1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:23,756 --> 00:00:27,076 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,516 --> 00:00:31,596 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. As we've explored a wide range of 4 00:00:31,636 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 1: aspects of power this season on Deep Background, we have 5 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:37,876 Speaker 1: not yet had the opportunity to talk about one of 6 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:40,116 Speaker 1: the areas of power that I'm most interested at a 7 00:00:40,156 --> 00:00:43,196 Speaker 1: personal level, and that is the deployment of power in 8 00:00:43,356 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 1: professional sports. Today, we get the chance to take that 9 00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 1: question on directly. We're joined by Michelle Roberts, who is 10 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:57,116 Speaker 1: the executive director of the National Basketball Players Association, that is, 11 00:00:57,356 --> 00:01:00,636 Speaker 1: the NBA players Union. She's the first woman to hold 12 00:01:00,676 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: that job, and indeed the first woman to head a 13 00:01:03,556 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: major professional sports union in North America. Michelle came to 14 00:01:07,796 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: this job through a rather usual pathway. She began her 15 00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 1: career as a lawyer as a public defender in the 16 00:01:14,676 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 1: Public Defender Service for the District of Columbia, where she 17 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:21,836 Speaker 1: was mentored by the great Charles Ogletree, who himself went 18 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:24,876 Speaker 1: on to become a famous and influential professor of criminal 19 00:01:24,956 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 1: law at Harvard Law School. As a litigator, Michelle was 20 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: known as fearsome and powerful, and she moved ultimately from 21 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: the public Defender's office to working as a litigator at 22 00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 1: major Washington DC law firms, in which role she was 23 00:01:42,476 --> 00:01:46,516 Speaker 1: widely noted as one of the most experienced and successful 24 00:01:46,876 --> 00:01:52,676 Speaker 1: and frightening litigators anywhere in the United States. From there, 25 00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:56,516 Speaker 1: Michelle went straight to the NBA Players Association, and her 26 00:01:56,556 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 1: tenure has been marked by some remarkable historical transformations in 27 00:02:00,956 --> 00:02:04,116 Speaker 1: the role and identity of players, not to mention by 28 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:08,796 Speaker 1: the particularities of COVID, including the bubble experience and more 29 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:11,876 Speaker 1: recent the efforts of the league to come to terms 30 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 1: with vaccination. In short, Michelle is ideally placed to bring 31 00:02:16,396 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: us behind the scenes and explain to us a little 32 00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 1: bit about how power operates in professional sports in general 33 00:02:23,596 --> 00:02:27,036 Speaker 1: and in the NBA in particular. We're thrilled that she 34 00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:35,316 Speaker 1: was able to join us. Michelle, thank you so much 35 00:02:35,356 --> 00:02:39,036 Speaker 1: for being here. On deep background, our theme this year 36 00:02:39,116 --> 00:02:41,036 Speaker 1: is power, and what we try to do on the 37 00:02:41,036 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: show is bring listeners who are pretty good at following 38 00:02:44,796 --> 00:02:46,636 Speaker 1: the news and knowing what's going on on the surface 39 00:02:46,636 --> 00:02:50,156 Speaker 1: of things behind the scenes to try to understand how 40 00:02:50,276 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 1: power actually gets deployed in the times in places where 41 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 1: it does get deployed, and in some sense your job 42 00:02:56,076 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 1: is like the archetype of that, because everyone knows what 43 00:02:59,796 --> 00:03:02,836 Speaker 1: the NBA Players Association is on one level or another, 44 00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 1: and they know that as executive director, you're both speaking 45 00:03:06,036 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 1: on behalf of the players and also trying to get 46 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:11,476 Speaker 1: them all on the same page. And they all understand 47 00:03:11,516 --> 00:03:15,676 Speaker 1: that you're both collaborative with the league and also occasionally 48 00:03:15,916 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 1: oppositional to it, where your interests and their interests diverge. 49 00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 1: And I think that's basically all that anybody understands about 50 00:03:23,356 --> 00:03:26,436 Speaker 1: how their relationship actually works. So I wonder if you 51 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:29,636 Speaker 1: would just start for readers who know that much but 52 00:03:29,716 --> 00:03:33,956 Speaker 1: probably not much more, by describing how you think about 53 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:36,756 Speaker 1: the power of the players and their association and how 54 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 1: it operates in relation to the power of the owners 55 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 1: in the league. It's a bit of a dance because historically, 56 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: not just in basketball but across all sports, players were 57 00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:53,036 Speaker 1: never expected to be in any position to exercise power. 58 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:57,916 Speaker 1: The relationship between professional athletes and team owners has always 59 00:03:57,956 --> 00:04:01,636 Speaker 1: been one of aren't you lucky that I'm willing to 60 00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:05,516 Speaker 1: fund this team and pay you to play? And there 61 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 1: was this perception that the players were owned thing, but 62 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:14,756 Speaker 1: the opportunity, and beyond that, the ownership had the right 63 00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 1: to generate as much revenue as it could and dole 64 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:20,756 Speaker 1: out whatever money it thought was appropriate to the players. 65 00:04:21,236 --> 00:04:23,796 Speaker 1: That there was no sort of sense that we're in 66 00:04:23,876 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 1: this together. You can't do this without me from the 67 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:32,316 Speaker 1: player's perspective, and that has changed dramatically. Obviously, in my view, 68 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:36,916 Speaker 1: the advent of the union made a real difference. It 69 00:04:37,116 --> 00:04:40,916 Speaker 1: was not until they organized and demanded the very beginning 70 00:04:40,916 --> 00:04:44,116 Speaker 1: a pension planet's just just a pension plan, not the 71 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 1: compensation that we're talking about now. There was only when 72 00:04:47,316 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 1: they threatened not to perform, not to play, that they 73 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:53,996 Speaker 1: began to exercise for the first time. Power. Fast forward 74 00:04:54,076 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: sixteen seventy five years and you've got players who are 75 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 1: obviously have done well in terms of increasing their compensation, 76 00:05:03,676 --> 00:05:07,356 Speaker 1: but the work hasn't ended. There's much more to be done. Frankly, 77 00:05:07,396 --> 00:05:11,756 Speaker 1: even now there are occasionally when I gently have to 78 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: remind the league and the owners that you don't tell 79 00:05:14,756 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 1: us what to do. We negotiate how we're going to 80 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:21,596 Speaker 1: behave knock on wood. Things have been pretty good in 81 00:05:21,636 --> 00:05:24,796 Speaker 1: the past seven eight years. We've enjoyed labor piece, but 82 00:05:24,916 --> 00:05:28,916 Speaker 1: it's a constant push and pull because I think your 83 00:05:29,036 --> 00:05:33,036 Speaker 1: historical DNA if you're an owner, is well, why don't 84 00:05:33,036 --> 00:05:36,716 Speaker 1: I have to get permission from them I'm the owner. Well, 85 00:05:36,796 --> 00:05:40,436 Speaker 1: players don't see it that way any longer. So we manage. 86 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:44,876 Speaker 1: But sometimes it's a little bit more stressful than other times. 87 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:47,316 Speaker 1: We're in a good place. Now, I'm going to ask 88 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:50,076 Speaker 1: you about that word owner and it's complexity. In a 89 00:05:50,156 --> 00:05:52,676 Speaker 1: moment before I do you use the word that really 90 00:05:52,676 --> 00:05:55,756 Speaker 1: fascinated me, you said you gently remind them, And I 91 00:05:55,796 --> 00:05:58,076 Speaker 1: guess what I wanted to ask you is obviously, when 92 00:05:58,076 --> 00:06:01,556 Speaker 1: relations are good, you can be gentle. But it seems 93 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:05,796 Speaker 1: like the relationship between in this industry, at least between 94 00:06:05,836 --> 00:06:11,876 Speaker 1: management and labor is basically on something not very gentle 95 00:06:11,876 --> 00:06:16,436 Speaker 1: at all. Namely, you have one really really big leverage point, 96 00:06:16,516 --> 00:06:19,316 Speaker 1: which is that without your players, there would be no NBA. 97 00:06:19,876 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 1: But the only way you can really exercise that leverage 98 00:06:22,116 --> 00:06:25,276 Speaker 1: ultimately would be to walk, and that would cause everybody 99 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:29,156 Speaker 1: an enormous amount of money. Meanwhile, from the owner's perspective 100 00:06:29,236 --> 00:06:32,276 Speaker 1: or from the league's perspective, they really really don't want 101 00:06:32,276 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: that to happen, and they want to make exactly zero 102 00:06:34,516 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 1: concessions except for the ones that would lead to that happening. 103 00:06:39,036 --> 00:06:42,036 Speaker 1: So I guess what I'm wondering is, how do you 104 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 1: do gentle in a world where both sides understand that 105 00:06:46,316 --> 00:06:50,316 Speaker 1: the biggest, the only threat really is the enormous threat. 106 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:53,676 Speaker 1: How do you lower the temperature in that way? You 107 00:06:53,676 --> 00:06:58,036 Speaker 1: know it's it's by reminding, if necessary, that we're talking 108 00:06:58,116 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 1: the potential from mutual destruction. Right, this is a multi 109 00:07:02,396 --> 00:07:05,636 Speaker 1: billion dollar industry, and as wealthy as the owners are, 110 00:07:05,636 --> 00:07:08,396 Speaker 1: and frankly as wealthy as the players are, no one 111 00:07:08,476 --> 00:07:10,756 Speaker 1: wants to walk away from this huge part of gold. 112 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:14,836 Speaker 1: No one does. We are grown ups, they're adults. We 113 00:07:14,876 --> 00:07:18,676 Speaker 1: can scream and yell and threaten and eventually not get anywhere. 114 00:07:18,876 --> 00:07:21,996 Speaker 1: Or we can and again we'll gently agree we don't 115 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 1: want to go there. It's a no one's interests not 116 00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:28,636 Speaker 1: to mention our fans. For us to stop playing, they 117 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 1: will do damage to our business. But I'm happy to 118 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:35,316 Speaker 1: report is that most people are pretty smart and sufficiently 119 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:39,516 Speaker 1: self interesting that they won't go there. And so you know, 120 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: in our last CBA negotiation, we had some difficult negotiating sessions, 121 00:07:44,116 --> 00:07:46,636 Speaker 1: but as long as we kept in mind that it 122 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:49,396 Speaker 1: was in the best interest of everyone in that room 123 00:07:49,476 --> 00:07:53,276 Speaker 1: that we keep this business operating. We were able to 124 00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:55,196 Speaker 1: tone things down when they got a little bit too 125 00:07:55,316 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 1: volatile and figure out that we had to figure something out. 126 00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:00,956 Speaker 1: If people say it all the time, it's someone cliche 127 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 1: that the best negotiations are one where everybody goes away 128 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:06,836 Speaker 1: thinking that they wanted a little bit more, but at 129 00:08:06,876 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 1: the same time goes away believing I can live with 130 00:08:09,556 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 1: That's why you have to be When I was preparing 131 00:08:12,716 --> 00:08:14,956 Speaker 1: to talk to you, I went back and read the 132 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:18,276 Speaker 1: interviews that you gave early after you took over as 133 00:08:18,276 --> 00:08:21,476 Speaker 1: executive director in twenty fourteen, and then I read some 134 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 1: conversations and listened to some conversations that you had more recently, 135 00:08:25,036 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 1: and I noticed, at least I think I noticed what 136 00:08:28,356 --> 00:08:31,196 Speaker 1: I imagine might have been a subtle strategy. And since 137 00:08:31,396 --> 00:08:33,996 Speaker 1: your successor has recently been announced, maybe you're willing to 138 00:08:33,996 --> 00:08:36,836 Speaker 1: share a few tricks of the trade. Was it conscious 139 00:08:36,876 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 1: on your part to open by saying, I have a 140 00:08:41,556 --> 00:08:44,436 Speaker 1: lot of cards in my hand, and I'm going to 141 00:08:44,676 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 1: call things out when they need to be called out. 142 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:49,796 Speaker 1: Before I've engaged in any negotiation, I'm going to use 143 00:08:49,796 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 1: words like monopoly, because it is a monopoly. I'm going 144 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:55,276 Speaker 1: to say it's preposterous that they would blocks total salaries. 145 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 1: I'm going to say, good luck if the owners play 146 00:08:57,956 --> 00:08:59,796 Speaker 1: the games, which I thought was a very good line. 147 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: They used it, let's have the owners play out the games. 148 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:03,956 Speaker 1: And then I watched over the course of the next 149 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: six seven years as you came to be praised alongside 150 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:12,756 Speaker 1: the the league for having this incredibly positive relationship, especially 151 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:15,796 Speaker 1: compared to other professional sports leagues, and it's like your 152 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:19,836 Speaker 1: rhetoric just mellowed out a little bit because presumably you 153 00:09:19,876 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 1: were winning. So am I Am I getting any of 154 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:25,276 Speaker 1: that right? You know? I can't claim that there was 155 00:09:25,316 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 1: a grand strategy or design. I will say this, I 156 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:31,956 Speaker 1: knew that nobody knew what in the heck I was 157 00:09:31,996 --> 00:09:33,956 Speaker 1: going to do when I got when I got right, 158 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:38,756 Speaker 1: I had no prior history in sports, let alone in basketball, right, 159 00:09:38,756 --> 00:09:41,836 Speaker 1: So I, frankly, rather than view that as being a 160 00:09:41,876 --> 00:09:45,196 Speaker 1: bit of a negative or disadvantage, view that as a 161 00:09:45,236 --> 00:09:48,916 Speaker 1: positive because no one had a book on me. And 162 00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:51,036 Speaker 1: what I didn't want people to think was that I 163 00:09:51,116 --> 00:09:54,036 Speaker 1: was shy. Not I wish I'd been accused of that. 164 00:09:54,116 --> 00:09:56,996 Speaker 1: Once maybe in my life, but that having been me either, 165 00:09:57,116 --> 00:09:59,076 Speaker 1: so it's all right, And I didn't want to be dishonest, 166 00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:01,316 Speaker 1: and so I thought the questions that were being posed 167 00:10:01,316 --> 00:10:03,356 Speaker 1: to me were fair. You know, what do you think 168 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:06,716 Speaker 1: about the salary cap? I still think it's preposterous. I 169 00:10:06,716 --> 00:10:09,996 Speaker 1: think it's absolutely outrageous that only in professional sports and 170 00:10:10,156 --> 00:10:15,356 Speaker 1: basketball and football do you have a talented person not 171 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:18,516 Speaker 1: being able to get as much money as he or 172 00:10:18,596 --> 00:10:21,436 Speaker 1: she can be paid. Right, it's insane that it's not illegal. 173 00:10:21,476 --> 00:10:23,676 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that it's not illegal. Not illegal 174 00:10:23,716 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 1: because it's been collectively bargained. That's the point. You can 175 00:10:26,756 --> 00:10:30,196 Speaker 1: get all this stuff as long as it's been collectively bargained, 176 00:10:30,396 --> 00:10:32,396 Speaker 1: and that's the point. So I was just telling the truth. 177 00:10:32,516 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 1: I was answering questions. Honestly, I think it was making 178 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: the owners then the league nervous, and frankly they should 179 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:41,916 Speaker 1: have been. And I didn't do it to scare anyone. 180 00:10:42,036 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 1: I just wanted everyone to understand that this is my 181 00:10:44,356 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 1: view of how this business is structured. But I'm not 182 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: an idiot. I understand collective bargaining, and all the things 183 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:56,516 Speaker 1: I purported to be preposterous were collectively bargained. Am I 184 00:10:56,596 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 1: being dismissive of the efforts that went into those negotiations? No, 185 00:10:59,516 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 1: because I wasn't there, and that was a time when 186 00:11:02,316 --> 00:11:06,236 Speaker 1: leverage was not were leverages today for players. But I 187 00:11:06,276 --> 00:11:10,356 Speaker 1: still think that having a cap system is Frankly, if 188 00:11:10,356 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: I had my way, there would be no cat, there 189 00:11:11,956 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 1: would be no salary. So but you know, like I said, 190 00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:17,476 Speaker 1: I'm not God, and I don't think I'm going to 191 00:11:17,556 --> 00:11:19,876 Speaker 1: be God tomorrow, so I understand that these things have 192 00:11:19,956 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 1: to be negotiated. You had an unusual background, as you 193 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:25,916 Speaker 1: were just alluding to. You came to this job, which 194 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:29,556 Speaker 1: is a job about negotiation, from a background in litigation, 195 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:33,636 Speaker 1: where you had started as a federal public defender in Washington, 196 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: DC and worked with a great Charles Ogletree and my wonderful, 197 00:11:37,316 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: wonderful colleague, and you know, one of the more inspiring 198 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:42,196 Speaker 1: people I've ever had a chance to work alongside. And 199 00:11:42,236 --> 00:11:46,836 Speaker 1: then you became a private side litigator, and you know, 200 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:49,436 Speaker 1: everyone feared you, because that's how you succeed as a 201 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:51,436 Speaker 1: good litigator. Right If you're not feared, you're not a 202 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:54,916 Speaker 1: successful litigator. And it worked, were you in some sense 203 00:11:55,036 --> 00:11:57,236 Speaker 1: able to play on that. You know, people thought, oh 204 00:11:57,276 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: my goodness, you know, if she goes to war, we 205 00:11:59,876 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: really do not want to be on the other side 206 00:12:02,516 --> 00:12:05,116 Speaker 1: of that. And then sure enough you didn't have to 207 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:07,396 Speaker 1: go to war. Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons 208 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:10,276 Speaker 1: that I like being a lawyer was not because I 209 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: liked having a law degree. I like litigation, and I 210 00:12:13,436 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 1: even make a distinction between litigation and trial work. And 211 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:18,156 Speaker 1: one of the things I used to drive me really crazy, 212 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 1: just especially in my old life, just before I got 213 00:12:20,716 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 1: this job, is that I had these cases I was 214 00:12:22,636 --> 00:12:27,676 Speaker 1: litigating was so big, and frankly you won by settling, right, 215 00:12:27,716 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: And but I'd get hired on these big cases and 216 00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:32,516 Speaker 1: I'd say, look, you all have a settlement negotiation team. 217 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:35,916 Speaker 1: That's not me. I want to fight, all right, So 218 00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:37,996 Speaker 1: you let me know if you don't. If you settled it, 219 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: I don't want to be distracted, and I don't want 220 00:12:39,396 --> 00:12:41,116 Speaker 1: my team to be distracted. We've got to be ready 221 00:12:41,116 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 1: for war. But when they settled, I'd be a little disappointed. 222 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: Becaust I had a great opening statement I was about 223 00:12:46,836 --> 00:12:48,956 Speaker 1: to deliver, but I knew it wasn't the best interest 224 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:51,076 Speaker 1: of the client. That the client and decided to settle 225 00:12:52,036 --> 00:12:55,716 Speaker 1: and CBA negotiations here. You know, I'm not, like I said, 226 00:12:55,796 --> 00:12:59,116 Speaker 1: I am completely appreciative of the fact that that's why 227 00:12:59,156 --> 00:13:02,596 Speaker 1: they call it collective bargaining, because you're bargaining. At the 228 00:13:02,636 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 1: same time, there are some people who have had this role, 229 00:13:05,796 --> 00:13:08,956 Speaker 1: or who have had this role in other sports that 230 00:13:09,316 --> 00:13:12,516 Speaker 1: just risk averse that are known to the league and 231 00:13:12,596 --> 00:13:16,676 Speaker 1: teams and not wanting to fight. I don't want to fight. 232 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:20,636 Speaker 1: I don't mind a good fight that I will. There 233 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:23,036 Speaker 1: were times when we had to say, now, this is 234 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:25,156 Speaker 1: something we'll go to war on because this is just 235 00:13:25,516 --> 00:13:28,916 Speaker 1: fundamentally unfair what you're trying to do. It's all about 236 00:13:29,636 --> 00:13:32,316 Speaker 1: knowing what your leverage is, knowing what your players will 237 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:36,636 Speaker 1: not stand for, and then making the argument on their behalf. 238 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:40,516 Speaker 1: That's what lawyers do. I want to zoom back out 239 00:13:40,596 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 1: to the deeper dynamics of power between the players and 240 00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:47,796 Speaker 1: the owners, and I just want to double click on 241 00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 1: that word owner. Technically, the owner owns a franchise and 242 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 1: then is the employer of players. The word, though, has 243 00:13:57,676 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 1: a kind of cultural capital, and you were suggesting earlier 244 00:14:02,476 --> 00:14:04,756 Speaker 1: that that word somehow actually does say something about at 245 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:10,476 Speaker 1: least a mindset of management. Do you think it's actively 246 00:14:10,596 --> 00:14:15,196 Speaker 1: different in professional sports as a consequence than it is 247 00:14:15,556 --> 00:14:19,436 Speaker 1: in other professions that, let's say, are connected to entertainment, 248 00:14:19,676 --> 00:14:23,196 Speaker 1: you know, the film business, where you have high paid 249 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:29,916 Speaker 1: talent and then you have studios and so forth. To 250 00:14:30,156 --> 00:14:33,156 Speaker 1: the league's credit, they have tried to substitute the word 251 00:14:33,196 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 1: governor for the word owner, and it's made some of 252 00:14:39,436 --> 00:14:42,316 Speaker 1: my players pleased because they are offended by the word 253 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:44,556 Speaker 1: owner on some levels. I am too. I think I'm 254 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 1: just the world that I'm used to hearing it, so 255 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,876 Speaker 1: I remember I use governor as well. But the addition 256 00:14:50,916 --> 00:14:53,836 Speaker 1: of the fact that most of the players in the 257 00:14:53,916 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 1: NBA are African American and most of the governors are white, 258 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:07,676 Speaker 1: it's especially disturbing. A case in point, Donald Sterling, who 259 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:11,276 Speaker 1: used to own the and again own the LA Clippers 260 00:15:12,036 --> 00:15:15,076 Speaker 1: Stories and Merge that he would literally go into the 261 00:15:15,116 --> 00:15:18,476 Speaker 1: locker rooms of the LA Clipper players, and Chris Paul 262 00:15:18,556 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 1: tells this one of the films he did about this. 263 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:25,276 Speaker 1: Sterling would go in and he'd be rubbing the players, 264 00:15:25,476 --> 00:15:29,676 Speaker 1: and Chris reports that he felt like he was being petted, right, 265 00:15:29,716 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 1: and then the governors of the teams that we have 266 00:15:31,956 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 1: now are frankly much younger, much more entrepreneurial, and have 267 00:15:36,796 --> 00:15:38,996 Speaker 1: I think a better met mindset than some of the 268 00:15:39,396 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 1: governors some of the owners of these teams back in 269 00:15:41,556 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 1: the day. So there's a little less concern about the title, 270 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:51,716 Speaker 1: though we appreciate the change. On occasion, though the league 271 00:15:51,716 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 1: will communicate repeat to us comments made by some of 272 00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: the team governors that suggest that the mentality is not 273 00:15:58,476 --> 00:16:03,556 Speaker 1: quite gone. I'd prefer to and the league reports too 274 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 1: as well us as partners, and that that's a much 275 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 1: more palatable word than owner, and I don't want to 276 00:16:10,956 --> 00:16:13,996 Speaker 1: play games. You own the team, you own the franchise, whatever, 277 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:17,076 Speaker 1: but you be very careful when you begin to use 278 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:21,396 Speaker 1: that concept and can refer to the employees. We'll be 279 00:16:21,476 --> 00:16:34,156 Speaker 1: right back. One of the most significant historical changes over 280 00:16:34,236 --> 00:16:38,156 Speaker 1: your time in your job has been the rise of 281 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:43,836 Speaker 1: NBA players, especially African American players, as major voices on 282 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:48,196 Speaker 1: crucial national questions of importance, most significantly on race, an 283 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: association with Black Lives Matter, but not only on racially 284 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 1: related issues. Of course, we have that legacy in the 285 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 1: United States going back to nineteen sixties in the form 286 00:16:56,276 --> 00:16:58,436 Speaker 1: of Muhammad Ali, but you know, he was in a 287 00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:01,356 Speaker 1: different kind of a sport with its own very complicated dynamics, 288 00:17:01,716 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 1: and there wasn't a league that he was actively a 289 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 1: part of. And of course there have been individually individual 290 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:10,996 Speaker 1: NBA players Premu Bards another great example, who had strong 291 00:17:11,076 --> 00:17:13,996 Speaker 1: identities and took strong stands, not an accident. In both 292 00:17:13,996 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 1: of those cases, the Nation of Islam were part of 293 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:18,516 Speaker 1: the way that they made statements. But there's really been 294 00:17:18,556 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 1: a main streaming of the expectation that NBA players are 295 00:17:24,316 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 1: de facto leaders of public consciousness, both for white and 296 00:17:29,796 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 1: for black people. And I'm wondering as you watch that happen, 297 00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 1: how much of it do you think was driven by 298 00:17:36,716 --> 00:17:39,756 Speaker 1: the aspirations of the players, how much of it by 299 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:43,076 Speaker 1: the expectations of the public, how much by the fact 300 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 1: that it's also a period of time historically where NBA 301 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:48,916 Speaker 1: players came to be extremely well paid, so that now 302 00:17:49,396 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 1: black NBA players were among the best paid prominent African 303 00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:57,076 Speaker 1: Americans in the country, and which confers a certain obligation 304 00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 1: of leadership. Arguably, Yeah, I think a little bit of 305 00:18:01,716 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 1: all that may be there, but I think the principal 306 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 1: component is the players themselves, right, I mean, there are 307 00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:10,956 Speaker 1: any fans who are pushing them into the streets and 308 00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:13,836 Speaker 1: into protests. In back. Quite the contrary, we get a 309 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:16,396 Speaker 1: lot of fans who used you've heard a million times, 310 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:18,716 Speaker 1: just shut up and dribble. So it's not as if 311 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:21,236 Speaker 1: I think that our fans are pushing us there. And 312 00:18:21,276 --> 00:18:24,676 Speaker 1: now the community that's a different piece. None of these 313 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:27,356 Speaker 1: men that I'm working with go out on the streets 314 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 1: or write those checks, or do those those community forums 315 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:33,676 Speaker 1: build schools because they feel, well, I got to do 316 00:18:33,716 --> 00:18:36,956 Speaker 1: it for my public. I absolutely believe this with every 317 00:18:36,956 --> 00:18:39,196 Speaker 1: ouncew of my being. But they do it because they 318 00:18:39,276 --> 00:18:41,956 Speaker 1: feel it so strongly. I'm in the middle of reading 319 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:44,396 Speaker 1: Mellow's book right now, and it's just the way. It's 320 00:18:44,396 --> 00:18:46,276 Speaker 1: a great read. If yeah, I have it too, it's 321 00:18:46,316 --> 00:18:48,756 Speaker 1: on myself. I'm excited to read it. It's a great read. 322 00:18:48,756 --> 00:18:51,236 Speaker 1: It goes very quickly. And Mellow is one of the 323 00:18:51,316 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 1: one of the players who before became popular, was in 324 00:18:53,996 --> 00:18:57,596 Speaker 1: Baltimore in the streets marching with the community. That he 325 00:18:57,676 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 1: was a player, but he was in the streets marching 326 00:18:59,356 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 1: the community because he passionately felt that what was happening 327 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:04,996 Speaker 1: in that community was wrong. Well, that's the same thing 328 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: our players are doing now. I think they passionately feel 329 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 1: these things the day friends, though, and I'm still marveling 330 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: at this is their appreciation that, oh, I feel this way. 331 00:19:17,356 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 1: Maybe I can do something about it because I've got 332 00:19:20,836 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: a platform, and it's a platform that Muhammad Ali didn't have. 333 00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 1: It's a platform that Kareem didn't have, that Bill Russell 334 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:31,636 Speaker 1: didn't have. Despite the passion of all those men. It's frankly, Noah, 335 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:34,916 Speaker 1: it's social media. We just got a new rookie class 336 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 1: come in and as I try to get to know 337 00:19:36,236 --> 00:19:38,076 Speaker 1: who they are, and I check out their Twitter and 338 00:19:38,156 --> 00:19:42,116 Speaker 1: all this Graham and they've got hundreds of thousands of 339 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:44,036 Speaker 1: people that purport to want to hear what they have 340 00:19:44,156 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 1: to say. On a good day, I might have five 341 00:19:47,796 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 1: people that call me and ask me what's up, Michelle. 342 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: I can even imagine being able to have that audience 343 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 1: and know that if I say black lives matter, whether 344 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 1: you leave it or not, two millions of my followers 345 00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 1: are going to hear me say it, and some of 346 00:20:04,116 --> 00:20:06,476 Speaker 1: them are gonna say, yeah, that's right. Something I say, 347 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 1: what is he talking about it? And And maybe learn something 348 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:11,796 Speaker 1: about these issues in the community. Involving the police misconduct. 349 00:20:12,676 --> 00:20:16,076 Speaker 1: Bottom line is, these players completely appreciate the power of 350 00:20:16,076 --> 00:20:20,156 Speaker 1: their platform. And when we went to the bubble, a 351 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:23,036 Speaker 1: condition of going to the bubble was that we'd be 352 00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: permitted to talk about these issues. There would have been 353 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 1: no season had the league made the stupid bone hit 354 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:31,996 Speaker 1: of the mistake of saying, no, you just play, We 355 00:20:32,036 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 1: don't want to use any of your iMedia time or 356 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 1: any of the quarts to the uniform. None of that 357 00:20:37,116 --> 00:20:39,836 Speaker 1: that had happened that have been those seasons. So they 358 00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: appreciate that they've got platforms. Michelle, I want to just 359 00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:47,196 Speaker 1: ask one more question about the kind of responsibility power question, 360 00:20:47,276 --> 00:20:50,436 Speaker 1: you know, the kind of with great power comes great responsibility, 361 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:54,716 Speaker 1: And that had to do with how the Players Association negotiated, 362 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:58,076 Speaker 1: not the bubble part, which is itself totally fascinating and 363 00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:00,796 Speaker 1: I think part of your incredible legacy, but also the 364 00:21:00,836 --> 00:21:04,036 Speaker 1: post bubble, the vaccination period, where you guys sort of 365 00:21:04,036 --> 00:21:07,516 Speaker 1: came out from the beginning and said mandatory vaccinations are 366 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:10,996 Speaker 1: a non starter. But going to voluntarily vaccinate up to 367 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:13,036 Speaker 1: a very very high percentage, I forget it somewhere between. 368 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 1: How did you hit on that particular combination of factor, 369 00:21:17,836 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 1: because it must have been very delicate internal thinking about, 370 00:21:22,956 --> 00:21:25,156 Speaker 1: you know, what was the right thing to do for 371 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:28,676 Speaker 1: your players, for their health and safety, for those smaller 372 00:21:28,716 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 1: number of players who might have not wanted to get vaccinated, 373 00:21:31,116 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 1: and ultimately for the industry as a whole. You know, 374 00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:36,836 Speaker 1: I frequently say, especially in the last few days or weeks, 375 00:21:36,876 --> 00:21:38,956 Speaker 1: that it was a lot easier when there was no 376 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:43,356 Speaker 1: vaccine in many ways, because I could just concentrate on 377 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 1: understanding what what we needed to do to keep the 378 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,076 Speaker 1: players as safe as possible, to keep COVID out of 379 00:21:50,116 --> 00:21:52,796 Speaker 1: the house, so to speak. You know, the vaccine was 380 00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:54,436 Speaker 1: going to be something that frankly none of us thought 381 00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:56,716 Speaker 1: was going to be available as quickly as it became 382 00:21:56,716 --> 00:21:58,356 Speaker 1: a bill. Sure, or it would work as well as 383 00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:02,996 Speaker 1: it works, right. So the bubble, as horrific ideas that sounded, 384 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:05,476 Speaker 1: was actually, in any ways an easy decision to make 385 00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: because it was a way to have the players play 386 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:09,876 Speaker 1: but protect them. I mean, there was no way we 387 00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:11,836 Speaker 1: were going to be traveling all over the country and 388 00:22:12,036 --> 00:22:15,356 Speaker 1: being on planes and buses all that, and we had 389 00:22:15,476 --> 00:22:18,436 Speaker 1: zero Once once we got to the bubble and people tested, 390 00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:21,236 Speaker 1: I was there. I was there with the guys. We 391 00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:24,196 Speaker 1: didn't have any cases, and so it was a completely 392 00:22:24,236 --> 00:22:26,596 Speaker 1: artificial environment, but I knew that they would be safe 393 00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:29,276 Speaker 1: and it turned out well. We could be finished the season, 394 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:32,556 Speaker 1: nobody got infected, let alone sick. That was a success. 395 00:22:33,756 --> 00:22:38,196 Speaker 1: Then the vaccine started to happen, and unfortunately, and again, 396 00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:41,396 Speaker 1: you can't separate the politics that were going on in 397 00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:43,996 Speaker 1: the country from the vaccine and this notion of whether 398 00:22:44,076 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 1: we'll take it or not, and the messages that were 399 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:50,236 Speaker 1: coming from the White House were so mixed that on 400 00:22:50,276 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 1: the one hand, AD's not a big deal, and the 401 00:22:52,316 --> 00:22:55,956 Speaker 1: other hand, I got this just super special vaccine. Is 402 00:22:55,956 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 1: he really saying that? Because it's true all the scientists 403 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:02,356 Speaker 1: political There was so many questions that were not merely 404 00:23:02,396 --> 00:23:07,636 Speaker 1: being asked in the country at large, but among our players, Michelle, 405 00:23:07,716 --> 00:23:11,356 Speaker 1: is this typical for a vaccine to be ready this quickly? 406 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:14,956 Speaker 1: I've flunk seventh great biologies. I'm the last person to 407 00:23:14,996 --> 00:23:17,916 Speaker 1: ask because we ended up getting our own experts. Everybody 408 00:23:17,996 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: was sort of learning as it went. And to be 409 00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:25,276 Speaker 1: candidate with you know, you would ask me months into 410 00:23:25,396 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 1: the vaccine's production, I'd have said, I will be lucky 411 00:23:28,436 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 1: if we get fifty percent of our players to take it. 412 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:34,436 Speaker 1: And you know, and I'll admit to this as well, 413 00:23:34,876 --> 00:23:37,236 Speaker 1: I was suspicious. I mean I used to. In my 414 00:23:37,236 --> 00:23:40,556 Speaker 1: whole life, I've represented pharmaceutical companies that were being sued 415 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 1: in class action matters because of allegations that their drugs 416 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:47,876 Speaker 1: were not safe. How did I defend those lawsuits by 417 00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 1: pointing out the years and years of study and writings 418 00:23:52,276 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 1: about the efficacy and the safety of these drugs that 419 00:23:55,076 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 1: we're going for. That was our defense. It was very effective. 420 00:23:57,996 --> 00:23:59,556 Speaker 1: People said, you know, one, I know, I think that 421 00:23:59,596 --> 00:24:02,196 Speaker 1: they didn't. They didn't just throw something out there. They 422 00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: study this at first in animals got to give them, 423 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 1: then in humans, and then none of that had happened 424 00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 1: with this vaccine, and so I was hard pressed to 425 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:15,316 Speaker 1: even personally believe that this was safe. At my age, 426 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 1: I determined I don't have any choice because of people 427 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:20,636 Speaker 1: that were dying were in my cohort. And so to me, 428 00:24:20,756 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: the decision was, oh, I know what COVID's gonna do 429 00:24:22,756 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: to me, I'll take my chances, exactly. But I thoroughly 430 00:24:27,956 --> 00:24:31,196 Speaker 1: understood and I still understand, that people have to get there, 431 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 1: and people are making to find my players, But they're 432 00:24:33,716 --> 00:24:37,556 Speaker 1: right those are saying it. Do the research, satisfy yourself 433 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:39,956 Speaker 1: that this is something that is in the best interests 434 00:24:39,996 --> 00:24:43,196 Speaker 1: of yourself. And now what I would I have had 435 00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 1: a mandatory vaccination, Michelle, You damn right I would. I 436 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:51,316 Speaker 1: would have. And I told the players, I strongly believe 437 00:24:51,396 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 1: that we should, every one of you should have a vaccination. 438 00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:57,836 Speaker 1: But I also understand that I got here how I 439 00:24:57,876 --> 00:25:00,756 Speaker 1: got here, and you get you need to get there 440 00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 1: as well. And I believe that they would, And so 441 00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 1: we voted at the time we voted, we voted a 442 00:25:05,556 --> 00:25:07,236 Speaker 1: couple of times on this. By the way the players 443 00:25:07,356 --> 00:25:10,316 Speaker 1: voted on this. The first time it was a non starter. 444 00:25:10,836 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: There will be no mandatory vaccinations. And I can remember 445 00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:16,316 Speaker 1: players who I know are vaccinated right now who said, 446 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: I don't care if the Good Lord himself tells me 447 00:25:18,956 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 1: to roll up my sleeves, I'm never taking that. So 448 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:23,396 Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be a process. And 449 00:25:23,716 --> 00:25:28,436 Speaker 1: both times we voted that the players understood that there 450 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:31,116 Speaker 1: was a risk that was being taken, but not only individually, 451 00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:33,956 Speaker 1: but for themselves and their families and their players families. 452 00:25:34,316 --> 00:25:37,436 Speaker 1: Now we're at ninety six percent. I think we're going 453 00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:39,716 Speaker 1: to get even better than that. What I have a 454 00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:43,436 Speaker 1: mandatory vaccine, I would, but it's not my call. And 455 00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 1: the only thing I felt responsible for doing was making 456 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:49,636 Speaker 1: sure that they had as much information as they needed. 457 00:25:50,196 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 1: In fact, I'm still working on some things which I 458 00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 1: think might be helpful for those guys that was still 459 00:25:54,476 --> 00:25:57,076 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I'm still worried. My wife says, no, 460 00:25:57,836 --> 00:26:01,396 Speaker 1: these are unprecedented times and all of us have had 461 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 1: to figure out how we want to manage this. It's 462 00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:06,036 Speaker 1: kind of thought saying what you're saying, because I mean 463 00:26:06,116 --> 00:26:07,596 Speaker 1: it sort of fits one of the themes that we've 464 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,596 Speaker 1: been talking about. The way that you guys in the 465 00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 1: Players Association were successful was not by laying down a law, 466 00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 1: but by a process of convincing people slowly and for 467 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:21,436 Speaker 1: them doing the research and convincing themselves. In other words, 468 00:26:21,716 --> 00:26:25,236 Speaker 1: it turned out to be not that aspect of the 469 00:26:25,276 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 1: way we think as lawyers, that's, you know, there's a 470 00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 1: right and a wrong, there's justice and there's injustice, and 471 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:32,996 Speaker 1: they're going to fight it out, but rather about collaborative 472 00:26:33,236 --> 00:26:37,716 Speaker 1: conversation in a more open ended environment. And that actually 473 00:26:37,836 --> 00:26:40,396 Speaker 1: leads me to my last question, which is as you 474 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:44,796 Speaker 1: transition to whatever you're planning to do next. Do you 475 00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,196 Speaker 1: think that the old Michelle, you know, the warrior who 476 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:51,756 Speaker 1: loves to be in the courtroom, will predominate or will 477 00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:58,276 Speaker 1: the Michelle who's enjoyed building tremendously successful collaborative relationships even 478 00:26:58,316 --> 00:27:02,156 Speaker 1: across different sets of interests be the one who predominates. 479 00:27:02,156 --> 00:27:04,156 Speaker 1: Do you think not to imply they're not the same person, 480 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 1: but they seem like two aspects of the same fascinating life. 481 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:12,956 Speaker 1: I shell that's going to be our hope in control 482 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:15,876 Speaker 1: within the first year of my retirement, because that's what 483 00:27:15,916 --> 00:27:18,676 Speaker 1: I'm doing. I'm not I'm not taking another job. I 484 00:27:18,676 --> 00:27:22,036 Speaker 1: hope that she actually dust sought that list and she's 485 00:27:22,036 --> 00:27:24,396 Speaker 1: been keeping for the last forty years and being able 486 00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:26,436 Speaker 1: to check some things off. There are some things that 487 00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:28,076 Speaker 1: I want to do that I'd like to do before 488 00:27:28,076 --> 00:27:30,676 Speaker 1: I meet my maker. Having said that they're to share 489 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: one or two of those. I gotta tell you, I've 490 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 1: been blessed with incredible travel professionally. I mean, I've been 491 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 1: on some of the greatest cities on planet, in the 492 00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:44,676 Speaker 1: country and around the world, and I've never with the 493 00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:48,716 Speaker 1: exception of Barcelona, and I just stole four days and said, 494 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:52,596 Speaker 1: I don't care, I'm going to Barcelona. I've never had 495 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:55,076 Speaker 1: a chance to enjoy those cities beyond you know, maybe 496 00:27:55,076 --> 00:27:59,276 Speaker 1: taking the walk and the first place. I want to 497 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:01,716 Speaker 1: go to Senegal. I fell in love with that country. 498 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:03,116 Speaker 1: I want to go to Senea. I want to go 499 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:05,596 Speaker 1: back to Brazil. I mean I want to go. I 500 00:28:05,756 --> 00:28:07,516 Speaker 1: love South Africa, I've been there a couple of times. 501 00:28:07,756 --> 00:28:11,076 Speaker 1: I want to do Nigeria. I love love, love, love, 502 00:28:11,156 --> 00:28:13,356 Speaker 1: love room. So I want to do some traveling just 503 00:28:13,396 --> 00:28:15,836 Speaker 1: to just to get fat, but then I also want 504 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 1: to pursue some things to keep my brain a little bit. 505 00:28:21,316 --> 00:28:23,196 Speaker 1: I want to return to my biggest passion, but just 506 00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:26,076 Speaker 1: criminal justice. I have recently joined a board of a 507 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:28,596 Speaker 1: nonprofit that I think is doing great work in this space, 508 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,556 Speaker 1: and I'm really excited about the work. I think I'll 509 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:33,596 Speaker 1: be able to be here and then you'll see me 510 00:28:33,596 --> 00:28:36,796 Speaker 1: in a couple of next games. Well, those all sound 511 00:28:36,836 --> 00:28:39,036 Speaker 1: like they're pretty amazing things. Something for you, something for 512 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:41,876 Speaker 1: the rest of the world, something for fun. Yeah. I 513 00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:44,396 Speaker 1: really want to thank you for sharing your insights and 514 00:28:44,436 --> 00:28:47,156 Speaker 1: your experiences, and also just for your fascinating work, which 515 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 1: I think has contributed to justice in a lot of 516 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:52,556 Speaker 1: really interesting ways, from different angles and in different perspectives. 517 00:28:53,156 --> 00:28:55,916 Speaker 1: So thank you, Michelle, No, thank you, No, I appreciate it. 518 00:28:57,076 --> 00:29:09,516 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Listening to Michelle, I was please 519 00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:15,276 Speaker 1: struck by her directness in explaining how she deploys power 520 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:18,436 Speaker 1: in her position and how the players in the NBA 521 00:29:18,756 --> 00:29:22,876 Speaker 1: have overtime been able to gain greater power visavi, the 522 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:27,756 Speaker 1: league and the governors as team owners are now increasingly known. 523 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 1: In essence, as Michelle made crystal clear, the power of 524 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:35,356 Speaker 1: the players derives from their ability to walk off the job, 525 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: the most fundamental power of any group of employees represented 526 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:44,876 Speaker 1: by a union. Given that circumstance, she has been able 527 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:48,276 Speaker 1: to craft the interests of the players into a far 528 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:53,996 Speaker 1: more collegial relationship with management than exists in other professional 529 00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:57,396 Speaker 1: sports leagues or than existed at previous times in the 530 00:29:57,436 --> 00:30:03,276 Speaker 1: history of the NBA. From strength, she generated collaboration and collegiality, 531 00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:06,956 Speaker 1: always remembering that being willing to go to the mats 532 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:11,516 Speaker 1: and fight as needed is conferral of power. At the 533 00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:14,596 Speaker 1: same time, Michelle also made it very clear that she 534 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:18,676 Speaker 1: learned to be collegial and she's benefited from that collegiality 535 00:30:18,996 --> 00:30:24,236 Speaker 1: by bringing people to recognize im mutuality of interest. All 536 00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 1: of this has given her an inside perspective to watch 537 00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:30,716 Speaker 1: the transformation of the power of NBA players through their 538 00:30:30,876 --> 00:30:35,156 Speaker 1: leadership on major issues of national social importance, particularly Black 539 00:30:35,196 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 1: Lives Matter, and also by their ability to wield social 540 00:30:39,356 --> 00:30:42,516 Speaker 1: media presence as an important new tool that was not 541 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:48,236 Speaker 1: available to earlier generations of professional athletes. Ultimately, I would 542 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:51,316 Speaker 1: say that Michelle's tenure is a kind of object lesson 543 00:30:51,636 --> 00:30:56,196 Speaker 1: in how it looks when things actually work between labor 544 00:30:56,236 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 1: and management. And it's also an object lesson in how 545 00:30:59,636 --> 00:31:03,556 Speaker 1: power subtly and gradually can be transformed at the hands 546 00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:09,676 Speaker 1: of sophisticated actors who think things through, strategize and get results. 547 00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:14,516 Speaker 1: You can't avoid the possibility of conflict, but sometimes, if 548 00:31:14,516 --> 00:31:16,996 Speaker 1: you're as good as Michelle is, you can deploy the 549 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:22,756 Speaker 1: threat of conflict to achieve its exact opposite, namely collegiality 550 00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,476 Speaker 1: and collaboration. There's a lesson there, I think for all 551 00:31:26,516 --> 00:31:28,956 Speaker 1: of us, no matter what we do for a living, 552 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:32,836 Speaker 1: and even if like me, we're never going to play 553 00:31:32,916 --> 00:31:36,036 Speaker 1: in the NBA until the next time I speak to 554 00:31:36,076 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 1: you breathe deep, think deep thoughts, play some ball, and 555 00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:45,916 Speaker 1: have a little fun. If you're a regular listener, you 556 00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:49,036 Speaker 1: know I love communicating with you here on Deep Background. 557 00:31:49,676 --> 00:31:52,636 Speaker 1: I also really want that communication to run both ways. 558 00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:54,876 Speaker 1: I want to know what you think are the most 559 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:58,116 Speaker 1: important stories of the moment and what kinds of guests 560 00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:01,116 Speaker 1: you think you would be useful to hear from. More So, 561 00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 1: I'm opening a new channel of communication. To access it, 562 00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:08,276 Speaker 1: just go to my website Noa Dashfelman dot com. You 563 00:32:08,276 --> 00:32:11,156 Speaker 1: can sign up from my newsletter and you can tell 564 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:14,436 Speaker 1: me exactly what's on your mind, something that would be 565 00:32:14,516 --> 00:32:17,996 Speaker 1: really valuable to me and I hope to you too. 566 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:22,636 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 567 00:32:22,676 --> 00:32:26,276 Speaker 1: producer is mo La Board, our engineer is Benaliday, and 568 00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:31,236 Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 569 00:32:31,756 --> 00:32:35,916 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Gera at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, 570 00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:41,396 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori, Maggie Taylor, 571 00:32:41,556 --> 00:32:44,676 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 572 00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:47,716 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah r Feldman. I also write a column 573 00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:50,516 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at bloomberg dot 574 00:32:50,516 --> 00:32:55,356 Speaker 1: com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, 575 00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 1: go to bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you 576 00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:02,116 Speaker 1: liked what you heard today, please write a review or 577 00:33:02,156 --> 00:33:05,036 Speaker 1: tell a friend. This is deep background