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Speaker 1: Radical is released every Tuesday and brought to you absolutely free.

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Speaker 1: But if you want add free listening and early access

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Speaker 1: to next week's episode, subscribe to tenderfoot Plus. For more information,

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Speaker 1: check out tenderfootplus dot com. Hello Radical listeners, I'm Mostly's

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Speaker 1: Secret host of the podcast. We're doing something a little

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Speaker 1: different this week. We want to give you a bit

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Speaker 1: more insight into the reporting that went into the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and we want to give you a bit of a

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Speaker 1: preview of what's coming in the next few episodes. I

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Speaker 1: sat down with Radical senior producer Johnny Kaufman to talk

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Speaker 1: about all of this, and we'll.

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Speaker 2: Get to that conversation right after the break.

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Speaker 1: This is Mostly's Secret. I'm the host of Radical, and

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Speaker 1: I'm here with the podcast senior producer Johnny Kaufman. Hey Johnny,

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Speaker 1: how's it going?

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Speaker 3: Hey Mosy. I'm good. It's a little weird to be

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Speaker 3: talking to you and have our conversation recorded, but I

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Speaker 3: think this will be fun. I think it'll be good

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Speaker 3: to sort of go back over things. So yeah, I'm

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Speaker 3: all right.

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Speaker 1: So yeah. So many people are asking me how I

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Speaker 1: thought of this podcast, and the answer is, I didn't

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Speaker 1: really think of this podcast, So maybe we should talk

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Speaker 1: about how you first learned about and Ma'am Jamille Alamine

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Speaker 1: and his conviction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so my memory is a little bit fuzzy on this.

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Speaker 3: I'm not quite sure, but I think I was working

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Speaker 3: on a story about you know, I'm a reporter in Atlanta,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I'm obviously a producer too, but I

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Speaker 3: do some reporting as well. And I was working on

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Speaker 3: a story about this activist who was pushing for changes

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Speaker 3: to the laws around voting in Georgia for people convicted

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Speaker 3: of felonies. He was an African American Muslim guy, grew

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Speaker 3: up in the community.

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Speaker 1: In the West End.

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Speaker 3: He grew up in the African American Muslim community in

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Speaker 3: Buffalo actually, and moved here, I think, like when he

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Speaker 3: was a teen or in his like early twenties. So

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Speaker 3: I'm based in Atlanta. I'm a reporter here as well

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Speaker 3: as a producer, and I was working on this story

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Speaker 3: about this activist who was trying to get some laws

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Speaker 3: changed in Georgia around voting for people who are convicted

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Speaker 3: of felonies. He was an African American Muslim guy knew

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Speaker 3: the community in Atlanta well. And I can't remember if

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Speaker 3: it was him or his now wife who was his

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Speaker 3: fiance at the time, who mentioned email Jimi al Alamin

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Speaker 3: to me, and I was like, oh, I started looking

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Speaker 3: into this. I emailed a friend who who I really

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Speaker 3: admire his reporting, and I was like, Hey, has has

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Speaker 3: anyone done anything on this? You know, because I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to like waste my time if someone had already

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Speaker 3: done a story. So and he was like, no, but

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Speaker 3: someone should. So with that kind of encouragement, then I

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Speaker 3: started to dig into it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And this was like a couple of years ago or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a couple of years ago. Yeah, so it would

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Speaker 3: have been twenty twenty one, I think.

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Speaker 1: And once you learned about the case, what'd you do

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Speaker 1: after that?

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Speaker 3: So usually what you know, I think a lot of

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Speaker 3: reporters do you make some initial phone calls. And I

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Speaker 3: filed a bunch of open records requests to get the

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Speaker 3: case documents, both from the Atlanta Police Department and because

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Speaker 3: they initially responded to the shooting in the West End,

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Speaker 3: and then also from the Fulton County District Attorney because

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Speaker 3: they were the prosecutors in the case. So they kind

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Speaker 3: of accumulate a lot of the evidence and incident reports

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Speaker 3: and potentially interviews with witnesses that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So you file these requests, do they respond to them

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Speaker 1: or how do they What type of response do.

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Speaker 3: You get from the Fulton County DA, Right, because the

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Speaker 3: Atlanta Police Department response was great, they were very quick,

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Speaker 3: they got back to meet, but they only had like

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Speaker 3: some they only had sort of like the detective's initial file,

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Speaker 3: which actually, you know, the investigation into this case from

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Speaker 3: the Atlanta Police Department didn't take that long, right, it

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Speaker 3: was like a month maybe or something, right before he

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Speaker 3: was indicted, so that most of the documents were with

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Speaker 3: the Fulton County d And I mean maybe I got

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Speaker 3: like an automated response initially, but then it was like

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Speaker 3: months until I really heard anything, and I had to

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Speaker 3: continue to like email them and email them and call

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Speaker 3: and eventually they told me. One they told me that

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Speaker 3: they didn't have any audio or video recordings, which we're

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Speaker 3: obviously interested in because this is a podcast. But they

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Speaker 3: also told me that they or I can't exactly remember

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Speaker 3: the timeline here, but like there weren't audio and video recordings,

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Speaker 3: and they also said they weren't going to release any

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Speaker 3: materials to us because the case was under review. By

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Speaker 3: this entity called the conviction integrity unit, which you know,

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Speaker 3: we get into later in the in the later episodes

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Speaker 3: of the podcast, and so they were saying, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: usually the practice is when when a case is open,

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Speaker 3: when the investigation is open, you know, you don't release

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Speaker 3: the evidence because that could potentially interfere with the investigation. Right.

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Speaker 3: It's reasonable to a certain extent, but you know, personally

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Speaker 3: as a journalist, and as they talk to more people

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Speaker 3: here is like, well, this could potentially be a problem

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Speaker 3: because these conviction integrity units are pretty popular within the

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Speaker 3: criminal justice world at the moment. Different agencies around the

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Speaker 3: country are instituting them as a way to review prosecutions

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Speaker 3: or miscarriages of justice potentially. And it seems problematic that

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Speaker 3: you could kind of push something into a conviction integrity

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Speaker 3: unit and then seal it off from the public because

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Speaker 3: these are cases that have already played out, right.

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Speaker 1: They're in a post conviction phase. The case is essentially closed,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like when we file public records requests, one

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Speaker 1: of the main responses that we get if it's not

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Speaker 1: turned over is this is still an open case, but

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Speaker 1: at once it's closed. It's supposed to be closed. So

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Speaker 1: what you're saying is they kind of found this little

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Speaker 1: area where they reopened it it again from public scrutiny.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it seemed that way because we didn't,

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Speaker 3: you know, I wasn't getting signals that they were doing

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Speaker 3: a lot of work looking into it, right, So that

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Speaker 3: that was the concern. And then we got the Georgia

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Speaker 3: First Amendment Foundation involved, which is an organization here who

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Speaker 3: advocates for government transparency that kind of thing, and they

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Speaker 3: help journalists with open records requests, and they definitely were

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Speaker 3: concerned about this sort of setting a precedent for prosecutors

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Speaker 3: to close cases and keep them from public scrutiny. So

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Speaker 3: they got involved, and we pushed more, and eventually the

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Speaker 3: Fulton County DA did find recordings which some of have

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Speaker 3: already been included in the episodes that have you know, aired,

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Speaker 3: and there will be more to come, some of those

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Speaker 3: in later episodes, and those are this is the first

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Speaker 3: time that those have been heard by the public, I'm

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Speaker 3: pretty sure. So we got those recordings and we got

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Speaker 3: eventually got I would say probably only five percent of

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Speaker 3: the documents were withheld, probably less than that for like

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Speaker 3: legal reasons, like if there's personal like medical information or

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing, you know. And it was it

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Speaker 3: was wild because actually the documents we felt. We got

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Speaker 3: a document that had a list I think I sent

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Speaker 3: this to you. At some point. We got a document

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Speaker 3: that had a list of the different recordings that the

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Speaker 3: DA's office said they didn't have. So then I was

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Speaker 3: able to send that to the DA and be like, look,

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Speaker 3: this says that these recordings exist, so like, please go

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Speaker 3: back and look for them again. And eventually they found them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, with public records requests, the more detailed you are

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Speaker 1: and the more specific you are in your requests, the

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Speaker 1: better you know.

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Speaker 3: And you remember, I mean we didn't get those recordings

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Speaker 3: until like we had already we were already writing episodes.

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Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, it was very close to the end,

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Speaker 1: which actually leads me right into my next question. You know,

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Speaker 1: I know this. You were wrangling with them for a

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Speaker 1: long time, uh, trying to get this stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the help of these First Amendment lawyers. What were

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Speaker 1: you doing in the meantime?

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Speaker 3: Right? So, I you know, I had made some calls, uh,

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Speaker 3: and was sort of doing some preliminary interviews and and

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Speaker 3: the first one of the first things I did was

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Speaker 3: right to this guy. His name is Otis Jackson. Folks

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Speaker 3: who are listening to the podcast, they won't have heard

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Speaker 3: his his voice yet, but he's coming in the later episodes.

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Speaker 3: He has for years been confessing to shooting the deputies

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Speaker 3: outside the mosque in the West End, the crime for

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Speaker 3: which Eman Jamil was charged, Uh and convicted. I think

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Speaker 3: we can say that, yeah, yeah, so yeah, we can

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Speaker 3: say that. So yeah. So I wrote to him he's

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Speaker 3: in federal prison, uh, and you know, gave him my

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Speaker 3: phone number, and eventually he called me. The way it

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Speaker 3: works is you can't call into federal prison. You have

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Speaker 3: the calls have to come out to you. So I

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Speaker 3: was always like looking, you know, when I would get calls,

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Speaker 3: I can't remember where it said they were coming from,

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Speaker 3: maybe like Maryland or something. So I knew if I

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Speaker 3: was getting a call from Maryland that it was probably him.

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Speaker 3: The calls would only last fifteen minutes, but I tried

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Speaker 3: as much as they could to answer them, and so

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Speaker 3: we sort of got to know each other, and eventually

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Speaker 3: he you know, told me this story that he's been

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Speaker 3: telling for a long time, and so that was, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that was really important to have that, particularly in the

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Speaker 3: early stages. Because also I don't think anyone else in

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Speaker 3: the press had really interviewed him ever, especially not yeah,

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Speaker 3: not audio versions of those interviews.

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Speaker 1: Throughout this period, you guys were on the record, and

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Speaker 1: you were recording these conversations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, he agreed to talk on the record. He yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean you'll hear you Hill hear some of those

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Speaker 3: recordings later in the show. The folks who are listening

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Speaker 3: to the show will hear them. And you know, he's

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Speaker 3: a complicated guy, as you might imagine, And those conversations

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Speaker 3: weren't always easy, but they definitely made me like more

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Speaker 3: interested in the story and kept, you know, got me

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Speaker 3: to continue to push on other fronts, like with the

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Speaker 3: documents and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did you guys ever get a chance to meet?

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Speaker 3: No, no, we did not. We did not get a

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Speaker 3: chance to meet. We tried that. The process for interviewing

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Speaker 3: someone in federal prison is like complicated. I had to

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Speaker 3: read like these different like I don't even know what

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Speaker 3: you call them, like rules that were created by the

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Speaker 3: the Federal Bureau of Prisons. They're kind of hard to

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Speaker 3: find online for how you go about that process. And

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Speaker 3: you have to like submit the request to the warden,

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Speaker 3: I think, and then you have to get the person

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Speaker 3: who's incarcerated to sign on as well. And the problem that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the trick with like reporting on people who

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Speaker 3: are incarcerated, is that you don't always know like what's

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Speaker 3: happening on the on the back end, like within the prison.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know whatever happened. It didn't work out

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Speaker 3: for us to interview him in person, But I don't

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Speaker 3: know if the breakdown was that he ultimately didn't want

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Speaker 3: to do that for whatever reason, or if the warden

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Speaker 3: didn't clear it. We never really got to the bottom

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Speaker 3: of that. But he agreed to the interviews on the

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Speaker 3: record over the phone, and thankfully the quality was good

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Speaker 3: enough that we were able to use them.

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Speaker 1: So you're having these conversations with Otis Jackson and eventually

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Speaker 1: you start getting documents back. What kinds of things do

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Speaker 1: you begin to see?

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Speaker 3: So we started to get the documents back, and there

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Speaker 3: were particularly there were some documents especially that caught my

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Speaker 3: attention that were about a number of other homicides that

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Speaker 3: had played out in the West End, that had happened

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Speaker 3: in the West End in the nineties especially, And we

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Speaker 3: also saw a lot of stuff in those documents about

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Speaker 3: the FBI and their involvement in the community, informants that

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Speaker 3: they had in the community in the nineties and even

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Speaker 3: around the time of the shooting at the mosque, and

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Speaker 3: so that obviously raised a lot of questions and was

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Speaker 3: very interesting, And so that was sort of what that

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Speaker 3: opened up another area of reporting in the story that

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Speaker 3: sort of as you know, folks will hear that plays

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Speaker 3: out a lot in episodes seven and eight, especially.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break here and

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Speaker 1: then we'll be back and Johnny's gonna ask me a

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Speaker 1: few questions and we'll talk more about what's coming up

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 3: I am actually curious to know, MOSSI like, when my

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Speaker 3: boss at Campside Media, his name is Matt Cherr, when

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Speaker 3: he first talked to you about this project, Like, what

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Speaker 3: was your initial reaction, Like did you talk about it

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Speaker 3: with your family, was it something that you were thinking

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Speaker 3: about a lot, or like did you sort of immediately

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Speaker 3: know what you were going to do when you heard

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Speaker 3: about the project.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Matt told me that Campside was looking for a host,

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Speaker 1: and I think my initial response was kind of like

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Speaker 1: disbelief at the degree to which Campside's need for a

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Speaker 1: host aligned with my experience is a little bit creepy.

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Speaker 1: So there's this show about Jamil Lamine based in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: that involves the criminal legal system with a potential wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, Okay, I'm from Atlanta. Matt didn't know this.

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Speaker 1: I don't think Matt knew this. I'm from Atlanta. I've

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Speaker 1: done a wrongful conviction investigation before. I grew up knowing

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Speaker 1: about Jamil Lamine. And my father is a defense lawyer

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Speaker 1: who knows the people in the in the in the

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Speaker 1: defense bar there. So I was like, first of all,

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Speaker 1: if you're looking for somebody, you're not going to find

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Speaker 1: anybody that checks those boxes. So I was like, it

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Speaker 1: was kind of weird. And then you know, like I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about this. I started to think more, in particular

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Speaker 1: about this case and also about the reputation of Jamil

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Speaker 1: Elamina of his community, and I knew that there were

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Speaker 1: people who were very devoted to him and who believed

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Speaker 1: very much in his innocence and who you know, would

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Speaker 1: fight for him in various ways. And so I there

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Speaker 1: was some trepidation on my part about whether I even

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Speaker 1: wanted to get involved and also about what it would mean.

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Speaker 1: So I was drawn by a potential wrongful conviction case

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Speaker 1: because there's a you know, a great impact that a

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Speaker 1: journalist gonna have there. But if he was innocent, I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to kind of just go doing a crime

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Speaker 1: story just for the sake of a crime story. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, after after Matt and I had that conversation,

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Speaker 1: I talked with my family about, you know, what it

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Speaker 1: might mean for me to do this type of project

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Speaker 1: because my family is still in Atlanta and still has

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Speaker 1: a strong connections and meaningful connections to a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks in this community that the story deals with. And

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Speaker 1: so there are a series of conversations there and after,

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Speaker 1: you know, making sure that they were comfortable with it,

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Speaker 1: and finding that I was comfortable with it, I told

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Speaker 1: Matt that I was ready ready to move on. Move

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Speaker 1: on with you guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're thankful that that worked out. Talk a little

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Speaker 3: bit about how, like, because a lot of people in

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Speaker 3: the community, right outside of your family, who who that

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Speaker 3: story touches on, or who have connections to you, man, Jamil,

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Speaker 3: they weren't necessarily, you know, chomping at the bit to talk.

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Speaker 3: So how were you able to to get people to

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Speaker 3: you know, sit down for either for interviews for the

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Speaker 3: show or even to like talk to you off the

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Speaker 3: record just for background information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, a lot of it was it was

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Speaker 1: trust building essentially. There was kind of a baseline level

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Speaker 1: of trust that was there just because of the family

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Speaker 1: that I come from, and just because of my family's

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Speaker 1: proximity to this community, you know, the community of African

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Speaker 1: American Muslims in Atlanta. There are a number of masjids

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Speaker 1: or mosques, but still everyone knows everyone. So and also

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Speaker 1: my name is weird, you know, and everyone knows the secrets.

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Speaker 1: So that meant that people would at least take my calls.

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Speaker 1: And also I should say, you know, you had done

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Speaker 1: some legwork when I came on, and some people had

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Speaker 1: already heard from you and were impressed with your rigor

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Speaker 1: and with your yeah determination, and so at that point

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Speaker 1: they knew that this was a serious project who had

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Speaker 1: someone on it who they could potentially trust. And then

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Speaker 1: it began. It began about So that's like that gets

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Speaker 1: you in the door for an off the record conversation.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can have these preliminary, preliminary conversations with

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Speaker 1: people they know you uh, and they'll tell you things,

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Speaker 1: but maybe they don't want to go. Maybe they don't

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Speaker 1: want to go on the record. And so that happened

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Speaker 1: quite a bit, and then it becomes about, you know,

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Speaker 1: what we need for the show. Who we returned to

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Speaker 1: to ask if they might actually speak to us on

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Speaker 1: the record? Luck, you know, somebody mentioned someone else who

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Speaker 1: happens to want to talk. All these things kind of

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Speaker 1: come into play, and you know, eventually you have a

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Speaker 1: you have what you need. We still got a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who said no, a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: said no. Most of the law enforcement people said no,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people from the community said no. But

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Speaker 1: we had what we needed. And the conversations that we

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Speaker 1: got were intimate and heartfelt, you know.

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Speaker 3: So then those conversations, how do you think, both off

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Speaker 3: the record and the interviews that we did, how do

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Speaker 3: you think that sort of added to what we were

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Speaker 3: already seeing in the documents that we had.

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Speaker 1: I think it added a lot. And here I'm being

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Speaker 1: careful because I want people to make it to the

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Speaker 1: end of this show. But you know, in the documents,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the stuff in the court documents from the trial,

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Speaker 1: we saw a lot of there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that were questionable about the prosecution and the conviction,

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Speaker 1: the eyewitness testimony, the ballistics evidence, other types of evidence

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Speaker 1: that was presented at a trial. There were a lot

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Speaker 1: of things there that that that raised some doubt about

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Speaker 1: the conviction and and all these years later. It is difficult.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's difficult regardless, but it's just difficult to

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Speaker 1: kind of land one way or the other with that

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Speaker 1: type of evidence. If you were not I don't know.

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Speaker 1: If there's kind of like a pile of evidence on

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Speaker 1: one side and a pile of evidence on the other,

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Speaker 1: you could really kind of get in this middle zone

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Speaker 1: of not knowing what to think.

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Speaker 3: But I think especially with with email Jamil, where there's

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Speaker 3: like there's such strong feelings on both sides exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very polarizing figure. But I think the

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Speaker 1: reason that we were able to draw a conclusion in

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Speaker 1: this show, and we do draw a conclusion in this

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Speaker 1: in this show, is because we got close to people

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Speaker 1: who had a sense of things, who were around and

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Speaker 1: that puts those documents in a different light. And it

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Speaker 1: was it was the people who we talked to were

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Speaker 1: probably more persuasive to me than anything.

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Speaker 3: And I think you also brought a trust, like at

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Speaker 3: a level that folks, a lot of folks that we

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Speaker 3: talked to like wouldn't have had for law enforcement. And

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Speaker 3: so law enforcement because of the relationship that they that

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Speaker 3: you know, not good relationship that they had with a

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Speaker 3: lot of people in the West End, meant that either

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Speaker 3: people didn't talk to them or they didn't approach certain

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Speaker 3: people who were much more comfortable talking to you.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely the case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that led us to places that I don't think

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Speaker 3: that law enforcement was able to go potentially.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this community had no love for cops and and yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the in the initial aftermath of of

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Speaker 1: the shooting, you know, cops were approaching people for for

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Speaker 1: for conversations and they got nothing in many cases. And

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Speaker 1: so it is different when when I come behind and

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Speaker 1: and try to initiate these conversations. I should also say

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Speaker 1: that it's different because we're dealing with a twenty year

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Speaker 1: difference in time. So many people who folks in the

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Speaker 1: community might be fearful of are either no longer living

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Speaker 1: or are in prison. Like just that there are just

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that have changed that allow a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of the truth to shake loose, so

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Speaker 1: I can't take like, I don't want to take all

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Speaker 1: the credit there. There's just the circumstances were such that

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Speaker 1: it was time for the story to emerge. I really,

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Speaker 1: I really think it was time for the story to emerge.

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Speaker 3: Folks will be at different points in the show maybe

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Speaker 3: when they encounter this, But why don't you talk a

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Speaker 3: little bit about where the story is gonna go? In

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Speaker 3: episode six, seven and eight.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we talked about Otis Jackson. We're gonna hear

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Speaker 1: from Otis Jackson and we're going to consider what he

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Speaker 1: has to say. You know, it's a it's a complicated

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Speaker 1: bit of testimony that he's given and he's, uh, he's

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Speaker 1: a complicated guy, and we're going to make our our

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Speaker 1: own sense of it. And you know, after that, there's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've been raising these questions about the FBI

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Speaker 1: and whether or not they had someone in the community

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Speaker 1: the night of the shooting, whether or not their informants there,

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Speaker 1: And we're going to take a very close and very

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Speaker 1: scary look at that question. And then you know, episode

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Speaker 1: eight is where we're we're putting it all together, and

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Speaker 1: we are you know, not only letting you know, what

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Speaker 1: we think happened, but letting you know what we think

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Speaker 1: it means, and hopefully leaving people with something that will

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Speaker 1: stick with them and stay with them and you know,

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Speaker 1: affect the way they think about violence in America.

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Speaker 3: So mostly when do the next episodes of Radical come out?

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Speaker 3: When will they be available?

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Speaker 1: Right? So, the next new episode of Radical will be

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Speaker 1: available on January second. For Tenderfoot Plus subscribers, you'll be

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Speaker 1: able to access episode six. For folks who aren't subscribed

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Speaker 1: to Tenderfoot Plus, you'll be able to access episode five.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, Hope you're enjoying the show