Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. But riddle me this,
Speaker 3: friends and neighbors, who's not here? If you guess Pope Francis,
Speaker 3: you are correct? Ouch damn rip the Pope. Yes. Pope
Speaker 3: Francis passed away on April twenty first, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: The official cause for the Vatican is a and cardiac
Speaker 3: arrest after you know, known continuing complications with double pneumonia
Speaker 3: a respiratory tract infection. These can be very dangerous things,
Speaker 3: especially for people who are getting up in years. He
Speaker 3: had a life well lived. He passed at the age
Speaker 3: of eighty eight, and he had been you know, like
Speaker 3: we said, he had been struggling for some time leading
Speaker 3: up to his passage. And I don't know, guys, we
Speaker 3: talked about this off air. We mentioned this in a
Speaker 3: Strange News segment a while back, or pretty recently actually,
Speaker 3: And I think it's fair to say that although we
Speaker 3: are not ourselves practicing Catholics, we do acknowledge the global
Speaker 3: grief felt by billions of people in the wake of
Speaker 3: the pope's death. Well, he was like a meaningful pope too.
Speaker 4: I was talking to my friend Harry, a friend of
Speaker 4: the show who's visiting me, and I was like, this
Speaker 4: is the good pope, right, this is the one that
Speaker 4: I think even average folks seemed to know about and acknowledge.
Speaker 4: For his somewhat progressive ideas around many things relating to Catholicism,
Speaker 4: did very important work in rectifying or at the very
Speaker 4: least addressing some of the horrible cases of abuse who
Speaker 4: folks have suffered under the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, social activists as well for sure.
Speaker 2: And now, if you're listening to this on the day
Speaker 2: it comes out, in the Vatican, within the Sistine Chapel,
Speaker 2: all the cardinals that are eligible have gathered up. Today
Speaker 2: they begin the quest to make a new pope.
Speaker 3: This a questered quest. The conclave begins on May seventh.
Speaker 3: We are recording this on Monday, April twenty eighth. We were,
Speaker 3: you know, we had a conversation off air folks about
Speaker 3: timing of this, whether we should wait for the new
Speaker 3: pope to be officially chosen until we get the you know,
Speaker 3: the signals of smoke from the Vatican, which is the
Speaker 3: traditional way of announcing the election of a new pope
Speaker 3: with that new pope smell sure, sure, And what we
Speaker 3: wanted to do instead was to respond to a lot
Speaker 3: of correspondence we've received with questions, commentary, and interpretations about
Speaker 3: what this this passage means for the world ahead. And
Speaker 3: one of the strangest related concepts that comes back into
Speaker 3: the news anytime a new pope must be elected is
Speaker 3: something called the prophecy of Saint Malachi, also known as
Speaker 3: the prophecy of the Popes.
Speaker 4: And we're going to get into what exactly that means
Speaker 4: and consists of. Right after a quick word from a sponsor, here.
Speaker 3: Are the facts, all right. There are a lot of
Speaker 3: saints in Catholicism. There are a lot of formally recognized saints,
Speaker 3: right canonized, and then there are a lot of what
Speaker 3: we call folk saints, which is a result of centuries
Speaker 3: of religious syncretism. Right, and this guy, Saint Malachi is
Speaker 3: an official Catholic saint. I've got it here in the notes.
Speaker 3: His real baptismal name is kind of hard to pronounce.
Speaker 3: We know that he was born in ten ninety four
Speaker 3: in Northern Ireland, but a lot of his early life
Speaker 3: has lost to history. He's, perhaps in Catholicism, best known
Speaker 3: as the first native born Irish saint. Does anyone want
Speaker 3: to tackle his baptismal name or do we just want
Speaker 3: to spell it?
Speaker 2: Spell?
Speaker 3: Yes? Okay, I'm with you there, Matt. He is baptized
Speaker 3: as m a l mhao dhog space ua space morgaar
Speaker 3: r gai r Right there. You say about that, that's
Speaker 3: how we're going to say. Okay, cool, that's how we're
Speaker 3: going to say it. I don't we don't want to
Speaker 3: be disrespectful. Is Gaelic the word? How would you pronounce it?
Speaker 3: How would you pronounce mal malma dog? That's pretty good.
Speaker 3: I don't know is this Gaelic?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 3: It has to be. It's a lot of contents and uhs,
Speaker 3: we're going to call it Malick. Okay, fair enough. We
Speaker 3: know he didn't have as so many children. Uh then
Speaker 3: and now I've experienced. He didn't have the best of childhoods.
Speaker 3: His father passed away. His father was a teacher, and
Speaker 3: his father passed away when Malachi was only seven years old.
Speaker 3: And then later when his mother passes away, he gets
Speaker 3: into a mentorship follower position with a holy recluse, living
Speaker 3: near a cathedral, living in a cell like anchorte, like
Speaker 3: a hermit. Whoa okay.
Speaker 4: So he became a priest in eleven nineteen and rose
Speaker 4: up through the ranks to become a bishop in eleven
Speaker 4: thirty two, and then he passed away in eleven forty eight.
Speaker 4: In his life, throughout his life he was known for
Speaker 4: this idea of restoring discipline with some liberals around that
Speaker 4: whatever that means, it's a little vague to the area
Speaker 4: that was under his care. People felt at the time
Speaker 4: the church had grown a bit lax, had sort of
Speaker 4: lost its way a bit, perhaps was not adjusting or
Speaker 4: reacting to some of the chaos of the time, and
Speaker 4: he was sort of looked at as bringing the church
Speaker 4: up to date to reinstill kind of that sense of
Speaker 4: spiritual discipline into a world gone awry.
Speaker 3: And his later biographer, Bernard of Clairvaux, would write an
Speaker 3: entire book about this man, because that's what biographers do.
Speaker 3: He calls this work the Life of Saint Malachi or
Speaker 3: just Life of Saint Malachi, and in this he describes
Speaker 3: pretty much what you're talking about. No, he says, Malachi
Speaker 3: was known for his obedience to God, his discipline to
Speaker 3: the church and doctrine, as well as his humility and meekness.
Speaker 3: So in modern parlance, he made church cool again. He
Speaker 3: made the sacrament cool again. He was renewing belief at
Speaker 3: a time when many people in the area were questioning
Speaker 3: the importance and the authority of the church, not just
Speaker 3: as a secular institution, but as a spiritual belief system.
Speaker 3: And we have to remember, you know, there are a
Speaker 3: lot of other religions still around at the time in
Speaker 3: that area.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and everybody's buying to get new followers to
Speaker 2: you know, to all of the different religions. It's very important.
Speaker 2: You need more human beings to go out and do
Speaker 2: the work for the church, slash the gathering, slash whatever
Speaker 2: it is, got.
Speaker 3: To grow flock maybe, yeah, because we have to remember
Speaker 3: it's still the case now in modern evenings, but back then,
Speaker 3: spiritual power and approval of a spiritual system was pretty
Speaker 3: much the same thing as acquiring political power. Oh gosh, yes,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Do you think the Catholic Church is as influential today
Speaker 4: as it was in the past, or as it eroded
Speaker 4: a bit in terms of its political capital.
Speaker 3: That's interesting. That reminds me very much of the recent funeral,
Speaker 3: which is part of why we held off on recording
Speaker 3: this episode of the Blue Suit. Oh the Yeah, the
Speaker 3: current US president were a suit that was apparently too
Speaker 3: light in color for some dress codes. But I'm thinking
Speaker 3: more about just the entirety of the world leaders, many
Speaker 3: people who would ordinarily not be in the same room together.
Speaker 3: I bet you saw it too, Matt, the anti drone
Speaker 3: technology in play. Did you see those? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: It's such a security risk to have all as.
Speaker 2: Me, Oh yeah, in my mind, guys, I'm trying to
Speaker 2: formulate this thought. I don't think the Catholic Church has
Speaker 2: as much power as it maybe once did in the
Speaker 2: minds of individuals. To me, and this may be fully wrong,
Speaker 2: but to me, the spiritual nature of someone was a
Speaker 2: big part of their identity. I'm not saying that it's
Speaker 2: not that way anymore. But maybe it was stronger, a
Speaker 2: stronger piece of individual identity for WHI. And now the
Speaker 2: power that the Catholic Church wields the Roman Empire as
Speaker 2: a religion is monetary to me, just because of the
Speaker 2: amount of money that has been flowing through and growing
Speaker 2: right over all of these centuries.
Speaker 3: Shout out to the Black Pope, right.
Speaker 2: And all the anti popes that I didn't even know about.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and shout out to of course our friends
Speaker 3: at the Vatican Bank, Opus day and night, Tamalta, the Jasuitz. Look,
Speaker 3: I think to that question, what's really interesting about it
Speaker 3: is that you could argue, yes, there is growing secularism,
Speaker 3: especially in Europe and the Mediterranean overall, just across time. However,
Speaker 3: the reach of the Catholic Church it's global. You know,
Speaker 3: we're talking Latin America, we're talking the Philippines when like
Speaker 3: the biggest Asiatic country or Asian country that practices Catholicism.
Speaker 3: So maybe the influence has evolved or shifted, but it's
Speaker 3: still a huge deal, whether we're talking spiritually or for
Speaker 3: the atheist in the crowd. Simply geopolitically and financially, the
Speaker 3: pope is one of the most important figures in the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely, guys. Before we get into the
Speaker 2: next section here, which is really what this episode's all about,
Speaker 2: can we just briefly talk about the process, just explain
Speaker 2: the process of selecting a pope, because I think to me,
Speaker 2: that's what's so astonishing about the potential feat of predicting
Speaker 2: how this whole process would actually work out and then
Speaker 2: doing that over and over and over and over again
Speaker 2: in a single book, like we're going to talk about
Speaker 2: in the next section. So if we don't mind, just
Speaker 2: I'd like to talk about what the actual conclave is
Speaker 2: and how it functions, because it is pretty mind blowing.
Speaker 4: Well, and speaking of the predictability of it, I would
Speaker 4: be interested in keeping an eye on betting markets around
Speaker 4: the next trope is going to be, because you know
Speaker 4: they're out there. But I also will mention again I
Speaker 4: think we said it in our previous conversation, maybe it
Speaker 4: was on Strange News about the film Conclave and how
Speaker 4: the downloads of it are through the roof, because a
Speaker 4: lot of people want to know about this process, and
Speaker 4: the timing couldn't be better for the creators of that
Speaker 4: excellent film, and it does show in great detail how
Speaker 4: the process works.
Speaker 3: So let's go through that now. I actually started reading
Speaker 3: that novel too that the film based on it, and
Speaker 3: I was really impressed with the author, Robert Harris. So
Speaker 3: far I haven't finished it, but he put boots on
Speaker 3: the grounds. Yeah, and he went to the Vatican and
Speaker 3: they walked him through the process. So it is there's
Speaker 3: a lot of Conclave is of course a film, right,
Speaker 3: not a documentary, but it does have a lot of
Speaker 3: factual insights into the real life process of the cardinals
Speaker 3: and the conclict.
Speaker 4: And the perspective is need because you kind of feel
Speaker 4: like a fly on the wall. You're trapped in there
Speaker 4: with them, So there is that. It's certainly an experiential film.
Speaker 4: I highly recommend it.
Speaker 3: So let's spend a few minutes on the process.
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's say Pope passes away, as just happened,
Speaker 2: and we need to choose a new pope. You have
Speaker 2: to gather together all of the cardinals that exist, the
Speaker 2: Catholic cardinals that are officially a part of the church.
Speaker 2: There are seventy one countries on the planet that have
Speaker 2: cardinals residing within them. You have to get all of
Speaker 2: those cardinals by the way, there are one hundred and
Speaker 2: thirty five eligible cardinals right now on the planet.
Speaker 3: Out of two hundred and fifty two total yes.
Speaker 2: And the reason why they're only one hundred and thirty
Speaker 2: five eligible cardinals is because you have to be under
Speaker 2: the age of eighty to go and be a part
Speaker 2: of this conclave process.
Speaker 3: So let's pause there. Just think about the math of
Speaker 3: the two hundred and fifty two. One hundred and thirty
Speaker 3: five are young enough to vote.
Speaker 2: Yes, which just tells you about maybe cardinals are just old.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Maybe.
Speaker 3: I mean it is a position of high authority, it is,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's not a right now.
Speaker 3: I mean historically this wasn't always the case, but right
Speaker 3: now you do have to kind of earn that position. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you can't just be like a cardinal nepo baby, a
Speaker 3: car nepo. But well in to not anymore, right, But
Speaker 3: also the issue is maybe just to be fair travel concerns,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, for people are quite elderly for.
Speaker 2: Sure, and you know, who knows, if who knows what
Speaker 2: you're going to do with your vote if you're almost
Speaker 2: out of here already. I don't know the idea. I
Speaker 2: think I think the idea is you make a decision
Speaker 2: that a slightly younger person, even if you're still seventy nine,
Speaker 2: you make a decision based on what's going to be
Speaker 2: best for the church and or for humanity or whatever
Speaker 2: that decision is based on.
Speaker 4: But there are still constituencies, right, like, there are people
Speaker 4: that these individual popes from their parts of the world represent,
Speaker 4: and perhaps there might be difference maybe politically.
Speaker 2: That's yeahdred percent. Yeah, thought is everybody is going to
Speaker 2: do what you know, follow tells them, Yeah, what what
Speaker 2: the vision is?
Speaker 4: What the Yeah, I guess, I guess it's just to
Speaker 4: say that this process, though incredibly you know, rooted in
Speaker 4: sacred tradition, is not immune from the trappings of politics.
Speaker 3: We'll talk about it. We'll talk about that in depth,
Speaker 3: I think. But to your point, Matt, part of the
Speaker 3: calculation not just safety of travel. Sure, that is at
Speaker 3: best a tertiary concern. If we're being honest, it's holding
Speaker 3: to tradition like you were saying, no voting in absentia,
Speaker 3: And then I would argue, also, what I think we're
Speaker 3: getting at here, Matt, is the idea that to vote
Speaker 3: your conscience and God's will, you need to be young
Speaker 3: enough to realize that it will still affect you. You
Speaker 3: can't just vote and be out. There will be consequences
Speaker 3: and ramifications within your lifetime for your part of the
Speaker 3: church and the church overall.
Speaker 2: And yet it is a secret ballot, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: everybody who can vote hangs out, hangs out, gets locked
Speaker 2: inside the Systeine.
Speaker 3: Chapel like a sequestered jury. Yep.
Speaker 2: They write down in secret the name of their chosen
Speaker 2: candidate and then buy rank because the cardinals are ranked. Right,
Speaker 2: you go up and you put your vote piece of
Speaker 2: paper into a sacramental urn. It's like a ceremonial urn.
Speaker 2: Then there are three cardinals who are the Scrutineers. That's
Speaker 2: their name. They tally all the ballots. Once they've counted them,
Speaker 2: they burn all of them ballots, and so nobody knows
Speaker 2: but the three scrutineers. And then if there is a
Speaker 2: two thirds majority candidate chosen out of that vote, then
Speaker 2: they light the white smoke and the Sistine Chapel and
Speaker 2: everybody knows there's a new pope. If not, they hold
Speaker 2: the vote again and again and.
Speaker 3: Again again again, and it can go on for a while.
Speaker 2: Oh dude, so Okay, so it goes on. There are
Speaker 2: two votes in the morning and two votes in the afternoon, right,
Speaker 2: black smoke every time. If no pope is chosen, then
Speaker 2: they'll do that for three days straight. Then if no
Speaker 2: pope has been chosen, they take a day off, and
Speaker 2: then they go back and they do it again.
Speaker 3: Off is really for networking politicking, Yes, in one's case,
Speaker 3: that's what it's That's what it's for. And also, you
Speaker 3: know this is going to be this is going to
Speaker 3: be familiar to so many people, the Catholic and non
Speaker 3: Catholic alike. There is a lot of old tradition here,
Speaker 3: and some of it can frankly seem a little bit
Speaker 3: extra in the parlance of our time, or perhaps a
Speaker 3: little bit maybe silly or officious. But I would argue
Speaker 3: as a non Catholic that it is incredibly important to
Speaker 3: remember there's a reason they did. They're still doing stuff
Speaker 3: this way, like the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment.
Speaker 3: We're getting so far away from the point of this show.
Speaker 3: But the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment after
Speaker 3: his death, we didn't even talk about all the death
Speaker 3: rituals is because people used to like rob the guy's apartment,
Speaker 3: rob the papal apartment for reliqueries and objects of power.
Speaker 3: They used to rob the graves, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: That's why there's a triple lined cat. Yes.
Speaker 2: Well, I just just to the point of being about
Speaker 2: the show. I think all this stuff is important because
Speaker 2: this is all this Imagine that process that we just
Speaker 2: described and then the stakes that Ben just described there,
Speaker 2: Like once a pope is out of the office, imagine
Speaker 2: somebody having some kind of vision at some point and
Speaker 2: writing down this vision where he saw every single pope
Speaker 2: that's going to come into power for hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 2: of years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if it was him, and this is.
Speaker 2: Our if it was real, if any of us, if
Speaker 2: this is.
Speaker 3: Our segue back to Malachi, So we know just a
Speaker 3: very little bit about him now today, for I would
Speaker 3: say lay Catholic and non Catholics alike. Malachi is not
Speaker 3: known for his living work in the Church. He's instead
Speaker 3: known for a cryptic piece of writing we alluded to
Speaker 3: at the top, generally called the Prophecy of the Popes.
Speaker 3: Technically it's called Prophecy of Saint Archbishop Malachi Canning the
Speaker 3: Supreme Pontiffs, the Bishop of Rome, the popes. It's weird
Speaker 3: because it sounds like it's a book, but it's eleven
Speaker 3: short sort of single line paragraphs and then two additional paragraphs.
Speaker 3: There are multiple lines, and like you were saying, Matt,
Speaker 3: it claims to be a divinely inspired guide to predict
Speaker 3: the secession of one hundred and twelve total popes, starting
Speaker 3: with Pope Celestine the second in eleven forty three, right
Speaker 3: during the life of Saint Malachi, and then it goes
Speaker 3: onward and at the very end there's a guy named
Speaker 3: Petrus Romanus who is supposed to emerge as a final
Speaker 3: figure after the one hundred and twelfth pope. So, according
Speaker 3: to the tradition we're saying, Malachi is summoned to Rome
Speaker 3: by the Pope at the time he sees the famous
Speaker 3: seven Hills, and when he sees them for the first
Speaker 3: time in his life, he falls to his knees. He
Speaker 3: has this vision. It details every single poop who will
Speaker 3: reign in the Catholic Church with that ending point a
Speaker 3: guy named Petris Robantus. And I suggest we share an
Speaker 3: English translation of what they say about Petrus because it's
Speaker 3: pretty heavy.
Speaker 4: So here's a quote in the final persecution of the
Speaker 4: Holy Roman Church. There will reign Peter the Roman, who
Speaker 4: will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the
Speaker 4: city of Seven Hills will be destroyed, and the Dreadful
Speaker 4: Judge will judge the people. That's a that's a bit much.
Speaker 3: Real end of days, you know, Oh boy, the return
Speaker 3: of the anti Christ. Now have we ticked off any
Speaker 3: of these boxes? Guys? Are we going to go through it?
Speaker 3: Just how it's perceived? Okay, okay?
Speaker 2: Hold on, is the Dreadful Judge? Is that God Christ?
Speaker 2: Or is it God? It's God?
Speaker 3: I think, how does one interpret? You know?
Speaker 2: I mean, he doesn't specify, but but if it's going
Speaker 2: by the Bible, right it's God, then it is like
Speaker 2: the dude is coming. Because in Revelation, the only the
Speaker 2: only being in existence that knows when the end of
Speaker 2: times occurs, the Judgment Day occurs, is God himself. Not
Speaker 2: even Jesus is aware.
Speaker 3: No, Jesus can only intercede yes on behalf of humanity
Speaker 3: and the world. I mean, these are bold claims, and
Speaker 3: we're talking about interpretation already. Those who believe the prophecy
Speaker 3: is correct have serious and worriessome questions about what happens now.
Speaker 3: The final pope is going to be the one hundred
Speaker 3: and twelfth after whom we got this Peter the Robin
Speaker 3: guy who leads the church through the tribulation period. But
Speaker 3: things go terribly wrong. This is the time of judgment
Speaker 3: and it may occur within your lifetime if you believe
Speaker 3: that the one hundred and twelfth Pope was the recently
Speaker 3: passed Pope Francis. So common interpretations will tell us that
Speaker 3: Pope Francis is the one hundred and twelfth on Malachi's
Speaker 3: list or Arnold's spoiler. We'll get to it.
Speaker 4: So he would be pre Peter the Roman, Yeah, the
Speaker 4: penultimate okay, so.
Speaker 2: But some people say he was Peter the Roman.
Speaker 3: And Peter the Roman again. Tea leaves interpretation. How does
Speaker 3: this help you address the world? What happens next? Is
Speaker 3: the world prepared? What do we know about this purported
Speaker 3: prophecy and its claims? And what do we make of
Speaker 3: the interpretations. Let's pause for a word from our sponsors
Speaker 3: and then dive in. Here's where it gets crazy. All right,
Speaker 3: Before we answer any of those questions, not to tease
Speaker 3: everyone too much, we have to acknowledge that there's a
Speaker 3: bag of badger's here because the prophecy is attributed to
Speaker 3: Saint Malachi, said to be written in eleven thirty nine,
Speaker 3: but it's first published much later. Okay, it's lost at
Speaker 3: some point, and then it's rediscovered, and at some point
Speaker 3: after its rediscovery it is published in fifteen ninety five
Speaker 3: by a Benedictine monk named Arnold Wyld.
Speaker 2: So almost four hundred and what fifty years later, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's huh.
Speaker 3: The papal predictions up to fifteen ninety are super precise.
Speaker 3: What up to when he publishes it, they're super odd point,
Speaker 3: like bullseye. Every time it gets a little less precise,
Speaker 3: you could argue increasingly less precise after fifteen ninety. This
Speaker 3: would lead believers to say, well, maybe it's an imperfect
Speaker 3: interpretation of a perfect prophecy, and skeptics would say imperfect
Speaker 3: is just a fancier way of saying guessing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, I want to just do a quick thought experiment.
Speaker 2: Imagine you are Saint Malachi right now, you look out
Speaker 2: at those seven hills, you have this vision. Do you
Speaker 2: have just some paper to start writing down in great
Speaker 2: detail exactly what you saw, perhaps like gold tablets, but
Speaker 2: like one hundred and twelve iterations of what you're seeing
Speaker 2: in the moment.
Speaker 3: Do a sketch? Maybe it's a good question. But also
Speaker 3: one could argue that being like a divine a divine
Speaker 3: revelation like this is encoded differently. Right, what if it's
Speaker 3: burned into your brain?
Speaker 4: How could we possibly comprehend what that must be like?
Speaker 4: It would be a whole different set of equipment that's
Speaker 4: being used.
Speaker 2: Right, But it's like a movie that's playing, and you're
Speaker 2: able to see enough of it to write down like
Speaker 2: very specific cryptic things.
Speaker 3: It's a moment that exists outside of time. You could
Speaker 3: say that you continually return to. It's always that moment
Speaker 3: there are you know, Because we're dealing with divinity and spirituality,
Speaker 3: the primary assumption is that the regular rules to some
Speaker 3: degree do not apply.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So that's how.
Speaker 3: We would explain it. Yeah, if we're taking the side
Speaker 3: of the true believers. Scholars, true believers among them went
Speaker 3: back and examined the prophecies at length lay before this
Speaker 3: hit the most recent news cycle, and they said, okay,
Speaker 3: hold on, so we know this doesn't begin with the
Speaker 3: very first popes. It starts in eleven thirty nine, and
Speaker 3: it's right about that prediction, and it's right about every
Speaker 3: other prediction up to fifteen ninety, depending on how you
Speaker 3: interpret it. It's more specific than everything post fifteen ninety.
Speaker 4: And yet after fifteen ninety, as prophecies often lead to,
Speaker 4: there becomes more vagary, which opens it up to even
Speaker 4: further interpretation and reinterpretation and potentially politicization. You know, the
Speaker 4: idea of turning this prophecy towards a particular end depending
Speaker 4: on who's doing the interpreting.
Speaker 3: Right, Imagine going from abing someone very specifically, like this
Speaker 3: is Josiah Williams Wilkerson, and this will be the pope
Speaker 3: this time, and then as you get further into the future,
Speaker 3: it's like there's a guy associated with olives.
Speaker 2: You gotta believe me, Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it sounds.
Speaker 3: Like a specific example.
Speaker 2: Yes, you are a very recent one, at least in
Speaker 2: for our history, but it feels as though it becomes
Speaker 2: horoscopes for a potential human being, right, and like you
Speaker 2: could pull anything from that concept of olives apply it
Speaker 2: to the person who was elected, right, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean it could be anything in their life.
Speaker 3: I like I think that's important to I also like
Speaker 3: the analogy of a rorshack, right, it's a psychological rorshack painting, right,
Speaker 3: what do you see? What does this word mean in
Speaker 3: this context? And that's the interpreters and champions of this work.
Speaker 3: They say they will, they will argue the prophecy does
Speaker 3: contain specific predictions that cannot be denied, including the more
Speaker 3: recent predictions or what we think of. So maybe it's
Speaker 3: helpful to check out a few examples here. Let's go
Speaker 3: to the olive thing. Pope Benedict, the one hundred and
Speaker 3: eleventh Pope, the one hundred and eleventh Pope. Malachi predicts
Speaker 3: one one one will be called gloria olive, meaning glory
Speaker 3: to the olive. Okay, that's not the same thing as Benedict.
Speaker 2: But wait, but wait, well, yeah, the Saints of Benedict,
Speaker 2: they are directly associated with olives.
Speaker 3: In fact, yeah, known as the Olivitants o Livitants. The
Speaker 3: Order of Saint Benedict. Yeah they have they have another name.
Speaker 3: And so for some researchers, you say, Pope Benedict came
Speaker 3: from this orders associated with it, therefore is associated with olives. Therefore,
Speaker 3: this is bringing glory to the olive. Therefore this prophecy
Speaker 3: is correct. You can see a second example. We'll just
Speaker 3: do like two more. One that I think really stood
Speaker 3: out a lot to all of us is the idea
Speaker 3: of de la borre Solis from the labor of the Sun.
Speaker 4: So it's possible that this maybe a reference to Pope
Speaker 4: John Paul the second, who was born during a solar eclipse. Again,
Speaker 4: was this a coincidence or divine providence? It depends on
Speaker 4: who you ask, Right, one person's coincidence to your point,
Speaker 4: Ben here in the outline, is another person's just absolute,
Speaker 4: unimpeachable evidence. So we've got another example in Peregrinus Apostolicus,
Speaker 4: and that is often linked with Pope Paul the sixth,
Speaker 4: who was quite the world traveler who traveled extensively throughout
Speaker 4: his career.
Speaker 2: Yeah, can we.
Speaker 3: Do a couple more, because sure, as many as you like.
Speaker 2: I want to show the difference between the what was
Speaker 2: the fifteen ninety fifteen ninety so pre fifteen ninety five,
Speaker 2: you've got Pope John the twenty second and the motto.
Speaker 2: The translation of the motto to English is from the
Speaker 2: bony shoemaker and he was the son of a dang shoemaker. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's pretty good, but that's in thirteen sixteen to thirteen
Speaker 2: thirty four. That's when John the twenty second was there.
Speaker 2: But then you go to Pope Urban or Urbane. I
Speaker 2: think it's Urban the eighth. This is sixteen twenty three
Speaker 2: to sixteen forty four, So that's after the period of accuracy. Right,
Speaker 2: it translates to Lily and rose and guess what's on
Speaker 2: the coat of arms for this person? Lily's and roses
Speaker 2: something that's on the coat of arms versus the son
Speaker 2: of a shoemaker. I don't know how you judge either
Speaker 2: of those two things as being like super accurate or
Speaker 2: not meaningful. Right, it's tough for me.
Speaker 3: Again, there's no one, especially fifteen ninety, even pre fifteen ninety,
Speaker 3: there's no one saying this guy's name is specifically this
Speaker 3: he's this tall, his include, Yeah, he's got a weird
Speaker 3: mole and you can find you know, it's on his armpit.
Speaker 3: Just ask him. That's the Pope. This is that's a
Speaker 3: weird conversation to have with his holiness. But still, you know,
Speaker 3: with these examples, we can see how, especially in the
Speaker 3: increasingly vague descriptions of more recent popes. Interpreters can get
Speaker 3: accused of grasping a cognitive straws, but there's a point
Speaker 3: we have to hit. It's super important. In all fairness,
Speaker 3: they don't have much to go on from the original prophecy,
Speaker 3: not a ton of bio details right, specific towns and
Speaker 3: so on. You might have to use as little as
Speaker 3: a single three word phrase to find a solid connection.
Speaker 3: But on the other side of this, there are a
Speaker 3: lot of things to connect too, because popes are some
Speaker 3: of the most famous, well documented people in their society
Speaker 3: right regardless of the time in which you're living, we
Speaker 3: know a lot about their lives, especially the more modern ones.
Speaker 3: So if you are looking for a positive interpretation to
Speaker 3: justify the prophecy to yourself as accurate, you have a
Speaker 3: lot more to pull from because these guys are obsessively
Speaker 3: researched and surveilled, you know what I mean. You could
Speaker 3: argue that it is going to be devilishly easy to
Speaker 3: call the next pope Peter the Roman just because we
Speaker 3: will know everything about the next pope and we can
Speaker 3: be like, oh, Peter, it's an acronym, or you know,
Speaker 3: this guy went to Rome one time.
Speaker 4: These prophecies are always so fun, especially when they don't
Speaker 4: come true, and then you have to see people kind
Speaker 4: of scrambling to explain why you know, I no, no, no, no,
Speaker 4: it was because this didn't quite happen.
Speaker 3: We missed this mistage. Just wait for it, wait for it.
Speaker 3: It's totally going to happen.
Speaker 2: It's coming, guys. I think this is a good point
Speaker 2: to bring this up to. It's something that I did
Speaker 2: not know at all. Anti popes.
Speaker 3: Yes, this is first for me. I'm gonna be completely surprised. Guys.
Speaker 4: I don't know about the anti pope, but I can
Speaker 4: maybe conjecture.
Speaker 2: But well, Noel, here, here you go. If you hear
Speaker 2: the word anti pope, what conjures in your mind Antichrist? Okay,
Speaker 2: that's I hear that too, especially associated with the Catholic Church. Right,
Speaker 2: Anti in front of something, it's not good. But what
Speaker 2: if it's an anti pope.
Speaker 3: It's it's oh, the church is term.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 3: It's purposely meant to cast dispersion and sound double plus
Speaker 3: on good. Right. I can't remember which church that's from,
Speaker 3: but I think that's here. Yeah, the antipo So people
Speaker 3: have often vied for this position, especially before the rise
Speaker 3: of secular thought as a widely accepted thing. Everybody wanted
Speaker 3: to be the pope. Now, yes, like you're king for God,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. The other monarchs are only
Speaker 3: worldly monarchs, so they got to jump when you say jump,
Speaker 3: So why wouldn't you want to be the pope? That
Speaker 3: means this tells us a little bit about why the
Speaker 3: conclave has these very strict traditionalist rules. There were a
Speaker 3: lot of people who said, yeah, I'm the pope.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but people who actually gained some power and some
Speaker 2: following who would then do things that the pope does,
Speaker 2: but in a different part of the world usually. So
Speaker 2: imagine there's a pope in you know, the Holy Roman
Speaker 2: Catholic Church there in Rome. But then there's another pope
Speaker 2: in Germany who says, well, I'm actually the pope and
Speaker 2: is practicing as the pope. And this is guys. I'm
Speaker 2: reading that graphic novel The Secret History, and that's the
Speaker 2: one that goes through basically history with a whole other
Speaker 2: version of what history is. Right, But in there there's
Speaker 2: a whole section about popes and anti popes, and it
Speaker 2: was all political as a way to at least with
Speaker 2: it's depicted in this stores there as a way to
Speaker 2: put the Roman Empire, what's remaining of the Roman Empire
Speaker 2: represented by the Catholic Church, versus like in this case,
Speaker 2: like Germany right in the Germanic forces. It's interesting that
Speaker 2: that's a real thing that was happening throughout history. There's
Speaker 2: a huge list of them that the Catholic Church agrees, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: these are all anti popes.
Speaker 3: A lot of people want the position and there can
Speaker 3: only be one. The pope is highlander rules for sure,
Speaker 3: and this this is the you know, I'm glad we're
Speaker 3: bringing this up because this is an issue that can
Speaker 3: cause schism in the church because if if you have, say,
Speaker 3: two different people houlding themselves the pope at the same time,
Speaker 3: and they both get a sizable number of followers and
Speaker 3: a sizeable amount of geopolitical support, then this could destroy
Speaker 3: the church, you know, it can set things into chaos well.
Speaker 2: And it's also a discrepancy within this prophecy because there
Speaker 2: are anti popes included within the list here that's given
Speaker 2: the allegedly given to us by Saint Malachi. And that's
Speaker 2: where the interpretation gets off even further because some of
Speaker 2: the antipopes. I guess it's unsure within people who are
Speaker 2: translating it now and trying to interpret it now whether
Speaker 2: or not a certain person included in that list is
Speaker 2: an antipope or an actual pope. And then if it
Speaker 2: is an antipope, does that throw off the number of
Speaker 2: popes of like where we actually are in the list?
Speaker 3: More importantly, it also gives us more room for interpretation
Speaker 3: and favorable interpretation. So if this one guy doesn't work out,
Speaker 3: what about this other gay Ian? It's really an antipope.
Speaker 3: So this is This is one of the things that
Speaker 3: we return to often on this show in our strange
Speaker 3: mission here, whether you're talking Nostradamus or Edgar Casey doomsday prophecies,
Speaker 3: of which abound throughout history. The one thing we returned
Speaker 3: to is prophecy is tricky. We're not being jerks when
Speaker 3: we say it. We get it. Who does not want
Speaker 3: to predict the future? It's an awesome superpower. DARPA is
Speaker 3: working on it around the clock. But the issue is
Speaker 3: you could argue psychological civilization as groups and individuals tend
Speaker 3: to prize prediction retroactively. You like to remember the stuff
Speaker 3: that one way or another did come true, and your
Speaker 3: brain is heavily incentivized to kind of ignore the other
Speaker 3: incorrect attempts at prediction. So like, if you wake up
Speaker 3: one day and you say it's going to be a
Speaker 3: bad day, the first car I see outside of my
Speaker 3: house is going to be a Honda Odyssey. You're not
Speaker 3: going to remember all the times it wasn't. You're going
Speaker 3: to remember the one time you open the door you
Speaker 3: saw Honda Odyssey and you went, it's like men for you.
Speaker 4: I just imagine you walk intrough the neighborhood and there's
Speaker 4: like a Honda Odyssey just peaks out from behind a
Speaker 4: bush and then sort of dutch back. Then you know,
Speaker 4: it just follows you. Man, I get it. Here is
Speaker 4: real psychology. Yeah, and thank you for your support. Of
Speaker 4: course that way here, But that like doesn't make sense.
Speaker 4: It's a bad analogy on my part, But it seems
Speaker 4: like we don't care for it. When a prophecy is
Speaker 4: only partially true, it's an all or nothing endeavor. So
Speaker 4: if everybody agrees, hey, this one people prediction is a stretch,
Speaker 4: it's incorrect, then it couldn't mean Malachi had a typo
Speaker 4: on that one line and got ninety nine percent of
Speaker 4: everything else dead on and calls everything into question. So
Speaker 4: it is crucial. We're heavily incentivized to believe the entire thing,
Speaker 4: each and every prediction is somehow on the money, and
Speaker 4: we just have to interpret what Malachi is writing correctly. Oh,
Speaker 4: and the Church has not officially co signed this prophecy.
Speaker 4: They're not formally endorsed it. They haven't called it heretical.
Speaker 4: You're not going to get in trouble for mentioning it
Speaker 4: if you're a cardinal, but they haven't formally championed it.
Speaker 4: And medical meaning a form of heresy, Yeah, yeah, against
Speaker 4: the church.
Speaker 3: You're not going to stay t Yeah, you won't get
Speaker 3: in trouble for bringing it up in meetings. But I
Speaker 3: don't know it. Also another just a forensic aspect of it.
Speaker 3: If this is the biggest thing that happened to mal
Speaker 3: in his life, why don't his contemporaries know much about it?
Speaker 3: Why don't they mention it the people who are around
Speaker 3: at the same time? Right? Was it kept top secret
Speaker 3: until after his death? Did did God provide this deep insight,
Speaker 3: this cheat coat, this game genie to the future of
Speaker 3: the church and then say at the very end, oh,
Speaker 3: by the way, don't tell anyone. And he's like, what
Speaker 3: really good? And he's like, yeah, not till like.
Speaker 2: And make make sure somebody else writes it in their book,
Speaker 2: not you. Somebody else is gonna like take this stuff
Speaker 2: and then just put in their book.
Speaker 3: Well, God, can I can I at least give like
Speaker 3: specific names and dates? Now get weird with it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, what was the name of the book that this
Speaker 2: showed up in?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're talking off air for a second. It's important
Speaker 3: to note this wasn't published on its own. It is
Speaker 3: published as part of Arnold Wyons work Linkedum Vitae. Yes,
Speaker 3: so it's a smaller part of a larger work.
Speaker 2: It's so weird, we'll just throw it in there.
Speaker 3: Guys, can it be a whole book? God?
Speaker 2: Absolutely No, it's a pamphlett.
Speaker 3: Putting in we're putting in this other book. I'm sorry
Speaker 3: I shouted because I'm supposed to whisper. I'm a small
Speaker 3: still voice. So anyway, not to not to have too
Speaker 3: much fun with God, but hopefully God enjoys these joke
Speaker 3: every now and then. Look, especially because we're talking about
Speaker 3: some serious high stakes here. Maybe we pause for a
Speaker 3: word from our sponsors. Then we talked through some of
Speaker 3: the theories and speculations surrounding this, not all of which relies
Speaker 3: on the concept of divinity. All right, we're back. This
Speaker 3: one is for the skeptics in the crowd. All right,
Speaker 3: we're just gonna be fair talking with every So, if
Speaker 3: you were listening to this episode tonight and you kind
Speaker 3: of want to throw away the whole prophecy concept, just
Speaker 3: throw it out as humbug and hogwash, ask yourself this,
Speaker 3: what if cardinals electing popes post fifteen ninety five were
Speaker 3: in some way or another influenced simply by knowing about
Speaker 3: the list?
Speaker 4: Oh well, guys, I was going to bring up a
Speaker 4: LinkedIn in the chat.
Speaker 3: There.
Speaker 4: There is a pretty fascinating article on the National Catholic
Speaker 4: Register Nine Things you need to Know about how Cardinals
Speaker 4: actually vote in conclaves, And there's just some very interesting
Speaker 4: little details, one of which it definitely gets into what
Speaker 4: you're talking about them, one of which I thought I
Speaker 4: had to mention, why is the first ballot significant and
Speaker 4: why will it likely never yield.
Speaker 3: An actual result?
Speaker 4: Also, why if the cardinals are electing their choice, their
Speaker 4: number one choice, do their votes change over time? You
Speaker 4: know as this this cycle, you know, kind of rinses
Speaker 4: and repeats.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's about building consensus, right as much as possible.
Speaker 2: Here's like, hold on, yeah, the what do they call
Speaker 2: the I said, the name of them, the guys that
Speaker 2: come through and they tally the scrutineers.
Speaker 3: The scrutineers.
Speaker 2: The scrutineers don't sit there and announce how many votes
Speaker 2: each person got because they burn all the ballots, right, right,
Speaker 2: So everybody just kind of throws their name out there
Speaker 2: in that first ballot, and then they the scrutiniers come
Speaker 2: back and say, no, we don't have to, but.
Speaker 3: They do talk to each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. I just say, yeah.
Speaker 4: The first point here, why is the first ballot significant?
Speaker 4: It says it is the first time that the cardinals
Speaker 4: get the.
Speaker 3: Lay of the land in a concrete way.
Speaker 4: Up to this point, they have had discussions amongst themselves
Speaker 4: about who would be a good pope, and they have
Speaker 4: done some informal nose counting to get a sense of
Speaker 4: how much support there may be for different candidates. Now, however,
Speaker 4: they get actual vote counts and attach numbers to how
Speaker 4: much support different candidates have. All This is reflected in
Speaker 4: that film as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'd be like forty something for Wilke acshally Yep,
Speaker 3: that's in the.
Speaker 2: Film conclim Okay, I didn't understand. They announced the vote.
Speaker 3: But they don't announce whose person voted.
Speaker 4: But the stats are very important because at the end
Speaker 4: of the day, you want a winner, winner.
Speaker 3: As soon as possible, right, less chaos rain. But also
Speaker 3: they can't say who voted for who because then, you know,
Speaker 3: imagine how much of a jerk you sound like if
Speaker 3: they say Wilkerson votes for Wilkerson. That's right, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. Well, that's not a good look.
Speaker 4: But I'm not mistaken in Conclave as well. Sorry to
Speaker 4: keep harping on. That really is quite good. There is
Speaker 4: a way, by process of elimination where you kind of.
Speaker 3: Do start to realize who's voting for who one hundred percent. Yeah,
Speaker 3: especially after repeated votes, right and repeated conversations. Now, going
Speaker 3: back to what we're saying about the psychology the point
Speaker 3: we're saying earlier about skeptics in the out, I'm really
Speaker 3: interested in this idea that cardinals, especially post fifteen ninety five,
Speaker 3: may have been influenced by knowing about the list. By knowing,
Speaker 3: you know, according to this prophecy, whoever comes out of
Speaker 3: this conclave as the pope is somehow referenced by this
Speaker 3: you know, this phrase about olives or what have you.
Speaker 3: So what if you are one of the front runners
Speaker 3: to become the next pope? Right, and everybody in the
Speaker 3: conclave and in these conversations looks around and says, dang,
Speaker 3: this guy does have that whole solar eclipse thing going on.
Speaker 3: I guess I should vote for him. We also don't
Speaker 3: know whether cardinals say, dang, it would be cool. I
Speaker 3: do like that, but I don't know if you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're allowed to.
Speaker 2: The vote comes through forty four votes for Peter Bolin.
Speaker 3: Dang, So this is I mean, this is this is
Speaker 3: completely possible though, right guys. And if it is possible,
Speaker 3: that would mean the prophecy kind of works, It kind
Speaker 3: of functions at least in that it becomes self fulfilling.
Speaker 3: So in that case, to believe in the prophecy, we
Speaker 3: don't really need to believe in divine intervention and guidance
Speaker 3: so much as psychology and like good old PR, good
Speaker 3: old public relations.
Speaker 2: You know what, I mean, yeah, it is all about
Speaker 2: it is all about the politics. After the vote ends
Speaker 2: and everybody goes back, they go back to Saint Martha's house,
Speaker 2: that's where all the cardinals stay in this time. And
Speaker 2: then they will, you know, make their way back over
Speaker 2: to the Systeine Chapel. Door locks and they get started again.
Speaker 2: It just makes you wonder what little combos happened at
Speaker 2: Saint Martha's.
Speaker 3: What did they talk about at lunch? You know what
Speaker 3: I mean? Also, what's on the menu. I'm so curious
Speaker 3: about that. So, speaking of skeptics, let's reframe our perspective
Speaker 3: just a little bit. If we imagine this prophecy to
Speaker 3: not just be incorrect, but what if we imagine it
Speaker 3: as a purposeful falsehood, a known forgery. Then our question becomes,
Speaker 3: why would you do you bother writing it in the
Speaker 3: first place? And this is where we go to some
Speaker 3: pretty interesting theories from folks who are themselves inside the church.
Speaker 4: So the leading theory goes all the way back to
Speaker 4: a character we've already mentioned.
Speaker 3: A character is a human person, Arnold weon? Why on? Perhaps?
Speaker 3: So let's go to M. J.
Speaker 4: O'Brien, who wrote an historical and critical account of the
Speaker 4: so called prophecy of Saints Malachi regarding the succession of popes.
Speaker 4: As you can imagine the eighteen eighty Yes, highly descriptive,
Speaker 4: yet somehow highly vague and a little shady, you know,
Speaker 4: little snark coded.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, let's hear about this so called prophecy. Yes
Speaker 2: do it?
Speaker 3: So called is like never a compliment in English?
Speaker 2: Never it is.
Speaker 3: It's like you, who do you think you are? Mister?
Speaker 3: We'd like to award the so called pulitzer to blah
Speaker 3: blah blah exactly you. So these so called writers.
Speaker 2: I hear a Baptist minister in Atlanta, it's like this
Speaker 2: so called prophecy.
Speaker 3: Ye tender is the implication? Right?
Speaker 4: So O'Brien himself a pre just maybe where he's coming from.
Speaker 4: On this notes that the verses why I'm published, as
Speaker 4: well as the interpretations, correspond quite closely to an earlier
Speaker 4: historical account of the popes written by a friar by
Speaker 4: the name of Onofrio Ponvino in fifteen fifty seven called
Speaker 4: Epitome Romanorum Pontificum or A Brief History of the Roman Pontiffs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic because these two works correspond
Speaker 3: so closely that the prophecy why On discovers and publishes it,
Speaker 3: contains some of the same exact errors as an Offrio's work,
Speaker 3: which happened earlier. So does God just want everybody to
Speaker 3: keep making the same factual errors.
Speaker 2: No, maybe it's the same vision and had the same issues.
Speaker 2: It was just given out to a couple different people. Maybe, well,
Speaker 2: you know know, ster domis yea also.
Speaker 3: Apparently all right, I'm sure he did.
Speaker 2: Look well, I don't know exactly because I can't confirm it.
Speaker 2: I'm reading it in things like Economic Times and the
Speaker 2: New York Post.
Speaker 3: But no one has anyone hit us with the specific patray.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm trying to find them, but it looks like
Speaker 2: it's pulled directly from the prophecy of the Pope's writing. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll give you a quote that's in a New York
Speaker 2: Post article. It says Nostra Damus wrote, quote, through the
Speaker 2: death of a very old pontiff, a Roman of good
Speaker 2: age will be elected of him. It will be said
Speaker 2: that he weakens his see as in the Holy See,
Speaker 2: but long will he sit and in biting activity. And
Speaker 2: then this is the quote that I think is directly
Speaker 2: from the other one. And but again they are saying
Speaker 2: this is no Stra Damis writing. But I couldn't find
Speaker 2: the original Nostradamus text, but it says quote that Noster
Speaker 2: Damis said, in the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church,
Speaker 2: there will sit Pete the Roman sounds exactly like the
Speaker 2: prophecy already, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations?
Speaker 2: When these things are finished, the city of seven Hills
Speaker 2: will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people.
Speaker 3: Pas, yes, sure, his sheep.
Speaker 2: I think that's from the from the prophecy, like I
Speaker 2: think that's a direct pull quote from the Prophecy, not
Speaker 2: from Nostra Damis and misattributed earlier.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of repeted little lines. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: it's flavor. It's ten to ten exact quote we had.
Speaker 2: So it feels to me like it's a misattribution. But
Speaker 2: if you're online just looking for this stuff, you may
Speaker 2: run across that and think, oh wait, Nostra Damas said that.
Speaker 4: There's some slight variations, right the pasture the flock. Isn't
Speaker 4: that a little different or is it complete?
Speaker 3: One to one? It's no, you're right, it's it's a
Speaker 3: little bit different. Let's real quick, folks, we have to
Speaker 3: say this. Nostra Damas was born in fifteen oh three
Speaker 3: died around fifteen sixty six, so before the Prophecy was published.
Speaker 3: He also did not write in English.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3: And did Malachi neither did wild yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: This is allegedly according to The New York Post from
Speaker 2: a fifteen fifty five publication titled Le Profities.
Speaker 3: Ah. Okay, yes, that makes sense because no Stra Damis
Speaker 3: was French, so that part checks out.
Speaker 2: Boom, all right, to solve it.
Speaker 3: So okay, wait, though, if this is the case, if
Speaker 3: Malachi doesn't write this, or if Malachi or why on
Speaker 3: maybe pulls from Nostradamus and from other extant works at
Speaker 3: the time, If he was cribbing from existing sources, why
Speaker 3: would he bother? Was it just like a boring afternoon
Speaker 3: at the monastery? They didn't have UFC you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, they didn't have cable? So or is there
Speaker 3: a conspiracy at play? This goes back to the point
Speaker 3: about self fulfilling prophecy and pr Yes, right, this is
Speaker 3: where we see you know, politics or politics wherever you go.
Speaker 3: So how could politics play a role in prophecy or
Speaker 3: how could switch it? How could prophecy play a role
Speaker 3: in politics? Oh?
Speaker 4: I mean, gosh, it's just the religion in and of
Speaker 4: itself is such a powerful tool of control. Not sure
Speaker 4: if you guys have seen heretic the recent kind of
Speaker 4: what do you call it?
Speaker 3: Elevated horror?
Speaker 4: Sure, And it's this idea of how belief and religion
Speaker 4: in general are ultimately tools of control. And that's where
Speaker 4: the Catholic Church and their political cachet I think, really
Speaker 4: comes into play here. But prophecy and politics have often
Speaker 4: been hand in hand.
Speaker 2: It's all belief, man, You think that's air your breathing neo?
Speaker 3: Did you know Puritans were against forks? They hated forks
Speaker 3: because they were too like pitchfork. They felt they were ungodly.
Speaker 3: Who were hanging with aj Bahamas Jacobs and he told
Speaker 3: us about Puritans being against forks.
Speaker 2: Or it removes you from your food.
Speaker 3: That's true. So you know, it's how do they feel
Speaker 3: about shovel? How do they feel about soup? You know
Speaker 3: what I mean? Oh?
Speaker 2: God?
Speaker 3: Anyway, over the centuries, particularly with one guy, you'll see
Speaker 3: quoted often or refer too often a seventeenth century priest
Speaker 3: named Louis Moreri. People have argued the prophecy came about
Speaker 3: not as divine guidance, but instead as a cynical internal
Speaker 3: move for power. Louis and others like him believe that
Speaker 3: the conspiracy takes place during the conclave to replace Pope
Speaker 3: Urban seventh in fifteen ninety and that there was a
Speaker 3: faction of people who are supporting a guy named Cardinal
Speaker 3: Girolamo Samonchelli, and they started spreading the word about the
Speaker 3: prophecy to help make it look like he was chosen
Speaker 3: by God to be the next pope. But this has
Speaker 3: issues just to be fair, because why on publish this
Speaker 3: in fifteen ninety five. So for this conspiracy to be real,
Speaker 3: it would have to mean that Arnold had already known
Speaker 3: the like it had already been lost and rediscovered, and
Speaker 3: everyone inside the church was aware of it before it
Speaker 3: was officially published. That timeline is, as Gollum would say, tricksy.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, So let's just say, for the sake of argument,
Speaker 4: that it was known internally, in which case it does
Speaker 4: make sense that someone might have looked to the prophecy,
Speaker 4: even if formally unacknowledged, as you put it so succinctly,
Speaker 4: Ben in your notes here, and you know, see whether
Speaker 4: or not it supported their particular political cause or their agenda,
Speaker 4: or how they feel that their constituents are being served. Right,
Speaker 4: So politics, at the end of the day, are politics,
Speaker 4: however sacred or profane.
Speaker 2: It's the prophecy and the archives, the archives, find my
Speaker 2: precious find my secret archives.
Speaker 3: Question, quick question. I'm a cardinal, yes, yeah, a big
Speaker 3: fan of your prophecies and stuff. My question is how
Speaker 3: can I make this about me? And see?
Speaker 2: So all right, nobody there is a Vatican Secret Archives
Speaker 2: that could contain Saint Malachi's original writings of this prophecy
Speaker 2: that were then found and included in this other book.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, But it's also in addition
Speaker 3: to that, the Vatican Secret Archives. Check out our episode
Speaker 3: and our video on that secret doesn't quite mean for
Speaker 3: the Vatican what secret means for us for us outsiders.
Speaker 2: Well, you got to know what's in there.
Speaker 3: You got to know exactly what you're asking for. You
Speaker 3: can't go in. It's not target shopping with vibes. You
Speaker 3: can't go in and say give me something more, you know,
Speaker 3: like give me something sick on witches or like church schisms,
Speaker 3: nanti popes, they'll you'll have to go in and say
Speaker 3: I need specifically this title and as by this person.
Speaker 2: It is interesting, though, I have what if somebody did
Speaker 2: know about Malachi and just ask for something writings of Malachi? Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you could theoretically go in there and look for that.
Speaker 3: And people have tried, you know what I mean. But also,
Speaker 3: the Vatican doesn't really have what we would call foya request.
Speaker 2: The lexus and nexus thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Freedom of Information Act is not a not a thing.
Speaker 3: So in any case, whatever we feel about this conspiracy theory,
Speaker 3: the prophecypr did not work. The cardinal in question samon Celli.
Speaker 3: He loses the election. The second Conclave of fifteen ninety
Speaker 3: sees a guy named Gregory elected to replace Pope Urban
Speaker 3: the seventh, and maybe that's where we leave it. We
Speaker 3: don't know who will become the next pope. As we
Speaker 3: record here on Monday, April twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: The conclave is set to begin on May seventh, twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five, So.
Speaker 2: Very theoretically today.
Speaker 3: Right if this publishes on time and still look, here's
Speaker 3: the thing. It's no question that we all live in frightening,
Speaker 3: chaotic time, so of course people want safety, security, predictability.
Speaker 3: Whether or not you personally believe in this prophecy, other prophecies,
Speaker 3: or the concept of prophecy in general, you can't really
Speaker 3: blame people for wanting pattern in order to the universe
Speaker 3: because the alternative, like our pal Dan Harmon always says,
Speaker 3: is the alternative is there's no one at the wheel,
Speaker 3: and that's more frightening than almost any conspiracy out there,
Speaker 3: not even Jesus. I mean, it depends on how you feel.
Speaker 2: So wait, because maybe maybe you can't be over eighty
Speaker 2: as a cardinal to vote because you're just ready for
Speaker 2: the end times.
Speaker 3: You're just saying, maybe you're too quick for the trigger.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just like, you know what, Just go ahead
Speaker 2: and bring in the bad guy, whoever it is.
Speaker 3: I have my time. Yeah, I'm purposely voting for an
Speaker 3: anti pope.
Speaker 2: I'm done. I'm God.
Speaker 3: Oh that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 4: Though, Could there potentially within this system be like a
Speaker 4: dark horse kind of agent of chaos?
Speaker 3: Yes, And there can be situations where people seem cardinals
Speaker 3: are at loggerheads for one reason, or another. Yet the
Speaker 3: stability and sanctity of the church is ever the priority.
Speaker 3: So the concept is that eventually people will come together
Speaker 3: and make the correct choice. They'll do what is godly immoral.
Speaker 3: But before we call this humbug and hogwash again, guys,
Speaker 3: out of the nine front runners set to succeed Pope
Speaker 3: Francis right now on April twenty eighth, three of them
Speaker 3: are named Peter.
Speaker 2: It's too real us coming out coming out from the
Speaker 2: other side. Guys, I'm here in whispers right now that
Speaker 2: a lot of the more conservative church leaders are looking
Speaker 2: at this guy, Cardinal Robert Sarrah of Guinea, that they
Speaker 2: want and he would be the first black pope right right.
Speaker 3: And there's a there's also a guy, I want to say,
Speaker 3: a Filipino cardinal in the broad Yes, yeah, it would.
Speaker 2: It would be amazing if we saw like a full
Speaker 2: on change to the face of the Catholic Church like
Speaker 2: it does. It doesn't matter what prophecies are out there.
Speaker 2: That would be just cool as heck.
Speaker 3: Yeah. But to do that, he'd have to again beat
Speaker 3: Peter Urdo. He'd have to beat Uh. Let's see, where
Speaker 3: are the other Peters? Uh, I don't know if Pietro counts.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it does.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so h then of course Peter code will
Speaker 3: Apia Turksen. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it all depends on are the cardinals voting with
Speaker 2: the prophecy on purpose.
Speaker 3: Or do they reject it as so many other members
Speaker 3: of the church have they believe it's it's hogwashed themselves.
Speaker 3: I don't know this makes you think, folks. We hope
Speaker 3: we've done. We hope we've been fair. We have had
Speaker 3: a little bit of good hearted levity, but it is,
Speaker 3: you know, it's a time of great tragedy for Catholics
Speaker 3: across the planet. We want to hear your thoughts, Catholic
Speaker 3: or non Catholic alike, both about the prophecy of the
Speaker 3: popes and about prophecy in general. So find us online,
Speaker 3: give us a call, drop us a good old fashioned email. Oh,
Speaker 3: by all means please do.
Speaker 4: You can find us at the handle of conspiracy Stuff,
Speaker 4: where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.
Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, get.
Speaker 4: In all the pope talk, the conclave chat there among
Speaker 4: that group of a.
Speaker 3: Lovely conspiracy realists.
Speaker 4: You can also find us that handle on x FKA,
Speaker 4: Twitter and on YouTube with video content. Galora for your
Speaker 4: perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, where conspiracy stuff
Speaker 4: show and there's more.
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. When you call in, it is a
Speaker 2: voicemail system. You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname,
Speaker 2: and say within the message if we can use your
Speaker 2: name and message on the air, call us, tell us
Speaker 2: who you think is going to be the next pope,
Speaker 2: or just call us for any reason whatsoever. If you
Speaker 2: don't like using your phone, why not instead send us
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void
Speaker 3: writes back, as a matter of fact, I'm gidding, I
Speaker 3: can see it.
Speaker 2: I can see it.
Speaker 3: The fog rolls in the Viking will write to us,
Speaker 3: what are we talking about? What did we just predict?
Speaker 3: There's one way to find out.
Speaker 2: Maybe he's the new pope?
Speaker 3: What do we just predict? There's one way to find out.
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