1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:01:36,440 Kelsey Snelling: This episode contains mentions of sexual abuse against children. Listener discretion is advised. Please check the show notes for resources. Summer love–the subject of countless songs, movies, and poems. It’s an experience many young people spend all year dreaming about. For Shaners especially, summertime was a chance for an epic romance. In picturesque woods with no parents around and self-confidence growing by the day, young love–of course–blossomed. As counselors, we were actually told by head staff that the dating scene at Shane could get a lil crazy. When I first heard this, I thought it was kinda cute. Campers had the chance to experience relationships like so many of their thinner peers did at school. But what I didn’t fully realize was how high the stakes were. .. Some of these kids felt like their limited weeks at camp were their only chance to experience love. And that scarcity mindset encouraged some not-so-ideal encounters, leaving campers in a place of precarity and even danger. This is Camp Shame. I'm Kelsey Snelling. Today, we’re delving into some of the more serious allegations levied against Camp When Selma Ettenberg founded Camp Shane, she knew romance could play a huge role in its allure – it is why she wanted to make a co-ed camp in the first place! 2 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,000 Nelson: You know, you'd have like your first boyfriend or girlfriend 3 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:40,360 Nelson: at camp. 4 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,319 Arielle: I had my very first kiss. But during a movie night. 5 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:44,560 Arielle: I'd be walking. 6 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,160 Seth: I'd be walking by and all of a sudden, I'd 7 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,160 Seth: hear Hi Seth from Thirty Girls. 8 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,120 Kelsey Snelling: Remember Seth Kwitko, the shaner from the eighties who was 9 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,480 Kelsey Snelling: trying to impress a girl at a skating rink and 10 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,480 Kelsey Snelling: got fat shamed by a full ass, grown adult. Well, 11 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Kelsey Snelling: at camp, Seth found himself surrounded by kids with a 12 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:10,320 Kelsey Snelling: history of similar experiences. Away from the haters and more importantly, 13 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,840 Kelsey Snelling: away from the watchful eye of parents. He and his 14 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,680 Kelsey Snelling: fellow campers were excited to finally get their flirt on. 15 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,400 Seth: You add a lot of kids that were filled with 16 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:26,600 Seth: hormones and probably didn't have a chance outside of camp, 17 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:32,120 Seth: and you let them loose amongst kids who they're filled 18 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,080 Seth: with hormones and they're going to go at it. And 19 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,799 Seth: there was a lot of that going on. 20 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,720 Kelsey Snelling: Campers often looked forward to hook up opportunities like free play, 21 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,400 Kelsey Snelling: a daily camp wide hour of unstructured, co ed mingling. 22 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,959 Arielle: And that's where all the action happened. That's where people 23 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,120 Arielle: met people. That's where we were allowed to hang out. 24 00:02:52,600 --> 00:03:01,519 Kelsey Snelling: That’s Arielle Berger, a camper from the 1990s. Free Play was the only period of the day that campers got to use their time however they pleased. 25 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,040 Arielle: This is where I first got the bianca and gum, 26 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,880 Arielle: and you would trade it and you know, you'd try 27 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,880 Arielle: and find an area and make out. 28 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,960 Kelsey Snelling: Prime makeout spots might be a bush, behind a building 29 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,519 Kelsey Snelling: or on an empty bench, like the ones on Lover's Lane. 30 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,800 Kelsey Snelling: The campgrounds were vast, and you already know Shaner's were crafty. 31 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,880 Kelsey Snelling: The staff did set up a few rules. Occasional handholding, 32 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,480 Kelsey Snelling: hugs and pecks on the cheek were permitted. Anything beyond 33 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,520 Kelsey Snelling: that was not. But to enforce those rules, counselors had 34 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,440 Kelsey Snelling: to first find the misbehaving campers, and to do this 35 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:42,960 Kelsey Snelling: they went on patrol. 36 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,120 Merryl: So we had this nookie patrol. 37 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,520 Kelsey Snelling: That's Merryl Winter, a staff member from two thousand and 38 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:51,920 Kelsey Snelling: three to twenty fourteen. 39 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,480 Merryl: First, the counselors they loved being on this patrol. I 40 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,920 Merryl: mean they just loved it. They would get creative. They'd 41 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,600 Merryl: bring flashlights and all alarms and you know, and as 42 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,960 Merryl: soon as they would catch kids, they'd say hand check, 43 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,080 Merryl: you know, like find your hands and you know. And 44 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,920 Merryl: a few of them caught kids in very hairy situations, 45 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,080 Merryl: and I wanted to make sure the kids were safe. 46 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:17,480 Kelsey Snelling: And then there were the movie nights. Movie nights, which 47 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Kelsey Snelling: were held on the hills of Shane beneath the Catskills 48 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,839 Kelsey Snelling: Stars were the perfect place for romance. Now, while some 49 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,320 Kelsey Snelling: kids watched the Mighty Ducks or Heavyweights for the hundredth time, 50 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:36,360 Kelsey Snelling: others made their move. First Kisses, hand holding, innocent cuddling 51 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,360 Kelsey Snelling: all happened on these hills, but often it went further. 52 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,279 Kelsey Snelling: Here's Stacy Toth. She was a camper for two summers 53 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,240 Kelsey Snelling: in the nineties and. 54 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,000 Stacy: I remember specifically there were movie nights where it was 55 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,960 Stacy: like on a hill and it would happen at like twilight, 56 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,240 Stacy: which meant that as the movie was going, it would 57 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Stacy: get dark and kids would have sexual experiences on that 58 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:11,680 Stacy: hill that were not monitored and not restricted the way 59 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,720 Stacy: that they were supposed to be for camp rules or whatever, 60 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,400 Stacy: right like let's not have sex acts in public, but 61 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:26,720 Stacy: everybody was and if you were with someone, then it 62 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,200 Stacy: was expected that you do things when you have a 63 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:31,720 Stacy: movie night. 64 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:51,760 Kelsey Snelling: For every staff member who tried to protect campers – there was a counselor who ignored the hookups. According to our sources, there were instances where staff members flat out encouraged them. Seth remembers a time he got away with sneaking around with his girlfriend because his counselor was sneaking around, too. 65 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:58,320 Seth: I actually remember going to my camp girlfriend's cabin in 66 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,599 Seth: the middle of the night, and I remember coming back 67 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,600 Seth: and as I was walking back into my cabin, there 68 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,280 Seth: was a female accounselor walking out the back door of 69 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:12,920 Seth: our cabin. 70 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,520 Kelsey Snelling: Sneaking around is what Shaner's did best, be it for food, 71 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,359 Kelsey Snelling: general mischief, or a romantic encounter. As a counselor, I 72 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,400 Kelsey Snelling: did my best to keep an eye on my kids, 73 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,960 Kelsey Snelling: but I wasn't always prepared for their eagerness. And eagerness 74 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,359 Kelsey Snelling: is exactly what happens when you put a bunch of 75 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,400 Kelsey Snelling: kids together who have been told by the outside world 76 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:37,919 Kelsey Snelling: that they're undesirable. 77 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,560 Dr. Millner: These teens had been taught that they weren't going to 78 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,680 Dr. Millner: be viewed as attractive if they're in larger bodies, or 79 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,560 Dr. Millner: that people are not going to want to date them, 80 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,800 Dr. Millner: and many of these teens probably did sadly experience that. 81 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,839 Kelsey Snelling: This is doctor Rachel Millner, a licensed psychologist and fat activist. 82 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,520 Dr. Millner: Many higher weight teens have had the experience of not being 83 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,279 Dr. Millner: invited to prom or not being asked out on a date, 84 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,440 Dr. Millner: or being told that they're not attractive, and so when 85 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,480 Dr. Millner: they were in an environment where that was removed from 86 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,000 Dr. Millner: the equation and they were seen as attractive and people 87 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,680 Dr. Millner: wanted took interest in them, I think that probably led 88 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:27,280 Dr. Millner: to a lot of the consensual interactions between the teens 89 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Dr. Millner: that can. 90 00:07:29,800 --> 00:08:35,880 Kelsey Snelling: The mindset Dr. Millner talks about also led some campers toward experiences they maybe weren’t ready for, which were sometimes not fully consensual. I spoke with many former campers who felt pressured to cross lines they weren’t ready to cross. In my interviewing, I heard stories of campers who entered relationships through coercion. Some were influenced by social hierarchy, some by low self-esteem and the desperation that accompanies it. Some experiences were even wrapped up in Camp Shane currency – where contraband foods were traded for sex acts. I didn’t see any of these exchanges when I was a counselor, but I was told multiple stories during my reporting, including one of a camper being offered chocolate if she allowed a boy to grope her breast. These coercive relationships didn’t just happen between campers. There were also camper-counselor relationships at Shane, which happened so often that they were given a nickname: 91 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,160 Merryl: We used to call them CCRs camper counselor relationships. 92 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,679 Kelsey Snelling: Former staffer Merrill Winter. 93 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,320 Merryl: Again, those were hard to control too, because the campers 94 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,040 Merryl: would especially be the older ones. We had a young 95 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,200 Merryl: adult program, some of the counselors with the same age 96 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:50,920 Merryl: as campers. 97 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,040 Kelsey Snelling: These CCRs could refer to a relationship between two legally 98 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,520 Kelsey Snelling: consenting adults, a twenty year old counselor and an eighteen 99 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:05,200 Kelsey Snelling: year old hamper for example, or sometimes not like a 100 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,640 Kelsey Snelling: sixteen year old camper and an older counselor. Either way, 101 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,920 Kelsey Snelling: they were inappropriate and represented a big power imbalance. To reiterate, 102 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,839 Kelsey Snelling: CCRs were not allowed, and the headstaff did their best 103 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:24,160 Kelsey Snelling: to stop them, but they were often really difficult to police. 104 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,280 Merryl: You know, you tell a nineteen year old they can't 105 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,199 Merryl: date someone, they think is pretty or handsome or whatever, 106 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,000 Merryl: but we did, and we'd have to let people go. Also, 107 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,199 Merryl: we'd have to let people go if that happened, and 108 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,600 Merryl: we would tell them constantly, please do not do this, 109 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,520 Merryl: be responsible, but it would happen. 110 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,959 Kelsey Snelling: Many campers told me stories about their relationships at Shane. 111 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:51,079 Kelsey Snelling: Some were lovely and uplifting and fully consensual. Others felt 112 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,880 Kelsey Snelling: a bit gray, and then there were stories that no 113 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:09,600 Kelsey Snelling: one should ever have to live through. Former camper Seth 114 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,680 Kelsey Snelling: quit Coo and I got to know each other a 115 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,520 Kelsey Snelling: lot during the making of this project. I first heard 116 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,640 Kelsey Snelling: about his story from another former camper and got in 117 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,199 Kelsey Snelling: touch with Seth in November of twenty twenty. I've interviewed 118 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,160 Kelsey Snelling: him formally on three separate occasions, I've met his whole family, 119 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,240 Kelsey Snelling: and we've spoken on the phone many times since then. 120 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,640 Kelsey Snelling: Seth is one of the sweetest and most charismatic people 121 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:39,000 Kelsey Snelling: I've met, and what happened to him at camp is devastating. 122 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,880 Kelsey Snelling: When Seth first arrived at Camp Shane in nineteen eighty three, 123 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,080 Kelsey Snelling: he was almost eleven years old. He was excited to 124 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,600 Kelsey Snelling: be there and to meet his bunkmates. That's also when 125 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,720 Kelsey Snelling: he met his counselor. Peter. Here's Seth. 126 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,760 Seth: It was his first summer and my first summer, and 127 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,640 Seth: he was actually one of the counselors in my cabin. 128 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,600 Seth: Everyone liked him. He was generally a nice counselor, got 129 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,800 Seth: involved with the kids. He was overweight himself, so he 130 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,520 Seth: you know, he had that sort of connection to all 131 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:16,120 Seth: of us. 132 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,240 Kelsey Snelling: Seth was happy to have a counselor who understood his 133 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,920 Kelsey Snelling: weight struggles and accepted him for who he was. And 134 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,240 Kelsey Snelling: since Peter was nineteen at the time, Seth felt he 135 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,839 Kelsey Snelling: was less like an adult and more of a cool 136 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:29,520 Kelsey Snelling: older brother. 137 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,720 Seth: He made me forget about being away from home. He 138 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,120 Seth: made me enjoy the camp more. He made me feel 139 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,120 Seth: less homesick. He made me feel comfortable. He did what 140 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,240 Seth: I thought a counselor should do. 141 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,560 Kelsey Snelling: Peter listened, He was friendly, and he even brought Seth snacks, 142 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,680 Kelsey Snelling: which technically is not exactly what a weight loss camp 143 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,720 Kelsey Snelling: counselor should do, but from a camper's perspective, best counselor ever. 144 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,719 Seth: He would ply me with food, as we know, and 145 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,800 Seth: camp food is currency. Food is a bargaining chip, so 146 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,280 Seth: he would bring me. He would sneak in things and 147 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:18,200 Seth: he would give them to me. 148 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,920 Kelsey Snelling: The following year, in nineteen eighty four, Peter became the 149 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,920 Kelsey Snelling: camp's drama director. This meant that he started spending his 150 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,520 Kelsey Snelling: days in the stadium, away from the day to day activities. 151 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,560 Kelsey Snelling: The stadium soon became a commonplace for him and Seth 152 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,240 Kelsey Snelling: to hang out. 153 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,480 Seth: It was in the stadium where they held the place. 154 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,880 Seth: It was a covered area, big covered area. They would 155 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Seth: have benches, and they had a stage at one end. 156 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,280 Seth: On ones on either side were offices, and the main 157 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,440 Seth: office was if you were looking at the stage to 158 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,320 Seth: the left, and they had a dad skin. They had 159 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,480 Seth: costumes and everything, and there was a way to crawl 160 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,480 Seth: underneath the stage from one side to the other, so 161 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,480 Seth: that you could you go off here and appear over there. 162 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,439 Seth: And I would spend time in there, and he would 163 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,280 Seth: sneak me a you know, some cookies or whatever it 164 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:20,760 Seth: may be. 165 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,920 Kelsey Snelling: On top of sneaking Seth food, Peter used his power 166 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,120 Kelsey Snelling: as drama director to score Seth some additional perks. 167 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,760 Seth: I always hated swimming, so any opportunity I could get 168 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,240 Seth: to get out of swimming was a good opportunity. So 169 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,840 Seth: when he let me get out of activities because I 170 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,160 Seth: had to rehearse or whatever. I was fine with it. 171 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,240 Kelsey Snelling: Seth says that Peter also made him the star of 172 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,240 Kelsey Snelling: the shows, boosting his confidence and making him feel even 173 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,040 Kelsey Snelling: more important. One former counselor I interviewed said that Seth 174 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:04,920 Kelsey Snelling: was Peter's favorite. At first, the special treatment was great, 175 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,800 Kelsey Snelling: but then conversations with Peter started to get inappropriate. 176 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,679 Seth: That counselor is gay? Did you know that? And then 177 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,880 Seth: things would sort of evolve from there. So he would start, 178 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,600 Seth: you know, chipping away at those at those barriers, and 179 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:30,960 Seth: the conversations would become more and more sexual, and then 180 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:40,000 Seth: eventually it was, well, I think you would like it, Seth. 181 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,360 Seth: I think you would be into it. From the first 182 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,320 Seth: time I met you, I knew that you would be 183 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,320 Seth: into this. I knew, you know. I think it was 184 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,480 Seth: him admitting that he was bisexual or you know, he 185 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,920 Seth: had had sex with men or something along those lines, 186 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,400 Seth: and then it was I knew you were. I knew 187 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,440 Seth: others were, but I knew from the moment I saw 188 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,160 Seth: you that you would be into it. 189 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,920 Kelsey Snelling: Seth was shocked and uncomfortable, but by this point in 190 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,480 Kelsey Snelling: their friendship the two were really close. Seth says he 191 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,720 Kelsey Snelling: didn't realize it at the time, but Peter had isolated 192 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,480 Kelsey Snelling: him from the other campers and he didn't really have 193 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,360 Kelsey Snelling: another person he could talk to that he trusted. So 194 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,760 Kelsey Snelling: they continued to spend time together, and according to Seth, 195 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,680 Kelsey Snelling: Peter continued to push his boundaries. From there, things escalated quickly. 196 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,360 Kelsey Snelling: A warning to listeners, what Seth is about to say 197 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:42,520 Kelsey Snelling: may be hard to hear. 198 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,960 Seth: And he just kept chipping away and chipping away and 199 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,600 Seth: chipping away. And I really wish I could remember how 200 00:15:50,600 --> 00:16:01,160 Seth: it started. But eventually we we had mutual masturbation, and 201 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,320 Seth: it's sort of escalated from there. He would masturbate me, 202 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,960 Seth: and then he would want to kiss me, and then 203 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:16,000 Seth: he would do fillatio, and then it just kept going. 204 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,160 Seth: And it was it was more of the same of 205 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,360 Seth: him telling me that this is what I want and 206 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,880 Seth: this is he knew it, and don't tell anyone, and 207 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:39,000 Seth: it would just continue. And of course afterwards, after we 208 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,760 Seth: were finished, I would I would a wave of guilt 209 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,160 Seth: and emotion would come over me, and I would say 210 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,080 Seth: to myself, what am I doing? Because on one hand, 211 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,320 Seth: I was young, you know, I was I was a 212 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,760 Seth: hormonal team and it felt good and all this confusion 213 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,120 Seth: was in my head. You know, why should this feel good? 214 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,639 Seth: It shouldn't feel good, you know, And then you know, 215 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:12,680 Seth: guilt and anger and sadness and just a whole groundswell 216 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,639 Seth: of emotions would come over me as these things were happening. 217 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:24,320 Seth: And then and then, for some reason, fear, I don't know, 218 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,720 Seth: I would go back. I would go back, and he 219 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:27,760 Seth: would do the same thing. 220 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,440 Kelsey Snelling: The stress and confusion weighed on Seth. He felt ashamed 221 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,840 Kelsey Snelling: of what was happening, but was afraid to talk to 222 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,680 Kelsey Snelling: anyone about it. He wanted to forget it, and when 223 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,359 Kelsey Snelling: summer ended, he went home as if everything was fine. 224 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,399 Seth: I just was afraid to let my parents know something 225 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,359 Seth: was wrong. And it could have been very easy to 226 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:57,119 Seth: just say I don't want to go back, but it 227 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,160 Seth: was almost kind of like, you know, hey, no, nothing's wrong, 228 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,320 Seth: nothing's wrong. No, I want to go. I want to go. 229 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,959 Seth: I want to keep going every year. No, no problem, 230 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,280 Seth: no problem here. I mean, one of the big reasons 231 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,840 Seth: why I would go back was just to kind of 232 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,159 Seth: get a sense of feeling normal, you know, not not 233 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,920 Seth: sitting on the sidelines and being picked last, or even 234 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,119 Seth: if you're picked last, you still don't get to participate, 235 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,679 Seth: so you know, there there was a sense of some normalcy, 236 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,399 Seth: you know, feeling what normal kids might feel. And then after, 237 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,359 Seth: you know, a lot of this stuff happened. I think 238 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,240 Seth: it was just a way to keep myself busy, to 239 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:44,520 Seth: kind of escape. 240 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,680 Kelsey Snelling: Determined to feel normal again, Seth put on a brave 241 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,439 Kelsey Snelling: face and returned to camp for another year. Unfortunately, so 242 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,920 Kelsey Snelling: did Peter. Seth was worried, but at first things didn't 243 00:18:58,960 --> 00:18:59,800 Kelsey Snelling: seem so bad. 244 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,199 Seth: Abuse is not linear. There were times where he and 245 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,520 Seth: I would just be pals. 246 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,960 Kelsey Snelling: But then the abuse would begin again. 247 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,560 Seth: And then there were times where you know he was 248 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,960 Seth: taking advantage of me, and then you know, I was angry. 249 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,480 Seth: I was angry at him, I was angry at myself, 250 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:28,560 Seth: and then you know, I didn't want to be there. 251 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:34,119 Seth: But then at the same time I was there, you know, 252 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,960 Seth: I was confused about sexuality. 253 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,879 Kelsey Snelling: Seth felt trapped in this cycle, and says Peter continued 254 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,200 Kelsey Snelling: to push things further. 255 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:55,479 Seth: I think the last straw was when I was in 256 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,720 Seth: the office on the side of the stage. I was 257 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,520 Seth: hungry because here we are in fat camp and I 258 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,720 Seth: was looking for some food. Maybe he had it tucked 259 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,200 Seth: away in a closet somewhere like he would do hide 260 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,080 Seth: food every now and then. He wasn't there at the time, 261 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,400 Seth: and there was a counselor in there, a female counselor, 262 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Seth: and I went into the closet and I grabbed this 263 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,240 Seth: paper bag and I opened up the bag and inside 264 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:36,119 Seth: were condoms and vasilin and I asked her what is 265 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:43,199 Seth: this for, and she rather almost gleefully, said this is 266 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,600 Seth: for you. And I wasn't sure at the time what 267 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,920 Seth: that meant, so I put it back and I left 268 00:20:52,920 --> 00:21:02,400 Kelsey Snelling: Seth knew he had to end it. The next time he went back to the stadium, he confronted Peter. 269 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:07,639 Seth: Then I came back one last time and he was 270 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:14,080 Seth: there and he was trying to kiss me. He was 271 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:22,000 Seth: trying to, you know, perform oral sex, and I just 272 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,200 Seth: sort of I had that wave of emotions coming over 273 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,679 Seth: me as he was doing things, and for whatever reason, 274 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,919 Seth: it just snapped in my head at that moment that 275 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,160 Seth: this is not right. And I said, no, that's it. 276 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,240 Seth: I'm out of here, and I pulled up my shorts 277 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,800 Seth: and I walked out. And after that it was, you know, 278 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,440 Seth: I started becoming a lot more withdrawn and I wouldn't 279 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,520 Seth: go near him. I had enough at that point, but 280 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,639 Seth: at the same time, I felt how I was damaged. 281 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,240 Kelsey Snelling: And so at this point, you're eleven. 282 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,360 Seth: I was. I think I was actually thirteen. 283 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,920 Kelsey Snelling: My heart shatters for Seth knowing that he felt damaged 284 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,959 Kelsey Snelling: in that moment. Fear, shame, and guilt are all common 285 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,080 Kelsey Snelling: feelings among survivors of abuse, and the shame was made 286 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,280 Kelsey Snelling: worse when Seth started to think that word of his 287 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,640 Kelsey Snelling: relationship had gotten out. 288 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,280 Seth: And I remember I was hanging out in a like 289 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,880 Seth: one of the it was like B ten or something B nine, 290 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,399 Seth: and we were just hanging out and some one of 291 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:43,879 Seth: these counselors was like, Seth, I heard you were gay, 292 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,920 Seth: like just out of the blue. 293 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,719 Kelsey Snelling: Seth was terrified of people finding out what Peter had 294 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,440 Kelsey Snelling: done to him. He just wanted things to go back 295 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,240 Kelsey Snelling: to normal, and wasn't that the whole point of going 296 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,399 Kelsey Snelling: to Camp Shane to feel like a regular kid, So 297 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,680 Kelsey Snelling: he didn't report it. In the few years that followed, 298 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,920 Kelsey Snelling: Seth's history with Peter haunted him. 299 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,800 Seth: I didn't know what to think of myself, and I 300 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:23,560 Seth: was afraid to let on anything. But you know, I 301 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,320 Seth: was also kind of self destructive. I was I was 302 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,080 Seth: going out and partying when I was in high school 303 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,200 Seth: and drinking a lot and doing drugs and doing horrible 304 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:42,280 Seth: in school, and you know, sort of that self medication anything, 305 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,280 Seth: I guess to get your mind away from what was 306 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,600 Seth: what had happened. 307 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,560 Kelsey Snelling: It wasn't until a few summers later Seth began to 308 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,439 Kelsey Snelling: process that what happened to him was not his fault. 309 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,439 Seth: It didn't mean I was gay, It didn't mean I 310 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,719 Seth: was straight. It didn't me and I was by It 311 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:08,640 Seth: meant that I succumbed to an abuser who took advantage 312 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,240 Seth: of my dislike of swimming, took advantage of my low 313 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,480 Seth: self esteem, took advantage of the situation where we were, 314 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:28,280 Seth: and just used it all those feelings against me to 315 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:36,040 Seth: gaslight me, to groom me, to get me where he wanted. 316 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,200 Kelsey Snelling: Seth was finally able to call it abuse, but still 317 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,760 Kelsey Snelling: could not forget it. In the late eighties, he returned 318 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,080 Kelsey Snelling: to Camp Shane yet again and was relieved when he 319 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:54,040 Kelsey Snelling: heard Peter would not be back. Seth had a camp 320 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,640 Kelsey Snelling: girlfriend that summer, and for the very first time he 321 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,680 Kelsey Snelling: told someone his story. Then, one day, while Seth was 322 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,040 Kelsey Snelling: in the nutrition room, his girlfriend saw Peter walk into 323 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,120 Kelsey Snelling: the stadium. Here's Seth's recollection of what happened. 324 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,119 Seth: I remember the girl I was with. She burst into 325 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:22,240 Seth: the nutrition room and she says he's here, and I 326 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,800 Seth: ran out with her, and I saw that he was 327 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:33,160 Seth: there in the stadium. And then I remember the owner 328 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,560 Seth: or maybe it was David, and a couple of the 329 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,280 Seth: head counselors, and we were telling them what was going 330 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,160 Seth: on and that he had done this. 331 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,280 Kelsey Snelling: Another counselor told us she spoke to Peter after this 332 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,600 Kelsey Snelling: incident and that he had told her that David sent 333 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,919 Kelsey Snelling: him home quietly and did not notify the police. This 334 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,919 Kelsey Snelling: despite a New York state law mandating that all child 335 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,719 Kelsey Snelling: abuse must be reported. Seth was not the only person 336 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,000 Kelsey Snelling: Peter was accused of abusing. In twenty twenty one, another 337 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,919 Kelsey Snelling: former camper filed a lawsuit against camp Shane, alleging that 338 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,240 Kelsey Snelling: Peter sexually abused him during an excursion to a swimming 339 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,280 Kelsey Snelling: hole in nineteen eighty four. The camper claimed that Camp 340 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,560 Kelsey Snelling: Shane was negligent in hiring Peter and giving him access 341 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,280 Kelsey Snelling: to children. Camp Shane denied these claims. The case was 342 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,919 Kelsey Snelling: later discontinued after an apparent settlement Sadly, this was not 343 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,320 Kelsey Snelling: the beginning or the end of sexual abuse at Camp Shane, 344 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,960 Kelsey Snelling: and it would not be the last time allegations were mishandled. 345 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,680 Kelsey Snelling: While talking to former shaners, I learned that allegations of 346 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,400 Kelsey Snelling: abuse were not isolated to only the Ferndale campus. These 347 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,920 Kelsey Snelling: abuses also happened in the satellite locations. In twenty seventeen, 348 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,320 Kelsey Snelling: a fifteen year old autistic boy was sent to Camp 349 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,000 Kelsey Snelling: Shane's Georgia campus. According to a twenty twenty lawsuit against 350 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,320 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane, the family was told by the camp's director 351 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,439 Kelsey Snelling: that their child would have supervision in his living area. 352 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,480 Kelsey Snelling: They alleged that the camp did not have enough counselors 353 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,760 Kelsey Snelling: to uphold that promise, and that the Georgia camp director 354 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,199 Kelsey Snelling: notified David Ettenburg that the campus was understaffed. According to 355 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,920 Kelsey Snelling: the lawsuit, no action was taken to fix the staffing problem, 356 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,119 Kelsey Snelling: and the child was left unsupervised in a dorm with 357 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,320 Kelsey Snelling: a camper with known aggressive behavior. The family further alleged 358 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,920 Kelsey Snelling: that their son was raped by his roommate multiple times. 359 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,920 Kelsey Snelling: According to the suit, the boy was only able to 360 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,480 Kelsey Snelling: verbalize what had happened to him months later when asked 361 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,280 Kelsey Snelling: if he wanted to return to Shane for another summer. 362 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,359 Kelsey Snelling: The family sued Camp Shane for damages. The camp was 363 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,439 Kelsey Snelling: settled out of court. According to the family's complaint, the 364 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,280 Kelsey Snelling: offending camper pled guilty to one felony count of second 365 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,879 Kelsey Snelling: degree cruelty to children before the settlement. A question abuse 366 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:19,440 Kelsey Snelling: survivor is often here is why didn't you come forward? Commonly, 367 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,800 Kelsey Snelling: there is fear of retaliation. There's also the stigma and 368 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,720 Kelsey Snelling: shame associated with abuse. It can be very difficult for 369 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,560 Kelsey Snelling: victims to tell someone about their abuse, and even harder 370 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,679 Kelsey Snelling: when they don't think they will be believed. And for 371 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,360 Kelsey Snelling: Shaner's there's an added layer here. 372 00:28:39,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Dr. Millner: If you look at the way that fatness is represented in our culture as early as, Disney movies, the fat person is usually the villain or the fat person is lonely. And the representation around fatness that kids see starts so young. 373 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,920 Kelsey Snelling: That's doctor Rachel Millner again. 374 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,200 Dr. Millner: Fat kids are taught that they're not desirable, not and 375 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,040 Dr. Millner: I'm not talking about for any kind of dating relationship. 376 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,120 Dr. Millner: I'm talking about friendships right, or to be included in 377 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,400 Dr. Millner: activities like they're told they're going to be isolated or 378 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,400 Dr. Millner: be left out, and so of course then that impacts 379 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,000 Dr. Millner: self confidence and self esteem, and then kids can feel 380 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,560 Dr. Millner: like if somebody does show them attention or interest, they're 381 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,520 Dr. Millner: supposed to just be grateful for it, and because they've 382 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,440 Dr. Millner: already feel like they don't deserve it. 383 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,520 Kelsey Snelling: This is why the sexual culture at Shane was so 384 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,720 Kelsey Snelling: different from other summer camps. That feeling that bigger bodied 385 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,600 Kelsey Snelling: people need to be grateful for attention makes them more 386 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,000 Kelsey Snelling: susceptible to this type of abuse. On top of that, 387 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,160 Kelsey Snelling: there is a real worry that others may not believe 388 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,320 Kelsey Snelling: them when they report sexual misconduct or assault. 389 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,240 Dr. Millner: I've also worked with a lot of adults who were 390 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,680 Dr. Millner: higher weight kids and adolescents who did experience sexual trauma, 391 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,000 Dr. Millner: and they talk about the fear that if they did 392 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,800 Dr. Millner: speak up, they wouldn't be believed, and I can you know, 393 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Dr. Millner: it breaks my heart when they talk about that. And 394 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,600 Dr. Millner: if you look at so many stories through the Me 395 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:38,640 Dr. Millner: Too movement, and anytime somebody who is in a higher 396 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,479 Dr. Millner: weight body talks about being sexually abused, there is something 397 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,959 Dr. Millner: in the media about, well, why would somebody want to 398 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:52,280 Dr. Millner: abuse them? Or that can't be true, and it's horrifying 399 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,200 Dr. Millner: that that's what happens, but it is what happens. 400 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:06,680 Kelsey Snelling: Abusers may even weaponize these concepts to further manipulate their victims. Here’s former camper Stacy Toth again 401 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,680 Stacy: When you feel valued, you're able to then stand up 402 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,360 Stacy: for yourself when abuse is coming your way, when manipulation 403 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,239 Stacy: is coming your way. When these things are happening, you 404 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,320 Stacy: feel like someone will listen to you, because for me, 405 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,960 Stacy: what happened is my self worth just thanks so much 406 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,260 Stacy: that then when I left Camp Shane and my teenage 407 00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:32,880 Stacy: years in high school, I was raped and the person said, 408 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,320 Stacy: go ahead, and who are you going to tell? Who's 409 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,000 Stacy: going to believe you? No one would believe that I 410 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Stacy: was interested in you, and I believed that, and I 411 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,880 Stacy: did nothing for years. 412 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,040 Kelsey Snelling: Stacy carried feelings which were reinforced at Camp Shane, that 413 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,120 Kelsey Snelling: her body only had value when she was thin, and 414 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,280 Kelsey Snelling: this same idea was used against her when she was 415 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,360 Kelsey Snelling: sexually assaulted. 416 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:03,280 Stacy: I wholeheartedly believe that that happened because of the roots 417 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,840 Stacy: that took place at Camp Shane and the belief that 418 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,200 Stacy: my value my self worth was so low. 419 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,760 Kelsey Snelling: Tragically, fat women are significantly less likely to be believed 420 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,720 Kelsey Snelling: about sexual abuse than thin women. This has been reflected 421 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,880 Kelsey Snelling: in multiple studies. Stacy felt she should have been grateful 422 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,520 Kelsey Snelling: to be with anyone because of her larger body. It 423 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,480 Kelsey Snelling: took Stacy years to heal from her abuse. The healing 424 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:38,040 Kelsey Snelling: journey for Seth was also hard. In the years following camp, 425 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,959 Kelsey Snelling: Seth dove into a deep depression. 426 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,360 Seth: I wanted to tell both my parents, but I was 427 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,640 Seth: I was scared, and I was scared to tell my 428 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,560 Seth: mother because I wasn't sure how she was going to react. 429 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Seth: And of course there were so many times where I 430 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,160 Seth: wanted to just blurt it out, but I was I 431 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,400 Seth: didn't know what would come of it. Are they gonna 432 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:08,080 Seth: say I don't believe you. Are they gonna say why 433 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,400 Seth: didn't you tell me sooner? Are they gonna say, I'm 434 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,040 Seth: going to kill the guy? How could you go back 435 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,680 Seth: to that camp after this happened. I didn't know what 436 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,040 Seth: to expect. Depression was a big part of that lack 437 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,440 Seth: of trust, you know, self harm in the sense, not 438 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,000 Seth: that I was like cutting myself, but you know, I 439 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,560 Seth: just didn't care about my appearance. I didn't do well 440 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,880 Seth: in school. I tried to make friends with the people, 441 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,480 Seth: and I just didn't you know, I still kept to 442 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,840 Seth: myself regardless, you know, made friends, found excuses why I 443 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,280 Seth: couldn't hang out, or I had this apartment. I was 444 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,560 Seth: on my own. I was an absolute I mean the 445 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,600 Seth: apartment was a wreck because I just didn't care, you know, 446 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,080 Seth: and I did nothing to help myself or you know, 447 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,239 Seth: I would fail before I started to avoid the pain 448 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,040 Seth: of failure that kind of thing. Had a couple of 449 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:20,319 Seth: relationships here and there, but nothing really meaningful. So I 450 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,800 Seth: just sort of I did just enough, I guess to 451 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,880 Seth: live another day for a long time, you know. And 452 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:39,360 Seth: then then met my wife, and that's sort of when 453 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,560 Seth: things changed. 454 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,319 Kelsey Snelling: Well into his adult years, Seth opened up to his 455 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,719 Kelsey Snelling: then girlfriend about what happened at camp. 456 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,080 Seth: And then one day she's like, you know, I'll tell 457 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,480 Seth: you my deepest, darkest secret. So she told me the 458 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,120 Seth: whole deal. And then I was like, when I was twelve, 459 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,840 Seth: I was sexually abused, and she's like, wow, you know, 460 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,160 Seth: like she wasn't thinking that I was like my deepest, 461 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:16,200 Seth: darkest secret. You know, she understood this is me telling 462 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,080 Seth: her because I needed healing. 463 00:35:19,360 --> 00:36:14,840 Kelsey Snelling: Then in 2019, something caught Seth’s attention. His wife told him that New York State had just passed the Child Victims Act (or CVA). Prior to the act, any victim of childhood sexual abuse could sue for damages only until they were 23 years old. The CVA extended the statute of limitations to the age of 55. It also granted a one year window to file a civil action of damages with no age limit. With the passage of this law, Seth knew it was time to publicly tell his story and bring Camp Shane to account. In 2020, Seth filed a lawsuit against the camp for damages. And he knew that this undertaking would require him to finally tell his mother. Thirty-five years after that summer. 464 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,279 Seth: You know, I said, Mom, I got something to tell you. 465 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,400 Seth: And then I remember we were standing out in front 466 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,120 Seth: of our house and we were walking around, and I 467 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,440 Seth: was like, listen, do you remember when I was at camp? 468 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,960 Seth: And then I proceeded to tell her everything that happened. 469 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,239 Carla: I was seventy five when I found out. 470 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,000 Kelsey Snelling: This is Carla Kwitko, Seth's mom 471 00:36:44,440 --> 00:37:17,600 Carla: And he said to me, I was molested. I said, what, what do you mean molested? Did somebody touch you? You know, and then he, you know, said, it was at Camp Shane. And it was like, what do you mean? I mean, it, it, it's like it hits you, but you, you're not ready for it. You don't, it's like, I can't even explain it. 472 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:50,560 Seth: Her first reaction was, believe it or not, of guilt. I should have protected you. I should have known. And I said, mom, I didn't say anything to you. You, you wouldn't have known. And, you know, she, she kind of took it hard, and she was really, really upset about it. Um, you know, that she felt like she failed me as a parent. And I was like, no, you didn't, you know, you didn't know. 473 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,960 Kelsey Snelling: Know, And that guilt quickly transformed into a profound sense 474 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,960 Kelsey Snelling: of loss. 475 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:04,000 Carla: Then I remember one day, I have this bowl on 476 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,600 Carla: my table and it has pictures of you know, the 477 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,640 Carla: family and vacation whatever. And I saw this picture of 478 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:19,160 Carla: Seth at Camshane. He must have been around eleven, and 479 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,640 Carla: I just when I saw that, I just I started 480 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,319 Carla: to cry. It hit me what he did to my 481 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:40,560 Carla: little kid, beautiful little child, what he did to him. 482 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:48,040 Kelsey Snelling: Four years later, Seth’s case was settled out of court. Now, he’s finally able to breathe a little lighter. 483 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,440 Seth: Telling my wife was huge doing the lawsuit was huge. 484 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,840 Seth: Those were all These are all things that have really 485 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,240 Seth: helped me along my way of course, going for therapy 486 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:10,759 Seth: and speaking about you know, the effects, the long term 487 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,760 Seth: effects of what happened, and that the more I speak, 488 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,520 Seth: the more cathartic it becomes, the more I open up 489 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:28,440 Seth: to people because there's no shame, there's no embarrassment. My 490 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,440 Seth: hope is that I'm not just healing myself, but I'm 491 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,960 Seth: going to get others to start healing as well, that 492 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,440 Seth: they know that what happened to them, what happened to me, 493 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,400 Seth: was not their fault, and that there's nothing to be 494 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,160 Seth: ashamed of, and there's you know, there's only moving forward 495 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,719 Seth: and all these things are going to be behind me 496 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,799 Seth: and there's no reason to look back anymore. They'll never 497 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,520 Seth: go away. But you know, like I said, with the 498 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,759 Seth: kind of like those stages of grief, you just you know, 499 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,480 Seth: you accept it, you understand that it happened, and you just 500 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:15,919 Seth: keep moving forward. 501 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:48,880 Kelsey Snelling: By the time Seth filed his suit in 2020, The Camp Shane campgrounds had already been sold off, David was drowning in lawsuits, and Shaners both mourned and celebrated what was surely the end of Camp Shane’s 50-year reign. But actually a brand new chapter was just beginning. All it took was a little change of scenery, and Camp Shane was back in the game–only this time, they were being watched. 502 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,520 Seth: They were campers leaving or counselors were leaving, kids were 503 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,040 Seth: getting sick, kids were getting hurt. They shut the camp down. 504 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,120 Kelsey Snelling: And what were you feeling when you saw this or 505 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:00,640 Kelsey Snelling: heard about this? 506 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:20,439 Seth: This can't be used against me in a court of law. A little schadenfreude, you know? Good. Right. I'm glad. But at the same time, I was, I, I, I said to myself, man, I wish that was me. I would've felt good if, if I was the one who caused that to happen. 507 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,200 Kelsey Snelling: Next time. On the final episode of Camp Shame. 508 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:35,600 Pamela: It was something out of a horror movie. The way it felt when I pulled up, There was not an adult anywhere to be seen. Pamela: Nothing about that camp was right. 509 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:43,160 Kelsey Snelling: We reached out to David Ettenberg, Ziporah Janowski, and Peter for comment. At the time of this recording, we have not received a reply. 510 00:41:46,400 --> 00:42:43,240 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shame is a production of iHeartPodcasts. I’m your host, Kelsey Snelling. Camp Shame is produced by Brittany Martinez, Taylor Williamson, Sara Schleede, Luci Jones and Alyia Yates Grau. Our Editor is Courtenay Hameister with additional Editorial support from Lindsey Kratochwill and Grace Lynch. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder and me, Kelsey Snelling. For iHeartMedia, our executive producer is Cristina Everett. Fact checking done by Madeline Goore, Luci Jones, Paloma Moreno Jimenez, Lauren Williams and Fiona Pestana. Our theme music is produced by Sean Petell. Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @CampShame – that's with an M!-- If you or anyone you know went to Camp Shane reach out with your camp stories