WEBVTT - Inside the NBA Players Association 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:23.716 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:23.756 --> 0:00:27.076 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.516 --> 0:00:31.596 I'm Noah Feldman. As we've explored a wide range of 0:00:31.636 --> 0:00:34.916 aspects of power this season on Deep Background, we have 0:00:35.116 --> 0:00:37.876 not yet had the opportunity to talk about one of 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:40.116 the areas of power that I'm most interested at a 0:00:40.156 --> 0:00:43.196 personal level, and that is the deployment of power in 0:00:43.356 --> 0:00:47.316 professional sports. Today, we get the chance to take that 0:00:47.436 --> 0:00:52.436 question on directly. We're joined by Michelle Roberts, who is 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:57.116 the executive director of the National Basketball Players Association, that is, 0:00:57.356 --> 0:01:00.636 the NBA players Union. She's the first woman to hold 0:01:00.676 --> 0:01:03.476 that job, and indeed the first woman to head a 0:01:03.556 --> 0:01:07.756 major professional sports union in North America. Michelle came to 0:01:07.796 --> 0:01:11.716 this job through a rather usual pathway. She began her 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:14.636 career as a lawyer as a public defender in the 0:01:14.676 --> 0:01:17.996 Public Defender Service for the District of Columbia, where she 0:01:18.076 --> 0:01:21.836 was mentored by the great Charles Ogletree, who himself went 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:24.876 on to become a famous and influential professor of criminal 0:01:24.956 --> 0:01:28.996 law at Harvard Law School. As a litigator, Michelle was 0:01:29.076 --> 0:01:34.396 known as fearsome and powerful, and she moved ultimately from 0:01:34.476 --> 0:01:38.156 the public Defender's office to working as a litigator at 0:01:38.236 --> 0:01:42.236 major Washington DC law firms, in which role she was 0:01:42.476 --> 0:01:46.516 widely noted as one of the most experienced and successful 0:01:46.876 --> 0:01:52.676 and frightening litigators anywhere in the United States. From there, 0:01:52.756 --> 0:01:56.516 Michelle went straight to the NBA Players Association, and her 0:01:56.556 --> 0:02:00.956 tenure has been marked by some remarkable historical transformations in 0:02:00.956 --> 0:02:04.116 the role and identity of players, not to mention by 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:08.796 the particularities of COVID, including the bubble experience and more 0:02:08.836 --> 0:02:11.876 recent the efforts of the league to come to terms 0:02:11.876 --> 0:02:16.276 with vaccination. In short, Michelle is ideally placed to bring 0:02:16.396 --> 0:02:19.116 us behind the scenes and explain to us a little 0:02:19.116 --> 0:02:23.316 bit about how power operates in professional sports in general 0:02:23.596 --> 0:02:27.036 and in the NBA in particular. We're thrilled that she 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:35.316 was able to join us. Michelle, thank you so much 0:02:35.356 --> 0:02:39.036 for being here. On deep background, our theme this year 0:02:39.116 --> 0:02:41.036 is power, and what we try to do on the 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:44.756 show is bring listeners who are pretty good at following 0:02:44.796 --> 0:02:46.636 the news and knowing what's going on on the surface 0:02:46.636 --> 0:02:50.156 of things behind the scenes to try to understand how 0:02:50.276 --> 0:02:53.436 power actually gets deployed in the times in places where 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:55.956 it does get deployed, and in some sense your job 0:02:56.076 --> 0:02:59.756 is like the archetype of that, because everyone knows what 0:02:59.796 --> 0:03:02.836 the NBA Players Association is on one level or another, 0:03:03.196 --> 0:03:06.036 and they know that as executive director, you're both speaking 0:03:06.036 --> 0:03:08.276 on behalf of the players and also trying to get 0:03:08.316 --> 0:03:11.476 them all on the same page. And they all understand 0:03:11.516 --> 0:03:15.676 that you're both collaborative with the league and also occasionally 0:03:15.916 --> 0:03:19.716 oppositional to it, where your interests and their interests diverge. 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:23.356 And I think that's basically all that anybody understands about 0:03:23.356 --> 0:03:26.436 how their relationship actually works. So I wonder if you 0:03:26.436 --> 0:03:29.636 would just start for readers who know that much but 0:03:29.716 --> 0:03:33.956 probably not much more, by describing how you think about 0:03:34.076 --> 0:03:36.756 the power of the players and their association and how 0:03:36.756 --> 0:03:40.116 it operates in relation to the power of the owners 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:44.476 in the league. It's a bit of a dance because historically, 0:03:44.876 --> 0:03:48.716 not just in basketball but across all sports, players were 0:03:48.756 --> 0:03:53.036 never expected to be in any position to exercise power. 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:57.916 The relationship between professional athletes and team owners has always 0:03:57.956 --> 0:04:01.636 been one of aren't you lucky that I'm willing to 0:04:01.676 --> 0:04:05.516 fund this team and pay you to play? And there 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:09.596 was this perception that the players were owned thing, but 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:14.756 the opportunity, and beyond that, the ownership had the right 0:04:14.796 --> 0:04:18.236 to generate as much revenue as it could and dole 0:04:18.276 --> 0:04:20.756 out whatever money it thought was appropriate to the players. 0:04:21.236 --> 0:04:23.796 That there was no sort of sense that we're in 0:04:23.876 --> 0:04:26.636 this together. You can't do this without me from the 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:32.316 player's perspective, and that has changed dramatically. Obviously, in my view, 0:04:32.436 --> 0:04:36.916 the advent of the union made a real difference. It 0:04:37.116 --> 0:04:40.916 was not until they organized and demanded the very beginning 0:04:40.916 --> 0:04:44.116 a pension planet's just just a pension plan, not the 0:04:44.156 --> 0:04:47.276 compensation that we're talking about now. There was only when 0:04:47.316 --> 0:04:50.436 they threatened not to perform, not to play, that they 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:53.996 began to exercise for the first time. Power. Fast forward 0:04:54.076 --> 0:04:58.276 sixteen seventy five years and you've got players who are 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:03.596 obviously have done well in terms of increasing their compensation, 0:05:03.676 --> 0:05:07.356 but the work hasn't ended. There's much more to be done. Frankly, 0:05:07.396 --> 0:05:11.756 even now there are occasionally when I gently have to 0:05:11.796 --> 0:05:14.636 remind the league and the owners that you don't tell 0:05:14.756 --> 0:05:17.516 us what to do. We negotiate how we're going to 0:05:17.676 --> 0:05:21.596 behave knock on wood. Things have been pretty good in 0:05:21.636 --> 0:05:24.796 the past seven eight years. We've enjoyed labor piece, but 0:05:24.916 --> 0:05:28.916 it's a constant push and pull because I think your 0:05:29.036 --> 0:05:33.036 historical DNA if you're an owner, is well, why don't 0:05:33.036 --> 0:05:36.716 I have to get permission from them I'm the owner. Well, 0:05:36.796 --> 0:05:40.436 players don't see it that way any longer. So we manage. 0:05:40.556 --> 0:05:44.876 But sometimes it's a little bit more stressful than other times. 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:47.316 We're in a good place. Now, I'm going to ask 0:05:47.316 --> 0:05:50.076 you about that word owner and it's complexity. In a 0:05:50.156 --> 0:05:52.676 moment before I do you use the word that really 0:05:52.676 --> 0:05:55.756 fascinated me, you said you gently remind them, And I 0:05:55.796 --> 0:05:58.076 guess what I wanted to ask you is obviously, when 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:01.556 relations are good, you can be gentle. But it seems 0:06:01.556 --> 0:06:05.796 like the relationship between in this industry, at least between 0:06:05.836 --> 0:06:11.876 management and labor is basically on something not very gentle 0:06:11.876 --> 0:06:16.436 at all. Namely, you have one really really big leverage point, 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:19.316 which is that without your players, there would be no NBA. 0:06:19.876 --> 0:06:22.036 But the only way you can really exercise that leverage 0:06:22.116 --> 0:06:25.276 ultimately would be to walk, and that would cause everybody 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:29.156 an enormous amount of money. Meanwhile, from the owner's perspective 0:06:29.236 --> 0:06:32.276 or from the league's perspective, they really really don't want 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:34.436 that to happen, and they want to make exactly zero 0:06:34.516 --> 0:06:38.196 concessions except for the ones that would lead to that happening. 0:06:39.036 --> 0:06:42.036 So I guess what I'm wondering is, how do you 0:06:42.076 --> 0:06:46.236 do gentle in a world where both sides understand that 0:06:46.316 --> 0:06:50.316 the biggest, the only threat really is the enormous threat. 0:06:50.836 --> 0:06:53.676 How do you lower the temperature in that way? You 0:06:53.676 --> 0:06:58.036 know it's it's by reminding, if necessary, that we're talking 0:06:58.116 --> 0:07:02.356 the potential from mutual destruction. Right, this is a multi 0:07:02.396 --> 0:07:05.636 billion dollar industry, and as wealthy as the owners are, 0:07:05.636 --> 0:07:08.396 and frankly as wealthy as the players are, no one 0:07:08.476 --> 0:07:10.756 wants to walk away from this huge part of gold. 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:14.836 No one does. We are grown ups, they're adults. We 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:18.676 can scream and yell and threaten and eventually not get anywhere. 0:07:18.876 --> 0:07:21.996 Or we can and again we'll gently agree we don't 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:25.596 want to go there. It's a no one's interests not 0:07:25.636 --> 0:07:28.636 to mention our fans. For us to stop playing, they 0:07:28.676 --> 0:07:31.756 will do damage to our business. But I'm happy to 0:07:31.796 --> 0:07:35.316 report is that most people are pretty smart and sufficiently 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:39.516 self interesting that they won't go there. And so you know, 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:44.076 in our last CBA negotiation, we had some difficult negotiating sessions, 0:07:44.116 --> 0:07:46.636 but as long as we kept in mind that it 0:07:46.716 --> 0:07:49.396 was in the best interest of everyone in that room 0:07:49.476 --> 0:07:53.276 that we keep this business operating. We were able to 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:55.196 tone things down when they got a little bit too 0:07:55.316 --> 0:07:58.756 volatile and figure out that we had to figure something out. 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:00.956 If people say it all the time, it's someone cliche 0:08:01.116 --> 0:08:04.116 that the best negotiations are one where everybody goes away 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:06.836 thinking that they wanted a little bit more, but at 0:08:06.876 --> 0:08:08.956 the same time goes away believing I can live with 0:08:09.556 --> 0:08:12.636 That's why you have to be When I was preparing 0:08:12.716 --> 0:08:14.956 to talk to you, I went back and read the 0:08:15.036 --> 0:08:18.276 interviews that you gave early after you took over as 0:08:18.276 --> 0:08:21.476 executive director in twenty fourteen, and then I read some 0:08:21.636 --> 0:08:24.436 conversations and listened to some conversations that you had more recently, 0:08:25.036 --> 0:08:28.156 and I noticed, at least I think I noticed what 0:08:28.356 --> 0:08:31.196 I imagine might have been a subtle strategy. And since 0:08:31.396 --> 0:08:33.996 your successor has recently been announced, maybe you're willing to 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:36.836 share a few tricks of the trade. Was it conscious 0:08:36.876 --> 0:08:41.556 on your part to open by saying, I have a 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:44.436 lot of cards in my hand, and I'm going to 0:08:44.676 --> 0:08:46.716 call things out when they need to be called out. 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:49.796 Before I've engaged in any negotiation, I'm going to use 0:08:49.796 --> 0:08:52.116 words like monopoly, because it is a monopoly. I'm going 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:55.276 to say it's preposterous that they would blocks total salaries. 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:57.916 I'm going to say, good luck if the owners play 0:08:57.956 --> 0:08:59.796 the games, which I thought was a very good line. 0:08:59.916 --> 0:09:01.636 They used it, let's have the owners play out the games. 0:09:01.756 --> 0:09:03.956 And then I watched over the course of the next 0:09:03.956 --> 0:09:08.556 six seven years as you came to be praised alongside 0:09:08.676 --> 0:09:12.756 the the league for having this incredibly positive relationship, especially 0:09:12.756 --> 0:09:15.796 compared to other professional sports leagues, and it's like your 0:09:15.836 --> 0:09:19.836 rhetoric just mellowed out a little bit because presumably you 0:09:19.876 --> 0:09:22.516 were winning. So am I Am I getting any of 0:09:22.556 --> 0:09:25.276 that right? You know? I can't claim that there was 0:09:25.316 --> 0:09:28.676 a grand strategy or design. I will say this, I 0:09:28.796 --> 0:09:31.956 knew that nobody knew what in the heck I was 0:09:31.996 --> 0:09:33.956 going to do when I got when I got right, 0:09:34.476 --> 0:09:38.756 I had no prior history in sports, let alone in basketball, right, 0:09:38.756 --> 0:09:41.836 So I, frankly, rather than view that as being a 0:09:41.876 --> 0:09:45.196 bit of a negative or disadvantage, view that as a 0:09:45.236 --> 0:09:48.916 positive because no one had a book on me. And 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:51.036 what I didn't want people to think was that I 0:09:51.116 --> 0:09:54.036 was shy. Not I wish I'd been accused of that. 0:09:54.116 --> 0:09:56.996 Once maybe in my life, but that having been me either, 0:09:57.116 --> 0:09:59.076 so it's all right, And I didn't want to be dishonest, 0:09:59.116 --> 0:10:01.316 and so I thought the questions that were being posed 0:10:01.316 --> 0:10:03.356 to me were fair. You know, what do you think 0:10:03.396 --> 0:10:06.716 about the salary cap? I still think it's preposterous. I 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:09.996 think it's absolutely outrageous that only in professional sports and 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:15.356 basketball and football do you have a talented person not 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:18.516 being able to get as much money as he or 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:21.436 she can be paid. Right, it's insane that it's not illegal. 0:10:21.476 --> 0:10:23.676 It's hard to believe that it's not illegal. Not illegal 0:10:23.716 --> 0:10:26.756 because it's been collectively bargained. That's the point. You can 0:10:26.756 --> 0:10:30.196 get all this stuff as long as it's been collectively bargained, 0:10:30.396 --> 0:10:32.396 and that's the point. So I was just telling the truth. 0:10:32.516 --> 0:10:35.636 I was answering questions. Honestly, I think it was making 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:39.116 the owners then the league nervous, and frankly they should 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:41.916 have been. And I didn't do it to scare anyone. 0:10:42.036 --> 0:10:44.236 I just wanted everyone to understand that this is my 0:10:44.356 --> 0:10:48.236 view of how this business is structured. But I'm not 0:10:48.276 --> 0:10:51.596 an idiot. I understand collective bargaining, and all the things 0:10:51.676 --> 0:10:56.516 I purported to be preposterous were collectively bargained. Am I 0:10:56.596 --> 0:10:59.316 being dismissive of the efforts that went into those negotiations? No, 0:10:59.516 --> 0:11:02.236 because I wasn't there, and that was a time when 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:06.236 leverage was not were leverages today for players. But I 0:11:06.276 --> 0:11:10.356 still think that having a cap system is Frankly, if 0:11:10.356 --> 0:11:11.956 I had my way, there would be no cat, there 0:11:11.956 --> 0:11:15.476 would be no salary. So but you know, like I said, 0:11:15.956 --> 0:11:17.476 I'm not God, and I don't think I'm going to 0:11:17.556 --> 0:11:19.876 be God tomorrow, so I understand that these things have 0:11:19.956 --> 0:11:23.076 to be negotiated. You had an unusual background, as you 0:11:23.116 --> 0:11:25.916 were just alluding to. You came to this job, which 0:11:25.996 --> 0:11:29.556 is a job about negotiation, from a background in litigation, 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:33.636 where you had started as a federal public defender in Washington, 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:37.316 DC and worked with a great Charles Ogletree and my wonderful, 0:11:37.316 --> 0:11:39.196 wonderful colleague, and you know, one of the more inspiring 0:11:39.236 --> 0:11:42.196 people I've ever had a chance to work alongside. And 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:46.836 then you became a private side litigator, and you know, 0:11:46.956 --> 0:11:49.436 everyone feared you, because that's how you succeed as a 0:11:49.476 --> 0:11:51.436 good litigator. Right If you're not feared, you're not a 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:54.916 successful litigator. And it worked, were you in some sense 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:57.236 able to play on that. You know, people thought, oh 0:11:57.276 --> 0:11:59.676 my goodness, you know, if she goes to war, we 0:11:59.876 --> 0:12:02.516 really do not want to be on the other side 0:12:02.516 --> 0:12:05.116 of that. And then sure enough you didn't have to 0:12:05.156 --> 0:12:07.396 go to war. Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons 0:12:07.436 --> 0:12:10.276 that I like being a lawyer was not because I 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:13.356 liked having a law degree. I like litigation, and I 0:12:13.436 --> 0:12:15.876 even make a distinction between litigation and trial work. And 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:18.156 one of the things I used to drive me really crazy, 0:12:18.356 --> 0:12:20.636 just especially in my old life, just before I got 0:12:20.716 --> 0:12:22.596 this job, is that I had these cases I was 0:12:22.636 --> 0:12:27.676 litigating was so big, and frankly you won by settling, right, 0:12:27.716 --> 0:12:29.876 And but I'd get hired on these big cases and 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:32.516 I'd say, look, you all have a settlement negotiation team. 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:35.916 That's not me. I want to fight, all right, So 0:12:36.076 --> 0:12:37.996 you let me know if you don't. If you settled it, 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:39.356 I don't want to be distracted, and I don't want 0:12:39.396 --> 0:12:41.116 my team to be distracted. We've got to be ready 0:12:41.116 --> 0:12:44.916 for war. But when they settled, I'd be a little disappointed. 0:12:44.916 --> 0:12:46.796 Becaust I had a great opening statement I was about 0:12:46.836 --> 0:12:48.956 to deliver, but I knew it wasn't the best interest 0:12:48.996 --> 0:12:51.076 of the client. That the client and decided to settle 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:55.716 and CBA negotiations here. You know, I'm not, like I said, 0:12:55.796 --> 0:12:59.116 I am completely appreciative of the fact that that's why 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:02.596 they call it collective bargaining, because you're bargaining. At the 0:13:02.636 --> 0:13:05.476 same time, there are some people who have had this role, 0:13:05.796 --> 0:13:08.956 or who have had this role in other sports that 0:13:09.316 --> 0:13:12.516 just risk averse that are known to the league and 0:13:12.596 --> 0:13:16.676 teams and not wanting to fight. I don't want to fight. 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:20.636 I don't mind a good fight that I will. There 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:23.036 were times when we had to say, now, this is 0:13:23.076 --> 0:13:25.156 something we'll go to war on because this is just 0:13:25.516 --> 0:13:28.916 fundamentally unfair what you're trying to do. It's all about 0:13:29.636 --> 0:13:32.316 knowing what your leverage is, knowing what your players will 0:13:32.356 --> 0:13:36.636 not stand for, and then making the argument on their behalf. 0:13:36.996 --> 0:13:40.516 That's what lawyers do. I want to zoom back out 0:13:40.596 --> 0:13:44.636 to the deeper dynamics of power between the players and 0:13:45.236 --> 0:13:47.796 the owners, and I just want to double click on 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:52.556 that word owner. Technically, the owner owns a franchise and 0:13:52.596 --> 0:13:57.636 then is the employer of players. The word, though, has 0:13:57.676 --> 0:14:02.436 a kind of cultural capital, and you were suggesting earlier 0:14:02.476 --> 0:14:04.756 that that word somehow actually does say something about at 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:10.476 least a mindset of management. Do you think it's actively 0:14:10.596 --> 0:14:15.196 different in professional sports as a consequence than it is 0:14:15.556 --> 0:14:19.436 in other professions that, let's say, are connected to entertainment, 0:14:19.676 --> 0:14:23.196 you know, the film business, where you have high paid 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:29.916 talent and then you have studios and so forth. To 0:14:30.156 --> 0:14:33.156 the league's credit, they have tried to substitute the word 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:39.436 governor for the word owner, and it's made some of 0:14:39.436 --> 0:14:42.316 my players pleased because they are offended by the word 0:14:42.356 --> 0:14:44.556 owner on some levels. I am too. I think I'm 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:46.876 just the world that I'm used to hearing it, so 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:50.876 I remember I use governor as well. But the addition 0:14:50.916 --> 0:14:53.836 of the fact that most of the players in the 0:14:53.916 --> 0:15:00.116 NBA are African American and most of the governors are white, 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:07.676 it's especially disturbing. A case in point, Donald Sterling, who 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:11.276 used to own the and again own the LA Clippers 0:15:12.036 --> 0:15:15.076 Stories and Merge that he would literally go into the 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:18.476 locker rooms of the LA Clipper players, and Chris Paul 0:15:18.556 --> 0:15:21.396 tells this one of the films he did about this. 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:25.276 Sterling would go in and he'd be rubbing the players, 0:15:25.476 --> 0:15:29.676 and Chris reports that he felt like he was being petted, right, 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:31.756 and then the governors of the teams that we have 0:15:31.956 --> 0:15:36.516 now are frankly much younger, much more entrepreneurial, and have 0:15:36.796 --> 0:15:38.996 I think a better met mindset than some of the 0:15:39.396 --> 0:15:41.516 governors some of the owners of these teams back in 0:15:41.556 --> 0:15:47.956 the day. So there's a little less concern about the title, 0:15:48.156 --> 0:15:51.716 though we appreciate the change. On occasion, though the league 0:15:51.716 --> 0:15:54.636 will communicate repeat to us comments made by some of 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:58.316 the team governors that suggest that the mentality is not 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:03.556 quite gone. I'd prefer to and the league reports too 0:16:03.556 --> 0:16:07.316 as well us as partners, and that that's a much 0:16:07.316 --> 0:16:10.956 more palatable word than owner, and I don't want to 0:16:10.956 --> 0:16:13.996 play games. You own the team, you own the franchise, whatever, 0:16:14.236 --> 0:16:17.076 but you be very careful when you begin to use 0:16:17.116 --> 0:16:21.396 that concept and can refer to the employees. We'll be 0:16:21.476 --> 0:16:34.156 right back. One of the most significant historical changes over 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:38.156 your time in your job has been the rise of 0:16:38.676 --> 0:16:43.836 NBA players, especially African American players, as major voices on 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:48.196 crucial national questions of importance, most significantly on race, an 0:16:48.196 --> 0:16:51.356 association with Black Lives Matter, but not only on racially 0:16:51.396 --> 0:16:54.076 related issues. Of course, we have that legacy in the 0:16:54.156 --> 0:16:56.236 United States going back to nineteen sixties in the form 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.436 of Muhammad Ali, but you know, he was in a 0:16:58.436 --> 0:17:01.356 different kind of a sport with its own very complicated dynamics, 0:17:01.716 --> 0:17:04.676 and there wasn't a league that he was actively a 0:17:04.796 --> 0:17:07.636 part of. And of course there have been individually individual 0:17:07.716 --> 0:17:10.996 NBA players Premu Bards another great example, who had strong 0:17:11.076 --> 0:17:13.996 identities and took strong stands, not an accident. In both 0:17:13.996 --> 0:17:15.796 of those cases, the Nation of Islam were part of 0:17:15.836 --> 0:17:18.516 the way that they made statements. But there's really been 0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:23.956 a main streaming of the expectation that NBA players are 0:17:24.316 --> 0:17:29.636 de facto leaders of public consciousness, both for white and 0:17:29.796 --> 0:17:34.196 for black people. And I'm wondering as you watch that happen, 0:17:35.116 --> 0:17:36.676 how much of it do you think was driven by 0:17:36.716 --> 0:17:39.756 the aspirations of the players, how much of it by 0:17:39.796 --> 0:17:43.076 the expectations of the public, how much by the fact 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:46.156 that it's also a period of time historically where NBA 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:48.916 players came to be extremely well paid, so that now 0:17:49.396 --> 0:17:53.636 black NBA players were among the best paid prominent African 0:17:53.636 --> 0:17:57.076 Americans in the country, and which confers a certain obligation 0:17:57.076 --> 0:18:01.636 of leadership. Arguably, Yeah, I think a little bit of 0:18:01.716 --> 0:18:03.676 all that may be there, but I think the principal 0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:07.916 component is the players themselves, right, I mean, there are 0:18:07.996 --> 0:18:10.956 any fans who are pushing them into the streets and 0:18:10.956 --> 0:18:13.836 into protests. In back. Quite the contrary, we get a 0:18:13.876 --> 0:18:16.396 lot of fans who used you've heard a million times, 0:18:16.396 --> 0:18:18.716 just shut up and dribble. So it's not as if 0:18:18.756 --> 0:18:21.236 I think that our fans are pushing us there. And 0:18:21.276 --> 0:18:24.676 now the community that's a different piece. None of these 0:18:24.716 --> 0:18:27.356 men that I'm working with go out on the streets 0:18:27.476 --> 0:18:30.476 or write those checks, or do those those community forums 0:18:30.636 --> 0:18:33.676 build schools because they feel, well, I got to do 0:18:33.716 --> 0:18:36.956 it for my public. I absolutely believe this with every 0:18:36.956 --> 0:18:39.196 ouncew of my being. But they do it because they 0:18:39.276 --> 0:18:41.956 feel it so strongly. I'm in the middle of reading 0:18:42.196 --> 0:18:44.396 Mellow's book right now, and it's just the way. It's 0:18:44.396 --> 0:18:46.276 a great read. If yeah, I have it too, it's 0:18:46.316 --> 0:18:48.756 on myself. I'm excited to read it. It's a great read. 0:18:48.756 --> 0:18:51.236 It goes very quickly. And Mellow is one of the 0:18:51.316 --> 0:18:53.916 one of the players who before became popular, was in 0:18:53.996 --> 0:18:57.596 Baltimore in the streets marching with the community. That he 0:18:57.676 --> 0:18:59.236 was a player, but he was in the streets marching 0:18:59.356 --> 0:19:02.556 the community because he passionately felt that what was happening 0:19:02.556 --> 0:19:04.996 in that community was wrong. Well, that's the same thing 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:07.836 our players are doing now. I think they passionately feel 0:19:07.916 --> 0:19:12.516 these things the day friends, though, and I'm still marveling 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:17.196 at this is their appreciation that, oh, I feel this way. 0:19:17.356 --> 0:19:20.716 Maybe I can do something about it because I've got 0:19:20.836 --> 0:19:24.636 a platform, and it's a platform that Muhammad Ali didn't have. 0:19:24.676 --> 0:19:27.276 It's a platform that Kareem didn't have, that Bill Russell 0:19:27.276 --> 0:19:31.636 didn't have. Despite the passion of all those men. It's frankly, Noah, 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:34.916 it's social media. We just got a new rookie class 0:19:34.916 --> 0:19:36.196 come in and as I try to get to know 0:19:36.236 --> 0:19:38.076 who they are, and I check out their Twitter and 0:19:38.156 --> 0:19:42.116 all this Graham and they've got hundreds of thousands of 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:44.036 people that purport to want to hear what they have 0:19:44.156 --> 0:19:47.756 to say. On a good day, I might have five 0:19:47.796 --> 0:19:49.876 people that call me and ask me what's up, Michelle. 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:53.956 I can even imagine being able to have that audience 0:19:54.596 --> 0:19:58.516 and know that if I say black lives matter, whether 0:19:58.556 --> 0:20:01.996 you leave it or not, two millions of my followers 0:20:02.036 --> 0:20:04.116 are going to hear me say it, and some of 0:20:04.116 --> 0:20:06.476 them are gonna say, yeah, that's right. Something I say, 0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:08.316 what is he talking about it? And And maybe learn something 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:11.796 about these issues in the community. Involving the police misconduct. 0:20:12.676 --> 0:20:16.076 Bottom line is, these players completely appreciate the power of 0:20:16.076 --> 0:20:20.156 their platform. And when we went to the bubble, a 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:23.036 condition of going to the bubble was that we'd be 0:20:23.076 --> 0:20:26.636 permitted to talk about these issues. There would have been 0:20:26.676 --> 0:20:29.596 no season had the league made the stupid bone hit 0:20:29.636 --> 0:20:31.996 of the mistake of saying, no, you just play, We 0:20:32.036 --> 0:20:34.556 don't want to use any of your iMedia time or 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:37.116 any of the quarts to the uniform. None of that 0:20:37.116 --> 0:20:39.836 that had happened that have been those seasons. So they 0:20:39.836 --> 0:20:43.716 appreciate that they've got platforms. Michelle, I want to just 0:20:43.796 --> 0:20:47.196 ask one more question about the kind of responsibility power question, 0:20:47.276 --> 0:20:50.436 you know, the kind of with great power comes great responsibility, 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:54.716 And that had to do with how the Players Association negotiated, 0:20:55.116 --> 0:20:58.076 not the bubble part, which is itself totally fascinating and 0:20:58.116 --> 0:21:00.796 I think part of your incredible legacy, but also the 0:21:00.836 --> 0:21:04.036 post bubble, the vaccination period, where you guys sort of 0:21:04.036 --> 0:21:07.516 came out from the beginning and said mandatory vaccinations are 0:21:07.556 --> 0:21:10.996 a non starter. But going to voluntarily vaccinate up to 0:21:11.036 --> 0:21:13.036 a very very high percentage, I forget it somewhere between. 0:21:14.676 --> 0:21:17.796 How did you hit on that particular combination of factor, 0:21:17.836 --> 0:21:21.996 because it must have been very delicate internal thinking about, 0:21:22.956 --> 0:21:25.156 you know, what was the right thing to do for 0:21:25.356 --> 0:21:28.676 your players, for their health and safety, for those smaller 0:21:28.716 --> 0:21:30.876 number of players who might have not wanted to get vaccinated, 0:21:31.116 --> 0:21:33.836 and ultimately for the industry as a whole. You know, 0:21:34.116 --> 0:21:36.836 I frequently say, especially in the last few days or weeks, 0:21:36.876 --> 0:21:38.956 that it was a lot easier when there was no 0:21:39.156 --> 0:21:43.356 vaccine in many ways, because I could just concentrate on 0:21:43.476 --> 0:21:47.556 understanding what what we needed to do to keep the 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:50.076 players as safe as possible, to keep COVID out of 0:21:50.116 --> 0:21:52.796 the house, so to speak. You know, the vaccine was 0:21:52.836 --> 0:21:54.436 going to be something that frankly none of us thought 0:21:54.516 --> 0:21:56.716 was going to be available as quickly as it became 0:21:56.716 --> 0:21:58.356 a bill. Sure, or it would work as well as 0:21:58.356 --> 0:22:02.996 it works, right. So the bubble, as horrific ideas that sounded, 0:22:03.236 --> 0:22:05.476 was actually, in any ways an easy decision to make 0:22:05.516 --> 0:22:07.796 because it was a way to have the players play 0:22:08.156 --> 0:22:09.876 but protect them. I mean, there was no way we 0:22:09.876 --> 0:22:11.836 were going to be traveling all over the country and 0:22:12.036 --> 0:22:15.356 being on planes and buses all that, and we had 0:22:15.476 --> 0:22:18.436 zero Once once we got to the bubble and people tested, 0:22:18.996 --> 0:22:21.236 I was there. I was there with the guys. We 0:22:21.236 --> 0:22:24.196 didn't have any cases, and so it was a completely 0:22:24.236 --> 0:22:26.596 artificial environment, but I knew that they would be safe 0:22:27.076 --> 0:22:29.276 and it turned out well. We could be finished the season, 0:22:29.356 --> 0:22:32.556 nobody got infected, let alone sick. That was a success. 0:22:33.756 --> 0:22:38.196 Then the vaccine started to happen, and unfortunately, and again, 0:22:38.636 --> 0:22:41.396 you can't separate the politics that were going on in 0:22:41.436 --> 0:22:43.996 the country from the vaccine and this notion of whether 0:22:44.076 --> 0:22:46.476 we'll take it or not, and the messages that were 0:22:46.476 --> 0:22:50.236 coming from the White House were so mixed that on 0:22:50.276 --> 0:22:52.276 the one hand, AD's not a big deal, and the 0:22:52.316 --> 0:22:55.956