1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any views 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: represent my own. And nothing contained in this show should 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. UH. Today's guest is 10 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: Hamilton's Morris. He's a journalist, UH, documentary maker, a scientific researcher, 11 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: and explad lore. He's not even thirty five years old 12 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: as yet, but he's made quite a name for himself 13 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 1: and had quite an impact, most especially with his TV 14 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: series called Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, which started off as a series 15 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: of columns for Vice magazine and then became something for 16 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: Vice HBO TV. And I have to tell you I've 17 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: been binging on his episodes of LA there's a total 18 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: of twenty of them, and I just can't recommend it 19 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: highly enough. So Hamilton's thanks, so much for for joining 20 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: me today, Thank you for having me. So, I mean, 21 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: I have to tell you, on one level, I feel 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: like something that you and I are in some respects 23 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: kindred spirits and in one respect major respect different, and 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: that you're really coming in part from a love of chemistry, 25 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: whereas for me that's always been the kind of part 26 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: of the whole drug piece that never quite engaged me. 27 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: But I say, Kendred Spear in the sense of being 28 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: interested in the broad spectrum of psychoactive drugs and of 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: their impact and impact of use on culture and society 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: and and on prohibition. But I want to ask you 31 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: right now, virtually all of your adult life right has 32 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: been devoted to studying this, communicating about this, teaching people 33 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: about this. What was it you think that grabbed you? Well, 34 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: I would actually say that, you know, I was always 35 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: very interested in the power of psychoactive drugs, even dating 36 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: back to being in kindergarten. I can remember watching the 37 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: news and hearing reports of people overdosing on drugs and 38 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: finding the idea of it, just the very idea that 39 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: drugs could kill somebody totally fascinating as a young child, 40 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: and I would tell other children on the playground about it, saying, 41 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: did you know that if he mix alcohol and sleeping 42 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: pills that can be fatal? It can kill you. And 43 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: this wasn't, you know, something scary to me. It was 44 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: something amazing, the idea that a combination of two substances 45 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: could cause death. Um. You know, it's sort of in 46 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: the same way that a child might find a karate 47 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: move that's like the touch of death fascinating. And there 48 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: was a certain magic to it all that I always 49 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: found really really interesting. Um you know. I read Fear 50 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: and Loathing in Las Vegas as a young child, and 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: kind of like the storytelling and artistic elements of people 52 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: describing their psychedelic experiences. But I would say the real 53 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: formative moment was reading an article in the New York 54 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: Times magazine when I was in high school about Alexander 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: Shaalgan and thinking, well, this is just about the most 56 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: amazing human being I've ever heard of. This is I 57 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: couldn't think of a fictional character as interesting as this person, 58 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: and I as soon as I read about him, I 59 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: was obsessed. And I read Pekall and t Call and 60 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: that was my entry into I think a deeper understand 61 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: ending of the chemistry and the richness of this world. 62 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: I mean, so, how your teenager when you read that 63 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: article about Sasha Sugun, were you already using psycholic drugs 64 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: at that point or anything else? No. No, My father 65 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: had a psychiatrist named Doris Millman who had published a 66 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: number of medical articles on the dangers of LSD, specifically 67 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: in the context of children using LSD, and he had 68 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: this idea that psychedelics and LSD in particular were very dangerous. 69 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: And he's a rational, permissive person who doesn't ask me 70 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: not to do unreasonable things. And he said, don't take LSD. 71 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: It's just not safe. Don't take it. You know, there's 72 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: mental illness in our family. It's simply not a good idea. Um, 73 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: that's something you absolutely must avoid. And I thought, all right, 74 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: fair enough. So I had this idea that LSD and 75 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: classical serot energic psychedelics were especially risky. But I was 76 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: fascinating did with salvia when I was in high school. 77 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: Probably my first real work with chemistry was extracting and 78 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: purifying salvin or in a from Salvia divinorum leaves, and 79 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: so I had used that, but I had never used 80 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: a classical sertennergic psychedelic like psilocybin containing mushrooms or LSD 81 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: at the time that I found out about Alexander Shalgan. 82 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, were there other potential issues competing with drugs, 83 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: psychoactive drugs and chemistry for your attention or excitement back 84 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: then or was it just a clear straight shot from 85 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: there up to now? Uh No, not really. I mean 86 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: I think I had this sort of typical high school 87 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: interest in alcohol and that kind of thing, you know, cannabis, 88 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: but it wasn't really a huge part of my life. 89 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: I found it interesting, very very interesting. But I wasn't 90 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: somebody that jumped in head first as a high school student. 91 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: I was neurotic and coustious and um. Although I did it, 92 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: you know, smoke occasionally or drink occasionally, it wasn't a 93 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: huge part of my life. It wasn't until I was 94 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: in college and the gray market research chemical industry made 95 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: it possible to order all of these chemicals that I 96 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: was able to really actually use a lot of the 97 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: psychedelics at Alexander Salgan described, which of course creates an 98 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: even deeper appreciation for his work. It's one thing to 99 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: read the peak call entry for tow CT seven and 100 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: another thing entirely to actually try to CT seven and realize, Wow, 101 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: this is such a fascinating chemical that this man created 102 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: in his backyard in California. Yeah. No, I mean it's interesting. 103 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: I think I first met Sasha. It was and I 104 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: was teaching at Princeton and I got in a significant 105 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: grant to create a Princeton working group on the Future 106 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: of drug use and Alternative to drug prohibition, and Andy 107 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: Wile suggested it that I reach out to Sasha Sugin. 108 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: I didn't know, and he said he had based been 109 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: keeping a very low profile. But then in nine six, 110 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: Congress had passed the Federal Control Substances Act that effectively 111 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: criminalized a lot of the work that Sasha was doing 112 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: in his back backyard lab. And so he and I 113 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: became friendly, and when I would go out to the 114 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: Bay Area, I would go over to his home and 115 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: visit him and his wife Anne, where I was on 116 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: Shulgin Road and Lafayette, California. I mean, he really was 117 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: a truly extraordinary, extraordinary figure. Um. You know, you know 118 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: I watched Um, I guess one of the first documentaries 119 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: you must have done was your visit to uh to 120 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: see Sasha and when you're just in your early twenties 121 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: and sort of your reverence for him just just came through, 122 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: uh you know in that Oh yeah, no, I mean, 123 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean a huge I even would go so far 124 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: as to say I became a journalist as a reason 125 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: to talk to Alexander Shulgan. You know, that was that 126 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: was probably one of the early moode evaders, was you know, 127 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: why would he talk to me? Well, maybe he talked 128 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: to me if I were writing an article about him 129 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: or you know, maybe then that would be some incentive. 130 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: And that was kind of one of the main things 131 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: that interested me about journalism at the beginning was that 132 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: it was a license to be curious about things that 133 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: otherwise you would have no legitimate reason to ask questions 134 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: about why would somebody talk to and annoying college student 135 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: about their work. They have better things to do, they're busy. 136 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: But if he's working for a magazine and he's writing 137 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: an article or making a short documentary, well maybe they'll 138 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: We'll give him a couple hours. So that was one 139 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: of my by early things that I wanted to do 140 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: was just spend time with Alexander Shulgan. And his family 141 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: was very kind to me. They would invite me to 142 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: their home on the fourth of July each year, and 143 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: I did have the opportunity to spend a good amount 144 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: of time with him at the end of his life, 145 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: and their memories that I will always share. Ish m hmm. 146 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: Were there other key people you met at snash this 147 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: place who became imported in your life thereafter? Well, certainly, 148 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: I mean it of course attracted a very interesting group 149 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: of people, and it ranged from clandestine chemists too, scientific researchers, 150 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: many of whom are still part of the world of 151 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: psychedelic research today. Of course, there was Paul Daley who 152 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: was sort of Shellgan's protege and worked with him in 153 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: the lab at the end of his life after he 154 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: had pretty much gone blind. Um and Paul Daily is 155 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: still working in Shulgan's lab and now is the head 156 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: of the Sholgan Research Institute, which is a sort of 157 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical company aimed at continuing Alexander Shulgan's research. So I've 158 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, remained in touch with him and and Sholgan 159 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: and Tanya Manning and all these great wonderful people that 160 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: were part of Team Shulgin. It was called and of course, 161 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean and is you know, a very 162 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: amazing and influential and inspiring person as well. Yeah, I 163 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: mean really a sort of founder of M d M 164 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: A psychotherapy in many respects. I remember it was unusual 165 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: when I created that working group at Princeton. Sasha was 166 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: the only one I hadn't thought to invite Anne. And 167 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: Sasha said, well, wherever I go, she goes over, she 168 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: goes I go, So she's going to be part of 169 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: the group as well. So they really were this sort 170 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: of dynamic duo, you know, putting and bringing their perspective 171 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: to thinking about the future of drug use. Well, let 172 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: me ask you know, one of the things that comes 173 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: through when I'm watching and binging your episodes is your 174 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: reverence for some of the you know, the the underground chemists. 175 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: You know. I had a Leonard Picard on the show 176 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: a while back and he talked about the brotherhood of 177 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: underground Chemists, and and what I comes through out of 178 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: you as well is really almost a reverence for for 179 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: who these people were and what they were doing. And 180 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: some of them are obviously people who are well known. 181 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: You know, there's Dave Nichols, who was at produced and 182 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: a leading person operating with a government license, producing many 183 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: these chemicals, doing the research, but you also look at 184 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: people who were on the underground and maybe and so 185 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: I remember three of the names that popped up as 186 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: I was watching. One was Ken Nelson, another was Steve 187 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: gil another was Darryl Lemaire. Can you just tell the 188 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: audience a little bit about these three guys and maybe 189 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: reflect on what they shared in common? Yes, yeah, I 190 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: think that. You know, there are a very very small 191 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: number of underground chemists who become public figures, and those 192 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: are people like Owsley Stanley or Nick sand and they 193 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: represent a minuscule minority of the people that have actually 194 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: built this world of psychedelics. Because a sort of unspoken 195 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: fact of all of this is that when you go to, 196 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, a psychedelic conference, or you read an article 197 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: about psychedelics, the chances are every single person that is 198 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: there and interested in psychedelics has used them illegally, and 199 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: the psychedelics that they have used have been produced by 200 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: somebody who risked their freedom to make them. But those 201 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: people get no credit for the work that they've done, 202 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: and their names are typically completely unknown. So one of 203 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: the things that I wanted to do in my work 204 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: was find people that made these substances, the people who 205 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: weren't known, and talk to them about what their motivations were. 206 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: And I have had the pleasure of spending time with 207 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: an enormous number of different types of underground chemists from 208 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: around the world, and I think that their stories are 209 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: utterly fascinating and are really foundational to the world of 210 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: psychoactive drugs. It's probably the biggest part of this history 211 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: that has never been told, and so I tried to 212 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: do my part to tell a few of these stories 213 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: that really explain the origin of these substances. Because you 214 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: talk about something like PCP, and you know, if you 215 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: look at it a typical historical gloss of the history 216 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: of PCP, they'll say, Oh, it was developed by up 217 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: John Pharmaceuticals in Detroit and it was used as an anesthetic, 218 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: but then it escaped onto the street. We'll wait a second, 219 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: how did that happen? How did it escape onto the street? 220 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: Who's the person that made PCP, What was their motivation, 221 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: why were they doing it, who did they sell it to, 222 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: what did they think it was, what effect did they 223 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: think it would have on society? And so I wanted 224 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: to answer a few of those sorts of questions. Everyone's 225 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: talking about bouf will various venom, Well, where did this 226 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: come from? I remember Michael Paullen making a sort of 227 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: off hand joke about it on Joe Rogan, like, how 228 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: the heck did anyone think of that smoking toad venom? 229 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: What kind of crazy person would do that? And on 230 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: one hand, it's a joke, but on the other hand, 231 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: it's a serious question. What kind of person would do that? 232 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: Who is that person? What was their name? Why did 233 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: they do it? So I set out to find the 234 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: first person who had smoked well various venom and learn 235 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: about their story. And it was actually an immensely difficult 236 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: investigative task that required years of work, but I was 237 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: able to track down this person. His name was Ken Nelson. 238 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: I interviewed him on his literal deathbed. He died just 239 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: about two weeks after the interview, and the story is 240 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: totally fascinating. So the same is also true of somebody 241 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: like Steve gil This is a name that is not 242 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: widely known. He's a close friend of mine. I talked 243 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: to him to this day. And this is somebody who 244 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: is responsible for what are likely hundreds of thousands of 245 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: M d M A experiences. These are probably, in many 246 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: instances transformative experiences that people had, yet the name and 247 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: the origin of that chemical is not known to those people, 248 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: you know. I mean with the Steve Gil portion of 249 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: one of your shows, I mean, that's a guy who 250 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: was producing M d m A illegally for decades and 251 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: then gets busted. I mean, you have this very powerful 252 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: moment in there, you know about he goes to prison, 253 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: the tragedy of seeing somebody who's been creating you know, 254 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: so much good I mean benefit in the world, just 255 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: being sort of destroyed by that and not able to 256 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: not not destroyed, but really destroyed for a while, and 257 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: and not struggling to come back from that um whereas 258 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: somebody like Ken Nelson, right, I mean his was not 259 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: I guess so much concern about the criminality of it. 260 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: I mean, in this case with five five M e 261 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: O d M T the toad medicine. You know, oftimes 262 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: people think about these things like peyote or or you know, 263 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: whether you also be talking about coca or opium, or 264 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: it could be thinking about on ayahuasca. Sometimes where these 265 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: things go back the use goes back hundreds or thousands 266 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: of years. But with the toad medicine, ken Nelson sort 267 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: of figured out that thing about the toes gland, it 268 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: was not illegal, right, I mean, just tell us a 269 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: little bit of that story right there. Yeah, I mean, 270 00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: it's a very convoluted story that has multiple threads. The 271 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: history of five EMMYO d m T has an indigenous 272 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: thread where there is a history dating back thousands of 273 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: years of people using various traditional snuff preparations from plants 274 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: that contain small quantities of five EMMYO d m T s. 275 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: You could start there thousands of years ago. But the 276 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: experience of using these plants that have complex mixtures of 277 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: tripped to means is not comparable to the experience of 278 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: smoking boof will various venom, which is, for all intents 279 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: and purposes, just five m e O d MT. Yes, 280 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: there are lots of other things in it chemically, but 281 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: in terms of what is responsible for the psycho pharmacological 282 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: effect of the smoked venom, it is a five mm 283 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: EO d m T mediated effect. Based on everything that 284 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: is currently known and so ken Nelson had been reading 285 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: a news report about an anthropologist named Janette run Quest, 286 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: who had excavated a Cherokee midden pile that contained thousands 287 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: of toad bones, and the high pathetical purpose of these 288 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: toadbones was that they were part of a drug ritual. 289 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: As it turned out, this anthropologist had made a mistake. 290 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: It was far more likely, based on contemporary anthropological analysis, 291 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: that these toads were a food source, not a drug. 292 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: And there's even evidence that the same group would consume 293 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: toads as a food source. And on top of that, 294 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: boof Ball various didn't exist anywhere close to the location 295 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: of these thousands of toadbones, and it was a different species, 296 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: so it doesn't really line up. But what's interesting is 297 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: he was inspired by this idea even though it was incorrect. 298 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: He thought, Okay, there's an ancient history of this, an 299 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: ancient history that likely did not exist, and I'm gonna 300 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: go and I'm gonna try to do that thing that 301 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: other people were doing in the past. So he thought 302 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: he was recapitulating a tradition, when in fact he was 303 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: creating something completely new. And he read an article by 304 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: Victorio or Spammer, who's famous for having discovered saratonin, who's 305 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: obsas with the chemistry of various frog secretions and toad 306 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: venoms and things of that nature. And he had found 307 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: that the venom of bouf wal various contained five m 308 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: E O D M T. And he thought, all right, well, 309 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: that's that's a good candidate right there. Let me locate 310 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: this toad. I'll do what the people were doing in 311 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: the past, and I will express the venom and smoke it, 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: and had this transcendent experience. But he was actually, based 313 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: on all known history, the first person to have done 314 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: anything like this. Mm hmmm. Why did you think he 315 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: remained kept himself anonymous too? More or less you figured 316 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: out who he was. Because there is a tremendous amount 317 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: of fear. I mean, people are still afraid, as they 318 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: should be. The consequences for ending up on the wrong 319 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: side of the story can be nothing less than the 320 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: complete destruction of your life, and for many people that 321 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: was a risk they did not want to take, especially 322 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. I mean, like I said, it's 323 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: still scary now. But in the eighties, all of this 324 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: stuff that we take for granted, all of this reform, 325 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: in this sense of progress, I don't think existed. I mean, 326 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: I wasn't alive at that time, but that is certainly 327 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: my impression that it was a darker and more frightening 328 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: time and even though it was technically legal, it's the 329 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: case that people will find out a way to get 330 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: you in trouble for these things if they really want to, 331 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: which was another aspect of my more recent bouf While 332 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: Various documentary from the third season of my show, the 333 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: man Bob Shepherd who was merely keeping the toads as 334 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: pets and was arrested for it and lost everything, lost 335 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: his job, lost all of his money in the legal battle. 336 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: He ended up homeless as a result of simply keeping 337 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: these toads as pets at a time when five mm 338 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: e o d m T was not a controlled substance 339 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: in the United States. They initially charged him with possession 340 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: of boufoton in, but then when the forensic chemist who 341 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: is tasked with analyzing the venom to find boofoten in 342 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: it to charge him, did the analysis, his name was 343 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: Ready Shamakura. He didn't find any boofotening at all. He 344 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: only found five m e O d m T, so 345 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: they couldn't charge him and they was all dropped by then. 346 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: It was too late. The reputational damage had been done 347 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: and there was no coming back. I'm just thinking, you know, 348 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: one of these things you do in your episodes, as 349 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,479 Speaker 1: you sometimes interview the cops, including the cops who are 350 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: busting these people. But the one I most liked is 351 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: you interviewed a d E A chemist and then you 352 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: did this beautiful scene where you're juxtaposing the d E 353 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: A chemist talking about his research with I think Steve 354 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: gil the M d M A producer, I think it 355 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: was him, and you're basically showing the parallels between the 356 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: two of them. I mean, the same the same joy 357 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: in the beauty of chemistry and the fascination with these psychelics. 358 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: But then, of course, you know one of them has 359 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: never tried anything. The d A guy, right, it's all 360 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: about the chemistry and the science. But you didn't press 361 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: him quite as hard about how this was a guy 362 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: who looked up to Sasha shil Again. But then when 363 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: Sashas gets rated by the d A, you know, he 364 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: just kind of expresses a mild regret. What was your 365 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: own personal feeling when you're interacting with him on that. 366 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: My feeling is that they have a very black and white, 367 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: non moralistic view of things. There is a law, you 368 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: break the law, you suffer the consequences. That's the way 369 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: it goes. And I think he also still values you know, 370 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: he was in the military. He values the work of 371 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: the d e A. He doesn't like to criticize the 372 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: d e A. He still speaks at forensic conferences. I 373 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: happen to really like Terry del cass and he's a 374 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: brilliant scientist. That's the d A researcher. Yes, that's the 375 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: d A researcher. And it just happens to be the 376 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: case that he is so interested in exactly the same 377 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: thing in a totally different way. I mean, I think 378 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: that's one of the most puzzling things about forensic chemists 379 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: and narcotics officers is you have people who are obsessed 380 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: with drugs, who have all of the passion for drugs 381 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: of a drug user, but they think about them in 382 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: an entirely different way than the drug user. And I 383 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: think it's really important to talk to people like that 384 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: to try to figure out the psychology of where they're 385 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: coming from. Because, of course I agree with you. If 386 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: you were friends with Alexander Slgan, if you admired Alexander 387 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: Slgan as a scientist, How could you think that there 388 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: is anything okay about arresting that brilliant man for doing 389 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: nothing wrong. But this is one of the complexities of 390 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: this world. People have very different interpretations of the same phenomenon. 391 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: And he happened to work for the government and work 392 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: in law enforcement, and that was how he interpreted it. 393 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: And if he felt differently, maybe he suppressed those emotions 394 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: because it's not an emotion that he could express. And 395 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: do you think did Sasha child can ever have any 396 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: qualms of his own about I mean, he had a 397 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: schedule in license, I guess for quite a while. Did 398 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: you think he ever had his own qualms about his 399 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: interactions with the d e A researchers. I think probably 400 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: he did at the end, especially. I mean, I think 401 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that made Shellgan so powerful and 402 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: so important was that he wasn't just a chemist. He 403 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: was so much more than that, and he was somebody 404 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: that brought people together. He didn't take sides. He would 405 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: talk to you. If you were a cop, he would 406 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: talk to you. If you worked for the d A. 407 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: He would talk to you if you were a clandestined chemist. 408 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: He would talk to you if you were a student. 409 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: He would talk to you if you didn't know anything 410 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: about chemistry. He loved to teach people and to include 411 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: people in his world, and that was what made him powerful, 412 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: is that he wasn't judgmental ideologue who felt the need 413 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: to wag his finger at everyone that disagreed with him. 414 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: He was curious about the world. He wanted to learn 415 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: why people were the way they were and try to 416 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: bring people together through knowledge and understanding. I mean, he 417 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: know he wrote an entire book for law enforcement. It 418 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: was actually his first book, so he wanted to share 419 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: what he knew. And I think maybe a lot of 420 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: it came from the perhaps slightly naive hope that through 421 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: the dissemination of information, things would get better. If people 422 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: understood what he understood, things would improve. And I don't 423 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: think long term that was naive at all. Short term 424 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: it was complicated, and I think towards the end of 425 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: his career, after the passage of the Federal Analog Act 426 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: and the controlling of m d m A, and of 427 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: course his own legal struggles after the publication of Pek Hall, 428 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: I think that his opinion of these things probably changed slightly, 429 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: as they would have to, I mean, given the sort 430 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: of harassment that he endured. But I still think that 431 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: his general message and his general effort to make information 432 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: available to everyone and to be as inclusive as possible 433 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: to people who had different perspectives on the subject that 434 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: he valued so much, was the right way to do things. Yeah, 435 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: and I remember, you know, Hamilton's him thinking about Peak 436 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: all right, which for our listeners stands for Peak calls 437 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: an acronym profen ethelenes I have known and loved, half 438 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: of which is a semi autobiographical love story about him 439 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: and his wife Ann and his friends and their use 440 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: of these substances that he's creating, and the other half 441 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: is the recipes for I think dozens or hundreds of 442 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: these substances. But I remember, I think at one point 443 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: saying that he almost saw this as creating the recipe 444 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: book for the sort of what might be the dark ages, 445 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: of the pharmacological dark ages that might be lying ahead. 446 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: I think when he got in a more sorrowful or 447 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: depressed mood about where things were heading. I mean, obviously 448 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: things have turned around very differently, and impact his influence 449 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: has been enormous, But I also can see why he 450 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: is for you, not just a hero, but I guess 451 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: a role model. I mean, it seems to me in 452 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: the way you've present both in the in the documentaries 453 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: you've done and in the way you present yourself, it's 454 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: the same basic idea of wanting to talk to anybody. 455 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes? Absolutely? And I think that you know, 456 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: part of his motivation and publishing that was he was 457 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: very terrified by the destruction of Wilhelm Reich's research by 458 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: the FDA in the nineteen forties because in the case 459 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: of Wilhelm Reich, of course, it turned out that what 460 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: he was doing was by all standards, pseudo science, and 461 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: the FDA said, Okay, this is medically dangerous. We have 462 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: to destroy this because it represents a threat to public health. 463 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: But his feeling was, well, couldn't somebody say exactly the 464 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: same thing about the work that I'm doing. Couldn't they say, 465 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, this is dangerous pseudoscience. These aren't therapeutic medicines, 466 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: these aren't psychotherapeutic adjuncts. These are drugs, and they're dangerous 467 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: and they killed somebody. So we've got to we've got 468 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: to get rid of this stuff. It represents a threat 469 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: to public health, and he was afraid that, like Wilhelm Reich, 470 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: his research could be destroyed if the government decided that 471 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: it was dangerous. And part of the motivation for the 472 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: publication of pek Hall was to ensure that that could 473 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: never be done, that his work couldn't be destroyed. I 474 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: think that also motivated the digitization of his research, which 475 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: was freely available on arrow It and remains freely available 476 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: and arrow It at least in terms of the chemistry. 477 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: Why did he do that because he wanted it to 478 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: be available to as many people as possible. He wanted 479 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: to ensure that there was no way that it could 480 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: be destroyed. Just explain from molitority, it's about Wilhelm Reich's research. 481 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: What was that about. You know, I'm not an expert 482 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: in Wilhelm Reich, but my understanding is that he was 483 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: producing these things called orgone accumulators, which would treat a 484 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: variety of different disorders, ranging from cancer to frigidity. And 485 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: you'd get into this box and these things became quite 486 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: popular with celebrities like William S Burrows, you know, later 487 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: William Stag as well, and you'd get into this box 488 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: that I think was just like a little shack with 489 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: coils on the top of it, and the idea is 490 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: that it would accumulate this imaginary substance called orgone that 491 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: would cure all diseases. So this was in fact pseudo science, 492 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: and one could make a legitimate argument that the dissemination 493 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: of this information was dangerous because of course, selling faulty 494 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: cancer cures or selling faulty treatments to desperate people is 495 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: a perennial way not only to make money but to 496 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: hurt people. So if you're running the FDA, from their perspective, 497 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: it makes sense this is dangerous. We've got to destroy this. 498 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: But the whole problem with you know, whether you're talking 499 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: about the history of eugenics or genocide or psycho surgery, 500 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: the problem is whenever we think we've figured out what 501 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: the bad thing is and what we have to destroy, 502 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: we often make a mistake, and sometimes the bad thing 503 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: that we're destroying actually isn't bad at all. And so 504 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: I think Shulgin was right to have that concern. And 505 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, I think we can all imagine, given the 506 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: caprices of world governments, how things can potentially go. I 507 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: mean they went pretty badly in this country for a 508 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: long time, and you know, they're still not doing all 509 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: that great, but they're getting better. And given the Reagan administration, 510 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: given all of these very restrictive laws that have been passed, 511 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the Federal Analog Act, for those that aren't 512 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: familiar with it, was a very frightening development in the 513 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: history of drug policy, because in the past there was 514 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: something closer to what exists in many other countries, where 515 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: you have drugs that are legal that are uncontrolled, and 516 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: you have drugs that are illegal they are controlled substances. 517 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: What the Federal Analog Act said was, well, if you're 518 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: selling a drug that's substantially similar to a controlled substance 519 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: that is in Schedule one or Schedule two, then that's 520 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: also a controlled substance. But the problem is substantially similar 521 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: was never defined in a chemically meaningful that way, and 522 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: so the functional outcome is that it put an enormous 523 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: number of compounds into a gray area. Is five m 524 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: e O d m T and analog of d MT, 525 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: Well apparently not, because they felt the need to schedule 526 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: five mmo d MT separately from d MT. But I 527 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: don't think anyone could meaningfully answer that question, because the 528 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: word analog isn't meaningful in any precise chemical sense, and 529 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: so Sulgan correctly recognized that this was an enormous threat. 530 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: This could render vast swaths of his research illegal without 531 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: a single law being passed other than the Federal Analog Act. 532 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: You know, there's another person you described early on is 533 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: one of your heroes, and it's just sort of not 534 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: a chemist, I don't think, and sort of complimentary to Sasha, 535 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: And that was way Davis say. Why oh, I mean, 536 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: I think Wade Davis is you know, he's a great 537 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: storyteller first of all, you know, um, and I think 538 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: that he was able to bring the magic of a 539 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: lot of these different cultures into the lives of people 540 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: who would never have the opportunity to visit them. Going 541 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: to Haiti and seeing the work that is done in 542 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: the Voodoo religion and the power of that belief system, 543 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: or San Pedro shamanism in Peru, or so many different 544 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: indigenous traditions. He I think, really was very good at 545 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: appreciating traditional knowledge understanding how it could be applied to 546 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: Western medicine. But also I think that he had a 547 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, a deep respect for the cultures that he 548 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: interacted with and was incredibly skilled at writing about them 549 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: in a way that would allow people to recognize why 550 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: they were important. We'll be talking more after we hear 551 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: this ad. So watching your episodes of Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, I 552 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: see this kind of bouncing back and forth. They're not 553 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: just bouncing, sort of integrating and sometimes tension between the 554 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: episodes and the parts that focus on the modern day scientists, 555 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: whether underground or operating above ground, but then in other 556 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: episodes going and looking at traditional uses, whether it's eboga 557 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: and gabon, whether it's something in Argentina, whether it's something 558 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: in Mexico or peyote, what have you. And I see, 559 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: as I said before, some of the reverence I sometimes 560 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: see when you're talking to the kind of modern day chemists, 561 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: both you know, illegal and legal. And then there's this 562 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of rye look you have when you're engaged in 563 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: some of the more indigenous practices. In particular, they're great 564 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: belief that the plant is somehow fundament only different then 565 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: the drug that it contains, and that can be easily 566 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: synthesized in a laboratory. Am I reading you right? There 567 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: is there something in particular that you're referring to. There's 568 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: part of this whole debate or discussion between the natural 569 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: versus synthetic. You and I were both at this Horizons 570 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: conference in New York in late and you know that's 571 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: part of what goes there, you know, is is there 572 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: something fundamentally different between peyote and mescal in between psilocybin 573 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: produced synthetically and mushrooms the issue of five M e 574 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: O d M T And you're making the case, you know, like, 575 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: let's save the toad, right if all human beings descend 576 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: on the Sonoran desert or Arizona or whatever and destroy 577 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: the toad, so just people should shift to the synthetic, 578 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: and people are having very strong reactions against that. And 579 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: then I think maybe the other part of that is 580 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: is some of your skepticisms sometimes about the role of 581 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: the shaman shame it. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, 582 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: these are all very very complicated issues that have to 583 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: be assassed on a case by case basis, because there 584 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,959 Speaker 1: are definitely instances where a single alkaloid does not effectively 585 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: replicate the effect of a plant, and there are other 586 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: instances where it does. So it really depends on what 587 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: you're talking about. In the case of buffo al various venom, 588 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: it's clear to me, based on all published chemical analyzes 589 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: that the only tripped to me in present in that 590 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 1: venom that could be responsible for the effect that people 591 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: are describing is five mm o d mt bfot is 592 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: present in trace concentrations. And I say this as somebody 593 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: who has actually used pure analytically confirmed bufton. It does 594 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: not produce the sort of visionary experience that most people 595 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: look for when they take a psychedelic. Nobody talks about 596 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: boufotonin and nobody is saying, oh, boutin, that's my favorite psychedelic. 597 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: And the reason is that it's incredibly nauseating. It doesn't 598 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: have the same visionary characteristics of something like d mt 599 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: or silicin or five mm e o d mt, And 600 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: so what people are interested in is a five mmo 601 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: d m T mediated effect. Then, at the same time, 602 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: you have this massive demand for toad venom that will 603 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: easily have catastrophic ecological consequences if everybody starts doing this, 604 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: and it's gonna look bad and it's going to be unnecessary. 605 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: And then you have this easy to synthesize chemical five 606 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: EMMYO d MT, and in this instance the choice is clear. 607 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: In other instances it's a bit more complicated. For example, 608 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: in peyote, there actually are other alkaloids that likely contribute 609 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: to the psychopharmacology in a meaningful way. The same is 610 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: true of eboga. In the case of psilocybin containing mushrooms, 611 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: it's actually closer to toad venom. Again where people say, oh, 612 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: but there's a study that found one femptogram of some 613 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: beta carbonene in a mushroom once, therefore, silicon or psilocybin 614 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: could never replicate the mushroom experience. Well, I don't think 615 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: that there's strong evidence that any of the other trip 616 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: to means present in silosabin containing mushrooms are major contributors. 617 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: So it's like I said, it's just you have to 618 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: look at it at a on a case by case basis. 619 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: And then the same is true when it comes to 620 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: the contributions of shamans. It depends on what the purpose is, 621 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: how it's being done, what culture you're in, why you're 622 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: doing it. I would never for a moment suggest that 623 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: the guidance of shamans is unimportant, especially in the cultures 624 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: where this is their way of life, in their way 625 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: of medicine. But I think that there is an idea 626 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: that became very popular, especially in New York um around 627 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: maybe let's say two thousand seven, eight nine, tenn twelve, 628 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: when ayahuasca was really gaining popularity, that in order for 629 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: this experience to be valid and authentic, it had to 630 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: be mediated by a scare quote traditional shaman. But why 631 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: why is it that, uh, somebody couldn't make their own 632 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: ayahuasca or make a sort of ayahuasca derivative with synthetic 633 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: d MT and a pharmaceutical m A o I. And 634 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: there's one really crucial component about this that doesn't get 635 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: brought up very much, and that is dosage. I think 636 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: the two most important issues when anybody uses a drug 637 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: are knowing what the drug is, the chemical identity of 638 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: what they're consuming, knowing that it actually is the drug 639 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: in question, and knowing what dosage of that drug they 640 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,959 Speaker 1: have consumed. Sometimes people will you approach me and they'll 641 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: act like I'm some kind of you know, super advanced 642 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: psycho knots who has great powers of being able to 643 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: withstand psychedelic experiences. And I assure you that is not 644 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: the case. The only power I have is being a 645 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: neurotic jew who is too afraid to use unmeasured doses 646 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: of things. And that one small protective attribute of not 647 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: wanting to consume unmeasured doses of unknown substances has made 648 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: all of my experiments infinitely more safe and comfortable. And 649 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: so when you're talking about plant drive substances, you lose 650 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: that ability to know exactly how much you're consuming and 651 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 1: the exact chemical identity of what is contained. And that 652 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: has you know, in some circumstances, that might be a 653 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: good thing. In many circumstances, that might be the only option. 654 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: But if the hope is to help as many people 655 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: as possible in a way that is repeatable, then I 656 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: think understanding the dose and identity of what is being 657 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: consumed is of paramount importance. Like just to give one 658 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: more example, suppose I go to an ayahuasca group at 659 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: a yoga studio in Manhattan, and I drink some brew 660 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: given to me by some guy, and lo and behold, 661 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: I have the most amazing experience of my life. I 662 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: unwind all of my problems. I suddenly feel energized and 663 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: rejuvenated and motivated and filled with love, and I'm ready 664 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: to to do what I have to do. And not 665 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: only that, I want the people that I love to 666 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: have the same experience. I want my father to have 667 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: this experience. I want my mother to have this experience. 668 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: But I can't give them that experience because I have 669 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: no idea what I took. And that's a problem. I think. 670 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: I think, you know, if, on the other hand, I 671 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: take let's say, sixty milligrams of synthetic DMT free base 672 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: one hour after taking three grams of mirams of miklobemide, 673 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: then that's repeatable, that's reproducible as far as these things 674 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: can be. And I can say, listen, that dosage was really, 675 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: really good. It was just right. It was the porridge 676 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: that's just right. I was for a moment in a threatening, 677 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: difficult place, but it didn't last too long and I 678 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: came out of it feeling strengthened. And I think those 679 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: data points are really useful. I think that this is 680 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: one of the great attributes of synthetic substances are working 681 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: with isolated chemicals, is this ability to know the dose 682 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: that you've consumed. It sounds boring and pedantic, even as 683 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: I'm saying this to you. I think, oh, this is 684 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: kind of boring to say, But despite it being slightly boring, 685 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: I think it's immensely important. Well you know, it's also 686 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you brought up a few points that I 687 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: came across. Well, you've talked about like the use of 688 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: I began in low doses in France some decades ago. 689 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we think about I began as one the 690 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,399 Speaker 1: most powerful psycholic substances there is. Or you talked about 691 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: people using m dm A like substances as antidepressants and 692 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: low doses. So there's these I mean, just say a 693 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: little more about those sorts of things which even I 694 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: had never heard about those ones. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, 695 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting that the pharmaceutical history of psychedelics, 696 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: uh pretty much has only existed in the realm of 697 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: micro dosing. This is something you never hear people talk about. 698 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: But the two let's say, psychedelic adjacent chemicals that have 699 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: been approved for psychiatric use, namely lambourne which was I 700 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: be gained that was used in France, and alpha ethel 701 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: tripped to me and, which was an antidepressant used in 702 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: the United States, were low doses of in the case 703 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: of alpha ethyl tripped to me in a sort of 704 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: m d M, a type serotonin releaser. And in the 705 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: case of ibgaine, it's ibegaine. And these were used at 706 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: low doses precisely because it was believed that some benefit 707 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: could be conferred without the disruptive effects of a high dose. 708 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: And now people talk about micro docing LSD or psilocybin, right, 709 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: And obviously there's you know with was micro docing taking 710 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: an amount fits so low you don't even a barely 711 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: aware of it, or taking a slightly higher dose it 712 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 1: might people a mini dosing. But what about what I began, 713 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: I mean, is micro docing I begain something that might 714 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: make some sense as far as you're concerned, Yes, it does. 715 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: And I say this with caution because it's it's hard 716 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: to talk about these things from a place of personal 717 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: experience or my intuitive beliefs without sounding like I'm saying, yeah, 718 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: I begain, everyone go out and micro dose at that 719 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: the way, And that's not what I want to say, 720 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: because I think that you know, there are dangers associated 721 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: with the use of ib gain, most of them are 722 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: limited to high dose use. Low doses probably do not 723 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: pose the same risk of cardio toxicity. And when I 724 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: say low dose, I'm talking about twenty milligrams of iby 725 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: gain hydrochloride or something of that nature. But I have 726 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: used low dose ib gain for long periods of time 727 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: in the past, and I did feel that it was beneficial. 728 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: Did I do a double blind, placebo controlled study. No, 729 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: this is just an intuitive feeling in the placebo effect 730 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: is very strong. So I don't want to make any 731 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: kind of grand claims about micro dosing or I begain 732 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: micro dosing in particular, but that is something that has 733 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: been reported by a number of people like Tim Ferris 734 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: as well. And I think that at low doses I began, 735 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: it's not psychedelic at all, you know, it really feels 736 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 1: more like a stimulant at those doses. So this is 737 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: not really the same as a sort of effect that 738 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: people described from low doses of psilocybin or LSD, where 739 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: at least in my experience, you often do get a 740 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: low psychedelic type effect, but even that's debate. Well, that's 741 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: one problem with micro dosing is there's a precise definition. 742 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: For some people. Micro dosing is a sub perceptible dose 743 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: where there is no psychedelic effect by definition, and for 744 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: other people the whole point is having a low psychedelic 745 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: effect with maybe a little bit of supposed increase in 746 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: creativity or empathy or something of that nature. It makes 747 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: me wonder, you know, I think, you know one of 748 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: the issues involving because you don't get that much into 749 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: the issue of opioids and heroin, opium and all that 750 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But you know, one of the questions 751 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: with heroin was for people who had predicted to street 752 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: heroin and for whom methanon main inance was not working, 753 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: boupern orphane was not making as a substitution. Uh, that's 754 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 1: they thought about, Well, when I try pharmaceutical heroin and 755 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: then you know, heroin is so demonized as a name 756 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: and has all that kind of you know, fear around it. 757 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,280 Speaker 1: So people did controlled double blind studies where they tried 758 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 1: injectable heroin versus injectable method on everybody can tell the difference. 759 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: Injectible heroin versus injectable morphine. Everybody can tell the difference. 760 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: Then they did injectable heroin versus injectable hydromorphone, which is 761 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: commonly known as deluded and experienced heroin users who have 762 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: been using heroin off and on illegally for years, if 763 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: not decades, who swore they could always tell which was 764 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: which in a controlled double blind study, cannot tell the difference. Now, 765 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: I wonder has that happened? Did all these sorts of 766 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: control double blind studies with experienced users comparing some of 767 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: these psychedelic substances either in a synthetic form or in 768 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: a specifically dosed natural form. Yes, Actually there is a 769 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: brilliant study that was done. I think it was done 770 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins where they actually did exactly what you're describing. 771 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 1: They took not normal people experience drug users. They didn't 772 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: use the word psychoat but psychonaut types, people who in 773 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: some instances had I think close to a hundred experiences, 774 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: and they said, can you tell the difference between d 775 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: x M, the active ingredient in robotas in and psilocybin, 776 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: and believe it or not, even among experienced people, they 777 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,839 Speaker 1: sometimes could not tell the difference between the two of them. 778 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes yeah, I think it was maybe, um, maybe 779 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: like something like thirty or forty percent of the time 780 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: people mistook d x M for a classical psychedelic and 781 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: I think that that's a really and don't quote me 782 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: on that, but I think that's a really interesting finding 783 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: because you often hear people talking about these miniscule differences. Oh, 784 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: I can tell the difference between Soloso by cubens has 785 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: grown on brown rice flower versus Soloso by cubense is 786 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: grown on ry berries or something like that. And then 787 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: I look at the study and think, Wow, people, uh, 788 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: in many instances can't tell the difference between completely different 789 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: chemicals in completely different pharmacological classes. So I think that 790 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: people dramatically overestimate their ability to distinguish these things. And 791 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: that's normal. I mean, that's just the way it goes. Right. 792 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: You take LSD one time and you have a great experience, 793 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: and you take LSD another time and you have a 794 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: bad experience, and maybe you think, oh, that was bad 795 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: LSD because you're not recognizing your own contribution to the experience. 796 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: You know, you also make some very powerful points, and 797 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 1: that once again going back to the dose issue and 798 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: also the context. You know, good old drugs set and setting. 799 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: You know, the phrase coined I think by Timothy Leary 800 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: and developed by Andy While and then really researched by 801 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: Norman Zinberg at Harvard. But I mean, in the issue 802 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: of stimulants, you're not just looking at psychedelics. You're looking 803 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 1: at things like amphetamine, meth amphetamine. And I think you're 804 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: making the point which I've made over the years as well, 805 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,359 Speaker 1: but you did in a really nice way that amphetamine 806 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 1: meth amphetamine. I mean, the truth is millions of teenagers, 807 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: especially boys, and it sounded like yourself when you talk 808 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: about your old friend riddle In, you know, have been using, 809 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 1: have been given these drugs to deal with their A 810 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: D D and all this sort of stuff, sometimes correctly prescribed, 811 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: sometimes not so much. But that basically, if I have 812 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: this right, if you were to take that riddle In 813 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: or these other stimulants that they give, you know, teenage 814 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: boys to help them behave better and focus better, and 815 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: if you were to smoke them or inject them, they 816 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: would be a lot like we perceive of meth amphetamine 817 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: and the big bad myth amphetamine being used out in 818 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: the world, crank what have you. And conversely, if you 819 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: were to take that meth amphetamine that people are smoking 820 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: and injecting and supposedly is instantly addictive, all this sort 821 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: of stuff, but to use it orally at the dose 822 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: level that teenagers are using it in a prescribed way 823 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: that it essentially would be no different than the riddle, 824 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: and they're taking Did I get that right? Oh? Yes, yeah, 825 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,720 Speaker 1: and and I think again people dramatically overestimate their ability 826 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: to tell the difference between these things. When people talk 827 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: about meth amphetamine, they talk about the effects as if 828 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 1: they are intrinsic pharmacological properties of the molecule, as opposed 829 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,320 Speaker 1: to products of the culture in which they're used. So 830 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: if you take adderall, first of all, that means that 831 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: you're affluent and have your life organized enough that you 832 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: are going to a psychiatrist and receiving a prescription for 833 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: something and filling that prescription at a pharmacy and taking 834 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: measured doses that have been dispensed to you. Well, that 835 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: already says something about the sort of person that you are. 836 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 1: If you're taking methamphetamine, you're somebody who's comfortable finding a 837 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: drug dealer, who will use a substance that has not 838 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: been analyzed at an unmeasured dose, and you're going to 839 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 1: smoke or snort it. That also says something about you. 840 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: There was a study that showed that there was some 841 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 1: brain damage associated with continuous high dose use of ketamine. 842 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 1: And I was looking at the study and the person 843 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 1: I think had used ketamine continuously for something like two 844 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,880 Speaker 1: years and to begin, I wouldn't be all that surprised 845 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: if using ketamine every day for two years did some 846 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,360 Speaker 1: kind of damage. I could also see it not doing damage. 847 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:16,759 Speaker 1: I think it would really depend on the dose and 848 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: the circumstances. But the first question that has to be 849 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 1: asked is, well, what kind of person uses ketamine every 850 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: day for two years? Might there already be something neurologically 851 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: different about that person before the onset of the drug use. 852 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: The same is also true for somebody that uses m 853 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: d M A every day for years. Might that be 854 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,520 Speaker 1: a different type of person because a normal person wouldn't 855 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: want to do that even if they had the opportunity. 856 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: So there are so many variables that have to be 857 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: considered when talking about the toxicity of these substances, and 858 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: when it comes to methamphetamine and emphetamine, I think the 859 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: primary variable as a cultural one. One is a substance 860 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: that's used by affluent people. The other is used by 861 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: people who are probably in a little bit of a 862 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: difficult place in their life and they're potentially going to 863 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,720 Speaker 1: be using it in a slightly more self destructive manner, 864 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: if only because it's not done in the context of 865 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: medical use, which also changes the way that people think 866 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,320 Speaker 1: about their drug use. I mean, this is a immense 867 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: fractal of complexity, which is sometimes why when people talk 868 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: about the subject of drugs as if it's some kind 869 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: of like niche issue, I think, no, this is this 870 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,040 Speaker 1: is like the interplay of society and culture and history 871 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: and psychology and neurology and everything else. I mean, it's 872 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: like nothing less complicated than the entirety of human consciousness. 873 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,799 Speaker 1: It's a big deal. So there's no you know, reductive 874 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 1: answer like, oh, well, it's the methyl group. It's the 875 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 1: methyl group on the nitrogen that makes it slightly more 876 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: lipophilics so that it crosses the blood brain barrier more quickly, 877 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,839 Speaker 1: and it causes release of a little bit of serotonin, 878 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,560 Speaker 1: and that's why it's different. No, no, no, no, no, 879 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: there are so many other factors at play, even if 880 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: the things that I just said are true. Yeah, you know, 881 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: I mean was just saying about the interdisciplinary nature of 882 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: drugs and drug studies as well. I mean, if you 883 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,880 Speaker 1: think about it in the university you could probably have 884 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 1: an entire course on psychoactive drugs in the large majority 885 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,680 Speaker 1: of the departments in the humanities, the sciences, and the 886 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,960 Speaker 1: social sciences. Right. I mean, this subject just crosses so 887 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: many boundaries in part of what comes through your show. 888 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:16,880 Speaker 1: And let me ask you a little more about this 889 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,359 Speaker 1: because and I have to ask you this. I mean, 890 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: here you are making these twenty fantastic episodes of Hamilton's Armacopeia, 891 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: you know, for Vice HBO, which I strongly encourage our 892 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:31,239 Speaker 1: listeners to watch. And if I ask why you l 893 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: ended up becoming a documentary maker as opposed to say 894 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: going for a pH d and researching and in that 895 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: way or something like that, there is the fact that 896 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,280 Speaker 1: you're the only child of a pretty famous documentary maker, 897 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 1: Errol Morris. I remember, for seeing his thing Fog of 898 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 1: War about Robert McNamara, the Secretary of State under Kennedy 899 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,800 Speaker 1: and Johnson, and then the one about Rumsfield, you know, 900 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 1: the Secretary of State for the second George Bush. Do 901 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,320 Speaker 1: you think you would have embarked pursuing this issue the 902 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 1: way you have if you hadn't had a dad who's 903 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: documentary maker. I think it's possible, believe it or not, 904 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,000 Speaker 1: because this was never what I wanted to do. In 905 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: the early documentaries, I was actually really thinking of myself 906 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,800 Speaker 1: as a writer, and I think it was partially because 907 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 1: I was resistant to the idea of doing this, because 908 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want to enter the same arena of my father. 909 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 1: So I was thinking, yeah, I'm I'm interested in the science, 910 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,800 Speaker 1: I'm interested in writing about this. Documentaries are not really 911 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,800 Speaker 1: what I want to do. But the reality was that 912 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: this was at a time when YouTube was just starting 913 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,759 Speaker 1: to take off, when the Internet was going from a 914 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: place it was primarily text based to something that was 915 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: very much video based, and there were huge amounts of 916 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 1: resources being dedicated at many different media organizations, but vice 917 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,360 Speaker 1: in particular to pivoting to video, that was, you know, 918 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: the big thing. And what I quickly realized was that 919 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,279 Speaker 1: if I wanted to tell a story, there would be 920 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,400 Speaker 1: more resources to tell that story if I made a documentary. 921 00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,360 Speaker 1: So at first it was a purely pragmatic decision, but 922 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,560 Speaker 1: as I continued doing it, I started to really appreciate 923 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: the artistic elements of it, and yeah, I think it's, 924 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, a great way to tell stories. I think 925 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:09,920 Speaker 1: that it reaches a lot more people. It's sort of 926 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: like podcasts for that matter, you know. It's people are 927 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: more likely to listen to something than they are to 928 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 1: read something these days, and so it was a way 929 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: to reach tens of millions of people that probably would 930 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,640 Speaker 1: not have read an article about the same subject. He 931 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: got me wondering whether if the father didn't influence the 932 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,760 Speaker 1: son that much, did the son influenced the father because 933 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,480 Speaker 1: two of your dad's recent productions. One was the multi 934 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: part episode called Wormwood right about the CIA scientist who 935 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,360 Speaker 1: was given unknowingly to himself a psychedelic and lands up 936 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: either committing suicide or being killed. And then more recently 937 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,760 Speaker 1: his Peace Psychedelic drug story about one of Timothy Leary's 938 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: lovers and her story. Do you think that you had 939 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:53,799 Speaker 1: an impact or do you know if you had an 940 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,359 Speaker 1: impact on your dad? Getting a little more curious, Yes, 941 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 1: I certainly had, and I worked on both of those projects, 942 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: so yes, he certainly did how of an impact, And 943 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,400 Speaker 1: I did play a big role in making my father 944 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: interested in psychedelics, And he also played a big role 945 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,760 Speaker 1: in making me interested in psychoactive drugs because he's interested 946 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,040 Speaker 1: in that subject as well. So I think you know, 947 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,319 Speaker 1: I'm very close with my father, and we talk every 948 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: day and we talk about these things. So yeah, I 949 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 1: think that there's been an interplay between both of us. 950 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,360 Speaker 1: The one reason that I'm sometimes hesitant to talk about 951 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: him is that he's usually brought up in the context 952 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 1: of diminishing the work that I've done. People will say 953 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,799 Speaker 1: something like, oh, he's only doing this because his father 954 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: made documentaries, And that's all fine and good. If somebody 955 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,839 Speaker 1: wants to, you know, try to take me down a notch, 956 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,840 Speaker 1: that's fine, whatever. But the reason that I don't like 957 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: it is that I'm afraid it's sort of discouraging to people. 958 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,240 Speaker 1: They might think, oh, I can't make a documentary about 959 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,760 Speaker 1: this unless my father has made documentaries, And I assure 960 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 1: you that's not the case. Advice published hundreds and hundreds 961 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: and hundreds of drug documentaries and continues to do so 962 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: to this day, and the vast majority of them were 963 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,480 Speaker 1: not made by people whose fathers were documentary filmmakers. So 964 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 1: I assure you that that is not a a prerequisite 965 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,800 Speaker 1: to getting involved in this world. And although I won't 966 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: deny that it played a role in my own interests, 967 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,040 Speaker 1: and that I of course learned an enormous amount growing 968 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: up around him and watching him make so many of 969 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,719 Speaker 1: his documentaries, But I don't think it's you know, necessary. 970 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:16,960 Speaker 1: I learned a lot, but I think that I also 971 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,960 Speaker 1: primarily learned about these processes on my own because I 972 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,320 Speaker 1: was doing it in a way that was so different 973 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: from anything that he was doing. I mean, he had, 974 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,359 Speaker 1: you know, huge crews and sound stages and all sorts 975 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 1: of resources. My early work was done, you know, single 976 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,480 Speaker 1: camera on mini DV tapes with just me and two 977 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: other people. So it was a very different type of 978 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 1: filmmaking and a very different style of production as the 979 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,200 Speaker 1: son of a famous documentary maker. But obviously there must 980 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,320 Speaker 1: have been other influences in the way you've proceeded to 981 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,520 Speaker 1: become a documentary Who were those and how so. There's 982 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 1: a filmmaker named Jason Cone who made a documentary called 983 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,120 Speaker 1: Manda Bolla that I really admire because it tells this 984 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,600 Speaker 1: strange story worry about corruption in Brazil, tying it into 985 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,640 Speaker 1: a plastic surgeon and a frog farm and a private 986 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,680 Speaker 1: security force and all these different superficially unrelated topics, and 987 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 1: it figures out a way to tie them into a 988 00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:24,759 Speaker 1: richer fabric of this strange phenomenon of corruption and frogs 989 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: and kidnapping. And I was really inspired by that movie 990 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,640 Speaker 1: in many ways because I think that you often find 991 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,040 Speaker 1: similar phenomena in the world of drugs, where they're all 992 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:39,919 Speaker 1: these superficially unrelated topics that then merge in this hub 993 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 1: of a single psychoactive drug. One instance would be the 994 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,919 Speaker 1: episode about man dracks or kalude in South Africa, where 995 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,360 Speaker 1: you have this substance, but it's also intimately connected to 996 00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 1: the chemical and biological weapons program of the apartheid government. 997 00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,759 Speaker 1: It's also connected to the poaching of abalone and to 998 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:06,400 Speaker 1: the Chinese trade in the Abylonia as a luxury item 999 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: and aphrodisiac, which then connects back to the clandestine synthesis 1000 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,320 Speaker 1: of metha loan. So it's all these strange things, but 1001 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 1: when you weave it all together, it's all connected. And 1002 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,160 Speaker 1: I really admire that film in particular, but there's so 1003 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: many different filmmakers that I admire, but in terms of 1004 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: documentary filmmaking, I think that's a really stand out example. 1005 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,200 Speaker 1: And of course I am very influenced by my father's work. 1006 00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,640 Speaker 1: I am a great admirer of his films, I've watched 1007 00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:32,960 Speaker 1: all of them many many times. I was present while 1008 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: he was making a good number of them, and I 1009 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,080 Speaker 1: think that he's, you know, a really brilliant filmmaker. Well, 1010 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I gotta say, I just thought you were 1011 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 1: incredibly gutsy, I mean, even courageous with a lot of 1012 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,640 Speaker 1: stuff you do. I mean, you know, you're going you're 1013 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,320 Speaker 1: interviewing some guy in his meth lab and it looks 1014 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,400 Speaker 1: like you're partly where he's gonna blow you all up. 1015 00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,040 Speaker 1: And then you go into Mexico and interviewing some very 1016 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: illegal meth producer in places of the world where things 1017 00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,640 Speaker 1: can get quite violent, and you're doing drugs. You know, 1018 00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:01,760 Speaker 1: you say how important it is to know that does 1019 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:03,800 Speaker 1: so what you're doing. But you're doing these plant drugs 1020 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:05,880 Speaker 1: and having people just put stuff into your mouth and 1021 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: just going along with it. I mean, were you ever 1022 00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: scared when you were doing this stuff? Yes, I was, 1023 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,560 Speaker 1: But my primary fear was not for myself, but for 1024 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,560 Speaker 1: the people that I was interviewing. That was always the concern, 1025 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,400 Speaker 1: because the reality was, in most of these instances, I 1026 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,160 Speaker 1: was okay. There were times that I took risks. For example, 1027 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: when I synthesized a large quantity of five mmy o 1028 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: d MT in Mexico. You know, five mmy o d 1029 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,720 Speaker 1: MP is not explicitly a controlled substance in Mexico. And 1030 00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,120 Speaker 1: I did a lot of legal review and consulted with 1031 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 1: many lawyers before embarking on that project. But the reality was, 1032 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,280 Speaker 1: as I was saying earlier, if people want to funk 1033 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,560 Speaker 1: with you, they'll figure out a way, and you don't 1034 00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,640 Speaker 1: want to depend on precise interpretation of the law if 1035 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,200 Speaker 1: you're in a Mexican prison or an American prison for 1036 00:58:55,280 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 1: that matter, Because I've known people that were arrested and 1037 00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,200 Speaker 1: convicted for synthesizing drugs that they never synthesized. I mean, 1038 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,680 Speaker 1: this happens. I had a friend who was a chemist 1039 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,160 Speaker 1: who was synthesizing a psychedelic called two C C and 1040 00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 1: his lab was rated. They seized everything and they said, well, 1041 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,720 Speaker 1: you were synthesizing two C B. They didn't say you 1042 00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,600 Speaker 1: were synthesizing to C C and it is an analog 1043 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,920 Speaker 1: of tow C B under the Federal Analog Act. They 1044 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 1: just said, this is to C B. This is a 1045 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:33,840 Speaker 1: chemically different substance, where the chlorine is a bromine. In 1046 00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,920 Speaker 1: the case of two C B. It's totally different molecule, 1047 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: but they just said it's the same and he went 1048 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: to prison for it. So trying to go by the 1049 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,120 Speaker 1: rule of the law doesn't always work in your favor, 1050 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,120 Speaker 1: and there are always risks associated with this work. And I, 1051 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,360 Speaker 1: of course I am not a self destructive person. I 1052 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,240 Speaker 1: never wanted to get in trouble for any of this, 1053 00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,480 Speaker 1: and sometimes I did have to take risks, but I 1054 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,640 Speaker 1: genuinely believe that the greatest risks were those taken by 1055 00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,680 Speaker 1: the people that spoke with me. And my greatest fear 1056 01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,640 Speaker 1: was not for myself, but for them, that they might 1057 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,000 Speaker 1: get in trouble as a result of sharing what they knew. 1058 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Because sure, I might get in trouble, but I'll get 1059 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,320 Speaker 1: a lawyer. I'll figure out a way to get out 1060 01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 1: of it, most likely, because essentially everything I did was 1061 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,640 Speaker 1: technically legal. I mean, that was one line that I drew. 1062 01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,440 Speaker 1: There's little things that you can look at throughout the process. 1063 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,240 Speaker 1: For example, I'm never helping anyone do anything. If I'm 1064 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,560 Speaker 1: in a lab, I don't touch anything, because if I 1065 01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:33,840 Speaker 1: so much as hand them a glass of water, then 1066 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,000 Speaker 1: that could be legally construed as me somehow, you know, 1067 01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,640 Speaker 1: aiding and abetting the manufacturing and controlled substances. But it's 1068 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,080 Speaker 1: legal to be in the presence of somebody committing a 1069 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,920 Speaker 1: crime as long as you are in no way assisting 1070 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,760 Speaker 1: that process. So I was protected. But if something had 1071 01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,360 Speaker 1: gone wrong, things could have been very bad for the 1072 01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,760 Speaker 1: people that spoke with me, and I'm grateful that that 1073 01:00:57,960 --> 01:00:59,960 Speaker 1: did not occur. TOD just be spending a lot of 1074 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,800 Speaker 1: time with vices or HBO's legal departments, so that you know, 1075 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,000 Speaker 1: it was an enormous, enormous amount of time arguing with 1076 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,880 Speaker 1: lawyers who had never taken a chemistry class, where they'd say, well, 1077 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,440 Speaker 1: five m O d m T is the same thing 1078 01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,280 Speaker 1: as d MT and I'd say, no, it isn't. It's 1079 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,040 Speaker 1: five methoxy d m T and The'd say, well, that's 1080 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,440 Speaker 1: that contains d MT and I'd say, no, it doesn't. 1081 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,080 Speaker 1: It doesn't contain d m T at all, and they'd say, well, yeah, 1082 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: it does. It as d m T in the name, 1083 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,680 Speaker 1: and I'd say, okay, Well what if I call it, uh, 1084 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,240 Speaker 1: what if I call it h O N N trimethyl serotonin? 1085 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 1: Then is it legal? Then is it okay? And I 1086 01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,160 Speaker 1: realized that all that mattered was the name. Because O 1087 01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,360 Speaker 1: N N trimethyl serotonin and five mm O d m 1088 01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,920 Speaker 1: T are the same chemical. The only difference is that 1089 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,360 Speaker 1: when you're naming them, one doesn't include d m T, 1090 01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,440 Speaker 1: and that was what they were afraid of. So it 1091 01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: was a mess. It was very complicated. It required endless 1092 01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,040 Speaker 1: negotiation about what could and could not be done. Um 1093 01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:00,360 Speaker 1: and one of the reasons that I stopped making the 1094 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:04,360 Speaker 1: show was because it was so complicated and my fear 1095 01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,120 Speaker 1: that something might go wrong. You know. I feel that 1096 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,120 Speaker 1: I was very lucky to have done all the things 1097 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,000 Speaker 1: that I did, and to have done it in such 1098 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,440 Speaker 1: a way that not only were people not hurt, that 1099 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,520 Speaker 1: many people benefited from it, but I think that it 1100 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,480 Speaker 1: was maybe only a matter of time before something bad happened. 1101 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,160 Speaker 1: When it came to picking the twenty different subjects, was 1102 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,160 Speaker 1: that basically your decision or a team effort. It was 1103 01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,080 Speaker 1: my decision, and there was a brilliant team that I 1104 01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:36,480 Speaker 1: worked with who played a huge role in the construction 1105 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,000 Speaker 1: of these projects. I mean, it was certainly not me 1106 01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 1: alone at the end, you know, there were lots of 1107 01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:48,360 Speaker 1: brilliant editors and producers and cinematographers, sound people, lots of 1108 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:50,920 Speaker 1: people played a big, big role in the creation of 1109 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,800 Speaker 1: these projects. But often there were ideas things that I 1110 01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:59,120 Speaker 1: wanted to do, but for whatever reason, they were impossible, 1111 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,640 Speaker 1: and so it was a hunstant reshuffling and renegotiation of 1112 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: how to tell these stories. And sometimes the stories just 1113 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,040 Speaker 1: couldn't be told. There were lots of stories that I 1114 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,280 Speaker 1: wanted to tell or things that I wanted to film. 1115 01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:14,040 Speaker 1: For example, wanting to film the clandestine synthesis of LSD 1116 01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,040 Speaker 1: simply was impossible, So I filmed David Nichols making an 1117 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,680 Speaker 1: LSD derivative at u n C Chapel Hill. So yeah, 1118 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,880 Speaker 1: there were things that couldn't be done, and for what 1119 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:28,040 Speaker 1: it's worth, I do plan to continue with this documentary 1120 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,160 Speaker 1: work at some point in the future. I've now just 1121 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:34,120 Speaker 1: decided to shift my emphasis to lab work and chemistry 1122 01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,480 Speaker 1: because also not to mention the fact that making these 1123 01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:41,200 Speaker 1: projects during the pandemic was a nightmare. I will never 1124 01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,280 Speaker 1: forget and it would be nice for the world to 1125 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,760 Speaker 1: stabilize a little bit before getting back into that sort 1126 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,920 Speaker 1: of work. Maybe that's a naive hope. I don't know 1127 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,360 Speaker 1: what are the one or two your most itching to 1128 01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:58,720 Speaker 1: do when you get back into documentary making or filmmaking. Well, 1129 01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's so there's so many. I was very 1130 01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,240 Speaker 1: interested in doing something about two c B and the 1131 01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 1: use of two c B in South America because most 1132 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:14,040 Speaker 1: of the clandestine chemists that I interviewed were in the 1133 01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:20,480 Speaker 1: United States or Europe, and this culture of admiring the 1134 01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,840 Speaker 1: work of clandestine chemists doesn't exist in a lot of 1135 01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,360 Speaker 1: the world. Yet there are people in those places as 1136 01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,680 Speaker 1: well who are making the same sacrifices. And I was curious, well, 1137 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,120 Speaker 1: what is the two ce B chemist in South America 1138 01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,320 Speaker 1: think about what they're doing? And also seeing different instances 1139 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:37,880 Speaker 1: of people making the same drugs in different countries. What 1140 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:42,680 Speaker 1: is it to find somebody in Russia who's making synthetic cannabinoids. 1141 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:47,880 Speaker 1: What is it like to talk to somebody who's making 1142 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:54,760 Speaker 1: methamphetamine in China. Let's take a break here and go 1143 01:04:54,880 --> 01:05:07,040 Speaker 1: to an ad. Let me ask you this. I mean, 1144 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:08,560 Speaker 1: I know it's always a crazy question to ask you 1145 01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,640 Speaker 1: what are your favorite drugs? Because so much is dependent 1146 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,600 Speaker 1: upon drugs set and setting in context. The one that 1147 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:18,160 Speaker 1: you just you know, exalted about was Zeno. Tell me 1148 01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,840 Speaker 1: about Zeno? Well, Zeno is very interesting to me. I 1149 01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,080 Speaker 1: was friends with somebody named Matt Bowden. Who are you 1150 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,680 Speaker 1: familiar with Mat Bowden? I know that name, yeah, but 1151 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,720 Speaker 1: tell me more. He was a very fascinating figure, really 1152 01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:36,280 Speaker 1: a drug policy advocate in New Zealand who was responsible 1153 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:41,240 Speaker 1: for what was an immensely progressive change in the law 1154 01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:46,440 Speaker 1: where people could sell psychoactive drugs without any medical pretense 1155 01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:50,600 Speaker 1: whatsoever in New Zealand. So this wasn't uh, synthetic cannabinoids 1156 01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:55,800 Speaker 1: to treat glaucoma or PTSD or treatment resistant depression. This 1157 01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,040 Speaker 1: was synthetic cannabinoids to get high. And he created a 1158 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:05,480 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical company with the intention of creating better recreational drugs 1159 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,000 Speaker 1: with no medical pretense whatsoever. And I thought, wow, that 1160 01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,240 Speaker 1: is so progressive, that is so amazing. I was ready 1161 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,760 Speaker 1: to move to New Zealand to work in his lab 1162 01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:16,919 Speaker 1: because it was so revolutionary. I mean, to this day, 1163 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,720 Speaker 1: nothing like that has ever been done. And when I 1164 01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 1: was in New Zealand at his lab, he had this 1165 01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,600 Speaker 1: brilliant pharmacologist who work for him. I really liked. It 1166 01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,880 Speaker 1: was sort of a you know, very much like Alexander 1167 01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,480 Speaker 1: Shulgin type. And he had bought a tank of zen 1168 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,120 Speaker 1: on gas. This was in two thousand fourteen, and he said, 1169 01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:37,760 Speaker 1: have you heard of this stuff? And I had, I'd 1170 01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,440 Speaker 1: read about it. I knew that it was an anesthetic. 1171 01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,480 Speaker 1: I knew that it was an n MDA antagonist like 1172 01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:46,920 Speaker 1: nitrous oxide. And I also knew that it was immensely expensive. 1173 01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:49,680 Speaker 1: It's so expensive that a single inhalation of this gas 1174 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,920 Speaker 1: could cost hundreds of dollars. So not the kind of 1175 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:57,120 Speaker 1: thing that you typically have the opportunity to use. And 1176 01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,600 Speaker 1: I was so excited. You know, it was right before 1177 01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,640 Speaker 1: I was in New Zealand. And he said, all right, um, 1178 01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:03,960 Speaker 1: do you have a balloon or do you have anything 1179 01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:06,920 Speaker 1: that you can fill up? And we were looking around 1180 01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,080 Speaker 1: for anything, a balloon, a glove that we couldn't find anything. Eventually, 1181 01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:16,440 Speaker 1: our soundman had a condom because all sound people typically 1182 01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:21,760 Speaker 1: carry condoms with them to keep the lavalier protected from 1183 01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:23,520 Speaker 1: rain when you're filming in the rain. This is like 1184 01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,280 Speaker 1: a sound person trick. And so he said, all right, 1185 01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,960 Speaker 1: we'll use a condom and build this condom with zene 1186 01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:33,080 Speaker 1: on gas and inhaled it. And it was, you know, 1187 01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,360 Speaker 1: on one hand, very similar to nitrous oxide, but also 1188 01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:41,280 Speaker 1: this amazing, amazing experiences, almost as if a switch of raw, 1189 01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:46,320 Speaker 1: unadulterated euphoria were flipped and suddenly you felt kind of 1190 01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:50,200 Speaker 1: maximal pleasure. And to think that this is coming from 1191 01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,919 Speaker 1: a gas that is present in every breath that we take. 1192 01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,000 Speaker 1: This is a natural component of our atmosphere. It's point 1193 01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:59,640 Speaker 1: zero zero zero zero zero five percent of earth atmosphere. 1194 01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,760 Speaker 1: And so it was this rare treat I got to 1195 01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,520 Speaker 1: inhale zing on gas. I'll never get to do that again. 1196 01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,480 Speaker 1: And then one day I got an email from somebody 1197 01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,960 Speaker 1: who said, Hey, I was in the sauna at the 1198 01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,520 Speaker 1: gym and I was talking with some guy who runs 1199 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,760 Speaker 1: a zen on gas clinic. Have you ever heard of 1200 01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,800 Speaker 1: that before? And I said, a zenon gas clinic? What 1201 01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:25,519 Speaker 1: is that? And can you get me this man's contact information? 1202 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,720 Speaker 1: I must talk to this person and and he said like, well, 1203 01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, like what you want me to find him? 1204 01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,240 Speaker 1: I don't think i'll ever see him again. I was like, 1205 01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,360 Speaker 1: we'll just try. If you ever see him at the gym, 1206 01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,720 Speaker 1: please tell him that I want to talk to him. 1207 01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 1: And then a few weeks later he got back in 1208 01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:40,960 Speaker 1: touch and he said, okay, all right, the guy, this 1209 01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:42,720 Speaker 1: is his phone number if you want to talk to him. 1210 01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 1: So I called him up, and as described, this person 1211 01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,600 Speaker 1: had built and opened a zenon gas clinic in the 1212 01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:54,400 Speaker 1: Czech Republic where people could inhale this gas, both for 1213 01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:58,640 Speaker 1: essentially recreational purposes but also for pseudo medical purposes. And 1214 01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,880 Speaker 1: I went to the Czech Republic like knowing very little. 1215 01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, at that time and really to this day, 1216 01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,920 Speaker 1: there was almost nothing written about this practice in the 1217 01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,840 Speaker 1: English language. This existed in Russia and in the Czech 1218 01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,880 Speaker 1: Republic and in a few other places, but in terms 1219 01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:17,360 Speaker 1: of English language reporting, there was nothing on it. And 1220 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:22,080 Speaker 1: everything that I observed in that clinic was something I 1221 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,640 Speaker 1: knew nothing about. I mean that that was kind of 1222 01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,240 Speaker 1: one of the great pleasures of working on these projects, 1223 01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:30,360 Speaker 1: was going somewhere to learn about something that I knew 1224 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:34,280 Speaker 1: nothing about and seeing this entire world unfold before me. 1225 01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:36,120 Speaker 1: But you know, when you go to the policy issue, 1226 01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you haven't focused as much on policy. I mean, 1227 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,400 Speaker 1: you're very critical of the drug war, but a zeen 1228 01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,840 Speaker 1: on one of those things where you say, thank god, 1229 01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,000 Speaker 1: this isn't so cheap that it could be made available 1230 01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,639 Speaker 1: over the counter or anybody wants it. That's an interesting question, 1231 01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:51,439 Speaker 1: and I think this kind of has reverberations. And you know, 1232 01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,519 Speaker 1: whenever anybody talks about legalizing all drugs, then the next 1233 01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,040 Speaker 1: question is, so, wait a second, you're saying that heroin 1234 01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,519 Speaker 1: should be available at the corner store. Well, you know 1235 01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,840 Speaker 1: what's next. And I think that the assumption when people 1236 01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,840 Speaker 1: make that, or when people ask that question, is if 1237 01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,680 Speaker 1: heroin were available at the corner store, wouldn't we all 1238 01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:14,720 Speaker 1: become heroin addicts? Wouldn't we all run directly to the 1239 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,120 Speaker 1: corner store and get heroin and injected into our veins 1240 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,040 Speaker 1: and ruin our lives right then and there. But I 1241 01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:24,040 Speaker 1: think the more measured responses that the answer is probably 1242 01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,720 Speaker 1: not right. As things currently stand, you can buy all 1243 01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:30,200 Speaker 1: sorts of drugs, ranging from robotus into nitrous oxide, and 1244 01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,679 Speaker 1: the majority of people feel no need to buy those 1245 01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,720 Speaker 1: things and develop substance abuse disorders as a result of 1246 01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,719 Speaker 1: their freedom to acquire them. But in the case of Xenon, 1247 01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,680 Speaker 1: what's really interesting, and I think this also has some 1248 01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:45,640 Speaker 1: broader implications in drug policy. We talk about the addictiveness 1249 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,960 Speaker 1: of a drug as if it is an intrinsic pharmacological factor. 1250 01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,960 Speaker 1: But back to the cultural dimensions of this. What if 1251 01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,680 Speaker 1: the most addictive drug in the world is also the 1252 01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:59,240 Speaker 1: most expensive drug in the world, then what well, then 1253 01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,800 Speaker 1: people just can't use it because nobody, unless they are 1254 01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:08,280 Speaker 1: a millionaire or a billionaire, could afford to become addicted 1255 01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:11,360 Speaker 1: to zenon. This is why you never hear about zeno addiction. 1256 01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,640 Speaker 1: This is why there isn't a single case report in 1257 01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,639 Speaker 1: the medical literature of zenon addiction. It's not because zenon 1258 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:21,960 Speaker 1: isn't addictive. It most certainly is, but nobody has access 1259 01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:25,960 Speaker 1: to it, and I don't think there are circumstances where 1260 01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,240 Speaker 1: large numbers of people could have access to it. And 1261 01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that if zenon clinics opened up then 1262 01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,320 Speaker 1: that we'd have an epidemic of zenon inhalation. I really 1263 01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,920 Speaker 1: just don't think we would because it's prohibitively expensive and 1264 01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:42,360 Speaker 1: that alters the way that people interact with a substance. Yeah, 1265 01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:44,040 Speaker 1: I mean, look at the thing I've struggled with is 1266 01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:47,720 Speaker 1: somebody's oftentimes identified as an advocate of drug legalization, but 1267 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,720 Speaker 1: you know, my resistance or reluctance to embrace some more 1268 01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:53,360 Speaker 1: sort of free market approach is that you don't need 1269 01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,880 Speaker 1: everybody to run out the story. You just need a 1270 01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:58,320 Speaker 1: lot of people to run out and to eventually get 1271 01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:00,840 Speaker 1: in trouble with that drug. And I look at something 1272 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,000 Speaker 1: like fentonyl obviously the great danger there now is that 1273 01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,519 Speaker 1: it is highly unregulated, and I think we should be 1274 01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:07,920 Speaker 1: looking at ways in which people who are you know, 1275 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,000 Speaker 1: going to buy drugs from the street if they can't 1276 01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:12,479 Speaker 1: get illegally, should be able to obtain what they want 1277 01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,400 Speaker 1: in a legal, regulated way. And that should include um 1278 01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:20,839 Speaker 1: fentanyl in aappropriate dose that's that's relatively safe, or heroin 1279 01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:23,720 Speaker 1: or what have you. But I do still have still 1280 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:28,160 Speaker 1: my reluctance about making these things you know, so easily available. 1281 01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,840 Speaker 1: And that's why I asked you if xenon were dramatically cheaper, 1282 01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:32,680 Speaker 1: where you could buy it for the same as a 1283 01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:36,000 Speaker 1: price of coffee or a joint or something like that, 1284 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,760 Speaker 1: and it is as delicious as you describe, you know, 1285 01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,200 Speaker 1: what would happen? Well, I mean, okay, a brief story 1286 01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:45,200 Speaker 1: about this. So I was at the clinic and and 1287 01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:48,320 Speaker 1: one of my journalistic tendencies is I don't like to 1288 01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,360 Speaker 1: say mean things about people I've never gotten into this 1289 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,439 Speaker 1: with the intention of trying to attack people or hurt 1290 01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,599 Speaker 1: people or take them down a notch, simply because there's 1291 01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,400 Speaker 1: enough stuff out there that I like that i'd prefer 1292 01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,320 Speaker 1: to talk about that. So in the instances where I 1293 01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:06,400 Speaker 1: have said something mean or critical, it was typically because 1294 01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:10,519 Speaker 1: I felt I had no choice, and zenon was one 1295 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:12,360 Speaker 1: of those instances. So, like I said, I go to 1296 01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: this clinic and I know nothing about any of this. 1297 01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I'm approaching it with a genuinely open mind and a 1298 01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,719 Speaker 1: charitable interpretation of everything that's going on. They have already 1299 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:25,439 Speaker 1: said some pseudo scientific things to me, but that's okay. 1300 01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:28,759 Speaker 1: I don't need to police the scientific validity of everything 1301 01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,360 Speaker 1: that everyone around me says. They say that the mechanism 1302 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,439 Speaker 1: of zenon is that the atom is so dense that 1303 01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,320 Speaker 1: it warps space time around the user. Okay, I don't 1304 01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:40,360 Speaker 1: think that that is the case. And if that were 1305 01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:44,120 Speaker 1: the case, wouldn't the wouldn't the tank itself have some 1306 01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:48,240 Speaker 1: kind of powerful gravitational field. But but that's fine. So 1307 01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:52,160 Speaker 1: we go to the clinic and they're giving zenon to children. Okay, 1308 01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:54,600 Speaker 1: that's a bit of a red flag right there. But 1309 01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:58,360 Speaker 1: people also give nitrous oxide to children, and nitrous oxide 1310 01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:01,479 Speaker 1: is far more toxic than zenon, although it's not very 1311 01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:04,439 Speaker 1: toxic as well when used under appropriate circumstances, given that 1312 01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:08,240 Speaker 1: you don't have certain genetic or dietary susceptibilities to be 1313 01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,880 Speaker 1: twelve depletion. So I think, okay, this is you know, 1314 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,160 Speaker 1: probably actually safer. And they give nitrous oxide as a 1315 01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:17,000 Speaker 1: dental anesthetic to children all the time. I can think 1316 01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:20,280 Speaker 1: of a charitable interpretation of what's happening here. It's done 1317 01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:22,960 Speaker 1: with the consent of the parents. It's a short duration, 1318 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,120 Speaker 1: low dose. You know, it wouldn't be something I would 1319 01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:28,439 Speaker 1: ever do, but maybe it's not necessarily bad. But that's 1320 01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,080 Speaker 1: the first red flag. Then the second red flag is 1321 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:33,160 Speaker 1: that a group of breath arians come to the clinic, 1322 01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:36,200 Speaker 1: and despite the fact that this is a general anesthetic, 1323 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,559 Speaker 1: nobody is fasting before using. This is a general anesthetic 1324 01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,559 Speaker 1: that can cause vomiting. And one of the breath arians 1325 01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:45,400 Speaker 1: these are people who claim to subsist on nothing but 1326 01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:49,360 Speaker 1: the uh. The chi or prana or energy of the 1327 01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:54,080 Speaker 1: universe is a scientific pseudoscientific belief that if you are 1328 01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:59,880 Speaker 1: sufficiently enlightened, you can sustain yourself with pure energetic ether 1329 01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:03,479 Speaker 1: that surrounds you in some way, and one of them 1330 01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,639 Speaker 1: almost asphyxiates on his vomit and dies. So that's red 1331 01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:09,599 Speaker 1: flag number two. And that's when I start to think, Okay, 1332 01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,880 Speaker 1: maybe there's something dangerous. Maybe it's irresponsible for me to 1333 01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:15,439 Speaker 1: report on this as if it's just a fun, little, 1334 01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,679 Speaker 1: uh weird thing that's happening in the Czech Republic. Then 1335 01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:22,360 Speaker 1: in the clinic, because you know, it is so expensive. 1336 01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:26,280 Speaker 1: It has to be administered in a recirculating breathing apparatus 1337 01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,120 Speaker 1: that scrubs c O two out of the line because 1338 01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:32,760 Speaker 1: with each excellation you introduce c O two. So they 1339 01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,760 Speaker 1: have special beads that absorb the CEO two that have 1340 01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,800 Speaker 1: a color changing indicator. So I want to film a 1341 01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:42,760 Speaker 1: time lapse of the beads changing color, just as a 1342 01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,479 Speaker 1: transitional shot to show the passage of time. So I 1343 01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:49,120 Speaker 1: asked my producer, Francis Lyons, I say, would you mind 1344 01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:53,040 Speaker 1: breathing into this mask for thirty minutes while I film 1345 01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:56,880 Speaker 1: a time lapse of the beads changing color. And one 1346 01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,320 Speaker 1: of the proprietors of the clinic comes and he says, 1347 01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, why doesn't he have some zenon as well? 1348 01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,080 Speaker 1: While he's doing it, and I say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, 1349 01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, I recognize how expensive this is. I recognize that, 1350 01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, this is a precious substance. You don't need 1351 01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,760 Speaker 1: to feel obligated to give it away to us. It's 1352 01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:16,240 Speaker 1: totally fine. He says, no, No, I insist. I insist 1353 01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:17,960 Speaker 1: that he has some zenon. So I asked the producer, 1354 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:20,160 Speaker 1: do you want zenon? He says yes, So I say, okay, 1355 01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,000 Speaker 1: if everybody wants this, then that's fine. You can, you know, 1356 01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:25,360 Speaker 1: give him some zenon and I'll film the time laps. 1357 01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:27,840 Speaker 1: So I'm filming the time laps in that room, and 1358 01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:29,800 Speaker 1: then I go into a different room to film something 1359 01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:33,960 Speaker 1: else with a different camera. I come back twenty minutes later, 1360 01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:39,200 Speaker 1: and my producer is unconscious inhaling zenon, and the person 1361 01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:41,840 Speaker 1: from the clinic who is supposed to be watching him 1362 01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:46,439 Speaker 1: is unconscious as well, inhaling zenon too. Both of them 1363 01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:50,040 Speaker 1: are in the room simultaneously unconscious, with nobody watching either 1364 01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:53,080 Speaker 1: of them. And that's when I thought, Okay, this is 1365 01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,880 Speaker 1: a problem. This is a serious problem. And we were 1366 01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:59,120 Speaker 1: about to leave. We were maybe twenty minutes from leaving 1367 01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:01,519 Speaker 1: for good, and I thought, if you can't wait twenty 1368 01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:05,799 Speaker 1: minutes to inhale Zenon. This is indicative of a problem. 1369 01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:10,599 Speaker 1: And then two weeks after that, that same person died 1370 01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:16,320 Speaker 1: inhaling Zenon. So I felt actually bad about the depiction 1371 01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:20,040 Speaker 1: of the clinic because the proprietors, Susanna was someone who's 1372 01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:22,439 Speaker 1: very generous to me, someone who I think was a 1373 01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,160 Speaker 1: genuinely good intention person, not someone that I would want 1374 01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:27,880 Speaker 1: to publicly attack or hurt her business. But when you 1375 01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,800 Speaker 1: talk about these things publicly, you have a responsibility to 1376 01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,040 Speaker 1: tell people the truth of what you found, even if 1377 01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:35,439 Speaker 1: it's negative. And I was in such a position at 1378 01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:38,280 Speaker 1: that time. Yeah, I mean, how when you think about 1379 01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:40,240 Speaker 1: because remember you also talked I think about a friend 1380 01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,640 Speaker 1: of yours in college, a good friend who had a 1381 01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,840 Speaker 1: schizophrenic break under the influence of psychedelics, and that that 1382 01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:47,840 Speaker 1: that didn't he didn't come back from it. How do 1383 01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:51,000 Speaker 1: you think about, you know, the casualties from some of 1384 01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:55,559 Speaker 1: this innovative psychedelic production. It's something that you know, I'm 1385 01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,519 Speaker 1: sure you share this feeling. If you think about this enough, 1386 01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:01,960 Speaker 1: you've already integra arated the negative dimensions of it into 1387 01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:05,160 Speaker 1: your understanding of the subject. So when something bad happens. 1388 01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,280 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily like a total revision of everything that 1389 01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,160 Speaker 1: I thought, because I already was aware that bad things happen. 1390 01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:17,080 Speaker 1: But you know, this year, I've lost for dear friends 1391 01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:23,880 Speaker 1: in either drug overdoses or drug adjacent circumstances, and it's 1392 01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:27,439 Speaker 1: been immensely painful for me, and it gives me some 1393 01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,360 Speaker 1: empathy for the way people respond in the wake of 1394 01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:35,599 Speaker 1: these these terrible tragedies. It's horrendously painful to lose someone 1395 01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:39,519 Speaker 1: you love, and I understand why that makes people anti drug. 1396 01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:43,080 Speaker 1: I get it. I get it completely. It's horrifying and 1397 01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:45,559 Speaker 1: you want to do anything that you can to prevent 1398 01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:47,840 Speaker 1: it from happening. But the problem is, I think that 1399 01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people use that grief and that energy 1400 01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:54,800 Speaker 1: in the wrong way and end up actually making things worse. Yeah. Well, 1401 01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, because there's the reality of what's 1402 01:18:57,120 --> 01:18:59,400 Speaker 1: going on, and then there's the way it's being presented 1403 01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:02,080 Speaker 1: in the media. Right, and we seem to be in 1404 01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:04,680 Speaker 1: this psychedelic renaissance, and it's a period maybe like the 1405 01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,200 Speaker 1: late fifties were, of almost all the media coverage being 1406 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,840 Speaker 1: positive and you've actually been you know, you get going 1407 01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:14,040 Speaker 1: on this around or something like that. So you've been 1408 01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:16,600 Speaker 1: doing it for ten or more years, there's been this 1409 01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:20,080 Speaker 1: major transition. I mean, how do you see what's happening 1410 01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:22,160 Speaker 1: or less ten years? And what are your thoughts about 1411 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,280 Speaker 1: where this may likely be headed? As it inevitable the 1412 01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:27,960 Speaker 1: pendulum swings. Are there ways to keep it from swinging 1413 01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:32,040 Speaker 1: too harshly back the other way? It is inevitable, the 1414 01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:35,920 Speaker 1: pendulum is gonna swing. You can't stop that swinging, right. 1415 01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:41,000 Speaker 1: It's not easy. And I am concerned. I'm concerned because 1416 01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:45,679 Speaker 1: I am already seeing the backlash starting and I felt 1417 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,200 Speaker 1: that there was a palpable sense of dread among many 1418 01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:53,120 Speaker 1: people that were speaking at the recent Horizons conference, and 1419 01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,680 Speaker 1: it worries me. It worries me because I see a 1420 01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,960 Speaker 1: lot of infighting emerging in the psychedelic community. I've heard 1421 01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:04,120 Speaker 1: from people that were activists in similar spaces not related 1422 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,920 Speaker 1: to psychedelic drugs, that at the cusp of some kind 1423 01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:12,280 Speaker 1: of major breakthrough and their activism. They've also reported similar 1424 01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:15,679 Speaker 1: things happening where there's a dramatic increase in in fighting 1425 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,479 Speaker 1: as people get closer and closer to the finish line. 1426 01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:21,759 Speaker 1: And I think that maybe that's something that will happen 1427 01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:25,840 Speaker 1: out of necessity. But it worries me to see how 1428 01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:30,599 Speaker 1: people externalize their anxieties. I mean, another example I think 1429 01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:34,560 Speaker 1: would be the way people treated the Sackler family and 1430 01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:37,600 Speaker 1: the opioid epidemic. Right, everybody hates the Sacklers. You go 1431 01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,120 Speaker 1: on Twitter and you say I think Arthur Sackler is 1432 01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,240 Speaker 1: an asshole, and everyone will applaud you for it, and 1433 01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:44,680 Speaker 1: that's all finding good. We stripped their names off of 1434 01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,600 Speaker 1: every institution they ever donated to. But one thing that 1435 01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:52,320 Speaker 1: concerned me about the activist emphasis on destroying the Sackler 1436 01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:56,400 Speaker 1: name was that it didn't focus on things that would 1437 01:20:56,439 --> 01:20:59,360 Speaker 1: actually help people who were struggling with addiction. It wasn't 1438 01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:03,280 Speaker 1: until one month ago that New York opened a supervised 1439 01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:06,360 Speaker 1: injection site, the first in the country. So if you 1440 01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,040 Speaker 1: want to strip the Sackler's name off the Guggenheim, that's 1441 01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:11,080 Speaker 1: all fine and good. And I'm sure it actually did 1442 01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:14,639 Speaker 1: hurt Arthur Sackler's feelings. I'm sure that he felt really 1443 01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,280 Speaker 1: bad about that. But I don't care about Arthur Sackler's feelings, 1444 01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,080 Speaker 1: for good or bad. I don't care about how he feels. 1445 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:23,360 Speaker 1: What I care about is ensuring that people don't die, 1446 01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:27,599 Speaker 1: and hurting Arthur Sackler's reputation won't necessary. It certainly won't 1447 01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,160 Speaker 1: bring back the dead, and I don't think it will 1448 01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:33,520 Speaker 1: prevent future overdoses. So that's one of the the conflicts 1449 01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:36,280 Speaker 1: that I've felt, is this emphasis on sort of vindictive 1450 01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,840 Speaker 1: call out activism as opposed to constructive activism. So you 1451 01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,519 Speaker 1: have and I say this actually with genuine admiration for 1452 01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:45,200 Speaker 1: Nan Golden, both as an artist and an activist, but 1453 01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,439 Speaker 1: there's something kind of off putting to me about how 1454 01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:52,200 Speaker 1: much praise there is for attacking the philanthropic work of 1455 01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:54,880 Speaker 1: the Sackler's, while, for example, I have a friend named 1456 01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,280 Speaker 1: Mark Cross who lives in Brooklyn who's dedicated himself to 1457 01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:01,920 Speaker 1: the distribution of Nelocks one and Hailers and figuring out 1458 01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:04,000 Speaker 1: ways to get them to people for free and to 1459 01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:06,120 Speaker 1: teach people how to use them. But that doesn't get 1460 01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:08,360 Speaker 1: any press at all. You know, I'll tell you, I 1461 01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:11,639 Speaker 1: mean Hamilton, because to the earlier episodes of Psychoactive One, 1462 01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:14,320 Speaker 1: what I did with Patrick rad and Keith the you know, 1463 01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:16,320 Speaker 1: brilliant New Yorker writer who wrote the book about the 1464 01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:19,240 Speaker 1: Sackler family Empire pain, and I gave them a bit 1465 01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,479 Speaker 1: of a hard time about placing so much of the 1466 01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,040 Speaker 1: blame on the Sacklers, not that they are blame us 1467 01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,000 Speaker 1: by any means. I think they deserve a lot of 1468 01:22:27,360 --> 01:22:29,599 Speaker 1: the criticism and the lawsuits and all that's coming after 1469 01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:33,880 Speaker 1: them because they did drastically, dramatically overpromoted drug that was 1470 01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:36,479 Speaker 1: a miracle drug for some, but not appropriate in the 1471 01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:38,559 Speaker 1: ways that they were promoting it. But then I also 1472 01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:42,560 Speaker 1: had Kate Nicholson, who has created an organization specifically to 1473 01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:46,519 Speaker 1: deal with the pendulum being swinging so far backward against 1474 01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:49,639 Speaker 1: opia prescribing that now you have people who are using 1475 01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:53,120 Speaker 1: opioids responsibly and who needed for their proper functioning, but 1476 01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:56,000 Speaker 1: where doctors won't prescribe it, where their family is coming 1477 01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:58,160 Speaker 1: down on them. So I think we're we're exactly on 1478 01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:01,080 Speaker 1: the same page about this. I'll say, with respect to 1479 01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:04,240 Speaker 1: the activism, my sense even at the Risings conferences, that 1480 01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:07,000 Speaker 1: we're still in that first generation period, and typically in 1481 01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:09,639 Speaker 1: our first generation. I've seen this in many different areas 1482 01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,479 Speaker 1: of drug policy reform. The first generation generally has a 1483 01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,439 Speaker 1: fairly high what you might call mensh kite quota. In 1484 01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,880 Speaker 1: other words, a substantial number that people are in it 1485 01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:20,479 Speaker 1: for the right reasons and doing it for the right things. 1486 01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:24,320 Speaker 1: And inevitably, of course, your biggest battles are with your allies, 1487 01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:26,920 Speaker 1: because those are the ones that you know intimately, the 1488 01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,320 Speaker 1: ones you fight with over crediting girlfriends and funding and 1489 01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,200 Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff. But I think as 1490 01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:38,240 Speaker 1: you move into the second generation, as it becomes more commercialized, 1491 01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:40,519 Speaker 1: as people start to go into it for reasons that 1492 01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:44,320 Speaker 1: are not the kind of first generation impulse, that's where 1493 01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,679 Speaker 1: it becomes a little more challenging. Okay, so three last 1494 01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:52,040 Speaker 1: quick questions about particular drugs. One of their episodes focused 1495 01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:56,000 Speaker 1: on something called LSD Ultra to allay audience, how could 1496 01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:59,760 Speaker 1: you explain what's so potentially exciting about that? Well, this 1497 01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:05,240 Speaker 1: is yes, there's a an acronym that the brilliant scientist 1498 01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:08,960 Speaker 1: Brian Roth uses. He calls this project ultra l s 1499 01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:12,960 Speaker 1: D and LSD in this instance does not stand for 1500 01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:18,679 Speaker 1: lysergic acid diathyle amide. It stands for large scale docking. 1501 01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:23,880 Speaker 1: And his idea is that if you can know the 1502 01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:29,720 Speaker 1: exact structure of a drugs receptor using X ray crystallography 1503 01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:32,519 Speaker 1: or cryo E M or something of that nature, and 1504 01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,400 Speaker 1: you can build a computer model of that receptor. You 1505 01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:41,200 Speaker 1: can develop programs that will virtually dok non existent drugs 1506 01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:44,680 Speaker 1: in silico to do all of the drug design on 1507 01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:47,360 Speaker 1: a computer, and then when you have a number of 1508 01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:51,200 Speaker 1: promising hits, you synthesize those things and validate the process 1509 01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:55,920 Speaker 1: using conventional pharmacological techniques. So it's a brilliant idea, and 1510 01:24:56,040 --> 01:25:00,080 Speaker 1: he has already demonstrated its effectiveness in the design and 1511 01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:04,200 Speaker 1: of novel ligands for melatonin receptors. At the time that 1512 01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:07,040 Speaker 1: I interviewed him, he was focusing on five h T 1513 01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:09,240 Speaker 1: two a agonist. I don't believe that that research has 1514 01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,240 Speaker 1: been published yet, but I don't doubt that he's going 1515 01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,760 Speaker 1: to find something really amazing. His technique is brilliant. Brian 1516 01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:17,440 Speaker 1: Roth is a brilliant person, and I think this represents 1517 01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:22,080 Speaker 1: a futuristic direction that all of this research can move 1518 01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,240 Speaker 1: toward in the future. The work that I do currently 1519 01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:30,400 Speaker 1: is effectively identical to the work that Alexander Shulgan was 1520 01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:34,759 Speaker 1: doing in the sense that it's not really hypothesis driven. 1521 01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:39,720 Speaker 1: It's exploratory work where you simply make things and you 1522 01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,320 Speaker 1: look at their pharmacology and you make another thing, and 1523 01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:44,720 Speaker 1: you look at the pharmacology, and you examine trends and 1524 01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,560 Speaker 1: you try to understand chemical space. But it's a slow process. 1525 01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,000 Speaker 1: Even a dedicated chemist can only make so many molecules. 1526 01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:56,080 Speaker 1: You know, let's say one a week, creating one new 1527 01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:58,760 Speaker 1: molecule a week. Maybe if you're really dedicated, it could 1528 01:25:58,760 --> 01:26:00,960 Speaker 1: be two or three if it's the only thing that 1529 01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:04,919 Speaker 1: you do. But using these in silico drug design techniques, 1530 01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:10,040 Speaker 1: millions of different hypothetical drugs can be screened. And I 1531 01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:12,240 Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of potential in these techniques. 1532 01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:14,320 Speaker 1: That said, I think that there's a beauty to the 1533 01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:18,840 Speaker 1: old way, and I of course have a romantic appreciation 1534 01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:24,519 Speaker 1: of the old techniques of chemistry, of working in a 1535 01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,719 Speaker 1: lab and the colors and the smells, and the beauty 1536 01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:30,439 Speaker 1: of growing crystals and all of that. And the idea 1537 01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:33,400 Speaker 1: of losing that is slightly sad to me, but you know, 1538 01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,759 Speaker 1: maybe it's part of progress. Okay, next question. I remember 1539 01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,080 Speaker 1: having books on my shelf going back thirty years ago 1540 01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:42,639 Speaker 1: called smart drugs. What does that mean? What's happened with them? 1541 01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:47,280 Speaker 1: Have you used them? Or is there a big future? Yeah? 1542 01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:51,439 Speaker 1: I mean, when I was a freshman in college, I 1543 01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:56,479 Speaker 1: got a prescription for adderall and I took it as 1544 01:26:56,600 --> 01:27:00,599 Speaker 1: prescribed every day, and by the end of my freshman year, 1545 01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:06,640 Speaker 1: I was completely emaciated. I waged twenty pounds less than 1546 01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:09,120 Speaker 1: I weigh right now. And it was clear to me 1547 01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:12,000 Speaker 1: that there was no way this was an abuse. This 1548 01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:15,240 Speaker 1: was as directed medical use of you know, something like 1549 01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:18,000 Speaker 1: twenty milligrams have em fetamine a somewhat low dose daily, 1550 01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:22,200 Speaker 1: And I realized, there is no way that this is sustainable. 1551 01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,400 Speaker 1: This is gonna probably kill me if I keep doing it, 1552 01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:27,000 Speaker 1: so I had to stop, and I became very interested 1553 01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:29,960 Speaker 1: in new tropics. I read a lot of literature. I 1554 01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:34,880 Speaker 1: tried an enormous number of new tropics myself, and I 1555 01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:40,120 Speaker 1: did not find that any of them, you know, solved 1556 01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:42,920 Speaker 1: the problems of a d h D, or made me 1557 01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:46,280 Speaker 1: hyper intelligent or anything like that. Um. I think that 1558 01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:50,600 Speaker 1: they offer some benefits for some people under some circumstances, 1559 01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:54,760 Speaker 1: sort of like nicotine, where you know it might help sometimes, 1560 01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,360 Speaker 1: but then you might become tolerant, or it might have 1561 01:27:57,439 --> 01:28:02,280 Speaker 1: a side effect that limits the applicability for long term use. 1562 01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:04,880 Speaker 1: But I think that as an idea, it's a very 1563 01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:08,559 Speaker 1: powerful one, because who wouldn't want a drug that improves 1564 01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:13,799 Speaker 1: their memory or concentration or makes them more reasonable and smart. 1565 01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:16,760 Speaker 1: It's a wonderful idea that has been explored at great 1566 01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:20,040 Speaker 1: length in science fiction. I think the issues that we 1567 01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:24,439 Speaker 1: simply have not found such a drug yet. Now you 1568 01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:26,240 Speaker 1: just mentioned the third drugg I was going to ask 1569 01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:28,960 Speaker 1: you about nicotine. I mean, we know, on the one hand, 1570 01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,880 Speaker 1: it's associated with the massive millions and millions of deaths 1571 01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:35,759 Speaker 1: each year from people smoking consuming nicotine in a smokable form. 1572 01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:38,519 Speaker 1: We know that it has a rich history. There's a 1573 01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:41,439 Speaker 1: book I think called Tobacco and Shamanism, you know, where 1574 01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:45,400 Speaker 1: you see descriptions of tobacco consumption in South America that 1575 01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:48,720 Speaker 1: resemble some of the most powerful, you know, psychedelic consumption. 1576 01:28:49,160 --> 01:28:51,080 Speaker 1: And now we have a new world of tobacco harm 1577 01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:55,320 Speaker 1: reduction where people are consuming nicotine, including smoking by consuming 1578 01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,479 Speaker 1: either a vaping form or in oral forms or in pouches. 1579 01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:03,120 Speaker 1: No this thing. Have you looked into nicotine any depth 1580 01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:05,160 Speaker 1: as yet Hamilton's or can you imagine doing so in 1581 01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:10,240 Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, I think nicotine is absolutely fascinating, and 1582 01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:16,240 Speaker 1: I think that nicotine is almost the prototypical neotropic or 1583 01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:18,960 Speaker 1: cognitive enhancer, and and so it doesn't meet the strict 1584 01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,639 Speaker 1: definition of the new tropic. But the problem, of course 1585 01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:27,439 Speaker 1: is that it is immensely habit forming. And so if 1586 01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,400 Speaker 1: you use nicotine for the first time and you have 1587 01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:33,960 Speaker 1: no tolerance to the effect. I mean, I've had instances 1588 01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,519 Speaker 1: where I use nicotine and you know, wrote an entire 1589 01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:39,200 Speaker 1: article in a single setting. That's kind of the best 1590 01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:42,360 Speaker 1: case scenario. But of course that type of effect is 1591 01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:46,400 Speaker 1: not sustainable, and you rapidly become tolerant, and then after 1592 01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:49,160 Speaker 1: a little while, the effect of the nicotine is simply 1593 01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,759 Speaker 1: curing the withdrawal from not using nicotine. A very similar 1594 01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:55,920 Speaker 1: thing happens with caffeine. Anyone that has gone weeks or 1595 01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:58,439 Speaker 1: months without using caffeine and uses it again for the 1596 01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:03,520 Speaker 1: first time, we'll have this kind of uh, incredible explosion 1597 01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:07,400 Speaker 1: of concentration and focus and energy. But for most people 1598 01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:11,559 Speaker 1: it's just the way you deal with caffeine withdrawal, first 1599 01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:15,000 Speaker 1: thing in the morning. Yeah, I mean sorry. I discussed 1600 01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:17,360 Speaker 1: this with Michael because Michael Pollan in his last book, 1601 01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,360 Speaker 1: Caffeine was the whole chapter and he described it the 1602 01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:21,760 Speaker 1: way you do. Although I wonder if a hundred percent 1603 01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:25,559 Speaker 1: of effect for long time users is simply warding off withdrawal, 1604 01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:29,280 Speaker 1: or if there's not still some effective stimulant thing that happens. 1605 01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:33,080 Speaker 1: You know that it's a combination of those two. Last thing, 1606 01:30:33,439 --> 01:30:36,480 Speaker 1: you don't get that much into people altering their consciousness 1607 01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:41,160 Speaker 1: through non drug means. There is that fascinating episodes you 1608 01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:43,920 Speaker 1: have where you're you go to visit Amanda Fielding, the 1609 01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:47,800 Speaker 1: founder of the Beckley Foundation outside Oxford, and you get 1610 01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:51,599 Speaker 1: her to share her experience with a trepidation um, which 1611 01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:55,400 Speaker 1: was a way of altering consciousness and maybe enhancing longer 1612 01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:57,640 Speaker 1: term health that people, you know where you put a 1613 01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:00,960 Speaker 1: little hole in your head. But I wonder know you're 1614 01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:04,840 Speaker 1: very open to Amanda sharing your experience with trepidation. Do 1615 01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:06,960 Speaker 1: you think you could see yourself doing a lot more 1616 01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:11,200 Speaker 1: research into the alterations of consciousness that don't involve taking 1617 01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:15,200 Speaker 1: these chemicals? Yes, of course. The problem is that I 1618 01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:18,800 Speaker 1: think that starts to rapidly include the entirety of human life. 1619 01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:24,559 Speaker 1: We're constantly trying to alter our consciousness through non pharmacological means, 1620 01:31:24,640 --> 01:31:28,679 Speaker 1: whether it's entertaining ourselves by listening to podcasts or reading 1621 01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:31,200 Speaker 1: a book, or watching a movie or a YouTube video, 1622 01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:34,479 Speaker 1: or falling in love or trying to fall in love, 1623 01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:38,120 Speaker 1: or breaking up with somebody, or eating a meal. I mean, 1624 01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:41,240 Speaker 1: it's that the problem is that this rapidly expands into 1625 01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,680 Speaker 1: everything because and I think this also is one of 1626 01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:48,280 Speaker 1: the issues with the way that people talk about addiction. 1627 01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:51,479 Speaker 1: They talk about addiction as if it is heroin addiction 1628 01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:54,759 Speaker 1: and nothing else. But the reality is that these sorts 1629 01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,600 Speaker 1: of addictions exist throughout human life, whether it's food or 1630 01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:04,439 Speaker 1: entertainment to her avoidance of suffering through various social behavioral patterns, 1631 01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:06,599 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. So of course I'm 1632 01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:09,120 Speaker 1: interested in it. The problem is that it just becomes 1633 01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:13,680 Speaker 1: an enormous subject, very very quickly. And the nice thing 1634 01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:17,840 Speaker 1: about drugs is they are single entities with histories that 1635 01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:21,360 Speaker 1: can be studied and understood, and they allow you to 1636 01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:27,880 Speaker 1: narrow the focus on a infinitely expansive field of consciousness alteration. 1637 01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:31,280 Speaker 1: Sometimes people would talk about these episodes as if they 1638 01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:34,000 Speaker 1: were about a drug, but the drug was typically just 1639 01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:37,920 Speaker 1: a a single focal point in a larger issue where 1640 01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, the LSD episode, was it really about LSD? Know? 1641 01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:43,919 Speaker 1: Was about Amanda Fielding and the history of her research 1642 01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:47,720 Speaker 1: and the future of drug discovery that was guided in 1643 01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:52,080 Speaker 1: part by historical research on LSD, and it rapidly expands 1644 01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,200 Speaker 1: into this very big topic. And so part of the 1645 01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:57,639 Speaker 1: reason that I've emphasized drugs is They've been a way 1646 01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:03,559 Speaker 1: to encapsulate this enorm its enormous subject that can rapidly 1647 01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:05,840 Speaker 1: get out of control if you don't focus yourself. You're 1648 01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:07,600 Speaker 1: reminding me though, the part of that episode where you 1649 01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:10,120 Speaker 1: get into misth amphetamine and then you go visit some 1650 01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:13,479 Speaker 1: people in recovery and you basically keep pushing them, aren't 1651 01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:15,920 Speaker 1: you just substituting an addiction to mith amphetamine with an 1652 01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:19,879 Speaker 1: addiction to Jesus? And their response is kind of interesting 1653 01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:21,960 Speaker 1: in a way. I mean, on one hand, they're saying yes, 1654 01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:26,120 Speaker 1: But it also gets to the distinction between addiction and dependence, right, 1655 01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:29,120 Speaker 1: where one something you become dependent on in your life, 1656 01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:32,439 Speaker 1: but that dependence is causing little or no harm, as 1657 01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:35,880 Speaker 1: opposed to addiction, which involves a dependence plus a lot 1658 01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,680 Speaker 1: of harm. Right. And when people saw that, I think 1659 01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:42,040 Speaker 1: they sort of misinterpreted what I was doing and they 1660 01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:45,280 Speaker 1: thought it was like a snarky attack. But I'm genuinely 1661 01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:50,360 Speaker 1: very interested in how well religiosity seems to help certain 1662 01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:53,439 Speaker 1: people with substance abuse disorders. I mean that what they 1663 01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:56,120 Speaker 1: were doing is not uncommon. That's not something that you 1664 01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:00,320 Speaker 1: only see in you know, Arkansas or ten See. This 1665 01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:03,280 Speaker 1: is something that you see in New York City. It's 1666 01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:07,879 Speaker 1: actually very common for people who are addicted to drugs 1667 01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:11,719 Speaker 1: to find solace in the concept of a higher power 1668 01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:15,160 Speaker 1: and use that to help their sobriety. It's, you know, 1669 01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,439 Speaker 1: a foundational concept in a A and a lot of 1670 01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:21,800 Speaker 1: other addiction treatment programs. So I think it's it's a 1671 01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:24,720 Speaker 1: valid question, and I think some people were thought it 1672 01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:28,120 Speaker 1: was a snarky remark when one of the I said, 1673 01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:31,880 Speaker 1: what would you do if you didn't believe in God 1674 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:35,519 Speaker 1: but you wanted to experience this benefit that you know, 1675 01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:38,000 Speaker 1: seems to be very real for these people. How would 1676 01:34:38,040 --> 01:34:42,000 Speaker 1: an atheist or somebody who is agnostic or resistant to 1677 01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:47,920 Speaker 1: the traditions of Christianity still experience this in a materialist mindset? 1678 01:34:48,439 --> 01:34:51,440 Speaker 1: And I don't think it's a good answer to that question. Unfortunately. 1679 01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:53,439 Speaker 1: I think that it may be the case that this 1680 01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:56,439 Speaker 1: alternate belief system really does confers and benefit, and it 1681 01:34:56,520 --> 01:35:01,120 Speaker 1: might be incompatible with atheist materialism. So I don't know 1682 01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:04,320 Speaker 1: that there's an easy solution for that problem. Hey Hamilton, 1683 01:35:04,360 --> 01:35:06,120 Speaker 1: I think we should just go on and on forever. 1684 01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:09,800 Speaker 1: So for our listeners, I strongly encourage you to take 1685 01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:12,880 Speaker 1: a look at you know, Hamilton's twenty part series of 1686 01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:17,559 Speaker 1: documentaries about drugs, Hamilton's Pharmacopeia. He has a podcast as well, 1687 01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:19,360 Speaker 1: in fact that he had me on as a guest 1688 01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,560 Speaker 1: not long ago, even as he's working at the university 1689 01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:25,680 Speaker 1: and doing research in the following the footsteps and the 1690 01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:28,600 Speaker 1: traditions of Sasha Shulgin. So Hamilton's thank you ever so 1691 01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:30,800 Speaker 1: much for taking the time to be on this and 1692 01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:32,840 Speaker 1: I look forward to our crossing paths for many years 1693 01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:38,400 Speaker 1: to come. Yes, thank you. We love to hear from 1694 01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:41,280 Speaker 1: our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, 1695 01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:44,439 Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one 1696 01:35:44,760 --> 01:35:50,200 Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three 1697 01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:54,800 Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at psychoactive 1698 01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:57,960 Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at 1699 01:35:58,040 --> 01:36:01,080 Speaker 1: Ethan natal Man. You can also find in contact information 1700 01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:04,640 Speaker 1: in our show notes. Next week I'll be talking with 1701 01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,240 Speaker 1: Daniel Wolfe, who's played a pivotal role in global harm 1702 01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:11,040 Speaker 1: reduction in his role as headed the Harm Reduction program 1703 01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:16,680 Speaker 1: at George Soros's Open Society Foundations. When public health agencies 1704 01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:20,160 Speaker 1: talk about harm reduction, or even when some public health 1705 01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:24,519 Speaker 1: programs discuss harm reduction, they're really thinking about it as 1706 01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:27,560 Speaker 1: a set of approved interventions to reduce the risk of 1707 01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:30,840 Speaker 1: HIV or other blood borne infections, and they're really not 1708 01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:33,040 Speaker 1: thinking about it the way I think about it now, 1709 01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,000 Speaker 1: because I see harm reduction, including needle exchange, as a 1710 01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:40,640 Speaker 1: sense of personal restoration and enfranchiseman, not just as a 1711 01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:44,640 Speaker 1: way to stop disease. Subscribe to Psychoactive now, see it, 1712 01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:52,000 Speaker 1: don't miss it. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart 1713 01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:56,320 Speaker 1: Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman. 1714 01:36:56,800 --> 01:36:59,960 Speaker 1: It's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain. The exact 1715 01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:04,040 Speaker 1: to the producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus 1716 01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:07,599 Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt 1717 01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:10,559 Speaker 1: Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan n Edelman. 1718 01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:14,759 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 1719 01:37:14,840 --> 01:37:18,679 Speaker 1: to Abbvi Briosef, Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beebe