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Speaker 1: Taking a Walk.

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Speaker 2: I'm Buz's night and this is the Taking a Walk podcast. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is the show where I talk with musicians, I

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Speaker 2: talk with industry insiders, and I talk to innovators in

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Speaker 2: the music business. And today I'm going to speak with

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Speaker 2: Bill Denk who is trying to make history in the

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Speaker 2: music business with a new platform.

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Speaker 1: He's going to tell us about it's called Go Goods.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you are a musician or if you have

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Speaker 2: a love of musicians and you know they've been getting

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Speaker 2: a raw deal out there in the marketplace, Go Goods

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Speaker 2: is going to help artists make up to five hundred

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Speaker 2: x over streaming. I think I have your attention, don't I.

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Speaker 2: All right, well we'll hear about Go Goods. Here's Bill

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Speaker 2: dank On Taking a Walk.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Bill, thanks us, it's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So what problem is Go Goods solving for the music

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Speaker 2: business and the music communities.

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Speaker 3: Well, as you mentioned up top, you know, we're helping

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Speaker 3: artists make up to five hundred times more than they

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Speaker 3: make with streaming alone, and they can still stream. Our

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Speaker 3: solution is additive. It's not saying we're anti streaming or

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Speaker 3: anything like that, but you know, when it boils down

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Speaker 3: to it. You know, artists used to make money in

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Speaker 3: three ways with their music sales, with their touring, and

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Speaker 3: with their merch and when we think about music sales

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Speaker 3: for artists and personally use rights for buyers, things have

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Speaker 3: changed in the last twenty one years pretty dramatically. And

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Speaker 3: it's happened, I guess so softly is the best word

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Speaker 3: I can say. You know, no one's really noticed what's occurred,

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Speaker 3: and now we're in this situation where Snoop and other

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Speaker 3: artists are vocalized how they feel about streaming, and so

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Speaker 3: it's just kind of this head they had issue. But

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Speaker 3: the challenge is that when I was at Canadian Music

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Speaker 3: Week about a month or two ago, by watched a

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Speaker 3: gentleman from Spotify talking about who their customers were, and

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Speaker 3: he said very clearly that their customers are the people

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Speaker 3: who are paying them, and that's not the artists. So

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Speaker 3: their goal is to do everything they can to please them.

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Speaker 3: And if that means that you get every song in

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Speaker 3: the world for ten bucks a month, that's what they're

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Speaker 3: going to do. And so that's where this is going

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Speaker 3: to divide with the artists as well as with the

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Speaker 3: streaming platforms and other platforms that are out there. So

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Speaker 3: a lot of artists don't know exactly exactly know where

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Speaker 3: to turn.

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Speaker 1: The quote from Sarah McLaughlin is very powerful.

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Speaker 2: It's sad that artists have to write songs to please

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Speaker 2: the streaming service algorithm.

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Speaker 1: Boy, is that profound, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely? I mean the thing is that the artists

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Speaker 3: will typically not and not all artists, but a lot

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Speaker 3: of artists. What they'll do is, you know, they'll want

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Speaker 3: to try and get their hook in under thirty seconds

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Speaker 3: because of the thirty second rule. They'll want to so

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Speaker 3: the people listen longer than thirty seconds. Then they want

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Speaker 3: to shorten their songs so people will listen more often.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, if the idea is how do

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Speaker 3: I survive as an artists, that's one of the ways

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Speaker 3: to survive is you get the hook in so people

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Speaker 3: are going to listen for thirty seconds or more. That

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Speaker 3: means you're going to be paid. I mean, what's happened

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Speaker 3: in streaming has been these two rules. So first of all,

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Speaker 3: you're making three tenths of a penny. You can make

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Speaker 3: it a little bit more with Apple title, but about three

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Speaker 3: tests of a penny, and that's for us. A solemn

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Speaker 3: streams more than thirty seconds, So that's the first rule

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Speaker 3: of thirty second role. If it's ent er twenty nine seconds,

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Speaker 3: the artist doesn't get paid and they lose their place

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Speaker 3: in the algorithm. They won't be surfaced as much. I remember,

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Speaker 3: they're like just in Spotify there are eleven million artists

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Speaker 3: that artists competing against every single day. One hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: tracks are uploaded every single day. So that's the first thing,

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Speaker 3: is the thirty second role. But the second rule is

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Speaker 3: if you think about, well, okay, great, I made it

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Speaker 3: over thirty seconds, I'm going to be pay paid well.

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Speaker 3: Earlier this year, Spotify put in rule number two and

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Speaker 3: that is a thousand plays role. And what that says

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Speaker 3: is if you don't have a thousand plays, even if

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Speaker 3: someone's listened to the entire song, if you don't have

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Speaker 3: a thousand plays in a twelve month window, you don't

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Speaker 3: get paid. So you might have accumulative two thousand plays

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Speaker 3: over a couple of years or so, but if you

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Speaker 3: didn't have a thousand happening within a twelve month window

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Speaker 3: as an artist, you can get paid. And then you

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Speaker 3: know the question becomes how many songs do you have

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Speaker 3: out there that you're not getting paid for? You know,

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Speaker 3: that's been one of the challenges for a lot of artists.

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Speaker 3: And I've heard arguments both ways where people will say that,

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Speaker 3: you know, hey, you know, well people weren't always making

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Speaker 3: a lot of money with albums and so on because

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Speaker 3: they couldn't afford to get the albums in the seventies.

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Speaker 3: Well that's why they had label contracts, and then it

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Speaker 3: was depending on how your deals with the labels. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's so much that goes into all of this, but

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Speaker 3: my interest is helping artists have the ability to be

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Speaker 3: able to make the music they want to make, the

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Speaker 3: music that can change our culture for the better, music

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Speaker 3: that has changed our culture for the better forever. And

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Speaker 3: to go back to Sarah maclachlin and that quote. To me,

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Speaker 3: if artists are pleasing an algorithm rather than you know,

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Speaker 3: allowing what's inside of them to come out and find

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Speaker 3: an audience, the culture won't change for the better. The

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Speaker 3: culture will change to please an algorithm.

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Speaker 2: So how have you tested go goods to see that

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Speaker 2: this really can make a major impact than the music business.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's been a period of three years with

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Speaker 3: this business, from the time that I thought of it

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Speaker 3: until you know, working through what the model would be.

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Speaker 3: Tons of research up front. I prefer, you know, I

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Speaker 3: like to work quickly, but I also like to work

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Speaker 3: methodically and slowly, and to make sure that I'm not

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Speaker 3: just going to rush something out that's not going to work,

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Speaker 3: or I'm going to have missed something. It's almost like Jenga,

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Speaker 3: you know, somebody pulling out the little thing. They're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I didn't see that. So I did everything I could

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Speaker 3: to make sure that I saw all that we could do,

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Speaker 3: all that we needed to do. So as part of this,

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Speaker 3: I had a number of industry folks that came on board,

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Speaker 3: retired industry folks and I say retired, but they moved

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Speaker 3: on to other careers, I should say, and they looked

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Speaker 3: at this and saw the value of what this could

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Speaker 3: provide to not only the artists, but also the labels

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Speaker 3: and actually even the way that our patent structured the DSPs,

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Speaker 3: the streaming services can make money from this too, but

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Speaker 3: not at the cost of the artists. And so we

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Speaker 3: tested this. We started with some artists that was intentional

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Speaker 3: to have artists that had like zero following. In one case,

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Speaker 3: one artist that had he has no streaming presence, and

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Speaker 3: within three weeks he made as much income with us

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Speaker 3: as he would have if he'd had one hundred and

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Speaker 3: eighty thousand streams, and that takes quite a bit for

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Speaker 3: most artists to do. I mean, we had another artist

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Speaker 3: that twenty three followers and she made as much money

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Speaker 3: in three weeks as if she'd have about hunred and

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Speaker 3: fifty thousand streams. And we had an artist with one

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Speaker 3: thousand fans and they actually you made as much in

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Speaker 3: seven hours actually as if you had half line streams.

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Speaker 3: So pretty significant when we look at what this can do.

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Speaker 3: And so once we had that and the minimum viable

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Speaker 3: product done, now it's just really a matter of building

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Speaker 3: to scale up and get ready to release and announce

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Speaker 3: to the world.

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Speaker 2: What other feedback as you've taken this around to folks

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Speaker 2: and taking it into the market have you been hearing.

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Speaker 2: I know there's many elements to go goods. One is

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Speaker 2: certainly the cloud collectible aspect, But talk about the feedback

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Speaker 2: that you're hearing that is getting you even more excited

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Speaker 2: about taking this to market.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's we haven't had artists say no, I

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Speaker 3: should say that when you think about when artists are

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Speaker 3: making money through music, and I'm not just talking about

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Speaker 3: the top I mean when you think about Spotify, the

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Speaker 3: top one percent of artists and Spotify make ninety percent

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Speaker 3: of the income and the other nine nine percent of

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Speaker 3: artists there the ten percent that's left over. And so

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Speaker 3: you know, so a lot of artists have gone on

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Speaker 3: and they've tried to do stuff with vinyl or other things,

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Speaker 3: but the challenge is that there's a lot of costs

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Speaker 3: upfront for them to do that. With us, there's zero costs.

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Speaker 3: And I don't mean this like Daniel X said with

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Speaker 3: Spotify about how there's zero costs on the creativity side,

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Speaker 3: whoever the studio time. There's a zero cost for not

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Speaker 3: charging a penny for the artists to be able to

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Speaker 3: put their music on Go goods on our dsp that

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Speaker 3: we created good tunes to prove the model. And so

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Speaker 3: they're excited about that there's no costs and that they

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Speaker 3: can make money right away. The second thing that they're

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Speaker 3: excited about is for their fans, that the fans will

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Speaker 3: have a collectible. But this isn't like everything we've known

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Speaker 3: about digital music. For the last twenty years. This actually

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Speaker 3: has the same rights that we have with all of

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Speaker 3: our physical music, and that to me is I think

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Speaker 3: a really important point because when we talk about you know,

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Speaker 3: music sales for artists and personal use rights for buyers,

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Speaker 3: if we go back to you know, nineteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 3: kind of the heyday of a vinyl eight bucks for

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Speaker 3: a final album to around thirty five dollars today, there

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Speaker 3: were a set of rights that we had with that

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Speaker 3: album and we still have it today with the ones

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Speaker 3: that we bought. We have the ability to buy it,

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Speaker 3: we can play it, we can collect it, we can

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Speaker 3: resell it, we can gift it at any time, not

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Speaker 3: just when we first fie. We can gift it to

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Speaker 3: somebody if we want to, at anytime, and we can

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Speaker 3: will it. We can leave it to our kids, our family,

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Speaker 3: whoever we may want to. So, I mean that was great.

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Speaker 3: And then the artist would make around five bucks gross

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Speaker 3: profit on it or the rights folder I should say,

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Speaker 3: so if you sell a million albums, you making five

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Speaker 3: million bucks. And talks about that a lot where he says,

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Speaker 3: and I've seen this one clip where I think it

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Speaker 3: was last year that he was speaking about, Hey, you

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Speaker 3: know when I was you know, when I was first

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Speaker 3: coming up, I had albums sell for nine bucks, sell

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Speaker 3: a million, make nine million dollars. How we make money

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Speaker 3: with my streaming. So it's it's confusing on that side

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Speaker 3: for a lot of artists. But when we think about

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Speaker 3: the next format, which was a track, it was now

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Speaker 3: a portable format because you can't play vinyl, can't play

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Speaker 3: your car, and you can't take it for jocks. So

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Speaker 3: we had a track. Well, eight tracks had the same

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Speaker 3: rights that we have with albums. You can buy it,

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Speaker 3: play it, collect it, resell it, gift it, and will it.

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Speaker 3: And then when we go to cassettes, you know, they

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Speaker 3: sold for about ten bucks and you could again buy, play, collect, resell,

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Speaker 3: gift and will and the artists to make around eight bucks,

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Speaker 3: around six bucks with eight track, and then on the

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Speaker 3: CDs it was fourteen bucks for it. You could buy, play, collect, resell,

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Speaker 3: gift and will and so it was consistent. All that

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Speaker 3: happened and all that changed was the format. But what

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Speaker 3: ended up happened. It was twenty one years ago there

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Speaker 3: was this new idea on the heels of napster. Apple

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Speaker 3: came in and Steve Jobs announced that you know, when

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Speaker 3: you know people want to buy their music. We've always bought,

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Speaker 3: They've always bought their music, and talked about the LPs,

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Speaker 3: and that's in the CDs. People want to own their music,

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Speaker 3: he said. And then I believe that is true. And

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Speaker 3: so he said, when you own your music, you have

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Speaker 3: a broad set of personal use rights. And so when

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Speaker 3: we heard those broad set personal use rights, I thought

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Speaker 3: we all thought. I think people they thought music as

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Speaker 3: a download was really that you could buy, play, collect,

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Speaker 3: we sell, gift, and will But the truth is that

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Speaker 3: we lost rights with downloads. You can't collect, you can't

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Speaker 3: we sell, you can't gift, you can't will it. It's

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Speaker 3: actually illegal to try and do those things. So basically,

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Speaker 3: out of those six rights that we had and have

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Speaker 3: with all of our physical goods, we only have two

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Speaker 3: of our downloads, which is we have a license to

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Speaker 3: press play. That's what we bought. Then the last example

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Speaker 3: I mean that I'll give is when you think about streaming,

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Speaker 3: we lost another right, which was the right to buy

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Speaker 3: it and on it, we can only play it. So

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Speaker 3: if you stop paying, you stop playing. Now we get

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Speaker 3: all the music in the world for ten bucks, right,

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Speaker 3: But what that also does is It puts the artists

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Speaker 3: in a position where where they used to make the

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Speaker 3: three revenue streams with their music sales, with their touring,

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Speaker 3: and with their merch. Now they were reduced to just

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Speaker 3: touring and merch and they couldn't use the music to

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Speaker 3: help them get enough money to get to go out

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Speaker 3: on tour and then use the tour that has enough.

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Speaker 3: This is because eighty percent of merchers purchased at tours.

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Speaker 3: So it became this challenge. And that's actually what the

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Speaker 3: artists are telling us. In fact, one when I shared

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Speaker 3: this with an artist just a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 3: and we were on a zoom call and he said,

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Speaker 3: he said, I'm sorry, I was laughing a little bit

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Speaker 3: there during the college so it wasn't laughing at you.

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Speaker 3: I can't believe that this hasn't been done for twenty

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Speaker 3: some years. Why wasn't this done in the beginning. Why

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Speaker 3: didn't we have limited quantities of our digital goods just

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Speaker 3: like we have our physical goods, which is what we

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Speaker 3: do with go goods and good tunes. Why don't we

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Speaker 3: have the ability to resell it? And you know, my

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Speaker 3: belief is the technology really wasn't there the time, and

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Speaker 3: that now it is. But beyond the ability to make

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Speaker 3: more money up front, we also provide something for the

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Speaker 3: consumer that allows them they can buy something and let's

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Speaker 3: say that a year from now they don't want to

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Speaker 3: listen to that album anymore. If they want to, they

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Speaker 3: could resell it. As long as there's a market for it,

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Speaker 3: like there would be for any product, they can sell it.

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Speaker 3: Even if they got a few bucks back less than

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Speaker 3: what they had spent on it, they still got the

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Speaker 3: enjoyment of listening to it. I can't get money back

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Speaker 3: if I stop streaming. They're not going to give me

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Speaker 3: a month back. There's no way I can sell it

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Speaker 3: a stream So from the side of the artists, there's

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Speaker 3: no cost upfront thing like that. They can make dollars

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Speaker 3: instead of pennies. They don't have to wait for people

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Speaker 3: to listen to get paid. And another important thing is,

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Speaker 3: unlike physical goods, we're actually able to track every time

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Speaker 3: it changes ownership, and the artists going to be paid

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Speaker 3: every time that happens again. So when we buy the

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Speaker 3: number one copy, number ten copy, doesn't matter what number

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Speaker 3: it is. If it resells or it gets given to

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Speaker 3: someone else, there's a small fee and we give the

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Speaker 3: line share of that percentage to the artist. And we

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Speaker 3: look at that fee just like if I was going

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Speaker 3: to give you a physical album, I would either have

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Speaker 3: to pay fed x or ups to ship it to you.

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Speaker 3: I'd have to pay for the guests in my car

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Speaker 3: or the electricity in my car to get it to you.

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Speaker 3: There's a cost that's involved. And instead of going to

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Speaker 3: someone outside, we're giving it to the Rice order and

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Speaker 3: giving them an opportunity to share in the wealth, so

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Speaker 3: to speak, especially if they have a great album that

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Speaker 3: goes up in value, so their income.

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Speaker 1: So what are the next steps here for rolling this out? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So the next step so we have two Bag spread

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Speaker 3: that's in Spin magazine. It's actually it was important to

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Speaker 3: us to be part of that because that's their first

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Speaker 3: print issue in fourteen years and that's we think really exciting.

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Speaker 3: And beyond that, we've been forming relationships with organizations like

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Speaker 3: A two AM, the American Association of Independent Music, and

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Speaker 3: with others. We have an opportunity to get to as

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Speaker 3: many artists as we can in the shortest amount of time.

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Speaker 3: Can the world out help them understand what it is

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Speaker 3: that we're doing to help make things different and better

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Speaker 3: for them. But beyond that, there's the part of the

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Speaker 3: streaming service and the DSPs. The way that I've created this,

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Speaker 3: we're bringing everybody who wants to come along and come along,

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Speaker 3: meaning that there's money there for the digital service providers.

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Speaker 3: They can make actually with one sale of one album,

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Speaker 3: they can make us much so that about a third

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Speaker 3: of what they make in a month from from the

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Speaker 3: streaming subscription. So they make around for dollars and sixty

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Speaker 3: cents their subscriptions around ten bucks eleven bucks something like that.

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Speaker 3: That's just from one sale, and they can still have

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Speaker 3: their streaming subscription. Because I don't think people are to

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Speaker 3: go I'm never going to stream again, going to buy

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Speaker 3: my music. I think they're going to do what they've

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Speaker 3: been doing, which is I'm going to collect my music.

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Speaker 3: But people have been doing it with vinyl and with CDs,

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Speaker 3: and I have tons of vinyl. I buy vinyl, love vinyl,

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Speaker 3: will still buy vice. This is an additional opportunity for

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Speaker 3: me to buy something that if my friends want to

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Speaker 3: come to they have to come to my house and

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Speaker 3: see my vinyl collection and they have to take their

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Speaker 3: time to go through it. And that happens but very rarely.

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Speaker 3: With this, my friends actually be able to see the

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Speaker 3: things I care enough to buy, and they can preview

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Speaker 3: the music and that might influence them to buy the music.

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Speaker 3: And so it provides another opportunity for me to engage

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Speaker 3: my friends and a community where the artist doesn't have

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Speaker 3: to feel like it's another social service out there, social

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Speaker 3: media service where they've got to keep up and you

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Speaker 3: know what am I going to do today for this

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Speaker 3: actually really unique twist. The way we've done put in

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Speaker 3: a boring but but I think informational and exciting way

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Speaker 3: for fans to find out, Hey, what are my friends like,

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Speaker 3: what are they listening to? What do they just buy?

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Speaker 3: And anyway, So it's bringing community that's a part of it,

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Speaker 3: and also hopefully bring in some digital service providers out

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Speaker 3: that make some more money and help the artists make

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Speaker 3: more moneys.

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Speaker 1: Want amen to that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Bill Denk, and thank you for loving music

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Speaker 2: and working hard to change.

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Speaker 1: The face of it with go Goods. I appreciate it

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Speaker 1: very much.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a

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Speaker 2: Walk Podcast with Bill Dank Go Goods.

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Speaker 1: Look for it.

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Speaker 2: It's a hit in the marketplace, and we love musicians

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Speaker 2: getting their fair share. Thanks for listening to Taking a Walk.

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Speaker 2: We love being part of the iHeart podcast Network. You

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Speaker 2: could also find us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever

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Speaker 2: you get your podcasts.