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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Nearly twenty years ago, Grammy Award winning producer Timbaland got

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Speaker 2: in the studio and made a song that would go

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Speaker 2: on to become one of his most iconic from clubs

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Speaker 2: and wedding receptions to Bob mitzvahs and everything in between.

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Speaker 2: If you were alive in two thousand and seven, you

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Speaker 2: couldn't escape its hypnotic.

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Speaker 1: Beat, unique.

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Speaker 2: De'spadiation right that song, The Way I Are, would peak

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Speaker 2: at number three on the Billboard Hot one hundred chart.

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Speaker 2: Critics were into it. That memorable synth line felt like

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Speaker 2: a peek into the future. When I talked to Timbaland

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Speaker 2: earlier this month, he told me he's always tried to

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Speaker 2: embrace new technology in his music production. For The Way

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Speaker 2: I Are, he and his team experimented with mix effects

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Speaker 2: and synthesizers.

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Speaker 1: I just felt and I'm like, ooh, that's a dope pattern.

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Speaker 1: So it's steal my taste.

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Speaker 2: Timberland made that song in his thirties. He's fifty two. Today.

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Speaker 2: A lot's changed in music production. Sense. New tools have

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Speaker 2: introduced new questions about how the over twenty eight billion

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Speaker 2: dollar reported music industry makes its core product and artists,

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Speaker 2: whether they're making songs in their bedrooms or at a

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Speaker 2: big time music studio, have had to grapple with those shifts. Today,

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Speaker 2: Timberland is an outspoken advocate for the tech that he

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Speaker 2: thinks is going to most change the music industry next AI.

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Speaker 1: I look at it as an amazing too that I

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Speaker 1: wish it was available in my early twenties or thirties.

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Speaker 2: Timberland says that AI tools help him focus on being

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Speaker 2: a better artist, and that at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: he's the one pulling the levers, the one with the vision.

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Speaker 2: But as AI changes the way music is made, labels, artists,

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Speaker 2: and listeners are left wondering who stands to benefit from

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Speaker 2: these tools and who has the most to lose. Today,

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Speaker 2: on the show how AI broke through in the music industry,

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Speaker 2: the sticky questions it raises, and where it could be

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Speaker 2: headed Next, this is the big take from Bloomberg News.

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Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Holberg. Ashley Carmen covers all things audio for Bloomberg,

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Speaker 2: and she says, right now, there are three major ways

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Speaker 2: AI is starting to show up in the industry. The

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Speaker 2: first is the most obvious and perhaps the most controversial

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Speaker 2: generative AI.

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Speaker 3: I think AI was bubbling up for a while. Real

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Speaker 3: prognosticators in the space sat coming and they were like, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is going to be something where you can generate

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Speaker 3: a song at the top of a button, and this

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Speaker 3: is going to eliminate the need for commercial libraries. For example,

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Speaker 3: you know the background music you hear on Netflix, or

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Speaker 3: you license maybe catalog of songs and you can just

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Speaker 3: use them royalty free for eternity. But then I think

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Speaker 3: what started to really bubble up was more of these

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Speaker 3: use cases where yes, you could generate a song at

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Speaker 3: the top of a button, but actually maybe you're going

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Speaker 3: to use it in a way that is going to

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Speaker 3: allow you to either use someone's likeness to get some

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Speaker 3: attention for your song. You're going to distribute that song

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Speaker 3: on streaming services and try to get streams.

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Speaker 2: When you say someone's likeness their musical likeness, or their

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Speaker 2: physical likeness, voice.

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Speaker 3: Musical stylings, sound essentially. So that's kind of more of

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Speaker 3: the side where you see the labels and other rights

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Speaker 3: holders kind of racking their heads about this, like what

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Speaker 3: are we going to do.

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Speaker 2: One of the more high profile cases of this came

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, when an anonymous creator released a

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Speaker 2: hip hop track called Heart on My Sleeve. It was

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Speaker 2: generated using AI, but you can hear how it's designed

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Speaker 2: to sound a lot like the artist Drake.

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Speaker 3: I can my eggs, and the song sounded like Drake

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Speaker 3: and Weekend had collaborated. And when it came out, I

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Speaker 3: think there was all this speculation like, is this a

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Speaker 3: real song from Drake in the Weekend, Like we didn't

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Speaker 3: know it was coming. It's a surprise drop. Certainly sounds

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Speaker 3: like them. Eventually, when it was realized that it's an

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Speaker 3: AI song, that just kind of started this whole conversation

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Speaker 3: around AI in the music business because Drake and The

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Speaker 3: Weekend are both signed to Republic, which is owned by

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Speaker 3: Universal Music Group. Universal Music Group very much vocally said

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Speaker 3: we're concerned about AI. We don't want AI songs to

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Speaker 3: overwhelm the streaming services and essentially take market share away

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Speaker 3: from human artists.

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Speaker 2: The song went viral, it even looked like it was

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Speaker 2: on track to chart, but then it started disappearing from

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Speaker 2: streaming platforms one by one. UMG wouldn't comment on it directly,

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Speaker 2: but it issued a statement saying that training generative AI

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Speaker 2: on music from their artists violated copyright law and that

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Speaker 2: music platforms have a quote fundamental legal and ethical response

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Speaker 2: ability to prevent the use of their services in ways

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Speaker 2: that harm artists unquote, But some artists are embracing AI

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Speaker 2: generated music. Just a week after Hard on My Sleeve

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Speaker 2: was released, the singer songwriter Grimes, who's been a vocal

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Speaker 2: proponent of AI for years, invited fans to make music

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Speaker 2: using AI versions of her voice, but she asked them

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Speaker 2: to register the music on her website so they could

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Speaker 2: split royalties fifty to fifty. It was an example of

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Speaker 2: the conflicting ways different players in the industry feel about

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Speaker 2: AI and how fast those perspectives are evolving. Fresh off

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Speaker 2: the copyright controversy around Hard on My Sleeve, UMG has

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Speaker 2: also been promoting what the company sees as more responsible

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Speaker 2: uses of the tech.

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Speaker 4: Twenty twenty four was a really big year for AI.

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Speaker 2: Ashley spoke to Michael Nash, who's the executive vice president

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Speaker 2: and chief Digital officer at UMG, about the second main

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Speaker 2: way AI is being used in music production, behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes to up recordings and in the studio by engineers

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Speaker 2: who mix and master work. He told her about how

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Speaker 2: UMG revived old music by the Beatles, a band the

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Speaker 2: label represents and whose members aren't all alive, to re

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Speaker 2: record the.

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Speaker 4: Story there is recordings in nineteen seventy seven by John

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Speaker 4: Lennon were used to produce some singles in the nineties,

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Speaker 4: but there was one track now and then which wasn't

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Speaker 4: possible to use because the piano part was like kind

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Speaker 4: of banging over the vocal and becoming intermingled in a

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Speaker 4: way that the vocal track was not previously usable.

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Speaker 3: They used AI to extract John Lennon's vocals from this

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Speaker 3: old recording that they had and essentially make it sound

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Speaker 3: really nice and use it in the song.

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Speaker 4: So no part of that vocal was AI generated, but

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Speaker 4: it was AI excavated.

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Speaker 3: It's now now needed for a Grammy.

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Speaker 2: Michael told Ashley that UMG is also interested in exploring

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Speaker 2: another type of a music product. The third category of

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Speaker 2: AI material that's cropping up in the industry content tailored

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Speaker 2: to a specific listener.

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Speaker 4: There's an interesting component around hyper personalization, where the consumer

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Speaker 4: can use the AI technology to customize the music listening experience.

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Speaker 2: Sony Music Entertainment, one of UMG's competitors, tried this last fall,

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Speaker 2: the company worked with David Gilmour from Pink Floyd to

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Speaker 2: offer fans a personalized AI track and artwork remixed from

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Speaker 2: portions of the album.

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Speaker 3: So the idea really was, you're a fan, you want

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Speaker 3: a special experience. You want to feel like you really

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Speaker 3: own that album in a different way than anyone else,

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Speaker 3: So you would get customized artwork based on your prompts

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Speaker 3: as well as a song.

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Speaker 2: But whether there's consumer demand for this is another question entirely.

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Speaker 2: Right now, the industry is in the spaghetti at the

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Speaker 2: wall phase of AI, trying things out, seeing what sticks,

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Speaker 2: and making case by case to decisions about what feels

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Speaker 2: ethical coming up after the break, How companies like UNNG

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Speaker 2: and musicians like Timbaland draw those lines and the legal

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Speaker 2: battles that could define them more clearly. If you ask Timbaland,

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Speaker 2: AI is just like any technology he'd use to help

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Speaker 2: him make music, but more powerful, and he's been leaning

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Speaker 2: into it. In October, he announced a partnership with Suno,

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Speaker 2: an AI music generation tool.

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Speaker 1: He's like going to the record store picking out samples,

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Speaker 1: and when you get that right sample or that right record,

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Speaker 1: it allows you to get more creative.

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Speaker 2: But Suno also lets users create whole songs. You just

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Speaker 2: put in keywords, click a button, and generate a track.

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Speaker 2: To understand how tools like Suno really work. Ashley and

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Speaker 2: I gave it a test drive ourselves. Have you tried

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Speaker 2: this before?

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Speaker 3: No, let's do it? Okay?

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Speaker 2: What should we make a song about?

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Speaker 3: Should we try to do? Like a Christmas song?

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Speaker 2: Definitely a Christmas song about New York and the beach,

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Speaker 2: because I wish I was at the beach in the.

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Speaker 3: Style of Mariah Carey.

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Speaker 2: Mariah Carey, create a song. I'm so excited. In just

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Speaker 2: a few seconds we had our custom song New York.

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Speaker 3: Noelle, Okay, let's play. It doesn't sound like Mariah Carey

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 2: Christmas Tree, Sandy Grain. Christmas Tree is so bold and pretty,

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Speaker 2: but I'm dreaming of Sandy Grains. It should be playing

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Speaker 2: in the elevator.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly the thing. Like could this past for elevator

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Speaker 3: music or podcast music?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Like background music. I don't know. I want to believe

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Speaker 3: that between the two of us we could write better

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Speaker 3: lyrics for a Christmas song. I want to believe that,

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Speaker 3: but I haven't actually tried. Definitely, wouldn't say Sandy Green.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have never thought that sentence in my entire life.

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Speaker 2: The way Timbaland describes how he uses technology like Suno

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Speaker 2: is pretty different. He told me it would be hard

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Speaker 2: to just auto generate a hit. That making music is

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Speaker 2: still about a person's own creativity, something AI can only amplify.

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Speaker 1: I don't like to say the word train, but it

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Speaker 1: is like a training. I'm transferring energies to a machine.

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Speaker 2: So do you have any concern that other artists might

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Speaker 2: use Suno or a tool like it and recreate the

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Speaker 2: Timbaland sound?

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Speaker 1: Just never going to give you me unless you know

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Speaker 1: how I think you know everybody tastes ain't great. You

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Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, That people are making stuff that

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Speaker 1: they like to make music, but it ain't good music.

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Speaker 2: But UMG and two other major record labels have a

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Speaker 2: deeper concern with the way Suno works. They've sued the

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Speaker 2: company and a similar one called Udio, accusing them of

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Speaker 2: training their software on cop be writed materials. Suno and

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Speaker 2: Udio have argued that what they're doing is covered by

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Speaker 2: fair use, that they're allowed to use copyrighted material when

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Speaker 2: developing technology that creates what are sometimes called quote non

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Speaker 2: infringing new works in a court filing, Suno wrote, like

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Speaker 2: a human musician, Suno did not develop its capabilities in

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Speaker 2: a vacuum. It is the product of extensive analysis and

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Speaker 2: study of the building blocks of music. The lawsuits are

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Speaker 2: still ongoing.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, we're just waiting for the courts to decide.

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Speaker 2: While they wait, UMG has started to make its own

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Speaker 2: judgments about what it deems ethical use of generative AI.

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Speaker 2: One example came this holiday season when the label released

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Speaker 2: a new version of a Christmas song originally recorded in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight.

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Speaker 3: So Brenda Lee's famous song Rocking around the Christmas Tree.

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Speaker 3: We all certainly know it. They used AI to essentially

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Speaker 3: train on her voice as a young teenager and record

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Speaker 3: the song that sounds like her in Spanish.

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Speaker 4: Brand Lee's vocals were used as the training set to

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Speaker 4: develop a vocal model, and then a Spanish language performance

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Speaker 4: by an artist that was in the right vocal range

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Speaker 4: for a match that provide a guide track, and then

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Speaker 4: in the production studio, by merging the guide track with

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Speaker 4: the AI voice clone, Wila, you have Brenda Lee performing

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Speaker 4: Rocking around the Christmas Tree in Spanish for the first time.

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Speaker 3: She's an eighty year old woman. This is not her

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Speaker 3: singing today. She did give her permission. They did this

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Speaker 3: with her approval, but it is certainly her younger voice

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Speaker 3: singing in Spanish.

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Speaker 2: To UMG, what's the difference between Heart on My Sleeve

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Speaker 2: and AI generated AI assisted songs that they put out

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Speaker 2: this year? What's the key distinction there in their mind?

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Speaker 3: UMG says they did not provide the permissions to release

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Speaker 3: that song to train on Drake's voice or the Weekend's voice,

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Speaker 3: that this had to have been trained on their copyrighted material,

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Speaker 3: so therefore they do not approve.

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Speaker 2: But for some artists and companies, the fears around AI

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Speaker 2: go beyond copyright concerns and their fears that pre date

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Speaker 2: AI too.

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Speaker 3: There's kind of these bigger issues around how do you

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Speaker 3: make money as a musician, as an artist, as a producer,

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Speaker 3: how do I break through as an artist, how do

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Speaker 3: I actually make money from streaming? How do I affordably tour?

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Speaker 2: AI makes some of those questions more pressing. If streaming

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Speaker 2: platforms are flooded with AI generated tracks, for example, it

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Speaker 2: could get harder for artists to break through the noise

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Speaker 2: and get paid.

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Speaker 3: There's tons of tracks being uploaded a day. I think

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Speaker 3: it's over one hundred thousand at this point now a day.

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Speaker 3: The way streaming is paid out is out of a

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Speaker 3: pie basically, So if Taylor Swift accounts for fifty percent

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Speaker 3: of listening on Spotify, she gets fifty percent of the royalties.

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Speaker 3: So it's taking away that market share and that money

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Speaker 3: from legitimate arts.

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Speaker 2: Michael Nash from UMG says he doesn't believe a machine

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Speaker 2: will ever be able to mimic the artistry or the

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Speaker 2: emotion that goes into making a truly great song.

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Speaker 4: What fans really care about is the expression of human

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Speaker 4: artists telling their stories about you know, their lived experiences,

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Speaker 4: about people falling in love, about people having great friends,

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Speaker 4: about people having a wonderful time on a Saturday night.

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Speaker 4: That's what fans are really interested in. They're not interested

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Speaker 4: in knockoff derivative soundlike content.

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Speaker 2: Whether or not listeners actually connect with music that's been

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Speaker 2: touched by AI or even no AI was involved. The

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Speaker 2: genie is now out of the bottle, and even Timbaland

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Speaker 2: acknowledged that comes with trade offs. How might this have

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Speaker 2: changed your process working on some of your earlier songs,

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Speaker 2: Like would the way I are have sounded different if

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Speaker 2: I had.

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Speaker 1: Existed, You know that's funny. I think I think it

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Speaker 1: would have the same. It would just be the same

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Speaker 1: way I'm using it now. It would just be more

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Speaker 1: helpful and we would have put out way more music.

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Speaker 1: The process has been way more faster. The reason why

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that it wasn't back in because it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: allow me to collaborate with people. If it was available

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Speaker 1: backed in, it would have been like me in the machine.

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Speaker 2: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder.

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Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Julia Press. It was edited

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Speaker 2: by Aaron Edwards, Felix Gillette, and Dana Walman. It was

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Speaker 2: mixed and sound designed by Alex Uguerira. It was fact

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Speaker 2: checked by Audreyanna Tapia. Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven.

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Speaker 2: Our senior editor as Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is

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Speaker 2: Nicole Beamsterboord Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. If

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Speaker 2: you liked this episode, make sure to subscribe and review

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Speaker 2: The Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps

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Speaker 2: people find the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back

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Speaker 2: on Thursday.

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Speaker 4: Hmm.