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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Stetts Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is producer engineer extraordinary Don Gamon. Don,

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Speaker 1: how do you produce a record?

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Speaker 2: Bob, keep your mouth shut? That would be my first thought.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting thing because you came up as

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Speaker 1: an engineer. My observation in the studio is the engineer

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Speaker 1: has to be quiet and be more of a yes man.

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Speaker 1: And you became a producer. Well, switching gears to a

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Speaker 1: smaller question. My original question, how hard was that transition

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Speaker 1: going from being an engineer to producer?

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Speaker 2: It was difficult, it was Hm. Well, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a long story, but the tell the story. That's why

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Speaker 2: we're here, all right. You know. I was fortunate coming

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Speaker 2: from Live Sound, which is really where my beginning is

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Speaker 2: as an engineer, that one of my clients on the

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Speaker 2: road was Stephen Stills, and he took a liking to

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Speaker 2: me and took me to Caribou, which was a ranch

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Speaker 2: up in the Rocky Mountains, and I spent a month

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Speaker 2: with him finishing a record that he had started, and

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Speaker 2: at the end of it he gave me a production credit.

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Speaker 2: So right out of the gate I was given not

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Speaker 2: only engineering, but production credit. And then he turned around

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Speaker 2: and got me a position at the Record Plant in

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles and Criteria Recording in Miami and said, this

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Speaker 2: is your next step. So I quit my day job,

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Speaker 2: which was live or Live sound, and moved to Miami,

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Speaker 2: where I promptly stopped producing and just started engineering. And

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Speaker 2: really realized at that point how much I did not

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Speaker 2: know about making records. Stephen was a great teacher, but

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Speaker 2: I had so much to learn about recording techniques, operating

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Speaker 2: tape machines, editing. There was just a myriad of things

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Speaker 2: that I knew nothing about. Even though I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I know everything about the equipment that I'm using, it

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Speaker 2: was not even close. So that process took almost ten

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Speaker 2: years before I got my next full on recording producing credit,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Why did Stills take such a liking to you

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Speaker 1: that he would bring you from the road to the

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Speaker 1: studio and then give you a production credit.

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Speaker 2: I think probably what he saw in me the situation

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Speaker 2: I was on the road with Manassas, which was one

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Speaker 2: of Stevens' many bands after I guess that would have

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Speaker 2: been after his solo career and my job was I

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Speaker 2: was hired as a monitor system for the stage. This

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Speaker 2: would have been nineteen maybe seventy two, and I had

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Speaker 2: already been on the road since about nineteen seventy. I

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Speaker 2: started in sixty five, and we were brought in at

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Speaker 2: that time because we were the only people that actually

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Speaker 2: had a stage monitoring system which split out the microphones

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Speaker 2: on stage and that put the console on the side

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Speaker 2: of the stage, and that had monitors on the sides,

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Speaker 2: and it slants in the front and different mixes for

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Speaker 2: differ locations. All of that kind of thing was very,

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Speaker 2: very new, and I think it was what's the San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: He had hired another production company to do the main

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Speaker 2: sound and lights, et cetera. So I was just kind

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Speaker 2: of in a dndum and so I was separate. I

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Speaker 2: was more noticeable because I was hired as an extra

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Speaker 2: and my job was to sit side of the stage

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Speaker 2: and take all the heat as things get that back

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Speaker 2: and they couldn't hear themselves, and it was a very tense,

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Speaker 2: you know, a couple hours while you're trying to make

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Speaker 2: it through the show without glares coming from Stephen. And

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Speaker 2: I think I withstood the heat really well, is what

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Speaker 2: it was. And there was a day, especially bad day,

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Speaker 2: that I was really having trouble with some whistling and

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Speaker 2: the monitor. Steven kept on looking over at me during

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Speaker 2: the set, you know, like get it louder, I can't

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Speaker 2: hear myself, And finally, in a rage, he just turns

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Speaker 2: and throws a drumstick at me from you know, mid

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Speaker 2: mid stage to the side, and I caught it and

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Speaker 2: threw it back at him. And I think that was

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Speaker 2: kind of the beginning of our relationship, was this you know,

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Speaker 2: willingness to be straight up and he appreciated that. And

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Speaker 2: shortly after that time we did Michael John Bowen, who

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Speaker 2: was his manager at the time ex Marine wonderful man

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Speaker 2: who's since deceased, put together a tour that he thought

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Speaker 2: we could be much more efficient touring if we did

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Speaker 2: it from central locations, and he wanted to do it

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Speaker 2: from Boulder, where Steven had a house up in Golden

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Speaker 2: and do shows that were you know, three five hundred

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Speaker 2: mile drives from that location. And so he wanted to

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Speaker 2: build a semi that had two levels in it where

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Speaker 2: we could put a lighting trust on the first floor

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Speaker 2: and then all of the band's equipment and sound equipment

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Speaker 2: on the second and I was the driver, and so

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Speaker 2: I took on a role as a stage manager, truck driver,

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Speaker 2: mixing engineer for about a year before this all happened

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Speaker 2: with the studio stuff. So that's just one little piece

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Speaker 2: of my that's actually the end of my recording.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, I got a lot of questions. Don't you

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Speaker 1: need a license to drive a truck?

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Speaker 2: Yeah you do, But you know, I wasn't driving for money,

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Speaker 2: and so there's this exception with Class C licenses, I

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Speaker 2: think is what they're called, or at least maybe that's

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Speaker 2: what was called in Pennsylvania, which is where I was from. Anyhow,

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Speaker 2: I had fortunately a West Coast driver who was our

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Speaker 2: driver on the Manassas Tour, a lovely guy, you know,

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Speaker 2: career semi driver who I rode with for probably a

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Speaker 2: year before I did it myself, and he taught me

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Speaker 2: all the ins and outs of proper breaking technique, coming

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Speaker 2: down the grapevine and losing your brakes, you know, all

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Speaker 2: of that kind of stuff. That was so, you know,

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Speaker 2: of course important.

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Speaker 1: Well, how hard is it to drive a semi?

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Speaker 2: It's not it's hard. There's a lot of technique, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of keeping it in a very narrow rpm

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Speaker 2: range regardless of your speed. The diesel engine doesn't like

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Speaker 2: revving up and revving down. It was just sit right

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Speaker 2: in a little three hundred rpm window. The transmissions are

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Speaker 2: usually thirteen speed, and you learn to shift them without

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Speaker 2: using the clutch. You do it all with. There's a

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Speaker 2: number like twenty one hundred RPMs where it will slide

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Speaker 2: from one gear to the next, and it's very fluid.

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Speaker 2: It almost feels like an automatic transmission when it's done properly,

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Speaker 2: and you can go up and down the gear ranges

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Speaker 2: like that. Backing up is a whole another thing that

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Speaker 2: backing up is like, and especially at the kind of

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Speaker 2: venues we were playing, and we had built a trailer

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Speaker 2: that was eleven foot high instead of the normal like

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Speaker 2: I think thirteen maybe or so that we could get

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Speaker 2: in these venues and get in closer. We didn't want

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Speaker 2: to have to roll stuff, you know, blocks away, so

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Speaker 2: backing in curved backing. I still look back at and think,

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Speaker 2: how in the world did I do that and get

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Speaker 2: away with it?

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Speaker 1: Okay? There were two Minassas albums. It was the double

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Speaker 1: album in seventy two was subsequent single album the double

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Speaker 1: album was one of the great products of all time.

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Speaker 1: You've seen a million bands. How hot was Manassas live?

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Speaker 2: They had great nights? Uh yeah. A lot of it

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Speaker 2: dependent on how on Stephen was, you know, and it

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Speaker 2: was material sometimes it was, but you know, the arrangements

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Speaker 2: were amazing. Stephen is to this day. I just amazed

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Speaker 2: at his ability as as a writer, a producer and arranger.

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Speaker 2: You know, those songs were just so well put together.

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Speaker 2: And what we carried on the road was everything that

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Speaker 2: was on the record. It was the same band, and

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Speaker 2: so yeah, it could sound amazing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know he's a public figure. Didn't you work

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Speaker 1: with him for so long? What does the average person

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Speaker 1: not know about? Stephen still's.

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Speaker 2: Shy you know about I don't know that I can

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Speaker 2: speak to it that well. I saw him about a

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Speaker 2: month ago. I hadn't seen him for probably twenty five years.

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Speaker 2: I did see him. No, No, that's wrong. I saw him

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Speaker 2: at the Buffalo Springfield concert here in town. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Andy Summers took me and I'm going to say it

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Speaker 2: was probably four years ago, but I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: The Buffalo Springfield I think was twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: No, it wasn't that long ago. They've played at the

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Speaker 2: Wiltern or.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you saw not important. You saw him at the

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Speaker 1: Buffalo Springfield Show, and you know, I said hello, but

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Speaker 1: we haven't spent any time where we've sat down and talked.

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Speaker 2: I did see him at the bookstore in Studio City

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Speaker 2: just a month ago and walked up to him and

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Speaker 2: kind of surprised him. You know, hello, it's Don Gamon.

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Speaker 2: He took one look at me and said, wow, we've

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Speaker 2: gotten old. And then we talked, and you know, he

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Speaker 2: talked about how happy he was and how different life

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Speaker 2: was for him right now compared to you know, the

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Speaker 2: last twenty five years, and that, yeah, he seemed like

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Speaker 2: he was in a really good place. And we exchanged

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Speaker 2: numbers again and said that we're going to get together.

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Speaker 2: You know, before that, when I was working at Criteria,

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Speaker 2: I would probably there was a record that I did

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Speaker 2: in like seventy five was Neil and Steven together, And

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Speaker 2: it's probably the last time I spent significant time with him.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a legendary record. Long may you run? Because

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Speaker 1: I believe the first dates were in Florida. Stills flew

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Speaker 1: down and then Neil Young sent a telegram saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: essentially I'm out.

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Speaker 2: Well that's kind of the story. I can give you

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Speaker 2: the actual, the more complete story. Actually. The thing that's

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Speaker 2: remarkable about this, it says so much about both of them,

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Speaker 2: is that they put together. We're going to make a

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Speaker 2: record together, just Steven and I and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: come in a couple of weeks before we're going to start,

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Speaker 2: and I just want to get acclimated. So Neil comes

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Speaker 2: in town and promptly buys like a fifty foot old

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Speaker 2: junker wooden boat, as Neil would, and parks it in

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Speaker 2: Coconut Grove in the Marina and starts to write the

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Speaker 2: songs for the album. And so his pre production was

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Speaker 2: I'm coming to town to get the flavor and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to write the album here right now, which he did.

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Speaker 2: And then Steven shows up probably a day before we're

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Speaker 2: going to start, and he checks in the best hotel

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Speaker 2: in town, and and then we go in the studio

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Speaker 2: and Steven's got a couple of songs I've been sitting

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Speaker 2: around for a while, and then he's got a few

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Speaker 2: more that he's not finished, and Neil's all ready to go,

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Speaker 2: and so we record the record, and it's going really well,

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Speaker 2: and it's a it's a good band, mostly Stevens players

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Speaker 2: from Midasses, and uh, all of a sudden, David and

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Speaker 2: Graham show up. And there hadn't been a lot of

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Speaker 2: the four of them together, Uh, you know, probably for

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know that it was a while.

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Speaker 2: And they show up and everybody's getting along really great,

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Speaker 2: having a wonderful time. And I'm not sure who invited,

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Speaker 2: but somebody said, why don't you sing on this song?

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Speaker 2: And so the David and Graham go out and sing

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Speaker 2: background so on one of the songs, and then it

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Speaker 2: turned into three songs, and then five songs, and then

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Speaker 2: now there's talk of why don't we record one of

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Speaker 2: David's songs in one of Graham's songs, and oh, now

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Speaker 2: we're making a CSNY record, and the the vibe all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden. I don't think I even realized it

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Speaker 2: until it was habitual that every morning at nine o'clock,

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Speaker 2: Neil would call me at home and say, this is

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Speaker 2: what I'd like to do today. Can you get this

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Speaker 2: stuff up? We'll do this overdub, we'll look at this.

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Speaker 2: And he called me at nine o'clock this morning, and

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Speaker 2: he said, Hey, I'm in Zuma and I go Zuma.

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Speaker 2: He says, yeah, I'm here in Zuma. I flew out

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Speaker 2: last night. And isn't Zuma on the West coast and

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Speaker 2: he says yes, yeah. He says, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: really happy with the way things have been going. It's

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Speaker 2: not what you know, Steve and I said we were

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Speaker 2: going to do. So, you know, would you just kind

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Speaker 2: of go in there and, you know, clean up the tracks,

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Speaker 2: put things back the way it was before, David and Graham,

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Speaker 2: you know, put their vocals on it. And then when

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Speaker 2: you get all that done, give me a call. I'll

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Speaker 2: come back and we'll finish the record.

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Speaker 1: And then what happened.

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Speaker 2: That's what we did. I cleaned it up.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did you put all that stuff in there? What

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Speaker 1: did Stephen, Graham and David say about what Neil said?

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't remember there was any discussion. It

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Speaker 2: was just you know, or maybe I was withheld from

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Speaker 2: what that might have been. But all I knew was

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Speaker 2: that the next time we were back in the studio

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Speaker 2: it was just Steven and Neil again.

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Speaker 1: But going to the next step a tour was guard

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Speaker 1: did or booked, excuse me, and Neil was booked and

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Speaker 1: ultimately he did not go out. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: anything about that?

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Speaker 2: No, Honestly, I don't even recall that, but I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you're right. That's something you'll have to kind of bear

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Speaker 2: with me, Bob. There's there are giant holes that. Honestly,

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Speaker 2: I look to other people that it might have been

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Speaker 2: there for their recollection, you know. I know that shortly

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Speaker 2: after that, all four of them did get together, and

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Speaker 2: then I went out on the road. I recalled doing

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Speaker 2: shows in like Wimbley Stadium. I took my leave from

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Speaker 2: Criteria to go Douche and I only think it was

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Speaker 2: one show, but there might have been more that the

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Speaker 2: four of them did together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You're from where.

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Speaker 2: Lancaster, Pennsylvania, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Home of the Pennsylvania Dutch. When you are in Lancaster, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: because now Lydditz, which is right in that area, is

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Speaker 1: the epicenter of live music, staging audio. Was there anything

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Speaker 1: like that there when you were growing up? No?

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Speaker 2: Well, then the Claire brothers, the two brothers lived in Lettitts.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're growing up is there music in the house.

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Speaker 1: How do you become infected with music?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess my story is that, you know, probably

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Speaker 2: in third grade I was I wanted to join the orchestra,

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Speaker 2: and the orchestra director said to me, I need a violist.

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Speaker 2: You're going to play viola very typical way that things

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Speaker 2: people learn instruments. So I start practicing in viola, taking lessons.

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Speaker 2: I do that for many years, eventually become like first

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Speaker 2: chair in the district of Blancaster County Orchestra. So I

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Speaker 2: was a decent violist. But right around nineteen sixty four

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Speaker 2: sixty three, the Beatles came along and I started letting

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Speaker 2: my hair grow a little longer. And in those days,

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Speaker 2: because I was on the swimming team, you had to

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Speaker 2: have it above your ears and above your forehead and

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Speaker 2: all these kind of hair rules. And my father, who

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Speaker 2: was recovering Mennonite, did not like me letting my hair

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Speaker 2: grow either, And basically I got thrown out an orchestra,

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Speaker 2: even though I was a decent player, because the orchestra

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Speaker 2: conductor did not like the fact that I was getting

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Speaker 2: interested in rock music. And what happened was I got

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Speaker 2: together with a trombone player and we formed a rock band.

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Speaker 2: The rock band needed equipment, especially vocal equipment.

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Speaker 1: Let's stop late, wait, let's stop, let's stop right. Your

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Speaker 1: father was a recovering Mennonite. Tell me a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about that.

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Speaker 2: You know, the my father was raised as a Mennonite,

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Speaker 2: and which is kind of the origins of the Amish.

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Speaker 2: The Amish kind of breakaway from the Mennonites. And what

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Speaker 2: happened was during World War Two. The Mennonites are conscientious subjectors.

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Speaker 2: They they do not believe in going to war and

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Speaker 2: qualify as I think as four F or whatever the

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Speaker 2: classification is. That's that my father disagreed with the Mennonites.

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Speaker 2: He is a conscientious subjector and reverse and left the religion,

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Speaker 2: joined the Presbyterian Church and joined the army. And so

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Speaker 2: I guess the point of all this I'm making is

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Speaker 2: that I grew up with a very conservative father who

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Speaker 2: church going, very active. That that was something I was

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Speaker 2: around a lot, and moving more into the the rock

295
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Speaker 2: music scene and the whole Beatles thing was I'm sure

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Speaker 2: very you know, just distant from what their experience was.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless, he allowed me to pursue it, and that

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Speaker 2: entailed initially as the rock band. I knew I couldn't

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Speaker 2: afford to buy an AMP, and so I went about trying.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, wait, wait, I don't want to get

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Speaker 1: to I want to stop you once again. Was your

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Speaker 1: mother a Mennonite?

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Speaker 2: No, no she was. I don't even know what church,

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Speaker 2: probably another Presbyterian kind of church, you know, But no

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Speaker 2: she was not.

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Speaker 1: And then since your father left the Men in Knight,

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Speaker 1: didn't he have relatives? Did you have contact with him?

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Speaker 2: Not?

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Speaker 1: Contact with him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but not a lot. I mean I can remember

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Speaker 2: going to family reunions where there'd be there might be

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Speaker 2: some horses and buggies in the front yard, you know,

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Speaker 2: because there was definitely a cross pollination of this stuff.

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Speaker 2: I had many uncles and aunts that were Gamings, but

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Speaker 2: we weren't close with any of them. I had a

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Speaker 2: grandmother who was Mennonite and who was an incredible cook

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Speaker 2: that would see often on Sundays and she'd make these

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Speaker 2: giant meals, and she wore you know what you would

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Speaker 2: think of men andite woman wears very conservative you know,

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Speaker 2: play dress. And same with my grandfather. Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: One of the big things in Lancaster is scrapple. Is

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Speaker 1: that a Mennonite. Is that a Mennonite thing or is

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Speaker 1: that just a regional thing.

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Speaker 2: That's probably mennnight. Yeah, it's one of the many things

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Speaker 2: that all cultures do with leftovers, right, grind things up

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Speaker 2: and mix them with some a grain, smother it with

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Speaker 2: maple syrup. Yeah, I actually missed that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how many kids in the family.

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Speaker 2: Just one sister?

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Speaker 1: And what she would her life turn out to be?

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Speaker 2: She became a second grade teacher and pretty much her

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Speaker 2: whole life.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're leaning towards electronics. So in school, were you

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Speaker 1: good with science?

335
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Speaker 2: Yeah? I was was very good with pretty much. I'm

336
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Speaker 2: a decent school person, especially once I got into junior high.

337
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Speaker 2: I had a closet in the basement. Believe it or not,

338
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Speaker 2: that would be from one hobby to the next, chemistry, photography, biology,

339
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Speaker 2: butterfly net's dissecting stuff, to the point that in like

340
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Speaker 2: seventh grade, I think the science teacher got me a

341
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Speaker 2: college course in invertebrates, and I had a shark and

342
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Speaker 2: a cat and all this stuff that I could dissect

343
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Speaker 2: that was kind of on the side. So at the

344
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Speaker 2: time I was thinking about medicine, I was I might

345
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Speaker 2: want to be a doctor. I liked all this stuff

346
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Speaker 2: and it's probably well suited for it until the rock

347
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Speaker 2: and roll thing came along and that just blew everything up.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you were playing the viola. You talk about organizing

349
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Speaker 1: a band. What I mean, Jerry Goodman played the violin

350
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Speaker 1: in the flock. But what was your instrument in the band?

351
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Speaker 2: Bass?

352
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Speaker 1: And how did you learn how to play the bass?

353
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Speaker 2: Very badly? I was a horrible bass player. I looked

354
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: back at it with total regret. But it wasn't a

355
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: great bass. It was a national bass, short neck, not

356
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: a very great tone. I built my own amp out of.

357
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Speaker 1: Well, well this is where this is. That's where you

358
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: were going. Yeah, you had the bass, and of course

359
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Speaker 1: the bass requires Okay, I'll ask you. You're the big expert.

360
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Speaker 1: Why do you need a specific base amp.

361
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: You needed big speakers, you know, the biggest ones they make,

362
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: so that the base takes more for you know, more power.

363
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: It needs more surface area. I wanted basically a Fender basement,

364
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: you know, it would been what I wanted. The best

365
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 2: bass player in town had a Fender basement, and he

366
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: was with a Fender base and he was great. I

367
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: was not great, But I needed a good base amp.

368
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 2: And at the time I was also very interested in woodworking,

369
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 2: and I had bought my own table salt, which I

370
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 2: set up in the garage, and so I was building

371
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 2: my own speaker cabinets and I copied them like the fenders,

372
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: with vinyl coverings and corners and pretty groklaw looked exactly

373
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Speaker 2: like a Fender basement. Actually, as far as an amp goes,

374
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: it performed well. But that process I'm going through that.

375
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Speaker 1: Wait, okay, it's one thing to build the speaker cabinet.

376
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Speaker 1: I think you had two fifteen's in a Fender basement.

377
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Speaker 1: How the hell did you build the amplifier you did?

378
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: There was these things called Dina kits oh yeah, if

379
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: you recall the oh yeah, and they sold like a

380
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: thirty five watt amp, you know, power amp tubes. And

381
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: then they had a little pre app to had a

382
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: phonograph premp in it that had an ox position on it.

383
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: And so I built those two things, and then I

384
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: modified the inputs that would take a guitar jack and

385
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 2: that was that. I mean, it was basically the same

386
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 2: stuff that's in a Fender basement. I just didn't have

387
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: the overdrive capability, which on a bass, you don't really

388
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: need that much.

389
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Speaker 1: But okay, so you're in the band, you're playing the bass,

390
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: you've built your own imitation bass man. What happens next.

391
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: Well, we needed a vocal system. So the next step

392
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: was to go to the local Lancaster parts store where

393
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: they sell everything that unique speaker parts. And I'm down

394
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: there looking about maybe buying some speakers, and I run

395
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: to this Guy's name is Jean Claire, and he's the

396
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: working in the parts store, and I told him what

397
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: I'm doing, and he says, you know, my brother and

398
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: I we run a little business on the side making

399
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: vocal monitors for churches, and we need somebody that could

400
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 2: maybe crank out these vocal columns. Would you be interested,

401
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: and we'll help you out with the stuff you're looking for,

402
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe you can use that for your band.

403
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 2: And so basically I started as a cabinet maker for

404
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: these two brothers building these church vocal columns, you know,

405
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 2: like a sure vocal column. They are basically copies of

406
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 2: the six eight inch speakers. I think it was in

407
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 2: a stack and any So that was the beginning of

408
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: my relationship with Claire. And at the time they had

409
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 2: a two car garage in Lititz where they built their stuff,

410
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: and then I had my garage in Lancaster and it

411
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: grew very quickly from that to a point where we

412
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: were building stuff to do live shows at Franklin and

413
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: Marshall College for the bands that were coming through, booked

414
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: by the by the people there.

415
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you graduate from high school and you go right

416
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: into making these cabinets or what happened?

417
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: No, no, no, this is all. I was fifteen. This

418
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: is long before graduating. I was fifteen when I was

419
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: The next generation speaker was an A seven, which is

420
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: an altech lancing voice of the theater. It's a monstrous

421
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: box with a horn and a wolfer and a horn.

422
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: Hard to build, by the way, because it's got curved

423
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: wood in it, but we built two of those and

424
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: we're using it at Franklin and Marshall. I think the

425
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: first time we used it was maybe Peter Poul and

426
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 2: Mary came through and we added some stuff for them,

427
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: and then fortuitously the Four Seasons came through town and

428
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: we set that up for them, and they really liked

429
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: roy and decided to hire roy On to go on

430
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 2: the road with them permanently. And then so that I

431
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: think he was a shop teacher at the time and

432
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: he quit his teaching job and this is all well,

433
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: I'm still I mean, I can remember driving to Atlantic

434
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: City to do shows with the Supremes and the Four

435
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: Tops on the boardwalk and driving a cor of Air

436
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: van on a learners permit, and that was kind of

437
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: my beginning with live sound. And the systems were very rudimentary.

438
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: I think we had maybe four microphones and I don't

439
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: even know what we use for power amp, probably something horrible,

440
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: but it was better than what most people were offering.

441
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: It was a real infancy for what sound was. And

442
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: but we grew so fast during that time, moving into

443
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: building our own consoles and then eventually partnering up with

444
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: the newest people that were building transistor power amps, and

445
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 2: then we were off to the races.

446
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: Okay, you're working at Franklin and Marshall, the local college.

447
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: How do you get a gig in Atlantic City?

448
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: Four seasons I think was the ticket that got us out.

449
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: You know, they were seeing us on the road, or

450
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: not me, but Roy with his setup for them, and

451
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: it worked. And so we go through and often it

452
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: would be the promoters like Philadelphia, Larry Maggott and the

453
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: Speedback Brothers. You know, we became close with them, the

454
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: Belkans in Cleveland so quickly. You know, the promoters knew

455
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: that they could get sound equipment that worked for these

456
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: bands that had nothing, because production wasn't something that bands,

457
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: you know, carried at that time. It just came in.

458
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: Ultimately, you know, from an outside viewpoint, there's Clear Brothers

459
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: and Showco. When Clear was starting and starting to gain traction,

460
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: was there any competition or was it just a regional business?

461
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: What was going on?

462
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was Mannis. It was a Boston company that

463
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: was quite large. They were using the eight foot tall

464
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: movie theater straight horn I forget, the model number two

465
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: ten Altech I don't remember, and the multicellular Altech lancing

466
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 2: horns that were monstrous. And then they had semis and

467
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: the dance floor. They are in the front of the

468
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: semi that's up on top of the tree. They had

469
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 2: built racks of Macintosh to power amplifiers and that was

470
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: how they built the first really big systems. And not

471
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 2: many people I don't even know who was using that stuff.

472
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: It was at the big gigs. But we were opportunists,

473
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: right at that moment we realized we could build a

474
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: better base enclosure, and we came up with a rebuild

475
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: of a W box which was just about as big

476
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: two fifteens, weighed probably five hundred pounds. It was ridiculous,

477
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: and we had systems very quickly that were four of

478
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: those cabinets and the two by five cellular horns with

479
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: double throated drivers on the back, pretty loud, and we'd

480
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: stack those up on the side of stage. I remember

481
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: doing Iron Butterfly shows with a system like that, and

482
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: it actually worked pretty well a great low end. There

483
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: was probably a three hundred watt system tops, but what

484
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: we were using before was probably sixty. So yeah, already

485
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: were off to the races. And what happened was McManus,

486
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: which was the big company that had acts signed up

487
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: for production. We bit by bit started stealing their clients.

488
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: I think Bloitzweat and Tears might have been one of

489
00:32:52,040 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: the first ones. Iron Butterfly were the West Coast companies

490
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: that were was it Osley? Which guy is that that's

491
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: the one who's the.

492
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: About the LSD king with the grateful.

493
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I think that one of these guys

494
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: was the was the brains behind the grateful deads sound.

495
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: You know, he really understood time alignment and all this stuff.

496
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: It was a whole different concept. Those people were some

497
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 2: sort of competition, uh certainly inspiration for their technology. Yeah, No,

498
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: there was a lot of competition. But what we had

499
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: going for us was that we were very light on

500
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: our feet and we had this company in California called

501
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: SAE that was building a three hundred watt transistor app

502
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: that was uh road worthy, And we started racking those

503
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: things up and all of a sudden we were off

504
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: to the races and much louder.

505
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: Because the say he ended up being a consumer brand too.

506
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: Uh huh. So, right, how do you go from building

507
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: speakers and amplifiers to mixers desks? You know, that's a

508
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: totally different I mean they're all connected, but it's a

509
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:14,959
Speaker 1: different thing.

510
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was exciting, you know. For for me, I

511
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: was kind of in the throes of what am I

512
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: going to do with my life as a seventeen eighteen

513
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 2: year old And at that point, you know, my parents

514
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: are disappointed that didn't look so good for the medical career,

515
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: and I would saying, what do I do that's going

516
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: to be able to further this career that I'm really loving,

517
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, the combination of music and electronics and invention

518
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: and and so I thought, well, I'll go to Penn

519
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: State try and get an electrical engineering degree, and I applied.

520
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: I got in. On a side note, they gave me

521
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: an interest test I think it was called the Smith

522
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: interest test when I was admitted, and it was kind

523
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 2: of a precursor to whether or not you would succeed

524
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: at what you were pursuing. And there was also the

525
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: test were dim. They gave me a fifteen percent chance

526
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: of passing as an electrical engineer, and I like a

527
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: ninety five percent chance as a psychologist and a ninety

528
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: percent as a musical arranger. So I mean, I don't

529
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: know that I really took it to heart at the time,

530
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 2: But of course, now looking back at it, they were right,

531
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: you know, because I still am not a great I

532
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: understand technical things really well. I'm not an inventor like

533
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 2: people that we eventually hired that built all this stuff.

534
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: But I was a better mixer. I understood the music intrinsically.

535
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: Sitting in an orchestra had its effect, you know. I

536
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: understood counter melodies and where parts need to be featured

537
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. It just came naturally.

538
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 2: And so as we got more and more of the

539
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: stage miked up and you had daters for drums and

540
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: bass and guitars and everything there you need, somebody then

541
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: understood what the music was. And most people were not

542
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 2: carrying their own mixers, so that became another element. Anyhow,

543
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: I wound up at Penn State and I lasted I

544
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 2: don't know, ten weeks twenty weeks before I quit and

545
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: moved into their technical program at a local community campus

546
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: and did two years and then went on the road.

547
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: And I was on the road all through college. I'd

548
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: go to classes Monday through Friday and then drive home

549
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: to let us pick up a truck and go out

550
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: for the weekend.

551
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: Okay, one of the Claire brothers goes out with the

552
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: Four Seasons. Does he come back or does he continue

553
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: to go on the road.

554
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there was scheduling like anything else. You know,

555
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: he'd be out with the Four Seasons for you know,

556
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: two months while they do the summer tour or whatever,

557
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: and then he'd have some time off. And very quickly

558
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: it became you know, I think Jane would be out

559
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 2: on the road with his set of acts. I had

560
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: mine after college, probably nineteen seventy. I had logans of Messina,

561
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: the James Gang, Stephen Stills. Yes, those were kind of

562
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: my acts that would rotate. There'd be scheduling things where

563
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: I'd have to cover for one of Jean's or Deane

564
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: would cover for one of mine. But generally speaking, we

565
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: all had sets of acts that were are our domain.

566
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so you have the clear brothers, then you're the

567
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: third person. Do they cut you in on ownership?

568
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: You know? And never? Yes, they always talked about it.

569
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: It was kind of what happened more than anything, I

570
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: think in all fairness, is that I started to realized

571
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: that this was like within a year, probably two years

572
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: after being out of college, that living on the road

573
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: like this was not what I wanted to do. The

574
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: last year I was on the road, I did three

575
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty one night ers and I drove two

576
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: hundred thousand miles and we didn't have a bus. I

577
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: did the driving and it nearly I mean, I was

578
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: in a truck accident I should have died where the

579
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 2: guy that was driving fell asleep. There was those kind

580
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: of things that were happening at that time in nineteen

581
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 2: seventy two, where I think that's when the production really

582
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: turned and everybody started to realize that. It's probably when

583
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: the ticket prices started to go up because they started

584
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: to spend money on tour buses and proper semi drivers.

585
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: Everything became what we see today on a small scale.

586
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 2: And so I by the time nineteen seventy Tree came

587
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 2: around and Stephen had given me this offer of doing

588
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 2: some studio work, it was like a godsend. It was like, oh, yes,

589
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: this is what I love.

590
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: Okay, when you left the road, how many people were

591
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: working for Clear Brothers.

592
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: Maybe twenty twenty five. We had already gone through two

593
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: generations of I think when I left we had a

594
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: six stocks semi warehouse with a wood shop, of painting

595
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: booth and electronics shop. We were building our own consoles

596
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: or own speakers or own packaging. It was a big

597
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: operation in by seventy three. And of course that's nothing

598
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: compared to the city of Litits and whatever they call it,

599
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: Rock of something. When I look, I haven't never I've

600
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: never been there. But when I see what happened out

601
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: of what we created, it's pretty cool.

602
00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: Tay Towers production. Physical production is also there. Okay, you're

603
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: on the road with all those acts. A in retrospect,

604
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: although it is fifty years ago, it seems like yesterday.

605
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:14,439
Speaker 1: How good were those systems compared to the systems of today?

606
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: Oh, it was a joke, just on the level of

607
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: how loud they were and how far they would penetrate

608
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 2: into a room. I mean, the system I took on

609
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: the road with the James guy was four speakers. That

610
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: had I had eight fifteen inch speakers, eight in four

611
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: ten minutes, and I had I had maybe six seventy

612
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: what JBL drivers for the mid range, and then about

613
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: that many for tweeters. And we would do you know,

614
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: ten thousand seats you know arenas, you know, and you'd

615
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: walk around. You could hear, I mean you could hear

616
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: there's music, but if the crowd got too excited, it

617
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: overwhelmed it. I mean, we were in the Hollywood Bowl

618
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: the other night, and I'm just that might even be

619
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 2: a Claire system. There's a whole arm of Claire Brothers

620
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: now that builds nothing but installations that are permanent. It's

621
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: almost turning to the point now where everybody realizes that

622
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: the systems are in there are great. You just bring

623
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: your own board and plug in that. I mean, it's

624
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: just there's no comparison. There's a guy that we brought

625
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 2: in that was part of this transition that really was

626
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: the kind of another what do you call it, a catalyst.

627
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: His name is Bruce Jackson, and I don't know if

628
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: you know him. He was Australian. He died unfortunately in

629
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: a plane accident about I don't know, maybe ten or

630
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: fifteen years ago. But the brilliant, brilliant sound engineer on

631
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 2: the road with Springsteen for years, did so many things

632
00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: that were He understood time delay, He understood how speaker

633
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: rays had to be. What we see was shape of

634
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: how these things are hung with. This guy invented all

635
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: of that stuff. He knew that there had to be

636
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: ways of lining up all the drivers that would all

637
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,959
Speaker 2: come out together, and the same thing with you put

638
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: delay towers in all of that stuff. And he was

639
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: such a great inventor. Well, a quick story, that's funny.

640
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: One of our accounts after Bruce was there was Elvis Presley,

641
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: and this was Bruce's account, and the Colonel had come

642
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 2: to him said, if you can build me a system

643
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: that we can hang over the stage so I can

644
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: do three sixty. I can make YadA YadA more money.

645
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: So build me something so I can have a three

646
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: sixty sound so I can remember coming home. And Bruce

647
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: would be designing this thing, and the metal shop in Efrita,

648
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: which is a little town outside of Lancaster where there

649
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: was a metal shop, and they built this giant metal

650
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 2: structure that would hold six speakers in a circle, Wilfer's

651
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: tweeters mid range, all mounted focus. And then it had

652
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: this miracle thing called a chain climber, which is a

653
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: motor that climbs a chain, so you hang a chain

654
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: from the ceiling and it hoists the whole thing up

655
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 2: right from the middle of the stage. And it came

656
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: apart in a clamshell and you'd roll it in the truck,

657
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: all pre set wired and everything, roll it out, roll

658
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: it on, hoist it up. So he built this thing

659
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 2: and probably gobs of money doing it. And he said,

660
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: would you come on the road with me for the

661
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 2: dry run. We'll do the you know, the two of

662
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: us together. You've feared me two engineers to scope out

663
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: whether this really works or not. When we get to

664
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 2: the gig, We set it up, get it in the air.

665
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 2: Everything seems to be working fine. Show starts and we

666
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: get maybe a minute into the first song and the

667
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 2: whole top end goes nothing but mush. We couldn't figure

668
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: out what's going on. And so the long short of

669
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: it is, we never thought about the fact that the

670
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: whole structure was built out of metal, and that if

671
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: anything would blow where the voice coils would touch the

672
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: metal of the driver, it would short out to everything else.

673
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: And that's why all the amps blew, all the drivers

674
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: blewe and so we had to We limped through that

675
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: one show before we realized we had to isolate everything.

676
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: But it was an embarrassment of sorts.

677
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: Okay, was that part of the deal if you went

678
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: on the road that you had to drive the truck too?

679
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, we did not have drivers in those days.

680
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: I never had a driver except on the Manassas tour

681
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: and he taught me how to drive.

682
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: Tell me about the avenu of monitors.

683
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: You know, it was my I failed. Basically. Roy came

684
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: to me and said we're going to start building monitors

685
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: bronze stage and I said, what are You're crazy? What

686
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: do we need monitors, for can't they hear themselves? And

687
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: he said, no, no, no, they want to hear themselves.

688
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: I want to build a little tiny speaker. Make it

689
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: as small as you possibly can, have an angle up

690
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: so that it points up at the guy singing. All right,

691
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: So I build it, and my heart wasn't in it,

692
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: but anyhow, so I built something rudimentary to what exactly

693
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: what we see today as far as a little monitor,

694
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: and Roy said, that's not going to do. I'm Roy

695
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: was a task master. He was a real you know,

696
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 2: you imagine your shop teacher criticizing your joinery. That's what

697
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: Roy was and probably still is. And and he turns

698
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: around and one day later cranks out basically the same thing,

699
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: but like a beautiful piece of furniture. Routed edge is

700
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: good seams weight a ton. And then he had put

701
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: them in complimentary angles so you could have two of

702
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 2: them back to back. In a case, you can roll

703
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 2: them on the truck. And so that was our first

704
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: slanted monitor, which you could say that was probably the

705
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 2: first one invented. I've heard people dispute it that maybe

706
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: on the West coast there was somebody that came up

707
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: with the same idea. It wasn't that radical an idea.

708
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: It was just the idea of what it would take

709
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: to make it run, because you're going to have to

710
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: have a separate mix to just put the vocal mic

711
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: through it or whatever he might want to hear.

712
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: So once you invent the vocal monitors and you need

713
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: a board for that, you now have two engineers on

714
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:44,959
Speaker 1: the road.

715
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got a monitor guy in a front of

716
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: house guy.

717
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: Okay, the front of house, which you did a ton of.

718
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: What's the key for a front of house mix?

719
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: Well, getting a good location is probably half of it,

720
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: you know, because most of the houses would say this

721
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: is where you can put the mixer, and in many

722
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: cases that might be so far back you really don't

723
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: know what's going on, might be behind the whole crowd,

724
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: or maybe you're off to the side where you really

725
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 2: can't tell if the low end's doing anything. In those days,

726
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: the systems were so uneven that the best place to

727
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: mix it would be right in front of the speakers,

728
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: maybe one hundred feet away. And so that's what we

729
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 2: always tried to get. If you get to a place

730
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: where you can get something, where you're actually here, then

731
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: the task becomes whether or not you know what to do,

732
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 2: you know, to make it sound good, you know what's

733
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: a good balance. And of course in those days, everybody

734
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: was enamored with the kick drum, and so that to

735
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: this day, I'm still upset with how loud people make

736
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 2: kickdrums in live pas It's like, come on, this is

737
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: like what about the rest of the band, But yeah,

738
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a matter of having a good sound check,

739
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 2: making sure that everything is balanced coming off the stage first.

740
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: And I think that's probably the thing I would always

741
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 2: do in sound check is go up on stage and

742
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: listen to what they're doing without the system on it,

743
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: and then turn on the house system and say, okay,

744
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: can you hear yourself singing out of the house, And

745
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: then you know we balanced from there, and then you

746
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: fill in the stage monitors.

747
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you're on the road with all these bands, although

748
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: you're working morning, noon and night. Needless to say, there

749
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: were no self honed cameras. But to what degree was

750
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: it sex, drugs and rock and roll or was everybody

751
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: working so hard? It really wasn't like that.

752
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 2: There's some of both, you know, it's very much it's

753
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: all the Gamut. You know both.

754
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you did so many shows. We talked about the

755
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: Elvis Show and the problem. Tell me about two great shows.

756
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. Two great shows.

757
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: Were two great tours.

758
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: Well probably you know Logins and Messina was uh we

759
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: tore over to him for about a year off and

760
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 2: on and I had a decent system. The same that

761
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 2: was so great about that band was what was coming

762
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: off stage, just like with Manassas, was almost exactly what

763
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: the record was. All the parts were there. Jimmy and

764
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 2: Messina was a taskmaster extraordinaire. The guy was you could

765
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: say he's an asshole, but really he was just very

766
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 2: focused on what was right and wrong and a real producer.

767
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: He knew what was how to how to make things

768
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: sound good and so yeah, the shows were consistently great

769
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 2: every night. You know, Kenny Logan singing and uh and

770
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: well well arranged band with lots of colors, uh, minimalized.

771
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 2: It wasn't over the top. There wasn't too much. You

772
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: could really make things sound great and so that was

773
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 2: a lot of fun and it was well run. There

774
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: was uh, you know, the touring was was reasonable. The

775
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: other one was uh, the James Gang, which which is

776
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: an amazing show. You know, good songs, Joe Walsh amazing

777
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: guitar player, but you know Jimmy and Dale. It's for

778
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 2: a three piece band. It was, and you could make

779
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 2: it sound amazing because it was so simple and but

780
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: probably the most fun that I've had mixing was the

781
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 2: Mellencamp And this is much later what happened later on

782
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: for me in a little out of order, but the

783
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: ten years from like seventy three when I started in

784
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: the studio until eighty two when Mellencamp and I had

785
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 2: our first big record with the American Full John Wood

786
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: would basically commandeer me from my studio work and say,

787
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: you got to come out in the road now. The

788
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 2: guy here's doing the sound doesn't know what he's doing,

789
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: and so I would go out in the road with

790
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: him and do tours. And this was right when he

791
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 2: was starting to pick up eight, probably eighty two to

792
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: eighty five, and we had much bigger systems then, and

793
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 2: they weren't clear systems. They were they were probably show cover,

794
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: but it was a big loud system. I didn't have

795
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: to do any of the work except show up and

796
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: mix and amazing sound shows. Probably some of my most

797
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: favorite shows are Mellencamp shows.

798
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: Okay, now you show up in Miami because Steven Still's

799
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: got you the job. You know, they're the Alberts there.

800
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: You know, Tom Dowd's working there. You show up, what

801
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: is your job? And how do they treat you?

802
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 2: They're so nice? I mean, there was certainly. The only

803
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 2: jealousy was from others who were like me, trying to

804
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: make their way through as engineers. And I had been

805
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 2: given a leg up because of Stephen, and yeah, I

806
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 2: did have you know, eight years on the road behind me,

807
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 2: and I knew how to set up equipment and run

808
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 2: on my cable. But these guys, you know, might have

809
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 2: come in and been you know, serving coffee for the

810
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 2: last two years. So there was that. But from the

811
00:52:53,920 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: other end, like the Alberts were nothing but wonderful. Everyone

812
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: was so nice to me. And I went through my

813
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: initial doing Cuban bands, you know, for probably the first

814
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,439
Speaker 2: year that I was there. It's probably a good thing,

815
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: doing a lot of any track work, building an album

816
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: in a day, really getting my editing chops up, and

817
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: I was impatient. I can remember going to the owner

818
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: of Macamerman and saying, you know, I'm gonna I'm going

819
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: to mix my first record, and he would look at

820
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 2: me like nuts. You know, there's you need about ten

821
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: years under your belt before you can be a good mixer,

822
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 2: and it was about right. Uh yeah, I would say

823
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: that Initially, I also found a niche because of my

824
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: ability as an engineer, speaker design. I was way ahead

825
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 2: of everybody else. I knew more about a lot of

826
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: elements of the technical stuff than anybody there, even the

827
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 2: even the engineering department, because we had built so much stuff.

828
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 2: And there were issues that we had with m c I,

829
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: which was the local uh Fort Lauder deal company that

830
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: built the tape machines and the consoles that I get

831
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: in arguments with about you know, they were using these

832
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: ICs in their consoles that sounded horrible, and nobody would

833
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: believe me. You know, I said, look what's going on.

834
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 2: API has got nave. All of these companies they use

835
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 2: they don't use integrated circuits, they use discrete components and

836
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: the transformers and things that sound good. And they would

837
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: just tell me, no, this is natural. It's unity in,

838
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: unity out. And no one understood that we were in

839
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: the business of coloring, that we're painting with air and

840
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 2: that you have to have things that make coloration. It's

841
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: not supposed to be what comes in goes out. That's

842
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 2: high five shit. When you're when you're recording something, it's

843
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:02,240
Speaker 2: entirely different. And so there were those kind of battles.

844
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 2: I wound up redoing a lot of the monitoring systems there.

845
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: I worked with a guy named Ed Long who was

846
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: a San Jose speaker designer. He built time ALIGNE speakers

847
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 2: monitors and we played around with that for a while,

848
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff.

849
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: So you're there. Traditionally, you know, you start as second

850
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: engineer and you work in like sixteen twenty hours a day.

851
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 1: Was that your experience?

852
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,919
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was wonderful. And overtime is the key

853
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: to survival, so you know, obviously, you know, if you

854
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: can put in one hundred hours a week every week,

855
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,919
Speaker 2: your paychecks a lot better because the minimum I went

856
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: from a great, amazing amount of money I was making

857
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: when I was on the road to virtually nothing. You know,

858
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:00,280
Speaker 2: when I started in the studio.

859
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: And what was the key to going from a second

860
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: to a regular engineer.

861
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't spend much time as a second,

862
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 2: so they threw me into the lower echelon, you know,

863
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 2: like the Cuban bands that would come in for a

864
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: day and just kind of let me flounder and I

865
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 2: would get through it. And it didn't take me long

866
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 2: before I could, you know, get through a session on

867
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: my own with with with a second engineer. I didn't

868
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: spend much time as a second engineer. Maybe no, not

869
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: really fortunate that in most cases because I was lousy,

870
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: My printing wasn't good enough, all the stuff that seconds

871
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 2: are supposed to do. Setups. Yeah, so.

872
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 1: You're doing Cuban bands, etc. What do you learn about

873
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: studio sound as a host a live sound studio engineering?

874
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 2: Well, it's like we're talking about just a second ago,

875
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 2: that painting with air is the way that I like

876
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 2: to think about this. It really is. And everybody has

877
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: a unique way that they want something to present. And

878
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 2: that's kind of why I think I've had such a

879
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: long career, is that I've always been willing to draw

880
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: a bit a different kind of painting for each band,

881
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 2: and that I, in fact, what I would do as

882
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 2: a process would be to look at it and say

883
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 2: that guy's got a certain kind of guitar tone and

884
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: some way that he plays that that's kind of special,

885
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 2: and maybe the grooves special here, and that these things

886
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 2: need to be given more room, and that thing over

887
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 2: there which is just covering everything up, maybe we just

888
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,479
Speaker 2: get rid of it. So there's this kind of very

889
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: quickly trying to make an assessment of of what's important.

890
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 2: And then because you're the engineer, you can influence all

891
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 2: this stuff without a word. You just make the balance

892
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 2: the way you hear it, and if it sounds good

893
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,439
Speaker 2: and everybody agrees, you're on your way. Well, of course

894
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: that's a whole different story. But yeah, I think that

895
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 2: that's the main difference is the creative process of it's

896
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 2: actually kind of the same thing of what a good

897
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,959
Speaker 2: producer will do is realize the strengths that he has

898
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 2: to work with and not demand out of the band

899
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: something they're not capable of.

900
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: Okay, when do you go from Cuban, you know, sort

901
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: of off the radar bands to bands with a higher

902
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: or acts with a higher profile.

903
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 2: Well, they're the ones that were my clients. Like Steven

904
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: would come in with Neil and so that would be

905
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 2: my project for that three months or whatever. I started

906
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 2: working with the Albert brothers because the Albert brothers both

907
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: liked producing and not doing so much of the engineering,

908
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 2: even though Ron was a phenomenal engineer, and as a

909
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 2: team they're really really good at what they do. They

910
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 2: wanted they wanted me to be their engineer and so

911
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 2: basically I came in and it was the three of

912
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: us and so there were jeez, pure prairie League mcgwynn,

913
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: Clark Hillman. Uh. Eventually it was John Mellencamp. Uh. The

914
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: first record I made with John was with the Albert brothers.

915
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, there was there was a ton of them.

916
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 2: So that was kind of my next step was working

917
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 2: with producer known producers at at the and they were

918
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 2: the premier producers at Criteria other than Tom Down their residents.

919
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: Tom would come and go between New York and in Miami.

920
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: So at what point, other than Steven did you start

921
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: to get your own projects? And how did you do that?

922
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: You know? There was the key was the front office

923
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 2: and knowing the person who was taking the bookings, and

924
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 2: so it would be kind of a daily checking in

925
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 2: with Margie or it was Edith and what came in, Well,

926
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 2: Cat Stevens just called in to do a day. Oh

927
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 2: what is anybody assigned in it note, what could I

928
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 2: do that I think I'm available? You know, that would

929
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 2: be that kind of thing, and so Cat Stevens would

930
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 2: come in, we'd spend the day mixing something that he had,

931
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 2: So those kind of that would be it. Further on,

932
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 2: you know, like I only had the opportunity of working

933
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 2: with Tom Dowd directly one and that was on a

934
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 2: Firefall record, and that was amazing. I mean, that's graduate

935
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 2: level production. Doesn't get any better of, you know, watching

936
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 2: somebody who really understands everything.

937
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: So how did you go from moving the faders to

938
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: being the producer?

939
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: You know, there never really was one or the other

940
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: until much later. Initially I knew that my engineering was

941
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: going to be my ticket to the producing thing. Well,

942
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: there's a whole section where I worked with the Beg's

943
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: for about three years, and that probably is part of

944
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,919
Speaker 2: the transition, is that I worked with the production team

945
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,919
Speaker 2: of Alvi Gluten, Carle Richardson and Barry Gibb and we

946
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 2: did the first thing I did with them was a

947
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 2: Barbara Skreuisan record, and it was tied into them moving

948
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 2: from doing their records at Criteria to building their own

949
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 2: studio over in Miami. Beach. They hired me to help

950
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 2: them build the studio. At the time, Criteria was starting

951
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: to be in doldrums. I think it was probably seventy eight,

952
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 2: maybe music business was tanking. All of the bands that

953
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 2: had to come to Miami to record from the Eagles

954
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 2: and Simsic and all that stuff was starting to dry up,

955
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: And so I took the job and kind of went

956
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 2: off the salary at Criteria and built their studio and

957
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 2: then helped them make the striis In record, which was

958
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: a continuation of their thing that they did with looping,

959
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 2: with making tape machines, have tape running a circle, A

960
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of brainstorming kind of stuff, no costs,

961
01:02:54,520 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: spared a lot of learning cases what not to do,

962
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 2: because we eventually spent like a million dollars on a

963
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 2: record of their own. We built drum machines that were

964
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:13,919
Speaker 2: actually drums that had arms that hit We used solenoids

965
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 2: to hit the drums and then send claviers to trigger them,

966
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 2: and we spent weeks. We had jeff Riccaro and Steve

967
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: Gadd and Russ Kunkle come in for two weeks at

968
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 2: a stretch and try and aim at a two beat

969
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: loop on a twenty four track machine. Crazy stuff, you know. Anyhow,

970
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 2: that was kind of what I did right before Mellencamp

971
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 2: called and said, will you come and make a record

972
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 2: with me? And that was when I started my transition

973
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 2: to producing. He said, you can. You can co produce

974
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 2: the record with me, but I want you to engineer.

975
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 2: I want you to help me the people keep me

976
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 2: from getting too crazy. Probably the reverse or which album

977
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 2: was that American full Okay?

978
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: Legendarily he presented it to Mercury and they said, this sucks,

979
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: We're not going to put it out and he stood

980
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: on his ground. What was the experience making the record?

981
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 2: It was horrible, you know. I booked a new studio

982
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 2: that we had just finished at Criteria for about three months.

983
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 2: One summer he came in and rented a house. I

984
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 2: had just finished working with the Beg's on a record

985
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 2: that they released it. I think I told you they

986
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 2: spent a year on it and sold forty thousand copies.

987
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 2: It was a disaster, but I'd learned so much stuff

988
01:04:55,600 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 2: about how to combine all these elements, and the lind

989
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 2: drum machine was one of the things that we were

990
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 2: playing around with. We had access to one of the

991
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 2: first ones. And so during that summer I kept on

992
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 2: saying to John, you know, it can't just be two

993
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 2: guitars based and drums. We have to have some other

994
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 2: stuff too. And I've learned all this stuff. I'm not

995
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 2: saying it's right for you. And so we started experimenting,

996
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 2: and this is what Jack and Diane came out of

997
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 2: the use of the lind drum machine, and event we

998
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 2: worked on that for the whole summer. It took forever

999
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 2: to figure out how to I think Kenny was even

1000
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 2: on with you, and he described how long it took

1001
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 2: until he finally came up with a drum beat that

1002
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 2: was like, Goddess out of this adul drums of that,

1003
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's like anyhow, the record was really hard John.

1004
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I think he would admit this too, that

1005
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 2: he really didn't understand songwriting and arranging yet. And I

1006
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 2: wasn't very good at it either. I mean, my my,

1007
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 2: I didn't have one hundred songs that I knew how

1008
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 2: to play on an instrument, which I think is that's

1009
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 2: where good arranging and songwriting comes from. And so we struggled,

1010
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 2: you know, with a lot of things that weren't really

1011
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 2: that good, but we got Jack and Diane out of it,

1012
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 2: and we did finish it during that three months long

1013
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 2: short of it is, we handed it in and I

1014
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 2: think the comment was what happened to our Neil Diamond?

1015
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 2: What are you guys doing? And they wanted to drop him?

1016
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 2: Was the net net? There were a lot of conversations.

1017
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 2: I remember he was talking to Jimmy Ivan. I think

1018
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 2: Jimmy Ivan was like, I don't know that he was

1019
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 2: really trying to work his way in, but he was

1020
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 2: certainly somebody that was offering opinions. And fortunately Billy Gaff,

1021
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 2: who was John's manager and label, had enough faith in

1022
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 2: him to to keep on shopping. You started shopping it

1023
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 2: and we gave it a rest and then went back

1024
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 2: in the studio for another stint for a month, and

1025
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 2: by then he had paired up with a songwriter named

1026
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 2: George Green and written Hurt So Good and I think

1027
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 2: maybe two other songs, and we recorded four more songs

1028
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 2: and then finished the album, turned it in, still didn't

1029
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 2: like it, and it went through another couple of months

1030
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 2: of the label losing interest until had a promotion at

1031
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: the rock radio said I'm going to give this thing

1032
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 2: a try and see if it works, and he put

1033
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 2: it on radio in Pittsburgh, I think it was Pittsburgh.

1034
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 2: He put it on rock radio, maybe ten stations, and

1035
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 2: it reacted, so they put it on one hundred and

1036
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 2: the rest is what we see today.

1037
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: So how did that feel?

1038
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: Oh? Are you kidding? I was down to that we

1039
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: had borrowed money from so many people. They had given

1040
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 2: me fifteen thousand dollars for the co production, and I

1041
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 2: didn't have any other income. And this was like a

1042
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 2: two year process. We were like borrowing money from friends

1043
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 2: and my parents and my sister just to make the

1044
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 2: house payments. And it was it was amazing. And then

1045
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 2: the fear of how am I going to like not

1046
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 2: fuck this up? I remember that being Okay, we got

1047
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 2: this far, now what you know, how are we going

1048
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 2: to keep it going? You know?

1049
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: So what was the next step?

1050
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 2: Were you? Well, get out of debt? You know? I

1051
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 2: think I did a record with Michael Stanley, who there's

1052
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 2: a legendary Cleveland you know, Bruce Springsteen ish, wonderful man,

1053
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 2: wonderful man. I made a record with him, paid me well,

1054
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 2: the Balkans treated me well, they managed him, and that

1055
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 2: got us out of debt, and by then I think

1056
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 2: there was Alan Grubman was my attorney at the time,

1057
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 2: and he got me a good deal on the American

1058
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 2: Fool record, was a fair deal for co production, and

1059
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 2: it was just a matter of waiting for the money

1060
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 2: to come in, you know, And that kind of got

1061
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 2: us out of howk. The next move was really realizing

1062
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 2: that Miami wasn't going to be good for me anymore,

1063
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:36,640
Speaker 2: that I needed to try and take advantage of some

1064
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 2: of this heat and see if I can maybe move

1065
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 2: to Los Angeles or New York and get some more work.

1066
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 2: So I thought Los Angeles. I was never that enamored

1067
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 2: with New York. It was not my kind of town.

1068
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 2: And so I moved out and knocked on doors for

1069
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,680
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks and didn't get really didn't get

1070
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 2: my foot in the door, and I was at a

1071
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 2: loss and I didn't want to do and I thought,

1072
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, who do I know that would maybe have

1073
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 2: an idea? And I was thinking, well, Bobby COLUMBI wasn't

1074
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 2: a close friend, but he was somebody that I toured

1075
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 2: with and he knew who I was, and so I

1076
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 2: managed to get his phone number and I called him

1077
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 2: up and Bobby was like, done, you need an agent,

1078
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 2: you need a manager. You can't You'll never get anywhere.

1079
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 2: And the guy you need is Bob Boziak. And yeah,

1080
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 2: he did me such a solid what a great guy. Anyhow,

1081
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 2: So I met Bob, and Bob took me on and

1082
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 2: told me to turn my beard up a little bit

1083
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 2: and sent me out on meetings and got me some

1084
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 2: work and bit by bit, but generally speaking, for the

1085
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 2: first few years, it was from one mel Camp record

1086
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 2: to the next that built my momentum.

1087
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: You're talking about we implying a significant other. When did

1088
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 1: you have time to even find a significant other?

1089
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 2: I met Grace, my wife currently, and then to my

1090
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 2: only wife in nineteen seventy eight, right around the time

1091
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 2: that I switched from Criteria to working with the Bechis,

1092
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 2: and we got married in seventy nine. And yeah, it's

1093
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 2: been forty five years.

1094
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:40,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So you work on the next album, Pink Houses,

1095
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 1: which is also a success, and then the breakthrough of Scarecrow.

1096
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: You're doing all this with Mellencamp. Anything else going on

1097
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: of any significance other than Mellencamp, Well.

1098
01:11:52,840 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 2: It was I need a discography. Cock Robin. Probably that's

1099
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 2: one in there that I recall being in amongst the

1100
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 2: Mellencamp brack oh Arian that's the big one. Yeah, nineteen

1101
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 2: eighty maybe eighty four, Yes, it was. It might have

1102
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 2: been right after the Aha record, which was our second record,

1103
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 2: which we did in a shack which I built out

1104
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 2: of a mobile recording truck, and Arim was looking for

1105
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: a producer. They didn't like the idea of me. I

1106
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: was too mainstream, too known. They wanted somebody more esoteric. Probably. Anyhow,

1107
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 2: I had gotten the invite through one of John's guitar

1108
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:58,679
Speaker 2: techs and he knew somebody there in Athens and got

1109
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 2: a meeting awkward, very very awkward situation. Ben was lovely,

1110
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 2: Michael Stipe was elusive, as always seems to be. Net

1111
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,559
Speaker 2: was that they decided to try me out in a

1112
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 2: local studio. I went into a studio, did a demo

1113
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 2: with him, and they really liked it. And so I

1114
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 2: had just finished building a studio for John in Indiana

1115
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:28,799
Speaker 2: from the ground up. It was like a real studio,

1116
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 2: and we decided to make the record there, which was

1117
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 2: a blast and probably one of the most revealing records

1118
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 2: of my career as far as style and how I produce.

1119
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 2: Learned so much from them.

1120
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 1: So how was the process these You know, Michael Stipe

1121
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 1: is a guy who's got a reputation for knowing what

1122
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: he wants and having it go that way.

1123
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: You know what we did was we did the tracks first,

1124
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 2: because Peter Buck, I think it probably would be the

1125
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 2: core songwriter of sorts. He came in with the core

1126
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:10,320
Speaker 2: you know, this is what I've written, this verse, chorus,

1127
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 2: no words. Everybody kind of put parts together. They did

1128
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 2: it all in their own and so we recorded guitar

1129
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 2: based and drums, and then Michael would go off with

1130
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 2: that who knows where stay up all night and come

1131
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 2: in with words that were certainly evocative, but from my perspective, nonsensical.

1132
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 2: And this was this was the discussions that he and

1133
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 2: I would have because I was pushing for let's make

1134
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 2: a radio record, Let's make something that makes sense somewhat.

1135
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,679
Speaker 2: You're always up a loud, have a great voice. Let's

1136
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 2: let's bring you forward into to record making. And you know,

1137
01:14:55,640 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 2: we had our arguments. He he didn't see a that way,

1138
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 2: and I began to see it his way, and I

1139
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 2: think he saw I think there was a middle that

1140
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 2: we both came to He for sure became comfortable with

1141
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,639
Speaker 2: my idea of the balance being that I could make

1142
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 2: his voice sound consuming so that you didn't think about

1143
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:18,559
Speaker 2: what he was saying. You thought about, Wow, what a

1144
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 2: great sound he makes with his He's got a great voice.

1145
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 2: And then we made the production just a little fuller

1146
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 2: and a little more esoteric because I had a pump organ,

1147
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:33,639
Speaker 2: some unusual instruments that we had found that we that

1148
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:38,760
Speaker 2: we would use, and Michael Mills, Mike Mills was like

1149
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 2: my partner in crime. He could play everything, and I'd say,

1150
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 2: what about if we had a part that came in here,

1151
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 2: can you do something, you know, maybe just to spend

1152
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 2: through here, you know. And so we colored our way

1153
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 2: through it, and then it was a blast, and really

1154
01:15:55,400 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 2: it really made me start to trust a not being

1155
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:01,839
Speaker 2: in control.

1156
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,679
Speaker 1: Okay, at what point do you become just a producer

1157
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: and you hire an engineer?

1158
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 2: Right around then, probably I think, oh, Jimmy Barnes and

1159
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 2: all the Melancamp records. We would hire extra engineers, like

1160
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 2: I would be doing the overdubs, I'd be running the

1161
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:35,679
Speaker 2: tape machine, I'd be doing the editing. When it came

1162
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 2: to mixing, because we were doing everything manually. There'd be

1163
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,600
Speaker 2: three sets of hands on the board. It would be

1164
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 2: that old style where we'd be rehearsing and editing and

1165
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 2: you know, working your way through. So I was never

1166
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 2: doing it by myself. There would always be Greg Edward

1167
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:58,840
Speaker 2: was one of the engineers, God rest his soul. Ed Thacker.

1168
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 2: No attacker was on Barnes. Dave Dillner a great engineer.

1169
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 2: He did pink houses that era of records. So I

1170
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 2: always had somebody that was an engineer that I was

1171
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 2: producing per se in addition to engineering. And it wasn't

1172
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 2: until much later after I stopped working with Melan Camp

1173
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 2: that I started using engineers for a short period of time,

1174
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 2: mostly across the Jimmy Barnes records, which was Australian artist

1175
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 2: that I started working with and maybe eighty nine wonderful

1176
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 2: guy probably made four or five records with him.

1177
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 1: Okay, they're varying kinds of producers. They're producers who were engineers,

1178
01:17:56,479 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 1: have an engineer personality. It's more about getting ving in

1179
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 1: and then there are divas come up with their own

1180
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: ideas and are constantly battling where are you and how

1181
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,599
Speaker 1: important is that you make the band happy, or you

1182
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: make yourself happy with the record.

1183
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 2: You know. I think that for me, I'm certainly not

1184
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 2: a songwriter. I don't have any songwriting credits, and I

1185
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,760
Speaker 2: don't play a guitar enough to say play a C

1186
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:31,760
Speaker 2: major at this moment. But I know all of the

1187
01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:35,759
Speaker 2: words about how to make someone who knows those things

1188
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 2: do what I want. I don't do well in situations

1189
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:45,840
Speaker 2: that the song is not any good in the first place.

1190
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:47,439
Speaker 2: I'm not going to come in and save the day

1191
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 2: fixing a song. I might be able to produce it

1192
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:55,080
Speaker 2: better so that it fits, you know, but yeah, I

1193
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:59,560
Speaker 2: need more to work with. I think the specialty for

1194
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 2: me has always been that I have enough of all

1195
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,599
Speaker 2: the different bases that I can cover a week link

1196
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:09,400
Speaker 2: if the band's good. So in some situations I might

1197
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 2: be more of a task master about the performance. You know.

1198
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe it's it's not tight enough for the grooves wrong.

1199
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 2: Another situation, it might be it needs a bridge. You

1200
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 2: guys need to go out there and write a bridge

1201
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 2: for this. So it's more about asking the questions. I

1202
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 2: think the other thing, it's even more important. Producers usually

1203
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 2: wind up in the position of picking the songs So

1204
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:40,160
Speaker 2: if you're given a set of fifty songs, are you

1205
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 2: capable of picking the ones that are the right group

1206
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 2: of songs for the band? Which ones are the hits?

1207
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying I've picked the hits over the years,

1208
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,839
Speaker 2: because anything but the truth. But I've been near them,

1209
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 2: you know, and I was involved in making them before

1210
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:57,560
Speaker 2: they became hits. But in almost all the cases, I

1211
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 2: you know, with Melanchamp with it's like, well, hurts so good,

1212
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 2: it's probably our hit. Well we hoped, you know, but

1213
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. We thought hold my hand might be it. Two.

1214
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:13,479
Speaker 1: Okay, So how important is it to maintain a good

1215
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 1: relationship with the act you're producing.

1216
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,080
Speaker 2: I think it's very important. I think that if you don't,

1217
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 2: you don't have a I mean, you're going to argue.

1218
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 2: I'm not denying that that you can have an argument

1219
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 2: with somebody, but you I can't say that I've had

1220
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,599
Speaker 2: success with situations where I'm not getting along with the artists.

1221
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,960
Speaker 1: And to what degree does an artist's opinion of the

1222
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:43,040
Speaker 1: experience in the project depend on commercial and critical success.

1223
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:46,720
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that most of the people that

1224
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 2: I've worked with that's very important. I can't say, Ariam

1225
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 2: would probably want to be one of the few that

1226
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,439
Speaker 2: would tell you, oh, I don't care. You know. Really

1227
01:20:55,479 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 2: they did want success. The more artsy people that I

1228
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 2: worked with, the record's never happened, you know, So I

1229
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:11,440
Speaker 2: don't know. I think everybody's you know, in that world,

1230
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 2: and this is all we could get lost in this one,

1231
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,160
Speaker 2: the whole thing about what happened. We can make records

1232
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 2: and you can give it to a great label. But

1233
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 2: I have so many stories. Whodi's one of them. Of

1234
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 2: they sign it on research. The research says this is

1235
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:37,240
Speaker 2: something people like you make the record. It goes into

1236
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 2: the record company. The record company thinks that shit, they

1237
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 2: don't that. All of the politics that go on in

1238
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 2: the company do everything that's possible to drown the record.

1239
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 2: Finally somebody comes along who has power over the president

1240
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:54,800
Speaker 2: that makes it peak through and now it's made its

1241
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:59,600
Speaker 2: way to being visible. Now that's the one of the

1242
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 2: biggest records of all time. Hoody and the Blowfish Crack

1243
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:06,920
Speaker 2: rear View, that was so close to not even seeing

1244
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:10,799
Speaker 2: the light of day, so close they'd only invested seventy

1245
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:15,720
Speaker 2: thousand dollars in it. They weren't like far along that

1246
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 2: happened to me quite a bit. Nearly happened with Mellencamp.

1247
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,720
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about the seventy thousand dollars. To what

1248
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: degree was it your responsibility to deal with the budget

1249
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 1: and make sure you're living within the lines.

1250
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 2: It's pretty much always. I mean now, I've even had

1251
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 2: money taken out of my back end because I went

1252
01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 2: over not a lot, but I knew that that. You know,

1253
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 2: one of my first responsibilities was coming in under budget.

1254
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,799
Speaker 2: And if I thought I needed more money, which sometimes

1255
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 2: I did, that you went back to them and got

1256
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 2: their approval before you spend it. But yeah, I would

1257
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 2: say that running a ship that's on course and under

1258
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:05,040
Speaker 2: a budget I always thought was a big part of

1259
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 2: the job.

1260
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:10,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you work with Bruce Hornsby's first album made his

1261
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:13,439
Speaker 1: name as the Way It Is, et cetera. Second album

1262
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: not as successful. You did the third album, A Night

1263
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 1: on the Town, which is either the absolute best work

1264
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:21,360
Speaker 1: he did or you know, you can compare it to

1265
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: the first album, phenomenal record. Can you tell me about

1266
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:24,960
Speaker 1: making that record?

1267
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 2: Uh? What a great guy. I just saw him about

1268
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 2: six months ago, play up here in Oxnard, actually in Ventura.

1269
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 2: No OHI it was an OHI gig outdoors. It was amazing,

1270
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 2: A great, great guy what I mean, just so full

1271
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 2: of positive energy and friendly and just a magnet for musicians. Uh.

1272
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,880
Speaker 2: You know, it was tricky. It was the first record

1273
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 2: that he had made, you know, using a band in

1274
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 2: the asked. He had always you know, used machines and

1275
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 2: his signature Juno piano kind of sound that kind of

1276
01:24:08,280 --> 01:24:12,439
Speaker 2: featured mostly drum machine and uh and piano in his voice.

1277
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 2: So he wanted to make a more band oriented thing.

1278
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:22,400
Speaker 2: And I would say it was pleasant. He did not

1279
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:25,840
Speaker 2: argue a lot. He was very positive. Uh. Probably the

1280
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 2: most difficulty we had was was in the mixing. He

1281
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:35,200
Speaker 2: he turned into Bruce Springsteen and and and had just

1282
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:39,040
Speaker 2: clear mountains told me his stories about Bruce once twenty

1283
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 2: mixes snare up, one dB, snare down, one dB based,

1284
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:46,760
Speaker 2: drum up, one dB based down, one snare up. You

1285
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:51,920
Speaker 2: know these take all these combinations home. We had a

1286
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:54,760
Speaker 2: little bit of that getting the mixes to where he

1287
01:24:54,840 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 2: was happy, but that was the only thing that And

1288
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,959
Speaker 2: there was all of the wonderful experiences of these friends

1289
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 2: that he had come in as guests, you know, Jerry Garcia, Yeah.

1290
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:15,040
Speaker 1: Do you remember anything you might have told him to do.

1291
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:18,760
Speaker 1: To what degree your he and prints are on the.

1292
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:22,719
Speaker 2: Record, No, I mean I think that probably more than anything.

1293
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 2: But he came to me because of my talent with

1294
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 2: working with bands, which which is how to make a

1295
01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:32,920
Speaker 2: set up. You know that everybody can do. Any studio

1296
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 2: set up where the band gets to play together is

1297
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 2: that's a thing all of its own. And we did

1298
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 2: a lot of that at Criteria, a lot of that.

1299
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 2: That's one of my things that I missed so much today.

1300
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 2: You just don't hear that much of what happens when

1301
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 2: everybody's playing in the same room, go gos all around

1302
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:54,920
Speaker 2: and leak each here and there, and looking at each

1303
01:25:54,920 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 2: other and changing arrangements on the spot. It's a different style.

1304
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:03,439
Speaker 2: It creates a different kind of urgency.

1305
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:06,920
Speaker 1: And what about the issue of leakage, et cetera.

1306
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 2: Well, you realize after you become a good mixer that,

1307
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 2: oh jeez, this guitar needs a little bit of a

1308
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 2: kind of an echo. And I don't want the kick

1309
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:21,240
Speaker 2: drum to really be that dry. It sounds kind of lonely.

1310
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:24,679
Speaker 2: And when you make us set up the right way,

1311
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 2: it's all built in. And when you go back to

1312
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 2: Tom Dowd's you know Leonyard Skannard, Almond Brothers, those two.

1313
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:37,880
Speaker 2: I mean we used to say he wasn't that great

1314
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 2: of the mixer, but his ability to use leakage amongst

1315
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 2: the instruments and create a sound that's you know, we

1316
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 2: always say, if you can make a record that in

1317
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 2: the first beat we did with melanchapelot one snare drum band,

1318
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 2: you know what the song is and you know what

1319
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 2: the band is. And that was something that Tom could

1320
01:26:56,160 --> 01:27:00,520
Speaker 2: do where he created these signatures that were immediately wreckorzable,

1321
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 2: and a lot of that's leak each you know.

1322
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: Go a little bit deeper on the leakage for those

1323
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 1: people aren't sophisticated enough.

1324
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:15,840
Speaker 2: Well, when you like, studio will be, which is where

1325
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:23,040
Speaker 2: I think Layla was made. Minassis I did a Firefall

1326
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 2: record there. They it's a setup that's just one room

1327
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 2: and in the corner there's a booth that looks like

1328
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 2: a tiki bar that the drums go in and it's

1329
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 2: a dead little nothing, probably great for an R and

1330
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:39,640
Speaker 2: B sound, really tight, and then there's a piano with

1331
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,960
Speaker 2: a set of of baffles that go around it and

1332
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:45,960
Speaker 2: blankets to go over it, and there's a place where

1333
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 2: you put the guitar. It's this like time tested way

1334
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 2: that you do a setup in this room. And then

1335
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 2: there's certain microphones that use that aren't really tight patterns.

1336
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 2: They pick up a little bit around them, and that's

1337
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:03,720
Speaker 2: their joy is that they're that way. And when you

1338
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:07,320
Speaker 2: put that room together in this configuration with these instruments,

1339
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 2: it makes a sound that sounds unified. It's the guitar

1340
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:15,760
Speaker 2: mic picks a little bit of the snare and the

1341
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 2: high hat up the vocal mic in the room. Of course,

1342
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 2: that gets all kinds of stuff in it, and maybe

1343
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 2: you have to turn that off and overdub it.

1344
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,280
Speaker 1: So how do you overdub if there's leakage?

1345
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:33,559
Speaker 2: You can't, you know, you punch in. It depends, but

1346
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 2: generally speaking you have to be very careful. We would

1347
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 2: do things like punching the whole band, which is totally

1348
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 2: ridiculous if you don't have a click. But you know,

1349
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,120
Speaker 2: we were doing crazy things in those days. That was

1350
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 2: part of the joy of experimenting at Criteria.

1351
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:53,719
Speaker 1: So tell me about mixing. What's the key to mixing?

1352
01:28:56,080 --> 01:29:00,200
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it comes for me. It comes from

1353
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:05,560
Speaker 2: this place of painted with air again, so you're realizing,

1354
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 2: you know, there's the issue of the monitors, right. So

1355
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 2: everybody's got their pair of monitors that they kind of

1356
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:14,840
Speaker 2: trust that this is what's going to get you out

1357
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 2: the door and sounded good in the car. So working

1358
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:21,679
Speaker 2: from the back to the front, you need a pair

1359
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:26,479
Speaker 2: of monitors that you understand in an acoustic situation. Then

1360
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:33,080
Speaker 2: the next problem is you're taking something that is one

1361
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty decibels loud, hugely loud, and you're reducing

1362
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:41,200
Speaker 2: it so that it sounds that loud when you play

1363
01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:46,639
Speaker 2: it in these little air pods, which you know don't

1364
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 2: reproduce any kind of dynamic range. That process of squeezing

1365
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:54,280
Speaker 2: it down taking their dynamic range away so that now

1366
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:57,559
Speaker 2: you can put all of those little tiny elements that

1367
01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:59,639
Speaker 2: sound big together.

1368
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 1: It's a.

1369
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 2: Lot of trial and error. I think that I listened

1370
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 2: to Chrys Lord Algy he did a podcast on the

1371
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 2: other day, and and you know, and I admire him

1372
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 2: so much. He's mixed some records for me, and he's amazing,

1373
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 2: and he has developed a way that he channels all

1374
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 2: this stuff in like I'm describing, he reduces it down

1375
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:31,200
Speaker 2: to a certain number of things that he's going to

1376
01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:34,640
Speaker 2: look at. He pre mixes sections and gets it so

1377
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 2: it's manageable. Then he goes into his last set of

1378
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 2: things that he knows what they do to get them

1379
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 2: down so they fit together. And that's what I would do,

1380
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 2: but I would have to do a different kind of

1381
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:50,040
Speaker 2: that thing for each project in order that it would

1382
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:53,880
Speaker 2: sound totally different. And this would be where I would

1383
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:57,120
Speaker 2: say to Melichamp, let's have Clear Mountain do this mix.

1384
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,639
Speaker 2: Why are we just fooling around in our little studio

1385
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:02,240
Speaker 2: here in Indiana when we could throw it out to

1386
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,519
Speaker 2: I don't want it to sound like everybody else's record done.

1387
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 2: I don't like those SSL boards. They sound crappy. It's

1388
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:11,280
Speaker 2: got to be more open than that. You know. It's

1389
01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 2: like this is a where you get into the what

1390
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 2: makes horse races.

1391
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 1: And what is Clear Mountains magic.

1392
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:24,639
Speaker 2: It's very similar to, I think, to what Chris talks about.

1393
01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 2: It's this saying to your client. You know, he sees

1394
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 2: a song every day it comes in and he looks

1395
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:34,080
Speaker 2: at it and says, these are the parts that I

1396
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 2: think are significant, and these are less, and let me

1397
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:41,240
Speaker 2: squeeze this down to a manageable form. And then he

1398
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:47,599
Speaker 2: runs it through I think very similar colorations, compressors limit

1399
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:53,360
Speaker 2: or's echo so that he gets because the low end

1400
01:31:53,400 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 2: is kind of what regulates your whole record. If you

1401
01:31:56,240 --> 01:32:00,920
Speaker 2: can get your basin, bass drum centered so they're taking

1402
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 2: up the right amount of space, everything else follows. And

1403
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 2: that's the hard part, and that's where both of those

1404
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:08,439
Speaker 2: guys are really good at it.

1405
01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: So let's say you hire a third party mixer. Do

1406
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:21,120
Speaker 1: you give him any instruction or just say here's the tapes,

1407
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 1: go at it.

1408
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:26,920
Speaker 2: I've done both. As hard for me as a producer

1409
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:30,840
Speaker 2: to say, go at it. I got to say that

1410
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:34,919
Speaker 2: generally speaking, I know what I think are the elements

1411
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:38,800
Speaker 2: that should be featured. And if I ran into this

1412
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:42,720
Speaker 2: with Tom Lord aunt you on a record that I

1413
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:48,240
Speaker 2: was making for MCA, and I think he was right,

1414
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 2: But you know, my view of it was, you know,

1415
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 2: all these things that I thought needed to be featured

1416
01:32:53,040 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 2: at certain moments, and he was like, this is all

1417
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 2: this is not important. You're missing it. So maybe I

1418
01:32:59,400 --> 01:32:59,880
Speaker 2: was too close.

1419
01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:02,160
Speaker 1: So how do you decide whether to mix it yourself

1420
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:03,559
Speaker 1: or to give it to someone else.

1421
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 2: Usually that's somebody else's decision. I had a label at

1422
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 2: MCA for five years, and you know, I could make

1423
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:19,960
Speaker 2: my own decisions there for those things. But generally speaking,

1424
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:26,080
Speaker 2: when you're in in co ownership like I was with mcaight,

1425
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 2: you have a lot of people that are weighing in.

1426
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:33,120
Speaker 2: Maybe that's part of the problem, is the communal aspect

1427
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:36,519
Speaker 2: of of the way a lot of those things used

1428
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:38,960
Speaker 2: to work. Especially I saw less of that if you

1429
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:44,400
Speaker 2: worked for Warner Brothers or or or even Atlantic.

1430
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:50,280
Speaker 1: So okay, we've been through so many evolutions recording equipment.

1431
01:33:51,240 --> 01:33:54,439
Speaker 1: You know, when you're mixing, to what degree are you

1432
01:33:54,560 --> 01:34:00,080
Speaker 1: using outboard equipment outboard effects, Well.

1433
01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:07,519
Speaker 2: You know, it depends on the era, right when you know,

1434
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:10,599
Speaker 2: when I started mixing, say in nineteen eighty eighty two

1435
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 2: American full we were using you know, a Trient console,

1436
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:22,880
Speaker 2: a big a range triedent antique console and all kinds

1437
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:27,400
Speaker 2: of fair childs in eleven seventy six compressors and everything

1438
01:34:27,439 --> 01:34:30,799
Speaker 2: had had stuff on it. There was nothing that was flat,

1439
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:36,559
Speaker 2: and generally there'd be API equalizers on this thing, and

1440
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:39,479
Speaker 2: then there'd be a knave on that one, and you

1441
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:43,000
Speaker 2: know a lot of cross polonization to get a certain

1442
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 2: kind of tone. That all became much easier as it

1443
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 2: turned into good digital. Now, good digital for me didn't

1444
01:34:55,640 --> 01:35:03,800
Speaker 2: happen until probably around maybe twenty ten eight, whenever Chris

1445
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 2: started putting out his own plugins. It started to make

1446
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 2: more sense. Before that, Waves had some stuff that was good.

1447
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 2: But I think when you finally had engineers weighing in

1448
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:19,080
Speaker 2: with this is the right thing that I do, that

1449
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:23,040
Speaker 2: it really got rich. It got juicy. Before that, I

1450
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 2: started my first pro tool system I had in two thousand.

1451
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:32,120
Speaker 2: I bought because I had a daughter, and two thousand

1452
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:34,240
Speaker 2: and I knew that I didn't want to spend a

1453
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:35,840
Speaker 2: lot of time in the studio and I want to

1454
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:38,799
Speaker 2: be able to shut a mix down after four hours

1455
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 2: and go home, And so I bought a pro tool system.

1456
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:46,680
Speaker 2: And that didn't work that well. It was okay, but

1457
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:55,080
Speaker 2: the early systems were kind of thin. So but now

1458
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:57,720
Speaker 2: you know, you look at what the power of the

1459
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:02,720
Speaker 2: modern mixing board is amazing. How hard I used to

1460
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:07,320
Speaker 2: work to get a simple explosive snare sound. You can

1461
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:11,320
Speaker 2: probably do it in thirty seconds with what's available today.

1462
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:13,760
Speaker 2: Before it's taking me a couple of hours to set

1463
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:14,080
Speaker 2: it up.

1464
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:15,640
Speaker 1: And why is that?

1465
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,840
Speaker 2: Because you're dealing with stuff that really isn't that powerful.

1466
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:24,439
Speaker 2: You know, it's you're lucky if you can get ten

1467
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:29,439
Speaker 2: dB of compression out of an analog compression compressor, and

1468
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 2: maybe the release time is slow enough that it doesn't

1469
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 2: make something explode. You want something that opens up a

1470
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:40,479
Speaker 2: certain way. And all this stuff's immediately available with the

1471
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:43,400
Speaker 2: digital stuff because you just go in and you crank

1472
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 2: in how deep you want to go and how fast

1473
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:48,599
Speaker 2: you want it to let go. And that's just one example.

1474
01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:50,559
Speaker 2: Let alone the echo that you might put put a

1475
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:52,200
Speaker 2: gate on it, that well, let's just make it a

1476
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:56,519
Speaker 2: little longer, a little shorter, a little brighter before it

1477
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:58,439
Speaker 2: would be all look go short in the plate. We

1478
01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 2: would do it with EMT plates and now let's put

1479
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:05,360
Speaker 2: some gates on it. But well, jeez, the gates aren't

1480
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:08,519
Speaker 2: releasing right, and you know it would just be badly.

1481
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:14,559
Speaker 1: And to what degree are you equipment agnostic or you

1482
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:16,439
Speaker 1: want to work on a specific board.

1483
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:23,600
Speaker 2: Well, now you know, if I was going to I

1484
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:27,280
Speaker 2: don't do any of this anymore. So, but today, if

1485
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 2: I was going to mix a record, I would just

1486
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:33,080
Speaker 2: have a PROTOL system. I would. It would be no board.

1487
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 2: It's just that's all I would want the stuff that's available.

1488
01:37:37,479 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I still hear people talking about running it

1489
01:37:39,479 --> 01:37:42,679
Speaker 2: back through some analogus something or other that they think

1490
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 2: that makes a different sight. I don't think I believe

1491
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:47,840
Speaker 2: in that somebody else can run it through.

1492
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:50,879
Speaker 1: Tell me more about not doing this anymore.

1493
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 2: See what I'm seventy four, Well I will be the

1494
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 2: day after tomorrow, and happy birthday, Thank you. I would

1495
01:38:06,920 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 2: say that. You know, this has been a process since

1496
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:17,360
Speaker 2: about twenty fourteen of just slowing down. Well, my wife

1497
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:19,320
Speaker 2: and I didn't have children for a long time. We

1498
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 2: both were enjoying just the two of us, and up

1499
01:38:23,120 --> 01:38:28,400
Speaker 2: until nineteen ninety six, until after Hoodie's first big record,

1500
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:32,160
Speaker 2: we didn't have any children. And then, you know, obviously,

1501
01:38:32,439 --> 01:38:34,320
Speaker 2: you know, I think some of it was the fact

1502
01:38:34,320 --> 01:38:36,400
Speaker 2: that we didn't really care about having children. Then there

1503
01:38:36,439 --> 01:38:39,320
Speaker 2: was also the biological clock, oh, if we're going to

1504
01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:40,960
Speaker 2: do it, we better do it. And there was also

1505
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:42,680
Speaker 2: that oh my god, we just got to check for

1506
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:50,000
Speaker 2: wow from the Hoodie record, and it was kind of like, well,

1507
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 2: what are you going to do with your life now?

1508
01:38:51,560 --> 01:38:54,760
Speaker 2: You know, now that you have some financial security which

1509
01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:58,840
Speaker 2: we had never had before. We lived well and we

1510
01:38:58,880 --> 01:39:00,840
Speaker 2: always saved a lot because we knew that a year

1511
01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 2: from now it could be all gone. And that's the

1512
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:06,920
Speaker 2: way we lived. Then we decided to have kids.

1513
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 1: We had.

1514
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 2: We have a son who's twenty eight and or will

1515
01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:13,880
Speaker 2: be in a week, two weeks, and a daughter who's

1516
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:19,840
Speaker 2: twenty four. They're both out of school. And so I

1517
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:24,559
Speaker 2: think that what happened to me was the process of

1518
01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 2: making records, which is tedious and if you really want

1519
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 2: to do it, well, it's pretty all consuming. It's not

1520
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:37,439
Speaker 2: something you just casually do. I grew tired of it,

1521
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:44,880
Speaker 2: you know, making vocal comps. It's hard, and it just

1522
01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:47,599
Speaker 2: you know, I think I just ran my course with it.

1523
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:49,880
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I would never do it again if

1524
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 2: somebody came along. That was, you know, something that really

1525
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 2: lit me up that I wouldn't go in the studio

1526
01:39:56,280 --> 01:39:58,120
Speaker 2: for a couple of weeks or a month, you know.

1527
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:06,240
Speaker 2: But right now, between the climate of what you make

1528
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:12,280
Speaker 2: being a record producer, which is pretty negligible, you know,

1529
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:17,719
Speaker 2: it's all streaming based and there's not much money.

1530
01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:23,240
Speaker 1: In it, how hard was it to let go? Very hard?

1531
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:25,040
Speaker 1: Very hard.

1532
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:29,160
Speaker 2: I would say that it probably has been ten years

1533
01:40:29,200 --> 01:40:33,400
Speaker 2: of of trying to find other things that I find

1534
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 2: enjoyable and meaningful. Yeah, that kind of that's been the

1535
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:45,000
Speaker 2: replacing it because I'm an active person. I I like

1536
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:47,719
Speaker 2: doing all of stuff. We've bought a second home here

1537
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 2: in Channel Islands and we have a beautiful place to be.

1538
01:40:54,040 --> 01:40:58,479
Speaker 2: It's where I'm at today and I enjoy There's a

1539
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:01,479
Speaker 2: whole different kind of world. But I never We used

1540
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:03,360
Speaker 2: to have boats when we lived in Miami. I had

1541
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:07,280
Speaker 2: a three bedroom home on a canal with a sailboat.

1542
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:10,200
Speaker 2: And part of the criteria reality was my wife and

1543
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:12,639
Speaker 2: I going out in are little inflatable zodiac and water

1544
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:16,200
Speaker 2: skiing in the inner coastal before I went into the studio.

1545
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:20,280
Speaker 2: That was you know, we loved that, and so that's

1546
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:23,760
Speaker 2: coming back. We just bought a powerboat. We went out

1547
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:27,840
Speaker 2: to Santa Cruz Island yesterday and with ten other boats,

1548
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:31,120
Speaker 2: had a great time. Some findy other things that I

1549
01:41:31,200 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 2: enjoys challenging because I was never this kind of a

1550
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 2: boating person, so I don't know much about navigation, fixing things.

1551
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:42,479
Speaker 2: I'm a fix it guy. I know a lot about

1552
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:47,000
Speaker 2: all kinds of handyman stuff. So taking care of the

1553
01:41:47,040 --> 01:41:48,439
Speaker 2: boat's interesting.

1554
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:53,479
Speaker 1: To what degree letting go was because the generations change

1555
01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:55,719
Speaker 1: and there's not as many opportunities for work.

1556
01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:01,519
Speaker 2: I think he nailed it. That's totally it. Nobody was

1557
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:05,760
Speaker 2: calling me up, you know, somebody, somebody that I might like.

1558
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:08,479
Speaker 2: I'd say, well, i'll give you a hand, and they

1559
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:11,120
Speaker 2: might give me, you know, a thousand dollars to do

1560
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 2: a sount a song, and I'd spend a couple of

1561
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:15,920
Speaker 2: days on it, and it wouldn't be about the money.

1562
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 2: It would just be about, well, I like the guy,

1563
01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:19,320
Speaker 2: and I thought he needed a leg up. You know,

1564
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:21,880
Speaker 2: I'll see if I can help. I did that quite

1565
01:42:21,880 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 2: a bit over the last few years, and.

1566
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:28,759
Speaker 1: That was okay.

1567
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 2: You know I think that. I mean, I almost hate

1568
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:40,200
Speaker 2: to say this. I love music. I love making music.

1569
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 2: I love being a part of hit records, and I

1570
01:42:43,200 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 2: love getting the paycheck. And I think all of that

1571
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:52,519
Speaker 2: is hard to come by today. It's every every one

1572
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 2: of those things is hard to get at now. It's good.

1573
01:42:56,200 --> 01:42:58,519
Speaker 2: Did what you talk about all the time in your

1574
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:01,280
Speaker 2: when you write about how what you have to do

1575
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 2: in order to make it through. It's it's everyone has

1576
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:11,960
Speaker 2: the ability to get themselves out there along with two

1577
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:16,760
Speaker 2: million other people and to get through it all, and

1578
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:19,040
Speaker 2: I don't know what the solution is. Part of me

1579
01:43:19,080 --> 01:43:22,640
Speaker 2: thinks sometimes that we need more curating of people that

1580
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:24,760
Speaker 2: we respect, and I don't know who that person is.

1581
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:27,960
Speaker 2: You know, my daughter's good at it. She comes to

1582
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:30,519
Speaker 2: me with the list of things that Wow, where did

1583
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:35,720
Speaker 2: you find this person? You know, I mean a couple

1584
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:38,080
Speaker 2: of years ago, she came there with this artist, King Princess,

1585
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 2: who was like, Wow, this is amazing. Why isn't this

1586
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:44,880
Speaker 2: person huge? You know, she's a great writer, a great singer,

1587
01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 2: a sound that's totally unique, and she does okay. You know,

1588
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:53,919
Speaker 2: but I would have thought that would have been anyhow,

1589
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 2: But that world is a little different.

1590
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:58,799
Speaker 1: Right now, Let's go back to the technology for minutes,

1591
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 1: taking blog versus digital and vinyl. What are your thoughts

1592
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:04,240
Speaker 1: about all those?

1593
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 2: Well? As a producer, recording engineer, I hate vinyl. Vinyl

1594
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 2: is a nightmare. If you're trying to make a vinyl

1595
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:23,960
Speaker 2: record and have it represent anything close to what you mixed,

1596
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:29,879
Speaker 2: you should just lower your standards because the pressing process

1597
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:33,040
Speaker 2: makes it into an entirely different animal. Now, a lot

1598
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 2: of people like the way that animal sounds. But you know,

1599
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 2: when we got out of the the analog thing. I

1600
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:45,719
Speaker 2: love the way analog records sound. I love old equipment

1601
01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:49,040
Speaker 2: that and I love new equipment that's made with all

1602
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:52,160
Speaker 2: the things that I understand about. Maybe we're going to

1603
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:55,200
Speaker 2: talk for a second about the fact that transformers create

1604
01:44:55,920 --> 01:45:00,280
Speaker 2: a distorted waveform. It will make a square wave into

1605
01:45:00,320 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 2: something that looks like a bunch of wiggles. And that

1606
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:07,080
Speaker 2: wiggle is the sound that we all love. And so

1607
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 2: analog is a wonderful thing. It colors and worms. If

1608
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:14,360
Speaker 2: it's what you want or what you need right now,

1609
01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:16,559
Speaker 2: I think you should use that stuff along the way.

1610
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:19,920
Speaker 2: New digital stuff does that just as well. It emulates it.

1611
01:45:19,960 --> 01:45:26,720
Speaker 2: They've figured out these equations. Now as far as going

1612
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 2: back to tape, give me a break, is that's a wink.

1613
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:34,719
Speaker 2: It's I'm not hearing the difference. So my my hearing

1614
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 2: is not the greatest, but it's good enough to get

1615
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:41,679
Speaker 2: me by, you know. And and I think that better

1616
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 2: better to use that on good microphones, good compressors. If

1617
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:47,679
Speaker 2: you want to use all your analog gear when you record,

1618
01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:49,360
Speaker 2: that's great, record it.

1619
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, let's go back to a couple of records.

1620
01:45:54,040 --> 01:45:57,800
Speaker 1: Tracy Chapman has huge success with the first album Fast Car.

1621
01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:01,360
Speaker 1: Then does not have success, even worked with Jimmie I

1622
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 1: Leven doesn't have success. Then she worked with you and

1623
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:07,920
Speaker 1: has the biggest record of her career. Tell us about that.

1624
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:20,120
Speaker 2: She's a doll. It was, you know, it was. It

1625
01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:23,000
Speaker 2: was a wonderful experience. I gotta say, we did it

1626
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:27,040
Speaker 2: in San Francisco, or not in San Francisco. What's the name.

1627
01:46:27,120 --> 01:46:29,400
Speaker 2: It's up near Lucas Ranch out in the woods there.

1628
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:34,599
Speaker 2: I don't remember the studio's name, but old big Neve console.

1629
01:46:35,920 --> 01:46:40,840
Speaker 2: She liked recording digitally, so it was a Missubishi thirty

1630
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:42,280
Speaker 2: two track. I think it was the first time I'd

1631
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:46,360
Speaker 2: ever used that particular machine. And that made sense because

1632
01:46:46,400 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 2: a lot of her material is very quiet. There needed space,

1633
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 2: it needed depth to not be occupied by his or

1634
01:46:56,200 --> 01:47:05,000
Speaker 2: tape noise, and so that was okay. She also, like Hornsby,

1635
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 2: wanted to make a record with a band, and in

1636
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:12,320
Speaker 2: the past she had used a band that played after

1637
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:16,200
Speaker 2: she recorded. She like they would like Fast Car was.

1638
01:47:16,640 --> 01:47:20,320
Speaker 2: She she played it alone and then Danny Farnkheiser would

1639
01:47:20,320 --> 01:47:21,680
Speaker 2: go in and he played the drums to it, and

1640
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:24,360
Speaker 2: then everybody would follow him. And that's the way she

1641
01:47:24,479 --> 01:47:28,439
Speaker 2: made her records because she I think was probably not

1642
01:47:28,439 --> 01:47:32,200
Speaker 2: comfortable playing with other people. That confused her. I think

1643
01:47:32,240 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 2: that her being on the road by the time I

1644
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:39,920
Speaker 2: started working with her, she was very comfortable working with

1645
01:47:39,960 --> 01:47:42,920
Speaker 2: playing with people. And she had come up with this

1646
01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:47,879
Speaker 2: set of material with a band that they were friends.

1647
01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:53,280
Speaker 2: It was a unit, you know. So that was really

1648
01:47:53,400 --> 01:47:58,040
Speaker 2: nice because she she basically came in with something that

1649
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:02,920
Speaker 2: I recorded live, and we kept a lot of it live.

1650
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:16,720
Speaker 2: She was picky, but not unduly, you know. There were

1651
01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:19,200
Speaker 2: ideas that I would put forth about, you know, how

1652
01:48:21,160 --> 01:48:25,160
Speaker 2: we might record her voice and her guitar together. Because

1653
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:27,160
Speaker 2: we did a lot of it and kept everything. We

1654
01:48:27,240 --> 01:48:32,439
Speaker 2: didn't overdone many guitar vocals, as I recall, so a

1655
01:48:32,479 --> 01:48:34,160
Speaker 2: lot of it was built around whether or not we

1656
01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:41,120
Speaker 2: liked the vocal and the guitar performance, and a mixing

1657
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:47,639
Speaker 2: process got a little trickier. And there was this one

1658
01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:53,320
Speaker 2: song called The Promise that was just her playing acoustic guitar,

1659
01:48:54,280 --> 01:49:00,760
Speaker 2: that amazing song that she I don't know, I never

1660
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:03,840
Speaker 2: really did understand exactly what she was looking for. I

1661
01:49:03,920 --> 01:49:07,400
Speaker 2: think that probably that was okay, but we played it

1662
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:11,120
Speaker 2: every day for I'm going to say at least a month.

1663
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:13,720
Speaker 2: While we were mixing, it would be the end of

1664
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:15,120
Speaker 2: the day, Okay, let's do a couple of takes to

1665
01:49:15,160 --> 01:49:18,120
Speaker 2: the promise, and then she'd come in the next day

1666
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:19,960
Speaker 2: and it was long. It was like a six minute song,

1667
01:49:20,080 --> 01:49:23,400
Speaker 2: and she would come in the next day and say, no,

1668
01:49:23,439 --> 01:49:25,639
Speaker 2: that's not it, We'll have to do it again. And

1669
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:29,479
Speaker 2: that went on for quite a while. Eventually, she uh,

1670
01:49:30,080 --> 01:49:35,040
Speaker 2: after about I don't know, maybe one hundred takes, she

1671
01:49:35,280 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 2: found something that she liked and we dressed it up

1672
01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:47,080
Speaker 2: with violin and cello and a few other things. Beautiful song.

1673
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 1: Though you have any idea that the album and give

1674
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:54,560
Speaker 1: me one reason we're going to be so huge?

1675
01:49:55,160 --> 01:50:00,880
Speaker 2: None? And the thing was that, you know, everybody was, well,

1676
01:50:01,080 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 2: we don't have a single, and because all the songs

1677
01:50:05,080 --> 01:50:09,840
Speaker 2: were you know, five, six, seven, eight minutes long, and

1678
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:13,160
Speaker 2: she would not editing was not in the thing in

1679
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:16,880
Speaker 2: the equation, and she said, you guys will figure it out. Well,

1680
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:19,720
Speaker 2: I think give me one reason. Was three minutes and

1681
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:22,240
Speaker 2: forty five seconds was the only song on the record

1682
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:27,559
Speaker 2: that was short enough. And so the record company kind

1683
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:30,439
Speaker 2: of threw their arms up and said, well, let's just

1684
01:50:30,479 --> 01:50:33,360
Speaker 2: put this one out because it's the only one that's

1685
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:35,840
Speaker 2: shortened for radio, and she won't let us edit anything else.

1686
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:37,680
Speaker 2: There were a couple other songs that they liked, but

1687
01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:42,840
Speaker 2: she wouldn't, so anyhow, they put it out and it was,

1688
01:50:43,400 --> 01:50:47,280
Speaker 2: as I recall it, it made a tour of the formats.

1689
01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:50,760
Speaker 2: It might have whatever it was at Triple A and

1690
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:54,040
Speaker 2: then adult and then pop I think it was, or

1691
01:50:54,080 --> 01:50:58,920
Speaker 2: maybe college, Triple A adult pop. It went through like

1692
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 2: four different formats that each one of them lasted probably

1693
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:03,760
Speaker 2: three or four months while it worked its way up

1694
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:05,439
Speaker 2: the chart. Then it would go to this one and

1695
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:10,439
Speaker 2: so over a year it had a year of on

1696
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:14,320
Speaker 2: the charts, And I think that's what what did it?

1697
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:17,640
Speaker 2: It just it just bit by a bit opened up

1698
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:18,320
Speaker 2: another section.

1699
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 1: Now she did not use you on the next album.

1700
01:51:28,280 --> 01:51:30,280
Speaker 1: What's it like to have so much success in someone?

1701
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:33,160
Speaker 1: The same thing with Hornsby, although he didn't use a band,

1702
01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 1: it was a solo record. Thereafter, what's it like for

1703
01:51:36,280 --> 01:51:38,920
Speaker 1: them to say, great, we had used success and then

1704
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:39,640
Speaker 1: they don't call you.

1705
01:51:43,479 --> 01:51:49,320
Speaker 2: M I what I was doing? You know? I don't know.

1706
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:53,879
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because Bruce just mentioned that when

1707
01:51:53,920 --> 01:51:58,160
Speaker 2: I saw him recently that he says because he built

1708
01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:00,320
Speaker 2: a studio. I think maybe that's part of the answer

1709
01:52:00,360 --> 01:52:03,360
Speaker 2: for him. Was after the record that we did, they

1710
01:52:03,400 --> 01:52:07,320
Speaker 2: bought this place in Williamsburg in Virginia where he lives now,

1711
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:11,120
Speaker 2: and a large property, and he built a studio. And

1712
01:52:11,640 --> 01:52:13,640
Speaker 2: I remember looking at the plans for the studio and

1713
01:52:13,680 --> 01:52:15,559
Speaker 2: he hadn't put any kind of a window in between

1714
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:19,760
Speaker 2: the control room and and the recording space. And I

1715
01:52:19,800 --> 01:52:22,479
Speaker 2: looked at him and said, you need a window something

1716
01:52:22,680 --> 01:52:24,840
Speaker 2: so that you can at least, you know, point at

1717
01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:28,479
Speaker 2: somebody to give a cue something. Put a window in

1718
01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:30,719
Speaker 2: And he said to me just the other day, he says,

1719
01:52:30,920 --> 01:52:33,880
Speaker 2: we have the don game and window. And It's like,

1720
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:36,639
Speaker 2: what do you mean? You know, what are you talking about?

1721
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:38,559
Speaker 2: So he says, we think of you every time that

1722
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:41,160
Speaker 2: we go through that window. You're right, And he said

1723
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:43,200
Speaker 2: I would have used you if it hadn't been for

1724
01:52:43,240 --> 01:52:45,400
Speaker 2: the fact. And I forget what the reason was, but

1725
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:51,400
Speaker 2: he kind of apologized for it, not continuing. I don't know,

1726
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:55,080
Speaker 2: I'm a little I'm not sure what I was doing

1727
01:52:55,200 --> 01:52:59,040
Speaker 2: at that time. It could have been the whole ninety

1728
01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 2: four to six. There were Hoody records in there there

1729
01:53:02,479 --> 01:53:05,640
Speaker 2: was me looking for a label deal with Jeff Aldridge

1730
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:10,960
Speaker 2: and Larry Frasen, and I had this thing in my

1731
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:16,200
Speaker 2: head because my my manager at the time. It'll come

1732
01:53:16,200 --> 01:53:24,320
Speaker 2: back in a second, Sandy robertson, Yeah, you know, there

1733
01:53:24,320 --> 01:53:26,320
Speaker 2: were there were all of these things that I was

1734
01:53:26,920 --> 01:53:30,560
Speaker 2: furthering my career or whatever, you know. To who knows,

1735
01:53:31,040 --> 01:53:34,639
Speaker 2: it does seem odd. But I know that Tracy was

1736
01:53:34,760 --> 01:53:41,439
Speaker 2: upset with me because after the big success with I

1737
01:53:41,439 --> 01:53:43,760
Speaker 2: don't think she would mind me sharing this because it

1738
01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:48,760
Speaker 2: was a shortcoming on my part. There was an edit

1739
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:50,920
Speaker 2: that was on one of the other songs that they

1740
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:54,360
Speaker 2: thought they could make it work, and she wanted to

1741
01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:59,000
Speaker 2: use this new pro Tools system that let you turn

1742
01:53:59,040 --> 01:54:02,920
Speaker 2: off the edit things horizontally, which is what we all

1743
01:54:02,960 --> 01:54:05,400
Speaker 2: do all over the place. Now, you know, keep the

1744
01:54:05,479 --> 01:54:07,559
Speaker 2: drums here, but take the guitar from the first verse.

1745
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:09,960
Speaker 2: She wanted to be able to do that, and I

1746
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:12,320
Speaker 2: didn't know that this was Kate. I thought it was

1747
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:16,160
Speaker 2: just an editing thing, like normal editing, but digital. And

1748
01:54:16,200 --> 01:54:19,600
Speaker 2: when I came in too, I've done. She was not

1749
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:21,640
Speaker 2: happy with the fact that I was not up to

1750
01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:27,000
Speaker 2: speed on the technology that she wanted to use and

1751
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:29,599
Speaker 2: that might have might have colored the future.

1752
01:54:30,600 --> 01:54:34,000
Speaker 1: So tell us about whody.

1753
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:39,160
Speaker 2: Well. Hoody is probably the happiest experience I've ever had,

1754
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:43,080
Speaker 2: and it was at a time in my career where

1755
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:47,080
Speaker 2: things were a little dark. You know. This would have

1756
01:54:47,120 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 2: been ninety four and Sandy Robertson was a manager i'd

1757
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:55,480
Speaker 2: just started working with. My career had kind of sunk off.

1758
01:54:55,720 --> 01:54:59,280
Speaker 2: I'd done quite a few records in Australia that did well,

1759
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:06,400
Speaker 2: was making some money, but people weren't asking me to produce,

1760
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:09,400
Speaker 2: and you know, it was like the prices were coming down,

1761
01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:18,040
Speaker 2: and so he thought I should try and do something

1762
01:55:18,120 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 2: more like a Green Day kind of a project. And

1763
01:55:22,440 --> 01:55:24,760
Speaker 2: it was mad Abrially. I appeared, which label he was

1764
01:55:24,760 --> 01:55:28,680
Speaker 2: at at the time, had an act from Massachusetts called

1765
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:36,040
Speaker 2: The Fix or No the Figs, and they were very punky,

1766
01:55:36,240 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 2: and so I thought, well, you know, it's good, the

1767
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:41,840
Speaker 2: good songs, and everybody was very excited about them. And

1768
01:55:42,720 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 2: at the same time, Tim Summer, who was working at

1769
01:55:45,960 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 2: Atlantic at ann Or at the time, came to me

1770
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 2: with some demos that hood he had done. Actually it

1771
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:56,120
Speaker 2: was a cassette that they were distributing on the road,

1772
01:55:55,440 --> 01:55:59,840
Speaker 2: and I heard it. I thought, Yo, this is good,

1773
01:55:59,880 --> 01:56:02,440
Speaker 2: but it's kind of like what I've been doing, you know,

1774
01:56:02,560 --> 01:56:04,720
Speaker 2: it's not I'm not sure if this is where we're

1775
01:56:04,760 --> 01:56:07,600
Speaker 2: going or not. I was kind of okay, I'll do it.

1776
01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:12,760
Speaker 2: I can't afford to say no to anything, really, but

1777
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:15,800
Speaker 2: I want to do this other thing first. So I

1778
01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:21,000
Speaker 2: met with the band and Lovely People and we said

1779
01:56:21,080 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 2: just let's do it. And I made the record with

1780
01:56:24,200 --> 01:56:27,920
Speaker 2: the other band, which was my focus at the time,

1781
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:33,040
Speaker 2: that sold like two thousand copies, and then went into

1782
01:56:33,080 --> 01:56:36,160
Speaker 2: the studio with Hoodie and it was a little discouraging.

1783
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 2: The label gave me fifty thousand dollars to make the

1784
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:45,520
Speaker 2: record and then I think I got twenty. It was

1785
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:49,600
Speaker 2: pretty tight, you know, I budgeted out it was time

1786
01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:53,480
Speaker 2: for like maybe eighteen days in the studio, including the mixing,

1787
01:56:54,320 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 2: so I had ten days to cut the tracks and

1788
01:56:55,800 --> 01:57:00,600
Speaker 2: overdub and maybe a week to mix. And so we

1789
01:57:00,640 --> 01:57:06,360
Speaker 2: went in and and they were yes on whatever you

1790
01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:09,560
Speaker 2: want us to do. You know, we're a little can

1791
01:57:09,600 --> 01:57:12,360
Speaker 2: you work something out because the NBA is playing this

1792
01:57:12,440 --> 01:57:15,680
Speaker 2: afternoon between two and five, And then we got a

1793
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 2: golf tournament that Darius really wants because you schedule around

1794
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:22,000
Speaker 2: that just a little bit, okay, but if you need us,

1795
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:24,480
Speaker 2: we'll come in, don't worry about. And then Darius would

1796
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:26,680
Speaker 2: be on the golf course at you know, six o'clock

1797
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:29,640
Speaker 2: in the morning and show up at eleven like he

1798
01:57:29,720 --> 01:57:32,520
Speaker 2: was supposed to. It was this kind of thing where

1799
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:36,400
Speaker 2: they had other things that were also important in their lives.

1800
01:57:36,480 --> 01:57:39,160
Speaker 2: It was like a real view onto somebody that loved

1801
01:57:39,200 --> 01:57:44,200
Speaker 2: what they do. We're good at it, but they weren't consumed,

1802
01:57:44,400 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 2: you know, and that was good for me. And also

1803
01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:51,280
Speaker 2: they just let me do whatever I wanted. They listened

1804
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:54,320
Speaker 2: to everything I would. They would do a take, I'd say, no,

1805
01:57:54,640 --> 01:57:56,280
Speaker 2: that would that was my thing at the time. I

1806
01:57:56,320 --> 01:57:59,880
Speaker 2: pushed the talk back. No, that meant do it again.

1807
01:58:00,880 --> 01:58:07,080
Speaker 2: And Darius was just becoming the singer that we all

1808
01:58:07,120 --> 01:58:10,360
Speaker 2: hear today, which is phenomenal. Is such he's got such

1809
01:58:10,360 --> 01:58:14,120
Speaker 2: a rich voice, and he still hadn't quite zoned in

1810
01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:16,960
Speaker 2: on where his pitch was and timing, but he was

1811
01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:23,640
Speaker 2: a quick learn and yeah, we did very fast. It

1812
01:58:23,720 --> 01:58:26,360
Speaker 2: was floated that wow, it wouldn't it be nice we

1813
01:58:26,440 --> 01:58:28,560
Speaker 2: get David Crosby to come and sing on the record.

1814
01:58:29,080 --> 01:58:31,920
Speaker 2: And I don't know who called him. It was one

1815
01:58:31,960 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 2: of the dreams of but I didn't even have to

1816
01:58:34,960 --> 01:58:36,920
Speaker 2: do it. It was so somebody from Atlantic called him

1817
01:58:36,960 --> 01:58:39,600
Speaker 2: up and Don Gamon's doing a record with a band.

1818
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:41,960
Speaker 2: Would you come in and sing for Don Gamon? I'll

1819
01:58:42,000 --> 01:58:45,000
Speaker 2: do anything. And he came in, spent you know, three hours,

1820
01:58:45,040 --> 01:58:48,240
Speaker 2: told the band's stories and and gave him a bunch

1821
01:58:48,240 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 2: of advice, and sang on their first single you know,

1822
01:58:52,080 --> 01:58:54,280
Speaker 2: and you can hear Amy's right in there. It would

1823
01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:57,879
Speaker 2: not be the same without Uh. Yeah. It was a blast.

1824
01:58:58,160 --> 01:59:01,800
Speaker 2: And then of course the whole thing, like I mentioned earlier,

1825
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:06,240
Speaker 2: with we handed the record in and I wasn't sure

1826
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:10,560
Speaker 2: about it. It was like such a such a departure

1827
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:12,800
Speaker 2: from what I thought a cool thing would be for

1828
01:59:12,840 --> 01:59:15,840
Speaker 2: this moment in time, and I didn't have a lot

1829
01:59:15,840 --> 01:59:18,760
Speaker 2: of faith in it until I finished it, mastered it,

1830
01:59:20,080 --> 01:59:22,520
Speaker 2: took it home and I was doing a project with

1831
01:59:22,560 --> 01:59:25,560
Speaker 2: my wife. She's a interior designer, and she was having

1832
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:28,680
Speaker 2: me build a model of a house. And I'm good

1833
01:59:28,680 --> 01:59:30,800
Speaker 2: at that kind of stuff. So I'm building a model

1834
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:34,840
Speaker 2: and playing the reference acitate on the thing, and she said, well,

1835
01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:37,280
Speaker 2: this is pretty good, and I said, I'm surprised at

1836
01:59:38,360 --> 01:59:41,040
Speaker 2: That was the first moment that I realized that the

1837
01:59:41,080 --> 01:59:45,080
Speaker 2: record had legs. And then we handed it in and

1838
01:59:45,120 --> 01:59:47,920
Speaker 2: I'm starting to hear these horror stories about how because

1839
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:51,560
Speaker 2: the politics, well, in all record labels, but Atlantic, you

1840
01:59:51,640 --> 01:59:55,520
Speaker 2: have these little you know, on clubs and this guy's

1841
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:58,280
Speaker 2: got four heavy metal records, and this one's got this

1842
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 2: and this R and B section, Andrea is the only

1843
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:04,200
Speaker 2: one that says which ones get through? And and it

1844
02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:06,520
Speaker 2: was like, are we going to get through? And Danny

1845
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:08,919
Speaker 2: Goldberg was the president at the time, and it wasn't

1846
02:00:09,400 --> 02:00:17,480
Speaker 2: for his wife. It was Mary Carrol, thank you, who said,

1847
02:00:17,960 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 2: you've got to take care of my buddy, Timothy. This

1848
02:00:21,160 --> 02:00:24,200
Speaker 2: is his band. Don't let it, don't let it slip

1849
02:00:24,200 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 2: through the cracks. And then Doug Mars picked it up.

1850
02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:33,920
Speaker 1: So, yeah, okay, you have this gigantic success. What's it

1851
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:35,360
Speaker 1: like trying to follow that up?

1852
02:00:37,240 --> 02:00:42,360
Speaker 2: Oh it's horrible. Yeah, I mean then we're you know,

1853
02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:46,360
Speaker 2: because this went on for at least two years. Of

1854
02:00:46,440 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 2: the process of selling the first ten million units and

1855
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:55,520
Speaker 2: four singles, it was at least two years. And the

1856
02:00:55,560 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 2: band was ragged, you know this it was this was sad,

1857
02:00:58,600 --> 02:01:00,200
Speaker 2: you know, they were they were not what they were

1858
02:01:00,200 --> 02:01:02,800
Speaker 2: at the place that happens to everybody where you have

1859
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:07,760
Speaker 2: to you know, seven o'clock radio performances every city, and

1860
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:13,600
Speaker 2: then you know, just worn out. And then okay, we

1861
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:15,600
Speaker 2: got to go back in the studio and make another record.

1862
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:19,880
Speaker 2: And what made the first record was probably five years

1863
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:23,520
Speaker 2: of the band touring the mid Atlantic States, doing bars

1864
02:01:23,920 --> 02:01:29,920
Speaker 2: and writing songs together in a band. And then they

1865
02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:34,240
Speaker 2: wrote nothing for two years, and so we wound up

1866
02:01:34,240 --> 02:01:42,280
Speaker 2: with a bunch of songs that didn't mean much. You know,

1867
02:01:42,400 --> 02:01:47,360
Speaker 2: they were and you know, and everybody was mad at

1868
02:01:47,360 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 2: each other, tired of each other. Darius was starting to

1869
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:55,080
Speaker 2: feel I think, I don't know, I shouldn't speak for him,

1870
02:01:55,360 --> 02:01:57,880
Speaker 2: but I know that it was difficult for him as

1871
02:01:57,960 --> 02:02:05,920
Speaker 2: a black man, you know, with three white guys that

1872
02:02:06,040 --> 02:02:08,600
Speaker 2: it had it. He had his issues with that that

1873
02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:11,600
Speaker 2: he was working through. And so making the second record,

1874
02:02:11,920 --> 02:02:15,360
Speaker 2: we made a great SOUNDI record, but the only song

1875
02:02:15,440 --> 02:02:19,400
Speaker 2: that that sounded strong was something that had been written

1876
02:02:19,440 --> 02:02:23,600
Speaker 2: for the first record. And and then then the question was, well,

1877
02:02:23,880 --> 02:02:27,040
Speaker 2: do we put a record out now and keep on

1878
02:02:27,160 --> 02:02:29,400
Speaker 2: with the momentum or is this where you give it

1879
02:02:29,480 --> 02:02:35,480
Speaker 2: a rest? And yeah, I don't I don't know that.

1880
02:02:35,880 --> 02:02:38,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. Happened? Do you know this

1881
02:02:38,160 --> 02:02:41,200
Speaker 2: old three million units? It's like still did you know? Well?

1882
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:45,720
Speaker 2: But it's I don't know that we ever attained that

1883
02:02:46,040 --> 02:02:49,040
Speaker 2: same kind of thing that and I don't know the

1884
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 2: way I ever would have because what was wrong was

1885
02:02:51,280 --> 02:02:55,880
Speaker 2: this writing thing, you know, where the four guys they

1886
02:02:55,880 --> 02:02:59,360
Speaker 2: needed a year off from each other going out this summer,

1887
02:02:59,640 --> 02:02:59,840
Speaker 2: you know.

1888
02:03:00,800 --> 02:03:04,520
Speaker 1: Okay, so you make a deal to make a record,

1889
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:08,400
Speaker 1: let's say, with Tracy Chapman or Bruce Hornsbers, and they

1890
02:03:08,440 --> 02:03:12,120
Speaker 1: want to be co producer. How do you split up

1891
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:12,680
Speaker 1: the points?

1892
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:19,960
Speaker 2: Well, that's Sandy's job, you know.

1893
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:24,520
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask it differently. Does the act want

1894
02:03:24,560 --> 02:03:27,760
Speaker 1: its name as co producer for vanity or for the money?

1895
02:03:29,720 --> 02:03:36,520
Speaker 2: Oh vanity? You know, I think that you know this.

1896
02:03:39,040 --> 02:03:40,960
Speaker 2: It's a touchy subject for me. You know, I'm a

1897
02:03:41,000 --> 02:03:44,640
Speaker 2: record producer by trade. I'm not a songwriter. I'm not

1898
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:46,720
Speaker 2: asking for a piece of the song, even though I

1899
02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:48,880
Speaker 2: was there and maybe suggested that the melody of the

1900
02:03:48,880 --> 02:03:51,120
Speaker 2: bridge could have been different. You know. I see in

1901
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:58,480
Speaker 2: Nashville people get songwriting credits for ridiculously little contribution the

1902
02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:01,520
Speaker 2: But I never felt that way. I felt like, I'm

1903
02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:04,760
Speaker 2: a record producer. It's a tough job. I'm holding down

1904
02:04:04,800 --> 02:04:08,680
Speaker 2: the fort and we finish our work. Why do you

1905
02:04:08,720 --> 02:04:10,920
Speaker 2: have to have a credit? Which part of this? Okay,

1906
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:12,760
Speaker 2: so you're a big name, you've already had a hit.

1907
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:15,680
Speaker 2: You think I'm writing on your coattails? All right? So

1908
02:04:16,040 --> 02:04:21,240
Speaker 2: whose name's first mine? I'll give you a point, you know,

1909
02:04:21,920 --> 02:04:24,040
Speaker 2: but maybe it's a five point deal. I don't know,

1910
02:04:24,120 --> 02:04:26,560
Speaker 2: you know it's and where are we at now? I

1911
02:04:26,560 --> 02:04:28,520
Speaker 2: don't even know what this today? This is like a

1912
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 2: what is this conversation? It's like a it doesn't mean

1913
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:34,840
Speaker 2: anything anymore. I don't know how you divvy up what

1914
02:04:34,960 --> 02:04:40,320
Speaker 2: is there today? But you know, generally, I had gotten

1915
02:04:40,360 --> 02:04:43,920
Speaker 2: to a point after Mellencamp where those were all co

1916
02:04:44,000 --> 02:04:50,320
Speaker 2: productions and they were split or less. And that was

1917
02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 2: just because that's where he was at. It's like, you

1918
02:04:53,480 --> 02:04:54,880
Speaker 2: want to work with me, this is what you get.

1919
02:04:55,160 --> 02:04:59,400
Speaker 2: There was no negotiating. Later on, as I had more

1920
02:04:59,400 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 2: success on on my own, I would get, you know,

1921
02:05:03,080 --> 02:05:06,400
Speaker 2: normal three point deals that might accelerate at a certain point,

1922
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:11,520
Speaker 2: or that kind of thing. And I got to say

1923
02:05:11,520 --> 02:05:14,880
Speaker 2: that most people, when when faced with this whole thing.

1924
02:05:15,000 --> 02:05:18,520
Speaker 2: They understand. Maybe they want their name underneath. They're happy

1925
02:05:18,520 --> 02:05:23,240
Speaker 2: with their name underneath, but it's not about them taking money.

1926
02:05:23,920 --> 02:05:27,680
Speaker 2: It's I don't know.

1927
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:30,840
Speaker 1: Let's go back to Mellencamp for a second. What kind

1928
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:36,600
Speaker 1: of relationship do you have with Mellencamp today? If any, none,

1929
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:38,360
Speaker 1: don't have any.

1930
02:05:40,440 --> 02:05:45,440
Speaker 2: I'm sad about that. You know, we we found our

1931
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:50,280
Speaker 2: ups and downs. Certainly grateful for you know, all that

1932
02:05:50,360 --> 02:05:52,600
Speaker 2: he's done for my career, and I'm sure he's grateful.

1933
02:05:52,960 --> 02:05:55,120
Speaker 2: I do believe he's grateful for all that I've added

1934
02:05:55,120 --> 02:05:58,000
Speaker 2: to his. So I don't feel like there's any any

1935
02:05:58,200 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 2: you know, anger between. We've had moments that there was,

1936
02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:08,280
Speaker 2: and we've resolved them. And I mixed a record for

1937
02:06:08,400 --> 02:06:15,240
Speaker 2: him in nineteen ninety well, boy, I don't remember. That

1938
02:06:15,320 --> 02:06:18,840
Speaker 2: was two thousand and one, and we had a good

1939
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:26,400
Speaker 2: time together. My wife has decorated homes for him. We

1940
02:06:26,760 --> 02:06:33,160
Speaker 2: were friends with his with all of his wives, So yeah,

1941
02:06:33,400 --> 02:06:37,280
Speaker 2: there was a lot of closeness. But over the last jeez,

1942
02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:40,120
Speaker 2: probably twenty years now, we haven't been in contact.

1943
02:06:41,640 --> 02:06:46,200
Speaker 1: Do you still own your royalties? Yeah? Would you ever

1944
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:49,720
Speaker 1: sell them? No, because.

1945
02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:54,720
Speaker 2: It's well, I just don't think it's a good business decision.

1946
02:06:56,960 --> 02:07:01,720
Speaker 2: I have children, not that you know, they have to

1947
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:09,120
Speaker 2: have money, but you know, I'm just so blessed over

1948
02:07:09,160 --> 02:07:13,560
Speaker 2: the years I've I've managed to between you know, Hoody

1949
02:07:13,640 --> 02:07:18,720
Speaker 2: and Tracy and Mellencamp and Ram all the they're all

1950
02:07:19,720 --> 02:07:24,640
Speaker 2: they're all acts that have fan bases today. They're they're

1951
02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:29,000
Speaker 2: all acts that that if they play locally again, people

1952
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 2: will come see them. They're on people's playlists. They play

1953
02:07:32,680 --> 02:07:35,640
Speaker 2: those songs every day, and I make money off of

1954
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:40,520
Speaker 2: it every three months, and it's it's amazing, you know.

1955
02:07:41,080 --> 02:07:43,720
Speaker 2: But I looked at it and I hear how people

1956
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:46,280
Speaker 2: are so upset with the Spotify and how tiny the

1957
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:50,160
Speaker 2: royalties are. But nobody thinks about the fact that building

1958
02:07:50,160 --> 02:07:52,840
Speaker 2: a fan base of people that are on a playlist

1959
02:07:53,160 --> 02:07:56,440
Speaker 2: takes a long long time. It's twenty thirty forty years

1960
02:07:56,720 --> 02:08:01,240
Speaker 2: of accumulated work and people that are bands that are

1961
02:08:01,280 --> 02:08:08,240
Speaker 2: alive still doing it. And so we get a good

1962
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:15,720
Speaker 2: check that is something that's worth something to uh a

1963
02:08:16,160 --> 02:08:20,360
Speaker 2: uh you know investment people. You know, obviously they would

1964
02:08:20,400 --> 02:08:24,200
Speaker 2: give me whatever they're multiple is for it, but but

1965
02:08:24,440 --> 02:08:26,440
Speaker 2: you know, look at paying taxes on it and then

1966
02:08:26,560 --> 02:08:30,320
Speaker 2: getting on lump, and and then me having to manage

1967
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:32,400
Speaker 2: that money to try and get something equal to what

1968
02:08:32,440 --> 02:08:37,360
Speaker 2: I None of this makes any sense whereas this will

1969
02:08:37,360 --> 02:08:40,640
Speaker 2: go on forever. It's it's you know, as long as

1970
02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:42,720
Speaker 2: as that fan base of people that are playing it.

1971
02:08:42,760 --> 02:08:45,880
Speaker 2: You know, maybe until those maybe when my generation or

1972
02:08:45,960 --> 02:08:48,560
Speaker 2: the previous generation dies, maybe it'll go down. But I

1973
02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:54,480
Speaker 2: think until the twenty years probably still. You know, no, no,

1974
02:08:55,480 --> 02:08:58,080
Speaker 2: And I understand completely why why some people do it.

1975
02:08:58,120 --> 02:09:02,360
Speaker 2: Maybe some people need a chunk of good for them.

1976
02:09:02,920 --> 02:09:05,240
Speaker 1: I don't believe in it either, But one more step.

1977
02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:09,160
Speaker 1: You know, record companies don't overpay. How hard is it

1978
02:09:09,200 --> 02:09:12,680
Speaker 1: collecting this money?

1979
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:18,200
Speaker 2: You know you worry me because I mean, we get

1980
02:09:18,280 --> 02:09:23,000
Speaker 2: checks every three months. I don't. I Well, my wife

1981
02:09:23,040 --> 02:09:25,720
Speaker 2: keeps on saying, we need to audit these guys. That's

1982
02:09:25,720 --> 02:09:28,280
Speaker 2: what she keeps on saying. You know, you know, we

1983
02:09:28,320 --> 02:09:30,840
Speaker 2: need to go hire somebody and have them dig around

1984
02:09:30,880 --> 02:09:35,400
Speaker 2: a little bit. It's probably right. I'm you know, I'm

1985
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:38,560
Speaker 2: just happy. I see them come in and it's like, wow, Okay,

1986
02:09:39,720 --> 02:09:40,800
Speaker 2: we've got to dinner tonight.

1987
02:09:42,760 --> 02:09:46,000
Speaker 1: Okay. Don I want to thank you for sharing your

1988
02:09:46,040 --> 02:09:48,760
Speaker 1: career and your stories with my audience. Obviously there's a

1989
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:51,240
Speaker 1: lot we couldn't touch in this time deeper, certainly with

1990
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,920
Speaker 1: Meloncamp and other records, but thanks for being so open

1991
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 1: and honest.

1992
02:09:57,200 --> 02:09:59,560
Speaker 2: The pleasure Bob up to see you again.

1993
02:09:59,640 --> 02:10:03,360
Speaker 1: So until next time, this is Bob Left sets

1994
02:10:25,000 --> 02:10:25,120
Speaker 2: Sh