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Speaker 1: Originals. This is an iHeart original.

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Speaker 2: This story can be hard to hear. There's detailed talk

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Speaker 2: of suicide and violence, but we think it's important not

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Speaker 2: to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell.

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Speaker 2: Please take care while listening. So what age was Libby

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Speaker 2: when you moved into this though?

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Speaker 3: She was in fourth grade and her and Natalie just

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Speaker 3: had chicken pox together when we moved here. Libby had

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Speaker 3: it worse than Natalie. It was in her ears and

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Speaker 3: in her mouth and on her eyelids. I mean this everywhere.

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Speaker 4: So small story, and I guess fair.

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Speaker 2: I'm here in Independence, Missouri, standing in the living room

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Speaker 2: of the small tidy house that Libby grew up in.

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Speaker 2: I came here to immerse myself in Libby's physical world,

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Speaker 2: to meet the people who loved her, and to see

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Speaker 2: for myself the places she lived, because often those physical

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Speaker 2: spaces tell stories that people.

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Speaker 1: Can't or won't.

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Speaker 2: Libby's mom, Cindy, and sister Natalie are showing me around

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Speaker 2: and sharing stories about the family through the years. There

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Speaker 2: are photos of Libby everywhere, faded childhood prints, pictures of

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Speaker 2: her and her son, and blown up portraits from a

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Speaker 2: modeling shoot she did in her teens. Her family told

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Speaker 2: me Libby loved the camera.

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Speaker 3: She just posed and wanted to be in pictures all

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Speaker 3: her life. In her son.

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Speaker 2: Blind, they take me into the kitchen, where the family

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Speaker 2: would often spend time together.

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Speaker 3: She was a pretty good cook. She really taught me

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Speaker 3: on fried chicken. She could really cook some fried chicken.

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Speaker 3: I was like, wow, you've outdone mom.

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Speaker 2: But mostly we stand outside Libby's old bedroom and talk.

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Speaker 5: She always painted it some really weird colors. When we

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Speaker 5: first moved in, I painted my room pink, and she

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Speaker 5: painted hers like really bright lime green with a really

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Speaker 5: dark green trim, and it was horrible. And then she

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Speaker 5: had these big like flower stamps all over it. And

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Speaker 5: then she'd change into like red and THENTO gold and

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Speaker 5: it was like her little space. And she wouldn't let

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Speaker 5: me in most of the time i'd have she'd make

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Speaker 5: me knock, and then even then a lot of times

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Speaker 5: she told me to go away.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes, though Libby relented and let Natalie in. The sisters

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Speaker 2: would watch scary movies in bed, dance around to music.

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Speaker 5: She would sit in front of her mirror and watch

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Speaker 5: herself sing, and I always would tease her and stuff

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Speaker 5: for being attitude or whatever, and she would didn't care.

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Speaker 5: She would just stare at herself in the mirror and

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Speaker 5: have like a big brush in her hand or something,

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Speaker 5: pretending to sing really loud. She was so funny.

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Speaker 2: As a child, Libby's room was her own private sanctuary,

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Speaker 2: but as a teenager, it became a place where she

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Speaker 2: and her boyfriend Devin retreated to together.

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Speaker 5: I never really knew what was going on because they

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Speaker 5: just kind of locked themselves.

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Speaker 2: In there, whether they were sequestered in her bedroom or

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Speaker 2: just home alone. No one saw what Libby and Devon

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Speaker 2: were up to. But her family did start to notice

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Speaker 2: that little things were different around the house, and not

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Speaker 2: in a good way.

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Speaker 5: We'd come home sometimes when they air bolts here and

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Speaker 5: things would be broken. One time we came home and

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Speaker 5: we had the picture of Jesus Stanning on the wall

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Speaker 5: and it was completely shattered.

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Speaker 2: There was damage that often went unexplained, like a dent

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Speaker 2: in Libby's bedroom wall.

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Speaker 3: We were like, who put this hole here?

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Speaker 1: Who did this?

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Speaker 3: And everyone was like, we don't know.

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Speaker 2: I should be clear about my reporting history here. I'm

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Speaker 2: a journalist who covers violence against women, and I tend

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Speaker 2: to focus on a specific kind of violence, domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: which occurs between people in intimate relationships. Through my decade

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Speaker 2: of reporting, I've developed a keen eye and ear for

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Speaker 2: picking it up. But I can tell you that domestic

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Speaker 2: violence is by design difficult to see from the outside.

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Speaker 2: Both the abuser and the person being abused have compelling

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Speaker 2: reasons to hide what's going on. But hiding a secret

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Speaker 2: of this magnitude it's a lot of work, and as

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Speaker 2: is often the case with secrets, it tends to find

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Speaker 2: a way of making itself known in a bruise, peeking

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Speaker 2: out from a sleeve, a whispered admission to a friend,

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Speaker 2: an argument behind not so closed doors. Take that hole

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Speaker 2: that Cindy mentioned earlier. One day she comes home from

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Speaker 2: work and finds a hole in the wall of Libby's bedroom.

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Speaker 2: Whatever hit it dented the dry wall and splintered the

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Speaker 2: paint around it. I can tell you from my experience

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Speaker 2: in some homes, holes and walls are not innocent. They're

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Speaker 2: not mistakes or accidents. But Libby wouldn't tell her family

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Speaker 2: what had happened, and no one else had been in

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Speaker 2: the room, and so for a while, that's where Cindy's

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Speaker 2: story of the whole ended until I started interviewing Libby's

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Speaker 2: friends and the full picture began to emerge.

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Speaker 6: I remember it like it was yesterday. So her first

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Speaker 6: Mother's Day, she called me. I ended up shown up

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Speaker 6: over at her house and she used this in heres.

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Speaker 2: This is Holly, one of Libby's best friends. Libby may

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Speaker 2: not have confided in her mom or her sister about

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Speaker 2: what happened that day, but she did tell Holly.

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Speaker 6: She said that Devin had slammed her head up against

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Speaker 6: the wall and knocked her out and just left her

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Speaker 6: there unconscious.

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Speaker 3: She didn't never tell me of the extent of all

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Speaker 3: the things that happened. You know, I had to find

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Speaker 3: out after her death.

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Speaker 1: From iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what happened to Libby Caswell.

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Speaker 1: There's a fun through youin.

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Speaker 7: So what I actually probably the fact that I've never

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Speaker 7: put my name in his heart to the moment, and

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Speaker 7: I to stop her from hurting me. She's just been

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Speaker 7: happy with her. The medical examiner ruled Libby's death undetermined.

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Speaker 4: They go, what do you mean they undetermined?

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Speaker 5: It was just like he destroyed that safe space for

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Speaker 5: her in her room.

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Speaker 3: He rammed her head into the walls, hard enough to

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Speaker 3: put a dent in the wall the size of a

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Speaker 3: bowling ball, you know, And we never knew the explanation

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Speaker 3: because no one was home and no one knew.

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Speaker 2: Chapter three, Domestic Disturbance. Abusive relationships don't start with a

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Speaker 2: head slammed into a wall. They start, like most relationships do,

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Speaker 2: with flirtation and connection and excitement about what's to come.

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Speaker 2: Which is why I'm going to rewind six years before

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Speaker 2: Libby's body was found in a motel bathroom, six years

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Speaker 2: before her boyfriend became a suspect in her death, because

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Speaker 2: to get the full picture of Libby and Devon's relationship,

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Speaker 2: we have to start at the beginning. And at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: it was sweet.

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Speaker 4: Oh they were in love.

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Speaker 6: They were you know, young puppy love. It was always, oh, babe,

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Speaker 6: this babe bat Man had stupid nicknames that.

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Speaker 8: They'd call it.

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Speaker 2: The Libby's friend Holly introduced them freshman year.

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Speaker 6: Devin was in my math class. Liddy had said that

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Speaker 6: he was really cute before I knew that she was

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Speaker 6: interested in him. I was standing in the hallway with

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Speaker 6: Liddy one day and Devin walks past and I was like, oh, hey, Devin.

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Speaker 6: I was like, yeah, this is liddy, and then they

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Speaker 6: started dating. I want to say, maybe three weeks after that.

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Speaker 2: Libby's mom, Cindy, remembers meeting Devon in the beginning of

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Speaker 2: their courtship. Her first impression was that he was a

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Speaker 2: charismatic kid who attracted a lot of attention from the girls.

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Speaker 3: He reminded me of Justin Bieber. He had the long

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Speaker 3: bang and he was always like, you know, tossing his

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Speaker 3: head doing his bangs, and I thought, wow, he's really cute.

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Speaker 2: Natalie, Libby's little sister, would sometimes tag along with the

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Speaker 2: couple while they hung out.

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Speaker 5: They were just kind of like the perfect high school couple,

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Speaker 5: you know, the varsity cheerleader and the football player, and

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Speaker 5: they seemed to really be into each other. And he'd

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Speaker 5: come over and he was always really respectful at first,

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Speaker 5: and just seemed like he was kind of the perfect

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Speaker 5: boyfriend at the time for her.

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Speaker 2: But when Libby became pregnant at age sixteen, about a

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Speaker 2: year into their relationship, Natalie noticed a shift in how

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Speaker 2: Devin treated her.

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Speaker 5: He would playfully do something or accidentally do something to

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Speaker 5: make her really upset, and she would get upset, and

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Speaker 5: he would kind of just be like, why are you overreacting.

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Speaker 2: One of Natalie's most vivid memories is what she refers

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Speaker 2: to as the lighter incident.

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Speaker 5: They were downstairs in the basement and he had the

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Speaker 5: lighter and he was playing with the lighter and touching

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Speaker 5: it to her because the end of it was hot,

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Speaker 5: and thought it was funny and was laughing, and she

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Speaker 5: kept telling him to quit, and then he lit it

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Speaker 5: and touched it to her leg and whatever she was

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Speaker 5: wearing caught on fire. So she came upstairs just bawling,

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Speaker 5: and he was just like, I don't know, why are

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Speaker 5: you acting like that? She was clearly extremely upset, and

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Speaker 5: he had burned her clothes on her leg, and he

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Speaker 5: was just like thought it was funny and was trying

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Speaker 5: to just play it off like it.

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Speaker 8: Was a joke.

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Speaker 2: From Natalie's perspective, Devin was always pushing the limits with libby,

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Speaker 2: seeing what he could get away with before she'd get

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Speaker 2: angry or burst into tears, and the limits he pushed

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Speaker 2: could sometimes involve her physical body what she would and

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Speaker 2: would not tolerate.

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Speaker 5: It was just like little things like he would come

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Speaker 5: into her and bump her real hard or elbow her,

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Speaker 5: and then she'd get upset and he'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 5: I didn't mean to or I was just messing with

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Speaker 5: you kind of thing, and it just kind of escalated that,

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Speaker 5: like well, he would just do things all the time

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Speaker 5: like that.

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Speaker 2: Just a kid herself, Natalie wasn't sure what to make

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Speaker 2: of Devn's behavior. Maybe that's just how boys acted when

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Speaker 2: they really liked you.

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Speaker 5: They were really young, you know. I was really young too,

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Speaker 5: so I was just like, eh, they'll figure it out.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't the only one who noticed how Devin started

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Speaker 2: to treat Libby differently once she got pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Here's Holly again.

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Speaker 6: He just started acting real weird. It was like it

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Speaker 6: wasn't like Libby, like him and Libby were a couple anymore.

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Speaker 6: It was just like Livy was his What do you

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Speaker 6: mean that that? Like it was like an obsession kind

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Speaker 6: of thing, and you know, he could go out and

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Speaker 6: do whatever he wants, but she couldn't even come over

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Speaker 6: and hang out with me for you know, a couple

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Speaker 6: hours after she got done at school or on a weekend.

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Speaker 6: She wasn't allowed to do anything. At that point, he

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Speaker 6: and her were actually hanging out one night, and he

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Speaker 6: started like sending her threatening text and stuff. It wasn't

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Speaker 6: like outright like oh, hey, I'm going to be your ass.

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Speaker 6: It was like, oh, you'll see what happens. You'll see

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Speaker 6: what happens whenever I see you again, and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Over the course of Libby's pregnancy, the couple broke up repeatedly,

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Speaker 2: but each time they got back together Natalie again.

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Speaker 5: She would leave him for a little while, but she

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Speaker 5: was pregnant, so like things would come up where he'd

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Speaker 5: have to come or she'd want him to come to

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Speaker 5: like an appointment. I always told her, you need to

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Speaker 5: just like find someone else and move on, and he

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Speaker 5: can pay child sport or come visit him or something,

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Speaker 5: but you need to find someone else to treat you better.

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Speaker 5: But she wanted her family to be together, so she

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Speaker 5: always tried really hard for that to happen.

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Speaker 2: And Devin swore he wanted that too. I have a

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Speaker 2: handwritten letter, he wrote to Libby while she was pregnant, quote,

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Speaker 2: you and this baby are the two biggest blessings I've

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Speaker 2: had in my life. Ever, I am more than happy.

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Speaker 2: I'm honored to be your man and father of our child.

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Speaker 2: Regardless of the hardships and challenges we've been through, it

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Speaker 2: was most definitely worth it. Things will get better even

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Speaker 2: further down the road. Remember this, you and me are

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Speaker 2: in it until the end. But after Xavier is born

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Speaker 2: in the spring of twenty thirteen, things don't get better.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they get worse.

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Speaker 5: My mom and dad were at work. I don't even

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Speaker 5: know what I was doing, probably going to the kitchen,

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Speaker 5: and when I passed by the bedroom that they were in,

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Speaker 5: their door was open. I had heard them arguing, like

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Speaker 5: they were kind of just like quietly talking back and forth,

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Speaker 5: but you could tell it was an argument. When I

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Speaker 5: walked past, I saw him roll her to the side

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Speaker 5: and just punch her really hard in the thigh, and

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Speaker 5: she cried out and started crying and was upset.

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Speaker 1: I was like, kind of like, what did did he

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Speaker 1: just hit her?

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Speaker 2: This was the first time she'd actually seen Devin punch

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Speaker 2: her sister. She couldn't believe her eyes. Natalie felt she

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Speaker 2: needed to tell her mom right away.

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Speaker 5: And so when she got home and kind of like

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Speaker 5: confronted them about it, Libby was just like, no, you

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Speaker 5: took it wrong. You didn't see that, kind of like

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Speaker 5: she was defending him, and I was like, well, I

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Speaker 5: know what I saw and I heard it like I

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Speaker 5: could hear it. He hit you really hard, And She's

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Speaker 5: kind of just like, no, he was just playing and

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Speaker 5: she just defended him. And I don't know why.

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Speaker 2: Libby adamantly denied that Devin hit her, not that time,

254
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Speaker 2: not Ever, whatever Natalie had seen had been misinterpreted. Cindy,

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Speaker 2: for her part, wasn't sure what was true, but she

256
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Speaker 2: wanted to believe Libby.

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Speaker 3: I kind of felt something like I would feel someone right,

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Speaker 3: or Natalie would say, Mom, they were in the bedroom

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Speaker 3: and we heard this loud slap and she cried, and

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Speaker 3: I would say, Libby, did he hit you today? No?

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Speaker 3: Who told you that we were just playing around or

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Speaker 3: you know, something like that. But then we've seen the

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Speaker 3: bruise on your leg.

264
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Speaker 2: Why would Libby try to hide the abuse from her family.

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Speaker 2: There's no way for me to truly know, but I

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Speaker 2: do have some ideas based on what I've learned from

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Speaker 2: talking to other women in similar situations. Maybe Libby felt

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Speaker 2: ashamed that her boyfriend would treat her so roughly, and

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Speaker 2: ashamed that she tolerated his behavior. Maybe she didn't want

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Speaker 2: to give her mom another reason not to like Devin,

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Speaker 2: still holding out hope they could become a happy, young family,

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Speaker 2: or maybe she truly believed that each time was an accident,

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Speaker 2: each time an anomaly, each time was the last. From

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Speaker 2: Cindy's recollection, this time period, the first few months after

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Speaker 2: Xavier is born, is incredibly chaotic and tense. Libby, at seventeen,

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00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 2: is trying to learn how to care for her newborn.

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Speaker 2: Libby and Devon are fighting constantly, and they break up

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Speaker 2: once again. This time Cindy bans Devon from the house,

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Speaker 2: but Devin doesn't listen.

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Speaker 1: Instead, he shows the.

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Speaker 2: Caswell family just how much of a problem he could be.

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Speaker 3: He would either throw eggs at the house, sit late

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Speaker 3: at night, speed up and down the street. He would

284
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Speaker 3: come and stand in the street and yew. He'd say,

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Speaker 3: you better let me see my son.

286
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Speaker 2: Cindy felt the threats were escalating, and so finally she

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Speaker 2: decides to take action.

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Speaker 1: She does something that.

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Speaker 2: Would strain her relationship with her daughter and change the

290
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 2: trajectory of Libby's story, something a lot of people do

291
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 2: when face with a potentially dangerous situation they can't handle alone.

292
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Speaker 1: She calls the police.

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Speaker 3: I was hoping that the police would come immediately and

294
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 3: catching here. That was pretty naive.

295
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 2: Everything falls apart. In the summer of twenty thirteen, a

296
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Speaker 2: few months after Xavier's birth, the very first time Cindy

297
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 2: calls the police to report Devon. It's August second, around.

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Speaker 1: Eight at night. The police notes are.

299
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Speaker 2: Simple, white female and white male arguing in street. Caller

300
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 2: is mother of female and that's basically it. The call

301
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,240
Speaker 2: is flagged as a domestic disturbance. I can't tell from

302
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 2: the police report if anyone talked to Libya or Devon

303
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,040
Speaker 2: about what was going on, but the visit doesn't seem

304
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 2: to do much to abate the problem, because seven hours later,

305
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 2: Cindy calls again at three am to report that someone Devin,

306
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,719
Speaker 2: she suspected, was driving up and down her sleepy street,

307
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 2: blasting loud music to harass them. Again, the police come,

308
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: but there's nothing to see. The car is long gone.

309
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,919
Speaker 2: Over the next week, every time Devin shows up at

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Speaker 2: the house Cindy calls, it.

311
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,439
Speaker 3: Would take him an hour, hour and a half sometimes

312
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 3: after a while to come and he would be long gone.

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Speaker 3: He would laugh and say, they ain't never gonna catch me.

314
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Speaker 3: I'm too smart for them, and yeah, he'd just run off.

315
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Speaker 2: And then there's the day that Devin stands across the

316
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Speaker 2: street from her house, shirtless, swinging a hammer. It's a

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Speaker 2: blazingly hot Monday in August, and Cindy has the day

318
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Speaker 2: off of work. She and Libby are inside the house

319
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Speaker 2: trying to keep the baby cool, and Devin's standing outside

320
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Speaker 2: with the hammer, yelling you better let me see my son.

321
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 2: Cindy calls IPD again once more. By the time they arrive,

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Speaker 2: Devon's gone, but the police are not particularly concerned by

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Speaker 2: whatever happened with the hammer. Instead, they're annoyed by the

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00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 2: frequency with which Cindy is calling nine one one and

325
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 2: frustrated by their encounters with Libby. The officers write in

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Speaker 2: their report quote IPD had responded to the address five

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00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 2: times in August twenty thirteen for disturbances and building checks,

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Speaker 2: all pertaining to Devon. Each time IPD has responded, Elizabeth

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00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 2: has been very uncooperative. I've seen this word uncooperative a

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Speaker 2: lot in my career, especially used to describe victims of

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Speaker 2: domestic violence.

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Speaker 4: We have very strong stereotypes about the ways that victims

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Speaker 4: of domestic violence are supposed to act.

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Speaker 2: Lee Goodmark is the director of the Gender Violence Clinic

335
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Speaker 2: at the University of Maryland's care School of Law.

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Speaker 4: So a victim of domestic violence is supposed to be

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00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 4: meek and weak and passive and grateful for the intervention

338
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 4: of police. When people don't act in conformity with this

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00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 4: stereotype that says a victim will do anything that they

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00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 4: can do to help with prosecution, then they are labeled uncooperative.

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Speaker 2: There are many reasons why Libby might not have wanted

342
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 2: to quote cooperate with the police. To start, it was

343
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 2: her mom calling the authorities, not her. She may have

344
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,399
Speaker 2: been afraid of how Devin would react, or maybe she

345
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 2: didn't want to see the father of her son in jail.

346
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 2: And as far as Cindy recalls, IPD never spoke with

347
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,719
Speaker 2: Libby privately to gain more insight into her behavior and

348
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 2: never asked questions about her safety.

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Speaker 4: Even though police have been trained for the last forty

350
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Speaker 4: years around these issues, around these ideas about why people

351
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,879
Speaker 4: might not want to go forward with cases, why they

352
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 4: might be afraid to talk to police, you still see

353
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 4: least labeling victims uncooperative, and once a victim has that label,

354
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 4: they are deemed less credible.

355
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Speaker 2: Which is exactly what happened in this case, because instead

356
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 2: of offering Liby and Cindy support, IPD tells them to

357
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 2: stop calling altogether.

358
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Speaker 3: They were like, you can't just keep calling nine one one.

359
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to kick out your daughter and rectify

360
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 3: this situation. You can't just keep calling nine one one,

361
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 3: And we were like, she has a new baby. We're

362
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,360
Speaker 3: not gonna throw her out in the street. She doesn't

363
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 3: want him here.

364
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: IPD decides to use the law against them, invoking a

365
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 2: little known city ordinance that prohibits maintaining a nuisance property.

366
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: A property might be considered a nuisance if the residents

367
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: are selling drugs out of it, or accumulating dangerous junk

368
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 2: in the yard, or really doing anything that their neighbors

369
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 2: don't like. Ordinances like these are fairly common across the

370
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 2: US and often pretty vague. Much is left to the

371
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 2: discretion of the officers, and in some cases, a person

372
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: might be cited not for being a nuisance to their neighbors,

373
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: but to the police for calling too many times, even

374
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 2: if they're calling to report a crime that is being

375
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: committed against them. Hours after the police respond to the

376
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: hammer incident, they sent another officer to serve Cindy and

377
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: her husband Robert, with papers officially designating their house a

378
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: quote nuisance property. They're warned not to call the police

379
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: again or risk a fine. Cindy, Robert, and Libby all

380
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: sign a copy, and.

381
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 3: So they were like, well, we have a certain number

382
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: of times that you can call, and then we're going

383
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 3: to press charges on you, guys. I had never heard

384
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 3: of that. I had never heard a nuisance to the

385
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 3: law in any way, and so it was just ridiculous

386
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: to me. I didn't know. Though I was naive, I

387
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 3: still trusted the police, even though I thought they could

388
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 3: come a little quicker when I didn't call.

389
00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:59,959
Speaker 1: Lee good Mark again.

390
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 4: The irony is that we tell people to call nine

391
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 4: one one if they're experiencing danger. We tell people that

392
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 4: police are the ones who are supposed to protect them.

393
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 4: We tell them that the criminal system is supposed to

394
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 4: intervene in these cases, and then when they try to

395
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,959
Speaker 4: use that tool to do all of the things that

396
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 4: they're told it's going to do, they're prosecuted.

397
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 2: After the Caswell's house is flagged as a nuisance, Cindy

398
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: stops calling the police. Months go by, some days are peaceful,

399
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: others not so much. And without the option of calling

400
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: the cops, Cindy takes matters into her own hands.

401
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: One time, him and his friend showed up outside, and

402
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 3: they got out of their car and was standing in

403
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 3: my yard and taunting and saying, what are you going

404
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: to do about it? You came, you know, what are

405
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 3: you going to do? And I went and got Robert's

406
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: samurai's sword and went outside.

407
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: When Cindy told me this, I was kind of dumb

408
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: struck because I've spent a lot of time with her

409
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: and I cannot imagine her will a weapon against anyone.

410
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 2: She's one of the most gentle and mild mannered people

411
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: I've ever met.

412
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 3: And the guy he was with yelled, dude, she has

413
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 3: a sword, and they joked in the car and took off.

414
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: Then one cold January morning, Cindy hears Devon and Libby fighting.

415
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: It scares Cindy enough that she does something she hadn't

416
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: wanted to do since her house had been labeled a nuisance.

417
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: She calls nine one one. When the police arrived, they

418
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 2: handcuffed Devin, but not because of his behavior towards Libby,

419
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: because he had an outstanding warrant for an unpaid fine.

420
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: He's led to a patrol car, and, according to the

421
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 2: police report, Libby panics and tries to run after him.

422
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: The officer gives Libby a lecture, he writes in his

423
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: report quote, after a stern warning and conversation, I elected

424
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: not to arrest Libby Caswell.

425
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: The officer's note.

426
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: Reminds me of what Lee Goodmark said about the stereotypes

427
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: of domestic violence victim. In this moment, Libby isn't acting

428
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 2: meek or passive or grateful for police intervention. She's not

429
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: acting like a victim, so she's not, in my opinion,

430
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: being treated like one. A couple months go by without

431
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: any more nine to one one calls, but then one

432
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: day Cindy walks into the living room and sees Devin

433
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: tackle Libby on the couch, smothering her with his body.

434
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: That time he laid on her and she couldn't breathe.

435
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 3: I called nine one one. I took a ball bat

436
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 3: after him and told him to get out of my house.

437
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: IPD shows up, but Devn's gone. They come back a

438
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: few days later, this time looking for Cindy.

439
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 3: Three guys in a suit came with some officers and

440
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: they were like, here's your citation. Now you have a

441
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 3: court date.

442
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 2: She and her husband Robert appear in court officially charged

443
00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: with maintaining a nuisance property. They plead guilty. That was humiliating,

444
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: you know, they each have to pay a fine of

445
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty five dollars.

446
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: We didn't break the law.

447
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: We didn't.

448
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 3: We respected the law. You know, we did everything we

449
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 3: were supposed to. We licensed our vehicles and had this

450
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 3: amount of animals and got their raby shots and you know,

451
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 3: we like just lived life like normal people.

452
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: Cindy's experience with the police, the things they did and

453
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: didn't do, it really burned her. And despite how unfair

454
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 2: and unjust the citation seemed, Cindy took it seriously. She

455
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 2: stopped calling IPD. She had lost faith in the police

456
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: ever helping them, and so she told me had Libby.

457
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 3: It was kind of like it victimized her the way

458
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: they did us and didn't do anything to him.

459
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: After all this goes down, Libby ends up moving out

460
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 2: of her childhood home and for the next few years

461
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: hops from apartment to apartment around town. She sometimes lives

462
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: alone or with a friend, but whenever she's with Devon.

463
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: There are more nine one one calls, this time coming

464
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: not from Cindy but from neighbors, friends, landlords. I have

465
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: some of the reports here. Incident type domestic disturbance. Male

466
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: and female going in and out of duplex fighting. Incident

467
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: type disturbance. Two subjects screaming and fighting. Heard something hit

468
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: the wall. Incident type domestic disturbance. Couple fighting in intersection.

469
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 2: Can hear screaming and slamming door. Has been going on

470
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 2: all day. Incident type domestic disturbance. Landlord called to report

471
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: that Devon Martin came to home, destroyed property and is

472
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: trying to start fight with Libby. Incident type domestic disturbance.

473
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: Since six a m. Caller had received texts from Libby Caswell,

474
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: female in abusive relationship, her son's father has been there

475
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 2: on and off all day. Caller said Libby was afraid

476
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: to call the police despite all of Cindy's calls and

477
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: the calls of neighbors and friends. Devon was never arrested

478
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: or charged with domestic violence. Would it have been different

479
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: if Libby was quote cooperative or was there simply no

480
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: way for the police to know what happened when the

481
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: two of them were alone. I've tried repeatedly to contact

482
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: Devon and get his side of the story, but he's

483
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: never responded. Nonetheless, in the wake of Libby's death, these

484
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 2: nine to one one calls, these reports of domestic disturbances

485
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: spanning from twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen, are what IPD

486
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: had as context. There was even a protective order that

487
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: Cindy obtained at one point to keep Devon away from

488
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: the house. This history of alleged domestic violence, it seems

489
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: highly relevant to Libby's death investigation, as by Devon's own account,

490
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: she died in a room alone with him, which is

491
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: why it's so confounding that IPD didn't ask Devin about

492
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: any of this. As far as we can tell, their

493
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: long history of domestic disputes is not noted anywhere in

494
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: her death investigation. In ipd's interview with Devon, he's not

495
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: asked about any of these specific incidents, and when he

496
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: offers up the claim that he had never heard Libby

497
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: in the past, I would not ever do anything the

498
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: hard physically, IPD just moves on to another topic. They

499
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: really only push him about his possible involvement in her

500
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: death once and honestly not very hard.

501
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 6: To put this the rest a little bit.

502
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 8: It's something bad happened, but things got out of controls.

503
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: It's positive that prone trying to help.

504
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 3: Put it help put my hand on a viblely now

505
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: put it on everything I love, on my huldre or

506
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 3: my son's like.

507
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 7: Them, and not everything that's in my pay never.

508
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: Never, when I heard it like that, It's possible that

509
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: IPD did review all these files and decided that they

510
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: weren't relevant. To be clear, within the neatly typed reports

511
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: about the conflict between the couple, there's no mention of

512
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: an explicit act of physical violence, no black eyes or

513
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: broken limbs. It's all a little murky, a little messy.

514
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: And so if that was the extent of information IPD had,

515
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: maybe it would be understandable why they didn't dig into

516
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: the possibility of Devin's and involvement in Libby's death any deeper,

517
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: just accepted his version of events.

518
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: But this was not all they had.

519
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: The very next day, after Devin tells police that he'd

520
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: never laid a hand on Libby, someone comes down to

521
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: the police station to report something they had witnessed exactly

522
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: one week earlier, something they thought might be connected to

523
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: Libby's death, something that, if true, would mean Devin lied

524
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: to police.

525
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't honestly know what happened,

526
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 8: but if there was something that was wrong and it

527
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 8: needs to be, you know, brought.

528
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 7: Out Hello, Hello, Hey, is that Gary?

529
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 8: Yes, it is.

530
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: This is Gary Stevens. He used to live with Devin's mother, Mindy,

531
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: and they have a child together. Devin's half brother kind of.

532
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 8: Looked up to me as a as a father figure.

533
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 8: Kind Him and his father didn't get along very well,

534
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 8: and he kind of looked up to me, So, I mean,

535
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 8: that's what makes this so hard.

536
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 2: In the fall of twenty seventeen, Devin asked Gary if

537
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: he and Libby could live at Gary's house for a

538
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: bit while they saved money for a new apartment.

539
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 8: He was working at Sonic, and I said, yeah, I'll

540
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 8: come on, you know, it's fine.

541
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: A month passed with no problems. Libby and Devin went

542
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: to work. Gary saw them in passing, but then one day,

543
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: while Gary was at home, he heard sounds like they

544
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: were fighting, and these sounds were disturbing enough that he

545
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: decided he had to intervene.

546
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 8: I heard things and knocked all of the you know

547
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 8: on the floor. Normally I wouldn't open up door. I knocked,

548
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 8: say hey, you know, but I felt something wasn't right.

549
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 8: So when I opened up the door, I seen Devin

550
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 8: was on olive and he.

551
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 6: Was choking her.

552
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 8: She was angled caddy corner on the bed and he

553
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 8: was sitting on top of her. And I mean it

554
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 8: surprised him when I opened up the door, you know,

555
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 8: he kind of let it and turned around. She raised up,

556
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 8: and that's I kind of lost it. I said, look,

557
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 8: you guys, ain't I'm disrespect near my house.

558
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 7: You're not going to do this here.

559
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 8: You're not going to tear up my house. You got

560
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 8: to go. And I'm feel bad because maybe I shouldn't have.

561
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 8: Maybe maybe I shouldn't have made him leave. I don't,

562
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 8: you know, I could There could be a thousand maybe

563
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 8: I shouldn't, But that didn't what happened.

564
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: This might seem like another in the long list of

565
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: troubling allegations against Devin, but strangling or choking, as Gary

566
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: called it, is a very bad sign in the history

567
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: of an abusive relationship. For context, it's estimated that each

568
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: year you, US women suffer at least five million acts

569
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: of domestic violence. That's almost fourteen thousand every single day.

570
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: The vast majority of these incidents are not lethal, but

571
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: each day around three of these women will die at

572
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: the hands of their partners. So figuring out which victims

573
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: are at the highest risk of homicide is a priority

574
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: for anyone trying to stop this from happening, because if

575
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: you can predict which women are most likely to be

576
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: killed by their partners, you can intervene before it's too late,

577
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: or that's the hope. And what researchers have found is

578
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 2: that strangulation is a powerful predictor for future deadly violence.

579
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 2: Women who are strangled by their partners are over seven

580
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: times more likely to later be killed by them. It's

581
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: such an important red flag in domestic violence cases that

582
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: in hundreds of jurisdictions across the US, police are trained

583
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: to ask domestic violence victims if they have ever been strangled,

584
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: so that they can identify those who are at the

585
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 2: most risk.

586
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 7: So was she on her back and he was like

587
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 7: straddling her, yes, okay? And he had his hands around

588
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 7: her throat? Yes, okay? Was she making any noise? Like?

589
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 7: Was he cutting off the circle the air to her down.

590
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 8: You know, I didn't hear any noises, but I'm sure

591
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 8: that you know, I'm sure that's what was happening.

592
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: Only a week later, Gary heard the news that Libby

593
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: died with a belt around her neck.

594
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 8: I seen on Facebook Libby had died.

595
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 7: What was your initial reaction. I was shocked.

596
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 8: I was very shocked. And then and then my first

597
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 8: thought was, well, you know what what I just witnessed.

598
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 2: Gary drove down to the station and asked to speak

599
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 2: to someone about Libby's case.

600
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 8: When I when I went in, there was a lady

601
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 8: that you know, you just talk through the glass at

602
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 8: it with a speaker, and she said just a moment,

603
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 8: and she told them that they had someone would maybe

604
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 8: information about what had happened.

605
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: Instead of bringing him into an interview room where statements

606
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: can be recorded, an officer took a statement in the lobby,

607
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: So we don't have an audio recording of it, just

608
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: notes from IPD in Gary's recollection.

609
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 8: And when a detective come out talk to me, I

610
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 8: just told him exactly, you know, like I explained to

611
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 8: you what I witnessed.

612
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 7: Did they seem interested in the information, Like, how did

613
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 7: they react, not really.

614
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 8: They didn't really seem to have too much, you know,

615
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 8: enthusiasm about it. They didn't say a lot, and I

616
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 8: think maybe it was still under investigation at that time,

617
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 8: so I don't know what they would have said.

618
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 7: Did you ever hear from them again?

619
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 8: No, I didn't. No follow up, no, no, nothing.

620
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: No. To this day, Gary is conflicted and confused about

621
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: the meaning of what he saw.

622
00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 8: I honestly I would have a hard time believing that

623
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 8: he would do this, although what I witnessed was you know,

624
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,959
Speaker 8: that's what when I think to myself, and I've thought

625
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 8: this over a thousand times, I think Devin did it.

626
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 8: In my heart and in my mind, I want to

627
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 8: say no, but it goes right back to what I see.

628
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 8: So I don't know. I honestly do not know. Everyone

629
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 8: deserves to know the truth, and if there was something

630
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 8: that was not right, then someone should be held accountable.

631
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 8: I mean, I like Devin, I love him as far

632
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 8: as a person. I don't want to see any harm

633
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 8: to him, but if he was capable of doing this,

634
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 8: he needs to be held responsible.

635
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: On the next episode of What Happened to Libby Caswell Well,

636
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: we learn about another secret Libby was keeping I mean.

637
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 6: I knew she was doing something, but she just wouldn't

638
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 6: admit it to me at.

639
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: First, A secret that intensified an already volatile relationship.

640
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 8: He was doing jokes and here's a lot those people

641
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 8: that stayed up for like a week, and when you

642
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 8: do that, you get crazy, you know.

643
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 7: I think it from.

644
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 8: Ry and Tim.

645
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: Grown don't make.

646
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: What Happened to Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted

647
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: by me Melissa Jelson, with writing and story editing by

648
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 2: Maurica Brown and Lauren Hanson. Episodes are edited by Jeremy

649
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: Thal and Carl Catle. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch.

650
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: For I Podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvel,

651
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: with our supervising producer Carl Catele.

652
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: Fact checking by Maya Shukre.

653
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: Our theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed

654
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 2: by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Woolf. Original music by Aaron

655
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal. Our episodes are

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Speaker 2: mixed and mastered by Carl Catle. To find out more

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Speaker 2: about my investigation or to send a tip, please email

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Speaker 2: me at what happened to Libby at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 1: What fine in peace? In peace, and.

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Speaker 7: So chano you.

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Speaker 1: Until until.

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Speaker 5: Are away a five minor so.

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Speaker 1: In pieces

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Speaker 8: In Pieces in the Dark