Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with me,
Speaker 1: Tommy di Dario. This episode is perhaps one of my
Speaker 1: favorite conversations that I've ever had on my show because
Speaker 1: it is so real and raw and she is so vulnerable.
Speaker 1: That she I'm referring to is the amazing and brilliant
Speaker 1: Bethany Joy Lenz, who is my guest today and you
Speaker 1: know when you love her From her starring role as
Speaker 1: Haley James Scott in the fan favorite series of One
Speaker 1: Tree Hill, her character is beloved, and Joy and her
Speaker 1: co star James Lafferty went on to play one of
Speaker 1: the most popular TV couples in pop culture history. But
Speaker 1: while Joy was in one of the most popular TV
Speaker 1: shows in the world, she was also getting more and
Speaker 1: more involved with a very dangerous cult. Her new memoir,
Speaker 1: Jennerfer Vampires is out right now and it chronicles her
Speaker 1: spending a decade in a cult and her quest to
Speaker 1: break free. Publicly, she was the girl that people adored
Speaker 1: from One Tree Hill, rising to the heights of international fame,
Speaker 1: but privately, she felt like she was falling deeper and
Speaker 1: deeper into a cult that she couldn't break free from,
Speaker 1: until one day she had enough. I thank Joy for
Speaker 1: being so open and honest with me in this conversation.
Speaker 1: And I truly believe she is going to help so
Speaker 1: many people by sharing her story. So let's see if
Speaker 1: we can get Joy to say something that she has
Speaker 1: never said before. Joy, how you doing today?
Speaker 2: Good?
Speaker 1: How are you? I am so fantastic. Thank you for
Speaker 1: joining the show. I'm so excited to have you, especially
Speaker 1: now that I know you were from New Jersey. I
Speaker 1: love a Jersey connection.
Speaker 2: I do too. Jersey people always seem to find each
Speaker 2: other somehow. I feel like it happens all the time.
Speaker 2: I'm in the grocery store and a parking lot and like, hmmm,
Speaker 2: you're Jersey, aren't you. I hear that accent.
Speaker 1: That's right, We're good people. We're good people. Won't welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. I am so excited to talk to
Speaker 1: you because we have quite a lot to dive into.
Speaker 1: I have your book right next to me. I devour this,
Speaker 1: like I wrote you on Instagram. I DMD you because
Speaker 1: I was so just captivated by your story and enthralled
Speaker 1: by your story. And I have to be like super
Speaker 1: honest for a minute with you and tell you that
Speaker 1: before hearing about your story. Myself, like many people, probably
Speaker 1: kind of had this misconception about people that get involved
Speaker 1: in cults, and you automatically think, well, how like, I
Speaker 1: could never allow that to happen to me, and they
Speaker 1: didn't see warning signs, And admittedly and embarrassingly, that's kind
Speaker 1: of what I would think when I would watch documentaries
Speaker 1: or read stories. And I'm somebody who's so open minded
Speaker 1: and compassionate, but that did kind of cross my mind.
Speaker 1: Then I read your memoir and the way you lay
Speaker 1: it out, it is a must read for anyone who
Speaker 1: is going through any sort of abusive relationship, whether that's
Speaker 1: psychological and emotional, physical, and for anyone who has to
Speaker 1: witness that from afar right. So, I think it's such
Speaker 1: an important part of your life that you open up about,
Speaker 1: and I'm just so thrilled that it's going to be
Speaker 1: out there. So, first, thank you. Let me check in
Speaker 1: on you, because you've been doing a lot of press.
Speaker 1: You're on the cover of People magazine, Your story and
Speaker 1: your business is out there. So how are you feeling
Speaker 1: with this all out?
Speaker 2: Thank you for everything you've said. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank you for asking that I'm taking
Speaker 2: it a day at a time. There are days when
Speaker 2: it feels overwhelming. I feel like I am prone to
Speaker 2: I'm someone who's just prone to think that there's somebody
Speaker 2: mad at me at all times, Like somewhere out there,
Speaker 2: someone's mad at me. I've heard someone's feelings. I forgot
Speaker 2: to call somebody back, I said the wrong thing. I
Speaker 2: always live with that anxiety, and it's a constant thing.
Speaker 2: So to put so much of myself out there and
Speaker 2: know that I really did my best to respect everyone
Speaker 2: involved and to share my truth because I think it'll
Speaker 2: really help people, there is a huge element that I'm
Speaker 2: living with of just like, oh god, I really hope
Speaker 2: that this is all okay, and I really hope I
Speaker 2: didn't hurt anybody, and I really hope that that it's
Speaker 2: received well. And So to give you a really long
Speaker 2: winded answer, Tommy, I'm doing okay. I'm taking it a
Speaker 2: day at a time, and I'm having a great day today,
Speaker 2: and I'm really happy to be here talking with you.
Speaker 1: Oh good, we love a great day. And I totally
Speaker 1: could understand how you're feeling. All of those things. You
Speaker 1: kind of sum up this entire chapter of your life
Speaker 1: through a brilliant line. I believe you said this to
Speaker 1: Katherine McPhee at a party and you said Bible study
Speaker 1: went sideways. I read that and was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I couldn't love this girl more.
Speaker 2: So, it's so funny that you pick that out.
Speaker 1: I love it, Yes, I did. I'm very quirky and
Speaker 1: weird and I love a good sense of here mercyll
Speaker 1: I loved that so much. So before we dive into everything,
Speaker 1: I guess, talk to me about the moment before you
Speaker 1: join that Bible study to being fully ingrained into that cult,
Speaker 1: like walking through real quick, how that all happened?
Speaker 2: Okay. The truncated version is I grew up in a
Speaker 2: very normal Western society, charismatic Christian community, non denominational culturally Christian.
Speaker 2: I was used to Bible studies on Wednesday nights or
Speaker 2: Sunday nights, or It was just a way of people
Speaker 2: in a faith community connecting, keeping their community close, deepening
Speaker 2: their relationships to each other and to God. It's pretty
Speaker 2: normal in pretty much every faith community that I know of,
Speaker 2: in and out of Christianity. Every religion that I know
Speaker 2: has some version of this, and so that seemed very
Speaker 2: normal to me when I moved to LA and I
Speaker 2: was feeling lonely because I had left New York City
Speaker 2: and I didn't really know anybody and was just trying
Speaker 2: to make friends. And I got invited to this home
Speaker 2: group Bible study that sounded like every other one that
Speaker 2: I'd ever been to, And to be fair, when it started,
Speaker 2: I think it was. I think it was all pretty normal,
Speaker 2: just young professionals with a lot in common creatively, with
Speaker 2: a lot in common in our faith, and we lived
Speaker 2: in the same area and just wanted to get together
Speaker 2: and get to know each other. And then it took
Speaker 2: about a year, well actually I was in it for
Speaker 2: about six months, six to eight months maybe before a
Speaker 2: pastor from another state was invited to come speak at
Speaker 2: the group, and then slowly began kind of infiltrating and
Speaker 2: becoming a just a regular at the group. He would
Speaker 2: fly in from out of state, and he didn't have
Speaker 2: a church at the time. He had been well you'll
Speaker 2: have to read the book to find out. I found
Speaker 2: out later why he didn't have a church anymore. But nevertheless,
Speaker 2: we saw him as an older, wiser man who was
Speaker 2: an ordained past stir and somebody who could really give
Speaker 2: us some wisdom that we as, recognizing that we were
Speaker 2: young and still inexperienced in many ways, maybe needed some guidance.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately we just chose the wrong person.
Speaker 1: That sets it up very well. And you mentioned being
Speaker 1: lonely when you got out to LA. I feel the
Speaker 1: loneliness every time I go to lam in New Yorker.
Speaker 1: I've lived here my whole life, and I feel that.
Speaker 1: I always say it's my husband when I come back, like,
Speaker 1: how was your trip good? But God, I always feel
Speaker 1: a little lonely here. Yeah, you felt that when you
Speaker 1: got out there. You also were starting to compare yourself
Speaker 1: to some other actors in the business and maybe weren't
Speaker 1: feeling as attractive as they were, as pretty as they were.
Speaker 1: And you even said that quote, I was an alley
Speaker 1: cat still cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my pause, which
Speaker 1: is hysterical but also kind of heartbreaking. It's like, no, no, girl,
Speaker 1: you have all the same value. But I understand how
Speaker 1: comparison syndrome works. I've been there too. So would you
Speaker 1: say loneliness was a driving force for you to I
Speaker 1: don't want to say have blinders on to what was
Speaker 1: going on with the Bible study turn cult, but to
Speaker 1: keep going with it all.
Speaker 2: For sure, I was so desperate to be seen. I'm
Speaker 2: so desperate for community. I'd been wanting that my whole life.
Speaker 2: I was an only child. My parents were wonderful people
Speaker 2: that had a lot of their own tumultuous issues going on,
Speaker 2: and I isolated myself. I got really used to my
Speaker 2: own company, which is a gift in some ways, but
Speaker 2: I also just it was hard for me to make
Speaker 2: friends because we moved around a lot, and then I
Speaker 2: was in the theater, and that you know, as a
Speaker 2: theater person, you make close friends for three months and
Speaker 2: then you move on to a new group of friends.
Speaker 2: So there was this longing for consistency that I just
Speaker 2: had a really hard time finding a cure for. And
Speaker 2: when I became a part of this group, when I
Speaker 2: started connecting with these people, it felt like it was
Speaker 2: going so much deeper than just the sort of surface
Speaker 2: relationships that you have when you know that you're going
Speaker 2: to be moving on. And I think we all have
Speaker 2: this need for some spot in our lives. There are
Speaker 2: holes that need to be filled based on our rearing,
Speaker 2: based on relationships that we've had when we were young.
Speaker 2: There's these sort of very Freudian basic needs that if
Speaker 2: they're not all met, we look to fill them, and
Speaker 2: we need them so badly to be filled that we're
Speaker 2: willing to make excuses for things that maybe are red
Speaker 2: flags because we just really really want to feel the
Speaker 2: thing that's going to make us feel better in the moment.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense or was that? No?
Speaker 1: That absolutely makes sense. I think it's easy to ignore
Speaker 1: red flags when you want to believe so badly that
Speaker 1: something is so true. What was one of those early
Speaker 1: red flags you think you maybe missed?
Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, now, I mean, gosh, in retrospect, I can
Speaker 2: I can certainly see that anyone, anyone who is just
Speaker 2: so immediately intimate like it just dives right in with you.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about somebody who's willing to have an
Speaker 2: emotional conversation, or somebody who's willing to dive in deep
Speaker 2: in terms of like philosophy, or just being willing to
Speaker 2: be a friend to a stranger and connect. I'm talking
Speaker 2: about somebody who's willing to dive deep into intimacy in
Speaker 2: friendship or romantic relationship on a consistent basis without having
Speaker 2: really built trust. Is a red flag you just it's
Speaker 2: that's codependence or narcissism, attempting to manipulate you. I just
Speaker 2: don't think there's any way around it.
Speaker 1: So I have I have.
Speaker 2: Big red flags at about people who are just like
Speaker 2: super they just want to go in and get really close,
Speaker 2: really fast. I'm like, sum's up, something's up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And that's that's good intuition. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: I've dealt with that myself, and you don't want to
Speaker 1: go through life cold. But it's good to have a
Speaker 1: little bit of a perceptive eye, you know. So I
Speaker 1: think I think nothing's wrong with that. And like you said,
Speaker 1: this group, their basis was manipulation and isolation, and you know,
Speaker 1: my God like wanting to isolate you from friends and
Speaker 1: families so that you're so co dependent on only them
Speaker 1: and that they are the only group of people in
Speaker 1: your life, which it's manipulation. One oh one. So do
Speaker 1: you remember one of the first times where you felt
Speaker 1: like that happened, where you really felt like you were
Speaker 1: starting to isolate away from the people in your former
Speaker 1: life to blend more with these people.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the thing is that I didn't not
Speaker 2: really notice it. Then I can tell you what it
Speaker 2: was now, but it's still hard to see back then.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I remember. There's a character in my book
Speaker 2: called Camille. She's a British actress that I was friends
Speaker 2: with in New York and she also moved out to
Speaker 2: LA and I invited her to come to the group
Speaker 2: and start hanging out. So she spent some time with
Speaker 2: us there, and she told us me and my dad
Speaker 2: actually later in conversation that she was to remember being
Speaker 2: at a meeting with us, one of the group meetings,
Speaker 2: where I was told that I really shouldn't talk to
Speaker 2: my dad anymore. And when she said that, it triggered
Speaker 2: this memory. I was like, oh, my gosh, I do remember.
Speaker 2: I don't remember being explicitly told that, but it's wild
Speaker 2: that that's what she heard and she could see it,
Speaker 2: and she, as you'll read in the book, she was
Speaker 2: able to extract herself before things got too bad. But
Speaker 2: what I heard in that moment was people looking out
Speaker 2: for me, protecting me, trying to help me see patterns
Speaker 2: of codepen in my family, and telling me you should
Speaker 2: be careful, you should have boundaries, and your dad's not
Speaker 2: a bad person. He just is not serving you. He's
Speaker 2: not helping you right now in your life, and you're
Speaker 2: not obligated to maintain a relationship with someone just because
Speaker 2: they're blood related to you. Like, what's so crazy about
Speaker 2: it is in a different context, if someone is genuinely abusive,
Speaker 2: if someone is harmful to you in some way, I
Speaker 2: don't believe that you're obligated to have a relationship with
Speaker 2: that person because of any reason. But because it was
Speaker 2: used in this context when there was no abuse, there
Speaker 2: was no problem. All he was doing was just saying,
Speaker 2: I disagree with this group. I disagree with what you
Speaker 2: say you believe. I don't think this is right. I
Speaker 2: think they're trying to harm you. Disagreement equaled, you are
Speaker 2: now other. You have to be kind of caricaturized into
Speaker 2: shrunk down into just a person who disagrees with the group.
Speaker 2: You're dehumanized. All of the things about you, your fact
Speaker 2: that you've raised this child, the fact that you have
Speaker 2: been her father, have loved her, have invested in her life,
Speaker 2: none of those things matter. Your character, the upstanding person
Speaker 2: that you are, None of those things matter because of
Speaker 2: this one critical thing, which is that you disagree, which
Speaker 2: is I think something we see a lot these days
Speaker 2: but that's another conversation, so you see how. But so
Speaker 2: Camille heard it and she was like, what is going on?
Speaker 2: They're telling you to stop talking to your parents, And
Speaker 2: I heard people loving on me and trying to protect
Speaker 2: me from someone in my life who maybe is harmful.
Speaker 1: And it ended up ultimately working. I mean, you were
Speaker 1: strange from your parents for quite a long time, and
Speaker 1: your dad was definitely the more vocal one. And there's
Speaker 1: such a badass mo and I don't feel like this
Speaker 1: ruins anything, so I'm going to share it at the
Speaker 1: end where eventually, when you come out of it, he
Speaker 1: had a folder of all of his findings and he
Speaker 1: was just waiting for that moment to be like I
Speaker 1: got to let's go, babe. And you know, but during
Speaker 1: the height of the cult for you, you didn't have
Speaker 1: that relationship with them, and that's what they wanted, right.
Speaker 1: They wanted to keep it all all in house, and
Speaker 1: literally in house in Idaho and their compound. And you
Speaker 1: ended up, yeah, marrying the leader's son, and it was
Speaker 1: all very you know, incestual. It was all like these people,
Speaker 1: you will not stray.
Speaker 2: It's like a group marriage almost, and that's what when
Speaker 2: the word covenant started coming up, you know, years later,
Speaker 2: probably five six years in was like this idea of
Speaker 2: it's not just a church, like, this is a covenant.
Speaker 2: This is a which is a word used in the Bible.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was used in other ways
Speaker 2: in society at that time. I'm sure it was. But
Speaker 2: the idea is this like unbreakable binding contract that this
Speaker 2: group of people has decided we're going to do life together.
Speaker 2: So you know, you're safe to be completely vulnerable, completely
Speaker 2: raw and real, show all the ugly sides of yourself
Speaker 2: because no one's going to leave. It's like a guarantee
Speaker 2: that no one will leave you, which in some utopian
Speaker 2: dream sounds nice but in reality it's hell.
Speaker 1: Now. Not everything that happened during that period was terrible.
Speaker 1: One being you got a major show that changed the
Speaker 1: course of your entire life as an actress. You know,
Speaker 1: a little show called One Tree Hill. I don't know
Speaker 1: if anyone's ever heard about it, but you booked that
Speaker 1: and I think people are surprised to know that for
Speaker 1: all nine seasons, ten years of your life that you
Speaker 1: were a part of that show. You were involved with
Speaker 1: this group, and yeah, started off not as intense as
Speaker 1: where you were in season two or three of the show.
Speaker 1: But it was a part of your life, So how
Speaker 1: are you able to do that show and kind of
Speaker 1: get away from the group at that phase where they
Speaker 1: didn't feel like, oh my god, we're losing control over
Speaker 1: her because she's going to be gone now for eight
Speaker 1: months of the year.
Speaker 2: Money money, money, They were making money off of me.
Speaker 2: Of course they were happy to have me go out
Speaker 2: and be a part of this. It's like, yeah, let's
Speaker 2: support Joy while she's out there. Let's make it work. However,
Speaker 2: we got to do it, they said. I didn't write
Speaker 2: about this in the book because we just there wasn't
Speaker 2: space for everything. But I had a minder sent to
Speaker 2: live with me while I was out there for several
Speaker 2: of the seasons from the group. And now that's not
Speaker 2: what she was called. It was just my friend or
Speaker 2: my assistant, or you know, she's There were various ways
Speaker 2: that the relationship changed. But she was living with me
Speaker 2: while I was married and my husband was living back
Speaker 2: at home in the in the Big House, or well,
Speaker 2: in the house that I had bought. But I think
Speaker 2: he'd probably spent most of his time at the Big
Speaker 2: House and she was living with me to kind of
Speaker 2: keep an eye on me and make sure that I
Speaker 2: was I don't know what, but she was certainly reporting
Speaker 2: back to them. So I think that they and when
Speaker 2: I say they, by the way, I mean the leadership
Speaker 2: in this group, because the majority of the people that
Speaker 2: were on the lower sort of the kids of the group,
Speaker 2: I would say, in our twenties, they've all got their
Speaker 2: own version of my story, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I say that they've got their own version of their story,
Speaker 2: but like of what happened to them the way that
Speaker 2: I do of what happened to me, And some of
Speaker 2: them were encouraged to stay at their jobs because they
Speaker 2: had a more high paying job and because they were
Speaker 2: quote unquote tithing to the group, that money was valuable
Speaker 2: to the leadership. So I think that's really how it happened.
Speaker 2: They just they kept me tied in because the money,
Speaker 2: but they wanted me to to day a part of
Speaker 2: one streil for that reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's an important clarification to make
Speaker 1: because some people might think, oh, how could that be,
Speaker 1: how could you be allowed to do that? But it
Speaker 1: really was a form of control because they were taking
Speaker 1: your money, which we're going to get to in a bit.
Speaker 1: And the big house that you just mentioned for everybody
Speaker 1: listening who hasn't read the book yet, that means the
Speaker 1: compound in Idaho that the yeah, you know leaders ran
Speaker 1: that everybody lived in.
Speaker 2: It's so weird when I hear that word compound, because
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think of compounds as these sort of
Speaker 2: uh I guess I think of a compound as a
Speaker 2: place that is has multiple homes all on the same
Speaker 2: like a you know, thirty acres and it's multiple homes
Speaker 2: and they've got a little an annex and all of
Speaker 2: the little things. This really just was a giant house,
Speaker 2: and other people in the group lived in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2: But it wasn't like an actual nobody bought land and
Speaker 2: had everyone move on to the land, and like we
Speaker 2: weren't farming, we weren't doing which some people do and
Speaker 2: those are legitimate. I mean, it's the same kind of
Speaker 2: it's the same kind of thing that I think could
Speaker 2: have happened to our group if it hadn't fallen apart
Speaker 2: after ten years. But those other groups just started in
Speaker 2: the same way. I don't mean to be rambling, sorry,
Speaker 2: but the big house. It was like, it was just
Speaker 2: this giant house. At the end of We'll Call to Sac,
Speaker 2: I wonder what the neighbors thought.
Speaker 1: So we're going for a night walk. What's going on
Speaker 1: in there?
Speaker 2: I never met any of the neighbors in that entire neighborhood,
Speaker 2: and the houses were not far away from each other.
Speaker 2: In those whole ten years. I never met a neighbor.
Speaker 1: Wow. Smart Anyway, well it tracks. I mean, honestly, it
Speaker 1: tracts because you weren't encouraged to go be social and
Speaker 1: you know, you wanted to stay within the group. So
Speaker 1: it makes sense. So okay, so you went off to
Speaker 1: do One Tree Hill. You were making money, which meant
Speaker 1: the cult was making money. But out of that came
Speaker 1: a brilliant character and a brilliant performance and a role
Speaker 1: that means so much to so many people. I mean,
Speaker 1: you will forever be part of one of the most
Speaker 1: iconic couples in all of television in the history of
Speaker 1: pop culture, which must feel pretty good. So when you think, wow,
Speaker 1: that relationship, what makes you smile?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I mean James, he's just such an
Speaker 2: upstanding human and he's so creative, he's I mean, he
Speaker 2: left Montreal and started his own show. Everybody's doing great
Speaker 2: and it's hilarious. And he's always really soulful and thoughtful
Speaker 2: and such an interesting person. And I'm just so grateful
Speaker 2: that I got the opportunity to work with him when
Speaker 2: he was just a baby. He was seventeen when he started.
Speaker 2: He was the youngest of all of us. And to
Speaker 2: just be around someone who came from a really strong
Speaker 2: family and a really loving environment, and he was so professional.
Speaker 2: I mean, I had probably been in the business a
Speaker 2: little longer than him, but he was he was more
Speaker 2: professional than Member. One time he walked out of his trailer.
Speaker 2: It's just like in season one, he walked out of
Speaker 2: his trailer holding his wardrobe on hangers and at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, and I was like, what are
Speaker 2: you what are you doing. He's like, I'm just taking
Speaker 2: my clothes back to wardrobe. And I'm thinking, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I just throw my clothes on the floor of my trailer.
Speaker 2: Nobody ever told me that that's not what I'm supposed
Speaker 2: to do. It's like the only child syndrome of just
Speaker 2: like throw your clothes on the floor and go to school,
Speaker 2: Like nobody ever told me not to do that, so
Speaker 2: I just never learned that's amazing, isn't that so crazy?
Speaker 2: And from then I just started hanging my clothes up
Speaker 2: and sometimes I would take them back depending on what
Speaker 2: the day was. But like I learned from this. He
Speaker 2: was a young kid at the time, and I learned
Speaker 2: so much from him, and we really had a great
Speaker 2: time together. So I think when I look back on
Speaker 2: Nathan and Haley, what makes me happy is thinking about
Speaker 2: the time that he and I actually got to spend together.
Speaker 2: He's a great person.
Speaker 1: Were you able to keep in touch over the years
Speaker 1: or with everything that happened it just made it difficult.
Speaker 2: Oh, we stayed in touch. I mean we live really
Speaker 2: different lives. We're in different places, and it's like every
Speaker 2: job that every actor has, you get really close while
Speaker 2: you're on set, and then once the job is over,
Speaker 2: you move on and you just get close to different people.
Speaker 2: It's kind of the nature, the necessary nature of the job,
Speaker 2: I think. But yes, and we see each other conventions
Speaker 2: all the time, and we've always we've always just had
Speaker 2: a great rapport.
Speaker 1: Like I said, those scenes iconic, epic, the kissing and
Speaker 1: the rain, I mean, all of it.
Speaker 2: I know it's so romantic.
Speaker 1: All of it.
Speaker 2: The thing is that it's like, you don't know how
Speaker 2: funny it is because we're it's actually a hose with
Speaker 2: holes in it, like strapped to a sea stand in
Speaker 2: the air, and it's freezing cold water and it's pelting
Speaker 2: down and we're trying to keep our eyes open, you know.
Speaker 2: But all of those things. To go through that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff with another person is always just bonding and fun.
Speaker 1: You also write about one of your biggest regrets from
Speaker 1: your time on One Tree Hill, and you talked about
Speaker 1: this in the memoir. It's with Sophia Bush, and you
Speaker 1: said you were going through your own insecurities at the time.
Speaker 1: She was probably going through some things of her own
Speaker 1: at the time, but that you really wish quote I
Speaker 1: could go back and time to her trailer and give
Speaker 1: her a really big hug. Yeah, talk to me about that.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know what else sort is to say.
Speaker 2: I mean, I I agonized over how exactly to write
Speaker 2: that out, because I have such a deep well of
Speaker 2: emotions around her and around the cast members that I
Speaker 2: was able to get really close with at that time
Speaker 2: in spite of the fact that I was in this
Speaker 2: environment in my personal life, there were people that always
Speaker 2: made an effort and she was one of them. And
Speaker 2: so I just have this. I mean, like I said,
Speaker 2: my heart just always turns into a bear hug when
Speaker 2: I think of her, like I just want to I
Speaker 2: just want to give her a hug. And I wish
Speaker 2: that I had been older in my like I wish
Speaker 2: I had known what I know now to be able
Speaker 2: to just sometimes the people that feel prickly in your
Speaker 2: life are actually the people that just need a big hug.
Speaker 2: I know I needed a big hug. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: think maybe she did too, and I so, yeah, do
Speaker 2: you think.
Speaker 1: You'll ever have that conversation one day? Do you hope
Speaker 1: to just kind of talking about everything you both were
Speaker 1: going through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, We've had many conversations, and I think we'll probably
Speaker 2: continue to as the years go on. There's so many
Speaker 2: things that just constantly evolve. But I don't know if
Speaker 2: I've ever actually told her that, So hopefully she'll appreciate.
Speaker 1: That well, I would think. So it's a very interesting
Speaker 1: to say, for sure. Yeah, Joy, there are so many
Speaker 1: things swirling about about a reboot right, and everybody lives
Speaker 1: in of nostalgia and it's so wild to me that
Speaker 1: you created something that literally like helped people have joy,
Speaker 1: you know, pun intended in their own lives when you
Speaker 1: were going through something so wild in your life. You
Speaker 1: let this relationship, this character, this freedom, this joy, this
Speaker 1: piece of pop culture with people that they still talk
Speaker 1: about it. They still are like, oh my god, we
Speaker 1: rewatch it over and over and over again. We're now
Speaker 1: showing our teenagers we want to reboot. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot being said about is a reboot happening, is it
Speaker 1: not happening. You've expressed you would be down to do
Speaker 1: it should that opportunity come about, and depending on what
Speaker 1: that looks like, have there been any other conversations about that,
Speaker 1: and do you really think this could happen because a
Speaker 1: lot of people are holding on to hope.
Speaker 2: Oh it's so sweet. I know. I hear both sides
Speaker 2: of it. Like some people are like, no, just leave
Speaker 2: it alone. It's perfect as it is, and then some
Speaker 2: people are frothing at the bit like please please give
Speaker 2: us more, which I love. I just love either way
Speaker 2: how passionate fans are about what they went through with
Speaker 2: us and how they feel about the future. But in
Speaker 2: terms of actual information, I don't have anything new. There's
Speaker 2: just been. I just I don't know what stage it's in.
Speaker 2: I don't know who's really involved. I don't know almost
Speaker 2: anything about it, so we just have to wait. Sorry.
Speaker 2: I wish I had a better answer for you.
Speaker 1: That's all right, and life were worth the wait, So yes,
Speaker 1: I'm gladly going to wait on that one. But I'm
Speaker 1: so curious kind of jumping off of that and with
Speaker 1: what you've gone through and the PTSD of maybe what
Speaker 1: you experienced, I would imagine there was some level of
Speaker 1: that in your healing journey as Yeah, do you ever
Speaker 1: worry like if a reboot came around, would I have
Speaker 1: a seat at the table or would I not be
Speaker 1: invited because of what I went through and what people
Speaker 1: remembered from my time on the show, Like does your
Speaker 1: mind go there that you have to snap it out
Speaker 1: of that?
Speaker 2: No, because everyone was so generous. I think that was
Speaker 2: one of the biggest surprises when I left the group,
Speaker 2: and you know, I left after I had we had
Speaker 2: wrapped in Wilmington, so I didn't go back to North Carolina,
Speaker 2: And there are sometimes I wish I had left a
Speaker 2: little bit sooner so that I could have gone back
Speaker 2: and really invested in those relationships in a new and
Speaker 2: meaningful way, but that just wasn't in the cards at
Speaker 2: the time. I feel like everyone was so kind and
Speaker 2: generous though in as I would start to leak out
Speaker 2: this information, like yeah, actually I was in a really
Speaker 2: bad situation and I got out. I was met not
Speaker 2: with people saying I told you so, but people just
Speaker 2: having big open arms and saying we're here, we love you,
Speaker 2: We see who you are in spite of all of
Speaker 2: the stuff that you were carrying. And there's good and
Speaker 2: bad parts to everybody's personality character, we're all complex humans.
Speaker 2: But to realize that people were actually able to see
Speaker 2: through a lot of the superiority complex, the stubbornness, the youth,
Speaker 2: stubborn youth that I was existing in and see like, no,
Speaker 2: she's a person that's worth having around, just a person
Speaker 2: that I still want to maintain a friendship with and
Speaker 2: invest in in spite of all those things that really
Speaker 2: blew me away. It was the most astonishing display of
Speaker 2: grace that I've felt like I didn't deserve, and there
Speaker 2: were a lot of people from the show that really
Speaker 2: gave that to me, and it kind of makes me
Speaker 2: emotional It makes me so happy. Like every time we
Speaker 2: go back and do these conventions with whether in Wilmington
Speaker 2: or Paris or wherever we get to go and all
Speaker 2: get together as a group. I wish our crew was
Speaker 2: with us too, But I have such fomo if we're
Speaker 2: not together, I'm like, where's everybody going to dinner? What's happening?
Speaker 2: I just want to know everything. I want to be
Speaker 2: a part of it. Also, I don't miss anything else.
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful group of people.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Having that grace in life is something that I
Speaker 1: think the whole world needs to have more of right now.
Speaker 1: And when you go through something like that and you
Speaker 1: realize how gentle and graceful people are with you, it
Speaker 1: really makes you look at life, I imagine, in a
Speaker 1: different perspective. So it's really cool to hear that the
Speaker 1: cast was very much like that with you. And before
Speaker 1: we move on to a part of this memoir that
Speaker 1: I am going to read back to you because it
Speaker 1: blew me away. Oh okay, yes I am. I have
Speaker 1: a very big problem in media when people try to
Speaker 1: pin people against each other. So I want to take
Speaker 1: a quick second and say, I just heard you want
Speaker 1: call your daddy you brought up the rumors, speculator, the
Speaker 1: rumors around you and Hillary. You very graciously said you're
Speaker 1: working some things out, you hope to work them out,
Speaker 1: and that's that. But now I'm seeing online there are
Speaker 1: things coming out like if there's a reboot, you might
Speaker 1: not be a part of it because of whatever that is.
Speaker 1: And I just want to put this out there because
Speaker 1: I feel like my job as an interviewer is to
Speaker 1: not encourage our behavior because it's bullshit and I don't
Speaker 1: like when women get pinned against each other. I think
Speaker 1: it's disgusting and it's gross and it gives people a
Speaker 1: bad name who are in this business. So from your perspective,
Speaker 1: like you don't believe that would be true, whatever's going
Speaker 1: on there would not affect your involvement in a potential reboot.
Speaker 2: So crazy to me, all of this. I love Hillary.
Speaker 2: I have no ill will toward her. I have no
Speaker 2: like I would never want to go back to a
Speaker 2: One Tree Hill reboot with animosity, like that's just that's
Speaker 2: not who either of us are. So yeah, and I
Speaker 2: agree with you, it's not helpful. It's not helpful, particularly
Speaker 2: because actually the irony of the fact that I am
Speaker 2: trying to tell people a story about what happens in
Speaker 2: group triangulation when other people come in and they start
Speaker 2: taking somebody's words and taking another person's words and trying
Speaker 2: to create something that's not there, and gaslighting and all
Speaker 2: of these things. And everybody is like, Okay, we love
Speaker 2: your book, but also like, can you please tell us
Speaker 2: what's happening with Hillary? Just like this is crazy to me.
Speaker 2: Do you understand that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2: This triangulation is so not helpful.
Speaker 1: This is me off. That's why I would never sit
Speaker 1: here and say, oh, tell me, I don't care, it's
Speaker 1: not my lin.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: The point is like, I don't want people running with
Speaker 1: the story that that's affecting whatever that project is. So
Speaker 1: thank you for clarity.
Speaker 2: We're going to run with things all the time.
Speaker 1: Well, this is me off. I'm a Jersey brilliant woman.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean, come on,
Speaker 2: we're gonna have sometime great may let's talk about this
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 1: Well that's good to know because we're all rooting for
Speaker 1: that reboot to happen, and we all of course want you,
Speaker 1: and there's in my opinion, no reboot without you.
Speaker 2: So oh thanks.
Speaker 1: Anyway, back to the cult. That's for a transition.
Speaker 2: No, it's good. It is a good segue because what
Speaker 2: we were just talking about, you know, there's like people
Speaker 2: people getting involved in other people's relationships.
Speaker 1: So yes, yes, yes, Well the Cult took I think
Speaker 1: two million dollars from you, if not more. And there's
Speaker 1: a moment in your memoir where you're sitting in the
Speaker 1: bank and you have a really gracious teller trying to
Speaker 1: help you sort this out, and that moment comes to mind,
Speaker 1: you know, comes to fruition, and you were just kind
Speaker 1: of like, wait what and this is what you wrote.
Speaker 1: I highlighted this because it was so wait can you see.
Speaker 2: It where it's whoa, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm someone that like mark books and you.
Speaker 2: Don't even know what that does to me seeing my
Speaker 2: book in someone's hands, the way that I mark up
Speaker 2: and write on books. This is a really really amazing moment.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's crazy. My husband's like, oh, I want to
Speaker 1: read it. I'm like, don't mind, mom on notes now,
Speaker 1: I'll send it one perfect okay, But this is what
Speaker 1: you said and that moment finding out that two million
Speaker 1: dollars was gone in that bank. What a waste of space.
Speaker 1: I was, a waste of talent, of time I had
Speaker 1: thrown away what little spare time I had chasing a
Speaker 1: god I was now not even sure existed, enduring years
Speaker 1: of abuse with a pathetic cult of selfish people, and
Speaker 1: living in a place where every dream I had went
Speaker 1: to die. Oh yeah, Wow, that moment for you must
Speaker 1: have been what I imagine is one of the hardest
Speaker 1: moments you've ever faced in your life.
Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, Just the depth self loathing, the realization crashing
Speaker 2: down of like, I have wasted so much time. I
Speaker 2: cannot believe that I had so much at my feet.
Speaker 2: I had so much opportunity. And I'm not saying to
Speaker 2: build myself up. I had opportunity to participate in the world,
Speaker 2: in the communities that I was in, participate in art
Speaker 2: and storytelling, to be able to learn and listen. And
Speaker 2: these key years, especially in your twenties, when you are
Speaker 2: gathering up so much around you that you're going to
Speaker 2: we're like little beavers. We're gathering all the things and
Speaker 2: we're building. We're building the dam of our character and
Speaker 2: our personality and like, who are we going to be?
Speaker 2: And I was siphoning those things off of an environment
Speaker 2: that was a mirage. It's just it was really, really devastating,
Speaker 2: and I just hated myself.
Speaker 1: Are you at a place in your life where you
Speaker 1: no longer beat yourself up for mistakes that were made
Speaker 1: in the past or for things you wish you did differently,
Speaker 1: Because that's a moment that I just read where that
Speaker 1: person really truly seems like she hated herself. And we
Speaker 1: all go through things in our lives where we might
Speaker 1: feel like that. I certainly have had my own journey
Speaker 1: specifically related to my sexualities, so we all have our things.
Speaker 1: But are you able to not beat yourself up over
Speaker 1: your experience? Now?
Speaker 2: I have fundamental neural wiring that I am trying to
Speaker 2: grow new pathways where I don't beat myself up as
Speaker 2: a default for everything. However, in terms of flogging myself
Speaker 2: for my past in this story and everything that you
Speaker 2: read and seen that I walked through, I have come
Speaker 2: to peace with almost everything in that book there is.
Speaker 2: I don't feel angry. I don't there are very few
Speaker 2: moments where I feel like I missed out on something
Speaker 2: and That's also hugely because I've found a place in
Speaker 2: my spiritual journey to be able to release the shame
Speaker 2: by talking about it, by sharing, by forgiving myself one
Speaker 2: day at a time. So there's new things all the
Speaker 2: time that I beat myself up about and have days
Speaker 2: when I'm just like, you're such a fucking idiot, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, why did you say that? Why did you
Speaker 2: do that? And I'm trying to relearn that behavioral pattern.
Speaker 2: I don't really know where it originated or why I
Speaker 2: do that, but I'm working on it. But it's not
Speaker 2: necessarily now related to that time in my past.
Speaker 1: Well that's good to hear. We're all works in progress, right,
Speaker 1: We're never going to be perfect. But to know that
Speaker 1: you're not the person in that moment anymore and you're
Speaker 1: not going to be so hard on yourself, I think
Speaker 1: is a huge step in the right direction. And also
Speaker 1: by even releasing this memoir, there's a moment towards the
Speaker 1: end of the book where what you said changed everything
Speaker 1: for me. And as I mentioned when I first met
Speaker 1: you in the beginning of this interview, being someone who
Speaker 1: maybe thought a certain way or the thought crossed my mind,
Speaker 1: not that I ever thought so deeply about it. But
Speaker 1: you know, the thoughts that I mentioned earlier to cross
Speaker 1: my mind. What you said at the end to a
Speaker 1: former friend at a party about is a woman in
Speaker 1: an abusive relationship who doesn't leave stupid And I'm paraphrasing there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: To put it in that context, in that perspective, and
Speaker 1: to equate being in a cult and dealing with the
Speaker 1: type of behavior that you were receiving as abusive, right,
Speaker 1: and abuse exists in many forms, was really this oh
Speaker 1: my god moment where I thought, holy shit, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is the same. It is the same. You would
Speaker 1: never say that about a woman who was going through that,
Speaker 1: and why should you think that about someone going through
Speaker 1: what you went through? And I really think that sets
Speaker 1: it up in a very important and powerful way.
Speaker 2: Oh thank you, gosh, that's so great to hear that
Speaker 2: it hit you that way and came through I'm so glad. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say except that that's when
Speaker 2: I realized that the word cult was not admissible in
Speaker 2: court because it's not definable. The closest definition that a
Speaker 2: courtroom will accept is high demand group, which has its
Speaker 2: own sort of checklist of whether, and different judges may
Speaker 2: deem it differently, whether it was qualified, whether something qualifies
Speaker 2: as a high demand group. Some may say any church does,
Speaker 2: and some may say only the most extreme where there's
Speaker 2: physical violence happening. And so there's this very strange, undefinable
Speaker 2: space that the word cult or high demand group lives in.
Speaker 2: But one thing that I think really is definable is
Speaker 2: community abuse, community manipulation when there's a top down trickle,
Speaker 2: and that could be in a workplace, that could be
Speaker 2: in a religious environment, that could be at a gym,
Speaker 2: like there's so many different places where you could find that.
Speaker 2: But the function, because it's from top down, the function
Speaker 2: of it is the same in a romantic partnership abusive
Speaker 2: relationship because the personality disorder that causes the ripple effect
Speaker 2: is the same. So whether that personality is more attracted
Speaker 2: to controlling a group of people or more attracted to
Speaker 2: controlling one person, that's a variant, but the actual malignant
Speaker 2: narcissism is the same. And so the people who get
Speaker 2: caught up in it, whether it's a singular person caught
Speaker 2: in the partnership or a group of people, they're all
Speaker 2: singular people caught up in a version of a partnership.
Speaker 2: It's just with one person at the top and then
Speaker 2: with other people on the side. It actually, I think
Speaker 2: narcissists prey on intelligent empaths. So the chance is that
Speaker 2: you are a really intelligent person who's not stupid, who's
Speaker 2: not weak, and then got caught up in something like
Speaker 2: this are higher. If that makes sense. I kind of
Speaker 2: feel like I'm turning my sentence upside down, But it
Speaker 2: would make sense for you to be attracted to someone
Speaker 2: with a narcissistic personality. If you're an intelligent EmPATH, that
Speaker 2: doesn't make you stupid or weak or crazy. It's just
Speaker 2: is how the personality disorder works, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: It doesn't make you stupid, weak, or crazy. Bears repeating,
Speaker 1: because we need to erase that sort of judgment period.
Speaker 1: And I think it was a really important point that
Speaker 1: you made. Now, is your relation, like with God, whatever
Speaker 1: that means to you, has that been rebuilt for you?
Speaker 1: Has it been changed? What is it?
Speaker 2: I mean, is anyone's relationship with God definable? I can
Speaker 2: say that it's the most authentic relationship with God that
Speaker 2: I've ever had because I feel so much more safe
Speaker 2: and loved. Now that I've accepted that I can't do
Speaker 2: anything to earn that love. Now I feel like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm safe to make mistakes. I'm because you're going to
Speaker 2: turn it into something good. It doesn't mean I'm going
Speaker 2: to run around trying to do stupid things, obviously, But
Speaker 2: I don't feel the sense of anxiety around decision making
Speaker 2: that I used to when I didn't trust myself and
Speaker 2: thought I needed somebody else to tell me how to
Speaker 2: live my life. I don't feel like I have to
Speaker 2: hit all the points on the checklist of whatever, any group,
Speaker 2: any religion, anything is telling me I need to do
Speaker 2: in order to earn my way into God's favor. I've
Speaker 2: experienced too much to believe that that's the way that
Speaker 2: it's meant to be. I don't think that works for anyone.
Speaker 2: I really don't, and I know I guess it can
Speaker 2: be kind of polarizing to say like I have some
Speaker 2: existential answer. But I've never met anybody who is really
Speaker 2: satisfied by living everything off the checklist, who really feels
Speaker 2: like they're seen and known and loved. That just feels
Speaker 2: like earning to me. So I don't have all the answers.
Speaker 2: But I do have a much more authentic relationship with
Speaker 2: God than I ever did. I feel more free And what.
Speaker 1: A beautiful feeling that must be. Yeah, Oh, I love
Speaker 1: hearing that. It's so nice to see when someone comes
Speaker 1: out of something so traumatizing and still has such a
Speaker 1: beautiful sense of hope. And I think that's really a
Speaker 1: really important message as well to put out there.
Speaker 2: Joy.
Speaker 1: The name of this show is I've never said this before.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm trying to think as we were, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what's coming as we wrap up. I feel
Speaker 1: like I've been so open already in this whole conversation.
Speaker 1: But in the spirit of the show name, is there
Speaker 1: anything you can think of whatever that question means to you,
Speaker 1: no right or wrong answer that you've never said before
Speaker 1: that you want to share today.
Speaker 2: This is so hard for me because I I mean, honestly,
Speaker 2: this is one of the biggest missions in my just
Speaker 2: in my own personal life. Once I left this group
Speaker 2: and started realizing how much shame was isolating me, I
Speaker 2: started to just talk about it and say things, and
Speaker 2: I just I'm like, a, you can't shut me up,
Speaker 2: Like I just want to say all the things so
Speaker 2: that it doesn't get locked in my own body. Obviously,
Speaker 2: you know I'm not. I'm not trying to un to
Speaker 2: give everybody every piece of information ever, But you know,
Speaker 2: I just want to be open and honest. I want
Speaker 2: to live that kind of a life. So I don't
Speaker 2: know what I would have never said. I say all
Speaker 2: the bad words. Now I say, I say I love
Speaker 2: you to all the people. Gosh, I wonder, I bet
Speaker 2: there's something like I haven't ever said to my parents.
Speaker 2: Maybe like I'm still scared of having vulnerable conversations with
Speaker 2: my parents. Hmmm. Like it's just I'm scared of emotion.
Speaker 2: I'm trying, I'm working on it, but like being in
Speaker 2: front of people, it's the same thing that I talk
Speaker 2: about in the beginning of the book, like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I'm crying in front of a whole bunch of people.
Speaker 2: This is terrifying. I still feel that. And when I'm
Speaker 2: with somebody that I really care about and I start crying,
Speaker 2: I feel all kinds of uncomfortable things that I don't
Speaker 2: know how to deal with. I don't know if I've
Speaker 2: ever just flat outside to my parents and I'm sorry
Speaker 2: for what I put you through in those ten years
Speaker 2: I think we've danced around versions of that, but I
Speaker 2: don't think i've ever just flat out said that. So Mom, Dad,
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry for what I put you through for
Speaker 2: the last well those those ten years that's been. It's
Speaker 2: been a while out of it now, but yeah, and
Speaker 2: thank you for sticking by me and for your patience
Speaker 2: and grace.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I hope you send this to them because
Speaker 1: that really that really is it?
Speaker 2: Colum?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope you do that too. But that's
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful thing to share and share it so publicly,
Speaker 1: and I think we always have things we wish we
Speaker 1: said to parents or whoever that we haven't, So thank
Speaker 1: you for sharing that, and thank you for being open.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's still probably a lot for you,
Speaker 1: So I hope you feel good with this conversation and
Speaker 1: then sharing.
Speaker 2: You're lovely. I really enjoyed talking with you, and thank
Speaker 2: you for actually really diving into the book and taking
Speaker 2: so much out of it and being able to communicate
Speaker 2: really intelligently about it emotional intelligence as well. You're so
Speaker 2: well prepared and just easy to talk to and so positive,
Speaker 2: like this was really really nice experience. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you, thank you, and on our way out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I'm a theater loving boy. Oh yes, I'm here.
Speaker 2: Why were we talking about that for the last hour.
Speaker 1: I allow you two more hours, and I got to
Speaker 1: get you out the door. You have somewhere to be.
Speaker 1: But I know that you are offered bell right in
Speaker 1: be and the Beast, and you turn that down because
Speaker 1: of the cult. So let's do a little manifesting moment
Speaker 1: right here. Oh if even theater is something still on
Speaker 1: your radar? Yeah, what would be one or two or
Speaker 1: three rolls or shows that you would want to be
Speaker 1: a part of on Broadway? Oh my gosh, whether it's
Speaker 1: out now or not.
Speaker 2: Think Haitiestown would be a ball. I don't know if
Speaker 2: I could grunge my voice up enough like the Amber,
Speaker 2: but I would love to try. And Satine. I had
Speaker 2: one of the worst auditions of my life for Satine.
Speaker 2: It was really comical. It was like a producer session
Speaker 2: and I just totally choked, Like I did super well
Speaker 2: in the music session with the producer ahead of time,
Speaker 2: and it was like things were looking really good for me,
Speaker 2: and there were like six girls that were going back.
Speaker 2: It was replacing Karen for a Broadway and then they
Speaker 2: were doing the West End cast and all this and
Speaker 2: uh oh, man, I don't know what happened. I walked
Speaker 2: in that room and my brain just went too fast
Speaker 2: and my mouth slowed down and I couldn't I couldn't
Speaker 2: do it. I totally choked. But then Courtney, Uh oh, shoot,
Speaker 2: what's her last name? I know her? It was Courtney
Speaker 2: because I know her through a friend. So we met
Speaker 2: and she was just Courtney to me. But anyway, she's
Speaker 2: the girl that did Aladdin, er Jasmine and Aladdin, and
Speaker 2: she got Satina. She's doing fabulous job. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: would really enjoy that. I think that would be a
Speaker 2: really fun role if I could have another chance to
Speaker 2: not completely fuck it up.
Speaker 1: That was all right, Well we put it out there
Speaker 1: so broadby producers. I hope you listening. Let's go, let's
Speaker 1: do it. Let's do it. Joy, thank you again. I
Speaker 1: had so much fun hanging out with you. Your memoir
Speaker 1: is out right now. Everybody can go order it. Best
Speaker 1: place to order it.
Speaker 2: Oh, you can do Amazon, you can do Barnes and Noble. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know how all the rigamarole works with like
Speaker 2: numbers and sales from particular avenues and stuff, but I
Speaker 2: would just say go, yeah, go grab it on Amazon
Speaker 2: or at Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 1: Dinner for Vampire is out now. Thank you, my friend.
Speaker 1: I hope you can do that again. This was lovely,
Speaker 1: It really was.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 1: I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Didario.
Speaker 1: This podcast is executive produced by Andrew Piblisi at iHeartRadio
Speaker 1: and by me Tommy, with editing by Joshua Colaudney. I've
Speaker 1: Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Duran
Speaker 1: podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate review and
Speaker 1: subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode,
Speaker 1: tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.