WEBVTT - Matthew Rosenberg Talks to Armstrong & Getty 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:03.960 When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.560 know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:08.399 of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.320 doing our part to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.079 novel before, hospited greatly. You've found hassant of the station, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.079 no mask, no Metro need one. We have a few 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.880 extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep the 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.720 DC area moving. Find out more at well Mata dot 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.880 com slash doing our part. So we talked to Matt 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.200 Rosenberg a while back on the Armstrong and Getting radio show, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.320 and we thought he was really, really damned interesting. I 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.040 thought we needed a longer conversation with him. Ye pulitzurprise 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.680 winning journalist covers national security currently for The New York Times, 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.720 spent fifteen years, is foreign correspondent in Asia, Africa, the 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.680 Middle East. He was actually booted out of Afghanistan on 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.800 the orders of President Hamid kars I. Has said a 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.640 lot of really interesting experiences around the world, and it's 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.720 a pleasure to talk to Matt Rosenberg. So I got 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.040 a really broad question right off the bat, and then 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.840 we can just you know, follow different lines based on 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.840 the answer. We the United States have tried all these 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.200 different things, and a lot of countries that you've reported 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.600 on over the years. We've We've tried killing a dictator 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.160 and then leaving it to the people. We've tried overthrowing 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:18.839 a country and trying to build a democracy. We've tried 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.440 leaving it alone and letting them have elections. We've tried 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.080 all these different things, none of which seem to have 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:26.880 worked out that well for us. What do you think 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:32.200 we ought to do? Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah, 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.000 you know, I mean different countries that we want to 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:40.680 follow up exactly specifically. Sure, there are PhD is being 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.160 written about this right now. I mean, I'm gonna just 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.360 I'm gonna stay away from from from projections what we 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.200 should do, and and just tell a little story about 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.800 when I was in Afghanistan right before I got tossed 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.280 in the place, you know, the an election. It was 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.520 gonna be the first election in Whichhammad cars I had 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.680 been the press events since you know, since the US 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.520 had kind of overthrowned the Taliban, in which he was 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:07.920 not gonna be running, and so who's gonna going to 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.880 run Afghanistan? And I remember talking to a few of 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.920 our Afghan reporters who worked in the bureau with us, 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:14.560 and they were like, oh, the U s s a stay. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:16.160 They have to help us pick who's gonna be the 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.840 new leader. And I said at them, I said, guys, 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.440 look around. You know, y'all hate cars. Eye at this point, 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.639 y'all hate the people who were kind of brought into 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.519 power by the US. Like why in the world when 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.800 you want us pick in more people? We seem to 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.720 not be very good at this, and we seem to 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.160 be you know, we're not naked colonialists like the British 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.560 and French were in the nineteenth century. So we're not 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.760 just appointing finding leaders who will who do whatever we 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.240 want and and kind of rob their countries blind on 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.120 behalf of us we don't. But we don't really know 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.320 these countries very well. I mean, I think, you know, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:57.240 take Afghanistan for example, probably a housewife who speak to 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.720 English and in Afghanistan probably doesn't read. The literacy rate 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:02.560 among women are so lo she probably knows more about 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:04.959 Afghans than we ever will most of us ever will, 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.200 And so we end up selecting leaders that tend to 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.440 serve their own personal self interest very well. And not 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.400 much else. They don't serve their people that well, they 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.880 don't serve us very well. Um, I don't know how 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.560 we kind of get around that. I just know that 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.160 you know, between South Asia and Africa and elsewhere in 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.080 the world, the countries that seem to thrive are the 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.840 ones that build themselves and then have a sense of themselves. 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.480 You look at India. India is a great example that 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:33.320 India seven. India becomes independent and it says it's not 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:34.960 gonna be a client state of the West, It's not 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.720 gonna be a client state of the Soviet Union. And 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:42.040 you know, India today is a thriving country. Pakistan, on 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.920 the other hand, you know, right next door, they were 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.920 the same independent state, Um became a client state of 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.320 the West. Pakistan is not a thriving country. I mean, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.200 there are a lot of variables in there, but there 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.280 is some truth to that too that the Indians decided 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.120 we are going to be our own country. We're gonna 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:00.920 be nobody's kind of uh client I us, nobody's gonna 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:02.280 tell us what to do. We're not gonna have a 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.120 master here. And it's worked out very well for them. Well, 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.160 I think I get what you're saying that, with very 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.080 very few exceptions, countries have to go through the very 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.200 difficult decades of finding themselves, sorting out who they are 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.520 and how they're going to hand out power, and there's 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.680 just no no imposing it from above. And I don't 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.640 know how how we kind of like, you know, how 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.080 we do that in a large person of the world. 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.440 I mean, Africa never got that chance because of European colonialism. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.719 Let's be honest about this. The the West Europe, mostly 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.280 through the borders of Africa. There is never any kind 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.520 of sorting out of countries the way you had in 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.040 Europe and Asia. Um, Europe spent a thousand years, two 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.200 thousand years killing each other to get to where they 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:49.720 are today. So you know, I don't know, not optimistic 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.960 for countries that are struggling. It's it's it's a really 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.760 long and bloody road. Well, should our bet just be 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.120 whatever is best to try to counter Iran? As Iran 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.400 wants to take over you know, the whole Middle East, 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.640 and there they have been an enemy of the United States. 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:05.640 I mean, we're counting on MBS to be on our 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.920 side with that. Things have gone a little sideways there, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:09.719 but maybe he's still the horse to stick with. I 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.040 don't know, yeah, I mean, the other question is between 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.760 does Iran need to be our enemy? I mean, I 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.080 don't know. You know, Um, there are a lot of 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:20.919 countries that we kind of put into one camp or 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.839 the other that could probably be a little more negotiable 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.520 with UM, you know, and and it's a tough call 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.839 because countries are not going to do what we say. UM. 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.359 And Iran certainly does a lot of things in the 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.000 Middle East that that are that are definitely not in 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.360 the US interest. But you know, the Staudies aren't exactly 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.840 doing great right now either. And you know, killing the 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.839 journals in a foreign conflict of theirs is It's just 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.280 one of of many different things that Staudia's have done 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.080 that are making them into not a great bet right now. 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:55.840 They've waged a brutal, terrible war in Yemen that even 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.159 even the Secretary of Defense the US has has got 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.760 to end. You know, we keep relying on these kind 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:06.479 of actors that are far from positive right although within 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.640 the region, I mean you're presented with a series of 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.200 unpalatable choices and MBS, you know, well, let's talk about 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.040 him a little bit. He has absolutely instituted a few 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.320 uh pleasant some might say cosmetic reforms. You can take 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.920 your best Gald of the movies tonight if you want. Um. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:29.160 But he he's snuffs journalists and consulates. Uh what direction 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.120 do you think he is planning to move Saudi Arabia? 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.360 What's it? What's his act? You know, it's it's so 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.800 hard to tell right now. Look, he clearly has a 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.159 modernizing streak, and he clearly has a very deep Aubetarian streak. Um, 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.560 it wasn't just the killing of Tamaka Showy. You know, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.520 he locked up a big chunk of the country's elite 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.520 torture from them when he took power. He has consolidated 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.200 power ruthlessly. Um. He is young, he's in his thirties, 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.719 and you know, there are a lot of people in 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.920 their thirties who who might not make the most mature 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.880 and best leaders of any country. And I don't know 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.080 the guy, I've never met him. But you know, it's 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.200 it's great lusening restrictions on women. But there have been 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.239 a lot of other things that should give everyone pause. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:18.800 Do you think uh, uh, MBS I want to I 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.160 always want to call him MSB. Then I start thinking 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.440 of what's on the Chinese food MSG and then I 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.320 get confused. I'm sorry, I don't get enough sleep. But 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.920 do you think msb Admires, Thomas Jefferson, more Es and 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.320 Ping Oh guy, I would have to go with the 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.200 ladder on that one. Um, the man is clearly not 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:41.080 a big advocate of democracy. Well, yeah, the the modernized 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.360 totalitarian state, you don't have to look very hard to 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.920 find examples of that. That's kind of hot. Yeah, No, 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.760 it's it's it's it's obvious days look over and over again. 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.080 There are in many different countries these people come to 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.360 power who kind of supplant brutal dictators, and are these 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.080 kind of seen as benevolent death bolts of sorts. You know, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.040 in Uganda you had Yarry miss Avny, who we had 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.200 eating a mean and you had all kinds of violence 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.800 and terrible rule. Then you get this guy who's kind 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:10.520 of stabilized at the place in the place, does well 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.600 economically and things you're going up, but that eventually does 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.680 not kind of last, and the benevolent despot eventually just 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.720 becomes a despot because you got to hold onto power 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.920 if you are an authoritarian or totel talent totalitarian state. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.640 At some point, your whole claim to power is coercive 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.520 over your own people. You're not gonna allow descent. You're 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.360 not gonna allow um any kind of wiggle room because 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.840 you can't. And so it's very easy to go from being, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.760 you know, the good guy who's kind of fixing the 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.320 country informing it, to the person who now is holding 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.960 onto power at all costs and oppressing their people. Yeah, 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.320 it's interesting. I always think about it. Right after nine eleven, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.880 I remember John McCain saying, what we have here is 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:54.880 the the the the the end of time when it's 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:56.839 a good idea for the United States to make deals 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:58.920 with dictators, those days are gone. And I thought at 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:00.439 the time, I thought, yea, so it's gonna be the 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.720 end of all these evil dictators in the Middle East. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.000 But then you see Mabarick go and the people vote 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.400 for the Muslim Brotherhood or Kaddafi falls, and then you 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.920 just have Mayhem or what's going on in Syrious. So 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.200 I don't know what the right answer is now, No, 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.079 d um. I mean, I'm kind of for many many 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:23.800 years overseas, I I'm not quite sure we do as 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.200 much good as we think we do a lot of places. Um. 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.240 I don't know how we do it better. Um, but 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.640 we can either often bring a heavy hand, or when 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.400 we decide to back sturtain people we don't know particularly 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.880 well who they are, and we end up backing people. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.960 It turned it out to beat nasty, nasty people. Um. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.319 And you know, there are realists who would say we 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.600 should just do it in ourselves interest and because those 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:49.160 other people. So if we need to support a dictator, 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.600 we should support them. I don't know if that doesn't 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.480 come back to the bite in the ass sometimes um 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.160 or often Well, yeah, I think it's pretty clear, and 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.240 I consider myself a real realist in terms of foreign policy. See. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.840 But yeah, if you nakedly and without subtlety pursue your 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.040 own interest in the long term, that will go against 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:12.720 your interests because everybody will hate you. Um. And and 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.000 on that note, let's go back to Afghanistan, where you 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.480 spent a great deal of time. How long were you there? God, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:19.920 I was so, I was there a little bit in 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.040 like two thousand two. Um I was based in East 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.040 Africa time, just kind of helping out. And um I 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.120 was a young reporter at the Associated Press and then 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:33.800 between like two to two thousand and eight and kind 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:35.839 of a big chunk of my time I've spent in 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.000 Afghanistan in the last three years of that about okay, 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.439 so true or no? How do you see it? We 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:48.320 are engaged in a permanent, um semi occupation of Afghanistan 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.800 for the purpose of ensuring it doesn't fall into an 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.000 islam ast hellhole, to have a balance against Iran in 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.240 the region, to keep an eye on Pakistan. This isn't 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.000 a war, it's an keep patient. Um. I would say 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.200 true in the sense that after seven seen years. I 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.680 don't know what else you call it. I don't think 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:12.679 you know, it's it's endless because it's we're not winning um. 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.719 And I don't think anybody envisions Afghanistan being particularly good 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.480 counterbalanced to anyone. It's a pretty weak country. Well yeah, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.720 I mean our presence there being a remember we're here, 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.760 and it's definitely to keep the Taliban out of power. Um. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.760 You know. Uh. The thing is, though, is that we, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.439 like I said, we're not winning and nobody believes we are. 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.280 It's it's a death by a thousand cut situation at 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.319 this point. But it is something that we are slowly 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:44.080 kind of being chipped away at, and it's unclear, you 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.480 know what the endgame here is what we believe the 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:49.880 final result is going to be is look, the Trump 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.920 administration will say, now, well, you know, we hold on. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.040 We provide assistance and support to the to the to 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.839 the Afghan Army and the Afghan police, and eventually the 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:00.720 Taliban will come to the table. That has been a 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.640 strategy for seven or eight years now and it has 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.280 yet to yield anything, um except some very very very 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.880 beginnings of peace talks that have been beginning now for 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.719 about six years so, so not really clear on how 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:15.760 this is a new strategy or where this one's going. 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.240 Was a crook from the beginning or did he just 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.000 become a realist or what went on there? No, I 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.439 mean he I'm not even clear if he personally was 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.080 a crook ever, and people around him definitely were though 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.120 what cars I was with somebody who needed to stay 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.800 in power. So when he came to power, a whole 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.839 network of kind of war lords and kind of big 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.240 men and others came to power with him. His entire 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.719 support network. A lot of those people were supported initially 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.960 by us, by the CIA, and others. And you know 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.280 early on the cars by presidency, that money that that 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.720 we were using to pay off different warlords than various 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.480 actors was then started to be routed through cars I. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.280 And then it just quickly became a situation where if 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.600 you wanted to get any business out of the country, 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:00.199 you know, any of easy you have to oath to 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:01.880 the government, you have to go through somebody in power. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.559 You needed those connections. I think that's like the classic 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.640 mark of kleptocracy is you look, you know, we always 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:09.439 had a deal in the US, like you do your 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.360 time in government, public service or asn't like an official 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:14.880 and um, and after you get out you want to 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.760 cash in, that's up to you. But in a cryptocracy 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.080 is you are in power and you use your office 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.560 to either rich yourself or your friends and family and 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.080 framed to get any business done, they need your blessing 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.120 because you control the kind of years, kind of getting 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.400 the permits you need or whatever, you know, And that 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.920 was what Afghanistan quickly became. Where I remember a guy 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.480 a d a guy who was leading this big, this 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.760 big task force to go after Taliban finances. You know, 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.800 they started thinking like two thousand nine when the kind 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.160 of the surgery starting the war was kind of becoming 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.560 our focus again. So they fire up this this big 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.320 task force and the idea they're gonna go after like 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.960 Taliban opium smuggling in other ways that Talaban make money. 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.240 So these guys they start, they start listening phone calls 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:02.719 over the country and it's they quickly realize like, oh, like, 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.319 everybody's in business together. It's not just the Taliban, it's 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.320 the government, it's people in the whole wallows, which are 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.520 these kind of informal money transfer networks that made up 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.200 most of the financial network. It's it's the kind of 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.520 financial system that works in the banks in Afghanistan. Um 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.720 that everybody is interlinked. It's all kind of a giant 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.080 criminal enterprise, and here we are in the middle of it, 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.200 kind of financing the whole thing. Um, you know, we 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.760 built that. So whatever cars that became, we do bear 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.680 some responsibility for that. Every regular person on planet Earth 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.480 is always one of the same thing. For the most part. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.720 You wanta you wanna raise your kids in a in 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.920 a safe place, and and that's pretty much it. But 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.480 where of all the places you've been was the closest 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.200 thing to like the the pure hobbsy and nightmare of 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.960 life is violent, brutish, short, that whole thing where there 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.400 just was no law in order. Oh, that had to 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.760 have been like parts of Eastern Congo, parts of of Sudan, 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.240 you know, parts of Somalia where you know they're either 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.680 in Smala, you had no effective central government. There just 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.480 wasn't one. And then in the Eastern Congo and parts 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.240 of Sudan there just was. The government had no authority 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.400 over these places. There was so distant that it could 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.960 exercise the authority, and that if your neighbor or the 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.000 neighboring village wanted to come up and kill everyone in 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.320 your village and they were stronger, there was no real 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.560 way to stop them. Um, you know, well that's some 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.400 stuff right there. Yeah, yeah, I mean Africa was filled 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.040 with incredibly weak states, countries that that can barely control 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.480 their own borders. Um, that are terribly corrupt that you 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.520 know that they're like I said at the beginning of this, 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.560 Like like I said, you know, these are countries that 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.920 never got a chance to build themselves. Their borders were 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.560 drawn by colonial powers. Some of them make absolutely no sense. 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.640 Why they exist is simply because the dictats of of 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.160 of European bureaucrats in the nineteenth century, and as a result, 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:00.000 you know, they're they're there, you know, hobbled from the beginning, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:01.960 and probably not get any better anytime soon. You know, 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.040 it's interesting as long as we're in Africa and talking 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.400 about that, and as all of us are engaged in 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.640 observing and discussing the growing tribalism in America and the 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.440 partisanship the rest of it. What what does an American 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.400 make of the fragility of civilization and the way people 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.600 who look and sound and worship virtually the same, like 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.320 the Hutus and the hoot season Rwanda, suddenly begin getting well, 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.160 not suddenly, but begin killing each other by the hundreds 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.359 of thousands. What what lesson do we take as humanity 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:37.280 from that? I mean, so leadership counts. You know, people 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.800 people I don't think. I mean, you know, you don't 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.360 blindly follow people. But if if the messages you hear 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.440 are frequent enough and loud enough to tell you that 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:51.120 this other person is there, who to or their Muslim 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.440 doers or whatever they are not who do um are 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.880 are somehow bad and need to go um, that will 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.520 become something that will people will being to act on, 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:03.640 you know, and I think you see that here in 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:07.960 the US, when you know, when you've got fringe elements 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.480 moving to the mainstream and saying things about their rivals 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.560 that are you know, put them far beyond the pale 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.840 of political rivals, that these people are enemies, that they're 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.480 going to destroy our country, that they want to get 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.800 elected to destroy your life. I mean, that's the kind 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.119 of intense to get people fired up, you know. And 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.560 then you get the combination of of the idea that 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.720 you meet one day when they prosecute your political enemies, 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.040 or that if you get to power, you can get rich. 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:34.720 You know, that's the kind of recipe you get where 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:36.760 you start getting real election violence. Because the states get 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.000 very high, very quickly. Cad. You look at these places 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:41.840 that are dysfunctional, like you're just talking about, and you 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:46.240 wonder how they ever get organized. Uh, we ever got 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.040 organized as a as a species ever into into nation 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.119 states that can govern ourselves and have some sort of 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.640 security and decent life. We geeus, god, dang it, We're 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.720 so lucky that we've got it going here. We don't 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.800 blow it. It's pretty it's pretty cray I mean, it's 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:02.159 one of the things where I think, you know, we 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.840 are so we are so lucky, like so many things 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.240 broke right over the last two plus years of the 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.040 United States, but none of this is inevitable, Like this 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.040 can all go away. Um, this doesn't have to exist 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:15.440 the way it does. I think we all kind of 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.640 assume like, hey, it's great, you know, um, but it's 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.480 very easy to remember that, you know, people aren't totally 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:28.159 rational actors that you know, people have predices, people have 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.919 um hang ups, some people are prone to violence, and 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:33.960 that if you get leadership that's willing to kind of 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.120 indulge that, you start getting down a pretty dark path 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.720 pretty quickly. All right, let's head over to Russia. Vlad 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.920 Putin is gathering together is brain trust this afternoon, and 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.760 and he's saying, all right, the America file. What is 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.679 our purpose there? What is what is Vlad Putin thinking 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.320 about when he thinks about the US. So I had 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.399 a really really interesting conversation with a person in the 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.040 intelligence world. They just retired, like this would have been 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.639 the last few months, and they were a very senior 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.159 person deal with Russia, and so we were talking and 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.360 apparently there's this big debate in American kind of spy circles. 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.359 Everybody has figured out that that Putin has hung on 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.560 to Trump and is into Trump as he thinks Trump 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:15.960 can produce some kind of grand bargain that while the 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:17.880 rest of the Russian government looks at what the US 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.880 is doing and sees actual policies out of the Trump 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.040 administration that are pretty hostile to Russia and says we're not. 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.960 When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.600 know we're ready for you. 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