1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Auksha. Today we are bringing you one of 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: our favorite episodes, a conversation with the environmental journalist George Monbio. 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: It's about farming, food systems and whether there are alternatives 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: to the way we currently use land. It was recorded 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: almost a year ago to the day in George's sunny 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: community orchard in Oxford. Enjoy and we'll be back with 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: a regular episode next week. Welcome to Zero, I'm Akshatrati. 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: This week microbial protein, the end of farming, and really 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: stinky cheese. Every year, our food system does something amazing. 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: We produce enough food for eight billion people and then 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: some and although millions still go underfed, the level of 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: hunger in the world is much lower than in all 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: of human history. It's a remarkable feat when put in 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: its history shtorical context. Meanwhile, India's boat problems continue to 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: create widespread concern a countryside on the very edge of starvation. 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen sixties, widespread famine was averted by 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: the Green Revolution, a transfer of agricultural technology to developing 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: countries that massively increased farming yields across Asia and South 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: America and lifted hundreds of millions out of hunger and poverty. 20 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: The population in the nineteen sixties was just three billion. 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: We're now at eight billion people, and still our food 22 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: system has managed to keep up. In twenty nineteen, the 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: production of primary crops things like cereals, fruits, vegetables, reached 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: nine point four billion tons globally. That's fifty percent more 25 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: than in the year two thousand. But all that food 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: production comes at an enormous cost. Agriculture is a major 27 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 1: driver of global greenhouse gas emissions, and almost forty percent 28 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: of the Earth's surface is used for farming. That's something 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: that my guest today, environmental journalist and campaigner George Monbio 30 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: argues is a disaster for our planet. 31 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 2: The crucial environmental commodity which we should be paying more 32 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: attention to than any other environmental metric is land, because 33 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: every hectare of land we use for an extractive industry 34 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: is a hect ten not being used for wild ecosystems. 35 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: In his new book ReGenesis, George argues that the global 36 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: food system needs a radical rethink. That system can sound abstract, 37 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: but picture it as every business and relationship that exists 38 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: to bring Ukrainian wheat to Pakistan or Brazilian beef to 39 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: a butcher in Paris. This conversation is about the difficulties 40 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: facing that system, but it is also about solutions, the 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: technologies that George hopes can fix a system in crisis 42 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: and leaders to another greener revolution. We join George surrounded 43 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: by birds and bees in his community orchard in Oxford, 44 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: where his book and his examination of the global food 45 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: system begins. Jorge, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. 46 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: You open your book sitting in this orchard, pulling out 47 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: a bit of soil, and then you examine the food 48 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: system through the exploration of what's in the soil. You 49 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: write about these systems being in crisis, and you then 50 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: explore solutions to some of the crisis. Let's start with 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: the crisis. Where does the crisis in the world's food 52 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: system really begin. 53 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: It begins with the world food system. In fact, the 54 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: biggest problem the world food system faces is the world 55 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: food system, and it's beginning to look rather like the 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: financial system in the approach to two thousand and eight, 57 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: which is not a good place to be. There are 58 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 2: a number of huge, superdominant companies which have become too 59 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: big to fail, so on one estimate, four companies control 60 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: ninety percent of global grain trade, and as their operations 61 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: have become more efficient and streamlined, which might be good 62 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: for each individual business, it makes the system as a 63 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: whole less resilient. And to understand this you really have 64 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: to grasp systems theory and a complex system, which is 65 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: what the global food system is, and indeed what most 66 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: of the important things on Earth are. Is a system 67 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: composed of nodes like the knots in an old fashioned 68 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: fishing net, and the links between them. And if those 69 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: nodes become too big and too strongly connected to each other, 70 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: you lose the four elements of systemic resilience. One of 71 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: those is redundancy spare capacity that's been more or less 72 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 2: stripped out of the food system. Everything has become super efficient, 73 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: just in time delivery. Another one is what's called modularity, 74 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: the degree to which the system is compartmentalized. Well, that's 75 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: all been stripped out as well, as we've switched towards 76 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: a global standard farm, applying a global standard diet using 77 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: the same seeds, the same chemicals, the same machinery everywhere. 78 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: Then there's circuit breakers, where are the points at which 79 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: shocks which pass through that system can stop being transmitted. Well, 80 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: those have all gone as well. And then there's the 81 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: backup systems. Where are the entirely different systems which you 82 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: could switch into if you encounter a crisis. They're virtually 83 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,679 Speaker 2: non existent now. And so through this global homogenization, which 84 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: seems to make sense every individual step towards it makes sense, 85 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: we see a system that has become systematically fragile. Now, 86 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: complex systems they don't respond to change in linear ways. 87 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: They're not complicated. I mean no, it's not complicated, like 88 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: more than complicated exactly. So an engine is a complicated system. 89 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: It's got lots of moving parts, but they behave in 90 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: predictable and linear ways, whereas a complex system is composed 91 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: of billions of decision points stochastically interacting with each other, 92 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: but has this weird property of being self regulating within 93 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: a certain range of stress. But then if you push 94 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: it beyond that stress range, those self regulating circuits within 95 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: the system become self amplifying. And this is the same 96 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,559 Speaker 1: you know, whether you're looking at the global food system, 97 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: global financial system, ecosystems, the atmosphere, the oceans, the human brain, 98 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: the human body. This is how complex systems consistently behave 99 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: and so they'll absorb stress and self regulate and maintain 100 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: an equilibrium state up to a certain critical threshold. And 101 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: you describe that threshold to be flickering, that you will 102 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: start to see signs of it breaking down. And are 103 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: there signs you're seeing in the food system that respond 104 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: to this sort of flickering in a complex system? 105 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: Yes, you're quite right. So as a system approaches a 106 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: tipping point, its outputs begin to flicker and we see 107 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: things which don't seem to make any sense. Just like 108 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: in the approach of two thousand and eight, we saw 109 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 2: these wild and fallbacks in equity values, and so what's 110 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: going on here? And then suddenly the whole system was 111 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: on the verge of going down because of the subprime 112 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: crisis in the US, which wasn't a big deal in 113 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: terms of global financial flows, but it was a butterfly's 114 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: wing which nearly tipped the whole system. Well, in this case, 115 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: we're seeing those wild fluctuations in output values. Now, it 116 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: should give us a few example. So in twenty fifteen, 117 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: something very weird happened. Between the nineteen sixes and twenty fourteen, 118 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: we saw a steady decline in chronic global hunger, fewer 119 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: and fewer people going hungry. And then suddenly in twenty fifteen, 120 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: we saw that trend turn and we started seeing the 121 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: number of chronically hungry people rising and that's continued ever. 122 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,559 Speaker 1: Say, I mean, there's the pandemic that's made it worse 123 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: that this start. 124 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: This was long before. And the really weird thing about 125 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: this is that between twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen, global 126 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: food prices fell dramatically. The global food price Index in 127 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen was one hundred and fifteen. In twenty fifteen 128 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: it was ninety three, and it stayed below one hundred 129 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: right up until halfway through twenty thirty. 130 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: There's more poverty and people kind of afforded. That's why 131 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:11,119 Speaker 1: those hungry. 132 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the opposite to what you would expect. You know, 133 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: you'd expect food price is full hunger fuls, right, but 134 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: it rose. And what has been happening here is that 135 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: as the system has lost its resilience, shocks are more 136 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: easily transmitted through. So even something relatively small like a 137 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: speculative surgeon one commodity, like an export restriction by one 138 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 2: exporting nation, those shocks instead of being damped down by 139 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: a healthy system, get amplified by a system which is 140 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: becoming fragile. We and the rich nations hardly notice that, 141 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: because we've got the buying power, we've got the hard currencies. 142 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: It's the poor nations which are food insecure, which are 143 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: buying food with soft currencies in a hard currency market 144 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: or at the end of that chain, and as the 145 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: shock gets amplified through the chain, it lands on them. 146 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: And so what you see is these sudden disruptions of 147 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: supply in the poor nations which caused local price spikes. 148 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: So even while the global price is low, the national 149 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 2: price spikes, and that's what seems to have been driving 150 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: chronic hunger. So we have the pandemic and people say, oh, 151 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: there's an issue with food supply here, and then we 152 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: have Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Oh, there's an even bigger 153 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: issue with food supply, and people assume that that's what 154 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: caused it. But actually those problems, which are real problems 155 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: and definitely exacerbated it, have revealed the systemic fragility. They 156 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: haven't caused the systemic fragility. 157 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: And in twenty fifteen, of course, the Paris climate agreement 158 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: was signed. Yes, it was the World War point nine 159 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: degree celsiuswarma then pre industrial times. We're at one point 160 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: two almost now. Yes, and climate change is contributing to 161 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: some of these problems. 162 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: Well, a classic example was this year, after the invasion 163 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: of Ukraine, India stepped forward and said, don't worry, we 164 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: can fill the gap because we've got a bumper wheat 165 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: harvest coming and there's going to be this massive shortfall 166 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 2: of wheat ex sports from Ukraine. We'll make up that shortfall. 167 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: We'll become a super exporter this year. Literally, just four 168 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: weeks later, the Indian government came forward again and said 169 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: about those exports, we're imposing a total export ban because 170 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: we were hit by this massive heat wave which has 171 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: shriveled the grain on the plants, and our weak howves 172 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: is going to be much much lower than we thought. 173 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: And so what we saw there was a climate crisis 174 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: coinciding with a geopolitical crisis, and we're going to see 175 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: more and more of that, and some of the predictions 176 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: for how environmental change is going to affect the global 177 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: food supply are really terrifying. Absolutely, is staying awake at 178 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: night sweating terrifying, But. 179 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: We have to acknowledge and sit in this sort of 180 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: discomfort that this food system that we've created has been 181 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: able to supply food for the ever growing population. We 182 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: had about two billion people at this time twentieth century 183 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: who were fed, and yes there was more hunger proportionally then, 184 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: and now we have eight billion people. This year we 185 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: cross that threshold, and we are still being able to 186 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: feed them. Yes, hunger is going up, but it's still 187 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: relative to where we were at a much lower level. 188 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: So the system that's allowed us to get here does 189 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: have problems. But how do we sit with that discomfany. 190 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: Yes, so it's kind of like the man falling out 191 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: of the window and the top of the skyscraper saying, 192 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: so far, so good. It has served us well so far, 193 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: and we have been very fortunate. You know, we've seen 194 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: this great surge in food production which is outstripped population growth, 195 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: such that we now produce roughly twice as many calories 196 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: as humans need to survive on. Now, a huge amount 197 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 2: of that is wasted by being channeled through livestock, by 198 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: being used for biofuels. Some of it disappears in food 199 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: waste as well, but we can turn out enormous volumes 200 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: of food. Unfortunately, this system is now being hit by 201 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: all these causes of fragility which we're just not attending to. 202 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: And governments just don't seem interested, They don't even seem 203 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 2: to understand what's happening here. And it is like the 204 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 2: financial system before two thousand and eight, where it looked great, 205 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 2: It looked really healthy. You know, equity values were really high, 206 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: the bank shares were soaring. It was all looking great, 207 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: and then suddenly and it required this massive bailout. Now, 208 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: the thing is that you could bail out the financial 209 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: sector before it completely collapsed by drawing on future money. 210 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: You can't bail out the food sector by drawing on 211 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: future food. 212 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: What is it that got us to this point? There 213 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: are the ability for us to be able to make 214 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: food for eight billion people. What were the steps that 215 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: led us to this point? And then where in those 216 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: steps did we go wrong? 217 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: Sure, the answer is the same to both questions. That's 218 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: a curious and paradoxical thing here. The answer really is 219 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: a green revolution which moved towards these very high yielding, 220 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: very successful new varieties which respond very well to a 221 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 2: particular formula of treatment. You know, it's the same seeds, 222 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: it's the same fertilizers, it's the same machinery. You roll 223 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 2: it out worldwide, and you're producing a huge amount of food. 224 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: And as somebody who grew up in India, that was 225 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: tremendously valuable because we were on the verge of facing 226 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: hunger in levels that we'd never seen before. 227 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: No question, no question at all. I mean, all the 228 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: predictions were we were going to see unbelievable and horrendous famines. 229 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: And that system saved the lives of huge numbers of people. 230 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: But it has these inherent instabilities for all those reasons 231 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: that I mentioned, you know, and it's apparent health today, 232 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: like the apparent health of the financial system becomes ever 233 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: more illusory as time goes on because of the problem 234 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,119 Speaker 2: of systemic fragility. 235 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: And so this concentrated agricultural system that's feeding the world 236 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: right now, how exactly is it contributing to climate change? 237 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: Well, food production as a whole is responsible for roughly 238 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: one third of all our carbon emissions or greenhouse gas emissions, 239 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: even if we eliminated all other sources of greenhouse gas emissions, 240 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: if we don't tackle that by the end of the century, 241 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: it will exceed by between two and three times the 242 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: amount of greenhouse gases we can safely produce just the 243 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: food system alone. But there's an even bigger issue, which 244 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: is the carbon opportunity costs. So those greenhouse gas emissions 245 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: I'm talking about, you could think of those as a 246 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: current account, the current climate account, but the capital climate 247 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: account is the carbon opportunity costs, which means what you 248 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: could be doing otherwise if you weren't doing this particular thing. So, 249 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: for instance, if you so. 250 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: Those emissions that are generated are coming from the fertilizer production, 251 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: from changing the land user you're deforesting, and from the 252 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: manure that's coming from livestock, and all those exactly. 253 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: So the livestock themselves produced methane, their manure produces nitros oxide. 254 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: These are both very powerful greenhouse gases. But the biggest 255 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: question of all is this capital account that land might 256 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: otherwise be harboring, for instance, forests or wetlands, both of 257 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: which are very high carbon habitats, And if the forests 258 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: and wetlands are allowed to come back, they will draw 259 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: down a great deal of the carbon dioxide we've released 260 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: into the atmosphere. In fact, we now know that merely 261 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: decarbonizing our economies is no longer enough. Clearly, we have 262 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: to decarbonize them as quickly and as effectively as we 263 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: possibly can. But even if we did that, we would 264 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: almost certainly exceed two degrees of global heating. We need 265 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: to draw down some of the carbon dioxide we've already produced. 266 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: If we bring back forests and wetlands in particular, they 267 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: turn CO two into C into solid carbon, and in 268 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: doing so, they could determine whether or not we get 269 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: through this century. You know, in fact, it's very hard 270 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: to see how we're going to sustain our life support 271 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: systems unless as a mass restoration of wild ecosystems like 272 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: forests and wetlands, and the biggest impediment to that is 273 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: livestock keeping. 274 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: In your book, you mentioned this statistic which is stunning, 275 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: which is that we produce twice as many calories as 276 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: humans consume. But of course that's because vast majority of 277 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: those calories are not being fed to humans. They're being 278 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: fed to livestock, and that creates its own set of problems. 279 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, so we have this grossly inefficient system that 280 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: we've created of eating animals and it divides into two categories, 281 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: as the intensive animal production, which involves these gigantic factories 282 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: with tens of thousands of chickens or thousands of pigs, 283 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: all these giant feed lots with loads and loads of 284 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: cattle kept in horrendous conditions, massive animal cruelty being fed 285 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: on grain often shipped from the other side of the world, 286 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: particularly lily sawyer growing in the Sahardu and the Amazon 287 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: in South America, with devastating ecological consequences. And then when 288 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: they've eaten those that food, there's a huge amount of 289 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: nutrients comes out the back end of those animals, and 290 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 2: there's nowhere for those nutrients to go. They can't easily 291 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: be transported because they're very low value and high volume, 292 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: so farmers spread them on the surrounding fields. The fields 293 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 2: can't absorb them. All the surplus washes off into the 294 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: rivers and the rivers die and all over the world 295 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: now we're seeing the global standard river being created by 296 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: intensive livestock farming, which is over fertilized, which means you 297 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: get these blooms of microalgae which when they respire at night, 298 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: suck all the oxygen out of the water and kill 299 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: everything else, and so they're turning into sewers effectively are 300 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: beautiful rivers. And this is happening all over the world. 301 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: So that's the intensive livestock farming. And everyone says, oh, 302 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: we hate that, and they say, so, the answer then 303 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: must be extensive livestock farming. In other words, crazy, exactly 304 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: happy farming. And we see all the images and we've 305 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: got this long Bucolic pastoral tradition of the shepherd with 306 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: their flocks or the cowboy with the cows, and we 307 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: think that's the answer. But if there's one thing worse 308 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: than intensive livestock farming, it's extensive livestock farming. And the 309 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: reason for that is that, by definition, extensive farming means 310 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: using more land to produce the same amount of food. 311 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: That's the definitional quality of it and the crucial environmental 312 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: commodity which we should be paying more attention to than 313 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: any other environmental metric is land. And the amount of 314 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: land you use is the key determinant of whether our 315 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: life support systems survive or not, because every hectare of 316 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: land we use for an extractive industry like cattle ranching, 317 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: for example, is a hecten not being used for wild 318 00:18:54,960 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: ecosystems such as forests or wetlands or savannahs or natural grasslands. 319 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: And so we're seeing this is the biggest driver of 320 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 2: all of habitat destruction. I mean, agriculture is the worst 321 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 2: thing we've ever done to the planet. 322 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: Right it's where is that big oil? 323 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, well, yes, because of the full spectrum assault 324 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: on the planet. I mean, it causes a massive amount 325 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: of climate breakdown, more than global transport does, for example, 326 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 2: considerably more. But it also is the greatest cause of 327 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: habitat destruction by a very long way, the greatest cause 328 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: of wildlife loss, the greatest cause of extinction again by 329 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: a very long way, the greatest cause of soil degradation, 330 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: greatest source of cause of fresh water use, one of 331 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: the greatest causes of water pollution, of air pollution, and 332 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: of climate breakdown as well. And the lion's share of 333 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: a cow's share of that is caused by livestock farming. 334 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: And the more extensive that livestock farming is, the more 335 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: damaging it is because of the sheer amount of land 336 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 2: it requires to support it. There was a study in 337 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: the United States saying, what if we did what all 338 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: the food is and chefs and some environmentalists say we 339 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 2: should do, which is to switch from grain fed cattle 340 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: production to pasture fed cattle. And it looked at it 341 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: and fact, oh, yes, we would have to raise the 342 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: amount of land used to keep cattle by two hundred 343 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: and seventy percent. That would mean more than the entire 344 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: surface area of the United States. You'd have to demolish 345 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: the cities, You'd have to cut down all the forests, 346 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: you'd have to water the deserts, you'd have to dig 347 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: is at the national. 348 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: Parks, take all the golf courses, yes, worst of all, 349 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: and you would turn the whole US surface into a 350 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: cattle ranch. 351 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: And then you'd still need to be importing loads of 352 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: your beef from the Amazon, which incidentally they're already doing 353 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: and calling it pasture fed. It's an absolute environmental catastrophe. 354 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 2: The most damaging of all the farm products is organic 355 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 2: pasture fed beef. And the reason for the organic bit 356 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: of that is that organic needs even more land and 357 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: produces even more greenhouse gasome. 358 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: There's a stunning stad in the book, Rich said, we 359 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: use twenty eight percent of the land on the planet 360 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: to create one percent of protein that humans consume. 361 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the land issue is so interesting and so important. Right. 362 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 2: We all hate urban sprawl, right, and we're right to 363 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: hate urban sprawl because it's very bad for the countryside 364 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 2: and it's also very bad for our cities. But the 365 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: entire urban area that humanity uses, whether in towns, villages, whatever, 366 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 2: is one percent of the terrestrial planet's surface. Right. Much 367 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: of the rest of the world is ice cap, desert, 368 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 2: rocky mountains, which you know, we can't really use for 369 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: extractive industries, and about fifteen percent is protected area. Forty 370 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 2: percent is used for agriculture. But of that forty percent, 371 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: the twelve percent is used for growing crops, and roughly 372 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: half of that of those crops are going into livestock. 373 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: But then what about the twenty eight percent. That twenty 374 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 2: eight percent, the biggest thing, the worst thing we do 375 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 2: to the planet is entirely for pasture fed animals. Of 376 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: that from the animals which get their food from grazing alone, 377 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 2: they produce just one percent of our protein one percent. 378 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 2: This is the most wasteful, profligate, destructive way of producing 379 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 2: our food you could possibly imagine. And you might ask 380 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: yourself why in the twenty first century are we using 381 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 2: a neolithic means to produce our protein rich foods. 382 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: After the break, Jorge discusses the technologies that can help 383 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: bring farming and protein production into the twenty first century. 384 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: I want to move to the solutions part of the 385 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: book because there are different solutions. There is growing meat 386 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: and laves, there's insect protein, there is using AI for farming. 387 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: But the solutions that you put forward are much more 388 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: radicals to do away with the farm entirely. You call 389 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: it the techno ethical shift. 390 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: What is it? So? I'm not calling for an end 391 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 2: all farming. I am calling for an end of all 392 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: livestock farming. I think that we just can't afford to 393 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: indulge this way of feeding ourselves anymore. It is an 394 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 2: indulgence that the planet cannot accommodate anymore. There's just not 395 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: the space for it. If we're going to get through 396 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: this century, we have to stop livestock farming. It really 397 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 2: is as simple as that. Yeah, you like your steak, 398 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: but I quite like a habitable planet, an all state 399 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: habitable planet. Tough choice, right, So what I'm calling for, Yes, 400 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: it's the end of livestock farming, and we are incredibly 401 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: fortunate because just as we need that shift, we have 402 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: the means of doing it far more effectively than ever before. 403 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: At this point, I would go, you're talking about lapgrown meat, right. 404 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, except I'm not. I thought. I thought when I 405 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: started research for this book that lab grown meat was 406 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: going to be a big part of the answer. This 407 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 2: cultured meat where you can actually like grow your steak 408 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: or grow your lab chop, or grow your tuna, fill 409 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: it in a flask in a factory, in a bioreactor. 410 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: I think there are now just too many technical and 411 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: financial barriers to doing that at scale, not least because 412 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 2: you need to maintain clinical standards of hygiene to do it, 413 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: which is very expensive because if you don't. The issue 414 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: is that mammalian cells double every twenty four hours. Well, 415 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: bacterial sells double every twenty minutes. So unless you've got 416 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 2: clinical standards, you're going to have a bacterial culture, not 417 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 2: a mammalian culture. And that is where actually the answer 418 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: comes in bacterial cultures, because bacterial cultures are really really 419 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 2: easy to grow and super productive and much much cheaper, 420 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: not just than cultured meat, but in fact, any protein 421 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: rich food that we produce today. 422 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: Well they've had three billion years efficient. 423 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: That's right, and I was I feel very privileged. This 424 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: is a pure vanity thing. But when I went to 425 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 2: Helsinki to look at a company which was one of 426 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: the early movers in this field. It's called Solar Foods, 427 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: and it's producing this protein rich flour from a hydrogen 428 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: oxygenating bacterium found in the soil, which whose feedstock is hydrogen. 429 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 2: It doesn't eat any photosynthetic product. In fact, it turns 430 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: hydrogen into its useful energy and creates itselves that way. 431 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: And we can make hydrogen by splitting water using sunlight. 432 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 2: Anywhere on Earth, well particularly places which are hungry, which 433 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: tend to have a lot of sunlight. And so you 434 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: got this enormous potential. So anyway, I was the first 435 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 2: person outside the lab, and this is where the vanity 436 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: comes in to eat a pancake made from this bacterial flour, 437 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: a small flip for man, and amazingly, it tasted just 438 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: like a pancake. You had to dilute it because normally, 439 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, if you're making a Western style pancake, you 440 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: start with your wheat flour, right, and that doesn't have 441 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: enough protein and fat to make a proper pancake. So 442 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 2: you add eggs and milk. But in this case, because 443 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: the bacterial flower is like sixty percent protein or about 444 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 2: thirty percent fat, you have to dilute it. Otherwise you'd 445 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 2: make an omelet. So and so mix it with wheat flour. 446 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 2: You bring the wheat flour in and mix it with 447 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 2: the wheat flour. And it was just uncanny. This is 448 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: a pancake. It's just an ordinary pancake. Now, obviously they're 449 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 2: not just in the business of making pancakes, because what 450 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: you can do is to produce the exact mix of 451 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: proteins and fats and things that you need a to 452 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 2: replace animal products very very cheaply eventually, and with a 453 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: tiny fraction of the land footprint, the water footprint, the 454 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: nutrient footprint, all the key elements of what it takes 455 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: to make food. 456 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: That's even after you account for the solar farms and 457 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: the wind turbines and the electorallyzers that would split water 458 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: absolutely will be needed for all the hydrogen. 459 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: So on my estimates, you could if you wanted to 460 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: do it all in one place, and I very strongly 461 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 2: advocate that we don't, that it should be a highly 462 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: distributed system, but you could produce all the world's protein 463 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: in an area the size of Greater London. Wow. And 464 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 2: that then gives us this tremendous ability to release land 465 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: for ecosystems, for rewilding, to bring back the forests and 466 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 2: the wetlands and the savannahs and the natural grasslands on 467 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: which we depend on which our entire life support systems depend. 468 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: I mean, if we can't restore much of what we've 469 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: destroyed on this planet, the entire Earth system is going 470 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: to reach its tipping point. I mean that again seems clear. 471 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing the flickering. These wild weather events 472 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 2: that are hitting us more and more look very much 473 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 2: like the flickering in a complex system that precedes a 474 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 2: tipping point. Right. 475 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: Well, so you're looking at the food system. You're saying, Okay, 476 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 1: we need proteins and vitamins and carbohydrates and fat, and 477 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: the protein and fat could come through this system. But 478 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: we've some vegetarian diets. I grew up in India with 479 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: a vegetarian diet for a very long time. They are 480 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: not being adopted more widely. So why do you think 481 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: people would turn around and say, yes, George, you made 482 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: a really good point. That's just all flip for right now. 483 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 2: It's not going to happen like that. That's not how 484 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 2: change happened. I mean change that the margin happens. And 485 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: you know, I've got a plant based diet. You know, 486 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: a small percentage of people in Europe have plant based diets, 487 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 2: but that's no way catching up with the tremendous speed 488 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 2: of expansion of animal farming. So we can't rely on 489 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: that moral suasion to get people to change. It's partly 490 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: going to be on price. That these new technologies have 491 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: steep cost curves and it's not going to be long 492 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: at all before they undercut even the cheapest form of 493 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: plant protein, which is soil, which is a lot cheaper 494 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: than any animal protein. So they'll compete very well on price, 495 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: but also on quality. I mean the plant based substitutes 496 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: for me, a lot of them are not great, and 497 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: it's because they are dealing with these big, complex ingredients 498 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: which have to be broken down and extracted. There's a 499 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: lot of processing involved. You have to disguise some of 500 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: the flavors, particularly if using coconut, often the fats are 501 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: greasy rather than juicy. You've got a whole lot of 502 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: issues and these can be much more easily tackled through 503 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: precision fermentation, where you're making the exact proteins and components 504 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: that you want, and so you have much less processing, 505 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: much healthier products, cheaper products. You first of all, can 506 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 2: replace the great majority of the meat wheat, which is 507 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 2: the meat that comes from factory farming, that is in 508 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: all the chicken nuggets and the burgers and the sausages 509 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: and stuff, and then you can start moving up that 510 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: value chain. But even more importantly, I think we're going 511 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: to see a great flowering of new diets of things 512 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: we can't even conceive of any more than the first 513 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: Neolithic farmers to capture a wild cow. We're thinking about 514 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 2: camingber right. There's going to be a whole load of 515 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: products emerging from these new technologies which we haven't imagined. 516 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 1: There was an ad that came in two thousand. I 517 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen it. A spaceship in the 518 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: form of a Coca Cola bottle lands on Mars. It 519 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: shoots out straws and all the aliens martians come and 520 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: sip on the Coca cola and finish it up, and 521 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: then they form a message on the planet that says 522 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: send more cocoa. That is the kind of aspiration that sells. Clearly, 523 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: do we need a send more coke version for this 524 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: new form of eating. 525 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: Well, it certainly needs a publicity boost because a lot 526 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,239 Speaker 2: of people say, oh, I'm not eating bacteria, and I say, well, 527 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 2: hang on a minute. First of all, you eat bacteria, 528 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: that's right. In fact, worse than that, you're composed to 529 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 2: a large extent of bacteria, and we deliberately add live 530 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: bacteria into some of our food. I mean, I mean, 531 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: let's let's think about cheese, right, Okay, So cheese. You 532 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: start with the mammary secretions from from another species called 533 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: a cow, and you mix those traditionally with a chemical 534 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: extracted from the fourth stomach of a nursing calf called rennet, 535 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: and you mix that up with the mammary secretions. You 536 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: create this wobbly mass of fat and protein, right, and 537 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 2: then you inject bacteria into that, and the bacteria digests 538 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 2: that wobbling mass, and then they're excrements turn into this yellow, 539 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: stinky stuff and if you leave it long enough, it 540 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: gets really nice and stinky and moldy. And then we 541 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: eat that yea, and people say, ook bacteria no, no, no, yeah, 542 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: hang on a note. You know what we're looking at. 543 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: What's coming out the end of this process is basically 544 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 2: a flour. It's just a protein rich flower, that's what 545 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: it is. It happens to be made from bacterial cells. 546 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: But you wouldn't see the difference between that and any 547 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: other flower except it's incredibly high in protein and fat 548 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: and you just smell it and think, oh, well, that's nice, 549 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: you know, because we've got a very strong attraction to 550 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: protein right as humans. And then you can turn that 551 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: into anything without all the cruelty, without the epidemics of disease, 552 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: without all the slaughter house and the blood and the 553 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 2: guts and the gore and stuff. And do you think 554 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: microbial feed is disgusting? 555 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: So the other solution, if we solve protein and fat 556 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: with these precision fermentation thats is to try and address 557 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: the crop problem. And you look at perennials. 558 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is I think a really exciting way 559 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: forward here. The great majority of our grain crops come 560 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: from annual plants. In other words, plants which live and 561 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: die within one year. And now large areas covered by 562 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: annual plants are quite rare in nature, and they generally 563 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 2: only occur in the wake of a disaster, so where 564 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: there's been a landslide or a fire or a volcanic eruption, 565 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: and it clears the ground, and the annual plants are 566 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: specialists in colonizing bare ground, and so they'll quickly colonize it. 567 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: They'll reproduce very fast, dominate for a couple of years, 568 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: and then the longer lasting plants are perennials, which live 569 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: more than one year. They then come in and swallow 570 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: up that space and push the annuals out. So almost 571 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: all our grain crops are annual, and that means that 572 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: to grow them, we need to create a disaster every year. 573 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: We need to clear the land, and we do it 574 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: either by plowing or by spraying, and then we carry 575 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 2: on spraying to kill the competition and to kill the 576 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: pests which might eat these very tender little shoots which 577 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: are coming up. And then we have to splash on 578 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: the fertilizer and use loads of water and really pamper 579 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: them to get them going. And it's a catastrophic system. Now. 580 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: For the past one hundred years or so, some scientists 581 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: have had the dream of replacing these annual crops with 582 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: perennial crops because they see the enormous difference that could 583 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: make in terms of environmental damage but also potentially food security. 584 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: And finally, at last, that dream is being realized, driven 585 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: primarily by this group called the Land Institute in Selina 586 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: in Kansas. One of the crops has gone all the 587 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: way and is fully commercialized and it's a variety of 588 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: rice which they've developed with unan university in southern China. 589 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: Already there's many thousands of hectares of this rice being grown. 590 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: In some cases, it's been harvested six harvests continuously and 591 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: is still producing the same meals as annual rice produces, 592 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 2: and the farmers are desperate for it. A because there's 593 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: much less soil erosion involved. You don't have to plow 594 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 2: every year. I mean eventually you have to replace the crops, 595 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 2: but after several years rather than every year. And secondly 596 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: that they're desperately short of labor because a lot of 597 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 2: the young people have moved to the cities. And of 598 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 2: course you don't have to plant every year. So I've 599 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: eaten this rice. It's just the same as any other 600 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: short grain rice. You know, I really would could not 601 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 2: tell the difference, and then they're developing a whole series 602 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: of other grain crops now types of wheat or related 603 00:34:53,280 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 2: species to wheat, barley, sorghum, sunflower, beans, peas, lentils. Not 604 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: all of them have gone very far down the line. 605 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: Some of them are progressing faster than others, but they're 606 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 2: tremendously exciting, not just because you create less environmental damage 607 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: in growing them, but also because they appear to be 608 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 2: more resilient to environmental crisis. So, to give you an example, 609 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 2: the Land Institute is developing this very promising perennial sunflower, 610 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 2: and it's been growing its blocks of perennial sunflowers alongside 611 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: blocks of annual sunflowers, and one year it was hit 612 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 2: by a major drought, completely wiped out the annual sunflowers, 613 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 2: and the perennials just sailed through. And the reason for 614 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: that is their roots are down deeper, their structures above 615 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 2: ground are tougher and more robust, and yeah, they just 616 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 2: shook the drought off. Well. 617 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: Now, the solutions you are suggesting may take the same 618 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: industrial route that some of the solutions that are now 619 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: problems have taken. So you might get consolidation, you might 620 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: get these varieties being grown. You know, just like we 621 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: have big agriculture, we might have big fermentations. Yes, and 622 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: so would that be okay? 623 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 2: Well no, I mean we have to be constantly on 624 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 2: our guard against these tendencies, the tendency towards concentration, the 625 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: tendency towards monopoly. There was a time when governments were 626 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 2: they had strong anti trust laws, they had weak intellectual 627 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: property laws. But it's it's turned on its head now 628 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 2: and we now have weak anti trust laws and strong 629 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 2: intellectual property laws. And that creates consolidation and drives the 630 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: process and mergers and acquisitions as corporations try to concentrate 631 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: intellectual property in one place. And that is deadly. It 632 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: doesn't matter which sector you're looking at. It's harmful to competition, 633 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: it's harmful to human welfare, it's harmful to workers. I mean, 634 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 2: right across the board. This is bad news. And we've 635 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 2: been given this great gift to humanity, which is precision fermentation, 636 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 2: which has come along just when we need it most. 637 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: Are we going to squander this by allowing a few 638 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 2: big corporations to control Well, no, we must fight that. 639 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: And you know the problem is not the technology it's 640 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: the same with all of these issues. It's the control 641 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 2: of the technology, it's the ownership of the technology, and 642 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: that is something we need to get ahead of. And 643 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: instead of just sort of sitting there and waiting for 644 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: it to happen, we need to be campaigning vociferously to 645 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 2: ensure that we have a distributed food system rather than 646 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: a concentrated food system, because that's one of those elements 647 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 2: of resilience. If it's still got its backup systems and 648 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: the circuit breakers and the modularity within the system which 649 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: a distributed and diverse food system can give you, then 650 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: it's much more likely that the system as a whole 651 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 2: is resilient than with this kind of situation we've got today. 652 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: Now, capitalism has its problems, yeah, but one thing it 653 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: does is while it's concentrating capital, it also makes things 654 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: more efficient, and some of the solutions you're suggesting need 655 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: to become more efficient. And so how do you split 656 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: the problems that capitalism brings with the advantages that it does. 657 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 2: Have is a very good question, and the answer always 658 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 2: is regulation. I mean, I would love to see much 659 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 2: more public ownership. Incidentally, and I don't just mean state ownership, 660 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 2: but community ownership. I mean, this orchard where we are 661 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 2: today is part of a commons which is managed collectively 662 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,479 Speaker 2: by the two hundred and twenty plot holders who run 663 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 2: this allotment system. Now, you can have a commons with technology, 664 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 2: and you know, Linux is a classic example of a 665 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: technological commons. You can have it with open source technology, 666 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 2: you can have it with creative commons licensed technology. And 667 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 2: I want to see far more of our economy directed 668 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,439 Speaker 2: into the commons. But even within the capitalist economy, which 669 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 2: is a totally different economy to the commons, we need 670 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 2: to see far more regulation, far more response to the 671 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: generalized needs of humanity rather than just the needs of shareholders. 672 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: And with food that is more of an issue than 673 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: in virtually any other sector, because well, we all kind 674 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 2: of depend on it. 675 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: If there was a billboard outside of your house, what 676 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: message would you put on it? 677 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: Ah, that's a good question. Private sufficiency public luxury explain that, Yeah, 678 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 2: there's enough ecological space on Earth and enough physical space 679 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 2: for us all to have wonderful public parks and public 680 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 2: tennis courts and public swimming pools and public transport networks 681 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: to have luxurious public domain which we share. But there's 682 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 2: simply not enough for us all to have private luxury. 683 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: You know, some people have private luxury only because other 684 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 2: people don't. I mean, if everyone had their own swimming 685 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: pool and tennis court and the rest of it, London 686 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: would be the size of England, and Englan would be 687 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: the size of Europe. Where would everyone else live? And 688 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: there's not enough ecological space as well. So we can 689 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 2: have our own private sufficiency, our own small domain at 690 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 2: home where our basic needs are met. But if we 691 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 2: want luxury, we do it together. 692 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: That was a fascinating conversation. Thanks for coming on the show. 693 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 2: It was a total pleasure. It's really great. You asked 694 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 2: all the right questions, sir. Thank you. 695 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: Food is such an integral part of our lives, but 696 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: we rarely think about how it's produced and it's stunning 697 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: impact on the planet. If the numbers in our conversation 698 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: didn't already blow your mind, I'd highly recommend reading George's book, 699 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: Read Genesis. The solutions he lays out may seem fanciful, 700 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,919 Speaker 1: but they can work, and they're not the only technologies 701 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: we have to tackle this problem. Thanks for listening to Zero. 702 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe. 703 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: Tell a friend, or tell your favorite farmer. If you've 704 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: got a suggestion for a guest or topic, or something 705 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: you just want us to look into, get in touch 706 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is 707 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine Riskell. Our theme 708 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: music is composed by wonderly many people help make the 709 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: show a success. This week thanks to Samarsadi, a podcast 710 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: producer in London who makes sure that the growing podcast 711 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,959 Speaker 1: team always has food to eat. I'm Akshatrati back next week.