WEBVTT - States Rebuff Trump Election Integrity Commission (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump's so called Election Integrity Commission is asking states

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<v Speaker 1>for a wealth of information from their voter databases, including names, addresses,

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<v Speaker 1>voting history, birthdates, and the last four digits of Social

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<v Speaker 1>Security numbers. The Commission's vice chairman, Kansas Republican Chris Kobak,

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<v Speaker 1>explained the request on MSNBC. There are lots of errors

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<v Speaker 1>in every state's vote rules. Let's find out how significant

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<v Speaker 1>those errors are. Let's find out how many decease people

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<v Speaker 1>are on the roles. Let's find out how many cases

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<v Speaker 1>where someone's deceased individuals actually voted. And let's find out

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<v Speaker 1>how many aliens are on the vote rules. But the

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<v Speaker 1>request has generated pushback, lots of it. Both Republican and

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<v Speaker 1>Democratic officials are balking in many cases, saying state law

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't permit them to turn over that information. With us

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about the issue, the request are to election

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<v Speaker 1>law experts. Nate personally is a professor at Stanford Law

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<v Speaker 1>School and is with June in our New York studio

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<v Speaker 1>and Josh Douglas, professor at the University of Kentucky School

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<v Speaker 1>of Law. Welcome to you both, um, Nate. Let's start

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<v Speaker 1>with what you just heard Chris kobaks there and the

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<v Speaker 1>goal he says he's trying to accomplish. Is there any

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<v Speaker 1>problem with the goal of trying to gather information from

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<v Speaker 1>the states about their databases. Well, for the most part,

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<v Speaker 1>we have a very decentralized electoral system in the US.

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<v Speaker 1>We not only decentralized down to the state level, but

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<v Speaker 1>we decentralized further down to the local level. And so

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<v Speaker 1>a national database of voters does not exist. So what

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<v Speaker 1>the Kobac Pence Commission is trying to do is unprecedented. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>The secretaries of State have indicated to Kobac that he

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of information that he is asking for from

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<v Speaker 1>the states. Uh, if they were to provide it would

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<v Speaker 1>often violate state law because he's asked for a real

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<v Speaker 1>wealth of information from about the individual voters. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think there is a problem legally with assembling a national

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<v Speaker 1>database of eligible voters per se. But the way he's

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<v Speaker 1>gone about it is contradictor to some of the state laws. Josh,

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<v Speaker 1>what is he looking for? Really? Is there another way

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<v Speaker 1>to do what he says he wants to do without

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<v Speaker 1>getting all this information? Well, it's not clear what he

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<v Speaker 1>really wants to do. UM And that's the problem. And

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<v Speaker 1>I say it's not clear because although he claims to

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<v Speaker 1>be seeking evidence of duplicate registrations or or people voting illegally, um,

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<v Speaker 1>what he's asking for is not the way to do

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<v Speaker 1>that um. And so I think, well, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people are concerned about is that he's gonna if he

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<v Speaker 1>were to obtain this information, he would to learn what

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<v Speaker 1>we already know, which is that the voter registration rules

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<v Speaker 1>can be bloated for for normal reasons like people die,

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<v Speaker 1>people move, um, And that's not evidence of voter fraud.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the concerns that he's going to say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>look we have these bloated registration rules, there's voter fraud here,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's going to support ever more restrictive voter voting laws.

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<v Speaker 1>And and that's what I think one of the big

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<v Speaker 1>problem woses well, um, Nate. I mean, if what he

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<v Speaker 1>ends up finding is just we have a whole lot

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<v Speaker 1>of duplicate registrations, as Josh said, something that uh, you

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<v Speaker 1>election law experts have known for a long time, but

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<v Speaker 1>that there is not a whole lot of evidence of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, actual fraud people actually showing up and saying

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<v Speaker 1>I want to vote for this dead person. Um, wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>that be a good thing? Well, I think it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>if you took yourself out of the politics of the

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<v Speaker 1>situation and you said, well, what should the United States

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<v Speaker 1>have a list of eligible voters out there? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think that's an inherently bad thing. The problem is that

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<v Speaker 1>this is not about creating a national list of voters.

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<v Speaker 1>It's about trying to suss out UH voter fraud and

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<v Speaker 1>duplicate voting in the like. And if you look at

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<v Speaker 1>the request, and those of us in the business of

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<v Speaker 1>dealing with these voter lists know that they're they're all

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of reasons that you have these errors. But more

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<v Speaker 1>importantly that when you match up the types of voter

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<v Speaker 1>list that Chris Kobac is trying to seek with the

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<v Speaker 1>national databases dealing with social security or postal addresses or

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<v Speaker 1>the ones held by the immigration services, that you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to have a huge amount of errors. And so you

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<v Speaker 1>will end up finding out that or suspecting that there's

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<v Speaker 1>all these illegal voters who are voting, when in reality

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<v Speaker 1>you've made a lot of mistakes in the matching process.

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<v Speaker 1>And the way that he has put forth this request

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<v Speaker 1>of the States indicates that he doesn't understand the complexity

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<v Speaker 1>of the matching of the lists. Just about thirty seconds.

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<v Speaker 1>But we can pick up pick up on this based

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<v Speaker 1>on on what's happened. How much information is Kobak actually

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<v Speaker 1>going to end up with from the states. Also far,

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<v Speaker 1>it sounds like not a lot. I think we're up

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<v Speaker 1>to forty four states that's said they're not going to comply,

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<v Speaker 1>at least impart. Six states have not said what they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to do next um and so this has been

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<v Speaker 1>a real debacle already from the start. The very first

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<v Speaker 1>thing this commission has done has really backfired. We're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about Donald Trump's Election Commission and its letters requesting voter

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<v Speaker 1>data from the states. Chris Kobak, the man who signed

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<v Speaker 1>the letters, said, the commission is seeking only public information.

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<v Speaker 1>This is publicly available information. The commission is only requesting

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<v Speaker 1>what any person on the street in California can walk

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<v Speaker 1>into a county election office and get. So if social

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<v Speaker 1>Security number is not publicly available, and it is not

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<v Speaker 1>publicly available in most states, then we aren't requesting it.

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<v Speaker 1>That was from an interview on MSNBC. Our guests are

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<v Speaker 1>Nate Personally, who is an election law expert at Stanford

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<v Speaker 1>University and Josh Douglas, who was an election law expert

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<v Speaker 1>at Kentucky University's law school. Josh, one of the complaints

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<v Speaker 1>about what Chris Kobak is doing is privacy concerns. But

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<v Speaker 1>if Kobak is just as he's saying, seeking information that's

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<v Speaker 1>already public, what's the concern there? Well, for one, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's off putting to be asked for things like

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<v Speaker 1>social Security numbers, military status, detailed voting history um. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>Even if that stuff is not public, it's included in

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<v Speaker 1>the request UM. But more poor Only it's not the

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<v Speaker 1>case in every state that someone could just walk into

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<v Speaker 1>the county Klerk's office and UH and obtain this information.

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<v Speaker 1>Some states charge a fee for the voter file UM.

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<v Speaker 1>And as we've discussed earlier, elections in America are really decentralized,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's not about going to uh the state and

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<v Speaker 1>asking for this information. Uh. He even admits in that

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<v Speaker 1>clip you just played that this is all a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of data is held at the county level, and yet

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<v Speaker 1>it's being asked for at the state level. So there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of problems with the implementation of this request.

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<v Speaker 1>Not to mention the privacy concerns in the data that

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<v Speaker 1>he's asking for. Nate, So, forty four states that includes

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<v Speaker 1>of course Republican states have said that they won't comply

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<v Speaker 1>or they can't comply. Can Kobak do anything besides having

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump trying to tweet them into submission by embarrassing

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<v Speaker 1>them and saying, what are they trying to hide? So far?

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<v Speaker 1>This commission does and have any extraordinary power to issue

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<v Speaker 1>subpoenas or to force them to do anything. And actually,

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<v Speaker 1>as I understand it, he has admitted as much and

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<v Speaker 1>says that, look, we're just asking for the data that

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<v Speaker 1>they have that's publicly available. Uh. And so I think

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to have to go back to square one

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<v Speaker 1>here and figure out how they're going to assemble the

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<v Speaker 1>database that they care about without relying on the sort

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<v Speaker 1>of good intentions of the states, because they've they've sort

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<v Speaker 1>of had a bit of an uproar here. Um at

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<v Speaker 1>some point, you know, we have to admit that what

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<v Speaker 1>this is about is, look, trying to figure out whether

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<v Speaker 1>the voters who are on the list and people who

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<v Speaker 1>have voted are some what's you know, some subsection of

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<v Speaker 1>them are illegal voters the three or five million that

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<v Speaker 1>President Trump tweeted about it following the election. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>really what this commission is about, is trying to figure

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<v Speaker 1>out how many people are illegally on the roles and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe heavy illegally voted in the last election. Josh, this

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<v Speaker 1>commission is at least nominally bipartisan. There are I think

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<v Speaker 1>at least have been at least three Democratic members of

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<v Speaker 1>the commission. Um. One of them, the Maryland Deputies Secretary

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<v Speaker 1>of State Luis Barunda, just resigned. Uh. Can you just

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<v Speaker 1>just talk about that? Do we do? We know? I?

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<v Speaker 1>Mr Barunda resigned and is this truly a bipartisan commission

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<v Speaker 1>at this point? I don't think we have any information

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<v Speaker 1>as to why uh Barunda resigned, although there was a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of an uproar in the election community when

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<v Speaker 1>he was named, because it's not clear that he has

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<v Speaker 1>any election experience whatsoever. Um. But in terms of the

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<v Speaker 1>broader question about bi partisanship, I don't think that commissions

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<v Speaker 1>can be seen as bipartisan at all. Um. Unlike Obama's

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<v Speaker 1>last commission after the twenty twelve elections, Presidential Commission on

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<v Speaker 1>the Election Administration, That one was co chaired by Obama's

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<v Speaker 1>mean election lawyer and Mitt Romney's an election lawyer and

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<v Speaker 1>had an election expert Nate personally, who everyone sort of

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<v Speaker 1>agrees is very well respected and by partisan field. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>here we have Pence in Kobac leading the charts. Both

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<v Speaker 1>of them obviously have their own political viewpoints. There's no

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<v Speaker 1>serious Democrat who has agreed to join the commission. I

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<v Speaker 1>say serious, and that someone who has a strong election

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<v Speaker 1>uh experience. I think I think the name of the

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<v Speaker 1>commission signifies this true purpose. This isn't the Commission on

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<v Speaker 1>Election Administration. It's Commission on Election Integrity. And that's the

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<v Speaker 1>only thing that the commission seems to be focused on.

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<v Speaker 1>If we're gonna have a serious, five partist commission, it

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<v Speaker 1>would look at not only election integrity, but the problem

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<v Speaker 1>of voter suppression as well as issues of voter enhancement

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<v Speaker 1>to ways of states can and should be making it

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<v Speaker 1>easier to participate in our elections. So, Nate, let's go

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<v Speaker 1>back to the executive order that started this thing rolling.

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<v Speaker 1>What does that tell us about this Well, A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of what President Trump's executive order said in establishing this

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<v Speaker 1>commission is that they want to preserve confidence and promote

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<v Speaker 1>confidence in the American electoral system. And to some extent,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a buzzword for those of us in the election

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<v Speaker 1>administration community, because Uh Quebec and President Trump are right,

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<v Speaker 1>which is that a lot of people do have a

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<v Speaker 1>lack of confidence in American democracy and in the way

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<v Speaker 1>the voting system works. Democrats right now lack confidence because

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<v Speaker 1>they think Russians hacked the election. Republicans lack confidence because

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<v Speaker 1>they think and believe that there was a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>voter fraud. The problem is that you don't find that' say,

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<v Speaker 1>restrictive voter i D laws or the like, have any

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<v Speaker 1>real effect on promoting voter confidence. And if you start

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<v Speaker 1>looking at public opinion instead of the actual data about

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<v Speaker 1>who voted and who may have voted it illegally, you'll

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<v Speaker 1>get a completely different view as to what the pathologies

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<v Speaker 1>are in the American electoral system. I want to thank

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<v Speaker 1>our guests. That was Nate personally talking. He's a professor

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<v Speaker 1>at Stanford University Law School. Uh formerly was the senior

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<v Speaker 1>research director for a truly bipartisan commission set up after

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<v Speaker 1>the election, and Josh douglasa professor at the Universe A

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<v Speaker 1>Kentucky School of Law, both election law experts,