1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace now online at crime online 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: dot com and on Sirius x M. Crime Stories with 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace now online at crime online dot com and 4 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: on sirius XMO. To have and to hold till death 5 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: do us part? Or maybe not death. Maybe bigamy with 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: his wife's daughter. Yes, you heard me right. A man 7 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: marries his wife's daughter and then sends the wife photos 8 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: of them he and her daughter in bed together. Let's 9 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: just start with that scenario. You know, isn't it a 10 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: shame they got rid of the death penalty for everything 11 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: but murder because this guy. Okay, I Nancy Grace, this 12 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I'm 13 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: talking about one Christopher I Hartman, age forty four. That's 14 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: old enough to know better. He was married to Shannon Dietrich, 15 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: but then, when the love light dimmed, married her daughter, Kelly. Whoopsie. 16 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: Not only did he marry his wife's daughter, he forgot 17 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: the formality of a thing called divorce. Now, Dave Max, 18 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: syndicated radio host, you and I don't always see I I, 19 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: but I think we can agree on the facts in 20 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: the scenario. Kick it off, start at the get go. 21 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: I don't want you to leave one detail out, not 22 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: one sort of detail. Start at the beginning, Dave mac 23 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: all right, this guy is a bail bondsman, okay, And 24 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: he marries a woman and um they she has a daughter. 25 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: The daughter is in her teens. This guy, as you mentioned, 26 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: is in his forties and old enough to know better. 27 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: Mary's a woman that she thinks everything is just fine, 28 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: and then without divorcing her only a year later, marries 29 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: her eighteen year old daughter. And it wasn't by mistake. 30 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: He didn't get divorced from his wife when he married 31 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: her daughter. He just changed his name and lied on 32 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: legal documents so that he could then marry the daughter 33 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: to whom he is still married. By the way, now 34 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: old on, Dave Mack, the very first fact that you 35 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: thought was important to bring up is that Hoptman is 36 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: a bail bondsman. Let me tell you something that the 37 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: bail bonding offices were about two blocks from the courthouse 38 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: when I was a felony prosecutor for ten years in 39 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: Inner City Atlanta, and of course on my government pay, 40 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: I couldn't afford the parking deck a loss the street 41 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: from the courthouse. I would have to go to the 42 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: one with the chipped up asphalt about eight or nine 43 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: blocks away, dragging all of my stuff with me from trial, 44 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: and I would have to pass bail bondsman after bondsman 45 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: after bondsman, and I actually would spend many an afternoon 46 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: after work sitting in the bail bondsman's office, um waiting 47 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: to hook up with um my best friend who was 48 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: a defense attorney, or my then boyfriend who was now 49 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: my husband. You know, it's kind of like a little 50 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: pit stop. So please don't trash the bail bond industry. 51 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: Okay you said. Now Here's what I'm pointing out is 52 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: that he's a bail bondsman, but he couldn't man he is. 53 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: He spent three two days in jail. He's a bail 54 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: bondsman that could not get himself bailed out. That's that's 55 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: not enough as far as I'm concerned. So by the 56 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: time I investigate it, or could come in from investigating 57 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: one case to meet me at my car as again, again, 58 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: I state was about ten blocks away. I just sit 59 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: there in the bell bondsman's office. That of course, let 60 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: me come in and sit there in wait for Ernest 61 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: to show up for us to go out looking for 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: some witness or to serve subpoenas at night, good times, 63 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: So don't trash the bell bond industry. And I want, 64 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,559 Speaker 1: I don't understand. Also joining me in addition to Dave Max, 65 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: syndicated show host Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologists and 66 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: host of Investigation Discoveries hit show Fatal Vows with Me 67 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: high profile criminal profile or you know her well, Pat Brown. 68 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, please help me with this. Why does 69 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: a man get married his wife is beautiful, okay, Why 70 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: out of all the people to pick in the entire world, 71 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: does he have to marry her daughter, her teen daughter, 72 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: and then since those of them in bed to her, Well, Nancy, 73 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: you sound so incredulous. I mean, I am. We didn't 74 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: gotten making Georgia. It's the classic American love story. You 75 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: get married within a year, you fall for your spouses kid, 76 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: and you go ahead. You don't want to hurt your 77 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: spouses feelings, so you go ahead and marry the kid. Also, 78 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's you mean you have But you know what, Brian, 79 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: I know you don't get this much and investigation Discovery, 80 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: but just just hush for a moment because I can't 81 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: even take it. You're making my teeth heart, Pat Brown, 82 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: have you seen this guy? Have you seen Hartman? I mean, 83 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: he's not all that and a bag of chips. I 84 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: would not totally not leave my husband for this guy 85 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: based on looks alone. Well have you seen it? I 86 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: have seen him. But let's let's let's step back and say, 87 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: you know, yes, we can't face everything on looks because 88 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: sometimes for personality, but you have to really under this guy. 89 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about bail bondsman. Yes, we don't want to 90 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: say pat pat Pat Pat, Pat Pat pat pat. Speaking 91 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: of picking a mate, can we go back to my 92 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: decision to marry David Lynch, my current husband and the 93 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: father of my children. You know what, um? I like 94 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: somebody with smarts and with a good sense of humor, 95 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, And that's what David has. Uh 96 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: God bless him. He picks up with me. But this guy, 97 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,559 Speaker 1: Christopher Hartman, I don't think he has um my sense 98 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: of humor because I don't think the photos of him 99 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: with his wife's daughter in bed is very funny. Wait 100 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: about wait a bitue. Let's go back though. What I'm 101 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: trying to say is this is that First of all, 102 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: we don't know about the woman who was involved with 103 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: him and what her standards were for what she was married. 104 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: What I was trying to say was he has a 105 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: hack of a criminal history along with his bill to 106 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: talk about a thing bad about it, He's got it. 107 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: He's got a criminal. He's got a criminal talk about 108 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: had a really shady pest. Can we talk about his 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,559 Speaker 1: criminal history? I mean Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host 110 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: of Fatal Vows on Investigation Discovery. I mean, doesn't everybody 111 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: run their spouses wrap shade or is it just me? 112 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: You know? Uh? This is actually interesting, Nancy, because there's 113 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: research out there to suggest that when people get married 114 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: in the United States of America, they typically know less 115 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: about each other than when they go into business with somebody. 116 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: So if I'm starting a business with you, uh, and 117 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm an American, I tend to want to know more 118 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: about you than if I am contemplating spending the rest 119 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: of my life with you, having children with you. Uh. 120 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: It's crazy but true. Another thing I think about this 121 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: case is, obviously, uh, there is some strain, to say 122 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: the very least, in the relation ship between this woman 123 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: and her daughter. Uh. Certainly not your typical classic American 124 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: mother daughter relationships. So I think this woman's judgment uh, 125 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: you know what, I feel sorry for her in a 126 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: way for being uh, you know, the victim of the 127 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: bigamy and all that. But I have a feeling, uh, 128 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: there's some pretty significant judgment issues with her. Well wait 129 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: a minute, so she's got a judgment problem. I think 130 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: we all have had judgment problems. Brian Russell, Are you 131 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: trying to turn this around on the woman on the victim, 132 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: the wife? What am I hearing that she had a 133 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: judgment problem? What about him? Well? What about him? I mean, 134 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: he's the one that committed bigamy with the woman's daughter. 135 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: And I look, I'm not dragging the little girl. She's 136 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: a teen she knows nothing. Thank God, nobody's holding me 137 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: accountable for the things I did when I was a teenager. 138 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: So I don't even want to bring the girl into this. 139 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: She's a teenager. You know, she's probably right now at 140 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: you and gum and singing a Taylor Swift song. She's like, 141 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: totally mindless. It's him, He's the one, Brian Russell. Brian, 142 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm a tiny bit ashamed of you. This document's big 143 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: of me, he's having sex with a woman's daughter, and 144 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: you say she's the one with a judgment problem. Well, 145 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: we're but we're making an assumption here that this is 146 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: all very as shocking and upsetting to this woman as 147 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: it is to us. And all I'm suggesting here is 148 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: that what we see on fatal vows is dysfunctionality tends 149 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: to gravitate to its own level and and uh almost 150 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: seek out other dysfunctionality oftentimes. So because he is a 151 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: big amist, uh drug felon and now has four counts 152 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: of weapons charges, she is the one that has a 153 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: judgment issue. Why don't you just go ahead and call 154 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: her hysterical? Throw that in there too, Pat Brown, are 155 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: you hearing this? At least I've got you by my 156 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: side on this back get back. I'm I'm in total 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: agreement with Bryant because here we here's what we got. 158 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: He's psychopathic. There's no question he's a psychopathic criminals scuzz bag. 159 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean, he has so many there's so much evidence 160 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: that he's a scuz bag in so many ways. There 161 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: is no way that you can hook up for this 162 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: guy and not know his scuz bagginess, you know, And 163 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna bring that scuzs bag into your house with 164 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: your teenage daughter. I'm not saying. And that's he said. 165 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: He is the evil dude, but she is kind of Uh. 166 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: She she made a really really bunch of bad choices 167 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: when she brought him into a home and she had 168 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: the choice about his how horrible he was, she she 169 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: just had Yeah, she had to know that, and she 170 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: made a judgment. And then what I tell women, you 171 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: gotta stop thinking, you know, will you always say to 172 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: the man, you know, stop thinking with it, you know 173 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: your male parts, Well, women, stop thinking with your female parts, 174 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: and that that oh he's paying the attention. Oh my god, 175 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: I just have to have some love in my life. 176 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: I just need to have a man. You gotta stop 177 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: thinking that way when you got a teenage girl in 178 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: your house. You can't bring a guy in who's got 179 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: that much of a crap the history and honestly crappy behavior. 180 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: She had to have known an unfortunate thing that when 181 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: she got into it, it got worse than she probably 182 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: ever thought it would be. But you don't put that 183 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: kind of man in your house with your teenage daughter, 184 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: because that's psycho Basically, what are you saying I'm bored 185 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: with you know, hey, I got some better stuff here. 186 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking, Okay, you know what, I'm 187 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: totally totally outnumbered on this, but I don't care. I'm 188 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: gonna go down finding Alan Duke. You're out there somewhere, 189 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: lurking in l A. You're on the other end of 190 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: this wire. And if you do not take my side 191 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: right now, fur is gonna fly, Buddy, fur is gonna fly. 192 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: Hold on, I gotta get some more facts. But while 193 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: I'll give Ellen Duke a moment to compose himself and 194 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: come up with the right answer. Alan Dave Max syndicated 195 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: talk show host. So he doesn't even bother to deny 196 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: it in court, and he plays no contest, which means 197 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: no low contender, which means I don't admit it, and 198 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: I don't ny it. Nancy, here's the other kick tall 199 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: this and I believe it. I'm on your side on this. Okay. 200 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: This guy played the mom and the daughter against one another. 201 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: Then when he got the daughter where he wanted her 202 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: and the you gotta remember teenage girls and their moms 203 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: oftentime become competitive. I've got that, I've my wife, I've 204 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: got teen daughter. I mean, I understand how this guy 205 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: in the middle Dave, Dave, Dave. My daughter Lucy, ten 206 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: years old. She runs the whole house. We're not competing, 207 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: she wins. Everybody may want to go for Indian if 208 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: she goes, I don't want Indian. Mom. It's all, what 209 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: do you want Lucy? Because she'll go somewhere and just 210 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: not eat right or whatever you do, she'll just just 211 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: forget it. It's just easier to go along with miss 212 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: you have to do something really bad like hit her 213 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: brother or not do her homework or well, let me 214 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: give you I guess that's not really spend a little 215 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: bit of info about this scumbag. He gets the girl eighteen, 216 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: and the pictures that we saw, he actually forced her 217 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: to dye her hair the same color as her mom's 218 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: and had her make her hair and makeup look like 219 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: her mom's. So it was like he had the mom 220 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: at forty three and the mom at eighteen. And that's 221 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: the pictures he sent of him having sex with her 222 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: in bed to the mom. So this guy is jacked 223 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: up on every level he can. It's freaky that he 224 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: made the girl dye her hair to look more like 225 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: the mother. Okay, Dr Brian Russell, you're the psychologist. I 226 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: think we need to shrink prawn. Well, so, you know, 227 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what has meant by he forced her 228 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: to do it. Well, I'm hearing a lot of allegations 229 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: in the media lately that, uh, this person forced me 230 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: to do this, and that person forced me to do that, 231 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: and and I think you know that my under standing 232 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: of forced is put a gun to your head or 233 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: a knife to your throat. Uh. I think a lot 234 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: of people, though, are using forced synonymously with uh, demanded 235 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: or asked me repeatedly or whatever. So I'm not sure 236 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: that maybe the daughter wasn't trying to uh, you know, 237 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: attract this guy away from the mom. Pause. Brian Russell, 238 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: why do you keep trying to blame the women in 239 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: this scenario. First she blamed the wife, who has done 240 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: nothing wrong. Now you're trying to blame the team girl, who, 241 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: as I said, it's probably chewing a mouthful of gum 242 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: right now, bopping around to Katie Perry or something. She 243 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: doesn't have it. She has no clue about what is 244 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: happening around her. Okay, she has no idea. She's out 245 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: of this. It's him, Russell, he is the one that 246 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: has committed big Amaye. I agree with you, but we 247 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: know he's got what charges. He's got a drug conviction, 248 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: he has got weapons charges, he's used alias is how 249 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: are the women to blame in this scenario, Brian, nobody's 250 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: to blame for a hair dye job. I mean, anybody 251 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: could dye their hair whatever color they want. I'm just saying, 252 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: and I don't know what hair is anymore. I did 253 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: this when I was fourteen. I have no recollection of 254 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: my life before blonde. Okay, so please don't even start 255 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: with that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about 256 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: the bigamy and sending your wife photos of you having 257 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: teen sex with her daughter. That's what I'm talking about, Brian. 258 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: Russell's the women twisted and sadistic. Of course, I just 259 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: don't know how he forced to dye your hair. Are 260 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: you back on the hair? What is it with you 261 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: in the dyeing the hair blonde? We're not talking about that, Brian. 262 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: We're talking about Biga medy hair. I'm gonna go to 263 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Pat Brown. That's your that's your punishment, Pat Brown, you 264 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: are not signing with me, and I don't take to 265 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: it very kindly. How can everybody be pointing the finger 266 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: and the wife and the daughter when this guy as 267 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: a criminal record, uses alias's, has gun charges hanging against 268 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: him and is sending photos of him in bed with 269 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: the girl? What? What? What is going on here? I 270 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: think it's going back to that old story. He knew 271 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: I was a snake, but you expect I was a snake. 272 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to say. This man is a psychopath, 273 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: There's no question, a psychopath of the d degree. He 274 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: enjoys getting what he wants and everything is about him 275 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: and his pleasures. I'm sure when he maybe I don't 276 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: know what happened between him and the mother, you know, 277 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: maybe she she didn't leave him, so I don't know 278 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: what happened there. This may be his way of getting 279 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: back at her. This Maybe he made this think ha ha, 280 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: this was hot. I could have sex with a brother 281 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: and the daughter. Hey, let me send pictures. Little piss 282 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: her off. Look, you know I can show her up. 283 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: You know, you know he who knows what he's doing, 284 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: but he's doing it off for his own pleasure? Is 285 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: he is being statistics and that you know that's a 286 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: part of power. And control that that that psychopaths like. 287 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: The narrator is kind of curious why you even bothered 288 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: with that because he could just you know, just there's 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: a lib luler. Why he went through the process of 290 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: marrying her, making her honorable woman. That's really hard to say. 291 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure what the reasons he had through 292 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: doing that, what purpose it served for him. But everything 293 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: comes down when he comes to a psychopath, he's doing 294 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: whatever he wants and he's he's like, you know, he's 295 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: he's he is what he is. That's why I think 296 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: Brian is saying what he's saying, because when you get 297 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: dealing with a psychopath, you can go you can go 298 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: in and that Where would you do that? Why would 299 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: he do that? Well, he does because there's a psychopath. 300 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: He does what do you want? You know? And but 301 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: that's why you gotta keep away from him. That's why 302 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: why women to keep away from them, because they do. 303 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: They do have traits and there's a most of the 304 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: time when women get involved with these kind of people, 305 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: they have there is a history that they that that's 306 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: already there. That's the only thing I'm doing a warning women. 307 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: I'm not blaming them I'm warning them a look, you 308 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: got the guy who's got all these traits of psychopath, 309 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: he stay away away. Yeah, well you know what, Pat Brown, 310 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: Criminal Profiler. One of my favorite favorite slogans is when 311 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: you don't know a horse, look at his track record. 312 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: Now here's another thing. And this is a cautionary tale 313 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: because you know, Alan, um a serious note it. You 314 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: have to pick the right man regarding your children. I mean, 315 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: you can date or run around with anybody. You know. 316 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: I can meet anybody. I can have lunch or dance 317 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 1: with anybody, as I always say, but that does not 318 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: mean I'm going to expose my children to them. Is 319 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: the kicker? Yeah, I mean, and that's where I got lucky. 320 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: I got so blessed that David danged to marry me 321 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: because he is the best father that I can't even imagine. 322 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: I'm thinking this guy is actually a predator who hooked 323 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: up with the mom and order to get to the teenager. 324 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. And now he's got her and 325 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: didn't need the mom anymore. So possibly, well you know what, 326 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: you just gave me an idea, Alan, do you and 327 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: I want to throw this to Pat Brown, the criminal 328 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 1: profile and Dr Brian Russell, you've probably seen what I'm 329 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: about to describe. Take another look at this guy, Christopher I. Hartman. 330 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: As far as conning people, his plea deal covered charges 331 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: of forgery and tampering with public records. What tampering. He 332 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: was accused of having used false documents, so documents that 333 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: he's forged and falsified to apply for a new Social 334 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: Security number under a different name. Now the kicker is 335 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: that fingerprints for Hartman matched those of a name Buckley. 336 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: So if he could fake out the government, you don't 337 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: think you could fake out on Aman that thought she 338 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: was in love with him. This guy is a con. 339 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: He's a con. Pat Brown, well he is. But I'll 340 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: tell you what happened. I agree with Alan that he 341 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: might have had his little sights on the daughter all along. 342 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: What happens is if what I tell women is the 343 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: problem is bringing them home too quickly, because these guys, 344 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 1: if they're looking at the children, sometimes they're looking at 345 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: a five year old or an eight year old or 346 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: a ten year old. If they're looking at your children, 347 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: they don't have the patients to wait around and go 348 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: through the dating process of a year. For example. So 349 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: if you're going to date them for a year before 350 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: you bring them home, they're gonna be gone to another 351 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: woman who's got children. So one of the reasons what 352 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: they do is they look for the woman who will 353 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: bring them home by the end of the week because 354 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: they don't have any patience. So that's one of the 355 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: most important things to tell women to protect your children. 356 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: Make sure you date the guy for a while, because 357 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: the psychopath who wants your kids will not wait the 358 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: time out he'll find That's a good point. Dr Brian Russell, 359 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: what about my theory that this guy is just a 360 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: big con Well, yeah, and I think you know clearly 361 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: across the board, this is a self serving person who 362 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: is going to do whatever he wants to do to 363 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: get whatever he wants at the time in the most 364 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: expedient possible way, including uh, probably sex and so whatever 365 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: other women were around. If this woman's sister had lived 366 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: with them, if this woman's best friend had lived with them, 367 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, her daughter happened to be there. And that's 368 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: why I totally agree, and I've said this many times 369 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: on your show. Uh, you know, I personally as a psychologist, 370 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: when people are divorced and they've got minor children. And 371 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: I understand this girl is now eighteen, but it sounds 372 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: like she was probably a minor when this woman initially 373 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: hooked up with this guy. Uh, they really ought not 374 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: to be dating at all, except unless it's exclusively out 375 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: of the presence of the children. If they want to 376 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: go on some dates when the kids are with the 377 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: other parent, fine, but when the kids are with you, 378 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: and certainly not bringing the dates into the home. Uh, 379 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: the risk is just too great. And and there's already 380 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: been enough damage done when a relationship has split up 381 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: and the kids are now, you know, have their parents 382 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: in two separate locations, there's been enough damage. Dave Matt, 383 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: syndicated talk show host, What what happens to this guy now? Uh, 384 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: they've sentenced him to jail. He's gonna go to prison. 385 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: And uh, you know how that those sentence things are. 386 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: They got him like for one year minus a day 387 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: on the bigamy charge, and they got him on the 388 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: oh I'm trying to think what the other one was. 389 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: But they got him for two years minus a day, 390 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: which I'm not sure how that works out in sentencing. 391 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: That's your guys expert stuff. But uh, he gets credit 392 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: for the three thirty days that he had to spend 393 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: in jail. Um and by the way, investigators say, they're 394 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: actually he's about to get cut less. They're actually still 395 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: investigating to see that he might have another wife out 396 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: there that they're looking into. You know, Dave mac, you're 397 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 1: always full of surprises, you know, switching gears. I know 398 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: the three of you are going to agree with me, 399 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: and I know you're tired. Alan Duke, okay, I know 400 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: you're tired trying to keep up with that new wife 401 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: of yours. I'm telling you know what she like, fifteen 402 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: or twenty years younger than you, twelve years younger, but whatever, Allan, 403 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: here's the thing. As we get like every five years, 404 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: you your body reacts differently, and as you go through life, 405 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: your body changes. You have less synergy, You feel more 406 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: fatigued than you used to. I mean, I have to 407 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: get up at five thirty to keep up with the 408 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: children and get them to school and work and this 409 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: and that and get it all done. I'm exhausted. And 410 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: then I started reading about super foods. I didn't even 411 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: know what they were. There's keen wah, there's sun chokes, 412 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: there's this, there's that. Then I found out about beats 413 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: super beats. 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I need all the energy I can get 432 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: you add water. The super eats are grown to exacting 433 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: standards and then turned into crystals you mix with water 434 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: go to eight hundred five zero six eight three or 435 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: Nancy's beats dot com. If you want the energy that 436 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: I do. Thanks super Beats. We now head across the country. 437 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: And once again, I just can't say it enough. If 438 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: you want it done right, just do it yourself. Okay, 439 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: what imbecile would try to hire a hit man by 440 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: offering as payment Atlanta Hawks basketball tickets. Now that's not 441 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: to dinnigrade the Atlanta Hawks, They're awesome. But when you 442 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: try to pay a hit man to kill your wife 443 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: and her boyfriend, your ex wife and her boyfriend with 444 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of cash and Atlanta Hawks tickets, I mean, 445 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: first of all, that narrows your employ e pool greatly. 446 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: Who's gonna do the deed for some Hawks tickets? Number one? Well, 447 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: who are you going to get? Not a professional killer? 448 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: I can tell you that much. But let's just start 449 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: at the beginning. I'm talking about a man who tries 450 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: to pay somebody cash in Atlanta Hawks basketball tickets to 451 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: murder his ex wife and her new boyfriend. I mean, 452 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: how many times do I have to say it, ladies, 453 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: there's a reason you broke up. There's a reason he's 454 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: an X. Okay, let's start at the beginning. Dave Max, 455 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: syndicated talk show host, with me, Dave, what can you 456 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: tell me about Michael mccartchin. Well, he's still in jail. 457 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: He was in County jail on drug charges Nancy when 458 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: he tried to arrange a hit man to take out 459 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: his ex wife and her current boyfriend. And that led 460 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: the UH, the c I, the confidential informant inside the jail, 461 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 1: to turn it over to the FBI, where they then 462 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: picked up the center. They set the guy. They didn't 463 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: set him up, that's the wrong term, but they followed 464 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: up on everything. The guy was in jail trying to 465 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: arrange this and to make it even more plausible for 466 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: him to be believed as an inmate that had money 467 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: to offer to kill his ex wife and her boyfriend, 468 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: he actually arranged to eight hundred dollar payment just to 469 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: show that he was serious about this. And he did 470 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: in fact offer Atlanta Hawks tickets even though the Hawks 471 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: are probably the worst team in the NBA this year, 472 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: and I mean Pat Brown criminal profile or you know, 473 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: eight hundred dollars cash and some Hawks tickets. That's a bargain, right, 474 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: that's not and it's not just one killing. He wants 475 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: his ex wife dead and her new boyfriends. Well, I 476 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: think the appropriate term for a guy like this, and 477 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: it's the only term I come up with, this dump, 478 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, that's what some of these low 479 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: life criminals are, and they don't know how to do things, 480 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: so they do things anyway they think it could be done. 481 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: And a lot of people, really they happened a clue 482 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: how they're gonna hire hit man or how this are 483 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: just stage a crime scene, even if they've watched a 484 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: bunch of TV. So they just talked to the person 485 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: standing next to him, Hey, what do you think I 486 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: gotta get a guy who kill my wife? I mean, 487 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: that's how brilliant they are, and that's the smart technique 488 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: that they use. So it is no wonder that he 489 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: got caught in this particular instance. But he's just not 490 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: very bright. I thought you can say it's not very bright. 491 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: And I guess for as far as the tickets go, 492 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: he didn't have a use of the ticket, and he 493 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: don't know what we're doing here. We're way way off 494 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: the mark, but I'm going to get us back in 495 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: the middle of the road. Right now, we are all 496 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: critiquing how inept he was and hiring a hit man, 497 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: and how he could have done it so much better 498 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: if he would just listen to us on serious X. 499 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: Can we talk about the fact that he's hiring a 500 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: hit man? Dr Brian Russell. These stupid sociopathic guys are 501 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: so sexy to you ladies. I mean, look at this guy. Look, 502 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: look look at this guy. Look at this I don't 503 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: find him sexy. He's sexy. He's not sexy to me 504 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: because he doesn't have a job. Chris, you know what, 505 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: if you can't help me, just don't hurt me, all right? 506 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: Who wants a man without a job? Number one, let's 507 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: just start with that lady. And he doesn't running around 508 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: on the outside trying to help him set up hits 509 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: on his previous, uh great wife that he had. And 510 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: how did these guys find all these win I remember when, 511 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, before I had the wonderful, amazing girlfriend I have. 512 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: Now you know, there would be long dry spells where 513 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, with with a couple of doctors and a 514 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: decent job at a TV show. Well wait, wait a second, 515 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: Brian Russell. Dr Brian Russell, Dr Brian Russell, pause, whole plays. 516 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell. You do know you're talking to Nancy Grace, right, 517 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: you do know that? Okay, Now did I hear you 518 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: say you have a wonderful long time girlfriend. It isn't 519 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: that long yet, but yes, what do you mean by that? 520 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: What's the hold up? What the hold up? No, it's 521 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: only been a couple of months. I'm just saying there 522 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: have been time, even as a lawyer and a psychologist 523 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: with the National television show, I had long dry spells 524 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: where I wasn't meeting anybody. And these sociopaths, even if 525 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 1: they're in prison, seem to have no trouble. They got 526 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: an endless parade of women wanting to to to even 527 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: go out and help him arrange hits on people. By 528 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: you're rye at Brian, where does a Where does he 529 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: find a girlfriend? B How do you convince a girlfriend 530 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: to go hire a hitman to commit murder? I know 531 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: I wanna pause and thank our partner making today serious 532 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: X program possible. And here's my question, what's your story? 533 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: In two thousand eighteen, the holiday rush is over. You 534 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: have no excuse. Sorry to be so blunt. Legal Zoom 535 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: get help you make this a great year before all 536 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: distractions take hold. 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Whether you want to take your business to 545 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: the next level, start your business, or take control of 546 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: your family's future with an estate plan, Legal Zoom plugs 547 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: right into your life so you can take care of 548 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: things that matter the most. Get off to a strong start. 549 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: In two thousand and eighteen at legal zoom dot com 550 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: a day special savings if you enter code Nancy in 551 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: a n C Y in the promo box at checkout 552 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: legal Zoom, where a life meets legal. You know, I 553 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: can't say it enough. If you want something done right, 554 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: you gotta do it yourself. I'm talking about a man 555 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: who offers a hit man Atlanta Hawks basketball tickets in 556 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: exchange for double murder. Dave Mack syndicated talk show I 557 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: was joining me. Why did he want to kill his 558 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: ex wife? They're divorced, Why does he care what she's doing, 559 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: and why drag her boyfriend into it? Well, because he's 560 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: a scumbag. I'm not exactly sure, and all the stuff 561 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: I've seen, I can't find any reason, any rational reason 562 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: for taking her out. However, this wasn't the first time 563 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: that he tried to take her boyfriend out, because the 564 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: boyfriend of his ex wife had been shot and survived, 565 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: and they trace that back to this moron. But you know, 566 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: we did think out where the Atlanta Falcons tickets. Yeah, 567 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Falcons or Hawks tickets came from. See, he's 568 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: got a girlfriend who's a bartender, and she's the one 569 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: that is selling these Hawks tags. I looked back on 570 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: her Facebook page and they date back all season. So 571 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: he's actually she's the one offering up the tickets to 572 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: get her boyfriend's ex wife out of the picture while 573 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: he's in jail. Now, Alan Duke, in the past, you 574 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: have said you've made comments such as, oh, he was 575 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: just talking, it didn't amount to a crime. That's not 576 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: true in this case, because he made several pointed comments 577 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: about it. He managed to get eight hundred dollars earnest money. 578 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: To show he was serious, he agreed upon a post 579 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: office box to drop off the eight hundred dollar deposit. 580 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: He gave the whippy hitman his ex wife's address description, 581 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: he described her and the boyfriend, and gave a killer 582 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: that would be killer the boyfriends place of work. So 583 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: this is more than just talking about how you wish 584 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: your ex wife was dead. This is for real, Alan Duke. 585 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: It was very real. And when the FBI started and 586 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: started investigating the tip from their confidential informant, According to 587 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: the affidavit from the FBI agent, they went to the 588 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: Subma the Smyrna, Georgia Police Department two investigate. Hey, what 589 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: do you know about this guy that they got the 590 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: target on? And the Smyrna police knew the boyfriend and 591 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: you know why they knew him? No, he had just 592 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: been shot. Oh my stars. You know what. Dave Matt 593 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: kind of mentioned something about that earlier. So you don't 594 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: think this would have been the first attempt on the 595 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend's life, I mean on the boyfriend's life. It 596 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: was obviously the same multiple attempts. You know, this guy, 597 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: he's an orchestrating murder for hire from his county jail ceho, 598 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, on the drug charges and getting a lot 599 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: of help from the girl friend. And I'm telling you, Nancy, 600 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: this girlfriend, I don't understand why she hasn't in charge yet. 601 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: I was just about to say, why hasn't she been charged? 602 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation Discoveries Fatal vows. 603 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: How how can somebody follow along with a murderous plan 604 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: so blindly? She wasn't just following along, she was offering 605 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: up the payment for murder. Yeah, it's completely implausible to 606 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: me that she didn't know she was involved in a 607 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: murder for higher plot. And so, uh, what it really 608 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: points out is something that I've been talking about ever 609 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: since I've been you know, every going back years. Uh, 610 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, back when you and I were talking about 611 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: cases on TV. We would come up with these cases 612 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: once in a while where this kind of a thing 613 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: would happen, And it really points up something fascinating. If 614 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: you look at almost all of the high profile serial 615 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: killers in American history, almost all of them have formed 616 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: committed relationships with women, or if not, may worried while 617 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: in prison, even on death row and you think, why 618 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: in the world would somebody want to become involved romantically 619 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: with somebody who is can't even take him on a date, 620 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: can't even have a phone call except you know, once 621 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: a week at a particular time with him, And it 622 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: really speaks to a profile. I think of of those 623 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: those women that the people that get involved with them 624 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: are very um typically uh, you know that they've got 625 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: a lot of emotional issues of their own, a lot 626 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: of neediness, a lot of um you know. Some of 627 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 1: them like the shock value of telling their friends they're 628 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: dating somebody who's a prisoner or a serial killer whatever. 629 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: Some of them like the fact that the person is 630 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: unavailable so that they can sort of control the level 631 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: of contact and everything, and they think that's gonna have 632 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: them be in charge of the relationship. But look what happens. 633 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: They end up having their puppet strings pulled by the sociopath, 634 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: even from behind bars, just every bit as much as 635 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: if he were out. You know, it's not just talking 636 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: to the girlfriend. There are recorded phone calls at the 637 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: jail bab Brown criminal profiler. Thank god, the people behind 638 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: bars seem to forget or pretend it's not real. All 639 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: his phone calls are recorded all of them. Yeah, you know, 640 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: I think we were talking about the type of women. Uh, 641 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, I think that one of the problems is 642 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: when you talk about what level of what where are 643 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: you such a bar? In other words, it can't be 644 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: too picky, because you get too picky, you don't get anybody. 645 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: So you drop your level of down you can get 646 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: a lot more people. And but sometimes when you drop 647 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: your level down enough. I actually talked to one woman 648 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: who was dating, who was dating and one to marry 649 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: Cyril Killers uh, And I asked her, I said, what's 650 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: wrong with the box boy at safe Boy? You know, 651 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: the guy stock in the shelves and he goes he's born, Yeah, 652 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: he is born. Because now you you realize you couldn't 653 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: get oh uh famous actor being who you were, You 654 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: get box boys at safe way because you know, you 655 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: also work at Safeway. But that's not enough for her. 656 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: It doesn't make her feel good enough and special enough. 657 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: We're excited enough. But if she can get that guy 658 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: behind bars, which is a lot easier, and these guys 659 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: will go for that, she's gonna get somebody really interesting, 660 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: somebody you know, the bad boys, somebody cool, and she 661 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: gets to help him too. She gets to do some 662 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: real things for somebody, you know, brings him whatever he 663 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: wants in jail, send them the letters, all that civily stuff. 664 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: So there's a really weird dynamic that goes onto some 665 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: of these women's brains. It makes them feel important. And 666 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: sometimes these women suffer from sort of a narcissistic personality disorder, 667 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: and that is how they get They have to get 668 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: that constant feat and psychopaths are really good at saying 669 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: all the right things. If it go to uh data 670 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,439 Speaker 1: data prisoner dot com one of those those things. Man, 671 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: those guys are great. I mean they look good and 672 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: they say things like I want to take walks on 673 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: the beach and I'd like to talk and and they're 674 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: actually better than the regular dating sites because they know 675 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: what to say walks on the beach, that to the 676 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: outside here instead of being if you if you go 677 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: if you go to one of the regular dating sites, 678 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: the guy standing next to his car, you know, and 679 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: he's going to look a girl's open minded, you know, 680 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: that's what you get. But if you go to the 681 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: best site, the Prism site, you get the guy who 682 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: likes poetry and wants to talk to you. He doesn't 683 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: want to just have sex with you. It's ridiculous, but 684 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: he says all the right things for a girl. If 685 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,399 Speaker 1: you're on the outside, it would actually I'm a little 686 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: concerned about you. What are you doing on these sites? 687 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: How do you know this? I used that. I used 688 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: this one of my training programs. Believe me, I'm not 689 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: there for myself, you know. Uh. And there are actually 690 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: dozens of sites devoted to creating a relationship with someone 691 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: behind bars, isn't that true? Pet Round, Absolutely, there's a 692 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: huge amount of them. And what I did with one 693 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: of my college classes I was teaching, because I had 694 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: the students, had the males pick out some females. The 695 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: female took out some males and it was amazing. They 696 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: were all shocked at how really great they sounded compared 697 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: to the regular dating sites. But that is the psychopath 698 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: knows how to learn lettle people. He just knows what 699 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: they want to hear, and he's practiced this on so 700 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: many people. So a woman who is really desperate or 701 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: lonely or narcissistic or whatever her issue was, and she 702 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: decides I could help a prisoner, Michael, I could you 703 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: know this guy'll get out one day and I could 704 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: be the woman he's been waiting for to change his 705 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: life or whatever she's got going through her head. Man, 706 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: they just line up for this stuff. It's it's unbelievable, 707 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: you know. Dgor Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation 708 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 1: Discoveries Fatal Vows series. It's a big hit. Dr Brian Russell. 709 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: When Pat Brown is using terms like psychopath or narcissistic, 710 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: first of all, she said that this guy, Michael mccarchin 711 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: is a psychopath. What does she mean by that? So 712 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people use the terms sociopath and psychopath synonymously. 713 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: I don't, I make a distinction. And here's the distinction. 714 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: Associopath is somebody who will do destructive things for a 715 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: secondary gain. That means, uh, there's nothing about the destructive 716 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: act necessarily, that's all that exciting. It's just that it 717 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: gets them something else that they want. It gets the money, 718 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: it gets them sex, it gets them, uh, some other goal. 719 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: And the psychopath is somebody for whom the destructive behavior 720 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: is the goal. It's for it's we call it primary gain. 721 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: In other words, the the excitement of the destructive act 722 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: in and of itself, is the motivation there there There 723 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be any secondary goal. There doesn't have 724 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: to be any money, any pleasure and other other than 725 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: just committing the act. I thought a psychopath and again, 726 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: you guys are the shrinks. I'm just a trial lawyer. 727 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: I thought a psychopath was someone that could not identify 728 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: with anyone else's pain, so for them to kill someone, 729 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: I mean they start. Many serial killers start as children 730 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: killing animals or insects, um tearing the heads off toys, 731 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: and they move up to cats and dogs, other children. 732 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: I thought that a psychopathist is someone that cannot identify 733 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: with other people's pain or sorry, they like conscience. It's 734 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: it's a spectrum. It's an antisocial personality disorder spectrum, kind 735 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: of like the autism spectrum, where you know, you have 736 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: you have people sort of on the low grade end 737 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 1: of it, who are willing to lie and cheat and 738 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: con other people to get some money or to get 739 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: some laughs out of fooling somebody. And then you have 740 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: people on the extreme end who are willing to torture 741 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: and murder people for the enjoyment of watching them suffer. 742 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: And so all along that spectrum you see a diminishing 743 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: of conscience where the person is less and less, uh, 744 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, inclined to care about the impact of their 745 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: actions upon others. I hesitate always to say they can't 746 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: do it. They can't, they have no ability to have conscience. 747 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: I think it's it's there's an element of choice in 748 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: it always where they choose to prioritize their own gratification, 749 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,399 Speaker 1: whatever that is. Okay, you know what you're You're using 750 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: way too many big words, zommie. Dr Brian Russell. Okay, 751 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: Now do I throw out legal terms all the time? Well, 752 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: first of all, I don't want to, but there's nothing 753 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: that can alienate a jury more than if you start 754 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: talking Latin to them. Okay, that's not good. You gotta 755 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: dummy down for me, Brian Russell. Okay, now, Pat Brown, 756 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: give me a crack at it. When you say he's 757 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: a psychopath, can you spot talk to me in regular 758 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: people talk. Well, first of all, I do like Brian's description, 759 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: although I'm a little Well, you like it because you 760 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: understand what he's saying. You two were speaking your own language, 761 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: Dave mc and Alan Duke and I are sitting here 762 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: going in my opinion for me, Pat, what why do 763 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,720 Speaker 1: you say he's a psychopath? Okay, psycho a psychopath. Basically, 764 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 1: the it cares only about himself and nobody else. It's 765 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: it's about him, it's not about you, and he will 766 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: take He will either use you, he will have me. 767 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: Put it this way, you're either useful to him or 768 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: you're in the way. That's it. And now that's starting 769 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: to make sense to me. You're either use Now, when 770 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: you said someone is narcissistic, I know the old myth 771 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: of narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection 772 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 1: in a pond. But when you say someone is narcissistic, 773 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Okay, a narcissists that 774 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: that's sort of that continuum with the continuing that Brand 775 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 1: was talking about. Narcisism means that you have an excessive 776 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,760 Speaker 1: self interest. We all have self interests, otherwise we wouldn't survive, 777 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: and so we we do care about ourselves, but we 778 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,240 Speaker 1: also care about other people and we take that into account. 779 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,840 Speaker 1: The higher we are in the narcissistic uh continuum, the 780 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: less we care about how other people are affected by 781 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: what we do or what we need, the more we 782 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: just try to get things for ourselves. Okay, you know 783 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 1: Pat Brown, Pat Brown, Pat, you know how I feel 784 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: about you. I love you. But Dr Brian Russell I 785 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: respect to you greatly. But the two of you, the 786 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: two of you, are are making my teeth and my 787 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: head hurt. Dave Matt, can we get back to reality? Okay, 788 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: let's let's get out of the ivy tower that these 789 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: two are living in. They're probably writing some you know, 790 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: doctoral thesis on this, Dave Matt, what does it mean 791 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: to me? And what does it mean to Michael mckeatrin 792 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: and his ex wife and boyfriend that almost bit the bullet. Literally. 793 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: The thing that bothers me the most about all this, Nancy, 794 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: is that this guy is sitting in jail on drug 795 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: charges and he's able to arrange this. Now, granted, it 796 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: got interrupted by the FBI because of at least one 797 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: confidential informant inside the jail, but this guy was orchestrating 798 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: stuff from behind the jail and he had help, and 799 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: I'm really bothered that he's able to have this. Lisa 800 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: Marie north Cut his girlfriend, who obviously is the connection 801 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 1: on the Atlanta Hawks tickets, and she was the one 802 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: passing the money through and getting it to where it 803 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: needed to go for when they thought they were hiring 804 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 1: a hit man. She's an accomplice here, and I have 805 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: to really worry about those that would run into her 806 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: because what would she do now Her best friend here 807 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:25,880 Speaker 1: is in jail arranging murders and she has not been charged. 808 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: She's not a person of interest. However, if she's doing 809 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: his bidding and knows it's about a contract killing, I 810 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: also if that's true, Alan Dee, I'm very surprised she 811 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: has not been charged. Well, the main case against him 812 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: is a federal case, and they're not going after her. 813 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,240 Speaker 1: There's no mention of that. Oh, you know the fans, 814 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: they don't play. No, I'm very surprised they haven't gone. 815 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: Sure she's working as a witness, right, would they be 816 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,360 Speaker 1: working a deal with her to get more info? A 817 00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: witness seems to testify a lot better if they have 818 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: a part to jail said, it's hanging over their heads. 819 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: You know what, I'm on it. We're watching this. What's 820 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: to say he's not going to get out of jail 821 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:12,320 Speaker 1: and make good on his intentions? Pat Brown, You're awesome. 822 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of Investigation Discoveries, 823 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,280 Speaker 1: hit show Fatal Vows, Dave Max, indicated talk show host 824 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: Alan Duke, Jackie Howard, my partners in crime guys, Thank 825 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off, Goodbye friend,