1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: novel before, hospited greatly. You've found hassant of the station, 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: no mask, no Metro need one. We have a few 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep the 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: DC area moving. Find out more at well Mata dot 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: com slash doing our part. So we talked to Matt 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Rosenberg a while back on the Armstrong and Getting radio show, 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: and we thought he was really, really damned interesting. I 12 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: thought we needed a longer conversation with him. Ye pulitzurprise 13 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: winning journalist covers national security currently for The New York Times, 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: spent fifteen years, is foreign correspondent in Asia, Africa, the 15 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: Middle East. He was actually booted out of Afghanistan on 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: the orders of President Hamid kars I. Has said a 17 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: lot of really interesting experiences around the world, and it's 18 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: a pleasure to talk to Matt Rosenberg. So I got 19 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: a really broad question right off the bat, and then 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: we can just you know, follow different lines based on 21 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: the answer. We the United States have tried all these 22 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: different things, and a lot of countries that you've reported 23 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: on over the years. We've We've tried killing a dictator 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: and then leaving it to the people. We've tried overthrowing 25 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: a country and trying to build a democracy. We've tried 26 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: leaving it alone and letting them have elections. We've tried 27 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: all these different things, none of which seem to have 28 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: worked out that well for us. What do you think 29 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: we ought to do? Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah, 30 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean different countries that we want to 31 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: follow up exactly specifically. Sure, there are PhD is being 32 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: written about this right now. I mean, I'm gonna just 33 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay away from from from projections what we 34 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: should do, and and just tell a little story about 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: when I was in Afghanistan right before I got tossed 36 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: in the place, you know, the an election. It was 37 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: gonna be the first election in Whichhammad cars I had 38 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: been the press events since you know, since the US 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: had kind of overthrowned the Taliban, in which he was 40 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: not gonna be running, and so who's gonna going to 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: run Afghanistan? And I remember talking to a few of 42 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: our Afghan reporters who worked in the bureau with us, 43 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, the U s s a stay. 44 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: They have to help us pick who's gonna be the 45 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: new leader. And I said at them, I said, guys, 46 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: look around. You know, y'all hate cars. Eye at this point, 47 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: y'all hate the people who were kind of brought into 48 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: power by the US. Like why in the world when 49 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: you want us pick in more people? We seem to 50 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: not be very good at this, and we seem to 51 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: be you know, we're not naked colonialists like the British 52 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: and French were in the nineteenth century. So we're not 53 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: just appointing finding leaders who will who do whatever we 54 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: want and and kind of rob their countries blind on 55 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: behalf of us we don't. But we don't really know 56 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: these countries very well. I mean, I think, you know, 57 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: take Afghanistan for example, probably a housewife who speak to 58 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: English and in Afghanistan probably doesn't read. The literacy rate 59 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: among women are so lo she probably knows more about 60 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: Afghans than we ever will most of us ever will, 61 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: And so we end up selecting leaders that tend to 62 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: serve their own personal self interest very well. And not 63 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: much else. They don't serve their people that well, they 64 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: don't serve us very well. Um, I don't know how 65 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: we kind of get around that. I just know that 66 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, between South Asia and Africa and elsewhere in 67 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: the world, the countries that seem to thrive are the 68 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: ones that build themselves and then have a sense of themselves. 69 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: You look at India. India is a great example that 70 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: India seven. India becomes independent and it says it's not 71 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: gonna be a client state of the West, It's not 72 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: gonna be a client state of the Soviet Union. And 73 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, India today is a thriving country. Pakistan, on 74 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: the other hand, you know, right next door, they were 75 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: the same independent state, Um became a client state of 76 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: the West. Pakistan is not a thriving country. I mean, 77 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: there are a lot of variables in there, but there 78 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: is some truth to that too that the Indians decided 79 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: we are going to be our own country. We're gonna 80 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: be nobody's kind of uh client I us, nobody's gonna 81 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: tell us what to do. We're not gonna have a 82 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: master here. And it's worked out very well for them. Well, 83 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: I think I get what you're saying that, with very 84 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: very few exceptions, countries have to go through the very 85 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: difficult decades of finding themselves, sorting out who they are 86 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: and how they're going to hand out power, and there's 87 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: just no no imposing it from above. And I don't 88 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: know how how we kind of like, you know, how 89 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: we do that in a large person of the world. 90 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: I mean, Africa never got that chance because of European colonialism. 91 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: Let's be honest about this. The the West Europe, mostly 92 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: through the borders of Africa. There is never any kind 93 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: of sorting out of countries the way you had in 94 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: Europe and Asia. Um, Europe spent a thousand years, two 95 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: thousand years killing each other to get to where they 96 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: are today. So you know, I don't know, not optimistic 97 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: for countries that are struggling. It's it's it's a really 98 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: long and bloody road. Well, should our bet just be 99 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: whatever is best to try to counter Iran? As Iran 100 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: wants to take over you know, the whole Middle East, 101 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: and there they have been an enemy of the United States. 102 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we're counting on MBS to be on our 103 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: side with that. Things have gone a little sideways there, 104 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: but maybe he's still the horse to stick with. I 105 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: don't know, yeah, I mean, the other question is between 106 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: does Iran need to be our enemy? I mean, I 107 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: don't know. You know, Um, there are a lot of 108 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: countries that we kind of put into one camp or 109 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: the other that could probably be a little more negotiable 110 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: with UM, you know, and and it's a tough call 111 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: because countries are not going to do what we say. UM. 112 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: And Iran certainly does a lot of things in the 113 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: Middle East that that are that are definitely not in 114 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: the US interest. But you know, the Staudies aren't exactly 115 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: doing great right now either. And you know, killing the 116 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: journals in a foreign conflict of theirs is It's just 117 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: one of of many different things that Staudia's have done 118 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: that are making them into not a great bet right now. 119 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: They've waged a brutal, terrible war in Yemen that even 120 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: even the Secretary of Defense the US has has got 121 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: to end. You know, we keep relying on these kind 122 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: of actors that are far from positive right although within 123 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: the region, I mean you're presented with a series of 124 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: unpalatable choices and MBS, you know, well, let's talk about 125 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: him a little bit. He has absolutely instituted a few 126 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: uh pleasant some might say cosmetic reforms. You can take 127 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: your best Gald of the movies tonight if you want. Um. 128 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: But he he's snuffs journalists and consulates. Uh what direction 129 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: do you think he is planning to move Saudi Arabia? 130 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: What's it? What's his act? You know, it's it's so 131 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: hard to tell right now. Look, he clearly has a 132 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: modernizing streak, and he clearly has a very deep Aubetarian streak. Um, 133 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the killing of Tamaka Showy. You know, 134 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: he locked up a big chunk of the country's elite 135 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: torture from them when he took power. He has consolidated 136 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: power ruthlessly. Um. He is young, he's in his thirties, 137 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: and you know, there are a lot of people in 138 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: their thirties who who might not make the most mature 139 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: and best leaders of any country. And I don't know 140 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: the guy, I've never met him. But you know, it's 141 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: it's great lusening restrictions on women. But there have been 142 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: a lot of other things that should give everyone pause. 143 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: Do you think uh, uh, MBS I want to I 144 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: always want to call him MSB. Then I start thinking 145 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: of what's on the Chinese food MSG and then I 146 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: get confused. I'm sorry, I don't get enough sleep. But 147 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: do you think msb Admires, Thomas Jefferson, more Es and 148 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: Ping Oh guy, I would have to go with the 149 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: ladder on that one. Um, the man is clearly not 150 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: a big advocate of democracy. Well, yeah, the the modernized 151 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: totalitarian state, you don't have to look very hard to 152 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: find examples of that. That's kind of hot. Yeah, No, 153 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's obvious days look over and over again. 154 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: There are in many different countries these people come to 155 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: power who kind of supplant brutal dictators, and are these 156 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of seen as benevolent death bolts of sorts. You know, 157 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: in Uganda you had Yarry miss Avny, who we had 158 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: eating a mean and you had all kinds of violence 159 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: and terrible rule. Then you get this guy who's kind 160 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: of stabilized at the place in the place, does well 161 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: economically and things you're going up, but that eventually does 162 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: not kind of last, and the benevolent despot eventually just 163 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: becomes a despot because you got to hold onto power 164 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: if you are an authoritarian or totel talent totalitarian state. 165 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: At some point, your whole claim to power is coercive 166 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: over your own people. You're not gonna allow descent. You're 167 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: not gonna allow um any kind of wiggle room because 168 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: you can't. And so it's very easy to go from being, 169 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, the good guy who's kind of fixing the 170 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: country informing it, to the person who now is holding 171 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: onto power at all costs and oppressing their people. Yeah, 172 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I always think about it. Right after nine eleven, 173 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: I remember John McCain saying, what we have here is 174 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: the the the the the end of time when it's 175 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: a good idea for the United States to make deals 176 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: with dictators, those days are gone. And I thought at 177 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: the time, I thought, yea, so it's gonna be the 178 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: end of all these evil dictators in the Middle East. 179 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: But then you see Mabarick go and the people vote 180 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: for the Muslim Brotherhood or Kaddafi falls, and then you 181 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: just have Mayhem or what's going on in Syrious. So 182 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: I don't know what the right answer is now, No, 183 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: d um. I mean, I'm kind of for many many 184 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: years overseas, I I'm not quite sure we do as 185 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: much good as we think we do a lot of places. Um. 186 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't know how we do it better. Um, but 187 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: we can either often bring a heavy hand, or when 188 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: we decide to back sturtain people we don't know particularly 189 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: well who they are, and we end up backing people. 190 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: It turned it out to beat nasty, nasty people. Um. 191 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: And you know, there are realists who would say we 192 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: should just do it in ourselves interest and because those 193 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: other people. So if we need to support a dictator, 194 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: we should support them. I don't know if that doesn't 195 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: come back to the bite in the ass sometimes um 196 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: or often Well, yeah, I think it's pretty clear, and 197 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: I consider myself a real realist in terms of foreign policy. See. 198 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, if you nakedly and without subtlety pursue your 199 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: own interest in the long term, that will go against 200 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: your interests because everybody will hate you. Um. And and 201 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: on that note, let's go back to Afghanistan, where you 202 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: spent a great deal of time. How long were you there? God, 203 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: I was so, I was there a little bit in 204 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: like two thousand two. Um I was based in East 205 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: Africa time, just kind of helping out. And um I 206 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: was a young reporter at the Associated Press and then 207 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: between like two to two thousand and eight and kind 208 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: of a big chunk of my time I've spent in 209 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: Afghanistan in the last three years of that about okay, 210 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: so true or no? How do you see it? We 211 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: are engaged in a permanent, um semi occupation of Afghanistan 212 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: for the purpose of ensuring it doesn't fall into an 213 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: islam ast hellhole, to have a balance against Iran in 214 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: the region, to keep an eye on Pakistan. This isn't 215 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: a war, it's an keep patient. Um. I would say 216 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: true in the sense that after seven seen years. I 217 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: don't know what else you call it. I don't think 218 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's endless because it's we're not winning um. 219 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody envisions Afghanistan being particularly good 220 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: counterbalanced to anyone. It's a pretty weak country. Well yeah, 221 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: I mean our presence there being a remember we're here, 222 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: and it's definitely to keep the Taliban out of power. Um. 223 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: You know. Uh. The thing is, though, is that we, 224 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: like I said, we're not winning and nobody believes we are. 225 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: It's it's a death by a thousand cut situation at 226 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: this point. But it is something that we are slowly 227 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: kind of being chipped away at, and it's unclear, you 228 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: know what the endgame here is what we believe the 229 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: final result is going to be is look, the Trump 230 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: administration will say, now, well, you know, we hold on. 231 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: We provide assistance and support to the to the to 232 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: the Afghan Army and the Afghan police, and eventually the 233 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: Taliban will come to the table. That has been a 234 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: strategy for seven or eight years now and it has 235 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: yet to yield anything, um except some very very very 236 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: beginnings of peace talks that have been beginning now for 237 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: about six years so, so not really clear on how 238 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: this is a new strategy or where this one's going. 239 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: Was a crook from the beginning or did he just 240 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: become a realist or what went on there? No, I 241 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: mean he I'm not even clear if he personally was 242 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: a crook ever, and people around him definitely were though 243 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: what cars I was with somebody who needed to stay 244 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: in power. So when he came to power, a whole 245 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: network of kind of war lords and kind of big 246 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: men and others came to power with him. His entire 247 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: support network. A lot of those people were supported initially 248 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: by us, by the CIA, and others. And you know 249 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: early on the cars by presidency, that money that that 250 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: we were using to pay off different warlords than various 251 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: actors was then started to be routed through cars I. 252 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: And then it just quickly became a situation where if 253 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: you wanted to get any business out of the country, 254 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: you know, any of easy you have to oath to 255 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: the government, you have to go through somebody in power. 256 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: You needed those connections. I think that's like the classic 257 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: mark of kleptocracy is you look, you know, we always 258 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: had a deal in the US, like you do your 259 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: time in government, public service or asn't like an official 260 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: and um, and after you get out you want to 261 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: cash in, that's up to you. But in a cryptocracy 262 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: is you are in power and you use your office 263 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: to either rich yourself or your friends and family and 264 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: framed to get any business done, they need your blessing 265 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: because you control the kind of years, kind of getting 266 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: the permits you need or whatever, you know, And that 267 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: was what Afghanistan quickly became. Where I remember a guy 268 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: a d a guy who was leading this big, this 269 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: big task force to go after Taliban finances. You know, 270 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: they started thinking like two thousand nine when the kind 271 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: of the surgery starting the war was kind of becoming 272 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: our focus again. So they fire up this this big 273 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: task force and the idea they're gonna go after like 274 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: Taliban opium smuggling in other ways that Talaban make money. 275 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: So these guys they start, they start listening phone calls 276 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: over the country and it's they quickly realize like, oh, like, 277 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: everybody's in business together. It's not just the Taliban, it's 278 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: the government, it's people in the whole wallows, which are 279 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: these kind of informal money transfer networks that made up 280 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: most of the financial network. It's it's the kind of 281 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: financial system that works in the banks in Afghanistan. Um 282 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: that everybody is interlinked. It's all kind of a giant 283 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: criminal enterprise, and here we are in the middle of it, 284 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: kind of financing the whole thing. Um, you know, we 285 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: built that. So whatever cars that became, we do bear 286 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: some responsibility for that. Every regular person on planet Earth 287 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: is always one of the same thing. For the most part. 288 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: You wanta you wanna raise your kids in a in 289 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: a safe place, and and that's pretty much it. But 290 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: where of all the places you've been was the closest 291 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: thing to like the the pure hobbsy and nightmare of 292 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: life is violent, brutish, short, that whole thing where there 293 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: just was no law in order. Oh, that had to 294 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: have been like parts of Eastern Congo, parts of of Sudan, 295 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, parts of Somalia where you know they're either 296 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: in Smala, you had no effective central government. There just 297 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: wasn't one. And then in the Eastern Congo and parts 298 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: of Sudan there just was. The government had no authority 299 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: over these places. There was so distant that it could 300 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: exercise the authority, and that if your neighbor or the 301 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: neighboring village wanted to come up and kill everyone in 302 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: your village and they were stronger, there was no real 303 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: way to stop them. Um, you know, well that's some 304 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: stuff right there. Yeah, yeah, I mean Africa was filled 305 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: with incredibly weak states, countries that that can barely control 306 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: their own borders. Um, that are terribly corrupt that you 307 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: know that they're like I said at the beginning of this, 308 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: Like like I said, you know, these are countries that 309 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: never got a chance to build themselves. Their borders were 310 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: drawn by colonial powers. Some of them make absolutely no sense. 311 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: Why they exist is simply because the dictats of of 312 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: of European bureaucrats in the nineteenth century, and as a result, 313 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're there, you know, hobbled from the beginning, 314 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: and probably not get any better anytime soon. You know, 315 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: it's interesting as long as we're in Africa and talking 316 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: about that, and as all of us are engaged in 317 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: observing and discussing the growing tribalism in America and the 318 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: partisanship the rest of it. What what does an American 319 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: make of the fragility of civilization and the way people 320 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: who look and sound and worship virtually the same, like 321 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: the Hutus and the hoot season Rwanda, suddenly begin getting well, 322 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: not suddenly, but begin killing each other by the hundreds 323 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,359 Speaker 1: of thousands. What what lesson do we take as humanity 324 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: from that? I mean, so leadership counts. You know, people 325 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: people I don't think. I mean, you know, you don't 326 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: blindly follow people. But if if the messages you hear 327 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: are frequent enough and loud enough to tell you that 328 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: this other person is there, who to or their Muslim 329 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: doers or whatever they are not who do um are 330 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: are somehow bad and need to go um, that will 331 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: become something that will people will being to act on, 332 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, and I think you see that here in 333 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: the US, when you know, when you've got fringe elements 334 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: moving to the mainstream and saying things about their rivals 335 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: that are you know, put them far beyond the pale 336 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: of political rivals, that these people are enemies, that they're 337 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: going to destroy our country, that they want to get 338 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: elected to destroy your life. I mean, that's the kind 339 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: of intense to get people fired up, you know. And 340 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: then you get the combination of of the idea that 341 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: you meet one day when they prosecute your political enemies, 342 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: or that if you get to power, you can get rich. 343 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: You know, that's the kind of recipe you get where 344 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: you start getting real election violence. Because the states get 345 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: very high, very quickly. Cad. You look at these places 346 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: that are dysfunctional, like you're just talking about, and you 347 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: wonder how they ever get organized. Uh, we ever got 348 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: organized as a as a species ever into into nation 349 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: states that can govern ourselves and have some sort of 350 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: security and decent life. We geeus, god, dang it, We're 351 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: so lucky that we've got it going here. We don't 352 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: blow it. It's pretty it's pretty cray I mean, it's 353 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: one of the things where I think, you know, we 354 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: are so we are so lucky, like so many things 355 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: broke right over the last two plus years of the 356 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: United States, but none of this is inevitable, Like this 357 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: can all go away. Um, this doesn't have to exist 358 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: the way it does. I think we all kind of 359 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: assume like, hey, it's great, you know, um, but it's 360 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: very easy to remember that, you know, people aren't totally 361 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: rational actors that you know, people have predices, people have 362 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: um hang ups, some people are prone to violence, and 363 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: that if you get leadership that's willing to kind of 364 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: indulge that, you start getting down a pretty dark path 365 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. All right, let's head over to Russia. Vlad 366 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: Putin is gathering together is brain trust this afternoon, and 367 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: and he's saying, all right, the America file. What is 368 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: our purpose there? What is what is Vlad Putin thinking 369 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: about when he thinks about the US. So I had 370 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: a really really interesting conversation with a person in the 371 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: intelligence world. They just retired, like this would have been 372 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: the last few months, and they were a very senior 373 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: person deal with Russia, and so we were talking and 374 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 1: apparently there's this big debate in American kind of spy circles. 375 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: Everybody has figured out that that Putin has hung on 376 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: to Trump and is into Trump as he thinks Trump 377 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: can produce some kind of grand bargain that while the 378 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: rest of the Russian government looks at what the US 379 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: is doing and sees actual policies out of the Trump 380 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: administration that are pretty hostile to Russia and says we're not. 381 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 382 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 383 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 384 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like 385 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: noble before half build it greatly. You've found hand stand 386 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: of no mask, no Metro need one. We have a 387 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: few extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep 388 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: the DC area moving. Find out more at will Matta 389 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: dot com slash doing our part. What is the Fisher House? 390 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: If I had a chance to talk to the Fisher family, 391 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: I would start crying because I can't articulate how much 392 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: it meant to us. The Fisher House is to comfort 393 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: home for military and veteran families to staying at no charge, 394 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: allowing the family to be together to support their loved 395 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: one during a medical crisis. It's enough to help you 396 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: thrive through these hard situations. Go to Fisher House dot 397 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: org for more info and how you might help. That's 398 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: Fisher House dot org. Any done in the US, Putin 399 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: still believed Trump can deliver some kind of grand bargain. 400 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: But the big debate is what is this grand bargain 401 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: he wants, you know, and that they can't figure out. 402 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: Is it over CRIMEA? Isn't like spears of influenced CRIMEA 403 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: plus the Middle East, Ukraine. Nobody's entirely shure as they 404 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: just respect they don't really know, and until they can 405 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: figure that one out, it's hard to say. The other 406 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: problem the U s s right now and figuring us 407 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: all out is that a lot of human intelligence sources 408 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: at least have have dried up. Because look, if you're 409 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: looking at the news in the last two years and 410 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: you were somehow providing intelligence to the Americans CIA, to 411 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: think you'd keep doing it, I mean you'd probably shut 412 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: out real quick start avoiding it, because you know, you've 413 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: got congressional committees talking about recently releasing the names of 414 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: actual sources from the FBI, and maybe even even even 415 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: the CIA. You've got just the news. I mean, if 416 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: I were like sitting in the Kremlin as somebody who 417 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: was being paid off by a CIA, got a slip 418 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: occasional secrets, I take the money I had and probably quit. 419 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: Why I was ahead? Why why don't play well? Right? 420 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: Can you describe for folks who are not as hip 421 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: to it as you are the whole program of just 422 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: weakening your adversary by stoking internal rifts and that sort 423 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: of thing that's got quite a history, doesn't it, going 424 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: back to the Soviet Union, it really does. I mean, 425 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: you know, the Soviet Union used to always try this 426 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: kind of supporting different groups in America they thought were divisive, 427 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: whether it's like civil rights groups that they thought, well 428 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: if we if we try and clin definitely support them, 429 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: they'll divide America, or right wing groups, you know, whenever 430 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: they saw any kind of movement that had the ability 431 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: to potentially divide the place that it's important. But you know, 432 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: and like the sixties, a little bit of cash here 433 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: and there, and obviously the print a pamphlet is not 434 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: exactly gonna kind of gonna create a total amount of upheaval. 435 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: We now live in a world where, um, fake news 436 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: and disinformation kind of moves a lot faster than we 437 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: can keep up with it, and so the tools are 438 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: now there to kind of do that with The Soviets 439 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: would have called active measures. I guess, um, Look, the 440 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: other thing is Russia. Is that a climbing power. This 441 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: is a country Its economy is peg mostly the oil 442 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: it is, it is population is shrinking fast. This is 443 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: a country that is not going to be a major power, 444 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: probably in the next century, will fall off. And so 445 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: they're doing what they can. They've modernized our military. But 446 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: another thing they've picked up is like this information warfare. 447 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: This helps, you know, you can weaken the US. But 448 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, there is one important thing here, which is 449 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: none of this works if we're not divided ourselves. You know, 450 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: if we were at a from spot and we weren't 451 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: so divided amongst each other, a bunch of secret Russian 452 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: propaganda making it worse wouldn't have a lot of effect 453 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,479 Speaker 1: with it. Only it only works because we're already kind 454 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: of halfway there. Um, So that's that's somebody to keep 455 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: in mind. They got a lot of nuclear missiles, so 456 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: Russia's worth paying attention to on some level. And obviously 457 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: we've got China coming up to challenges as a global power. 458 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: Do we spend way too much time worried about little 459 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: sand countries in the Middle East? I certainly feels like 460 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: it sometimes, So I always, I always have the sinking feeling. 461 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: So I went from you know, I was based in 462 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: Delhi and covered kind of all of South Asia, and 463 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: then I kind of became our and this, and I 464 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: told the Law Street Journal or Afghanistan, Pakistan Kai, and 465 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: then I joined the Times, and and I always have 466 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: the sinking feeling that I've gone from kind of covering 467 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: like India and then in China of course, like their 468 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: reassertion of their place in the global economic order, as 469 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: these enormous wealthy countries. Kind of like it was like 470 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: the rise of maritime Europe in the fift d You know, 471 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: this this reshapes the arc of history, and this is 472 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: the kind of thing there will be the whole textbooks 473 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: written about and kids will learn about in grade school. 474 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: Whereas the war in Afghanistans felt like the Boer War 475 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: was to the British Empire, you know, um, a little 476 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: war in southern Africa that kind of sorted itself out 477 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: and that's that. Um, I guess that's how we ended 478 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: up with South Africa. But you know, it didn't feel like, 479 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, something that was momentous, and so yeah, yeah, 480 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: I think there's certainly a case made un good Bomb 481 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: administration tried to do it, or at least they made 482 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: lip service about doing it, about their pivot to Asia, 483 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: that we were spending way too much time on countries 484 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: that ultimately, you know, weren't hugely important to us. Um. 485 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: You know, one other important distinction I think between Russia 486 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: and China, because there's it's easy to conflate what the 487 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: two are doing, um, but there's there's a few intelligence 488 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: people and other kind of stratgist types. People will point 489 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: it out to me, like the Chinese are scene is 490 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: playing the game, so if they're listening to the president's 491 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: phone calls, it's raspion of purposes. It's kind of thing 492 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: we do too, you know, and that's it's all in 493 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: the game. You gotta live with it. What the Russians 494 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: are seen doing is trying to kind of do that 495 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: espionage and then use what they're learning to kind of 496 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: screw with the actual institutions, our democracy and undermine them. 497 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: And and that scene is kind of a step much 498 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: further and aggressive steps. So if the Chinese are using 499 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: the information and then trying to hear and say they 500 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: hear the president talk on the phone call, and then 501 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: they go to somebody and who knows somebody who's on 502 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: that phone with the president and try and get them 503 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: to kind of suggest pro China policies, that's using our 504 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: system for their own good. And the US is kind 505 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: of okay with that. They don't love it, but you 506 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: gotta live with it. Whereas you know, the Russians coming 507 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: in and trying to undermine the actual elections, that scene 508 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: is as trying to break the system, you know. To that, 509 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned the phone call thing, which you wrote about 510 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: in the New York Times. By the way, I heard 511 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: the President mentioned that the New York Times is failing. 512 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry to hear that. It's got to be 513 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: very differently, does that we get more subscribers, So I 514 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: would really encourage it, Please please keep doing it. But 515 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: so um you you as a journalist these days working 516 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: for the New York Times, Um, you have a lot 517 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: of people who want your ear. I would imagine, and 518 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people within the administration, maybe within well 519 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: the administration broadly say, within the State Department. I was 520 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: asking who wrote the anonymous column? Are you kidding? That 521 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: seems like fifty years ago? I don't care for you, 522 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: but that i'd have to kill you. Yeah, that's fine. 523 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: Some days I'd welcome no. But anyway, So, how this 524 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: is a journalism question. How difficult is it when you 525 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: get a pretty well placed source you get the sense 526 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: they got an ex to grind. It sounds juicy, but 527 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 1: it sounds kind of off this gossipy what's that process like? 528 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: Working through that deciding whether to print it? Alright, First 529 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: of all, when you when you get a well placed 530 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: source of an act to grind, it's like, thank god, 531 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: it's great number one. They're going to talk. That's always 532 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: a good star, right, And then you know, you look 533 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: at what they say, and there are some things people 534 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: say you're like this, this is highly improbable, or you 535 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: ask yourself, well, would they know this? And if the 536 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: answers yes, they okay, we gotta find some other people 537 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: who know it too, and you will find people who 538 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: are then probably have less of an act to grind 539 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: or no act to grind who know it and will 540 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: help confirm it. So you get the friend of a 541 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: friend so pretty frequently. Huh yeah. And you know it's 542 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: why when we use it, when we use anonymous sources, 543 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: which look, I hate it, and I think for readers 544 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: think most of them don't like it either. Unfortunately, in 545 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: national security reporting, you've got to do it. There's almost 546 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: no way not to do it because so much stuff 547 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: is either classified or restricted and people either lose their 548 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: jobs to go to prison for talking to you, so 549 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: you you just can't get around it. Um. And So, 550 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: but when we do that, we don't rely on single 551 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: sources for stories. You know, somebody comes to me that 552 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: actor ryand and tells me something that they absolutely have 553 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: access to and absolutely sounds accurate. That's not good enough, 554 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, because it's one source and it's anonymous. We're 555 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: gonna do a hodtest sourcing a lot of multiple sources 556 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: on that, especially if it's a truly incendiary story. You know, 557 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: that's just going to raise the bar even higher. Interesting, Um, 558 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: how much damage does that? Said, that's what I like 559 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: to say a message to anybody in the government, Um, 560 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: don't be intimidated. We always want more sources. Don't think 561 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: what you've got as to minor. Please give us a call. 562 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: You ever get stuff you think people shouldn't know this, 563 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: people don't need to know this. Um are you all 564 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: the information we deserve, all the information into democracy. So 565 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm gon kind of. I think I'll start with 566 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt, like it all should be public, 567 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: and work backwards in there. And we have definitely held stories, 568 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: were held information out of the paper, either at the 569 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: request of the government, which has made a very good 570 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: case that was not political about why this was important 571 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: to keep to maintain a secret, or you know, it's 572 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: an identity of somebody is going to get them killed 573 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: and something like that. You know, that's something that we 574 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: don't want to do. And so we know the name 575 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: of somebody putting in the newspaper is going to lead 576 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: to their death, then we're not going to do that. 577 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna a conversation about that. And on 578 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 1: the other hand, like look, I just said to think 579 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: about keeping information out of the paper. You know, more 580 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: often than not we will have the CIA or the 581 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: White House whatever try and tell us, well, the thing 582 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: is really secret. If you do this it's gonna ruin 583 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: national security. And those arguments are usually overatly political and ignored, 584 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: but there have been moments where they have commented, look, 585 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: you know this is an active program. If you do this, 586 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: it's going to undermine it. And we don't like you 587 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: know that kind of thing outweighs the news value of 588 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: it well, and there are some hints as to who 589 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: a source might be or how a program operates. That 590 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: to the untrained I wouldn't mean much. But if you are, 591 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: for instance, in the you know Russian uh, the modern 592 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: equivalent of the KGB, and you're trying to figure out 593 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: who's spelling secrets, man, a tiny little clue might be enough. 594 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: So you do have to be careful with that stuff 595 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: we do. I mean, I think we also have to 596 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: be realistic, Like, if we have figured it out, there 597 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: aren't that many of us who cover this stuff at 598 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: the times. So if we have figured out, let's assume 599 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: that fall and spy services with lots of people probably 600 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: figure it out too. Yeah, okay, fair enough. So who 601 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: did you really admire as a journalist, writer, opinion writer, 602 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: any any heroes as a young lad? As a young lad, 603 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I know now I look 604 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: at some of the people I've even worked with or 605 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: seeing their work. You know, Um, my former colleague gem 606 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: Rising was amazing as an amazing journalist. Um uh Sy Hirst, 607 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, despite his more recent issues. I mean, this 608 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: is a guy who dug up information that that led 609 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: to a huge amount of reform, Like there's actual congressional 610 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: oversight of the CIA and saying others the work that 611 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: this one guy did, and that's pretty amazing, and that's 612 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: an amazing impact. Um, you know, and I think part 613 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: of me I just appreciate people who, as they get older, 614 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: don't decide whong going to be part of the establishment 615 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: now who keep throwing bombs because I mean, like, look, 616 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: if I wanted to be part of the government, would 617 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: have joined the government, you know, if I one of 618 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: those at balls, I became a journalist. So I don't 619 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: see why that should be different. At fifty five. Um, 620 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned that you mentioned the c I and and 621 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: you know they push back against if you want to 622 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: print a story and all that sort of stuff. Do um, 623 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: do those kind of institutions change much administration to administration 624 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: or do they Does the c I a tend be 625 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: the CIA, whether it's under Bush or Obama. We'll leave 626 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: Trump out of it because people get so worked up 627 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: any time you talk about Trump. But like Bush, is 628 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: Bush of CIA going to be the same as Obama CIA, 629 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: and that they're going to protect the CIA. Yeah, they're 630 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: gonna protect the CIA. I mean the difference is is like, look, 631 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: they're gonna work for the guy who's the president, so um, 632 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: whoever that is, they may changement, but they don't. I mean, 633 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: the institutions are are set up like, look, we have 634 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: set up a trementisfied institution to be kind of perpetual 635 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: as a as as somewhat a stafeguard. You know, we 636 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: see power to them away from representatives and provide continuity 637 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: or the CIA is not gonna go out and start 638 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 1: doing crazy differ and things as becas Trump as presidents 639 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: are going to start suplying on Americans, for instance, they 640 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: can't do that. The laws against that. Um. I think, 641 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, they might be pretty happy over the CIA 642 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: that Trump is has loosened some of the restrictions on 643 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: what they can do. I mean, there are certainly people 644 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: who there who are very happy. There are plenty of 645 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: other people who are totally unhappy that they think he 646 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: he is has you know, come in and said terrible 647 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: things and under mine American position the world to made 648 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: their jobs harder. Um. But it remains the CIA. I 649 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: always ask people like you, that's my final question that 650 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: that have you know, a proving the information that now 651 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: the not all the rest of us are plus you 652 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: stared at every single day. Is the average American citizen 653 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: got a pretty good idea how scary the world is 654 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: or we way off base based on what you know? 655 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, um, And so I think 656 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: the average American probably has is more afraid of the 657 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: world than they should be and doesn't realize what they 658 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: should be afraid of all. And that's not it's not 659 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: it's off because um, it's not because you're innerstupid. It's 660 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: just because, like you know, you live in this very 661 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: big country. You don't have to interact with the rest 662 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: of the world very often. If you're the average American 663 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: and you're pretty secure, you know, you know, you can 664 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: go to bed at night without to be coming to 665 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: kick down your door. It's still your stuff or whatever. 666 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: And that's a great thing. Like I think it's it's 667 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: we under that we really do. Hell yeah, most of 668 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: the world, most of human history, everywhere on the planet, 669 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: has that to go to bed every night worried somebody's 670 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: gonna come in and kill them and their kids. Huh No, 671 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: it's great and we we and it's I actually think 672 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: it's a good thing. Like our ignorance is a sign 673 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: of our prosperity and success in some ways. Um. I mean, 674 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: we should all strive to be lastic right all the time. 675 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: And I even know that. You know, the one thing 676 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: I learned that spend fifteen years living around the world 677 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: is how little I know about that. You know, I 678 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: go to these places and I think I know something. 679 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: But it's like I said, you know, a housewife in 680 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: Congo or Afghanistan or wherever knows more about her own 681 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: kind of part of the world than I ever will, 682 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: or any foreigner probably will. Um. But you know so yeah. 683 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: But because but because we know so little, we're very 684 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: easy to scare about the rest of the world. You know, 685 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: whether it's a migrant caravan of a few thousand people 686 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: who are a thousand miles away, and you know, there's 687 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: a big chunk of country believes these guys are coming 688 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: to kind of overrun the country. Or you know, it's 689 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: a small small group of militants in the mountains of 690 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: Pakistan and Afghanistan who did launch a very successful attack 691 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: September levenoth and have launched other attacks. But but really 692 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: do not pose any kind of existential threat to us, 693 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, mostly afraid of shark attacks and killer clowns 694 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: that do. I have it about right? Yeah, I mean too, 695 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: Um and I'm I'm afraid of airplanes too. I can't 696 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: stand him, but I always figured the most dangerous thing 697 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: we all did with drive, you know, every day time 698 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: or just crossing the street. I mean, that's how you 699 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: get killed. You know, it's not it's not in a 700 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: terrorist attack attack because of a lot of our listeners 701 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: swing conservative, and I can hear him yelling at the podcast. 702 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: I've also got to point out the idea that Trump 703 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: is the new Hitler, or women are going to be 704 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: forced to breed, or he'll be an autocrat is ridiculous. 705 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: It's laughable. He couldn't get a quarter of the way 706 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: to first base, um and become an autocrat. Look, I 707 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: mean there's a Trump arrangement syndrome is definitely a thing. 708 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: Um And I think, you know, you've seen it the 709 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: last two years. Here, it's it's on the right and left. 710 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: You've got a kind of fringe ideas. Move into the middle, 711 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: you know, and making that space where everybody can kind 712 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: of chat and disagree but kind of agree to, kind 713 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: of work together among your disagreements has made that much smaller. 714 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: But I mean, Trump is what he is. You know, 715 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: he's got his many flaws. But New Hitler is a 716 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: pretty big stretch. We talked to p J O'Rourke a 717 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago and he said, whose idea was it? 718 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: To make it so all the stupid people could talk 719 00:35:53,800 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: to each other? He was talking about the Internet. I mean, look, 720 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: it's it's it's definitely not a good thing. You know. 721 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: I would prefer a president who after a tragedy gets 722 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 1: up and talks about the tragedy. And I would include Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, 723 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: all of them in that group, you know, over a 724 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: president who doesn't um. And so you know, there's definitely 725 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: things you want different. But I mean new Hitler is 726 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: nobody's a New Hitler until they're New Hitler. And we're 727 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: far from that point. Yeah, amen to that Matthew Rosenberg. 728 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: Hey Matt, it's great to talk to you. I hope 729 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: it won't be the last time. And and let's stay 730 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: in touch. Well done, excellent, thanks has our pleasure, Thank 731 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: you good stuff. Um God, dang it. If you want 732 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: to be thankful for anything on a on a daily basis, 733 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: or thank your blessings, if you were born in the 734 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: United States or you now live in the United States, 735 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: that that that should be at the top of your 736 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: Let you be one through ten at the top of 737 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: your list. Well, and as we've discussed that, if you 738 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: are safe and prosperous, you invent things to be worried about, 739 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: because your brain has that big heart of it that's 740 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: dedicated to warning you about stuff. And if there's little 741 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: to warn you about other than you know, the guy 742 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: looking at his cell phone in the next lane if 743 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: you're driving, Um, I'm worried about clowns writing sharks toward me. 744 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: Imagine the horror of that coming out of the edge 745 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: of the woods. But some of those African places he's 746 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: talking about, where there's just no law, you'd be fighting 747 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: for your life every single day, trying to keep you 748 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: and your family protected. Oh my god, being fully aware 749 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: that much of Africa is desert and or savannah. It 750 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: is the law of the jungle in that the strong 751 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: will win the day period. There's no such thing as 752 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: as that's not good for justice, sir, I'm weedy. Yeah, Well, 753 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: run for cover, find some strong friends, or maybe I 754 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: could amuse people like a court Jester type. Well, I 755 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: would amuse them for firearms and accumulate as many firearms 756 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: and as much ammunation. He's a tough guy with the machete. 757 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: He keeps me around because I amuse him. It's good 758 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: work if you can get it. Court Jester. Hey, you 759 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: know one thing I did want to point out again 760 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: are our listeners of a more conservative stripe. Matthew Rosenberg. 761 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: He works for the New York Times. He's written some stories. 762 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: I'm fairly critical of um and or the White House 763 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: denied outright and I don't know what to think and 764 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: all and a lot of you want us to argue 765 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: with a guy like Matt about you know, the New 766 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: York Times and bias and the rest of it. And 767 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: we could, but I think that would be so predictable 768 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: and it would go nowhere. I'm much more interested in 769 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: hearing what he has seen and learned in his years 770 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: around um, you know, Asia, Africa, the Middle East as 771 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: a foreign correspondent. I really think that's a more interesting conversation. 772 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: Really want to trade my life with anybody, but i'd 773 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: i'd like to have, you know, done a little of 774 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: what he's done, be in some of these places around 775 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: the world. Yes, see it, instead of just read about it. Yeah, yeah, 776 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 1: I would agree. Wouldn't be always, wouldn't always be pleasant, 777 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: I'm sure no. Plenty of sacrifices in that line of work, 778 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: and you'd see some god awful things you'd never forget. Yes, yes, 779 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: you would. Anyway, next time, we'll talk to Next time, 780 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: let's talk to Phoebe from friends. That's what I keep saying. Yeah, 781 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: we tried that once. That's right, didn't work out very well. 782 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: Well maybe if we had a longer time to stretch 783 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: out and really talk to him. You get into so 784 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: it was he stupid or Joe was stupid? Yes, anyways, 785 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: see you next time when you're ready to ride Metro. 786 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: We want you to know we're ready for you. Here 787 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: are just a few of the people at Metro to 788 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: tell you how we're doing our part to keep riders safe. 789 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: We're cleaning like Neville before, half built it greatly. You've 790 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: found hair stands the station, no mask, no Metro need one. 791 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: We have a few extras at Metro. We're doing our 792 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: part to keep the DC area moving. Find out more 793 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,479 Speaker 1: at well mata dot com slash doing our part.