
<v Speaker 2>somebody who really understands everything.

1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:21.640
<v Speaker 1>So how did you go from moving the faders to

1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:22.720
<v Speaker 1>being the producer?

1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:28.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, there never really was one or the other

1:01:28.400 --> 1:01:33.240
<v Speaker 2>until much later. Initially I knew that my engineering was

1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:36.200
<v Speaker 2>going to be my ticket to the producing thing. Well,

1:01:36.240 --> 1:01:38.280
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole section where I worked with the Beg's

1:01:38.320 --> 1:01:44.840
<v Speaker 2>for about three years, and that probably is part of

1:01:44.880 --> 1:01:47.919
<v Speaker 2>the transition, is that I worked with the production team

1:01:48.000 --> 1:01:51.919
<v Speaker 2>of Alvi Gluten, Carle Richardson and Barry Gibb and we

1:01:52.000 --> 1:01:53.800
<v Speaker 2>did the first thing I did with them was a

1:01:53.800 --> 1:01:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Barbara Skreuisan record, and it was tied into them moving

1:01:57.560 --> 1:02:01.680
<v Speaker 2>from doing their records at Criteria to building their own

1:02:01.680 --> 1:02:05.360
<v Speaker 2>studio over in Miami. Beach. They hired me to help

1:02:05.400 --> 1:02:09.400
<v Speaker 2>them build the studio. At the time, Criteria was starting

1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:12.800
<v Speaker 2>to be in doldrums. I think it was probably seventy eight,

1:02:12.960 --> 1:02:17.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe music business was tanking. All of the bands that

1:02:17.360 --> 1:02:20.200
<v Speaker 2>had to come to Miami to record from the Eagles

1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:22.800
<v Speaker 2>and Simsic and all that stuff was starting to dry up,

1:02:23.560 --> 1:02:28.320
<v Speaker 2>And so I took the job and kind of went

1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:33.640
<v Speaker 2>off the salary at Criteria and built their studio and

1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:37.600
<v Speaker 2>then helped them make the striis In record, which was

1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:42.600
<v Speaker 2>a continuation of their thing that they did with looping,

1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:49.360
<v Speaker 2>with making tape machines, have tape running a circle, A

1:02:49.360 --> 1:02:54.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of a lot of brainstorming kind of stuff, no costs,

1:02:54.520 --> 1:03:01.160
<v Speaker 2>spared a lot of learning cases what not to do,

1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:04.600
<v Speaker 2>because we eventually spent like a million dollars on a

1:03:04.640 --> 1:03:08.480
<v Speaker 2>record of their own. We built drum machines that were

1:03:08.520 --> 1:03:13.919
<v Speaker 2>actually drums that had arms that hit We used solenoids

1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:17.720
<v Speaker 2>to hit the drums and then send claviers to trigger them,

1:03:17.800 --> 1:03:24.960
<v Speaker 2>and we spent weeks. We had jeff Riccaro and Steve

1:03:25.080 --> 1:03:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Gadd and Russ Kunkle come in for two weeks at

1:03:28.840 --> 1:03:31.760
<v Speaker 2>a stretch and try and aim at a two beat

1:03:31.800 --> 1:03:41.360
<v Speaker 2>loop on a twenty four track machine. Crazy stuff, you know. Anyhow,

1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:45.960
<v Speaker 2>that was kind of what I did right before Mellencamp

1:03:46.040 --> 1:03:47.560
<v Speaker 2>called and said, will you come and make a record

1:03:47.600 --> 1:03:52.560
<v Speaker 2>with me? And that was when I started my transition

1:03:52.840 --> 1:03:55.840
<v Speaker 2>to producing. He said, you can. You can co produce

1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:58.160
<v Speaker 2>the record with me, but I want you to engineer.

1:03:58.480 --> 1:04:02.000
<v Speaker 2>I want you to help me the people keep me

1:04:02.040 --> 1:04:06.840
<v Speaker 2>from getting too crazy. Probably the reverse or which album

1:04:06.960 --> 1:04:10.920
<v Speaker 2>was that American full Okay?

1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Legendarily he presented it to Mercury and they said, this sucks,

1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:17.360
<v Speaker 1>We're not going to put it out and he stood

1:04:17.400 --> 1:04:20.800
<v Speaker 1>on his ground. What was the experience making the record?

1:04:23.440 --> 1:04:29.560
<v Speaker 2>It was horrible, you know. I booked a new studio

1:04:29.600 --> 1:04:32.320
<v Speaker 2>that we had just finished at Criteria for about three months.

1:04:32.400 --> 1:04:38.040
<v Speaker 2>One summer he came in and rented a house. I

1:04:38.120 --> 1:04:43.880
<v Speaker 2>had just finished working with the Beg's on a record

1:04:43.080 --> 1:04:47.200
<v Speaker 2>that they released it. I think I told you they

1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:50.600
<v Speaker 2>spent a year on it and sold forty thousand copies.

1:04:50.680 --> 1:04:54.840
<v Speaker 2>It was a disaster, but I'd learned so much stuff

1:04:55.600 --> 1:05:02.360
<v Speaker 2>about how to combine all these elements, and the lind

1:05:02.400 --> 1:05:04.280
<v Speaker 2>drum machine was one of the things that we were

1:05:04.280 --> 1:05:06.280
<v Speaker 2>playing around with. We had access to one of the

1:05:06.280 --> 1:05:10.240
<v Speaker 2>first ones. And so during that summer I kept on

1:05:10.280 --> 1:05:13.400
<v Speaker 2>saying to John, you know, it can't just be two

1:05:13.400 --> 1:05:15.680
<v Speaker 2>guitars based and drums. We have to have some other

1:05:15.760 --> 1:05:20.160
<v Speaker 2>stuff too. And I've learned all this stuff. I'm not

1:05:20.160 --> 1:05:23.160
<v Speaker 2>saying it's right for you. And so we started experimenting,

1:05:23.160 --> 1:05:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and this is what Jack and Diane came out of

1:05:25.320 --> 1:05:28.040
<v Speaker 2>the use of the lind drum machine, and event we

1:05:28.080 --> 1:05:30.320
<v Speaker 2>worked on that for the whole summer. It took forever

1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:33.160
<v Speaker 2>to figure out how to I think Kenny was even

1:05:33.200 --> 1:05:35.600
<v Speaker 2>on with you, and he described how long it took

1:05:35.680 --> 1:05:38.240
<v Speaker 2>until he finally came up with a drum beat that

1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:41.320
<v Speaker 2>was like, Goddess out of this adul drums of that,

1:05:42.600 --> 1:05:49.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's like anyhow, the record was really hard John.

1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think he would admit this too, that

1:05:53.440 --> 1:05:56.840
<v Speaker 2>he really didn't understand songwriting and arranging yet. And I

1:05:56.960 --> 1:06:00.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't very good at it either. I mean, my my,

1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:02.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have one hundred songs that I knew how

1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:05.280
<v Speaker 2>to play on an instrument, which I think is that's

1:06:05.320 --> 1:06:12.160
<v Speaker 2>where good arranging and songwriting comes from. And so we struggled,

1:06:12.320 --> 1:06:14.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, with a lot of things that weren't really

1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:19.160
<v Speaker 2>that good, but we got Jack and Diane out of it,

1:06:19.920 --> 1:06:23.400
<v Speaker 2>and we did finish it during that three months long

1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:26.880
<v Speaker 2>short of it is, we handed it in and I

1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:29.960
<v Speaker 2>think the comment was what happened to our Neil Diamond?

1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:35.880
<v Speaker 2>What are you guys doing? And they wanted to drop him?

1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Was the net net? There were a lot of conversations.

1:06:39.920 --> 1:06:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I remember he was talking to Jimmy Ivan. I think

1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Jimmy Ivan was like, I don't know that he was

1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:47.280
<v Speaker 2>really trying to work his way in, but he was

1:06:47.320 --> 1:06:52.440
<v Speaker 2>certainly somebody that was offering opinions. And fortunately Billy Gaff,

1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:59.240
<v Speaker 2>who was John's manager and label, had enough faith in

1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:02.360
<v Speaker 2>him to to keep on shopping. You started shopping it

1:07:03.080 --> 1:07:08.640
<v Speaker 2>and we gave it a rest and then went back

1:07:08.640 --> 1:07:10.880
<v Speaker 2>in the studio for another stint for a month, and

1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:13.600
<v Speaker 2>by then he had paired up with a songwriter named

1:07:13.600 --> 1:07:17.840
<v Speaker 2>George Green and written Hurt So Good and I think

1:07:17.960 --> 1:07:21.640
<v Speaker 2>maybe two other songs, and we recorded four more songs

1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:24.520
<v Speaker 2>and then finished the album, turned it in, still didn't

1:07:24.600 --> 1:07:27.480
<v Speaker 2>like it, and it went through another couple of months

1:07:27.480 --> 1:07:33.160
<v Speaker 2>of the label losing interest until had a promotion at

1:07:33.200 --> 1:07:35.560
<v Speaker 2>the rock radio said I'm going to give this thing

1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:37.680
<v Speaker 2>a try and see if it works, and he put

1:07:37.720 --> 1:07:44.440
<v Speaker 2>it on radio in Pittsburgh, I think it was Pittsburgh.

1:07:44.480 --> 1:07:47.360
<v Speaker 2>He put it on rock radio, maybe ten stations, and

1:07:47.400 --> 1:07:50.160
<v Speaker 2>it reacted, so they put it on one hundred and

1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the rest is what we see today.

1:07:53.040 --> 1:07:54.080
<v Speaker 1>So how did that feel?

1:07:55.760 --> 1:07:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Are you kidding? I was down to that we

1:07:58.840 --> 1:08:01.840
<v Speaker 2>had borrowed money from so many people. They had given

1:08:01.880 --> 1:08:05.960
<v Speaker 2>me fifteen thousand dollars for the co production, and I

1:08:06.000 --> 1:08:08.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't have any other income. And this was like a

1:08:09.000 --> 1:08:12.280
<v Speaker 2>two year process. We were like borrowing money from friends

1:08:12.360 --> 1:08:17.080
<v Speaker 2>and my parents and my sister just to make the

1:08:17.080 --> 1:08:23.160
<v Speaker 2>house payments. And it was it was amazing. And then

1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the fear of how am I going to like not

1:08:26.080 --> 1:08:33.320
<v Speaker 2>fuck this up? I remember that being Okay, we got

1:08:33.400 --> 1:08:35.519
<v Speaker 2>this far, now what you know, how are we going

1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:36.800
<v Speaker 2>to keep it going? You know?

1:08:38.320 --> 1:08:39.719
<v Speaker 1>So what was the next step?

1:08:39.760 --> 1:08:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Were you? Well, get out of debt? You know? I

1:08:44.160 --> 1:08:47.960
<v Speaker 2>think I did a record with Michael Stanley, who there's

1:08:48.360 --> 1:08:53.800
<v Speaker 2>a legendary Cleveland you know, Bruce Springsteen ish, wonderful man,

1:08:56.120 --> 1:09:00.360
<v Speaker 2>wonderful man. I made a record with him, paid me well,

1:09:00.360 --> 1:09:04.760
<v Speaker 2>the Balkans treated me well, they managed him, and that

1:09:04.840 --> 1:09:09.559
<v Speaker 2>got us out of debt, and by then I think

1:09:09.600 --> 1:09:12.800
<v Speaker 2>there was Alan Grubman was my attorney at the time,

1:09:13.000 --> 1:09:16.519
<v Speaker 2>and he got me a good deal on the American

1:09:16.560 --> 1:09:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Fool record, was a fair deal for co production, and

1:09:21.680 --> 1:09:23.400
<v Speaker 2>it was just a matter of waiting for the money

1:09:23.439 --> 1:09:25.320
<v Speaker 2>to come in, you know, And that kind of got

1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:30.200
<v Speaker 2>us out of howk. The next move was really realizing

1:09:30.240 --> 1:09:33.479
<v Speaker 2>that Miami wasn't going to be good for me anymore,

1:09:34.040 --> 1:09:36.640
<v Speaker 2>that I needed to try and take advantage of some

1:09:36.720 --> 1:09:40.240
<v Speaker 2>of this heat and see if I can maybe move

1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:43.439
<v Speaker 2>to Los Angeles or New York and get some more work.

1:09:44.840 --> 1:09:47.639
<v Speaker 2>So I thought Los Angeles. I was never that enamored

1:09:47.680 --> 1:09:50.000
<v Speaker 2>with New York. It was not my kind of town.

1:09:50.880 --> 1:09:57.640
<v Speaker 2>And so I moved out and knocked on doors for

1:09:57.680 --> 1:10:00.680
<v Speaker 2>a couple of weeks and didn't get really didn't get

1:10:00.680 --> 1:10:02.519
<v Speaker 2>my foot in the door, and I was at a

1:10:02.560 --> 1:10:05.559
<v Speaker 2>loss and I didn't want to do and I thought,

1:10:05.600 --> 1:10:08.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, who do I know that would maybe have

1:10:08.640 --> 1:10:12.599
<v Speaker 2>an idea? And I was thinking, well, Bobby COLUMBI wasn't

1:10:12.600 --> 1:10:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a close friend, but he was somebody that I toured

1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:20.360
<v Speaker 2>with and he knew who I was, and so I

1:10:20.439 --> 1:10:22.000
<v Speaker 2>managed to get his phone number and I called him

1:10:22.080 --> 1:10:26.880
<v Speaker 2>up and Bobby was like, done, you need an agent,

1:10:26.960 --> 1:10:30.120
<v Speaker 2>you need a manager. You can't You'll never get anywhere.

1:10:30.280 --> 1:10:36.000
<v Speaker 2>And the guy you need is Bob Boziak. And yeah,

1:10:36.040 --> 1:10:40.200
<v Speaker 2>he did me such a solid what a great guy. Anyhow,

1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:42.720
<v Speaker 2>So I met Bob, and Bob took me on and

1:10:43.000 --> 1:10:45.280
<v Speaker 2>told me to turn my beard up a little bit

1:10:45.439 --> 1:10:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and sent me out on meetings and got me some

1:10:49.120 --> 1:10:53.840
<v Speaker 2>work and bit by bit, but generally speaking, for the

1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:56.439
<v Speaker 2>first few years, it was from one mel Camp record

1:10:56.479 --> 1:10:59.720
<v Speaker 2>to the next that built my momentum.

1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:05.320
<v Speaker 1>You're talking about we implying a significant other. When did

1:11:05.320 --> 1:11:08.120
<v Speaker 1>you have time to even find a significant other?

1:11:13.040 --> 1:11:16.880
<v Speaker 2>I met Grace, my wife currently, and then to my

1:11:16.960 --> 1:11:21.200
<v Speaker 2>only wife in nineteen seventy eight, right around the time

1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:25.599
<v Speaker 2>that I switched from Criteria to working with the Bechis,

1:11:26.040 --> 1:11:33.960
<v Speaker 2>and we got married in seventy nine. And yeah, it's

1:11:34.000 --> 1:11:35.760
<v Speaker 2>been forty five years.

1:11:36.360 --> 1:11:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you work on the next album, Pink Houses,

1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:44.840
<v Speaker 1>which is also a success, and then the breakthrough of Scarecrow.

1:11:45.280 --> 1:11:48.240
<v Speaker 1>You're doing all this with Mellencamp. Anything else going on

1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:52.960
<v Speaker 1>of any significance other than Mellencamp, Well.

1:11:52.840 --> 1:12:04.120
<v Speaker 2>It was I need a discography. Cock Robin. Probably that's

1:12:04.200 --> 1:12:06.880
<v Speaker 2>one in there that I recall being in amongst the

1:12:07.360 --> 1:12:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Mellencamp brack oh Arian that's the big one. Yeah, nineteen

1:12:12.080 --> 1:12:17.960
<v Speaker 2>eighty maybe eighty four, Yes, it was. It might have

1:12:18.040 --> 1:12:22.639
<v Speaker 2>been right after the Aha record, which was our second record,

1:12:22.640 --> 1:12:27.120
<v Speaker 2>which we did in a shack which I built out

1:12:27.120 --> 1:12:32.519
<v Speaker 2>of a mobile recording truck, and Arim was looking for

1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:37.240
<v Speaker 2>a producer. They didn't like the idea of me. I

1:12:37.360 --> 1:12:48.240
<v Speaker 2>was too mainstream, too known. They wanted somebody more esoteric. Probably. Anyhow,

1:12:49.040 --> 1:12:54.280
<v Speaker 2>I had gotten the invite through one of John's guitar

1:12:54.360 --> 1:12:58.679
<v Speaker 2>techs and he knew somebody there in Athens and got

1:12:58.720 --> 1:13:04.519
<v Speaker 2>a meeting awkward, very very awkward situation. Ben was lovely,

1:13:04.840 --> 1:13:11.519
<v Speaker 2>Michael Stipe was elusive, as always seems to be. Net

1:13:11.800 --> 1:13:14.559
<v Speaker 2>was that they decided to try me out in a

1:13:14.600 --> 1:13:17.679
<v Speaker 2>local studio. I went into a studio, did a demo

1:13:17.720 --> 1:13:21.479
<v Speaker 2>with him, and they really liked it. And so I

1:13:21.560 --> 1:13:25.680
<v Speaker 2>had just finished building a studio for John in Indiana

1:13:26.600 --> 1:13:28.799
<v Speaker 2>from the ground up. It was like a real studio,

1:13:29.520 --> 1:13:32.559
<v Speaker 2>and we decided to make the record there, which was

1:13:32.600 --> 1:13:37.160
<v Speaker 2>a blast and probably one of the most revealing records

1:13:37.240 --> 1:13:41.040
<v Speaker 2>of my career as far as style and how I produce.

1:13:42.960 --> 1:13:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Learned so much from them.

1:13:46.680 --> 1:13:50.120
<v Speaker 1>So how was the process these You know, Michael Stipe

1:13:50.160 --> 1:13:53.200
<v Speaker 1>is a guy who's got a reputation for knowing what

1:13:53.240 --> 1:13:55.439
<v Speaker 1>he wants and having it go that way.

1:13:56.240 --> 1:13:59.320
<v Speaker 2>You know what we did was we did the tracks first,

1:14:00.040 --> 1:14:03.840
<v Speaker 2>because Peter Buck, I think it probably would be the

1:14:03.840 --> 1:14:06.800
<v Speaker 2>core songwriter of sorts. He came in with the core

1:14:07.080 --> 1:14:10.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is what I've written, this verse, chorus,

1:14:10.360 --> 1:14:13.720
<v Speaker 2>no words. Everybody kind of put parts together. They did

1:14:13.760 --> 1:14:16.880
<v Speaker 2>it all in their own and so we recorded guitar

1:14:16.920 --> 1:14:19.760
<v Speaker 2>based and drums, and then Michael would go off with

1:14:19.800 --> 1:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>that who knows where stay up all night and come

1:14:25.240 --> 1:14:34.080
<v Speaker 2>in with words that were certainly evocative, but from my perspective, nonsensical.

1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:38.960
<v Speaker 2>And this was this was the discussions that he and

1:14:39.000 --> 1:14:42.080
<v Speaker 2>I would have because I was pushing for let's make

1:14:42.120 --> 1:14:44.599
<v Speaker 2>a radio record, Let's make something that makes sense somewhat.

1:14:44.600 --> 1:14:47.679
<v Speaker 2>You're always up a loud, have a great voice. Let's

1:14:48.240 --> 1:14:55.600
<v Speaker 2>let's bring you forward into to record making. And you know,

1:14:55.640 --> 1:15:00.479
<v Speaker 2>we had our arguments. He he didn't see a that way,

1:15:01.479 --> 1:15:04.160
<v Speaker 2>and I began to see it his way, and I

1:15:04.160 --> 1:15:06.080
<v Speaker 2>think he saw I think there was a middle that

1:15:06.120 --> 1:15:09.800
<v Speaker 2>we both came to He for sure became comfortable with

1:15:09.840 --> 1:15:12.639
<v Speaker 2>my idea of the balance being that I could make

1:15:12.640 --> 1:15:16.800
<v Speaker 2>his voice sound consuming so that you didn't think about

1:15:16.840 --> 1:15:18.559
<v Speaker 2>what he was saying. You thought about, Wow, what a

1:15:18.560 --> 1:15:21.679
<v Speaker 2>great sound he makes with his He's got a great voice.

1:15:22.640 --> 1:15:25.320
<v Speaker 2>And then we made the production just a little fuller

1:15:25.360 --> 1:15:30.240
<v Speaker 2>and a little more esoteric because I had a pump organ,

1:15:30.760 --> 1:15:33.639
<v Speaker 2>some unusual instruments that we had found that we that

1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:38.760
<v Speaker 2>we would use, and Michael Mills, Mike Mills was like

1:15:38.880 --> 1:15:41.800
<v Speaker 2>my partner in crime. He could play everything, and I'd say,

1:15:41.800 --> 1:15:43.840
<v Speaker 2>what about if we had a part that came in here,

1:15:43.960 --> 1:15:47.320
<v Speaker 2>can you do something, you know, maybe just to spend

1:15:47.360 --> 1:15:50.000
<v Speaker 2>through here, you know. And so we colored our way

1:15:50.040 --> 1:15:55.360
<v Speaker 2>through it, and then it was a blast, and really

1:15:55.400 --> 1:16:01.280
<v Speaker 2>it really made me start to trust a not being

1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:01.839
<v Speaker 2>in control.

1:16:09.280 --> 1:16:12.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, at what point do you become just a producer

1:16:12.680 --> 1:16:13.960
<v Speaker 1>and you hire an engineer?

1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Right around then, probably I think, oh, Jimmy Barnes and

1:16:23.439 --> 1:16:27.960
<v Speaker 2>all the Melancamp records. We would hire extra engineers, like

1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:31.240
<v Speaker 2>I would be doing the overdubs, I'd be running the

1:16:31.240 --> 1:16:35.679
<v Speaker 2>tape machine, I'd be doing the editing. When it came

1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:39.240
<v Speaker 2>to mixing, because we were doing everything manually. There'd be

1:16:39.280 --> 1:16:41.600
<v Speaker 2>three sets of hands on the board. It would be

1:16:41.600 --> 1:16:45.680
<v Speaker 2>that old style where we'd be rehearsing and editing and

1:16:45.840 --> 1:16:49.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, working your way through. So I was never

1:16:49.280 --> 1:16:52.760
<v Speaker 2>doing it by myself. There would always be Greg Edward

1:16:52.920 --> 1:16:58.840
<v Speaker 2>was one of the engineers, God rest his soul. Ed Thacker.

1:17:00.800 --> 1:17:06.200
<v Speaker 2>No attacker was on Barnes. Dave Dillner a great engineer.

1:17:08.600 --> 1:17:13.439
<v Speaker 2>He did pink houses that era of records. So I

1:17:13.439 --> 1:17:18.360
<v Speaker 2>always had somebody that was an engineer that I was

1:17:18.960 --> 1:17:22.360
<v Speaker 2>producing per se in addition to engineering. And it wasn't

1:17:22.439 --> 1:17:29.840
<v Speaker 2>until much later after I stopped working with Melan Camp

1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:34.920
<v Speaker 2>that I started using engineers for a short period of time,

1:17:35.080 --> 1:17:41.400
<v Speaker 2>mostly across the Jimmy Barnes records, which was Australian artist

1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:48.080
<v Speaker 2>that I started working with and maybe eighty nine wonderful

1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:50.120
<v Speaker 2>guy probably made four or five records with him.

1:17:50.400 --> 1:17:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, they're varying kinds of producers. They're producers who were engineers,

1:17:56.479 --> 1:18:00.360
<v Speaker 1>have an engineer personality. It's more about getting ving in

1:18:00.920 --> 1:18:03.360
<v Speaker 1>and then there are divas come up with their own

1:18:03.439 --> 1:18:08.000
<v Speaker 1>ideas and are constantly battling where are you and how

1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:11.599
<v Speaker 1>important is that you make the band happy, or you

1:18:11.680 --> 1:18:13.840
<v Speaker 1>make yourself happy with the record.

1:18:16.040 --> 1:18:20.439
<v Speaker 2>You know. I think that for me, I'm certainly not

1:18:20.479 --> 1:18:24.680
<v Speaker 2>a songwriter. I don't have any songwriting credits, and I

1:18:24.720 --> 1:18:27.760
<v Speaker 2>don't play a guitar enough to say play a C

1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:31.760
<v Speaker 2>major at this moment. But I know all of the

1:18:31.800 --> 1:18:35.759
<v Speaker 2>words about how to make someone who knows those things

1:18:35.880 --> 1:18:41.720
<v Speaker 2>do what I want. I don't do well in situations

1:18:42.200 --> 1:18:45.840
<v Speaker 2>that the song is not any good in the first place.

1:18:45.880 --> 1:18:47.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to come in and save the day

1:18:47.920 --> 1:18:50.519
<v Speaker 2>fixing a song. I might be able to produce it

1:18:50.560 --> 1:18:55.080
<v Speaker 2>better so that it fits, you know, but yeah, I

1:18:55.120 --> 1:18:59.560
<v Speaker 2>need more to work with. I think the specialty for

1:18:59.680 --> 1:19:02.479
<v Speaker 2>me has always been that I have enough of all

1:19:02.520 --> 1:19:05.599
<v Speaker 2>the different bases that I can cover a week link

1:19:05.920 --> 1:19:09.400
<v Speaker 2>if the band's good. So in some situations I might

1:19:09.479 --> 1:19:15.960
<v Speaker 2>be more of a task master about the performance. You know.

1:19:16.080 --> 1:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe it's it's not tight enough for the grooves wrong.

1:19:20.680 --> 1:19:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Another situation, it might be it needs a bridge. You

1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:24.880
<v Speaker 2>guys need to go out there and write a bridge

1:19:24.920 --> 1:19:30.200
<v Speaker 2>for this. So it's more about asking the questions. I

1:19:30.200 --> 1:19:32.800
<v Speaker 2>think the other thing, it's even more important. Producers usually

1:19:32.800 --> 1:19:36.519
<v Speaker 2>wind up in the position of picking the songs So

1:19:36.560 --> 1:19:40.160
<v Speaker 2>if you're given a set of fifty songs, are you

1:19:40.240 --> 1:19:43.599
<v Speaker 2>capable of picking the ones that are the right group

1:19:43.640 --> 1:19:46.559
<v Speaker 2>of songs for the band? Which ones are the hits?

1:19:47.120 --> 1:19:48.880
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying I've picked the hits over the years,

1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:51.839
<v Speaker 2>because anything but the truth. But I've been near them,

1:19:52.160 --> 1:19:54.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I was involved in making them before

1:19:54.479 --> 1:19:57.560
<v Speaker 2>they became hits. But in almost all the cases, I

1:19:57.800 --> 1:20:00.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, with Melanchamp with it's like, well, hurts so good,

1:20:00.960 --> 1:20:03.400
<v Speaker 2>it's probably our hit. Well we hoped, you know, but

1:20:04.120 --> 1:20:07.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. We thought hold my hand might be it. Two.

1:20:08.600 --> 1:20:13.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So how important is it to maintain a good

1:20:13.520 --> 1:20:15.559
<v Speaker 1>relationship with the act you're producing.

1:20:17.560 --> 1:20:20.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it's very important. I think that if you don't,

1:20:20.120 --> 1:20:23.040
<v Speaker 2>you don't have a I mean, you're going to argue.

1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm not denying that that you can have an argument

1:20:26.040 --> 1:20:30.800
<v Speaker 2>with somebody, but you I can't say that I've had

1:20:30.840 --> 1:20:33.599
<v Speaker 2>success with situations where I'm not getting along with the artists.

1:20:34.640 --> 1:20:37.960
<v Speaker 1>And to what degree does an artist's opinion of the

1:20:38.040 --> 1:20:43.040
<v Speaker 1>experience in the project depend on commercial and critical success.

1:20:45.360 --> 1:20:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would say that most of the people that

1:20:46.760 --> 1:20:50.880
<v Speaker 2>I've worked with that's very important. I can't say, Ariam

1:20:50.920 --> 1:20:52.439
<v Speaker 2>would probably want to be one of the few that

1:20:52.640 --> 1:20:55.439
<v Speaker 2>would tell you, oh, I don't care. You know. Really

1:20:55.479 --> 1:21:01.040
<v Speaker 2>they did want success. The more artsy people that I

1:21:01.160 --> 1:21:05.400
<v Speaker 2>worked with, the record's never happened, you know, So I

1:21:05.400 --> 1:21:11.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I think everybody's you know, in that world,

1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:16.360
<v Speaker 2>and this is all we could get lost in this one,

1:21:16.720 --> 1:21:19.160
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing about what happened. We can make records

1:21:20.080 --> 1:21:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and you can give it to a great label. But

1:21:23.120 --> 1:21:26.519
<v Speaker 2>I have so many stories. Whodi's one of them. Of

1:21:29.960 --> 1:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>they sign it on research. The research says this is

1:21:33.840 --> 1:21:37.240
<v Speaker 2>something people like you make the record. It goes into

1:21:37.240 --> 1:21:40.400
<v Speaker 2>the record company. The record company thinks that shit, they

1:21:40.400 --> 1:21:43.280
<v Speaker 2>don't that. All of the politics that go on in

1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:46.320
<v Speaker 2>the company do everything that's possible to drown the record.

1:21:47.160 --> 1:21:50.559
<v Speaker 2>Finally somebody comes along who has power over the president

1:21:50.600 --> 1:21:54.800
<v Speaker 2>that makes it peak through and now it's made its

1:21:54.800 --> 1:21:59.600
<v Speaker 2>way to being visible. Now that's the one of the

1:21:59.640 --> 1:22:02.400
<v Speaker 2>biggest records of all time. Hoody and the Blowfish Crack

1:22:02.439 --> 1:22:06.920
<v Speaker 2>rear View, that was so close to not even seeing

1:22:06.920 --> 1:22:10.799
<v Speaker 2>the light of day, so close they'd only invested seventy

1:22:10.880 --> 1:22:15.720
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars in it. They weren't like far along that

1:22:15.800 --> 1:22:19.200
<v Speaker 2>happened to me quite a bit. Nearly happened with Mellencamp.

1:22:19.439 --> 1:22:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you talk about the seventy thousand dollars. To what

1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:27.479
<v Speaker 1>degree was it your responsibility to deal with the budget

1:22:27.520 --> 1:22:29.479
<v Speaker 1>and make sure you're living within the lines.

1:22:31.520 --> 1:22:34.360
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty much always. I mean now, I've even had

1:22:34.400 --> 1:22:36.360
<v Speaker 2>money taken out of my back end because I went

1:22:36.400 --> 1:22:42.080
<v Speaker 2>over not a lot, but I knew that that. You know,

1:22:42.960 --> 1:22:45.920
<v Speaker 2>one of my first responsibilities was coming in under budget.

1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:48.799
<v Speaker 2>And if I thought I needed more money, which sometimes

1:22:48.840 --> 1:22:52.479
<v Speaker 2>I did, that you went back to them and got

1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:57.280
<v Speaker 2>their approval before you spend it. But yeah, I would

1:22:57.320 --> 1:23:01.960
<v Speaker 2>say that running a ship that's on course and under

1:23:01.960 --> 1:23:05.040
<v Speaker 2>a budget I always thought was a big part of

1:23:05.040 --> 1:23:05.360
<v Speaker 2>the job.

1:23:06.280 --> 1:23:10.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you work with Bruce Hornsby's first album made his

1:23:10.240 --> 1:23:13.439
<v Speaker 1>name as the Way It Is, et cetera. Second album

1:23:13.520 --> 1:23:15.880
<v Speaker 1>not as successful. You did the third album, A Night

1:23:15.960 --> 1:23:18.479
<v Speaker 1>on the Town, which is either the absolute best work

1:23:18.520 --> 1:23:21.360
<v Speaker 1>he did or you know, you can compare it to

1:23:21.400 --> 1:23:24.080
<v Speaker 1>the first album, phenomenal record. Can you tell me about

1:23:24.080 --> 1:23:24.960
<v Speaker 1>making that record?

1:23:27.200 --> 1:23:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Uh? What a great guy. I just saw him about

1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:36.160
<v Speaker 2>six months ago, play up here in Oxnard, actually in Ventura.

1:23:36.880 --> 1:23:39.880
<v Speaker 2>No OHI it was an OHI gig outdoors. It was amazing,

1:23:43.080 --> 1:23:46.559
<v Speaker 2>A great, great guy what I mean, just so full

1:23:46.600 --> 1:23:54.320
<v Speaker 2>of positive energy and friendly and just a magnet for musicians. Uh.

1:23:54.400 --> 1:23:56.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, it was tricky. It was the first record

1:23:56.880 --> 1:23:59.680
<v Speaker 2>that he had made, you know, using a band in

1:23:59.760 --> 1:24:03.120
<v Speaker 2>the asked. He had always you know, used machines and

1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:08.280
<v Speaker 2>his signature Juno piano kind of sound that kind of

1:24:08.280 --> 1:24:12.439
<v Speaker 2>featured mostly drum machine and uh and piano in his voice.

1:24:13.439 --> 1:24:16.479
<v Speaker 2>So he wanted to make a more band oriented thing.

1:24:16.720 --> 1:24:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And I would say it was pleasant. He did not

1:24:22.720 --> 1:24:25.840
<v Speaker 2>argue a lot. He was very positive. Uh. Probably the

1:24:25.840 --> 1:24:29.960
<v Speaker 2>most difficulty we had was was in the mixing. He

1:24:29.960 --> 1:24:35.200
<v Speaker 2>he turned into Bruce Springsteen and and and had just

1:24:35.600 --> 1:24:39.040
<v Speaker 2>clear mountains told me his stories about Bruce once twenty

1:24:39.080 --> 1:24:42.880
<v Speaker 2>mixes snare up, one dB, snare down, one dB based,

1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:46.760
<v Speaker 2>drum up, one dB based down, one snare up. You

1:24:46.800 --> 1:24:51.920
<v Speaker 2>know these take all these combinations home. We had a

1:24:51.920 --> 1:24:54.760
<v Speaker 2>little bit of that getting the mixes to where he

1:24:54.840 --> 1:25:00.240
<v Speaker 2>was happy, but that was the only thing that And

1:25:00.600 --> 1:25:03.959
<v Speaker 2>there was all of the wonderful experiences of these friends

1:25:04.600 --> 1:25:14.000
<v Speaker 2>that he had come in as guests, you know, Jerry Garcia, Yeah.

1:25:12.640 --> 1:25:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember anything you might have told him to do.

1:25:15.120 --> 1:25:18.760
<v Speaker 1>To what degree your he and prints are on the.

1:25:18.640 --> 1:25:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Record, No, I mean I think that probably more than anything.

1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:26.280
<v Speaker 2>But he came to me because of my talent with

1:25:26.320 --> 1:25:29.519
<v Speaker 2>working with bands, which which is how to make a

1:25:29.640 --> 1:25:32.920
<v Speaker 2>set up. You know that everybody can do. Any studio

1:25:32.960 --> 1:25:36.120
<v Speaker 2>set up where the band gets to play together is

1:25:37.400 --> 1:25:40.240
<v Speaker 2>that's a thing all of its own. And we did

1:25:40.280 --> 1:25:42.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that at Criteria, a lot of that.

1:25:42.920 --> 1:25:45.479
<v Speaker 2>That's one of my things that I missed so much today.

1:25:45.520 --> 1:25:48.240
<v Speaker 2>You just don't hear that much of what happens when

1:25:48.280 --> 1:25:52.200
<v Speaker 2>everybody's playing in the same room, go gos all around

1:25:52.240 --> 1:25:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and leak each here and there, and looking at each

1:25:54.920 --> 1:26:00.960
<v Speaker 2>other and changing arrangements on the spot. It's a different style.

1:26:01.760 --> 1:26:03.439
<v Speaker 2>It creates a different kind of urgency.

1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:06.920
<v Speaker 1>And what about the issue of leakage, et cetera.

1:26:08.960 --> 1:26:12.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, you realize after you become a good mixer that,

1:26:13.080 --> 1:26:15.120
<v Speaker 2>oh jeez, this guitar needs a little bit of a

1:26:15.240 --> 1:26:17.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of an echo. And I don't want the kick

1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:21.240
<v Speaker 2>drum to really be that dry. It sounds kind of lonely.

1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:24.679
<v Speaker 2>And when you make us set up the right way,

1:26:24.840 --> 1:26:27.320
<v Speaker 2>it's all built in. And when you go back to

1:26:27.320 --> 1:26:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Tom Dowd's you know Leonyard Skannard, Almond Brothers, those two.

1:26:34.400 --> 1:26:37.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean we used to say he wasn't that great

1:26:37.880 --> 1:26:42.280
<v Speaker 2>of the mixer, but his ability to use leakage amongst

1:26:42.320 --> 1:26:45.880
<v Speaker 2>the instruments and create a sound that's you know, we

1:26:45.920 --> 1:26:48.040
<v Speaker 2>always say, if you can make a record that in

1:26:48.080 --> 1:26:51.880
<v Speaker 2>the first beat we did with melanchapelot one snare drum band,

1:26:52.640 --> 1:26:54.040
<v Speaker 2>you know what the song is and you know what

1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:56.120
<v Speaker 2>the band is. And that was something that Tom could

1:26:56.160 --> 1:27:00.520
<v Speaker 2>do where he created these signatures that were immediately wreckorzable,

1:27:02.200 --> 1:27:03.920
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of that's leak each you know.

1:27:05.920 --> 1:27:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Go a little bit deeper on the leakage for those

1:27:07.960 --> 1:27:09.800
<v Speaker 1>people aren't sophisticated enough.

1:27:10.960 --> 1:27:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, when you like, studio will be, which is where

1:27:15.960 --> 1:27:23.040
<v Speaker 2>I think Layla was made. Minassis I did a Firefall

1:27:23.080 --> 1:27:26.200
<v Speaker 2>record there. They it's a setup that's just one room

1:27:26.560 --> 1:27:28.559
<v Speaker 2>and in the corner there's a booth that looks like

1:27:28.560 --> 1:27:31.439
<v Speaker 2>a tiki bar that the drums go in and it's

1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:35.120
<v Speaker 2>a dead little nothing, probably great for an R and

1:27:35.160 --> 1:27:39.640
<v Speaker 2>B sound, really tight, and then there's a piano with

1:27:39.760 --> 1:27:42.960
<v Speaker 2>a set of of baffles that go around it and

1:27:43.479 --> 1:27:45.960
<v Speaker 2>blankets to go over it, and there's a place where

1:27:45.960 --> 1:27:48.880
<v Speaker 2>you put the guitar. It's this like time tested way

1:27:48.920 --> 1:27:52.000
<v Speaker 2>that you do a setup in this room. And then

1:27:52.040 --> 1:27:56.640
<v Speaker 2>there's certain microphones that use that aren't really tight patterns.

1:27:57.120 --> 1:28:00.479
<v Speaker 2>They pick up a little bit around them, and that's

1:28:00.680 --> 1:28:03.720
<v Speaker 2>their joy is that they're that way. And when you

1:28:03.920 --> 1:28:07.320
<v Speaker 2>put that room together in this configuration with these instruments,

1:28:08.200 --> 1:28:13.519
<v Speaker 2>it makes a sound that sounds unified. It's the guitar

1:28:13.960 --> 1:28:15.760
<v Speaker 2>mic picks a little bit of the snare and the

1:28:15.840 --> 1:28:19.519
<v Speaker 2>high hat up the vocal mic in the room. Of course,

1:28:19.520 --> 1:28:21.519
<v Speaker 2>that gets all kinds of stuff in it, and maybe

1:28:21.520 --> 1:28:23.559
<v Speaker 2>you have to turn that off and overdub it.

1:28:24.960 --> 1:28:27.280
<v Speaker 1>So how do you overdub if there's leakage?

1:28:28.720 --> 1:28:33.559
<v Speaker 2>You can't, you know, you punch in. It depends, but

1:28:33.640 --> 1:28:37.479
<v Speaker 2>generally speaking you have to be very careful. We would

1:28:37.479 --> 1:28:39.439
<v Speaker 2>do things like punching the whole band, which is totally

1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:41.800
<v Speaker 2>ridiculous if you don't have a click. But you know,

1:28:41.840 --> 1:28:45.120
<v Speaker 2>we were doing crazy things in those days. That was

1:28:45.560 --> 1:28:50.280
<v Speaker 2>part of the joy of experimenting at Criteria.

1:28:51.080 --> 1:28:53.719
<v Speaker 1>So tell me about mixing. What's the key to mixing?

1:28:56.080 --> 1:29:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean it comes for me. It comes from

1:29:00.200 --> 1:29:05.560
<v Speaker 2>this place of painted with air again, so you're realizing,

1:29:06.120 --> 1:29:10.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's the issue of the monitors, right. So

1:29:10.720 --> 1:29:13.040
<v Speaker 2>everybody's got their pair of monitors that they kind of

1:29:13.040 --> 1:29:14.840
<v Speaker 2>trust that this is what's going to get you out

1:29:14.840 --> 1:29:19.280
<v Speaker 2>the door and sounded good in the car. So working

1:29:19.280 --> 1:29:21.679
<v Speaker 2>from the back to the front, you need a pair

1:29:21.680 --> 1:29:26.479
<v Speaker 2>of monitors that you understand in an acoustic situation. Then

1:29:28.160 --> 1:29:33.080
<v Speaker 2>the next problem is you're taking something that is one

1:29:33.160 --> 1:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty decibels loud, hugely loud, and you're reducing

1:29:38.439 --> 1:29:41.200
<v Speaker 2>it so that it sounds that loud when you play

1:29:41.200 --> 1:29:46.639
<v Speaker 2>it in these little air pods, which you know don't

1:29:47.160 --> 1:29:51.120
<v Speaker 2>reproduce any kind of dynamic range. That process of squeezing

1:29:51.160 --> 1:29:54.280
<v Speaker 2>it down taking their dynamic range away so that now

1:29:54.360 --> 1:29:57.559
<v Speaker 2>you can put all of those little tiny elements that

1:29:57.600 --> 1:29:59.639
<v Speaker 2>sound big together.

1:30:03.360 --> 1:30:03.760
<v Speaker 1>It's a.

1:30:05.640 --> 1:30:08.519
<v Speaker 2>Lot of trial and error. I think that I listened

1:30:08.600 --> 1:30:13.720
<v Speaker 2>to Chrys Lord Algy he did a podcast on the

1:30:13.800 --> 1:30:16.800
<v Speaker 2>other day, and and you know, and I admire him

1:30:16.840 --> 1:30:20.080
<v Speaker 2>so much. He's mixed some records for me, and he's amazing,

1:30:20.600 --> 1:30:24.720
<v Speaker 2>and he has developed a way that he channels all

1:30:24.760 --> 1:30:29.320
<v Speaker 2>this stuff in like I'm describing, he reduces it down

1:30:29.400 --> 1:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>to a certain number of things that he's going to

1:30:31.240 --> 1:30:34.640
<v Speaker 2>look at. He pre mixes sections and gets it so

1:30:34.680 --> 1:30:38.160
<v Speaker 2>it's manageable. Then he goes into his last set of

1:30:38.240 --> 1:30:40.559
<v Speaker 2>things that he knows what they do to get them

1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:45.240
<v Speaker 2>down so they fit together. And that's what I would do,

1:30:45.360 --> 1:30:47.439
<v Speaker 2>but I would have to do a different kind of

1:30:47.439 --> 1:30:50.040
<v Speaker 2>that thing for each project in order that it would

1:30:50.080 --> 1:30:53.880
<v Speaker 2>sound totally different. And this would be where I would

1:30:53.880 --> 1:30:57.120
<v Speaker 2>say to Melichamp, let's have Clear Mountain do this mix.

1:30:57.200 --> 1:30:59.639
<v Speaker 2>Why are we just fooling around in our little studio

1:30:59.720 --> 1:31:02.240
<v Speaker 2>here in Indiana when we could throw it out to

1:31:02.960 --> 1:31:05.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't want it to sound like everybody else's record done.

1:31:05.600 --> 1:31:09.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't like those SSL boards. They sound crappy. It's

1:31:09.560 --> 1:31:11.280
<v Speaker 2>got to be more open than that. You know. It's

1:31:11.320 --> 1:31:14.160
<v Speaker 2>like this is a where you get into the what

1:31:14.240 --> 1:31:17.200
<v Speaker 2>makes horse races.

1:31:16.240 --> 1:31:18.200
<v Speaker 1>And what is Clear Mountains magic.

1:31:21.200 --> 1:31:24.639
<v Speaker 2>It's very similar to, I think, to what Chris talks about.

1:31:24.760 --> 1:31:27.599
<v Speaker 2>It's this saying to your client. You know, he sees

1:31:27.640 --> 1:31:31.479
<v Speaker 2>a song every day it comes in and he looks

1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:34.080
<v Speaker 2>at it and says, these are the parts that I

1:31:34.120 --> 1:31:37.720
<v Speaker 2>think are significant, and these are less, and let me

1:31:37.760 --> 1:31:41.240
<v Speaker 2>squeeze this down to a manageable form. And then he

1:31:41.320 --> 1:31:47.599
<v Speaker 2>runs it through I think very similar colorations, compressors limit

1:31:47.680 --> 1:31:53.360
<v Speaker 2>or's echo so that he gets because the low end

1:31:53.400 --> 1:31:56.200
<v Speaker 2>is kind of what regulates your whole record. If you

1:31:56.240 --> 1:32:00.920
<v Speaker 2>can get your basin, bass drum centered so they're taking

1:32:01.000 --> 1:32:03.960
<v Speaker 2>up the right amount of space, everything else follows. And

1:32:04.680 --> 1:32:07.200
<v Speaker 2>that's the hard part, and that's where both of those

1:32:07.200 --> 1:32:08.439
<v Speaker 2>guys are really good at it.

1:32:15.520 --> 1:32:18.400
<v Speaker 1>So let's say you hire a third party mixer. Do

1:32:18.439 --> 1:32:21.120
<v Speaker 1>you give him any instruction or just say here's the tapes,

1:32:21.200 --> 1:32:21.760
<v Speaker 1>go at it.

1:32:23.960 --> 1:32:26.920
<v Speaker 2>I've done both. As hard for me as a producer

1:32:27.000 --> 1:32:30.840
<v Speaker 2>to say, go at it. I got to say that

1:32:31.680 --> 1:32:34.919
<v Speaker 2>generally speaking, I know what I think are the elements

1:32:34.960 --> 1:32:38.800
<v Speaker 2>that should be featured. And if I ran into this

1:32:38.880 --> 1:32:42.720
<v Speaker 2>with Tom Lord aunt you on a record that I

1:32:42.880 --> 1:32:48.240
<v Speaker 2>was making for MCA, and I think he was right,

1:32:48.800 --> 1:32:50.880
<v Speaker 2>But you know, my view of it was, you know,

1:32:50.920 --> 1:32:53.040
<v Speaker 2>all these things that I thought needed to be featured

1:32:53.040 --> 1:32:54.840
<v Speaker 2>at certain moments, and he was like, this is all

1:32:55.040 --> 1:32:59.360
<v Speaker 2>this is not important. You're missing it. So maybe I

1:32:59.400 --> 1:32:59.880
<v Speaker 2>was too close.

1:33:00.080 --> 1:33:02.160
<v Speaker 1>So how do you decide whether to mix it yourself

1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:03.559
<v Speaker 1>or to give it to someone else.

1:33:05.160 --> 1:33:12.479
<v Speaker 2>Usually that's somebody else's decision. I had a label at

1:33:12.600 --> 1:33:16.960
<v Speaker 2>MCA for five years, and you know, I could make

1:33:16.960 --> 1:33:19.960
<v Speaker 2>my own decisions there for those things. But generally speaking,

1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:26.080
<v Speaker 2>when you're in in co ownership like I was with mcaight,

1:33:26.160 --> 1:33:28.080
<v Speaker 2>you have a lot of people that are weighing in.

1:33:30.200 --> 1:33:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's part of the problem, is the communal aspect

1:33:33.240 --> 1:33:36.519
<v Speaker 2>of of the way a lot of those things used

1:33:36.560 --> 1:33:38.960
<v Speaker 2>to work. Especially I saw less of that if you

1:33:39.040 --> 1:33:44.400
<v Speaker 2>worked for Warner Brothers or or or even Atlantic.

1:33:46.000 --> 1:33:50.280
<v Speaker 1>So okay, we've been through so many evolutions recording equipment.

1:33:51.240 --> 1:33:54.439
<v Speaker 1>You know, when you're mixing, to what degree are you

1:33:54.560 --> 1:34:00.080
<v Speaker 1>using outboard equipment outboard effects, Well.

1:34:00.160 --> 1:34:07.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, it depends on the era, right when you know,

1:34:07.520 --> 1:34:10.599
<v Speaker 2>when I started mixing, say in nineteen eighty eighty two

1:34:11.400 --> 1:34:16.360
<v Speaker 2>American full we were using you know, a Trient console,

1:34:16.640 --> 1:34:22.880
<v Speaker 2>a big a range triedent antique console and all kinds

1:34:22.880 --> 1:34:27.400
<v Speaker 2>of fair childs in eleven seventy six compressors and everything

1:34:27.439 --> 1:34:30.799
<v Speaker 2>had had stuff on it. There was nothing that was flat,

1:34:32.400 --> 1:34:36.559
<v Speaker 2>and generally there'd be API equalizers on this thing, and

1:34:36.600 --> 1:34:39.479
<v Speaker 2>then there'd be a knave on that one, and you

1:34:39.520 --> 1:34:43.000
<v Speaker 2>know a lot of cross polonization to get a certain

1:34:43.080 --> 1:34:51.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of tone. That all became much easier as it

1:34:51.320 --> 1:34:55.639
<v Speaker 2>turned into good digital. Now, good digital for me didn't

1:34:55.640 --> 1:35:03.800
<v Speaker 2>happen until probably around maybe twenty ten eight, whenever Chris

1:35:03.800 --> 1:35:07.040
<v Speaker 2>started putting out his own plugins. It started to make

1:35:07.080 --> 1:35:11.960
<v Speaker 2>more sense. Before that, Waves had some stuff that was good.

1:35:12.600 --> 1:35:15.840
<v Speaker 2>But I think when you finally had engineers weighing in

1:35:15.880 --> 1:35:19.080
<v Speaker 2>with this is the right thing that I do, that

1:35:19.439 --> 1:35:23.040
<v Speaker 2>it really got rich. It got juicy. Before that, I

1:35:23.080 --> 1:35:25.599
<v Speaker 2>started my first pro tool system I had in two thousand.

1:35:26.760 --> 1:35:32.120
<v Speaker 2>I bought because I had a daughter, and two thousand

1:35:32.280 --> 1:35:34.240
<v Speaker 2>and I knew that I didn't want to spend a

1:35:34.280 --> 1:35:35.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of time in the studio and I want to

1:35:35.880 --> 1:35:38.799
<v Speaker 2>be able to shut a mix down after four hours

1:35:38.840 --> 1:35:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and go home, And so I bought a pro tool system.

1:35:43.600 --> 1:35:46.680
<v Speaker 2>And that didn't work that well. It was okay, but

1:35:47.240 --> 1:35:55.080
<v Speaker 2>the early systems were kind of thin. So but now

1:35:55.200 --> 1:35:57.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, you look at what the power of the

1:35:57.760 --> 1:36:02.720
<v Speaker 2>modern mixing board is amazing. How hard I used to

1:36:02.840 --> 1:36:07.320
<v Speaker 2>work to get a simple explosive snare sound. You can

1:36:07.360 --> 1:36:11.320
<v Speaker 2>probably do it in thirty seconds with what's available today.

1:36:11.520 --> 1:36:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Before it's taking me a couple of hours to set

1:36:13.800 --> 1:36:14.080
<v Speaker 2>it up.

1:36:14.920 --> 1:36:15.640
<v Speaker 1>And why is that?

1:36:17.760 --> 1:36:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Because you're dealing with stuff that really isn't that powerful.

1:36:21.080 --> 1:36:24.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's you're lucky if you can get ten

1:36:24.520 --> 1:36:29.439
<v Speaker 2>dB of compression out of an analog compression compressor, and

1:36:29.520 --> 1:36:32.120
<v Speaker 2>maybe the release time is slow enough that it doesn't

1:36:32.160 --> 1:36:34.920
<v Speaker 2>make something explode. You want something that opens up a

1:36:34.960 --> 1:36:40.479
<v Speaker 2>certain way. And all this stuff's immediately available with the

1:36:40.520 --> 1:36:43.400
<v Speaker 2>digital stuff because you just go in and you crank

1:36:43.439 --> 1:36:45.240
<v Speaker 2>in how deep you want to go and how fast

1:36:45.240 --> 1:36:48.599
<v Speaker 2>you want it to let go. And that's just one example.

1:36:48.720 --> 1:36:50.559
<v Speaker 2>Let alone the echo that you might put put a

1:36:50.560 --> 1:36:52.200
<v Speaker 2>gate on it, that well, let's just make it a

1:36:52.200 --> 1:36:56.519
<v Speaker 2>little longer, a little shorter, a little brighter before it

1:36:56.560 --> 1:36:58.439
<v Speaker 2>would be all look go short in the plate. We

1:36:58.479 --> 1:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>would do it with EMT plates and now let's put

1:37:03.200 --> 1:37:05.360
<v Speaker 2>some gates on it. But well, jeez, the gates aren't

1:37:05.400 --> 1:37:08.519
<v Speaker 2>releasing right, and you know it would just be badly.

1:37:09.800 --> 1:37:14.559
<v Speaker 1>And to what degree are you equipment agnostic or you

1:37:14.600 --> 1:37:16.439
<v Speaker 1>want to work on a specific board.

1:37:21.560 --> 1:37:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, now you know, if I was going to I

1:37:23.640 --> 1:37:27.280
<v Speaker 2>don't do any of this anymore. So, but today, if

1:37:27.280 --> 1:37:30.120
<v Speaker 2>I was going to mix a record, I would just

1:37:30.160 --> 1:37:33.080
<v Speaker 2>have a PROTOL system. I would. It would be no board.

1:37:33.200 --> 1:37:37.439
<v Speaker 2>It's just that's all I would want the stuff that's available.

1:37:37.479 --> 1:37:39.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I still hear people talking about running it

1:37:39.479 --> 1:37:42.679
<v Speaker 2>back through some analogus something or other that they think

1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:45.160
<v Speaker 2>that makes a different sight. I don't think I believe

1:37:45.200 --> 1:37:47.840
<v Speaker 2>in that somebody else can run it through.

1:37:48.680 --> 1:37:50.879
<v Speaker 1>Tell me more about not doing this anymore.

1:37:55.200 --> 1:37:57.439
<v Speaker 2>See what I'm seventy four, Well I will be the

1:37:57.479 --> 1:38:06.880
<v Speaker 2>day after tomorrow, and happy birthday, Thank you. I would

1:38:06.920 --> 1:38:08.880
<v Speaker 2>say that. You know, this has been a process since

1:38:08.920 --> 1:38:17.360
<v Speaker 2>about twenty fourteen of just slowing down. Well, my wife

1:38:17.400 --> 1:38:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and I didn't have children for a long time. We

1:38:19.400 --> 1:38:23.040
<v Speaker 2>both were enjoying just the two of us, and up

1:38:23.120 --> 1:38:28.400
<v Speaker 2>until nineteen ninety six, until after Hoodie's first big record,

1:38:28.840 --> 1:38:32.160
<v Speaker 2>we didn't have any children. And then, you know, obviously,

1:38:32.439 --> 1:38:34.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think some of it was the fact

1:38:34.320 --> 1:38:36.400
<v Speaker 2>that we didn't really care about having children. Then there

1:38:36.439 --> 1:38:39.320
<v Speaker 2>was also the biological clock, oh, if we're going to

1:38:39.320 --> 1:38:40.960
<v Speaker 2>do it, we better do it. And there was also

1:38:41.000 --> 1:38:42.680
<v Speaker 2>that oh my god, we just got to check for

1:38:43.720 --> 1:38:50.000
<v Speaker 2>wow from the Hoodie record, and it was kind of like, well,

1:38:50.000 --> 1:38:51.400
<v Speaker 2>what are you going to do with your life now?

1:38:51.560 --> 1:38:54.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, now that you have some financial security which

1:38:54.760 --> 1:38:58.840
<v Speaker 2>we had never had before. We lived well and we

1:38:58.880 --> 1:39:00.840
<v Speaker 2>always saved a lot because we knew that a year

1:39:00.880 --> 1:39:03.000
<v Speaker 2>from now it could be all gone. And that's the

1:39:03.000 --> 1:39:06.920
<v Speaker 2>way we lived. Then we decided to have kids.

1:39:07.080 --> 1:39:07.519
<v Speaker 1>We had.

1:39:08.040 --> 1:39:11.000
<v Speaker 2>We have a son who's twenty eight and or will

1:39:11.040 --> 1:39:13.880
<v Speaker 2>be in a week, two weeks, and a daughter who's

1:39:13.880 --> 1:39:19.840
<v Speaker 2>twenty four. They're both out of school. And so I

1:39:19.880 --> 1:39:24.559
<v Speaker 2>think that what happened to me was the process of

1:39:24.760 --> 1:39:28.559
<v Speaker 2>making records, which is tedious and if you really want

1:39:28.600 --> 1:39:31.840
<v Speaker 2>to do it, well, it's pretty all consuming. It's not

1:39:31.920 --> 1:39:37.439
<v Speaker 2>something you just casually do. I grew tired of it,

1:39:37.520 --> 1:39:44.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, making vocal comps. It's hard, and it just

1:39:45.120 --> 1:39:47.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think I just ran my course with it.

1:39:48.240 --> 1:39:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying I would never do it again if

1:39:49.880 --> 1:39:53.880
<v Speaker 2>somebody came along. That was, you know, something that really

1:39:54.000 --> 1:39:56.240
<v Speaker 2>lit me up that I wouldn't go in the studio

1:39:56.280 --> 1:39:58.120
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of weeks or a month, you know.

1:39:58.720 --> 1:40:06.240
<v Speaker 2>But right now, between the climate of what you make

1:40:06.960 --> 1:40:12.280
<v Speaker 2>being a record producer, which is pretty negligible, you know,

1:40:12.320 --> 1:40:17.719
<v Speaker 2>it's all streaming based and there's not much money.

1:40:17.479 --> 1:40:23.240
<v Speaker 1>In it, how hard was it to let go? Very hard?

1:40:24.560 --> 1:40:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Very hard.

1:40:26.000 --> 1:40:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I would say that it probably has been ten years

1:40:29.200 --> 1:40:33.400
<v Speaker 2>of of trying to find other things that I find

1:40:33.800 --> 1:40:40.240
<v Speaker 2>enjoyable and meaningful. Yeah, that kind of that's been the

1:40:40.600 --> 1:40:45.000
<v Speaker 2>replacing it because I'm an active person. I I like

1:40:45.040 --> 1:40:47.719
<v Speaker 2>doing all of stuff. We've bought a second home here

1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:54.000
<v Speaker 2>in Channel Islands and we have a beautiful place to be.

1:40:54.040 --> 1:40:58.479
<v Speaker 2>It's where I'm at today and I enjoy There's a

1:40:58.479 --> 1:41:01.479
<v Speaker 2>whole different kind of world. But I never We used

1:41:01.479 --> 1:41:03.360
<v Speaker 2>to have boats when we lived in Miami. I had

1:41:04.439 --> 1:41:07.280
<v Speaker 2>a three bedroom home on a canal with a sailboat.

1:41:07.520 --> 1:41:10.200
<v Speaker 2>And part of the criteria reality was my wife and

1:41:10.200 --> 1:41:12.639
<v Speaker 2>I going out in are little inflatable zodiac and water

1:41:12.760 --> 1:41:16.200
<v Speaker 2>skiing in the inner coastal before I went into the studio.

1:41:16.840 --> 1:41:20.280
<v Speaker 2>That was you know, we loved that, and so that's

1:41:20.320 --> 1:41:23.760
<v Speaker 2>coming back. We just bought a powerboat. We went out

1:41:23.760 --> 1:41:27.840
<v Speaker 2>to Santa Cruz Island yesterday and with ten other boats,

1:41:27.960 --> 1:41:31.120
<v Speaker 2>had a great time. Some findy other things that I

1:41:31.200 --> 1:41:35.360
<v Speaker 2>enjoys challenging because I was never this kind of a

1:41:35.400 --> 1:41:40.120
<v Speaker 2>boating person, so I don't know much about navigation, fixing things.

1:41:40.120 --> 1:41:42.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm a fix it guy. I know a lot about

1:41:43.400 --> 1:41:47.000
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of handyman stuff. So taking care of the

1:41:47.040 --> 1:41:48.439
<v Speaker 2>boat's interesting.

1:41:49.800 --> 1:41:53.479
<v Speaker 1>To what degree letting go was because the generations change

1:41:53.520 --> 1:41:55.719
<v Speaker 1>and there's not as many opportunities for work.

1:41:58.240 --> 1:42:01.519
<v Speaker 2>I think he nailed it. That's totally it. Nobody was

1:42:01.560 --> 1:42:05.760
<v Speaker 2>calling me up, you know, somebody, somebody that I might like.

1:42:06.720 --> 1:42:08.479
<v Speaker 2>I'd say, well, i'll give you a hand, and they

1:42:08.560 --> 1:42:11.120
<v Speaker 2>might give me, you know, a thousand dollars to do

1:42:11.160 --> 1:42:13.000
<v Speaker 2>a sount a song, and I'd spend a couple of

1:42:13.080 --> 1:42:15.920
<v Speaker 2>days on it, and it wouldn't be about the money.

1:42:15.920 --> 1:42:17.439
<v Speaker 2>It would just be about, well, I like the guy,

1:42:17.479 --> 1:42:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and I thought he needed a leg up. You know,

1:42:19.360 --> 1:42:21.880
<v Speaker 2>I'll see if I can help. I did that quite

1:42:21.880 --> 1:42:28.080
<v Speaker 2>a bit over the last few years, and.

1:42:27.960 --> 1:42:28.759
<v Speaker 1>That was okay.

1:42:28.920 --> 1:42:32.360
<v Speaker 2>You know I think that. I mean, I almost hate

1:42:32.360 --> 1:42:40.200
<v Speaker 2>to say this. I love music. I love making music.

1:42:40.280 --> 1:42:43.160
<v Speaker 2>I love being a part of hit records, and I

1:42:43.200 --> 1:42:47.200
<v Speaker 2>love getting the paycheck. And I think all of that

1:42:47.760 --> 1:42:52.519
<v Speaker 2>is hard to come by today. It's every every one

1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:55.880
<v Speaker 2>of those things is hard to get at now. It's good.

1:42:56.200 --> 1:42:58.519
<v Speaker 2>Did what you talk about all the time in your

1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:01.280
<v Speaker 2>when you write about how what you have to do

1:43:01.360 --> 1:43:07.800
<v Speaker 2>in order to make it through. It's it's everyone has

1:43:07.840 --> 1:43:11.960
<v Speaker 2>the ability to get themselves out there along with two

1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:16.760
<v Speaker 2>million other people and to get through it all, and

1:43:16.800 --> 1:43:19.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the solution is. Part of me

1:43:19.080 --> 1:43:22.640
<v Speaker 2>thinks sometimes that we need more curating of people that

1:43:22.680 --> 1:43:24.760
<v Speaker 2>we respect, and I don't know who that person is.

1:43:24.960 --> 1:43:27.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, my daughter's good at it. She comes to

1:43:28.000 --> 1:43:30.519
<v Speaker 2>me with the list of things that Wow, where did

1:43:30.600 --> 1:43:35.720
<v Speaker 2>you find this person? You know, I mean a couple

1:43:35.720 --> 1:43:38.080
<v Speaker 2>of years ago, she came there with this artist, King Princess,

1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:40.920
<v Speaker 2>who was like, Wow, this is amazing. Why isn't this

1:43:41.000 --> 1:43:44.880
<v Speaker 2>person huge? You know, she's a great writer, a great singer,

1:43:45.080 --> 1:43:49.320
<v Speaker 2>a sound that's totally unique, and she does okay. You know,

1:43:49.400 --> 1:43:53.919
<v Speaker 2>but I would have thought that would have been anyhow,

1:43:54.200 --> 1:43:55.920
<v Speaker 2>But that world is a little different.

1:43:56.000 --> 1:43:58.799
<v Speaker 1>Right now, Let's go back to the technology for minutes,

1:43:58.800 --> 1:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>taking blog versus digital and vinyl. What are your thoughts

1:44:03.400 --> 1:44:04.240
<v Speaker 1>about all those?

1:44:06.880 --> 1:44:16.200
<v Speaker 2>Well? As a producer, recording engineer, I hate vinyl. Vinyl

1:44:16.280 --> 1:44:19.800
<v Speaker 2>is a nightmare. If you're trying to make a vinyl

1:44:19.840 --> 1:44:23.960
<v Speaker 2>record and have it represent anything close to what you mixed,

1:44:24.800 --> 1:44:29.879
<v Speaker 2>you should just lower your standards because the pressing process

1:44:29.960 --> 1:44:33.040
<v Speaker 2>makes it into an entirely different animal. Now, a lot

1:44:33.080 --> 1:44:37.720
<v Speaker 2>of people like the way that animal sounds. But you know,

1:44:37.760 --> 1:44:42.960
<v Speaker 2>when we got out of the the analog thing. I

1:44:43.000 --> 1:44:45.719
<v Speaker 2>love the way analog records sound. I love old equipment

1:44:46.040 --> 1:44:49.040
<v Speaker 2>that and I love new equipment that's made with all

1:44:49.080 --> 1:44:52.160
<v Speaker 2>the things that I understand about. Maybe we're going to

1:44:52.200 --> 1:44:55.200
<v Speaker 2>talk for a second about the fact that transformers create

1:44:55.920 --> 1:45:00.280
<v Speaker 2>a distorted waveform. It will make a square wave into

1:45:00.320 --> 1:45:03.280
<v Speaker 2>something that looks like a bunch of wiggles. And that

1:45:03.360 --> 1:45:07.080
<v Speaker 2>wiggle is the sound that we all love. And so

1:45:07.760 --> 1:45:12.479
<v Speaker 2>analog is a wonderful thing. It colors and worms. If

1:45:12.479 --> 1:45:14.360
<v Speaker 2>it's what you want or what you need right now,

1:45:14.640 --> 1:45:16.559
<v Speaker 2>I think you should use that stuff along the way.

1:45:17.160 --> 1:45:19.920
<v Speaker 2>New digital stuff does that just as well. It emulates it.

1:45:19.960 --> 1:45:26.720
<v Speaker 2>They've figured out these equations. Now as far as going

1:45:26.760 --> 1:45:31.040
<v Speaker 2>back to tape, give me a break, is that's a wink.

1:45:31.800 --> 1:45:34.719
<v Speaker 2>It's I'm not hearing the difference. So my my hearing

1:45:34.760 --> 1:45:36.720
<v Speaker 2>is not the greatest, but it's good enough to get

1:45:36.720 --> 1:45:41.679
<v Speaker 2>me by, you know. And and I think that better

1:45:41.920 --> 1:45:45.599
<v Speaker 2>better to use that on good microphones, good compressors. If

1:45:45.600 --> 1:45:47.679
<v Speaker 2>you want to use all your analog gear when you record,

1:45:47.760 --> 1:45:49.360
<v Speaker 2>that's great, record it.

1:45:49.600 --> 1:45:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, let's go back to a couple of records.

1:45:54.040 --> 1:45:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Tracy Chapman has huge success with the first album Fast Car.

1:45:58.400 --> 1:46:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Then does not have success, even worked with Jimmie I

1:46:01.520 --> 1:46:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Leven doesn't have success. Then she worked with you and

1:46:05.280 --> 1:46:07.920
<v Speaker 1>has the biggest record of her career. Tell us about that.

1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:20.120
<v Speaker 2>She's a doll. It was, you know, it was. It

1:46:20.160 --> 1:46:23.000
<v Speaker 2>was a wonderful experience. I gotta say, we did it

1:46:23.040 --> 1:46:27.040
<v Speaker 2>in San Francisco, or not in San Francisco. What's the name.

1:46:27.120 --> 1:46:29.400
<v Speaker 2>It's up near Lucas Ranch out in the woods there.

1:46:30.720 --> 1:46:34.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember the studio's name, but old big Neve console.

1:46:35.920 --> 1:46:40.840
<v Speaker 2>She liked recording digitally, so it was a Missubishi thirty

1:46:40.880 --> 1:46:42.280
<v Speaker 2>two track. I think it was the first time I'd

1:46:42.280 --> 1:46:46.360
<v Speaker 2>ever used that particular machine. And that made sense because

1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:51.519
<v Speaker 2>a lot of her material is very quiet. There needed space,

1:46:51.560 --> 1:46:56.160
<v Speaker 2>it needed depth to not be occupied by his or

1:46:56.200 --> 1:47:05.000
<v Speaker 2>tape noise, and so that was okay. She also, like Hornsby,

1:47:05.160 --> 1:47:08.439
<v Speaker 2>wanted to make a record with a band, and in

1:47:08.479 --> 1:47:12.320
<v Speaker 2>the past she had used a band that played after

1:47:12.400 --> 1:47:16.200
<v Speaker 2>she recorded. She like they would like Fast Car was.

1:47:16.640 --> 1:47:20.320
<v Speaker 2>She she played it alone and then Danny Farnkheiser would

1:47:20.320 --> 1:47:21.680
<v Speaker 2>go in and he played the drums to it, and

1:47:21.680 --> 1:47:24.360
<v Speaker 2>then everybody would follow him. And that's the way she

1:47:24.479 --> 1:47:28.439
<v Speaker 2>made her records because she I think was probably not

1:47:28.439 --> 1:47:32.200
<v Speaker 2>comfortable playing with other people. That confused her. I think

1:47:32.240 --> 1:47:36.400
<v Speaker 2>that her being on the road by the time I

1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:39.920
<v Speaker 2>started working with her, she was very comfortable working with

1:47:39.960 --> 1:47:42.920
<v Speaker 2>playing with people. And she had come up with this

1:47:42.960 --> 1:47:47.879
<v Speaker 2>set of material with a band that they were friends.

1:47:47.960 --> 1:47:53.280
<v Speaker 2>It was a unit, you know. So that was really

1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:58.040
<v Speaker 2>nice because she she basically came in with something that

1:47:58.479 --> 1:48:02.920
<v Speaker 2>I recorded live, and we kept a lot of it live.

1:48:07.200 --> 1:48:16.720
<v Speaker 2>She was picky, but not unduly, you know. There were

1:48:16.760 --> 1:48:19.200
<v Speaker 2>ideas that I would put forth about, you know, how

1:48:21.160 --> 1:48:25.160
<v Speaker 2>we might record her voice and her guitar together. Because

1:48:25.160 --> 1:48:27.160
<v Speaker 2>we did a lot of it and kept everything. We

1:48:27.240 --> 1:48:32.439
<v Speaker 2>didn't overdone many guitar vocals, as I recall, so a

1:48:32.479 --> 1:48:34.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of it was built around whether or not we

1:48:34.360 --> 1:48:41.120
<v Speaker 2>liked the vocal and the guitar performance, and a mixing

1:48:41.160 --> 1:48:47.639
<v Speaker 2>process got a little trickier. And there was this one

1:48:47.760 --> 1:48:53.320
<v Speaker 2>song called The Promise that was just her playing acoustic guitar,

1:48:54.280 --> 1:49:00.760
<v Speaker 2>that amazing song that she I don't know, I never

1:49:00.800 --> 1:49:03.840
<v Speaker 2>really did understand exactly what she was looking for. I

1:49:03.920 --> 1:49:07.400
<v Speaker 2>think that probably that was okay, but we played it

1:49:07.439 --> 1:49:11.120
<v Speaker 2>every day for I'm going to say at least a month.

1:49:11.800 --> 1:49:13.720
<v Speaker 2>While we were mixing, it would be the end of

1:49:13.720 --> 1:49:15.120
<v Speaker 2>the day, Okay, let's do a couple of takes to

1:49:15.160 --> 1:49:18.120
<v Speaker 2>the promise, and then she'd come in the next day

1:49:18.200 --> 1:49:19.960
<v Speaker 2>and it was long. It was like a six minute song,

1:49:20.080 --> 1:49:23.400
<v Speaker 2>and she would come in the next day and say, no,

1:49:23.439 --> 1:49:25.639
<v Speaker 2>that's not it, We'll have to do it again. And

1:49:25.680 --> 1:49:29.479
<v Speaker 2>that went on for quite a while. Eventually, she uh,

1:49:30.080 --> 1:49:35.040
<v Speaker 2>after about I don't know, maybe one hundred takes, she

1:49:35.280 --> 1:49:37.920
<v Speaker 2>found something that she liked and we dressed it up

1:49:37.920 --> 1:49:47.080
<v Speaker 2>with violin and cello and a few other things. Beautiful song.

1:49:47.120 --> 1:49:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Though you have any idea that the album and give

1:49:50.920 --> 1:49:54.560
<v Speaker 1>me one reason we're going to be so huge?

1:49:55.160 --> 1:50:00.880
<v Speaker 2>None? And the thing was that, you know, everybody was, well,

1:50:01.080 --> 1:50:05.080
<v Speaker 2>we don't have a single, and because all the songs

1:50:05.080 --> 1:50:09.840
<v Speaker 2>were you know, five, six, seven, eight minutes long, and

1:50:09.880 --> 1:50:13.160
<v Speaker 2>she would not editing was not in the thing in

1:50:13.240 --> 1:50:16.880
<v Speaker 2>the equation, and she said, you guys will figure it out. Well,

1:50:17.000 --> 1:50:19.720
<v Speaker 2>I think give me one reason. Was three minutes and

1:50:19.800 --> 1:50:22.240
<v Speaker 2>forty five seconds was the only song on the record

1:50:22.720 --> 1:50:27.559
<v Speaker 2>that was short enough. And so the record company kind

1:50:27.560 --> 1:50:30.439
<v Speaker 2>of threw their arms up and said, well, let's just

1:50:30.479 --> 1:50:33.360
<v Speaker 2>put this one out because it's the only one that's

1:50:33.400 --> 1:50:35.840
<v Speaker 2>shortened for radio, and she won't let us edit anything else.

1:50:35.880 --> 1:50:37.680
<v Speaker 2>There were a couple other songs that they liked, but

1:50:37.760 --> 1:50:42.840
<v Speaker 2>she wouldn't, so anyhow, they put it out and it was,

1:50:43.400 --> 1:50:47.280
<v Speaker 2>as I recall it, it made a tour of the formats.

1:50:47.280 --> 1:50:50.760
<v Speaker 2>It might have whatever it was at Triple A and

1:50:50.800 --> 1:50:54.040
<v Speaker 2>then adult and then pop I think it was, or

1:50:54.080 --> 1:50:58.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe college, Triple A adult pop. It went through like

1:50:59.000 --> 1:51:02.000
<v Speaker 2>four different formats that each one of them lasted probably

1:51:02.040 --> 1:51:03.760
<v Speaker 2>three or four months while it worked its way up

1:51:03.800 --> 1:51:05.439
<v Speaker 2>the chart. Then it would go to this one and

1:51:06.760 --> 1:51:10.439
<v Speaker 2>so over a year it had a year of on

1:51:10.560 --> 1:51:14.320
<v Speaker 2>the charts, And I think that's what what did it?

1:51:14.320 --> 1:51:17.640
<v Speaker 2>It just it just bit by a bit opened up

1:51:17.680 --> 1:51:18.320
<v Speaker 2>another section.

1:51:25.479 --> 1:51:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Now she did not use you on the next album.

1:51:28.280 --> 1:51:30.280
<v Speaker 1>What's it like to have so much success in someone?

1:51:30.360 --> 1:51:33.160
<v Speaker 1>The same thing with Hornsby, although he didn't use a band,

1:51:33.200 --> 1:51:36.240
<v Speaker 1>it was a solo record. Thereafter, what's it like for

1:51:36.280 --> 1:51:38.920
<v Speaker 1>them to say, great, we had used success and then

1:51:38.960 --> 1:51:39.640
<v Speaker 1>they don't call you.

1:51:43.479 --> 1:51:49.320
<v Speaker 2>M I what I was doing? You know? I don't know.

1:51:50.680 --> 1:51:53.879
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's funny because Bruce just mentioned that when

1:51:53.920 --> 1:51:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I saw him recently that he says because he built

1:51:58.160 --> 1:52:00.320
<v Speaker 2>a studio. I think maybe that's part of the answer

1:52:00.360 --> 1:52:03.360
<v Speaker 2>for him. Was after the record that we did, they

1:52:03.400 --> 1:52:07.320
<v Speaker 2>bought this place in Williamsburg in Virginia where he lives now,

1:52:07.760 --> 1:52:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and a large property, and he built a studio. And

1:52:11.640 --> 1:52:13.640
<v Speaker 2>I remember looking at the plans for the studio and

1:52:13.680 --> 1:52:15.559
<v Speaker 2>he hadn't put any kind of a window in between

1:52:15.600 --> 1:52:19.760
<v Speaker 2>the control room and and the recording space. And I

1:52:19.800 --> 1:52:22.479
<v Speaker 2>looked at him and said, you need a window something

1:52:22.680 --> 1:52:24.840
<v Speaker 2>so that you can at least, you know, point at

1:52:24.880 --> 1:52:28.479
<v Speaker 2>somebody to give a cue something. Put a window in

1:52:28.920 --> 1:52:30.719
<v Speaker 2>And he said to me just the other day, he says,

1:52:30.920 --> 1:52:33.880
<v Speaker 2>we have the don game and window. And It's like,

1:52:34.800 --> 1:52:36.639
<v Speaker 2>what do you mean? You know, what are you talking about?

1:52:36.760 --> 1:52:38.559
<v Speaker 2>So he says, we think of you every time that

1:52:38.600 --> 1:52:41.160
<v Speaker 2>we go through that window. You're right, And he said

1:52:41.160 --> 1:52:43.200
<v Speaker 2>I would have used you if it hadn't been for

1:52:43.240 --> 1:52:45.400
<v Speaker 2>the fact. And I forget what the reason was, but

1:52:45.600 --> 1:52:51.400
<v Speaker 2>he kind of apologized for it, not continuing. I don't know,

1:52:51.920 --> 1:52:55.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm a little I'm not sure what I was doing

1:52:55.200 --> 1:52:59.040
<v Speaker 2>at that time. It could have been the whole ninety

1:52:59.080 --> 1:53:02.400
<v Speaker 2>four to six. There were Hoody records in there there

1:53:02.479 --> 1:53:05.640
<v Speaker 2>was me looking for a label deal with Jeff Aldridge

1:53:07.080 --> 1:53:10.960
<v Speaker 2>and Larry Frasen, and I had this thing in my

1:53:11.040 --> 1:53:16.200
<v Speaker 2>head because my my manager at the time. It'll come

1:53:16.200 --> 1:53:24.320
<v Speaker 2>back in a second, Sandy robertson, Yeah, you know, there

1:53:24.320 --> 1:53:26.320
<v Speaker 2>were there were all of these things that I was

1:53:26.920 --> 1:53:30.560
<v Speaker 2>furthering my career or whatever, you know. To who knows,

1:53:31.040 --> 1:53:34.639
<v Speaker 2>it does seem odd. But I know that Tracy was

1:53:34.760 --> 1:53:41.439
<v Speaker 2>upset with me because after the big success with I

1:53:41.439 --> 1:53:43.760
<v Speaker 2>don't think she would mind me sharing this because it

1:53:43.880 --> 1:53:48.760
<v Speaker 2>was a shortcoming on my part. There was an edit

1:53:48.800 --> 1:53:50.920
<v Speaker 2>that was on one of the other songs that they

1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:54.360
<v Speaker 2>thought they could make it work, and she wanted to

1:53:54.520 --> 1:53:59.000
<v Speaker 2>use this new pro Tools system that let you turn

1:53:59.040 --> 1:54:02.920
<v Speaker 2>off the edit things horizontally, which is what we all

1:54:02.960 --> 1:54:05.400
<v Speaker 2>do all over the place. Now, you know, keep the

1:54:05.479 --> 1:54:07.559
<v Speaker 2>drums here, but take the guitar from the first verse.

1:54:07.960 --> 1:54:09.960
<v Speaker 2>She wanted to be able to do that, and I

1:54:10.000 --> 1:54:12.320
<v Speaker 2>didn't know that this was Kate. I thought it was

1:54:12.360 --> 1:54:16.160
<v Speaker 2>just an editing thing, like normal editing, but digital. And

1:54:16.200 --> 1:54:19.600
<v Speaker 2>when I came in too, I've done. She was not

1:54:19.760 --> 1:54:21.640
<v Speaker 2>happy with the fact that I was not up to

1:54:21.680 --> 1:54:27.000
<v Speaker 2>speed on the technology that she wanted to use and

1:54:27.240 --> 1:54:29.599
<v Speaker 2>that might have might have colored the future.

1:54:30.600 --> 1:54:34.000
<v Speaker 1>So tell us about whody.

1:54:34.720 --> 1:54:39.160
<v Speaker 2>Well. Hoody is probably the happiest experience I've ever had,

1:54:41.360 --> 1:54:43.080
<v Speaker 2>and it was at a time in my career where

1:54:43.120 --> 1:54:47.080
<v Speaker 2>things were a little dark. You know. This would have

1:54:47.120 --> 1:54:52.280
<v Speaker 2>been ninety four and Sandy Robertson was a manager i'd

1:54:52.400 --> 1:54:55.480
<v Speaker 2>just started working with. My career had kind of sunk off.

1:54:55.720 --> 1:54:59.280
<v Speaker 2>I'd done quite a few records in Australia that did well,

1:54:59.600 --> 1:55:06.400
<v Speaker 2>was making some money, but people weren't asking me to produce,

1:55:06.880 --> 1:55:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it was like the prices were coming down,

1:55:11.680 --> 1:55:18.040
<v Speaker 2>and so he thought I should try and do something

1:55:18.120 --> 1:55:21.560
<v Speaker 2>more like a Green Day kind of a project. And

1:55:22.440 --> 1:55:24.760
<v Speaker 2>it was mad Abrially. I appeared, which label he was

1:55:24.760 --> 1:55:28.680
<v Speaker 2>at at the time, had an act from Massachusetts called

1:55:28.680 --> 1:55:36.040
<v Speaker 2>The Fix or No the Figs, and they were very punky,

1:55:36.240 --> 1:55:39.360
<v Speaker 2>and so I thought, well, you know, it's good, the

1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:41.840
<v Speaker 2>good songs, and everybody was very excited about them. And

1:55:42.720 --> 1:55:45.960
<v Speaker 2>at the same time, Tim Summer, who was working at

1:55:45.960 --> 1:55:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Atlantic at ann Or at the time, came to me

1:55:48.920 --> 1:55:51.920
<v Speaker 2>with some demos that hood he had done. Actually it

1:55:51.960 --> 1:55:56.120
<v Speaker 2>was a cassette that they were distributing on the road,

1:55:55.440 --> 1:55:59.840
<v Speaker 2>and I heard it. I thought, Yo, this is good,

1:55:59.880 --> 1:56:02.440
<v Speaker 2>but it's kind of like what I've been doing, you know,

1:56:02.560 --> 1:56:04.720
<v Speaker 2>it's not I'm not sure if this is where we're

1:56:04.760 --> 1:56:07.600
<v Speaker 2>going or not. I was kind of okay, I'll do it.

1:56:08.080 --> 1:56:12.760
<v Speaker 2>I can't afford to say no to anything, really, but

1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:15.800
<v Speaker 2>I want to do this other thing first. So I

1:56:15.840 --> 1:56:21.000
<v Speaker 2>met with the band and Lovely People and we said

1:56:21.080 --> 1:56:24.160
<v Speaker 2>just let's do it. And I made the record with

1:56:24.200 --> 1:56:27.920
<v Speaker 2>the other band, which was my focus at the time,

1:56:28.800 --> 1:56:33.040
<v Speaker 2>that sold like two thousand copies, and then went into

1:56:33.080 --> 1:56:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the studio with Hoodie and it was a little discouraging.

1:56:36.520 --> 1:56:39.920
<v Speaker 2>The label gave me fifty thousand dollars to make the

1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:45.520
<v Speaker 2>record and then I think I got twenty. It was

1:56:45.640 --> 1:56:49.600
<v Speaker 2>pretty tight, you know, I budgeted out it was time

1:56:49.680 --> 1:56:53.480
<v Speaker 2>for like maybe eighteen days in the studio, including the mixing,

1:56:54.320 --> 1:56:55.720
<v Speaker 2>so I had ten days to cut the tracks and

1:56:55.800 --> 1:57:00.600
<v Speaker 2>overdub and maybe a week to mix. And so we

1:57:00.640 --> 1:57:06.360
<v Speaker 2>went in and and they were yes on whatever you

1:57:06.360 --> 1:57:09.560
<v Speaker 2>want us to do. You know, we're a little can

1:57:09.600 --> 1:57:12.360
<v Speaker 2>you work something out because the NBA is playing this

1:57:12.440 --> 1:57:15.680
<v Speaker 2>afternoon between two and five, And then we got a

1:57:15.720 --> 1:57:19.400
<v Speaker 2>golf tournament that Darius really wants because you schedule around

1:57:19.400 --> 1:57:22.000
<v Speaker 2>that just a little bit, okay, but if you need us,

1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:24.480
<v Speaker 2>we'll come in, don't worry about. And then Darius would

1:57:24.480 --> 1:57:26.680
<v Speaker 2>be on the golf course at you know, six o'clock

1:57:26.720 --> 1:57:29.640
<v Speaker 2>in the morning and show up at eleven like he

1:57:29.720 --> 1:57:32.520
<v Speaker 2>was supposed to. It was this kind of thing where

1:57:32.840 --> 1:57:36.400
<v Speaker 2>they had other things that were also important in their lives.

1:57:36.480 --> 1:57:39.160
<v Speaker 2>It was like a real view onto somebody that loved

1:57:39.200 --> 1:57:44.200
<v Speaker 2>what they do. We're good at it, but they weren't consumed,

1:57:44.400 --> 1:57:48.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, and that was good for me. And also

1:57:48.320 --> 1:57:51.280
<v Speaker 2>they just let me do whatever I wanted. They listened

1:57:51.280 --> 1:57:54.320
<v Speaker 2>to everything I would. They would do a take, I'd say, no,

1:57:54.640 --> 1:57:56.280
<v Speaker 2>that would that was my thing at the time. I

1:57:56.320 --> 1:57:59.880
<v Speaker 2>pushed the talk back. No, that meant do it again.

1:58:00.880 --> 1:58:07.080
<v Speaker 2>And Darius was just becoming the singer that we all

1:58:07.120 --> 1:58:10.360
<v Speaker 2>hear today, which is phenomenal. Is such he's got such

1:58:10.360 --> 1:58:14.120
<v Speaker 2>a rich voice, and he still hadn't quite zoned in

1:58:14.160 --> 1:58:16.960
<v Speaker 2>on where his pitch was and timing, but he was

1:58:17.360 --> 1:58:23.640
<v Speaker 2>a quick learn and yeah, we did very fast. It

1:58:23.720 --> 1:58:26.360
<v Speaker 2>was floated that wow, it wouldn't it be nice we

1:58:26.440 --> 1:58:28.560
<v Speaker 2>get David Crosby to come and sing on the record.

1:58:29.080 --> 1:58:31.920
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know who called him. It was one

1:58:31.960 --> 1:58:34.920
<v Speaker 2>of the dreams of but I didn't even have to

1:58:34.960 --> 1:58:36.920
<v Speaker 2>do it. It was so somebody from Atlantic called him

1:58:36.960 --> 1:58:39.600
<v Speaker 2>up and Don Gamon's doing a record with a band.

1:58:39.640 --> 1:58:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Would you come in and sing for Don Gamon? I'll

1:58:42.000 --> 1:58:45.000
<v Speaker 2>do anything. And he came in, spent you know, three hours,

1:58:45.040 --> 1:58:48.240
<v Speaker 2>told the band's stories and and gave him a bunch

1:58:48.240 --> 1:58:52.000
<v Speaker 2>of advice, and sang on their first single you know,

1:58:52.080 --> 1:58:54.280
<v Speaker 2>and you can hear Amy's right in there. It would

1:58:54.320 --> 1:58:57.879
<v Speaker 2>not be the same without Uh. Yeah. It was a blast.

1:58:58.160 --> 1:59:01.800
<v Speaker 2>And then of course the whole thing, like I mentioned earlier,

1:59:02.600 --> 1:59:06.240
<v Speaker 2>with we handed the record in and I wasn't sure

1:59:06.240 --> 1:59:10.560
<v Speaker 2>about it. It was like such a such a departure

1:59:10.600 --> 1:59:12.800
<v Speaker 2>from what I thought a cool thing would be for

1:59:12.840 --> 1:59:15.840
<v Speaker 2>this moment in time, and I didn't have a lot

1:59:15.840 --> 1:59:18.760
<v Speaker 2>of faith in it until I finished it, mastered it,

1:59:20.080 --> 1:59:22.520
<v Speaker 2>took it home and I was doing a project with

1:59:22.560 --> 1:59:25.560
<v Speaker 2>my wife. She's a interior designer, and she was having

1:59:25.600 --> 1:59:28.680
<v Speaker 2>me build a model of a house. And I'm good

1:59:28.680 --> 1:59:30.800
<v Speaker 2>at that kind of stuff. So I'm building a model

1:59:30.800 --> 1:59:34.840
<v Speaker 2>and playing the reference acitate on the thing, and she said, well,

1:59:34.840 --> 1:59:37.280
<v Speaker 2>this is pretty good, and I said, I'm surprised at

1:59:38.360 --> 1:59:41.040
<v Speaker 2>That was the first moment that I realized that the

1:59:41.080 --> 1:59:45.080
<v Speaker 2>record had legs. And then we handed it in and

1:59:45.120 --> 1:59:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm starting to hear these horror stories about how because

1:59:47.960 --> 1:59:51.560
<v Speaker 2>the politics, well, in all record labels, but Atlantic, you

1:59:51.640 --> 1:59:55.520
<v Speaker 2>have these little you know, on clubs and this guy's

1:59:55.720 --> 1:59:58.280
<v Speaker 2>got four heavy metal records, and this one's got this

1:59:58.560 --> 2:00:01.160
<v Speaker 2>and this R and B section, Andrea is the only

2:00:01.200 --> 2:00:04.200
<v Speaker 2>one that says which ones get through? And and it

2:00:04.320 --> 2:00:06.520
<v Speaker 2>was like, are we going to get through? And Danny

2:00:06.520 --> 2:00:08.919
<v Speaker 2>Goldberg was the president at the time, and it wasn't

2:00:09.400 --> 2:00:17.480
<v Speaker 2>for his wife. It was Mary Carrol, thank you, who said,

2:00:17.960 --> 2:00:21.120
<v Speaker 2>you've got to take care of my buddy, Timothy. This

2:00:21.160 --> 2:00:24.200
<v Speaker 2>is his band. Don't let it, don't let it slip

2:00:24.200 --> 2:00:27.320
<v Speaker 2>through the cracks. And then Doug Mars picked it up.

2:00:28.440 --> 2:00:33.920
<v Speaker 1>So, yeah, okay, you have this gigantic success. What's it

2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:35.360
<v Speaker 1>like trying to follow that up?

2:00:37.240 --> 2:00:42.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh it's horrible. Yeah, I mean then we're you know,

2:00:42.360 --> 2:00:46.360
<v Speaker 2>because this went on for at least two years. Of

2:00:46.440 --> 2:00:50.400
<v Speaker 2>the process of selling the first ten million units and

2:00:50.720 --> 2:00:55.520
<v Speaker 2>four singles, it was at least two years. And the

2:00:55.560 --> 2:00:58.520
<v Speaker 2>band was ragged, you know this it was this was sad,

2:00:58.600 --> 2:01:00.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, they were they were not what they were

2:01:00.200 --> 2:01:02.800
<v Speaker 2>at the place that happens to everybody where you have

2:01:02.880 --> 2:01:07.760
<v Speaker 2>to you know, seven o'clock radio performances every city, and

2:01:07.800 --> 2:01:13.600
<v Speaker 2>then you know, just worn out. And then okay, we

2:01:13.680 --> 2:01:15.600
<v Speaker 2>got to go back in the studio and make another record.

2:01:15.720 --> 2:01:19.880
<v Speaker 2>And what made the first record was probably five years

2:01:19.920 --> 2:01:23.520
<v Speaker 2>of the band touring the mid Atlantic States, doing bars

2:01:23.920 --> 2:01:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and writing songs together in a band. And then they

2:01:29.960 --> 2:01:34.240
<v Speaker 2>wrote nothing for two years, and so we wound up

2:01:34.240 --> 2:01:42.280
<v Speaker 2>with a bunch of songs that didn't mean much. You know,

2:01:42.400 --> 2:01:47.360
<v Speaker 2>they were and you know, and everybody was mad at

2:01:47.360 --> 2:01:52.320
<v Speaker 2>each other, tired of each other. Darius was starting to

2:01:52.360 --> 2:01:55.080
<v Speaker 2>feel I think, I don't know, I shouldn't speak for him,

2:01:55.360 --> 2:01:57.880
<v Speaker 2>but I know that it was difficult for him as

2:01:57.960 --> 2:02:05.920
<v Speaker 2>a black man, you know, with three white guys that

2:02:06.040 --> 2:02:08.600
<v Speaker 2>it had it. He had his issues with that that

2:02:08.680 --> 2:02:11.600
<v Speaker 2>he was working through. And so making the second record,

2:02:11.920 --> 2:02:15.360
<v Speaker 2>we made a great SOUNDI record, but the only song

2:02:15.440 --> 2:02:19.400
<v Speaker 2>that that sounded strong was something that had been written

2:02:19.440 --> 2:02:23.600
<v Speaker 2>for the first record. And and then then the question was, well,

2:02:23.880 --> 2:02:27.040
<v Speaker 2>do we put a record out now and keep on

2:02:27.160 --> 2:02:29.400
<v Speaker 2>with the momentum or is this where you give it

2:02:29.480 --> 2:02:35.480
<v Speaker 2>a rest? And yeah, I don't I don't know that.

2:02:35.880 --> 2:02:38.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what happened. Happened? Do you know this

2:02:38.160 --> 2:02:41.200
<v Speaker 2>old three million units? It's like still did you know? Well?

2:02:41.600 --> 2:02:45.720
<v Speaker 2>But it's I don't know that we ever attained that

2:02:46.040 --> 2:02:49.040
<v Speaker 2>same kind of thing that and I don't know the

2:02:49.040 --> 2:02:51.240
<v Speaker 2>way I ever would have because what was wrong was

2:02:51.280 --> 2:02:55.880
<v Speaker 2>this writing thing, you know, where the four guys they

2:02:55.880 --> 2:02:59.360
<v Speaker 2>needed a year off from each other going out this summer,

2:02:59.640 --> 2:02:59.840
<v Speaker 2>you know.

2:03:00.800 --> 2:03:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you make a deal to make a record,

2:03:04.600 --> 2:03:08.400
<v Speaker 1>let's say, with Tracy Chapman or Bruce Hornsbers, and they

2:03:08.440 --> 2:03:12.120
<v Speaker 1>want to be co producer. How do you split up

2:03:12.120 --> 2:03:12.680
<v Speaker 1>the points?

2:03:15.960 --> 2:03:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's Sandy's job, you know.

2:03:20.840 --> 2:03:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me ask it differently. Does the act want

2:03:24.560 --> 2:03:27.760
<v Speaker 1>its name as co producer for vanity or for the money?

2:03:29.720 --> 2:03:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh vanity? You know, I think that you know this.

2:03:39.040 --> 2:03:40.960
<v Speaker 2>It's a touchy subject for me. You know, I'm a

2:03:41.000 --> 2:03:44.640
<v Speaker 2>record producer by trade. I'm not a songwriter. I'm not

2:03:44.760 --> 2:03:46.720
<v Speaker 2>asking for a piece of the song, even though I

2:03:46.800 --> 2:03:48.880
<v Speaker 2>was there and maybe suggested that the melody of the

2:03:48.880 --> 2:03:51.120
<v Speaker 2>bridge could have been different. You know. I see in

2:03:51.200 --> 2:03:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Nashville people get songwriting credits for ridiculously little contribution the

2:04:00.080 --> 2:04:01.520
<v Speaker 2>But I never felt that way. I felt like, I'm

2:04:01.520 --> 2:04:04.760
<v Speaker 2>a record producer. It's a tough job. I'm holding down

2:04:04.800 --> 2:04:08.680
<v Speaker 2>the fort and we finish our work. Why do you

2:04:08.720 --> 2:04:10.920
<v Speaker 2>have to have a credit? Which part of this? Okay,

2:04:10.960 --> 2:04:12.760
<v Speaker 2>so you're a big name, you've already had a hit.

2:04:12.800 --> 2:04:15.680
<v Speaker 2>You think I'm writing on your coattails? All right? So

2:04:16.040 --> 2:04:21.240
<v Speaker 2>whose name's first mine? I'll give you a point, you know,

2:04:21.920 --> 2:04:24.040
<v Speaker 2>but maybe it's a five point deal. I don't know,

2:04:24.120 --> 2:04:26.560
<v Speaker 2>you know it's and where are we at now? I

2:04:26.560 --> 2:04:28.520
<v Speaker 2>don't even know what this today? This is like a

2:04:29.000 --> 2:04:31.920
<v Speaker 2>what is this conversation? It's like a it doesn't mean

2:04:31.960 --> 2:04:34.840
<v Speaker 2>anything anymore. I don't know how you divvy up what

2:04:34.960 --> 2:04:40.320
<v Speaker 2>is there today? But you know, generally, I had gotten

2:04:40.360 --> 2:04:43.920
<v Speaker 2>to a point after Mellencamp where those were all co

2:04:44.000 --> 2:04:50.320
<v Speaker 2>productions and they were split or less. And that was

2:04:50.560 --> 2:04:53.480
<v Speaker 2>just because that's where he was at. It's like, you

2:04:53.480 --> 2:04:54.880
<v Speaker 2>want to work with me, this is what you get.

2:04:55.160 --> 2:04:59.400
<v Speaker 2>There was no negotiating. Later on, as I had more

2:04:59.400 --> 2:05:02.520
<v Speaker 2>success on on my own, I would get, you know,

2:05:03.080 --> 2:05:06.400
<v Speaker 2>normal three point deals that might accelerate at a certain point,

2:05:06.520 --> 2:05:11.520
<v Speaker 2>or that kind of thing. And I got to say

2:05:11.520 --> 2:05:14.880
<v Speaker 2>that most people, when when faced with this whole thing.

2:05:15.000 --> 2:05:18.520
<v Speaker 2>They understand. Maybe they want their name underneath. They're happy

2:05:18.520 --> 2:05:23.240
<v Speaker 2>with their name underneath, but it's not about them taking money.

2:05:23.920 --> 2:05:27.680
<v Speaker 2>It's I don't know.

2:05:28.760 --> 2:05:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to Mellencamp for a second. What kind

2:05:30.880 --> 2:05:36.600
<v Speaker 1>of relationship do you have with Mellencamp today? If any, none,

2:05:37.760 --> 2:05:38.360
<v Speaker 1>don't have any.

2:05:40.440 --> 2:05:45.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm sad about that. You know, we we found our

2:05:45.560 --> 2:05:50.280
<v Speaker 2>ups and downs. Certainly grateful for you know, all that

2:05:50.360 --> 2:05:52.600
<v Speaker 2>he's done for my career, and I'm sure he's grateful.

2:05:52.960 --> 2:05:55.120
<v Speaker 2>I do believe he's grateful for all that I've added

2:05:55.120 --> 2:05:58.000
<v Speaker 2>to his. So I don't feel like there's any any

2:05:58.200 --> 2:06:02.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, anger between. We've had moments that there was,

2:06:02.760 --> 2:06:08.280
<v Speaker 2>and we've resolved them. And I mixed a record for

2:06:08.400 --> 2:06:15.240
<v Speaker 2>him in nineteen ninety well, boy, I don't remember. That

2:06:15.320 --> 2:06:18.840
<v Speaker 2>was two thousand and one, and we had a good

2:06:18.840 --> 2:06:26.400
<v Speaker 2>time together. My wife has decorated homes for him. We

2:06:26.760 --> 2:06:33.160
<v Speaker 2>were friends with his with all of his wives, So yeah,

2:06:33.400 --> 2:06:37.280
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of closeness. But over the last jeez,

2:06:37.320 --> 2:06:40.120
<v Speaker 2>probably twenty years now, we haven't been in contact.

2:06:41.640 --> 2:06:46.200
<v Speaker 1>Do you still own your royalties? Yeah? Would you ever

2:06:46.280 --> 2:06:49.720
<v Speaker 1>sell them? No, because.

2:06:50.960 --> 2:06:54.720
<v Speaker 2>It's well, I just don't think it's a good business decision.

2:06:56.960 --> 2:07:01.720
<v Speaker 2>I have children, not that you know, they have to

2:07:01.720 --> 2:07:09.120
<v Speaker 2>have money, but you know, I'm just so blessed over

2:07:09.160 --> 2:07:13.560
<v Speaker 2>the years I've I've managed to between you know, Hoody

2:07:13.640 --> 2:07:18.720
<v Speaker 2>and Tracy and Mellencamp and Ram all the they're all

2:07:19.720 --> 2:07:24.640
<v Speaker 2>they're all acts that have fan bases today. They're they're

2:07:24.680 --> 2:07:29.000
<v Speaker 2>all acts that that if they play locally again, people

2:07:29.000 --> 2:07:32.640
<v Speaker 2>will come see them. They're on people's playlists. They play

2:07:32.680 --> 2:07:35.640
<v Speaker 2>those songs every day, and I make money off of

2:07:35.680 --> 2:07:40.520
<v Speaker 2>it every three months, and it's it's amazing, you know.

2:07:41.080 --> 2:07:43.720
<v Speaker 2>But I looked at it and I hear how people

2:07:43.720 --> 2:07:46.280
<v Speaker 2>are so upset with the Spotify and how tiny the

2:07:46.360 --> 2:07:50.160
<v Speaker 2>royalties are. But nobody thinks about the fact that building

2:07:50.160 --> 2:07:52.840
<v Speaker 2>a fan base of people that are on a playlist

2:07:53.160 --> 2:07:56.440
<v Speaker 2>takes a long long time. It's twenty thirty forty years

2:07:56.720 --> 2:08:01.240
<v Speaker 2>of accumulated work and people that are bands that are

2:08:01.280 --> 2:08:08.240
<v Speaker 2>alive still doing it. And so we get a good

2:08:08.320 --> 2:08:15.720
<v Speaker 2>check that is something that's worth something to uh a

2:08:16.160 --> 2:08:20.360
<v Speaker 2>uh you know investment people. You know, obviously they would

2:08:20.400 --> 2:08:24.200
<v Speaker 2>give me whatever they're multiple is for it, but but

2:08:24.440 --> 2:08:26.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, look at paying taxes on it and then

2:08:26.560 --> 2:08:30.320
<v Speaker 2>getting on lump, and and then me having to manage

2:08:30.320 --> 2:08:32.400
<v Speaker 2>that money to try and get something equal to what

2:08:32.440 --> 2:08:37.360
<v Speaker 2>I None of this makes any sense whereas this will

2:08:37.360 --> 2:08:40.640
<v Speaker 2>go on forever. It's it's you know, as long as

2:08:40.680 --> 2:08:42.720
<v Speaker 2>as that fan base of people that are playing it.

2:08:42.760 --> 2:08:45.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe until those maybe when my generation or

2:08:45.960 --> 2:08:48.560
<v Speaker 2>the previous generation dies, maybe it'll go down. But I

2:08:48.600 --> 2:08:54.480
<v Speaker 2>think until the twenty years probably still. You know, no, no,

2:08:55.480 --> 2:08:58.080
<v Speaker 2>And I understand completely why why some people do it.

2:08:58.120 --> 2:09:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Maybe some people need a chunk of good for them.

2:09:02.920 --> 2:09:05.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe in it either, But one more step.

2:09:05.920 --> 2:09:09.160
<v Speaker 1>You know, record companies don't overpay. How hard is it

2:09:09.200 --> 2:09:12.680
<v Speaker 1>collecting this money?

2:09:14.840 --> 2:09:18.200
<v Speaker 2>You know you worry me because I mean, we get

2:09:18.280 --> 2:09:23.000
<v Speaker 2>checks every three months. I don't. I Well, my wife

2:09:23.040 --> 2:09:25.720
<v Speaker 2>keeps on saying, we need to audit these guys. That's

2:09:25.720 --> 2:09:28.280
<v Speaker 2>what she keeps on saying. You know, you know, we

2:09:28.320 --> 2:09:30.840
<v Speaker 2>need to go hire somebody and have them dig around

2:09:30.880 --> 2:09:35.400
<v Speaker 2>a little bit. It's probably right. I'm you know, I'm

2:09:35.400 --> 2:09:38.560
<v Speaker 2>just happy. I see them come in and it's like, wow, Okay,

2:09:39.720 --> 2:09:40.800
<v Speaker 2>we've got to dinner tonight.

2:09:42.760 --> 2:09:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Don I want to thank you for sharing your

2:09:46.040 --> 2:09:48.760
<v Speaker 1>career and your stories with my audience. Obviously there's a

2:09:48.760 --> 2:09:51.240
<v Speaker 1>lot we couldn't touch in this time deeper, certainly with

2:09:51.320 --> 2:09:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Meloncamp and other records, but thanks for being so open

2:09:55.000 --> 2:09:55.520
<v Speaker 1>and honest.

2:09:57.200 --> 2:09:59.560
<v Speaker 2>The pleasure Bob up to see you again.

2:09:59.640 --> 2:10:03.360
<v Speaker 1>So until next time, this is Bob Left sets

2:10:25.000 --> 2:10:25.120
<v Speaker 2>Sh