1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: M Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. In this old world, 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: there's not too many things that I valued more than sleep. 3 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: It seems like the older I get, the more I 4 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: like it. That time that you can snuggle down your bed, 5 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: be warm, comfortable, forget the day that you've left behind 6 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: and hopefully waked the next morning and be arrested. But 7 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: for Christopher Osborne, he never woke up and went to 8 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: bed one night, and maybe, just maybe the last thing 9 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: that he heard was that hammer Dy on the thirty 10 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: special Revolver in his life ended him. Today, we're going 11 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: to talk about the home side of Dr Christopher Osborne. 12 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Backs with me. 13 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: Today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories when 14 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Jackie, I don't know about you, but I 15 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: sure do like bed, tom. I love laying down my bed, 16 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: pulling covers up over my head and just drifting off 17 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: into slumber. But Dr Osborne he paid price. He paid 18 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: price for being married to Holly Osborne. I have to 19 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: say that because she ended his life as he laid 20 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: there sleeping. This is the case that just kind of 21 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: boggles the mind, because you have a crime and a 22 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: perpetrator who says she really doesn't remember a lot of it. 23 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,639 Speaker 1: In fact, the police became aware of what happened after 24 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: Holly Osborne called her father to tell him what had happened, 25 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: and then the father ended up calling one and during 26 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: the phone call to nine one one, her dad revealed 27 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: that she was drunk when she called him. Police get 28 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: there and Holly Osborne was not in I don't want 29 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: to say she's not in her faculties because that's not 30 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: the way to say it, but she is not sober. 31 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: Police find two guns next to the bed, and there's Joe. 32 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: There's so many ways that we could go at this case, 33 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: So let's start with if you were laying in the 34 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: bed and you were shot, the bed itself is obviously 35 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: going to be your evidence bonanza because the blood that 36 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: drains from the body is going to pull on the 37 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: bed as well as any gunshot residue, any fragments. I mean, plethora, plethora, plethora. Yeah, 38 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: you're right, Jackie. Some of the most interesting cases that 39 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: I've worked comicides have involved beds and bedding. I think 40 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: one of the cases that really jumps to mind from 41 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: me actually had a case where a swat team had 42 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: come into a home and Letty was lying on the 43 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: bed and she reached for a gun and she was 44 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: lying on the bed or the door bust open. The 45 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: problem was this, she was laid on a water bed. 46 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: They hit her with a fully automatic weapon and there 47 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: were bullets all over the place, and not just all 48 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: over the place, they were floating in a pool of 49 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: water that she was in turn floating in because the 50 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: bed had been perforated. And in this case you actually 51 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: have a perforation of the mattress, which from one perspective, 52 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: is really handy for forensic investigators. And let me kind 53 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: of tie this back to what happens in the crime 54 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: lab when we're testifying weapons. I think that people might 55 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: not know how we capture bullets at the ballistics laboratories, 56 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: but generally one of two ways. We either fire a 57 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: test fire weapon into a tank of water and bullet 58 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: will float down and it's it's caught in a trade 59 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: down there. And the beauty of firing into water is 60 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: that it allows the bullet to remain in kind of 61 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: a pristine state. It's not passing through some kind of 62 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: solid object. It's going through a fluid now other places. 63 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: Actually when you fire a bullet to test fire, it 64 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: goes into cotton and again it's it's not I don't 65 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: think that it would be as preferable as water. But 66 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: still the bullet maintains its integrity, if you will, the 67 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: physical integrity. And in this particular case, one of the 68 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: rounds actually did pass through dr osborne into the mattress. 69 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: So when crime scene investigators were there, you know, kind 70 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: of digging around is you have to do, because you 71 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: can see where the whole is in the mattress. They 72 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: would have to track that round determine what the trajectory is. 73 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, you place a trajectory rod in the hole first, 74 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: and you take a photograph of that, or use a 75 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: simulator in the room like a Pharaoh device. They can 76 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: shoot lasers in the room and try to recreate kind 77 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: of a three D environment with this thing. And you 78 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: would do that, you know, to visualize it, and then 79 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: you cut down into that mattress and retrieve that spent 80 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: round and hopefully it will be intact. And you know, 81 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: the end game here is to try to match that 82 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: round up with the weapon that it originated from. One 83 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: of the big problems though, is that the body in 84 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: a case like this becomes what's referred to as an 85 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: intermediate target. That means that the body is in between 86 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: the end of the muzzle and the resting spot of 87 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: the projectile, and so as it's passing through the body, 88 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: the projectile can become deformed, misshapen, that sort of thing, 89 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: and it can also fragment too. It will not look 90 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: the same as it does when you're testified in the lab, 91 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: so it won't be as pristine. But it's better, certainly 92 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: going into a mattress than it is striking a concrete floor, 93 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: because you have so much evidence at that point to process. 94 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: Start from the beginning, Joe, you walk in that room, 95 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: you see a body on a bed, you see guns, 96 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: you see blood. Where do you start? Do you start 97 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: with securing the guns that you find near the scene? 98 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: Do you check to make sure the victim is alive 99 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: and need medical help? Where do you actually start? Great question, 100 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: because the first thing that you do, look, forensics is great. 101 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: It's fantastic, it really is. But in every single case, 102 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: the health and safety of the public trump's everything else. 103 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: Okay here, people, many times cops in particular that our 104 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: work cases where they've had the firefighters, first responders that 105 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: will run onto the scene, or the paramedics that will 106 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: show up, and they're quote unquote according to investigators, they 107 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: are trampling on evidence in this environment. Okay, well, their goal, 108 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: and this is important to remember, their goal at that 109 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: moment in time is not to preserve evidence, is to 110 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: preserve life, right, And so you have to assess the 111 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: status of at that time would be their patient. Me, 112 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: I'm a death investigator. I'm gonna refer to the individual 113 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: as as a decedent. Okay, that's not the stage that 114 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: you're at. This point, you have to determine the status 115 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: of the patient. Is it possible that this individual could 116 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: still be respiring, that they could still have a heartbeat, 117 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: And they're going to assess them at that moment in time. 118 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: They'll get out the stethoscope, they might even hook up 119 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: an e k G, a portable EKG, and see if 120 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: there's any evidence of life at all. But in this case, Jackie, 121 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: and you know, you really mentioned something just a second ago. 122 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: When Holly Osborne had this awareness that her husband was dead, 123 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: her first inclination was not to die none eleven. It 124 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: was to call her daddy at that point in time. Now, 125 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: one of the major problems with it is if you 126 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: don't get E. M. T. S. Saddled up and headed 127 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: in your way in the quickest manner possible, this person 128 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: is going to die. And so I think that if 129 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: you look at this from not just let's just don't 130 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: consider the evidence, let's consider what that implies. Right, that 131 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: you're aware that your husband has has sustained gunshot ones 132 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: like I would assume you would be aware of that, 133 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: But yet you're not calling nine eleven, And that shows 134 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of a callousness, doesn't it. I mean, just think 135 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: about that just for a second. I don't know about 136 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: everybody else listening, but I gotta tell you, if someone 137 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: has the idea that I've been shot, I don't want 138 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: them to call their next of Kent. I want to 139 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: get on the phone and I want to I want 140 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: to hear ambulances in the distance. I want to hear 141 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: the sirens and and if I can still see, I 142 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: want to see those lights flashing outside my window. That's 143 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: not the case with this. She called her dad. Her 144 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: dad called police. So when he made that call and 145 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: the dispatcher sent out the alert to all the appropriate 146 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: people personnel who would have gotten there first, Who would 147 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: have been the personnel that nine one one would have 148 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: informed first. Well, there's gonna be a couple of folks. 149 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: The way this kind of breaks down is that you 150 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: you know, I think people think, well, the paramedics are 151 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: gonna get there first. Not most of the time. You know, 152 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: who generally shows up and sometimes they will arrive at 153 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: the same time. I'm always fascinated about this because when 154 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: I was a little boy, I don't want to be 155 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: police officer. I'm gonna be a firefighter. I loved this. 156 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: Trucks fire stations generally have paramedics that work there as well. 157 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: Now they're firefighters, and they will be on a truck 158 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: that's smaller than a regular fire truck, okay, and they 159 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: will they're standing by, right, they hop in the truck 160 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: and off they go. Man, I mean they're just blasting. Well. 161 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: The police might be handling another call, for instance, and 162 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: they're gonna get there as quickly as they can. But 163 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: the guys in the first responders in those fire trucks, 164 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: and like I said, it's generally smaller one, they'll roll 165 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: up at the scene themselves and many times they have 166 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: to let theirselves in. And you know, people often talk 167 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: about how dangerous it is for police officers to go 168 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: to domestic calls. Think about an unarmed firefighter first responder 169 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: showing up and they not most of the time. There 170 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: are certain jurisdictions, but not most of the time. Firefighters 171 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: e m t s are not armed, okay, they're not 172 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: wearing a side arm. So they're going into an environment 173 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: where there has been gunfire. There has been gun play, okay, 174 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: and their goal is to try to determine what has 175 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: happened in this environment and try to save somebody. Just 176 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: imagine how horrific this is. If you're going into this 177 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: environment and you're walking in the door, you've got your 178 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: medical kit with you, maybe you're dragging a stretcher behind you, 179 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: and you're walking in and it's a person that's bleeding out. 180 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: And guess who're standing there the perpetrator And guess what 181 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: else you mentioned it just a second ago. You've got 182 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: two weapons in there. You've got two weapons that are 183 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: in there, and you've got a person obviously that has 184 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: had a part in the death of this individual. Was 185 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: to say for these defenseless firefighters at this moment, time 186 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: that they're not at risk too. That's why they're so brave. 187 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they really are. When you begin to think 188 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: about what their job is to make an assessment on 189 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: a patient and try to determine if in fact there's 190 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: any hope whatsoever that they're going to survive, and then 191 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: it's absolutely terrifying. I've had any number of friends that 192 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: are first responders that have told me just horror stories 193 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: where they're having to wrestle with people, they're being threatened. 194 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: I've had friends that have been shot at. I had 195 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: a friend of mine that was stabbed. A was the 196 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: first responder, and it's it's a tough, tough job. So 197 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: as the first responders get there, no matter who it is, 198 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: whether it's a firefighters, whether it's paramedics, or whether it 199 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: is the police, because they have to go in and 200 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: assess the scene. So basically, what you're telling me is 201 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: is it really no matter who gets there first, your 202 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: crime scene is going to be damaged in some way. 203 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: So how do you figure it out? Here's kind of 204 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: an interesting part to all of this with firefighters. And 205 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: I note that if there are any in our audience today, 206 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: they'll they'll understand this firefighters many times have to have 207 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: get this, they have to be fingerprinted, and I don't 208 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: mean like in order to get their job. They will 209 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: literally be printed in order to eliminate their fingerprints at 210 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: a scene. Let's say, for instance, they're not wearing gloves 211 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: when they roll in and they touch something. And also, 212 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: here's something else that's interesting. What do you have if 213 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: you have an individual that has sustained multiple gunshot ones 214 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: where you just don't have defects in the body, probably 215 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: got a copious amount of blood. And guess what happens 216 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: with the firefighters when they're trying to make their way 217 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: to the body. Well, they're gonna step in it. They're 218 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: gonna step in it, and they don't have an awareness 219 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: of this. They're trying to get to the person to 220 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: render age. So when the firefighter actually steps in the blood, 221 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: they will transfer that bloody bootprint because most of them 222 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: wear boots like this, these kind of still toad boots 223 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: that protect their feet and all this stuff. Because they 224 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: go into these really harsh and hostile environments and they're 225 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: going to transfer that print of that that shoe print 226 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: to the floor. I've been on scenes many times where 227 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: we'll ask the firefighters first responders to take their boots 228 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: off and will set them up and we'll take photos 229 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: of them. We'll demonstrate they've got blood on the soles 230 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: of them, and you can pick up on the tread 231 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: patterns and all of that stuff, so that if it 232 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: comes up later on down the road, you can compare 233 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: those prints that you see at the scene two prints 234 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: that are left behind by the bloody boots that they 235 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: were wearing at the time. And it's a matter of elimination. 236 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: So from Jump Street, your scene is contaminated. It's contaminated 237 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: before it actually becomes an official crime scene, and and 238 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: all of that has to be taken into consideration. Here's 239 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: another fascinating part about first responders. Unlike even the patrol 240 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: officer that's out there that shows up at the scene 241 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: and kind of has security and they're in control of everything, 242 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: guests who are the first eyes on the scene, well, 243 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: it's going to be the first responder and they'll hear 244 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: and see things that other people will not hear and see. 245 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: Can you imagine what it's like to be a first 246 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: responder and you show up and you got a spouse 247 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: that is just talking out of their head. You know, 248 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: they're saying things like I didn't mean to shoot them, 249 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: or the gun accidentally went off, or or I had 250 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: had enough of him, or whatever the case might be. 251 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: Well they hear that, they hear that, and guess what, 252 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: they're not police officers, so they're going to include that 253 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: in their report, and that report can be subpoenaed and 254 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: they'll be called to the stand. The firefighter of the 255 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: mt they can actually hear this loved one or the perpetrators, 256 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: as the case might be, actually hear them make the 257 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: statement that's gonna be committed into evidence. So they play 258 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: like this really key role in what they see when 259 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: they and what they hear when they first roll up 260 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: at the scene. Okay, so you talked about bloody footprints, 261 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: but one of the other things that you're gonna see, 262 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: especially on a bloody crime scene, if they're trying to 263 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: revive the victim, it's going to disturb your blood patterns. 264 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: Instead of droplets and spatters and smears, you're gonna have 265 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: drag marks. You're gonna have I don't know, I don't 266 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: know all the terminology for him, but you're going to 267 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: have marks that were not there caused by the actual incident. 268 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: So how do you, as a crime scene investigator tell 269 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: the difference in something that was caused by your crime 270 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: and then caused by your first responders when they pulled 271 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: the body off the bed. Just picture this. Let's say, 272 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: for instance, you've got an individual that has been shot 273 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: in the chest okay and around has punctured there long. Well, 274 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: what do what do they do? What do first responders do? 275 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: If they're trying to re establish a heartbeat, they're trying 276 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: to get them to respire. Well, they're doing chess compressions, 277 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: aren't they. Well, they've they covered the wound. Let's say, 278 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: for instance, the old term is a sucking chess wound. 279 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: If you have a wound that penetrates the chest cavity 280 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: and it goes into the long they'll be taking air 281 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: into that that space, the thoracic region there, and they 282 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: develop what's called it pneumothorax, which means that the law 283 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: in this beginning to collapse. So they'll try to seal 284 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: that off with with plastic and covered up. But then 285 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: they have to start doing chess compressions. And guess what 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: all I have to do is think back to uh, 287 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: you know that image from the crime scene with Travis 288 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: Alexander where we had bloody aspirate all over the sync 289 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: where he spit it out after Jodieire's had stabbed him. 290 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: So many times, the same thing kind of happens when 291 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: you're doing chess compressions. The individual will be spitting up blood. Well, 292 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: that's bloody aspirate that's coming out, and sometimes that can 293 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: appear to be like medium velocity blood staining and so 294 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: it lands all over the place. Well, how do you 295 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: separate that from something that was generated as a result 296 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: of an attack. Well, the best way to do it 297 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: is to speak to the responders. What was going on? 298 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: Why you were doing the chess compressions? Was he spitting 299 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: up blood? Because that kind of blood has a it 300 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: has a different kind of appearance. It's it's heavily oxygenated. 301 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: It will have kind of a frothy appearance to it 302 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: many times, and you have to try to understand is 303 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: that the source of that? It is it because they 304 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: were doing the chest compressions, and then you talked about 305 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: the movement of the body to try to examine the body, 306 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: because you know that's that's part of assessment. You're trying 307 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: to triage somebody at a scene or do the initial examination. 308 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: The e m t s are not thinking, oh my gosh, 309 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: I gotta leave this body in its pristine state so 310 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: that the detectives, if this person dies, can appreciate them 311 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: in this original position. No, they're not doing that. They're 312 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: rolling this person over there, checking them for injuries, They're 313 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: checking them for signs of life. They're going to manipulate 314 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: the body. Just think of it. When you go to 315 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: the doctor. The doctor doesn't have you stay in one 316 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: static position. They're gonna move around you, listen to your 317 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: your heart sounds and you're you're breathing on the on 318 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: your back side, on between your shoulder blades, and you're 319 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: gonna put the stethoscope over your chest. They'll have you 320 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: laid down, do all kinds of things. They're going to 321 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: manipulate you in that circumstance. This, the individual they're responding to, 322 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: is not unlike that. They are a patient, they're not 323 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: a deceiti At that moment, I cannot tell you how 324 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: happy I am I got to talk about e m 325 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: t s. There's some of my favorite people in the 326 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: world because they are so self sacrificing in their profession. 327 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: They know they were corbel hours there. They're there for us, 328 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: night and day, and they certainly showed up on this 329 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: scene for Dr Osborne, but of course it was to 330 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: no avail because as was determined, he was in fact 331 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: dead at the scene. Dr Osborne was shot, and we 332 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: know that he was shot by his wife by the 333 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: nature of her call to her father and his call 334 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: to the police. So when police get there, we know 335 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: that they saw two guns and the defendant had been shot. 336 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: If he had been shot more than once, do you 337 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: get now here comes my stupid question of the day. 338 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: But there's a reason I'm asking it like this, So 339 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: don't laugh at me. Are you going to see more 340 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: blood the more times that you're shot or does it 341 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: depend on where you were shot? We know Christopher Osborne 342 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: was shot three times in the head, so how much 343 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: blood there ends up being outside the body? Does it 344 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: depend on where you were shot or how many times 345 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: you were shot? Mama said when we were growing up, 346 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: we don't use word stupid. All right, there are no 347 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: stupid questions, so you can anger a right. There are 348 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: no stupid questions. And actually it's a valid question because 349 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: you know what the forensic pathologists identified as gunshot wound A. 350 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: And I gotta be very clear about this. The letter 351 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: that's assigned to this does not have any bearing on 352 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: the sequence in which they were fired. Okay, but what 353 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: the friends of pathos of just his calling the letter 354 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: or the number that is assigned in an autopsy report 355 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: to a gunshot wound or even a stab wound does 356 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: not imply the sequence. There's no way to know the sequence, 357 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: but the one that the forensic pathologist is referring to 358 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: as gunshot wound A. Get this, and this was actually 359 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: stated on the stand. This round went through his right jaw, 360 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: his mandible, which is your jaw on on the right aspect, 361 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: passed in the posterior neck, which means on the back 362 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: side of the neck, traversed the body and was lodged 363 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: in the cheek on the left side. So it entered 364 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: on the right, passed in front of the spine, okay, 365 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: and clipped what they call the upper cervical spinal area, 366 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: which is like uh C one through C four, and 367 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: then wound up in the soft tissue of the of 368 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: the jaw. And get this, it didn't clip a single vessel. 369 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: It was absent any kind of blood. You didn't have 370 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: blood that was generated from that and then there you know, 371 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: to say that it didn't clip any vessel is kind 372 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: of misleading. But what she said on the stand is 373 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: that she said specifically, it didn't hit the juggler vein, okay, 374 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: which we all have heard the juggler vein. You know, 375 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: of course you've got the crowded that passes through that 376 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: area that none of the structures were struck with with 377 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: bullet A. So the volume of blood has a lot 378 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: to do with where you're struck anatomically, because there are 379 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: certain areas you can be hit in your body where 380 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: you're going to bleed less than you would compare to 381 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: another anatomical location. What's fascinating about this particular case is 382 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: the fact that it's kind of an amazing little factoy 383 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: there that this gunshot wound A that they refer to 384 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: this A, B and C, that gunshot wound A. The 385 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist says it didn't clip any vessel. You factor 386 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: that in with the idea that the head, you know, 387 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: the neck through the head is the most vascular area, 388 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: and what that means is there's more blood vessels that 389 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: are traveling through that area because your brain requires so 390 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: much oxygen aated blood more so than any other area 391 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: in the body. You're going to have all of these 392 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: branches of vessels that are running every which way through there. 393 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: Let's say, for instance, you're struck in the temple with 394 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound and it passes, say from right to 395 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: left and winds up, you know, exiting out of your skull. 396 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: That's going to be a very very bloody wound. I 397 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: just I would ask anybody within the sound of my 398 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: voice that's ever sustained and open head injury. And when 399 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: I say that, it's not as it doesn't have to 400 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: be severe, like you know, your skulls fraction, you have 401 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: brains visible. I'm just talking about where you split your 402 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: head open. Have you ever noticed how much you bleed 403 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: anytime your scalp is insulted at all, as a is, 404 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: to say, a paper cut on your finger, or maybe 405 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: even if you've cut your wrist in some way or 406 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: the back of your arm or skinned up a knee. 407 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: It just seems as though that you bleach so much 408 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: coming from your scalp, and of course below that area 409 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: when you get into the skull. So it is what 410 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: we refer to as being anatomically depended upon where each 411 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: one of those rounds that's targeted, particularly when it comes 412 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: to the head. Okay, Joe, But I got to go 413 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: back to my original question because I really want to 414 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: understand this, and the point I'm getting at by asking 415 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: it is knowing how blood if the first shot did 416 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: not kill Christopher Osborne, knowing how the body still pumps blood, 417 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: would there have been with the second wound just more 418 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: blood initially or would there be more pressure coming that 419 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: from that first wound that made a hole in the 420 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: body to the exterior. Would that have seemed seen more blood? 421 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: You understand what I'm trying to get at. Oh? Yeah, yeah, 422 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: I do. And particularly if you're talking about, let's say, 423 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: for instance, like a through and through wound. And when 424 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: I say through and through, I mean that you have 425 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: an entrance in an exit, an obvious exit. We talked 426 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: about wound a Okay that they identified in the autopsy. 427 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: The bullet did not completely exit out of that wound. 428 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: It was sitting right beneath the surface of the skin 429 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: and Jason to the left jaw. Okay, But if you 430 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: have a through and through wound, it's just logical you're 431 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: perforating the body through and through. So the more defectually 432 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: having the body, the more you're going to bleed. And 433 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 1: you know I have I have folks asked me and 434 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,959 Speaker 1: have asked me throughout my career. Here's the one question 435 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: that's posed me, particularly when when I notify families, they 436 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: always say, did they suffer? That's a relative question, Okay. 437 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: I think people are asking do they have an awareness 438 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: that that they're dying or you know, that they're in 439 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: throes of death or whatever the case might be. If 440 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: you were shot in the head, let's say you you 441 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: take around to the brain. Yeah, from a neurological standpoint, um, 442 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: you're automatically diminished. Okay, But just because you're shot in 443 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,959 Speaker 1: certain areas of the brain doesn't mean you die instantaneously. Now, 444 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: if you're talking about the brain stem is clipped where 445 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: all the autonomic stuff is going on, you know, our 446 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: hearts beating and all that, you're not gonna be dead instantly. Okay. 447 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: So it's again we're back to this idea of being 448 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: anatomically dependent. And let's say, for instance, an individual is 449 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: shot in the head. It's through and through. It goes 450 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: from say the right temporal area through the left temporal 451 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: area and exits a body. But hearts still gonna be beating. Okay, 452 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: so it gonna be beating. And if it's still beating, 453 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: that means that blood is coursing through the system. Now 454 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: you've compromised the structural integrity of all of the vascular 455 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: system okay, the little vascular pathways in the brain, and 456 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: now you've got these openings that have been blown out. 457 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, they'll be a tremendous amount of blood that 458 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: comes out. You see people that sustain and there are 459 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: many of them that sustain into oral gunshot wounds, which 460 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: are most of the time self inflicted. You see in 461 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: the movies people stick guns in people's mouths and threatening 462 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: postures and all that sort of thing. I don't know 463 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: of any case I ever worked where that was a 464 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: homicidal event, but you do have that with suicide, and 465 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: those are some of the blood is cases that you 466 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: can possibly work. When it comes to gunshot wound related suicides, 467 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: there'll be a tremendous amount of blood. And you think, well, 468 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, if if they if they die instantaneously, why 469 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: is there so much blood at the scene. Well, their 470 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: heart doesn't just automatically cease beating at that moment in time. Now, 471 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: do they have an awareness that this is going on? 472 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: I think most neurologists would probably say no, they don't. 473 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: They've lost consciousness at this point. They don't have an 474 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: awareness of it. But yet the heart continues to beat 475 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: because it's it's part of the it's controlled by the 476 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system. So you're still gonna be pumping out 477 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: blood until eventually, here's another fancy ten dollar word, you know, Nancy. 478 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: If Nancy was here to say, just gotta start to 479 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 1: start speaking English. At this point. There's a terminus use 480 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: that we refer to as exsanguination. Exanguination. It's very simple. 481 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: It just means that you bleed out, you lose a 482 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of blood. They exsanguinated and that just means 483 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: major blood loss at that point in time. So, but 484 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, kind of tied up in a neat bow. 485 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: Most of the time, when you have head trauma, particularly 486 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: related to gunfire instances, it's gonna be a bloody mess, 487 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: and it makes it makes interpreting the scene from a 488 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: blood stained characteristic standpoint, the devil. You pay the devil 489 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: to do it because not only do you have that 490 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: dynamic event, say for instance, where an individual is shot 491 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: and that round passes through the skull and you have 492 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: high velocity blood staining that goes over everything, and you 493 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: know where you get that real fine particular blood droplets 494 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: that are all over the place. But yet they lay 495 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: in that same spot and they've got this secondary blood 496 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: flow that kind of covers and obscures that initial blast 497 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: that takes place. It can be very very tough to 498 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: kind of figure things out at that point. Does the 499 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: state of Christopher Osborne's body at that point a state 500 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: of complete relaxation sleep? Does that play anything at all 501 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: into what happened in that the reaction of the body 502 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: when he shot. I think that it speaks a lot 503 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: to the perpetrator. It's not like the perpetrator went face 504 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 1: to face with Dr. Osmond where they're in some kind 505 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: of dynamic fight. This guy was asleep when the first 506 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: officer rolled up. Dr Osborne was laying face. Now, now 507 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: I'm not stomachs it for myself. It's just something I 508 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: don't find comfort in. But let's just say, let's just 509 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: say for argument's sake, that that's the position he slept in. 510 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: If you sustain a gunshot woo the head, more than 511 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: likely you're gonna die right where you're shot. Okay, You're 512 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: going to bleed out in that position. And it says 513 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: a lot for the and I use this term a 514 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: lot for the asymmetry in this kind of environment and 515 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: this kind of violent relationship. What I mean that moment 516 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: of violence where you have an individual that's dominant, that 517 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: is standing over him or immediately over him with this 518 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: weapon and firing into this man's head not once, not twice, 519 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: but three times. Three times, they're going to get the 520 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: job done. And here's another thing that you can ascertain 521 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: from the grouping what we refer to if you were 522 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: out of a firing range, where you're looking at the 523 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: grouping of the bullet holes or defects as we refer 524 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: to them. I've never been a good shot. I was 525 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: in the Army and I barely qualified as firing guns. 526 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: I love guns, I love to talk about guns, particularly 527 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: from a forensic standpoint. I've never been good at firing guns. 528 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: I come from a family that are really good. To 529 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: my great shame, I was never a great marksman. But 530 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: this is what I know. Anytime I had to go 531 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: the range to qualify. I know that the closer I 532 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: got to the target, the tighter my shot group got. 533 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: So if you're scoring head shots, which this individual scored 534 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: three head shots on Dr Christopher, that implies to me 535 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: that either they're a highly skilled marksman or they're in 536 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: very close proximity to Dr Osma. So what you're telling 537 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: me is the state of the body, whether in heightened 538 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: anxiety or full relaxation, changes nothing. When an event likes 539 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: this happens when you're shocked. The amount of blood that 540 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: exudes from the body doesn't change the pressure within the 541 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,239 Speaker 1: side of the body about how fast the blood's going 542 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: to come out, things like that. Being awake versus being 543 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: asleep makes no difference. It's not a matter of being 544 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: awake or being sleep. What matters is is that if 545 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: you're already in a sleep state and someone shoot you 546 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: in the head, you're not coming out of that sleep state. 547 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, You're going to drift off 548 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: into death because the brain has been so damaged at 549 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: that point in time. Now, if Dr Osborne had been shots, 550 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: for instance, if he'd been shot in his back and 551 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: around had passed through his intestines, he would have come 552 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: to he would have come out of that sleep state 553 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: that might not have been for a long long time, 554 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: but he would have had certainly have had awareness, and 555 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: you would see him bleeding out rolling around in it. 556 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: Kind of the best term I've I've ever been able 557 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: to kind of use is writhing. We hear that associated 558 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: with pain, and it is painful. You can imagine being 559 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: shot in midsection through your bowels, very painful event, and 560 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: there would be a pain response at that moment time. 561 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: If his brain is not damaged, he has an awareness 562 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: of what's happened, and certainly he still has his faculties. 563 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: If you're shot like that and the abdomen or in 564 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: the back, you have an awareness because you can hear, 565 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: you can see, you can smell. You imagine waking up, 566 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: you've heard, you've heard a loud report of a weapon, 567 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: and you've been shot. But you also smell gunpowder that's 568 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: hanging in the air. You know that that burned gunpowder. 569 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: It gives off a very distinctive odor. So you would 570 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: have that kind of century awareness to what's going on, 571 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: and with the bleeding in that circumstance, you'd had them 572 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: writhing around in it. Lack of movement, though, many times 573 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: is indicative of a shot that literally takes your lights 574 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: out to the point where you're not going to move 575 00:33:46,320 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: at that point in time after you've been injured. Yeah, 576 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: I've often thought of evidence in terms of whispering and screaming, 577 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: and essentially what I mean by that is that sometimes 578 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: it's it's very gentle your sensitivity to it, and you 579 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: have to have your total awareness of what's going on 580 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: and pick up on every little subtlety. Other times you 581 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: look at a circumstance and it is literally the evidence 582 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: of physical evidence you have there absolutely screams as to 583 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: what was the nature of the event. In this particular case, 584 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: I think we've got a lot of evidence that screaming 585 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: at us, Oh, screaming in day Joe, you were telling 586 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: me how close you thought this incident happened. And from 587 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: what I've learned from you about gunshot residue, you're really 588 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: not going to get it on you after thirty six inches. 589 00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: During the arguments made by Polly Odsborne's defense attorney and 590 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 1: the fact that she was found with gunshot residue on her, 591 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: her attorneys were trying to claim that it was possibly 592 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: transferred to her body by police contact with the gunshot residue. 593 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: But this was what I found most damning and most 594 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 1: interesting about this case. Not only was gunshot residue found 595 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: on her, Joe was found on her eyebrow. There's two 596 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: chemical compounds that you fund within a bullet. Okay, let's 597 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: say live ammunition. I don't like to use the term 598 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: bullet because it means a lot of different things to people. 599 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: Bullet can be the totality of the live round. And 600 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: you've got this lead core projectile, it's going down range. 601 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: Some people will call that a bullet, and then they'll 602 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: look at a fully intact item of live ammunition, they'll 603 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: call that a bullet. So it's variable. But let's just 604 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: say with live ammunition, you have two chemical compounds that 605 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: are at work. You have what's referred to as propellant, 606 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: and propellant is gunpowder, okay. Where you have the gunpowder 607 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: that is actually ignited and it drives that projectile out 608 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: of the end of the barrel. Okay, So the projectile 609 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: itself is packed into the casing and the gunpowder sits 610 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: directly beneath the projectile. Now, how does this start? How 611 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: does this mechanism start. I've often described it to my 612 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: students in forensics classes. Just think of it as a 613 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: rocket ignition. So what do you ignite the propellant with. Well, 614 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: you have a primer with a a piece of ammunition, 615 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: particularly thirty eight caliber thirty eight special round. You'll have 616 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: the base of the live round, and you'll see what 617 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: looks like if you ever look at one, turn it 618 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: on its end and look at it looks like a 619 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: bull's eye. That little brass area right in the center 620 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: that's called the primer cap and the primer in there. 621 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,919 Speaker 1: When the hammer goes ward, it strikes that primer. Well, 622 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: the primer is a bit more unstable chemically. That means 623 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: that as soon as it's touched off, it fires off vigorously, okay, 624 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: and it sent sparks up through these what are called 625 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: flasholes in the base of the live round, and it 626 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: ignites the propellant. So you've got several chemical reactions going on. 627 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: You talked about this gunshot residue, the g s R 628 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: that's found on Holly Osborne's eyebrows and on her hands. 629 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: What that means is is that when that primer initiated, 630 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: where's it creates a puff of smoke. You get two 631 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: puffs of smoke. You get a puff of smoke that 632 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: comes up out of the rear of the weapon. That's 633 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: going to be the primer igniting when it strikes and 634 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: it gives off this cloud. Just think of I'd like 635 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: to use talcum powder in my description is a lot. 636 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: If you think about talcum powder and you open up 637 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: the little vents on the top of a bottle of 638 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: talcum powder and you squeeze it, and you get that 639 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: little puff in the air. It's got to settle. It's 640 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 1: it doesn't just hang in the hair, right, So this 641 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: gunshot residue is generated from this primary strike, okay, And 642 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: it's very chemically, it's very specific. So it comes to 643 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: rest generally on the backs of the hands many times. 644 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: And if you're standing like in really close or you're 645 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: holding the weapon in really close proximity to your face, 646 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: I guess what it's gonna do. It's gonna rain down 647 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: on your face, so you catch bits of it, for instance, 648 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: in your eyebrows. It will come to rest on your skin. 649 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm actually amazed that they swapped her eyebrows. I I 650 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: find that quite fascinating. But they did and they were 651 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: able to detect gunshot residue in these areas it had 652 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: actually deposited in these areas. The main components of the 653 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: gunshot residue are going to be things like lead, antimony, 654 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: and aream, and that that kind of creates this this 655 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 1: chemical storm, if you will. You know, years ago before 656 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: we had scanning electron microscopes that were widely used, they 657 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: used to use a very very interesting test and it 658 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: is called a paraffin test. And so if if an 659 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: individual had fired a weapon, what they would do it 660 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: just just imagine this. They would take hot wax, paraffin wax, 661 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: and you'd have to set your hand in it. Okay, 662 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: you'd set your hand in it. They take a cast 663 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: of the suspect's hand. The cast would be removed, and 664 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: then they would apply was referred to as a re 665 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: agent to the actual cast, this wax cast of the hand, 666 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: and you would begin to get these hits, these color 667 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: hits on there, and it would give you the indication 668 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: that you had these, uh, you know, partially burned components 669 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: that were left behind, and it would it would interact 670 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: with the chemicals, but it was hit or miss. It 671 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: just wasn't that accurate, and still some people argue with 672 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: with gunch at rosidue, whether or not, you know they 673 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: they'll still doubt the efficacy of it. And that's why 674 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,919 Speaker 1: the defense attorney raised this suspicion. You know that that 675 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: the gunshot residue was actually transferred somehow. I've heard in 676 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 1: this case, I've heard, Well, it could have been transferred 677 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: from the body, because they're not denying that he was 678 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: shot with the thirty at caliber pistol, so it was 679 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: transferred from his body, or that the police had transferred 680 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: it onto her in in handling her, for instance. And 681 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: that's kind of that's a real reach. I mean, the 682 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 1: defense attorney is doing what defense attorneys do. They're attempting 683 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: to defend this individual, and they'll throw up any kind 684 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: of seed that will plant reasonable doubt. In this case, 685 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: of course, it didn't work. Stupid question time again. Are 686 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 1: all gunpowders the same? No, they're not. And that's an 687 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: excellent question. As a matter of fact, you look at 688 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 1: you're knocking it out of the park, hanging curve balls. 689 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: The beauty of it is that you don't even have 690 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: to a chemical test on gunpowder to determine if it's 691 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: different from the other. What's really interesting is that gunpowder 692 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: depended upon the manufacturer it. You can look at the 693 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: morphology of it and what that means is the appearance 694 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: of it under high magnification. You'll have some gunpowder that 695 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: will be disc shaped, You'll have some of it that 696 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: will be cone shaped. You'll have some of it that 697 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: are shaped into little rods, for instance. And it's it's 698 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: all deepended upon whose manufacturing this. And of course they 699 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: have the same basic chemical compound, but they are chemically distinct. Okay, 700 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: deepened upon the manufacturer. Because these things are you know, 701 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: they're they're registered, the items that are sold. Okay, they're 702 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: specific signatures that you can go back and look for. 703 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by that little item there. From 704 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: a forensic standpoint, can you tie something back that? The 705 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: key is, though, how deep are the police going to dig? 706 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: How deep are the people at the forensics lab going 707 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,320 Speaker 1: to dig in to whatever sample they have captured at scene? 708 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: Are they going to be compelled enough and enthusiastic enough 709 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: to go in and examine these things? In this particular case, 710 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: they were The other scientific reality here is that not 711 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: only do we have gunshot residue in this case. But 712 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 1: we have what's referred to as a distribution of gunpowder 713 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: on Dr Osmond's body. Here, Okay, what do you mean 714 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: distribution like all up and down his body? No, not 715 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,919 Speaker 1: all up and down his body. But here here's here's 716 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,919 Speaker 1: the key. When we take a body into the morgue, 717 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: after we've done all of our primary trace evidence collection 718 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: on a body, we will clean the body up. Okay, 719 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: that seems counterintuitive, I know, because you want to see 720 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: the body. Keep using this term pristine, But you have 721 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: to be able to appreciate anything that's underneath, say, for instance, 722 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: the blood that's on the body, any kind of other 723 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: injuries that might be resting in it and needs Let's 724 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 1: say they were for instance, not in this case, but 725 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: if you have a case where somebody was beaten down 726 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: or pistol whipped and then they were shot. Okay, well, 727 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: blood that has seeped out of the body could cover 728 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: up say contusions and that sort of thing. But the 729 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: thing about the distribution of powder, unburned powder, specifically from 730 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: a firearms related event, is that it's not going to 731 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: wash away unlike gun shot residue. You have to be 732 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: very careful with people that you suspect. You cannot allow 733 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: them to clean themselves up. They have to stay in 734 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 1: their current state when the police find them, because you 735 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,760 Speaker 1: can rinse off gunshot residents, you know, if you scrub 736 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: hard enough and this sort of thing, you can, you know, 737 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: kind of get rid of it. I'll return back to 738 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: the gunshot woe in just second, but here's another little 739 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: interesting part to this. And the detective was actually assis 740 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 1: under under cross examination and I found it very interesting. 741 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: And ali Osborne was taken into custody. They did not 742 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 1: take her clothes from her for testing, so it was 743 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: kind of a moment in court I think for the jury. 744 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: They did do just are testing on the hands and 745 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: obviously the eyebrows, which still for me is is fascinating, 746 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: but they did not collect her clothing, like sure that 747 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: sort of thing. What did I say earlier? You know 748 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 1: about my example with the baby powder, that cloud has 749 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 1: got to settle somewhere, and it can settle onto her clothing, 750 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: and she's fired the weapon, so it's not just gonna 751 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: be on her hands and maybe the backs of her 752 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: arms or the palmer aspects of her arms, but it 753 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: can come to rest on the fabric of the clothing. 754 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: They didn't collect her clothing, and that could be a 755 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: problem in some some cases. But when you think about 756 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: the gunshot wound, our wounds that Dr Osborne sustained, what 757 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: the pathologist concluded was that he had stippling patterns all 758 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: over these wounds. And what that means is that the 759 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 1: unburned powder and anything else that might come out of 760 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: the end of that muzzle. It's not just a bullet 761 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: coming out, and you've got smoke that comes out, You've 762 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: got flame that shoots out. Sometimes you've got unburned particles 763 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: of gunpowder that come out. And what happens is is 764 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: that that literally embeds itself into the tissue. And of 765 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: course the further you move back with the end of 766 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: the muzzle, the broader the distribution of that pattern will 767 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: be okay. And so you can appreciate you can ascertain 768 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 1: range of fire. Now, I know that I have said 769 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: in the past when I said out to thirty six inches. 770 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: Now let me qualify that because I heard you mentioned 771 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: that earlier. See I know you listen, Jackie, I just 772 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: know you listen. Thirty six inches you might be talking 773 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,439 Speaker 1: about a high power weapon. Then okay, because you would 774 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: have a tremendous amount of more force, you'd certainly have 775 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: more propellant that would be coming out. But when we're 776 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 1: talking about handguns, most of the time you're looking about 777 00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: an eighteen inch range. Well, here's what we know. These 778 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: are intermediate gunshot wounds. And the reason I know that, 779 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: and the reason that the pathologist knew that, is because 780 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: there was a distribution pattern to spread, if you will, 781 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: where it had deposited on this poor man's skin as 782 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: he laid their sleeping That would give you an indication 783 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: that it wasn't eighteen inches. She moved that muzzle they believe, 784 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: anywhere from six to nine inches away from his skin. 785 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: When she pulled that trigger, she was right on top 786 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: of him. And here's another fascinating thing when you think 787 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: about that, that gunshot residue was on her eyebrows. She 788 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: was very up close in personal when she fired this weapon. 789 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean she drew that she drew that thing into 790 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: her face and then she leaned forward over his body. 791 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: And she didn't just fire once or twice. She fired 792 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: three times into this man's body that she's married too, 793 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: and old him right there in the bed well in 794 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: shooting with the thirty eight. Of course, learning that about 795 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: the six insions, the first thing I thought of was 796 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: how in the world did she keep from giving herself 797 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: a black eye with from the recoil for one um, 798 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: But you mentioned something a minute ago about the residue 799 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: on both of her hands. I want to reach a 800 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: sentence on which you explained it to me that came 801 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: from the report about this autopsy, about this investigation, I 802 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: mean both of her hands had the cut off ten particles. 803 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: They don't go up higher than that. Okay, what does 804 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: that mean? Ten particles? That means ten, ten points of 805 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: identification relative to the chemical distribution of those items. All 806 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: you have to do is find ten. You have to 807 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 1: find ten of those. I still don't understand ten particles. 808 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: Is it like the ridges on your fingerprints? Yeah, exactly, 809 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: So if you can find ten of those particles, that's 810 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,320 Speaker 1: the cut off. That means that you have chemically assessed 811 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,759 Speaker 1: this or tolerance here and the courts tolerance because this 812 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,479 Speaker 1: has passed through the membrane of scientific rigor. If you will, 813 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: you know those things that we test in court, for instance, 814 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,680 Speaker 1: are those things that passed through like Daubard hearings, and 815 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: this sort of thing is an acceptable science. And what 816 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: they have determined is that ten of these components are 817 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:24,240 Speaker 1: found on her. So for them, the court is saying 818 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: that the court has recognized that that is acceptable, that 819 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: that is demonstrative of the fact she has gunshot residue 820 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: on her, and that that is solid enough to stand 821 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: up in court. That's precisely what it means. Ten particles. 822 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: Give me an example of for I'm just trying to 823 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: understand of what a particle would be. I still don't 824 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,360 Speaker 1: understand what that means. You're talking about the breakdown components 825 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,479 Speaker 1: of the gun, gun gunpowder residue itself. Yeah, yeah, and 826 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: it can be the components itself. You can actually find 827 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: lead that's associated with this. You can find shared off 828 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,919 Speaker 1: pieces of brass in there sometimes. So you find a 829 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:08,239 Speaker 1: base number of ten of these components present on the 830 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 1: individual's hands when you're going to test her. And you 831 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: know this, the structure of gunshot residue is not simply 832 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: lead antimonium barri um. There are other associated elements that 833 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: are considered in this. You can have things like calcium, 834 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: you can have silicone in there. There are any number 835 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: of other things, and so you find this combination of 836 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 1: ten that's enough of a baseline to establish that she 837 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: did in fact have gunshot residue on her and putting 838 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: together the evidence against Holly Osbourne, not only was gunshot 839 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 1: residue found on her hands, but her DNA was found 840 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,280 Speaker 1: on the guns because the guns were in her home 841 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: and you would imagine that, yes, her DNA would be 842 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: on it. How did it prove that she was the perpetrator? 843 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing if you just pick up 844 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: a pistol, say for instance, by the pistol grip, and 845 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: you transfer your DNA onto that surface. But if your 846 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: DNA completely envelops the backside of of the housing of 847 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: that weapon, and you find so, for instance, your DNA 848 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: deposited on the trigger, the trigger housing, or when you 849 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: went to check to see if it was loaded and 850 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: you opened up the cylinder. Because this was a revolver, 851 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: there's a lot of action that goes on with a 852 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: revolver to kind of maintain it and see if it's 853 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 1: if it's a hot weapon, if you will, you're touching 854 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,320 Speaker 1: it all over the place. It's one thing just to 855 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: kind of passively pick it up and move it to 856 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: another location. But when you've got that much touching going on, 857 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: it's one more element in this case that puts that 858 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: weapon in her hand and eventually has that muzzle pointed 859 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,719 Speaker 1: at the back of Dr Osborne's head. Holly Osborne was 860 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,359 Speaker 1: convicted of murder in the death of her husband. She 861 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,760 Speaker 1: has been sentenced to eighteen years to life in prison. 862 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: M H, I'm Joseph's got more and this is body bags. 863 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 1: M