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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. But riddle me this,

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Speaker 3: friends and neighbors, who's not here? If you guess Pope Francis,

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Speaker 3: you are correct? Ouch damn rip the Pope. Yes. Pope

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Speaker 3: Francis passed away on April twenty first, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: The official cause for the Vatican is a and cardiac

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Speaker 3: arrest after you know, known continuing complications with double pneumonia

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Speaker 3: a respiratory tract infection. These can be very dangerous things,

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Speaker 3: especially for people who are getting up in years. He

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Speaker 3: had a life well lived. He passed at the age

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Speaker 3: of eighty eight, and he had been you know, like

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Speaker 3: we said, he had been struggling for some time leading

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Speaker 3: up to his passage. And I don't know, guys, we

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Speaker 3: talked about this off air. We mentioned this in a

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Speaker 3: Strange News segment a while back, or pretty recently actually,

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Speaker 3: And I think it's fair to say that although we

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Speaker 3: are not ourselves practicing Catholics, we do acknowledge the global

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Speaker 3: grief felt by billions of people in the wake of

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Speaker 3: the pope's death. Well, he was like a meaningful pope too.

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Speaker 4: I was talking to my friend Harry, a friend of

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Speaker 4: the show who's visiting me, and I was like, this

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Speaker 4: is the good pope, right, this is the one that

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Speaker 4: I think even average folks seemed to know about and acknowledge.

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Speaker 4: For his somewhat progressive ideas around many things relating to Catholicism,

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Speaker 4: did very important work in rectifying or at the very

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Speaker 4: least addressing some of the horrible cases of abuse who

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Speaker 4: folks have suffered under the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, social activists as well for sure.

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Speaker 2: And now, if you're listening to this on the day

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Speaker 2: it comes out, in the Vatican, within the Sistine Chapel,

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Speaker 2: all the cardinals that are eligible have gathered up. Today

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Speaker 2: they begin the quest to make a new pope.

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Speaker 3: This a questered quest. The conclave begins on May seventh.

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Speaker 3: We are recording this on Monday, April twenty eighth. We were,

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Speaker 3: you know, we had a conversation off air folks about

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Speaker 3: timing of this, whether we should wait for the new

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Speaker 3: pope to be officially chosen until we get the you know,

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Speaker 3: the signals of smoke from the Vatican, which is the

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Speaker 3: traditional way of announcing the election of a new pope

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Speaker 3: with that new pope smell sure, sure, And what we

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Speaker 3: wanted to do instead was to respond to a lot

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Speaker 3: of correspondence we've received with questions, commentary, and interpretations about

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Speaker 3: what this this passage means for the world ahead. And

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Speaker 3: one of the strangest related concepts that comes back into

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Speaker 3: the news anytime a new pope must be elected is

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Speaker 3: something called the prophecy of Saint Malachi, also known as

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Speaker 3: the prophecy of the Popes.

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Speaker 4: And we're going to get into what exactly that means

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Speaker 4: and consists of. Right after a quick word from a sponsor, here.

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Speaker 3: Are the facts, all right. There are a lot of

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Speaker 3: saints in Catholicism. There are a lot of formally recognized saints,

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Speaker 3: right canonized, and then there are a lot of what

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Speaker 3: we call folk saints, which is a result of centuries

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Speaker 3: of religious syncretism. Right, and this guy, Saint Malachi is

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Speaker 3: an official Catholic saint. I've got it here in the notes.

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Speaker 3: His real baptismal name is kind of hard to pronounce.

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Speaker 3: We know that he was born in ten ninety four

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Speaker 3: in Northern Ireland, but a lot of his early life

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Speaker 3: has lost to history. He's, perhaps in Catholicism, best known

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Speaker 3: as the first native born Irish saint. Does anyone want

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Speaker 3: to tackle his baptismal name or do we just want

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Speaker 3: to spell it?

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Speaker 2: Spell?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Okay, I'm with you there, Matt. He is baptized

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Speaker 3: as m a l mhao dhog space ua space morgaar

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Speaker 3: r gai r Right there. You say about that, that's

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Speaker 3: how we're going to say. Okay, cool, that's how we're

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Speaker 3: going to say it. I don't we don't want to

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Speaker 3: be disrespectful. Is Gaelic the word? How would you pronounce it?

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Speaker 3: How would you pronounce mal malma dog? That's pretty good.

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Speaker 3: I don't know is this Gaelic?

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Speaker 2: Though?

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Speaker 3: It has to be. It's a lot of contents and uhs,

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Speaker 3: we're going to call it Malick. Okay, fair enough. We

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Speaker 3: know he didn't have as so many children. Uh then

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Speaker 3: and now I've experienced. He didn't have the best of childhoods.

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Speaker 3: His father passed away. His father was a teacher, and

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Speaker 3: his father passed away when Malachi was only seven years old.

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Speaker 3: And then later when his mother passes away, he gets

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Speaker 3: into a mentorship follower position with a holy recluse, living

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Speaker 3: near a cathedral, living in a cell like anchorte, like

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Speaker 3: a hermit. Whoa okay.

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Speaker 4: So he became a priest in eleven nineteen and rose

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Speaker 4: up through the ranks to become a bishop in eleven

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Speaker 4: thirty two, and then he passed away in eleven forty eight.

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Speaker 4: In his life, throughout his life he was known for

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Speaker 4: this idea of restoring discipline with some liberals around that

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Speaker 4: whatever that means, it's a little vague to the area

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Speaker 4: that was under his care. People felt at the time

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Speaker 4: the church had grown a bit lax, had sort of

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Speaker 4: lost its way a bit, perhaps was not adjusting or

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Speaker 4: reacting to some of the chaos of the time, and

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Speaker 4: he was sort of looked at as bringing the church

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Speaker 4: up to date to reinstill kind of that sense of

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Speaker 4: spiritual discipline into a world gone awry.

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Speaker 3: And his later biographer, Bernard of Clairvaux, would write an

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Speaker 3: entire book about this man, because that's what biographers do.

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Speaker 3: He calls this work the Life of Saint Malachi or

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Speaker 3: just Life of Saint Malachi, and in this he describes

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Speaker 3: pretty much what you're talking about. No, he says, Malachi

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Speaker 3: was known for his obedience to God, his discipline to

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Speaker 3: the church and doctrine, as well as his humility and meekness.

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Speaker 3: So in modern parlance, he made church cool again. He

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Speaker 3: made the sacrament cool again. He was renewing belief at

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Speaker 3: a time when many people in the area were questioning

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Speaker 3: the importance and the authority of the church, not just

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Speaker 3: as a secular institution, but as a spiritual belief system.

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Speaker 3: And we have to remember, you know, there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of other religions still around at the time in

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Speaker 3: that area.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and everybody's buying to get new followers to

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Speaker 2: you know, to all of the different religions. It's very important.

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Speaker 2: You need more human beings to go out and do

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Speaker 2: the work for the church, slash the gathering, slash whatever

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Speaker 2: it is, got.

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Speaker 3: To grow flock maybe, yeah, because we have to remember

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Speaker 3: it's still the case now in modern evenings, but back then,

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Speaker 3: spiritual power and approval of a spiritual system was pretty

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Speaker 3: much the same thing as acquiring political power. Oh gosh, yes,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Do you think the Catholic Church is as influential today

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Speaker 4: as it was in the past, or as it eroded

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Speaker 4: a bit in terms of its political capital.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting. That reminds me very much of the recent funeral,

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Speaker 3: which is part of why we held off on recording

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Speaker 3: this episode of the Blue Suit. Oh the Yeah, the

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Speaker 3: current US president were a suit that was apparently too

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Speaker 3: light in color for some dress codes. But I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: more about just the entirety of the world leaders, many

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Speaker 3: people who would ordinarily not be in the same room together.

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Speaker 3: I bet you saw it too, Matt, the anti drone

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Speaker 3: technology in play. Did you see those? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: It's such a security risk to have all as.

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Speaker 2: Me, Oh yeah, in my mind, guys, I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: formulate this thought. I don't think the Catholic Church has

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Speaker 2: as much power as it maybe once did in the

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Speaker 2: minds of individuals. To me, and this may be fully wrong,

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Speaker 2: but to me, the spiritual nature of someone was a

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Speaker 2: big part of their identity. I'm not saying that it's

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Speaker 2: not that way anymore. But maybe it was stronger, a

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Speaker 2: stronger piece of individual identity for WHI. And now the

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Speaker 2: power that the Catholic Church wields the Roman Empire as

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Speaker 2: a religion is monetary to me, just because of the

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Speaker 2: amount of money that has been flowing through and growing

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Speaker 2: right over all of these centuries.

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Speaker 3: Shout out to the Black Pope, right.

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Speaker 2: And all the anti popes that I didn't even know about.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and shout out to of course our friends

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Speaker 3: at the Vatican Bank, Opus day and night, Tamalta, the Jasuitz. Look,

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Speaker 3: I think to that question, what's really interesting about it

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Speaker 3: is that you could argue, yes, there is growing secularism,

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Speaker 3: especially in Europe and the Mediterranean overall, just across time. However,

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Speaker 3: the reach of the Catholic Church it's global. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're talking Latin America, we're talking the Philippines when like

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Speaker 3: the biggest Asiatic country or Asian country that practices Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: So maybe the influence has evolved or shifted, but it's

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Speaker 3: still a huge deal, whether we're talking spiritually or for

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Speaker 3: the atheist in the crowd. Simply geopolitically and financially, the

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Speaker 3: pope is one of the most important figures in the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely, guys. Before we get into the

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Speaker 2: next section here, which is really what this episode's all about,

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Speaker 2: can we just briefly talk about the process, just explain

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Speaker 2: the process of selecting a pope, because I think to me,

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Speaker 2: that's what's so astonishing about the potential feat of predicting

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Speaker 2: how this whole process would actually work out and then

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Speaker 2: doing that over and over and over and over again

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Speaker 2: in a single book, like we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: in the next section. So if we don't mind, just

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Speaker 2: I'd like to talk about what the actual conclave is

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Speaker 2: and how it functions, because it is pretty mind blowing.

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Speaker 4: Well, and speaking of the predictability of it, I would

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Speaker 4: be interested in keeping an eye on betting markets around

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Speaker 4: the next trope is going to be, because you know

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Speaker 4: they're out there. But I also will mention again I

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Speaker 4: think we said it in our previous conversation, maybe it

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Speaker 4: was on Strange News about the film Conclave and how

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Speaker 4: the downloads of it are through the roof, because a

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Speaker 4: lot of people want to know about this process, and

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Speaker 4: the timing couldn't be better for the creators of that

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Speaker 4: excellent film, and it does show in great detail how

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Speaker 4: the process works.

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Speaker 3: So let's go through that now. I actually started reading

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Speaker 3: that novel too that the film based on it, and

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Speaker 3: I was really impressed with the author, Robert Harris. So

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Speaker 3: far I haven't finished it, but he put boots on

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Speaker 3: the grounds. Yeah, and he went to the Vatican and

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Speaker 3: they walked him through the process. So it is there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of Conclave is of course a film, right,

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Speaker 3: not a documentary, but it does have a lot of

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Speaker 3: factual insights into the real life process of the cardinals

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Speaker 3: and the conclict.

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Speaker 4: And the perspective is need because you kind of feel

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Speaker 4: like a fly on the wall. You're trapped in there

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Speaker 4: with them, So there is that. It's certainly an experiential film.

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Speaker 4: I highly recommend it.

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Speaker 3: So let's spend a few minutes on the process.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So let's say Pope passes away, as just happened,

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Speaker 2: and we need to choose a new pope. You have

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Speaker 2: to gather together all of the cardinals that exist, the

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Speaker 2: Catholic cardinals that are officially a part of the church.

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Speaker 2: There are seventy one countries on the planet that have

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Speaker 2: cardinals residing within them. You have to get all of

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Speaker 2: those cardinals by the way, there are one hundred and

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Speaker 2: thirty five eligible cardinals right now on the planet.

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Speaker 3: Out of two hundred and fifty two total yes.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why they're only one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 2: five eligible cardinals is because you have to be under

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Speaker 2: the age of eighty to go and be a part

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Speaker 2: of this conclave process.

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Speaker 3: So let's pause there. Just think about the math of

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Speaker 3: the two hundred and fifty two. One hundred and thirty

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Speaker 3: five are young enough to vote.

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Speaker 2: Yes, which just tells you about maybe cardinals are just old.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Maybe.

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Speaker 3: I mean it is a position of high authority, it is,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's not a right now.

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Speaker 3: I mean historically this wasn't always the case, but right

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Speaker 3: now you do have to kind of earn that position. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can't just be like a cardinal nepo baby, a

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Speaker 3: car nepo. But well in to not anymore, right, But

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Speaker 3: also the issue is maybe just to be fair travel concerns,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, for people are quite elderly for.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and you know, who knows, if who knows what

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Speaker 2: you're going to do with your vote if you're almost

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Speaker 2: out of here already. I don't know the idea. I

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Speaker 2: think I think the idea is you make a decision

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Speaker 2: that a slightly younger person, even if you're still seventy nine,

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Speaker 2: you make a decision based on what's going to be

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Speaker 2: best for the church and or for humanity or whatever

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Speaker 2: that decision is based on.

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Speaker 4: But there are still constituencies, right, like, there are people

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Speaker 4: that these individual popes from their parts of the world represent,

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Speaker 4: and perhaps there might be difference maybe politically.

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Speaker 2: That's yeahdred percent. Yeah, thought is everybody is going to

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Speaker 2: do what you know, follow tells them, Yeah, what what

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Speaker 2: the vision is?

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Speaker 4: What the Yeah, I guess, I guess it's just to

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Speaker 4: say that this process, though incredibly you know, rooted in

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Speaker 4: sacred tradition, is not immune from the trappings of politics.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk about it. We'll talk about that in depth,

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Speaker 3: I think. But to your point, Matt, part of the

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Speaker 3: calculation not just safety of travel. Sure, that is at

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Speaker 3: best a tertiary concern. If we're being honest, it's holding

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Speaker 3: to tradition like you were saying, no voting in absentia,

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Speaker 3: And then I would argue, also, what I think we're

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Speaker 3: getting at here, Matt, is the idea that to vote

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Speaker 3: your conscience and God's will, you need to be young

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Speaker 3: enough to realize that it will still affect you. You

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Speaker 3: can't just vote and be out. There will be consequences

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Speaker 3: and ramifications within your lifetime for your part of the

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Speaker 3: church and the church overall.

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Speaker 2: And yet it is a secret ballot, right, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: everybody who can vote hangs out, hangs out, gets locked

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Speaker 2: inside the Systeine.

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Speaker 3: Chapel like a sequestered jury. Yep.

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Speaker 2: They write down in secret the name of their chosen

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Speaker 2: candidate and then buy rank because the cardinals are ranked. Right,

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Speaker 2: you go up and you put your vote piece of

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Speaker 2: paper into a sacramental urn. It's like a ceremonial urn.

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Speaker 2: Then there are three cardinals who are the Scrutineers. That's

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Speaker 2: their name. They tally all the ballots. Once they've counted them,

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Speaker 2: they burn all of them ballots, and so nobody knows

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Speaker 2: but the three scrutineers. And then if there is a

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Speaker 2: two thirds majority candidate chosen out of that vote, then

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Speaker 2: they light the white smoke and the Sistine Chapel and

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Speaker 2: everybody knows there's a new pope. If not, they hold

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Speaker 2: the vote again and again and.

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Speaker 3: Again again again, and it can go on for a while.

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Speaker 2: Oh dude, so Okay, so it goes on. There are

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Speaker 2: two votes in the morning and two votes in the afternoon, right,

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Speaker 2: black smoke every time. If no pope is chosen, then

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Speaker 2: they'll do that for three days straight. Then if no

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Speaker 2: pope has been chosen, they take a day off, and

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Speaker 2: then they go back and they do it again.

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Speaker 3: Off is really for networking politicking, Yes, in one's case,

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Speaker 3: that's what it's That's what it's for. And also, you

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Speaker 3: know this is going to be this is going to

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Speaker 3: be familiar to so many people, the Catholic and non

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Speaker 3: Catholic alike. There is a lot of old tradition here,

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Speaker 3: and some of it can frankly seem a little bit

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Speaker 3: extra in the parlance of our time, or perhaps a

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Speaker 3: little bit maybe silly or officious. But I would argue

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Speaker 3: as a non Catholic that it is incredibly important to

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Speaker 3: remember there's a reason they did. They're still doing stuff

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Speaker 3: this way, like the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment.

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Speaker 3: We're getting so far away from the point of this show.

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Speaker 3: But the reason you seal off the Pope's apartment after

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Speaker 3: his death, we didn't even talk about all the death

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Speaker 3: rituals is because people used to like rob the guy's apartment,

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Speaker 3: rob the papal apartment for reliqueries and objects of power.

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Speaker 3: They used to rob the graves, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: That's why there's a triple lined cat. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just just to the point of being about

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Speaker 2: the show. I think all this stuff is important because

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Speaker 2: this is all this Imagine that process that we just

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Speaker 2: described and then the stakes that Ben just described there,

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Speaker 2: Like once a pope is out of the office, imagine

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Speaker 2: somebody having some kind of vision at some point and

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Speaker 2: writing down this vision where he saw every single pope

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Speaker 2: that's going to come into power for hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 2: of years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if it was him, and this is.

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Speaker 2: Our if it was real, if any of us, if

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Speaker 2: this is.

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Speaker 3: Our segue back to Malachi, So we know just a

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Speaker 3: very little bit about him now today, for I would

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Speaker 3: say lay Catholic and non Catholics alike. Malachi is not

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Speaker 3: known for his living work in the Church. He's instead

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Speaker 3: known for a cryptic piece of writing we alluded to

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Speaker 3: at the top, generally called the Prophecy of the Popes.

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Speaker 3: Technically it's called Prophecy of Saint Archbishop Malachi Canning the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Pontiffs, the Bishop of Rome, the popes. It's weird

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Speaker 3: because it sounds like it's a book, but it's eleven

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Speaker 3: short sort of single line paragraphs and then two additional paragraphs.

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Speaker 3: There are multiple lines, and like you were saying, Matt,

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Speaker 3: it claims to be a divinely inspired guide to predict

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Speaker 3: the secession of one hundred and twelve total popes, starting

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Speaker 3: with Pope Celestine the second in eleven forty three, right

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Speaker 3: during the life of Saint Malachi, and then it goes

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Speaker 3: onward and at the very end there's a guy named

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Speaker 3: Petrus Romanus who is supposed to emerge as a final

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Speaker 3: figure after the one hundred and twelfth pope. So, according

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Speaker 3: to the tradition we're saying, Malachi is summoned to Rome

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Speaker 3: by the Pope at the time he sees the famous

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Speaker 3: seven Hills, and when he sees them for the first

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Speaker 3: time in his life, he falls to his knees. He

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Speaker 3: has this vision. It details every single poop who will

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Speaker 3: reign in the Catholic Church with that ending point a

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Speaker 3: guy named Petris Robantus. And I suggest we share an

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Speaker 3: English translation of what they say about Petrus because it's

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Speaker 3: pretty heavy.

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Speaker 4: So here's a quote in the final persecution of the

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Speaker 4: Holy Roman Church. There will reign Peter the Roman, who

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Speaker 4: will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the

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Speaker 4: city of Seven Hills will be destroyed, and the Dreadful

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Speaker 4: Judge will judge the people. That's a that's a bit much.

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Speaker 3: Real end of days, you know, Oh boy, the return

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Speaker 3: of the anti Christ. Now have we ticked off any

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Speaker 3: of these boxes? Guys? Are we going to go through it?

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Speaker 3: Just how it's perceived? Okay, okay?

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Speaker 2: Hold on, is the Dreadful Judge? Is that God Christ?

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Speaker 2: Or is it God? It's God?

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Speaker 3: I think, how does one interpret? You know?

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Speaker 2: I mean, he doesn't specify, but but if it's going

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Speaker 2: by the Bible, right it's God, then it is like

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Speaker 2: the dude is coming. Because in Revelation, the only the

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Speaker 2: only being in existence that knows when the end of

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Speaker 2: times occurs, the Judgment Day occurs, is God himself. Not

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Speaker 2: even Jesus is aware.

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Speaker 3: No, Jesus can only intercede yes on behalf of humanity

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Speaker 3: and the world. I mean, these are bold claims, and

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Speaker 3: we're talking about interpretation already. Those who believe the prophecy

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Speaker 3: is correct have serious and worriessome questions about what happens now.

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Speaker 3: The final pope is going to be the one hundred

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Speaker 3: and twelfth after whom we got this Peter the Robin

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Speaker 3: guy who leads the church through the tribulation period. But

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Speaker 3: things go terribly wrong. This is the time of judgment

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Speaker 3: and it may occur within your lifetime if you believe

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Speaker 3: that the one hundred and twelfth Pope was the recently

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Speaker 3: passed Pope Francis. So common interpretations will tell us that

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Speaker 3: Pope Francis is the one hundred and twelfth on Malachi's

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Speaker 3: list or Arnold's spoiler. We'll get to it.

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Speaker 4: So he would be pre Peter the Roman, Yeah, the

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Speaker 4: penultimate okay, so.

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Speaker 2: But some people say he was Peter the Roman.

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Speaker 3: And Peter the Roman again. Tea leaves interpretation. How does

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Speaker 3: this help you address the world? What happens next? Is

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Speaker 3: the world prepared? What do we know about this purported

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Speaker 3: prophecy and its claims? And what do we make of

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Speaker 3: the interpretations. Let's pause for a word from our sponsors

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Speaker 3: and then dive in. Here's where it gets crazy. All right,

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Speaker 3: Before we answer any of those questions, not to tease

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Speaker 3: everyone too much, we have to acknowledge that there's a

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Speaker 3: bag of badger's here because the prophecy is attributed to

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Speaker 3: Saint Malachi, said to be written in eleven thirty nine,

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Speaker 3: but it's first published much later. Okay, it's lost at

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Speaker 3: some point, and then it's rediscovered, and at some point

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Speaker 3: after its rediscovery it is published in fifteen ninety five

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Speaker 3: by a Benedictine monk named Arnold Wyld.

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Speaker 2: So almost four hundred and what fifty years later, I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's huh.

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Speaker 3: The papal predictions up to fifteen ninety are super precise.

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Speaker 3: What up to when he publishes it, they're super odd point,

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Speaker 3: like bullseye. Every time it gets a little less precise,

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Speaker 3: you could argue increasingly less precise after fifteen ninety. This

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Speaker 3: would lead believers to say, well, maybe it's an imperfect

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Speaker 3: interpretation of a perfect prophecy, and skeptics would say imperfect

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Speaker 3: is just a fancier way of saying guessing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, I want to just do a quick thought experiment.

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Speaker 2: Imagine you are Saint Malachi right now, you look out

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Speaker 2: at those seven hills, you have this vision. Do you

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Speaker 2: have just some paper to start writing down in great

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Speaker 2: detail exactly what you saw, perhaps like gold tablets, but

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Speaker 2: like one hundred and twelve iterations of what you're seeing

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Speaker 2: in the moment.

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Speaker 3: Do a sketch? Maybe it's a good question. But also

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Speaker 3: one could argue that being like a divine a divine

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Speaker 3: revelation like this is encoded differently. Right, what if it's

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Speaker 3: burned into your brain?

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Speaker 4: How could we possibly comprehend what that must be like?

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Speaker 4: It would be a whole different set of equipment that's

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Speaker 4: being used.

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Speaker 2: Right, But it's like a movie that's playing, and you're

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Speaker 2: able to see enough of it to write down like

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Speaker 2: very specific cryptic things.

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Speaker 3: It's a moment that exists outside of time. You could

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Speaker 3: say that you continually return to. It's always that moment

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Speaker 3: there are you know, Because we're dealing with divinity and spirituality,

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Speaker 3: the primary assumption is that the regular rules to some

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Speaker 3: degree do not apply.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So that's how.

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Speaker 3: We would explain it. Yeah, if we're taking the side

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Speaker 3: of the true believers. Scholars, true believers among them went

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Speaker 3: back and examined the prophecies at length lay before this

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Speaker 3: hit the most recent news cycle, and they said, okay,

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Speaker 3: hold on, so we know this doesn't begin with the

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Speaker 3: very first popes. It starts in eleven thirty nine, and

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Speaker 3: it's right about that prediction, and it's right about every

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Speaker 3: other prediction up to fifteen ninety, depending on how you

431
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Speaker 3: interpret it. It's more specific than everything post fifteen ninety.

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Speaker 4: And yet after fifteen ninety, as prophecies often lead to,

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Speaker 4: there becomes more vagary, which opens it up to even

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Speaker 4: further interpretation and reinterpretation and potentially politicization. You know, the

435
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 4: idea of turning this prophecy towards a particular end depending

436
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 4: on who's doing the interpreting.

437
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: Right, Imagine going from abing someone very specifically, like this

438
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 3: is Josiah Williams Wilkerson, and this will be the pope

439
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 3: this time, and then as you get further into the future,

440
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 3: it's like there's a guy associated with olives.

441
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: You gotta believe me, Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it sounds.

442
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: Like a specific example.

443
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: Yes, you are a very recent one, at least in

444
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: for our history, but it feels as though it becomes

445
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 2: horoscopes for a potential human being, right, and like you

446
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: could pull anything from that concept of olives apply it

447
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: to the person who was elected, right, yeah, yeah, I

448
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: mean it could be anything in their life.

449
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: I like I think that's important to I also like

450
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 3: the analogy of a rorshack, right, it's a psychological rorshack painting, right,

451
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: what do you see? What does this word mean in

452
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 3: this context? And that's the interpreters and champions of this work.

453
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: They say they will, they will argue the prophecy does

454
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: contain specific predictions that cannot be denied, including the more

455
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 3: recent predictions or what we think of. So maybe it's

456
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 3: helpful to check out a few examples here. Let's go

457
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: to the olive thing. Pope Benedict, the one hundred and

458
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: eleventh Pope, the one hundred and eleventh Pope. Malachi predicts

459
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 3: one one one will be called gloria olive, meaning glory

460
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 3: to the olive. Okay, that's not the same thing as Benedict.

461
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 2: But wait, but wait, well, yeah, the Saints of Benedict,

462
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: they are directly associated with olives.

463
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: In fact, yeah, known as the Olivitants o Livitants. The

464
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: Order of Saint Benedict. Yeah they have they have another name.

465
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: And so for some researchers, you say, Pope Benedict came

466
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: from this orders associated with it, therefore is associated with olives. Therefore,

467
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 3: this is bringing glory to the olive. Therefore this prophecy

468
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: is correct. You can see a second example. We'll just

469
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: do like two more. One that I think really stood

470
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 3: out a lot to all of us is the idea

471
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 3: of de la borre Solis from the labor of the Sun.

472
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 4: So it's possible that this maybe a reference to Pope

473
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 4: John Paul the second, who was born during a solar eclipse. Again,

474
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 4: was this a coincidence or divine providence? It depends on

475
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 4: who you ask, Right, one person's coincidence to your point,

476
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: Ben here in the outline, is another person's just absolute,

477
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 4: unimpeachable evidence. So we've got another example in Peregrinus Apostolicus,

478
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: and that is often linked with Pope Paul the sixth,

479
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 4: who was quite the world traveler who traveled extensively throughout

480
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 4: his career.

481
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, can we.

482
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: Do a couple more, because sure, as many as you like.

483
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: I want to show the difference between the what was

484
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: the fifteen ninety fifteen ninety so pre fifteen ninety five,

485
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 2: you've got Pope John the twenty second and the motto.

486
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: The translation of the motto to English is from the

487
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: bony shoemaker and he was the son of a dang shoemaker. Okay,

488
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 2: that's pretty good, but that's in thirteen sixteen to thirteen

489
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: thirty four. That's when John the twenty second was there.

490
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: But then you go to Pope Urban or Urbane. I

491
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: think it's Urban the eighth. This is sixteen twenty three

492
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: to sixteen forty four, So that's after the period of accuracy. Right,

493
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: it translates to Lily and rose and guess what's on

494
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: the coat of arms for this person? Lily's and roses

495
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: something that's on the coat of arms versus the son

496
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: of a shoemaker. I don't know how you judge either

497
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: of those two things as being like super accurate or

498
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: not meaningful. Right, it's tough for me.

499
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: Again, there's no one, especially fifteen ninety, even pre fifteen ninety,

500
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: there's no one saying this guy's name is specifically this

501
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: he's this tall, his include, Yeah, he's got a weird

502
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: mole and you can find you know, it's on his armpit.

503
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: Just ask him. That's the Pope. This is that's a

504
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: weird conversation to have with his holiness. But still, you know,

505
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: with these examples, we can see how, especially in the

506
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: increasingly vague descriptions of more recent popes. Interpreters can get

507
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 3: accused of grasping a cognitive straws, but there's a point

508
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: we have to hit. It's super important. In all fairness,

509
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 3: they don't have much to go on from the original prophecy,

510
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: not a ton of bio details right, specific towns and

511
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: so on. You might have to use as little as

512
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: a single three word phrase to find a solid connection.

513
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: But on the other side of this, there are a

514
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: lot of things to connect too, because popes are some

515
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 3: of the most famous, well documented people in their society

516
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: right regardless of the time in which you're living, we

517
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: know a lot about their lives, especially the more modern ones.

518
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: So if you are looking for a positive interpretation to

519
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 3: justify the prophecy to yourself as accurate, you have a

520
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 3: lot more to pull from because these guys are obsessively

521
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: researched and surveilled, you know what I mean. You could

522
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: argue that it is going to be devilishly easy to

523
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: call the next pope Peter the Roman just because we

524
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: will know everything about the next pope and we can

525
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 3: be like, oh, Peter, it's an acronym, or you know,

526
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: this guy went to Rome one time.

527
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 4: These prophecies are always so fun, especially when they don't

528
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 4: come true, and then you have to see people kind

529
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: of scrambling to explain why you know, I no, no, no, no,

530
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: it was because this didn't quite happen.

531
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 3: We missed this mistage. Just wait for it, wait for it.

532
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: It's totally going to happen.

533
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: It's coming, guys. I think this is a good point

534
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: to bring this up to. It's something that I did

535
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: not know at all. Anti popes.

536
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: Yes, this is first for me. I'm gonna be completely surprised. Guys.

537
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 4: I don't know about the anti pope, but I can

538
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 4: maybe conjecture.

539
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: But well, Noel, here, here you go. If you hear

540
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: the word anti pope, what conjures in your mind Antichrist? Okay,

541
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: that's I hear that too, especially associated with the Catholic Church. Right,

542
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: Anti in front of something, it's not good. But what

543
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: if it's an anti pope.

544
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 3: It's it's oh, the church is term.

545
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why.

546
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 3: It's purposely meant to cast dispersion and sound double plus

547
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: on good. Right. I can't remember which church that's from,

548
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: but I think that's here. Yeah, the antipo So people

549
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: have often vied for this position, especially before the rise

550
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: of secular thought as a widely accepted thing. Everybody wanted

551
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: to be the pope. Now, yes, like you're king for God,

552
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. The other monarchs are only

553
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: worldly monarchs, so they got to jump when you say jump,

554
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 3: So why wouldn't you want to be the pope? That

555
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: means this tells us a little bit about why the

556
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 3: conclave has these very strict traditionalist rules. There were a

557
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: lot of people who said, yeah, I'm the pope.

558
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but people who actually gained some power and some

559
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: following who would then do things that the pope does,

560
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: but in a different part of the world usually. So

561
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: imagine there's a pope in you know, the Holy Roman

562
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: Catholic Church there in Rome. But then there's another pope

563
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: in Germany who says, well, I'm actually the pope and

564
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: is practicing as the pope. And this is guys. I'm

565
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: reading that graphic novel The Secret History, and that's the

566
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: one that goes through basically history with a whole other

567
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: version of what history is. Right, But in there there's

568
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 2: a whole section about popes and anti popes, and it

569
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: was all political as a way to at least with

570
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: it's depicted in this stores there as a way to

571
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: put the Roman Empire, what's remaining of the Roman Empire

572
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 2: represented by the Catholic Church, versus like in this case,

573
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: like Germany right in the Germanic forces. It's interesting that

574
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 2: that's a real thing that was happening throughout history. There's

575
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 2: a huge list of them that the Catholic Church agrees, like, yeah,

576
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: these are all anti popes.

577
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: A lot of people want the position and there can

578
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 3: only be one. The pope is highlander rules for sure,

579
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: and this this is the you know, I'm glad we're

580
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: bringing this up because this is an issue that can

581
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: cause schism in the church because if if you have, say,

582
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 3: two different people houlding themselves the pope at the same time,

583
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 3: and they both get a sizable number of followers and

584
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 3: a sizeable amount of geopolitical support, then this could destroy

585
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 3: the church, you know, it can set things into chaos well.

586
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: And it's also a discrepancy within this prophecy because there

587
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: are anti popes included within the list here that's given

588
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: the allegedly given to us by Saint Malachi. And that's

589
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: where the interpretation gets off even further because some of

590
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: the antipopes. I guess it's unsure within people who are

591
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 2: translating it now and trying to interpret it now whether

592
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: or not a certain person included in that list is

593
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: an antipope or an actual pope. And then if it

594
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: is an antipope, does that throw off the number of

595
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: popes of like where we actually are in the list?

596
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 3: More importantly, it also gives us more room for interpretation

597
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: and favorable interpretation. So if this one guy doesn't work out,

598
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: what about this other gay Ian? It's really an antipope.

599
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: So this is This is one of the things that

600
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: we return to often on this show in our strange

601
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 3: mission here, whether you're talking Nostradamus or Edgar Casey doomsday prophecies,

602
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: of which abound throughout history. The one thing we returned

603
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: to is prophecy is tricky. We're not being jerks when

604
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: we say it. We get it. Who does not want

605
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: to predict the future? It's an awesome superpower. DARPA is

606
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: working on it around the clock. But the issue is

607
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: you could argue psychological civilization as groups and individuals tend

608
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: to prize prediction retroactively. You like to remember the stuff

609
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 3: that one way or another did come true, and your

610
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: brain is heavily incentivized to kind of ignore the other

611
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 3: incorrect attempts at prediction. So like, if you wake up

612
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: one day and you say it's going to be a

613
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: bad day, the first car I see outside of my

614
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 3: house is going to be a Honda Odyssey. You're not

615
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 3: going to remember all the times it wasn't. You're going

616
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 3: to remember the one time you open the door you

617
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 3: saw Honda Odyssey and you went, it's like men for you.

618
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 4: I just imagine you walk intrough the neighborhood and there's

619
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 4: like a Honda Odyssey just peaks out from behind a

620
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 4: bush and then sort of dutch back. Then you know,

621
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 4: it just follows you. Man, I get it. Here is

622
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 4: real psychology. Yeah, and thank you for your support. Of

623
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 4: course that way here, But that like doesn't make sense.

624
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 4: It's a bad analogy on my part, But it seems

625
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 4: like we don't care for it. When a prophecy is

626
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 4: only partially true, it's an all or nothing endeavor. So

627
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: if everybody agrees, hey, this one people prediction is a stretch,

628
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 4: it's incorrect, then it couldn't mean Malachi had a typo

629
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 4: on that one line and got ninety nine percent of

630
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 4: everything else dead on and calls everything into question. So

631
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 4: it is crucial. We're heavily incentivized to believe the entire thing,

632
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 4: each and every prediction is somehow on the money, and

633
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 4: we just have to interpret what Malachi is writing correctly. Oh,

634
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 4: and the Church has not officially co signed this prophecy.

635
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 4: They're not formally endorsed it. They haven't called it heretical.

636
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 4: You're not going to get in trouble for mentioning it

637
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 4: if you're a cardinal, but they haven't formally championed it.

638
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 4: And medical meaning a form of heresy, Yeah, yeah, against

639
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 4: the church.

640
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 3: You're not going to stay t Yeah, you won't get

641
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: in trouble for bringing it up in meetings. But I

642
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: don't know it. Also another just a forensic aspect of it.

643
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 3: If this is the biggest thing that happened to mal

644
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 3: in his life, why don't his contemporaries know much about it?

645
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 3: Why don't they mention it the people who are around

646
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 3: at the same time? Right? Was it kept top secret

647
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 3: until after his death? Did did God provide this deep insight,

648
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 3: this cheat coat, this game genie to the future of

649
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 3: the church and then say at the very end, oh,

650
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: by the way, don't tell anyone. And he's like, what

651
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 3: really good? And he's like, yeah, not till like.

652
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 2: And make make sure somebody else writes it in their book,

653
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: not you. Somebody else is gonna like take this stuff

654
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: and then just put in their book.

655
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 3: Well, God, can I can I at least give like

656
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: specific names and dates? Now get weird with it?

657
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: Yeah?

658
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: Well, what was the name of the book that this

659
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: showed up in?

660
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're talking off air for a second. It's important

661
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 3: to note this wasn't published on its own. It is

662
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 3: published as part of Arnold Wyons work Linkedum Vitae. Yes,

663
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: so it's a smaller part of a larger work.

664
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: It's so weird, we'll just throw it in there.

665
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 3: Guys, can it be a whole book? God?

666
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely No, it's a pamphlett.

667
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 3: Putting in we're putting in this other book. I'm sorry

668
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: I shouted because I'm supposed to whisper. I'm a small

669
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: still voice. So anyway, not to not to have too

670
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 3: much fun with God, but hopefully God enjoys these joke

671
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: every now and then. Look, especially because we're talking about

672
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: some serious high stakes here. Maybe we pause for a

673
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 3: word from our sponsors. Then we talked through some of

674
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: the theories and speculations surrounding this, not all of which relies

675
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: on the concept of divinity. All right, we're back. This

676
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 3: one is for the skeptics in the crowd. All right,

677
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 3: we're just gonna be fair talking with every So, if

678
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: you were listening to this episode tonight and you kind

679
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 3: of want to throw away the whole prophecy concept, just

680
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 3: throw it out as humbug and hogwash, ask yourself this,

681
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 3: what if cardinals electing popes post fifteen ninety five were

682
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: in some way or another influenced simply by knowing about

683
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: the list?

684
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 4: Oh well, guys, I was going to bring up a

685
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 4: LinkedIn in the chat.

686
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: There.

687
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: There is a pretty fascinating article on the National Catholic

688
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 4: Register Nine Things you need to Know about how Cardinals

689
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 4: actually vote in conclaves, And there's just some very interesting

690
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 4: little details, one of which it definitely gets into what

691
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 4: you're talking about them, one of which I thought I

692
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 4: had to mention, why is the first ballot significant and

693
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 4: why will it likely never yield.

694
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 3: An actual result?

695
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: Also, why if the cardinals are electing their choice, their

696
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 4: number one choice, do their votes change over time? You

697
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 4: know as this this cycle, you know, kind of rinses

698
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 4: and repeats.

699
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's about building consensus, right as much as possible.

700
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 2: Here's like, hold on, yeah, the what do they call

701
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: the I said, the name of them, the guys that

702
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: come through and they tally the scrutineers.

703
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 3: The scrutineers.

704
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: The scrutineers don't sit there and announce how many votes

705
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 2: each person got because they burn all the ballots, right, right,

706
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: So everybody just kind of throws their name out there

707
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: in that first ballot, and then they the scrutiniers come

708
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: back and say, no, we don't have to, but.

709
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 3: They do talk to each other.

710
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. I just say, yeah.

711
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 4: The first point here, why is the first ballot significant?

712
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 4: It says it is the first time that the cardinals

713
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 4: get the.

714
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 3: Lay of the land in a concrete way.

715
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 4: Up to this point, they have had discussions amongst themselves

716
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 4: about who would be a good pope, and they have

717
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 4: done some informal nose counting to get a sense of

718
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 4: how much support there may be for different candidates. Now, however,

719
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 4: they get actual vote counts and attach numbers to how

720
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 4: much support different candidates have. All This is reflected in

721
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 4: that film as well.

722
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'd be like forty something for Wilke acshally Yep,

723
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: that's in the.

724
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: Film conclim Okay, I didn't understand. They announced the vote.

725
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 3: But they don't announce whose person voted.

726
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 4: But the stats are very important because at the end

727
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 4: of the day, you want a winner, winner.

728
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: As soon as possible, right, less chaos rain. But also

729
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: they can't say who voted for who because then, you know,

730
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 3: imagine how much of a jerk you sound like if

731
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 3: they say Wilkerson votes for Wilkerson. That's right, you know

732
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 3: what I mean. Well, that's not a good look.

733
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 4: But I'm not mistaken in Conclave as well. Sorry to

734
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 4: keep harping on. That really is quite good. There is

735
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 4: a way, by process of elimination where you kind of.

736
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: Do start to realize who's voting for who one hundred percent. Yeah,

737
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: especially after repeated votes, right and repeated conversations. Now, going

738
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 3: back to what we're saying about the psychology the point

739
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 3: we're saying earlier about skeptics in the out, I'm really

740
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 3: interested in this idea that cardinals, especially post fifteen ninety five,

741
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: may have been influenced by knowing about the list. By knowing,

742
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: you know, according to this prophecy, whoever comes out of

743
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 3: this conclave as the pope is somehow referenced by this

744
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 3: you know, this phrase about olives or what have you.

745
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 3: So what if you are one of the front runners

746
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 3: to become the next pope? Right, and everybody in the

747
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: conclave and in these conversations looks around and says, dang,

748
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 3: this guy does have that whole solar eclipse thing going on.

749
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 3: I guess I should vote for him. We also don't

750
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 3: know whether cardinals say, dang, it would be cool. I

751
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 3: do like that, but I don't know if you know,

752
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: I don't know if you're allowed to.

753
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: The vote comes through forty four votes for Peter Bolin.

754
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: Dang, So this is I mean, this is this is

755
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: completely possible though, right guys. And if it is possible,

756
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 3: that would mean the prophecy kind of works, It kind

757
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 3: of functions at least in that it becomes self fulfilling.

758
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 3: So in that case, to believe in the prophecy, we

759
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: don't really need to believe in divine intervention and guidance

760
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 3: so much as psychology and like good old PR, good

761
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: old public relations.

762
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: You know what, I mean, yeah, it is all about

763
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: it is all about the politics. After the vote ends

764
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: and everybody goes back, they go back to Saint Martha's house,

765
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: that's where all the cardinals stay in this time. And

766
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 2: then they will, you know, make their way back over

767
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: to the Systeine Chapel. Door locks and they get started again.

768
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: It just makes you wonder what little combos happened at

769
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: Saint Martha's.

770
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: What did they talk about at lunch? You know what

771
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 3: I mean? Also, what's on the menu. I'm so curious

772
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 3: about that. So, speaking of skeptics, let's reframe our perspective

773
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 3: just a little bit. If we imagine this prophecy to

774
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: not just be incorrect, but what if we imagine it

775
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 3: as a purposeful falsehood, a known forgery. Then our question becomes,

776
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 3: why would you do you bother writing it in the

777
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 3: first place? And this is where we go to some

778
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 3: pretty interesting theories from folks who are themselves inside the church.

779
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 4: So the leading theory goes all the way back to

780
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 4: a character we've already mentioned.

781
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 3: A character is a human person, Arnold weon? Why on? Perhaps?

782
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 3: So let's go to M. J.

783
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: O'Brien, who wrote an historical and critical account of the

784
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 4: so called prophecy of Saints Malachi regarding the succession of popes.

785
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 4: As you can imagine the eighteen eighty Yes, highly descriptive,

786
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 4: yet somehow highly vague and a little shady, you know,

787
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 4: little snark coded.

788
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, let's hear about this so called prophecy. Yes

789
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: do it?

790
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: So called is like never a compliment in English?

791
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: Never it is.

792
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: It's like you, who do you think you are? Mister?

793
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 3: We'd like to award the so called pulitzer to blah

794
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 3: blah blah exactly you. So these so called writers.

795
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: I hear a Baptist minister in Atlanta, it's like this

796
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: so called prophecy.

797
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 3: Ye tender is the implication? Right?

798
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 4: So O'Brien himself a pre just maybe where he's coming from.

799
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 4: On this notes that the verses why I'm published, as

800
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 4: well as the interpretations, correspond quite closely to an earlier

801
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 4: historical account of the popes written by a friar by

802
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 4: the name of Onofrio Ponvino in fifteen fifty seven called

803
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 4: Epitome Romanorum Pontificum or A Brief History of the Roman Pontiffs.

804
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic because these two works correspond

805
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 3: so closely that the prophecy why On discovers and publishes it,

806
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 3: contains some of the same exact errors as an Offrio's work,

807
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: which happened earlier. So does God just want everybody to

808
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 3: keep making the same factual errors.

809
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 2: No, maybe it's the same vision and had the same issues.

810
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 2: It was just given out to a couple different people. Maybe, well,

811
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: you know know, ster domis yea also.

812
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 3: Apparently all right, I'm sure he did.

813
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: Look well, I don't know exactly because I can't confirm it.

814
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: I'm reading it in things like Economic Times and the

815
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: New York Post.

816
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 3: But no one has anyone hit us with the specific patray.

817
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'm trying to find them, but it looks like

818
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 2: it's pulled directly from the prophecy of the Pope's writing. Okay,

819
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: I'll give you a quote that's in a New York

820
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: Post article. It says Nostra Damus wrote, quote, through the

821
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 2: death of a very old pontiff, a Roman of good

822
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 2: age will be elected of him. It will be said

823
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 2: that he weakens his see as in the Holy See,

824
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 2: but long will he sit and in biting activity. And

825
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: then this is the quote that I think is directly

826
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 2: from the other one. And but again they are saying

827
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: this is no Stra Damis writing. But I couldn't find

828
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: the original Nostradamus text, but it says quote that Noster

829
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: Damis said, in the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church,

830
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: there will sit Pete the Roman sounds exactly like the

831
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: prophecy already, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations?

832
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: When these things are finished, the city of seven Hills

833
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 2: will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people.

834
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 3: Pas, yes, sure, his sheep.

835
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: I think that's from the from the prophecy, like I

836
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: think that's a direct pull quote from the Prophecy, not

837
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 2: from Nostra Damis and misattributed earlier.

838
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 3: There's a lot of repeted little lines. I mean, you know,

839
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 3: it's flavor. It's ten to ten exact quote we had.

840
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: So it feels to me like it's a misattribution. But

841
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: if you're online just looking for this stuff, you may

842
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: run across that and think, oh wait, Nostra Damas said that.

843
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 4: There's some slight variations, right the pasture the flock. Isn't

844
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 4: that a little different or is it complete?

845
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: One to one? It's no, you're right, it's it's a

846
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 3: little bit different. Let's real quick, folks, we have to

847
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,479
Speaker 3: say this. Nostra Damas was born in fifteen oh three

848
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 3: died around fifteen sixty six, so before the Prophecy was published.

849
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 3: He also did not write in English.

850
00:48:58,239 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

851
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: And did Malachi neither did wild yeah yeah.

852
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: This is allegedly according to The New York Post from

853
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: a fifteen fifty five publication titled Le Profities.

854
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 3: Ah. Okay, yes, that makes sense because no Stra Damis

855
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: was French, so that part checks out.

856
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: Boom, all right, to solve it.

857
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 3: So okay, wait, though, if this is the case, if

858
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 3: Malachi doesn't write this, or if Malachi or why on

859
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: maybe pulls from Nostradamus and from other extant works at

860
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: the time, If he was cribbing from existing sources, why

861
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 3: would he bother? Was it just like a boring afternoon

862
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 3: at the monastery? They didn't have UFC you know what

863
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 3: I mean, they didn't have cable? So or is there

864
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 3: a conspiracy at play? This goes back to the point

865
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 3: about self fulfilling prophecy and pr Yes, right, this is

866
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 3: where we see you know, politics or politics wherever you go.

867
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 3: So how could politics play a role in prophecy or

868
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: how could switch it? How could prophecy play a role

869
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 3: in politics? Oh?

870
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 4: I mean, gosh, it's just the religion in and of

871
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 4: itself is such a powerful tool of control. Not sure

872
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 4: if you guys have seen heretic the recent kind of

873
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 4: what do you call it?

874
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 3: Elevated horror?

875
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 4: Sure, And it's this idea of how belief and religion

876
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 4: in general are ultimately tools of control. And that's where

877
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 4: the Catholic Church and their political cachet I think, really

878
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 4: comes into play here. But prophecy and politics have often

879
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 4: been hand in hand.

880
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: It's all belief, man, You think that's air your breathing neo?

881
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 3: Did you know Puritans were against forks? They hated forks

882
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 3: because they were too like pitchfork. They felt they were ungodly.

883
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 3: Who were hanging with aj Bahamas Jacobs and he told

884
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 3: us about Puritans being against forks.

885
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 2: Or it removes you from your food.

886
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 3: That's true. So you know, it's how do they feel

887
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 3: about shovel? How do they feel about soup? You know

888
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: what I mean? Oh?

889
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 2: God?

890
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 3: Anyway, over the centuries, particularly with one guy, you'll see

891
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: quoted often or refer too often a seventeenth century priest

892
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 3: named Louis Moreri. People have argued the prophecy came about

893
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: not as divine guidance, but instead as a cynical internal

894
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 3: move for power. Louis and others like him believe that

895
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 3: the conspiracy takes place during the conclave to replace Pope

896
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 3: Urban seventh in fifteen ninety and that there was a

897
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: faction of people who are supporting a guy named Cardinal

898
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: Girolamo Samonchelli, and they started spreading the word about the

899
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 3: prophecy to help make it look like he was chosen

900
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 3: by God to be the next pope. But this has

901
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 3: issues just to be fair, because why on publish this

902
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: in fifteen ninety five. So for this conspiracy to be real,

903
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 3: it would have to mean that Arnold had already known

904
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 3: the like it had already been lost and rediscovered, and

905
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: everyone inside the church was aware of it before it

906
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 3: was officially published. That timeline is, as Gollum would say, tricksy.

907
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 4: Oh yes, So let's just say, for the sake of argument,

908
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 4: that it was known internally, in which case it does

909
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 4: make sense that someone might have looked to the prophecy,

910
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 4: even if formally unacknowledged, as you put it so succinctly,

911
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 4: Ben in your notes here, and you know, see whether

912
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 4: or not it supported their particular political cause or their agenda,

913
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 4: or how they feel that their constituents are being served. Right,

914
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 4: So politics, at the end of the day, are politics,

915
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 4: however sacred or profane.

916
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 2: It's the prophecy and the archives, the archives, find my

917
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: precious find my secret archives.

918
00:52:55,400 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 3: Question, quick question. I'm a cardinal, yes, yeah, a big

919
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 3: fan of your prophecies and stuff. My question is how

920
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 3: can I make this about me? And see?

921
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: So all right, nobody there is a Vatican Secret Archives

922
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 2: that could contain Saint Malachi's original writings of this prophecy

923
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: that were then found and included in this other book.

924
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, But it's also in addition

925
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 3: to that, the Vatican Secret Archives. Check out our episode

926
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 3: and our video on that secret doesn't quite mean for

927
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: the Vatican what secret means for us for us outsiders.

928
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: Well, you got to know what's in there.

929
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 3: You got to know exactly what you're asking for. You

930
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 3: can't go in. It's not target shopping with vibes. You

931
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: can't go in and say give me something more, you know,

932
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 3: like give me something sick on witches or like church schisms,

933
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 3: nanti popes, they'll you'll have to go in and say

934
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 3: I need specifically this title and as by this person.

935
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: It is interesting, though, I have what if somebody did

936
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: know about Malachi and just ask for something writings of Malachi? Right, Yeah,

937
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: you could theoretically go in there and look for that.

938
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 3: And people have tried, you know what I mean. But also,

939
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 3: the Vatican doesn't really have what we would call foya request.

940
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: The lexus and nexus thing.

941
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, Freedom of Information Act is not a not a thing.

942
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 3: So in any case, whatever we feel about this conspiracy theory,

943
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 3: the prophecypr did not work. The cardinal in question samon Celli.

944
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,720
Speaker 3: He loses the election. The second Conclave of fifteen ninety

945
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 3: sees a guy named Gregory elected to replace Pope Urban

946
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 3: the seventh, and maybe that's where we leave it. We

947
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: don't know who will become the next pope. As we

948
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 3: record here on Monday, April twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.

949
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 3: The conclave is set to begin on May seventh, twenty

950
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 3: twenty five, So.

951
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: Very theoretically today.

952
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 3: Right if this publishes on time and still look, here's

953
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 3: the thing. It's no question that we all live in frightening,

954
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 3: chaotic time, so of course people want safety, security, predictability.

955
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 3: Whether or not you personally believe in this prophecy, other prophecies,

956
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 3: or the concept of prophecy in general, you can't really

957
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 3: blame people for wanting pattern in order to the universe

958
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 3: because the alternative, like our pal Dan Harmon always says,

959
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 3: is the alternative is there's no one at the wheel,

960
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 3: and that's more frightening than almost any conspiracy out there,

961
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 3: not even Jesus. I mean, it depends on how you feel.

962
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 2: So wait, because maybe maybe you can't be over eighty

963
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: as a cardinal to vote because you're just ready for

964
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:42,240
Speaker 2: the end times.

965
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,800
Speaker 3: You're just saying, maybe you're too quick for the trigger.

966
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just like, you know what, Just go ahead

967
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 2: and bring in the bad guy, whoever it is.

968
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 3: I have my time. Yeah, I'm purposely voting for an

969
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 3: anti pope.

970
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 2: I'm done. I'm God.

971
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 3: Oh that's what I was gonna say.

972
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 4: Though, Could there potentially within this system be like a

973
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 4: dark horse kind of agent of chaos?

974
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 3: Yes, And there can be situations where people seem cardinals

975
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 3: are at loggerheads for one reason, or another. Yet the

976
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 3: stability and sanctity of the church is ever the priority.

977
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 3: So the concept is that eventually people will come together

978
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 3: and make the correct choice. They'll do what is godly immoral.

979
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 3: But before we call this humbug and hogwash again, guys,

980
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 3: out of the nine front runners set to succeed Pope

981
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 3: Francis right now on April twenty eighth, three of them

982
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 3: are named Peter.

983
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: It's too real us coming out coming out from the

984
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 2: other side. Guys, I'm here in whispers right now that

985
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 2: a lot of the more conservative church leaders are looking

986
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 2: at this guy, Cardinal Robert Sarrah of Guinea, that they

987
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: want and he would be the first black pope right right.

988
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 3: And there's a there's also a guy, I want to say,

989
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 3: a Filipino cardinal in the broad Yes, yeah, it would.

990
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: It would be amazing if we saw like a full

991
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 2: on change to the face of the Catholic Church like

992
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 2: it does. It doesn't matter what prophecies are out there.

993
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: That would be just cool as heck.

994
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. But to do that, he'd have to again beat

995
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 3: Peter Urdo. He'd have to beat Uh. Let's see, where

996
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 3: are the other Peters? Uh, I don't know if Pietro counts.

997
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it does.

998
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so h then of course Peter code will

999
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 3: Apia Turksen. Yeah.

1000
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: And it all depends on are the cardinals voting with

1001
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: the prophecy on purpose.

1002
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 3: Or do they reject it as so many other members

1003
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 3: of the church have they believe it's it's hogwashed themselves.

1004
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: I don't know this makes you think, folks. We hope

1005
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 3: we've done. We hope we've been fair. We have had

1006
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 3: a little bit of good hearted levity, but it is,

1007
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 3: you know, it's a time of great tragedy for Catholics

1008
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 3: across the planet. We want to hear your thoughts, Catholic

1009
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 3: or non Catholic alike, both about the prophecy of the

1010
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 3: popes and about prophecy in general. So find us online,

1011
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 3: give us a call, drop us a good old fashioned email. Oh,

1012
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 3: by all means please do.

1013
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 4: You can find us at the handle of conspiracy Stuff,

1014
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 4: where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.

1015
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, get.

1016
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 4: In all the pope talk, the conclave chat there among

1017
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 4: that group of a.

1018
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 3: Lovely conspiracy realists.

1019
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 4: You can also find us that handle on x FKA,

1020
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 4: Twitter and on YouTube with video content. Galora for your

1021
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 4: perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However, where conspiracy stuff

1022
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 4: show and there's more.

1023
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1024
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. When you call in, it is a

1025
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: voicemail system. You've got three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname,

1026
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 2: and say within the message if we can use your

1027
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: name and message on the air, call us, tell us

1028
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 2: who you think is going to be the next pope,

1029
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: or just call us for any reason whatsoever. If you

1030
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: don't like using your phone, why not instead send us

1031
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.

1032
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1033
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void

1034
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 3: writes back, as a matter of fact, I'm gidding, I

1035
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 3: can see it.

1036
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 2: I can see it.

1037
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 3: The fog rolls in the Viking will write to us,

1038
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 3: what are we talking about? What did we just predict?

1039
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 3: There's one way to find out.

1040
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: Maybe he's the new pope?

1041
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 3: What do we just predict? There's one way to find out.

1042
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 3: Join us a step further from the light conspiracy at

1043
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio dot com.

1044
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1045
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1046
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.