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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, the production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast Happy Friday. I'm Chasey Vie Wilson Fry our episodes.

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Speaker 1: This week we're about Lord Elgin and the Parthenon Marbles

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Speaker 1: and the ongoing controversy about them and calls to return

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Speaker 1: them to Greece. I had an opinion about this before

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Speaker 1: I started working on it, just from the knowledge that

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Speaker 1: Britain has had these in the British Museum for two

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Speaker 1: ish years um and Greece has been like, can we

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Speaker 1: have those back for about that same amount of time,

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Speaker 1: And my basic opinion was maybe I'll should give that back. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And now, after having done all this research and having

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Speaker 1: like read all of this uncertainty about the firm in

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Speaker 1: and the fact that um Elgan's whole point was like

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Speaker 1: to put them in a shed on his personal property

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Speaker 1: and they got shipwrecked and damaged through over cleaning along

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Speaker 1: the way, I I have the same opinion as before,

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Speaker 1: but like ten times as vehement as I did before

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Speaker 1: I got into it. Right, do you consider any speculation

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Speaker 1: about what could have happened to them if he had

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Speaker 1: not removed them. I actually yes, So it's pretty clear

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Speaker 1: um from a lot of different angles that if he

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Speaker 1: had not removed them at all, they would have had

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Speaker 1: further damage. Like there's there's just been a lot of

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Speaker 1: documentation about like the ongoing vandalism, um, ongoing damage through

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Speaker 1: all of those monuments for the pieces that were that

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Speaker 1: remained there, basically from the nineteenth century when Elgin was

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Speaker 1: there doing that work into the early twentieth century. With

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Speaker 1: Greece becoming um an independent nation as it exists more

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Speaker 1: as it exists today, it was still all the structure

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Speaker 1: was a little different when it first became independent than

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Speaker 1: it than it has become. But I think that argument,

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Speaker 1: like that's there's a valid argument to be made there

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Speaker 1: that if if somebody had not removed a lot of

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Speaker 1: this artwork and protected it, then it would have been

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Speaker 1: damaged further. But at this point, like the nation of

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Speaker 1: Greece has done so much work to build the museum

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Speaker 1: and to clean up its air quality and all that

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Speaker 1: other stuff, uh and just persistently said can we please

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Speaker 1: have that back? It's like, okay, if we have this

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Speaker 1: argument of yes, these pieces in a lot of ways

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Speaker 1: were protected in some ways they weren't protected because they

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Speaker 1: wound up being shipwrecked and over cleaned and all this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff, like, Okay, that the need to have

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Speaker 1: them protected in this way is over, maybe we can

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Speaker 1: return them to Greece now. I also feel like there

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Speaker 1: are some really complicated issues there involving sort of like

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Speaker 1: the paternalism of a lot of a lot of things

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Speaker 1: we've talked about and on some previous shows before. Um

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Speaker 1: when when somebody has said, oh, you know what I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do is I'm going to make sure to preserve

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Speaker 1: these things because the local people don't seem to know

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Speaker 1: what they have here without really asking the local people

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Speaker 1: or finding out what they do actually know, or finding

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Speaker 1: out like what the meanings of these sites are. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and like it becomes kind of a complicated thing where

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Speaker 1: somebody kind of tramps in and says, I know it's

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Speaker 1: best in the situation, which is not necessarily true. A

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Speaker 1: lot of arguments against returning some of the things that

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Speaker 1: nations have said, can we please have that back? It's

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Speaker 1: an important part of our cultural heritage, and it was

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Speaker 1: like it was removed during a colonial period or during

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Speaker 1: a war, or we don't know how somebody took it

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Speaker 1: and we don't have it anymore. Like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the arguments that people make for not returning them, like

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Speaker 1: some of them kind of boiled down to the idea of, well,

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Speaker 1: we won't be able to see it in the museum

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Speaker 1: if we give it back to you, and like there

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Speaker 1: is an element of racism in that argument a lot

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Speaker 1: of the time, like like we need to make it

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Speaker 1: easier for the white people to see this art is

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Speaker 1: kind of the core argument of that sometimes, and that's

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Speaker 1: that's a little disturbing well, especially because I think that

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Speaker 1: that argument gets made in a way that is particularly nefarious,

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Speaker 1: which is like there is this veneer not always, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes of the white people need to see this art

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Speaker 1: because we're trying to understand you, Like it's almost like

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Speaker 1: we're so magnanimous, we're trying to appreciate other cultures and

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Speaker 1: you're not letting us. And it's like that is a

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Speaker 1: twisted way to look at this whole thing. That's where

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Speaker 1: my hackles get super up. I keep trying to think

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Speaker 1: about it in two ways that are conflicting. One is

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Speaker 1: like on a micro level of like have you ever

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Speaker 1: known someone in your personal life who had some treasure

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Speaker 1: that was perhaps in their family for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and they clearly are not taking care of it and

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Speaker 1: don't understand what it is. And there is that whole like,

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Speaker 1: I really wish you would just let me take this thing,

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Speaker 1: because it's going to be a wreck if I leave

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Speaker 1: it with you forever. And I understand that, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time, it's theirs. But then I also think

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Speaker 1: in the much bigger, bigger picture of like all of

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Speaker 1: these concepts of nationality and identity around it are to

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Speaker 1: some degree constructs that we have made up around lines

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Speaker 1: that are imaginary that we have drawn on maps, and

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Speaker 1: like that makes it a little trickier. I don't the

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Speaker 1: two work at odds. Like I said, it's not it's

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Speaker 1: not an eating thing, and I do understand. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I certainly know that I have been to museums and

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Speaker 1: stood there and looked at things that were from cultures

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Speaker 1: very far away from my own and loved them and

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Speaker 1: been very happy to see them. But I also can't

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Speaker 1: deny that, like, hey, it sure would be cool for

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Speaker 1: the people more connected to this to have access to it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you and I have. I mean, we've talked about our

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Speaker 1: love for museums on the show A lot like that.

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Speaker 1: That's come up a lot of times. And I do

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Speaker 1: love museums, and I think museums can serve a really

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Speaker 1: valuable role. And I think a lot of museums are

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Speaker 1: really struggling right now as they sort of realized that, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I live I live in Massachusetts. The Boston

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Speaker 1: Museum of Fine Arts has had a series of incidents

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Speaker 1: where like they planned an event that was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be something positive without really taking into account the people

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Speaker 1: they were actually representing, Like uh, and and you know it.

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Speaker 1: It reflects the fact that in a lot of museums,

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Speaker 1: the curators are mostly white, the board is mostly white,

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Speaker 1: and and not necessarily I'm not saying that white people

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Speaker 1: can't do this job, but not really having the viewpoints

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Speaker 1: of the people whose artwork they're they're curating and representing,

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Speaker 1: and like that shine shines through sometimes. So it's like

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Speaker 1: I can see how museums can be really problematic and

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Speaker 1: in that kind of programming. And then also at the

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Speaker 1: same time, I often will be at a museum looking

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Speaker 1: at a piece in front of me and my thought is, like,

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Speaker 1: where did you get this? And how like that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that I am thinking about a lot of the

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Speaker 1: times when I when I'm looking at a museum. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's not entirely within the scope of the episode that

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Speaker 1: we just talked about, but this idea that if Britain

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Speaker 1: returns the Parthenon Marbles, a whole lot of other museums

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Speaker 1: are gonna like it's gonna start this landslide of museums

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Speaker 1: having to return stuff. Like I think people have sort

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Speaker 1: of this imaginary situation where Britain returns the Parthenon Marbles

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Speaker 1: and then the people show up with the pitchforks and

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Speaker 1: the torches demanding all of the art back, and the

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Speaker 1: walls are going to be totally empty. Like there's this

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Speaker 1: weird fear like that's going to be the next step,

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Speaker 1: which I don't think is really what would happen, UM.

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Speaker 1: But that kind of fear has led to a couple

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Speaker 1: of just really appalling crimes that I know about. UM.

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Speaker 1: One of them is here in the United States, after

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Speaker 1: the passage of the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Thomas Munson, who was acting as the

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Speaker 1: park superintendent at at Effigy Mounds National Monument, which has

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Speaker 1: its own whole series of controversies in its history. He

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Speaker 1: stole the bones of like forty one different people that

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Speaker 1: had been housed in their collection. The reason that he

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Speaker 1: stole it is that so those remains wouldn't be repatriated

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Speaker 1: to the people that they belonged to, and in doing so,

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Speaker 1: he basically destroyed the context of all of those pieces

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Speaker 1: like that, that's like, okay, now, how do we figure

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Speaker 1: out who all these bones belong to and who they

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Speaker 1: should be repatriated to? Like that was just a really

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Speaker 1: horrifying crime that was motivated by racism and by this

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Speaker 1: fear of like returning things to the cultures that they

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Speaker 1: came from. Yeah, I also wonder if there is another

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Speaker 1: fear that is not really been introduced. And this is

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Speaker 1: purely speculations, so please don't museum people come after me.

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Speaker 1: But I really wonder if there is a subtler fear

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Speaker 1: that starting to do something like this repatriating these marbles

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Speaker 1: will open up a Pandora's box where people really start

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Speaker 1: looking a lot more closely in general, at the providence

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Speaker 1: of art pieces that are often in museums, and it

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Speaker 1: will reveal that are there are a lot of dirty

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Speaker 1: hands along the way like, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: pieces of art that have been you know, passed around

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Speaker 1: through various private collectors that probably never should have been

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Speaker 1: in the hand a lot of the hands that they

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Speaker 1: were in, and that opens up a whole other moral

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Speaker 1: discussion similarly of like should a museum buy a piece

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Speaker 1: of art from a private collector where maybe they don't

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Speaker 1: know how that person got it and it may not

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Speaker 1: be an entirely above board providence lineage in terms of

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Speaker 1: when it was created to when this person has their

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Speaker 1: hands in it, they're theoretically taking it out of the

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Speaker 1: into somebody that shouldn't have it and putting it on

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Speaker 1: a wall, but they are also indirectly perpetuating the problem, right.

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Speaker 1: I worried that that too, is probably part of the

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Speaker 1: discussion either not happening but being thought about, or happening

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Speaker 1: but being happening in a much quieter way, because it

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Speaker 1: does open, like I said, a Pandora's box of how

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Speaker 1: art has moved through the world for centuries. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure, for sure, I think that's probably likely an

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Speaker 1: element in it. Also, Yeah, it's such a whole, huge, complicated,

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Speaker 1: important issue because like I've definitely been inspired to learn

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Speaker 1: more about things by things I saw and saw in museums,

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Speaker 1: And I've learned a lot from museums. And there are

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Speaker 1: so many like indigenous people, people of color saying like, hey,

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Speaker 1: that that's actually ours, like it's it's not yours. And

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Speaker 1: I think there's a really incredibly important important voices to

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Speaker 1: listen to and elevate in all of this, and in

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases, um, when museums have started working

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Speaker 1: more directly with the people whose artifacts are in their collections,

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Speaker 1: like that's really made the museum's experience a whole lot

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Speaker 1: richer in terms of what information they've been able to share,

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Speaker 1: how they've been able to curate their own collections. I

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Speaker 1: am hopeful that like the world of museums will just

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Speaker 1: continue to get more diverse and richer in that way,

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Speaker 1: and and like we'll sort of arrive at a place

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Speaker 1: at some point in the future, maybe not in my lifetime,

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Speaker 1: where where it feels like museums really are curating things

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Speaker 1: in a way that is always respectful and thoughtful of

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Speaker 1: the people whose um whose artifacts are in the collection.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we have inadvertently stumbled into like a

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Speaker 1: really good television show, Pitch Please don't anyone do this

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Speaker 1: um where we have the main hero is a person

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Speaker 1: who steals from museums Allah Robin Hood to repatriat them

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Speaker 1: to the places they belong. It could be like her

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Speaker 1: food were they're a traveler and we we see them

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Speaker 1: each week doing good in the world. Yeah, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: reverse Indiana Jones and kind of like I'm gonna take

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Speaker 1: this back to the people that belongs to you. Well,

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Speaker 1: although Indiana Jones at least wanted them in museums first, yes,

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Speaker 1: versus the people that wanted to do other things with them.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I uh, yeah, this is gonna be a

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Speaker 1: great show. We're gonna pitch it, We're gonna uh it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be imitable, which is going to be unfortunate. There

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Speaker 1: will be subsequent lawsuits. I think we found out how

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Speaker 1: we meet our ruin and it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: great ride. Yeah. Uh. Also, I know that all this

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Speaker 1: stuff that we've just talked about for the last I

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Speaker 1: guess ten or twelve minutes, a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: really passionate opinions about this, and we will probably hear

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Speaker 1: from people in our listener mail um of people who

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Speaker 1: agree or disagree of all the various things that we

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Speaker 1: have said to spend that in the most positive way

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Speaker 1: I can. It's because art means that much. It does. Like.

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Speaker 1: That's to me part of like the case to be

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Speaker 1: made for art when people are like art. Uh, it

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Speaker 1: means a lot to people culturally and historically as well

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Speaker 1: as just it evokes a lot of emotion because it

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Speaker 1: is art. Um. That's my positive spin on that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It is good that that folks care about this. Um.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I really I would like those marbles

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Speaker 1: to be back in Athens one day. It's also would

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Speaker 1: be a nice excuse for a trip to Athens to

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Speaker 1: go see them. Yeah, I means crossed trips, the lots

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Speaker 1: of places. So um. If you would like to write

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Speaker 1: to us about this or our other podcasts or history

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Speaker 1: podcast at i heart media dot com and all over

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Speaker 1: social media at miss in History, and you can subscribe

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Speaker 1: to our show on Apple Podcasts or the I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio Apple or anywhere else you like to get podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of

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