1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with me, 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Tommy di Dario. This episode is perhaps one of my 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: favorite conversations that I've ever had on my show because 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: it is so real and raw and she is so vulnerable. 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: That she I'm referring to is the amazing and brilliant 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Bethany Joy Lenz, who is my guest today and you 7 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: know when you love her From her starring role as 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: Haley James Scott in the fan favorite series of One 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Tree Hill, her character is beloved, and Joy and her 10 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: co star James Lafferty went on to play one of 11 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: the most popular TV couples in pop culture history. But 12 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: while Joy was in one of the most popular TV 13 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: shows in the world, she was also getting more and 14 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: more involved with a very dangerous cult. Her new memoir, 15 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: Jennerfer Vampires is out right now and it chronicles her 16 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: spending a decade in a cult and her quest to 17 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: break free. Publicly, she was the girl that people adored 18 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: from One Tree Hill, rising to the heights of international fame, 19 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: but privately, she felt like she was falling deeper and 20 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: deeper into a cult that she couldn't break free from, 21 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: until one day she had enough. I thank Joy for 22 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: being so open and honest with me in this conversation. 23 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: And I truly believe she is going to help so 24 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: many people by sharing her story. So let's see if 25 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: we can get Joy to say something that she has 26 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: never said before. Joy, how you doing today? 27 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: Good? 28 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: How are you? I am so fantastic. Thank you for 29 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: joining the show. I'm so excited to have you, especially 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: now that I know you were from New Jersey. I 31 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: love a Jersey connection. 32 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: I do too. Jersey people always seem to find each 33 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: other somehow. I feel like it happens all the time. 34 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: I'm in the grocery store and a parking lot and like, hmmm, 35 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: you're Jersey, aren't you. I hear that accent. 36 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: That's right, We're good people. We're good people. Won't welcome 37 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: to the show. I am so excited to talk to 38 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: you because we have quite a lot to dive into. 39 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: I have your book right next to me. I devour this, 40 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: like I wrote you on Instagram. I DMD you because 41 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: I was so just captivated by your story and enthralled 42 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: by your story. And I have to be like super 43 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: honest for a minute with you and tell you that 44 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: before hearing about your story. Myself, like many people, probably 45 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: kind of had this misconception about people that get involved 46 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: in cults, and you automatically think, well, how like, I 47 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: could never allow that to happen to me, and they 48 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: didn't see warning signs, And admittedly and embarrassingly, that's kind 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: of what I would think when I would watch documentaries 50 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: or read stories. And I'm somebody who's so open minded 51 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: and compassionate, but that did kind of cross my mind. 52 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: Then I read your memoir and the way you lay 53 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: it out, it is a must read for anyone who 54 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: is going through any sort of abusive relationship, whether that's 55 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: psychological and emotional, physical, and for anyone who has to 56 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: witness that from afar right. So, I think it's such 57 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: an important part of your life that you open up about, 58 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: and I'm just so thrilled that it's going to be 59 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: out there. So, first, thank you. Let me check in 60 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: on you, because you've been doing a lot of press. 61 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: You're on the cover of People magazine, Your story and 62 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: your business is out there. So how are you feeling 63 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: with this all out? 64 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: Thank you for everything you've said. I really appreciate that. 65 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank you for asking that I'm taking 66 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: it a day at a time. There are days when 67 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: it feels overwhelming. I feel like I am prone to 68 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: I'm someone who's just prone to think that there's somebody 69 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: mad at me at all times, Like somewhere out there, 70 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: someone's mad at me. I've heard someone's feelings. I forgot 71 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: to call somebody back, I said the wrong thing. I 72 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: always live with that anxiety, and it's a constant thing. 73 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: So to put so much of myself out there and 74 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: know that I really did my best to respect everyone 75 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 2: involved and to share my truth because I think it'll 76 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: really help people, there is a huge element that I'm 77 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: living with of just like, oh god, I really hope 78 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: that this is all okay, and I really hope I 79 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: didn't hurt anybody, and I really hope that that it's 80 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: received well. And So to give you a really long 81 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: winded answer, Tommy, I'm doing okay. I'm taking it a 82 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: day at a time, and I'm having a great day today, 83 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: and I'm really happy to be here talking with you. 84 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: Oh good, we love a great day. And I totally 85 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: could understand how you're feeling. All of those things. You 86 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of sum up this entire chapter of your life 87 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: through a brilliant line. I believe you said this to 88 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: Katherine McPhee at a party and you said Bible study 89 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:41,559 Speaker 1: went sideways. I read that and was like, oh my god, 90 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't love this girl more. 91 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: So, it's so funny that you pick that out. 92 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: I love it, Yes, I did. I'm very quirky and 93 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 1: weird and I love a good sense of here mercyll 94 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: I loved that so much. So before we dive into everything, 95 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: I guess, talk to me about the moment before you 96 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: join that Bible study to being fully ingrained into that cult, 97 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: like walking through real quick, how that all happened? 98 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: Okay. The truncated version is I grew up in a 99 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: very normal Western society, charismatic Christian community, non denominational culturally Christian. 100 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: I was used to Bible studies on Wednesday nights or 101 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 2: Sunday nights, or It was just a way of people 102 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: in a faith community connecting, keeping their community close, deepening 103 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: their relationships to each other and to God. It's pretty 104 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: normal in pretty much every faith community that I know of, 105 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: in and out of Christianity. Every religion that I know 106 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: has some version of this, and so that seemed very 107 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: normal to me when I moved to LA and I 108 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: was feeling lonely because I had left New York City 109 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: and I didn't really know anybody and was just trying 110 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: to make friends. And I got invited to this home 111 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: group Bible study that sounded like every other one that 112 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: I'd ever been to, And to be fair, when it started, 113 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: I think it was. I think it was all pretty normal, 114 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: just young professionals with a lot in common creatively, with 115 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: a lot in common in our faith, and we lived 116 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: in the same area and just wanted to get together 117 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 2: and get to know each other. And then it took 118 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 2: about a year, well actually I was in it for 119 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: about six months, six to eight months maybe before a 120 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: pastor from another state was invited to come speak at 121 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: the group, and then slowly began kind of infiltrating and 122 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: becoming a just a regular at the group. He would 123 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 2: fly in from out of state, and he didn't have 124 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: a church at the time. He had been well you'll 125 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 2: have to read the book to find out. I found 126 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 2: out later why he didn't have a church anymore. But nevertheless, 127 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: we saw him as an older, wiser man who was 128 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: an ordained past stir and somebody who could really give 129 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: us some wisdom that we as, recognizing that we were 130 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: young and still inexperienced in many ways, maybe needed some guidance. 131 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,119 Speaker 2: Unfortunately we just chose the wrong person. 132 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: That sets it up very well. And you mentioned being 133 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: lonely when you got out to LA. I feel the 134 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: loneliness every time I go to lam in New Yorker. 135 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: I've lived here my whole life, and I feel that. 136 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: I always say it's my husband when I come back, like, 137 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: how was your trip good? But God, I always feel 138 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: a little lonely here. Yeah, you felt that when you 139 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: got out there. You also were starting to compare yourself 140 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: to some other actors in the business and maybe weren't 141 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: feeling as attractive as they were, as pretty as they were. 142 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: And you even said that quote, I was an alley 143 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: cat still cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my pause, which 144 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: is hysterical but also kind of heartbreaking. It's like, no, no, girl, 145 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: you have all the same value. But I understand how 146 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: comparison syndrome works. I've been there too. So would you 147 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: say loneliness was a driving force for you to I 148 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: don't want to say have blinders on to what was 149 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: going on with the Bible study turn cult, but to 150 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: keep going with it all. 151 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: For sure, I was so desperate to be seen. I'm 152 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: so desperate for community. I'd been wanting that my whole life. 153 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: I was an only child. My parents were wonderful people 154 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: that had a lot of their own tumultuous issues going on, 155 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: and I isolated myself. I got really used to my 156 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: own company, which is a gift in some ways, but 157 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: I also just it was hard for me to make 158 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: friends because we moved around a lot, and then I 159 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: was in the theater, and that you know, as a 160 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: theater person, you make close friends for three months and 161 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: then you move on to a new group of friends. 162 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: So there was this longing for consistency that I just 163 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: had a really hard time finding a cure for. And 164 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: when I became a part of this group, when I 165 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 2: started connecting with these people, it felt like it was 166 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: going so much deeper than just the sort of surface 167 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: relationships that you have when you know that you're going 168 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 2: to be moving on. And I think we all have 169 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: this need for some spot in our lives. There are 170 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: holes that need to be filled based on our rearing, 171 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: based on relationships that we've had when we were young. 172 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: There's these sort of very Freudian basic needs that if 173 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: they're not all met, we look to fill them, and 174 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: we need them so badly to be filled that we're 175 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: willing to make excuses for things that maybe are red 176 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 2: flags because we just really really want to feel the 177 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: thing that's going to make us feel better in the moment. 178 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 2: Does that make sense or was that? No? 179 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: That absolutely makes sense. I think it's easy to ignore 180 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: red flags when you want to believe so badly that 181 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: something is so true. What was one of those early 182 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: red flags you think you maybe missed? 183 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, now, I mean, gosh, in retrospect, I can 184 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: I can certainly see that anyone, anyone who is just 185 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: so immediately intimate like it just dives right in with you. 186 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: I'm not talking about somebody who's willing to have an 187 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: emotional conversation, or somebody who's willing to dive in deep 188 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: in terms of like philosophy, or just being willing to 189 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: be a friend to a stranger and connect. I'm talking 190 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: about somebody who's willing to dive deep into intimacy in 191 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 2: friendship or romantic relationship on a consistent basis without having 192 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: really built trust. Is a red flag you just it's 193 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: that's codependence or narcissism, attempting to manipulate you. I just 194 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 2: don't think there's any way around it. 195 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: So I have I have. 196 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: Big red flags at about people who are just like 197 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: super they just want to go in and get really close, 198 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 2: really fast. I'm like, sum's up, something's up. 199 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And that's that's good intuition. I mean, I've 200 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: I've dealt with that myself, and you don't want to 201 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: go through life cold. But it's good to have a 202 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: little bit of a perceptive eye, you know. So I 203 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: think I think nothing's wrong with that. And like you said, 204 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: this group, their basis was manipulation and isolation, and you know, 205 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: my God like wanting to isolate you from friends and 206 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: families so that you're so co dependent on only them 207 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: and that they are the only group of people in 208 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: your life, which it's manipulation. One oh one. So do 209 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: you remember one of the first times where you felt 210 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: like that happened, where you really felt like you were 211 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: starting to isolate away from the people in your former 212 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: life to blend more with these people. 213 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the thing is that I didn't not 214 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: really notice it. Then I can tell you what it 215 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 2: was now, but it's still hard to see back then. 216 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: But yeah, I remember. There's a character in my book 217 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: called Camille. She's a British actress that I was friends 218 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: with in New York and she also moved out to 219 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: LA and I invited her to come to the group 220 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: and start hanging out. So she spent some time with 221 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: us there, and she told us me and my dad 222 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: actually later in conversation that she was to remember being 223 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: at a meeting with us, one of the group meetings, 224 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: where I was told that I really shouldn't talk to 225 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: my dad anymore. And when she said that, it triggered 226 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: this memory. I was like, oh, my gosh, I do remember. 227 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: I don't remember being explicitly told that, but it's wild 228 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 2: that that's what she heard and she could see it, 229 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: and she, as you'll read in the book, she was 230 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: able to extract herself before things got too bad. But 231 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: what I heard in that moment was people looking out 232 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: for me, protecting me, trying to help me see patterns 233 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: of codepen in my family, and telling me you should 234 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: be careful, you should have boundaries, and your dad's not 235 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: a bad person. He just is not serving you. He's 236 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: not helping you right now in your life, and you're 237 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: not obligated to maintain a relationship with someone just because 238 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: they're blood related to you. Like, what's so crazy about 239 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: it is in a different context, if someone is genuinely abusive, 240 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: if someone is harmful to you in some way, I 241 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 2: don't believe that you're obligated to have a relationship with 242 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: that person because of any reason. But because it was 243 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: used in this context when there was no abuse, there 244 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: was no problem. All he was doing was just saying, 245 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: I disagree with this group. I disagree with what you 246 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: say you believe. I don't think this is right. I 247 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: think they're trying to harm you. Disagreement equaled, you are 248 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: now other. You have to be kind of caricaturized into 249 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: shrunk down into just a person who disagrees with the group. 250 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: You're dehumanized. All of the things about you, your fact 251 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: that you've raised this child, the fact that you have 252 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: been her father, have loved her, have invested in her life, 253 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: none of those things matter. Your character, the upstanding person 254 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: that you are, None of those things matter because of 255 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: this one critical thing, which is that you disagree, which 256 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: is I think something we see a lot these days 257 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: but that's another conversation, so you see how. But so 258 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: Camille heard it and she was like, what is going on? 259 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: They're telling you to stop talking to your parents, And 260 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: I heard people loving on me and trying to protect 261 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 2: me from someone in my life who maybe is harmful. 262 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: And it ended up ultimately working. I mean, you were 263 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: strange from your parents for quite a long time, and 264 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: your dad was definitely the more vocal one. And there's 265 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: such a badass mo and I don't feel like this 266 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: ruins anything, so I'm going to share it at the 267 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: end where eventually, when you come out of it, he 268 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: had a folder of all of his findings and he 269 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: was just waiting for that moment to be like I 270 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: got to let's go, babe. And you know, but during 271 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: the height of the cult for you, you didn't have 272 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: that relationship with them, and that's what they wanted, right. 273 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: They wanted to keep it all all in house, and 274 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: literally in house in Idaho and their compound. And you 275 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: ended up, yeah, marrying the leader's son, and it was 276 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: all very you know, incestual. It was all like these people, 277 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: you will not stray. 278 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: It's like a group marriage almost, and that's what when 279 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: the word covenant started coming up, you know, years later, 280 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: probably five six years in was like this idea of 281 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: it's not just a church, like, this is a covenant. 282 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: This is a which is a word used in the Bible. 283 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: I don't know if it was used in other ways 284 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: in society at that time. I'm sure it was. But 285 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: the idea is this like unbreakable binding contract that this 286 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: group of people has decided we're going to do life together. 287 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: So you know, you're safe to be completely vulnerable, completely 288 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: raw and real, show all the ugly sides of yourself 289 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: because no one's going to leave. It's like a guarantee 290 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: that no one will leave you, which in some utopian 291 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: dream sounds nice but in reality it's hell. 292 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: Now. Not everything that happened during that period was terrible. 293 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: One being you got a major show that changed the 294 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: course of your entire life as an actress. You know, 295 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: a little show called One Tree Hill. I don't know 296 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: if anyone's ever heard about it, but you booked that 297 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: and I think people are surprised to know that for 298 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: all nine seasons, ten years of your life that you 299 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: were a part of that show. You were involved with 300 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: this group, and yeah, started off not as intense as 301 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: where you were in season two or three of the show. 302 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: But it was a part of your life, So how 303 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: are you able to do that show and kind of 304 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: get away from the group at that phase where they 305 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: didn't feel like, oh my god, we're losing control over 306 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: her because she's going to be gone now for eight 307 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: months of the year. 308 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: Money money, money, They were making money off of me. 309 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: Of course they were happy to have me go out 310 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: and be a part of this. It's like, yeah, let's 311 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 2: support Joy while she's out there. Let's make it work. However, 312 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: we got to do it, they said. I didn't write 313 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: about this in the book because we just there wasn't 314 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 2: space for everything. But I had a minder sent to 315 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: live with me while I was out there for several 316 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: of the seasons from the group. And now that's not 317 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 2: what she was called. It was just my friend or 318 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: my assistant, or you know, she's There were various ways 319 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: that the relationship changed. But she was living with me 320 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: while I was married and my husband was living back 321 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 2: at home in the in the Big House, or well, 322 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 2: in the house that I had bought. But I think 323 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: he'd probably spent most of his time at the Big 324 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: House and she was living with me to kind of 325 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: keep an eye on me and make sure that I 326 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: was I don't know what, but she was certainly reporting 327 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: back to them. So I think that they and when 328 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 2: I say they, by the way, I mean the leadership 329 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 2: in this group, because the majority of the people that 330 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 2: were on the lower sort of the kids of the group, 331 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: I would say, in our twenties, they've all got their 332 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 2: own version of my story, do you know what I mean? 333 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: I say that they've got their own version of their story, 334 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 2: but like of what happened to them the way that 335 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: I do of what happened to me, And some of 336 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: them were encouraged to stay at their jobs because they 337 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 2: had a more high paying job and because they were 338 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: quote unquote tithing to the group, that money was valuable 339 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: to the leadership. So I think that's really how it happened. 340 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: They just they kept me tied in because the money, 341 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: but they wanted me to to day a part of 342 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: one streil for that reason. 343 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's an important clarification to make 344 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: because some people might think, oh, how could that be, 345 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: how could you be allowed to do that? But it 346 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: really was a form of control because they were taking 347 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: your money, which we're going to get to in a bit. 348 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: And the big house that you just mentioned for everybody 349 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: listening who hasn't read the book yet, that means the 350 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: compound in Idaho that the yeah, you know leaders ran 351 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: that everybody lived in. 352 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: It's so weird when I hear that word compound, because 353 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: I'm like, I think of compounds as these sort of 354 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: uh I guess I think of a compound as a 355 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: place that is has multiple homes all on the same 356 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: like a you know, thirty acres and it's multiple homes 357 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: and they've got a little an annex and all of 358 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: the little things. This really just was a giant house, 359 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 2: and other people in the group lived in the neighborhood. 360 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 2: But it wasn't like an actual nobody bought land and 361 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 2: had everyone move on to the land, and like we 362 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: weren't farming, we weren't doing which some people do and 363 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 2: those are legitimate. I mean, it's the same kind of 364 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 2: it's the same kind of thing that I think could 365 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: have happened to our group if it hadn't fallen apart 366 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 2: after ten years. But those other groups just started in 367 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 2: the same way. I don't mean to be rambling, sorry, 368 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 2: but the big house. It was like, it was just 369 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 2: this giant house. At the end of We'll Call to Sac, 370 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: I wonder what the neighbors thought. 371 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: So we're going for a night walk. What's going on 372 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: in there? 373 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: I never met any of the neighbors in that entire neighborhood, 374 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: and the houses were not far away from each other. 375 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: In those whole ten years. I never met a neighbor. 376 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: Wow. Smart Anyway, well it tracks. I mean, honestly, it 377 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: tracts because you weren't encouraged to go be social and 378 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: you know, you wanted to stay within the group. So 379 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: it makes sense. So okay, so you went off to 380 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: do One Tree Hill. You were making money, which meant 381 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: the cult was making money. But out of that came 382 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: a brilliant character and a brilliant performance and a role 383 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: that means so much to so many people. I mean, 384 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: you will forever be part of one of the most 385 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: iconic couples in all of television in the history of 386 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: pop culture, which must feel pretty good. So when you think, wow, 387 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: that relationship, what makes you smile? 388 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I mean James, he's just such an 389 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: upstanding human and he's so creative, he's I mean, he 390 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: left Montreal and started his own show. Everybody's doing great 391 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: and it's hilarious. And he's always really soulful and thoughtful 392 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: and such an interesting person. And I'm just so grateful 393 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: that I got the opportunity to work with him when 394 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: he was just a baby. He was seventeen when he started. 395 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 2: He was the youngest of all of us. And to 396 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: just be around someone who came from a really strong 397 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 2: family and a really loving environment, and he was so professional. 398 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I had probably been in the business a 399 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: little longer than him, but he was he was more 400 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: professional than Member. One time he walked out of his trailer. 401 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 2: It's just like in season one, he walked out of 402 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: his trailer holding his wardrobe on hangers and at the 403 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: end of the day, and I was like, what are 404 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: you what are you doing. He's like, I'm just taking 405 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: my clothes back to wardrobe. And I'm thinking, oh my god, 406 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: I just throw my clothes on the floor of my trailer. 407 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 2: Nobody ever told me that that's not what I'm supposed 408 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 2: to do. It's like the only child syndrome of just 409 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 2: like throw your clothes on the floor and go to school, 410 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 2: Like nobody ever told me not to do that, so 411 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 2: I just never learned that's amazing, isn't that so crazy? 412 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: And from then I just started hanging my clothes up 413 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: and sometimes I would take them back depending on what 414 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 2: the day was. But like I learned from this. He 415 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 2: was a young kid at the time, and I learned 416 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: so much from him, and we really had a great 417 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 2: time together. So I think when I look back on 418 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: Nathan and Haley, what makes me happy is thinking about 419 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: the time that he and I actually got to spend together. 420 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: He's a great person. 421 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: Were you able to keep in touch over the years 422 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: or with everything that happened it just made it difficult. 423 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: Oh, we stayed in touch. I mean we live really 424 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: different lives. We're in different places, and it's like every 425 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: job that every actor has, you get really close while 426 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: you're on set, and then once the job is over, 427 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: you move on and you just get close to different people. 428 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: It's kind of the nature, the necessary nature of the job, 429 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: I think. But yes, and we see each other conventions 430 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: all the time, and we've always we've always just had 431 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: a great rapport. 432 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: Like I said, those scenes iconic, epic, the kissing and 433 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: the rain, I mean, all of it. 434 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: I know it's so romantic. 435 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: All of it. 436 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: The thing is that it's like, you don't know how 437 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: funny it is because we're it's actually a hose with 438 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: holes in it, like strapped to a sea stand in 439 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 2: the air, and it's freezing cold water and it's pelting 440 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: down and we're trying to keep our eyes open, you know. 441 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 2: But all of those things. To go through that kind 442 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: of stuff with another person is always just bonding and fun. 443 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: You also write about one of your biggest regrets from 444 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: your time on One Tree Hill, and you talked about 445 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: this in the memoir. It's with Sophia Bush, and you 446 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: said you were going through your own insecurities at the time. 447 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: She was probably going through some things of her own 448 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: at the time, but that you really wish quote I 449 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: could go back and time to her trailer and give 450 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: her a really big hug. Yeah, talk to me about that. 451 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know what else sort is to say. 452 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: I mean, I I agonized over how exactly to write 453 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: that out, because I have such a deep well of 454 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 2: emotions around her and around the cast members that I 455 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: was able to get really close with at that time 456 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: in spite of the fact that I was in this 457 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: environment in my personal life, there were people that always 458 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: made an effort and she was one of them. And 459 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 2: so I just have this. I mean, like I said, 460 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: my heart just always turns into a bear hug when 461 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,719 Speaker 2: I think of her, like I just want to I 462 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 2: just want to give her a hug. And I wish 463 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: that I had been older in my like I wish 464 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: I had known what I know now to be able 465 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: to just sometimes the people that feel prickly in your 466 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 2: life are actually the people that just need a big hug. 467 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 2: I know I needed a big hug. Yeah, and I 468 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 2: think maybe she did too, and I so, yeah, do 469 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: you think. 470 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: You'll ever have that conversation one day? Do you hope 471 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: to just kind of talking about everything you both were 472 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: going through. 473 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, We've had many conversations, and I think we'll probably 474 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: continue to as the years go on. There's so many 475 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 2: things that just constantly evolve. But I don't know if 476 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: I've ever actually told her that, So hopefully she'll appreciate. 477 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: That well, I would think. So it's a very interesting 478 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: to say, for sure. Yeah, Joy, there are so many 479 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: things swirling about about a reboot right, and everybody lives 480 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: in of nostalgia and it's so wild to me that 481 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: you created something that literally like helped people have joy, 482 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: you know, pun intended in their own lives when you 483 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: were going through something so wild in your life. You 484 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: let this relationship, this character, this freedom, this joy, this 485 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: piece of pop culture with people that they still talk 486 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: about it. They still are like, oh my god, we 487 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: rewatch it over and over and over again. We're now 488 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: showing our teenagers we want to reboot. So there's a 489 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: lot being said about is a reboot happening, is it 490 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: not happening. You've expressed you would be down to do 491 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: it should that opportunity come about, and depending on what 492 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: that looks like, have there been any other conversations about that, 493 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: and do you really think this could happen because a 494 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: lot of people are holding on to hope. 495 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: Oh it's so sweet. I know. I hear both sides 496 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 2: of it. Like some people are like, no, just leave 497 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: it alone. It's perfect as it is, and then some 498 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 2: people are frothing at the bit like please please give 499 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: us more, which I love. I just love either way 500 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 2: how passionate fans are about what they went through with 501 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: us and how they feel about the future. But in 502 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: terms of actual information, I don't have anything new. There's 503 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: just been. I just I don't know what stage it's in. 504 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: I don't know who's really involved. I don't know almost 505 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: anything about it, so we just have to wait. Sorry. 506 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: I wish I had a better answer for you. 507 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: That's all right, and life were worth the wait, So yes, 508 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm gladly going to wait on that one. But I'm 509 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: so curious kind of jumping off of that and with 510 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: what you've gone through and the PTSD of maybe what 511 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: you experienced, I would imagine there was some level of 512 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: that in your healing journey as Yeah, do you ever 513 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: worry like if a reboot came around, would I have 514 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: a seat at the table or would I not be 515 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: invited because of what I went through and what people 516 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: remembered from my time on the show, Like does your 517 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: mind go there that you have to snap it out 518 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: of that? 519 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: No, because everyone was so generous. I think that was 520 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: one of the biggest surprises when I left the group, 521 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: and you know, I left after I had we had 522 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: wrapped in Wilmington, so I didn't go back to North Carolina, 523 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 2: And there are sometimes I wish I had left a 524 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: little bit sooner so that I could have gone back 525 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: and really invested in those relationships in a new and 526 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: meaningful way, but that just wasn't in the cards at 527 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 2: the time. I feel like everyone was so kind and 528 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: generous though in as I would start to leak out 529 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: this information, like yeah, actually I was in a really 530 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: bad situation and I got out. I was met not 531 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 2: with people saying I told you so, but people just 532 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: having big open arms and saying we're here, we love you, 533 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 2: We see who you are in spite of all of 534 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: the stuff that you were carrying. And there's good and 535 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: bad parts to everybody's personality character, we're all complex humans. 536 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: But to realize that people were actually able to see 537 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 2: through a lot of the superiority complex, the stubbornness, the youth, 538 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: stubborn youth that I was existing in and see like, no, 539 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: she's a person that's worth having around, just a person 540 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: that I still want to maintain a friendship with and 541 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: invest in in spite of all those things that really 542 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: blew me away. It was the most astonishing display of 543 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: grace that I've felt like I didn't deserve, and there 544 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: were a lot of people from the show that really 545 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: gave that to me, and it kind of makes me 546 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: emotional It makes me so happy. Like every time we 547 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: go back and do these conventions with whether in Wilmington 548 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: or Paris or wherever we get to go and all 549 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: get together as a group. I wish our crew was 550 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 2: with us too, But I have such fomo if we're 551 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: not together, I'm like, where's everybody going to dinner? What's happening? 552 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 2: I just want to know everything. I want to be 553 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: a part of it. Also, I don't miss anything else. 554 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: It's a wonderful group of people. 555 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Having that grace in life is something that I 556 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: think the whole world needs to have more of right now. 557 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: And when you go through something like that and you 558 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: realize how gentle and graceful people are with you, it 559 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: really makes you look at life, I imagine, in a 560 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: different perspective. So it's really cool to hear that the 561 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: cast was very much like that with you. And before 562 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: we move on to a part of this memoir that 563 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: I am going to read back to you because it 564 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: blew me away. Oh okay, yes I am. I have 565 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: a very big problem in media when people try to 566 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: pin people against each other. So I want to take 567 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: a quick second and say, I just heard you want 568 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: call your daddy you brought up the rumors, speculator, the 569 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: rumors around you and Hillary. You very graciously said you're 570 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: working some things out, you hope to work them out, 571 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: and that's that. But now I'm seeing online there are 572 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: things coming out like if there's a reboot, you might 573 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: not be a part of it because of whatever that is. 574 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: And I just want to put this out there because 575 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: I feel like my job as an interviewer is to 576 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: not encourage our behavior because it's bullshit and I don't 577 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 1: like when women get pinned against each other. I think 578 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: it's disgusting and it's gross and it gives people a 579 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: bad name who are in this business. So from your perspective, 580 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: like you don't believe that would be true, whatever's going 581 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: on there would not affect your involvement in a potential reboot. 582 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 2: So crazy to me, all of this. I love Hillary. 583 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: I have no ill will toward her. I have no 584 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 2: like I would never want to go back to a 585 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: One Tree Hill reboot with animosity, like that's just that's 586 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: not who either of us are. So yeah, and I 587 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: agree with you, it's not helpful. It's not helpful, particularly 588 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: because actually the irony of the fact that I am 589 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: trying to tell people a story about what happens in 590 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: group triangulation when other people come in and they start 591 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: taking somebody's words and taking another person's words and trying 592 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: to create something that's not there, and gaslighting and all 593 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 2: of these things. And everybody is like, Okay, we love 594 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: your book, but also like, can you please tell us 595 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: what's happening with Hillary? Just like this is crazy to me. 596 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: Do you understand that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about? 597 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: This triangulation is so not helpful. 598 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: This is me off. That's why I would never sit 599 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: here and say, oh, tell me, I don't care, it's 600 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: not my lin. 601 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I appreciate that. 602 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: The point is like, I don't want people running with 603 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 1: the story that that's affecting whatever that project is. So 604 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: thank you for clarity. 605 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: We're going to run with things all the time. 606 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: Well, this is me off. I'm a Jersey brilliant woman. 607 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean, come on, 608 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 2: we're gonna have sometime great may let's talk about this 609 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: all right. 610 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: Well that's good to know because we're all rooting for 611 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: that reboot to happen, and we all of course want you, 612 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: and there's in my opinion, no reboot without you. 613 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: So oh thanks. 614 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: Anyway, back to the cult. That's for a transition. 615 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: No, it's good. It is a good segue because what 616 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: we were just talking about, you know, there's like people 617 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: people getting involved in other people's relationships. 618 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: So yes, yes, yes, Well the Cult took I think 619 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: two million dollars from you, if not more. And there's 620 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: a moment in your memoir where you're sitting in the 621 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: bank and you have a really gracious teller trying to 622 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: help you sort this out, and that moment comes to mind, 623 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, comes to fruition, and you were just kind 624 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: of like, wait what and this is what you wrote. 625 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: I highlighted this because it was so wait can you see. 626 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: It where it's whoa, oh my gosh. 627 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: Oh I'm someone that like mark books and you. 628 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 2: Don't even know what that does to me seeing my 629 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: book in someone's hands, the way that I mark up 630 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: and write on books. This is a really really amazing moment. 631 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: Wow, that's crazy. My husband's like, oh, I want to 632 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: read it. I'm like, don't mind, mom on notes now, 633 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: I'll send it one perfect okay, But this is what 634 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: you said and that moment finding out that two million 635 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: dollars was gone in that bank. What a waste of space. 636 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: I was, a waste of talent, of time I had 637 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: thrown away what little spare time I had chasing a 638 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: god I was now not even sure existed, enduring years 639 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: of abuse with a pathetic cult of selfish people, and 640 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: living in a place where every dream I had went 641 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: to die. Oh yeah, Wow, that moment for you must 642 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: have been what I imagine is one of the hardest 643 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: moments you've ever faced in your life. 644 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, Just the depth self loathing, the realization crashing 645 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: down of like, I have wasted so much time. I 646 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 2: cannot believe that I had so much at my feet. 647 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 2: I had so much opportunity. And I'm not saying to 648 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: build myself up. I had opportunity to participate in the world, 649 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 2: in the communities that I was in, participate in art 650 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: and storytelling, to be able to learn and listen. And 651 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 2: these key years, especially in your twenties, when you are 652 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 2: gathering up so much around you that you're going to 653 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: we're like little beavers. We're gathering all the things and 654 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 2: we're building. We're building the dam of our character and 655 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 2: our personality and like, who are we going to be? 656 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: And I was siphoning those things off of an environment 657 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: that was a mirage. It's just it was really, really devastating, 658 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: and I just hated myself. 659 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: Are you at a place in your life where you 660 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: no longer beat yourself up for mistakes that were made 661 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: in the past or for things you wish you did differently, 662 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: Because that's a moment that I just read where that 663 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: person really truly seems like she hated herself. And we 664 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: all go through things in our lives where we might 665 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 1: feel like that. I certainly have had my own journey 666 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: specifically related to my sexualities, so we all have our things. 667 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: But are you able to not beat yourself up over 668 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: your experience? Now? 669 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: I have fundamental neural wiring that I am trying to 670 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:47,439 Speaker 2: grow new pathways where I don't beat myself up as 671 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: a default for everything. However, in terms of flogging myself 672 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 2: for my past in this story and everything that you 673 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: read and seen that I walked through, I have come 674 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: to peace with almost everything in that book there is. 675 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 2: I don't feel angry. I don't there are very few 676 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 2: moments where I feel like I missed out on something 677 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: and That's also hugely because I've found a place in 678 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 2: my spiritual journey to be able to release the shame 679 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: by talking about it, by sharing, by forgiving myself one 680 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: day at a time. So there's new things all the 681 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 2: time that I beat myself up about and have days 682 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 2: when I'm just like, you're such a fucking idiot, Oh 683 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 2: my god, why did you say that? Why did you 684 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 2: do that? And I'm trying to relearn that behavioral pattern. 685 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 2: I don't really know where it originated or why I 686 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: do that, but I'm working on it. But it's not 687 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 2: necessarily now related to that time in my past. 688 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: Well that's good to hear. We're all works in progress, right, 689 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: We're never going to be perfect. But to know that 690 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: you're not the person in that moment anymore and you're 691 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: not going to be so hard on yourself, I think 692 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: is a huge step in the right direction. And also 693 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: by even releasing this memoir, there's a moment towards the 694 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: end of the book where what you said changed everything 695 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: for me. And as I mentioned when I first met 696 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: you in the beginning of this interview, being someone who 697 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: maybe thought a certain way or the thought crossed my mind, 698 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: not that I ever thought so deeply about it. But 699 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, the thoughts that I mentioned earlier to cross 700 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: my mind. What you said at the end to a 701 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: former friend at a party about is a woman in 702 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: an abusive relationship who doesn't leave stupid And I'm paraphrasing there. 703 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. 704 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: To put it in that context, in that perspective, and 705 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: to equate being in a cult and dealing with the 706 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: type of behavior that you were receiving as abusive, right, 707 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: and abuse exists in many forms, was really this oh 708 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: my god moment where I thought, holy shit, Yeah, yeah, 709 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: it is the same. It is the same. You would 710 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: never say that about a woman who was going through that, 711 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: and why should you think that about someone going through 712 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 1: what you went through? And I really think that sets 713 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: it up in a very important and powerful way. 714 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: Oh thank you, gosh, that's so great to hear that 715 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 2: it hit you that way and came through I'm so glad. Yeah. 716 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: I don't know what to say except that that's when 717 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 2: I realized that the word cult was not admissible in 718 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 2: court because it's not definable. The closest definition that a 719 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 2: courtroom will accept is high demand group, which has its 720 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: own sort of checklist of whether, and different judges may 721 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 2: deem it differently, whether it was qualified, whether something qualifies 722 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 2: as a high demand group. Some may say any church does, 723 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: and some may say only the most extreme where there's 724 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 2: physical violence happening. And so there's this very strange, undefinable 725 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 2: space that the word cult or high demand group lives in. 726 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 2: But one thing that I think really is definable is 727 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 2: community abuse, community manipulation when there's a top down trickle, 728 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 2: and that could be in a workplace, that could be 729 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: in a religious environment, that could be at a gym, 730 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: like there's so many different places where you could find that. 731 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: But the function, because it's from top down, the function 732 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 2: of it is the same in a romantic partnership abusive 733 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 2: relationship because the personality disorder that causes the ripple effect 734 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: is the same. So whether that personality is more attracted 735 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 2: to controlling a group of people or more attracted to 736 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: controlling one person, that's a variant, but the actual malignant 737 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 2: narcissism is the same. And so the people who get 738 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 2: caught up in it, whether it's a singular person caught 739 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 2: in the partnership or a group of people, they're all 740 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 2: singular people caught up in a version of a partnership. 741 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 2: It's just with one person at the top and then 742 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 2: with other people on the side. It actually, I think 743 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 2: narcissists prey on intelligent empaths. So the chance is that 744 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,399 Speaker 2: you are a really intelligent person who's not stupid, who's 745 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 2: not weak, and then got caught up in something like 746 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 2: this are higher. If that makes sense. I kind of 747 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 2: feel like I'm turning my sentence upside down, But it 748 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 2: would make sense for you to be attracted to someone 749 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: with a narcissistic personality. If you're an intelligent EmPATH, that 750 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 2: doesn't make you stupid or weak or crazy. It's just 751 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,479 Speaker 2: is how the personality disorder works, one hundred percent. 752 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't make you stupid, weak, or crazy. Bears repeating, 753 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: because we need to erase that sort of judgment period. 754 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: And I think it was a really important point that 755 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: you made. Now, is your relation, like with God, whatever 756 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: that means to you, has that been rebuilt for you? 757 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: Has it been changed? What is it? 758 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 2: I mean, is anyone's relationship with God definable? I can 759 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 2: say that it's the most authentic relationship with God that 760 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 2: I've ever had because I feel so much more safe 761 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 2: and loved. Now that I've accepted that I can't do 762 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 2: anything to earn that love. Now I feel like, Okay, 763 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: I'm safe to make mistakes. I'm because you're going to 764 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 2: turn it into something good. It doesn't mean I'm going 765 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 2: to run around trying to do stupid things, obviously, But 766 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: I don't feel the sense of anxiety around decision making 767 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 2: that I used to when I didn't trust myself and 768 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: thought I needed somebody else to tell me how to 769 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 2: live my life. I don't feel like I have to 770 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 2: hit all the points on the checklist of whatever, any group, 771 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 2: any religion, anything is telling me I need to do 772 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 2: in order to earn my way into God's favor. I've 773 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: experienced too much to believe that that's the way that 774 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 2: it's meant to be. I don't think that works for anyone. 775 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 2: I really don't, and I know I guess it can 776 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 2: be kind of polarizing to say like I have some 777 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 2: existential answer. But I've never met anybody who is really 778 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 2: satisfied by living everything off the checklist, who really feels 779 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 2: like they're seen and known and loved. That just feels 780 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 2: like earning to me. So I don't have all the answers. 781 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: But I do have a much more authentic relationship with 782 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 2: God than I ever did. I feel more free And what. 783 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: A beautiful feeling that must be. Yeah, Oh, I love 784 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 1: hearing that. It's so nice to see when someone comes 785 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: out of something so traumatizing and still has such a 786 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: beautiful sense of hope. And I think that's really a 787 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: really important message as well to put out there. 788 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 2: Joy. 789 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: The name of this show is I've never said this before. 790 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: I know, I'm trying to think as we were, oh, 791 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: you know what's coming as we wrap up. I feel 792 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 1: like I've been so open already in this whole conversation. 793 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: But in the spirit of the show name, is there 794 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: anything you can think of whatever that question means to you, 795 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: no right or wrong answer that you've never said before 796 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: that you want to share today. 797 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 2: This is so hard for me because I I mean, honestly, 798 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 2: this is one of the biggest missions in my just 799 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: in my own personal life. Once I left this group 800 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 2: and started realizing how much shame was isolating me, I 801 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 2: started to just talk about it and say things, and 802 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 2: I just I'm like, a, you can't shut me up, 803 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 2: Like I just want to say all the things so 804 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 2: that it doesn't get locked in my own body. Obviously, 805 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 2: you know I'm not. I'm not trying to un to 806 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 2: give everybody every piece of information ever, But you know, 807 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 2: I just want to be open and honest. I want 808 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,840 Speaker 2: to live that kind of a life. So I don't 809 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,839 Speaker 2: know what I would have never said. I say all 810 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 2: the bad words. Now I say, I say I love 811 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 2: you to all the people. Gosh, I wonder, I bet 812 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 2: there's something like I haven't ever said to my parents. 813 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 2: Maybe like I'm still scared of having vulnerable conversations with 814 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 2: my parents. Hmmm. Like it's just I'm scared of emotion. 815 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 2: I'm trying, I'm working on it, but like being in 816 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 2: front of people, it's the same thing that I talk 817 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 2: about in the beginning of the book, like, oh my god, 818 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 2: I'm crying in front of a whole bunch of people. 819 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 2: This is terrifying. I still feel that. And when I'm 820 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 2: with somebody that I really care about and I start crying, 821 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 2: I feel all kinds of uncomfortable things that I don't 822 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 2: know how to deal with. I don't know if I've 823 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 2: ever just flat outside to my parents and I'm sorry 824 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 2: for what I put you through in those ten years 825 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 2: I think we've danced around versions of that, but I 826 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 2: don't think i've ever just flat out said that. So Mom, Dad, 827 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry for what I put you through for 828 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:20,399 Speaker 2: the last well those those ten years that's been. It's 829 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 2: been a while out of it now, but yeah, and 830 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 2: thank you for sticking by me and for your patience 831 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 2: and grace. 832 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I hope you send this to them because 833 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: that really that really is it? 834 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:36,280 Speaker 2: Colum? 835 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope you do that too. But that's 836 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: that's a beautiful thing to share and share it so publicly, 837 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: and I think we always have things we wish we 838 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: said to parents or whoever that we haven't, So thank 839 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: you for sharing that, and thank you for being open. 840 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's still probably a lot for you, 841 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: So I hope you feel good with this conversation and 842 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:57,280 Speaker 1: then sharing. 843 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 2: You're lovely. I really enjoyed talking with you, and thank 844 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:05,320 Speaker 2: you for actually really diving into the book and taking 845 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 2: so much out of it and being able to communicate 846 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 2: really intelligently about it emotional intelligence as well. You're so 847 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 2: well prepared and just easy to talk to and so positive, 848 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 2: like this was really really nice experience. Thank you so much. 849 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you, thank you, and on our way out. Yeah, 850 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: because I'm a theater loving boy. Oh yes, I'm here. 851 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 2: Why were we talking about that for the last hour. 852 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,320 Speaker 1: I allow you two more hours, and I got to 853 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: get you out the door. You have somewhere to be. 854 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: But I know that you are offered bell right in 855 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: be and the Beast, and you turn that down because 856 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: of the cult. So let's do a little manifesting moment 857 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: right here. Oh if even theater is something still on 858 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: your radar? Yeah, what would be one or two or 859 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: three rolls or shows that you would want to be 860 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: a part of on Broadway? Oh my gosh, whether it's 861 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:57,799 Speaker 1: out now or not. 862 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 2: Think Haitiestown would be a ball. I don't know if 863 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 2: I could grunge my voice up enough like the Amber, 864 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:11,760 Speaker 2: but I would love to try. And Satine. I had 865 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 2: one of the worst auditions of my life for Satine. 866 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 2: It was really comical. It was like a producer session 867 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,239 Speaker 2: and I just totally choked, Like I did super well 868 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 2: in the music session with the producer ahead of time, 869 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 2: and it was like things were looking really good for me, 870 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 2: and there were like six girls that were going back. 871 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 2: It was replacing Karen for a Broadway and then they 872 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 2: were doing the West End cast and all this and 873 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,479 Speaker 2: uh oh, man, I don't know what happened. I walked 874 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 2: in that room and my brain just went too fast 875 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 2: and my mouth slowed down and I couldn't I couldn't 876 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 2: do it. I totally choked. But then Courtney, Uh oh, shoot, 877 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,240 Speaker 2: what's her last name? I know her? It was Courtney 878 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 2: because I know her through a friend. So we met 879 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 2: and she was just Courtney to me. But anyway, she's 880 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 2: the girl that did Aladdin, er Jasmine and Aladdin, and 881 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 2: she got Satina. She's doing fabulous job. But yeah, I 882 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 2: would really enjoy that. I think that would be a 883 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 2: really fun role if I could have another chance to 884 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 2: not completely fuck it up. 885 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: That was all right, Well we put it out there 886 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,600 Speaker 1: so broadby producers. I hope you listening. Let's go, let's 887 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: do it. Let's do it. Joy, thank you again. I 888 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: had so much fun hanging out with you. Your memoir 889 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 1: is out right now. Everybody can go order it. Best 890 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: place to order it. 891 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 2: Oh, you can do Amazon, you can do Barnes and Noble. Yeah. 892 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 2: I don't know how all the rigamarole works with like 893 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 2: numbers and sales from particular avenues and stuff, but I 894 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 2: would just say go, yeah, go grab it on Amazon 895 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:42,720 Speaker 2: or at Barnes and Noble. 896 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: Dinner for Vampire is out now. Thank you, my friend. 897 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: I hope you can do that again. This was lovely, 898 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:51,239 Speaker 1: It really was. 899 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,839 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you. 900 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Didario. 901 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,720 Speaker 1: This podcast is executive produced by Andrew Piblisi at iHeartRadio 902 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: and by me Tommy, with editing by Joshua Colaudney. I've 903 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Duran 904 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 1: podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate review and 905 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode, 906 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.