WEBVTT - ‘Finding Renée Richards’ with Julie Kliegman 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:03.720 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're all 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.400 eyes on wings fire Tonight Dallas can clinch the final 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:09.560 WNBA playoff spot with a dub. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:11.440 It's Tuesday, August. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.200 Twenty fifth, and on today's show, we're skipping the need 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:15.600 to Know and getting straight to my conversation with author 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.400 Julie Kleegman about their new book, Finding Renee Richards, The 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.639 Groundbreaking Story of Tennis's trans Pioneer. We discuss how a 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.400 fact checking question changed a major part of the book, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.240 the one topic Julie wishes they pushed Renee on for 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.199 more answers, and how much Julian Renee differ in how 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:37.000 they view trans identities. Plus who wore Ellie Best? Don't 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.479 stop here? And friend trips and gay shit. It's all 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:52.000 coming up right after this, Joining us now. They're the 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.800 author of the new book, Finding Renee Richards, The Groundbreaking 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.040 Story of Tennis's trans Pioneer, and a copy editor at 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.680 Pro Public Up. They're a regular guest on podcasts, and 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:02.800 their writing has appeared in outlets including The New York Times, 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.720 Sports Illustrated, The Washington Post, The Ringer and Defector. A 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.600 copy etter and copy chief at multiple outlets. They've also 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.520 taught journalism to undergraduates, a Northwestern grad themselves. They also 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:14.960 wrote mind Game and Inside look At the Mental Health 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.840 Playbook of Elite Athletes. And we've both dressed up as 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.560 Ellie the Elephant. It's Julie Clegman. Hi, Julie, Hi, Sarah. 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:22.240 How's it going? 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.440 I mean, I have to say my Ellie was more complete. Oh, 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.800 the jersey, I had the hair, I had the full 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:32.839 ensemble all the way down to the Jays. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:38.399 But your Elephant was suitable. It was good enough. Huh, Okay, serviceable. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:39.039 I should say. 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.560 You know, in some iterations I have had a jersey 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.720 and a braid. So I think you just need to 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:45.520 catch up. 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:47.440 Yeah, okay, I need to do more digging. 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:47.880 Yeah. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.440 I settled for the first Ellie, but there were multiple 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.800 iterations of your Ellie journey. I'm so excited to talk 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.840 about this book. I found it fascinating, and I find 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.120 Renee Richard's story in general fascinating, but knew very little 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.360 about it. So learning so much about her through this 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.120 book was really a gift. But before we get to 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.280 all the takeaways, I want to ask how you came 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.720 to write it and how you earned Renees trust in 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.000 order to talk to her for so much of the book. 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:15.560 Yeah. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.720 I came to write the book because I had an 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.320 assignment from another magazine called book Forum to write about 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.840 a couple of Rene's memoirs, and that was basically my 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.239 introduction to her. And I was like, well, if I 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.520 don't know this story, who else doesn't know this story? 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.800 Probably a lot of people. And so I earned her trust. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:34.560 I don't know. We emailed. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:36.680 She wrote me back like after a day to my 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.480 first email, which was great. I mean, to her credit, 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.400 she was so receptive to talking. We jumped on the phone, 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.400 and then I went to visit her and got lunch 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.959 with her and her platonic partner. I think we just 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.160 kind of hit it off, and you know, I was patient. 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.720 I didn't push for an immediate answer, which I think 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.920 was helpful, and ultimately, I think part of it was 0:02:57.960 --> 0:02:59.880 just catching her at a good time. She was ret 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.480 hiring from ophthalmology, and I think retirement is a good 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:06.800 of time as any to reflect on your life and 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:08.720 to talk to someone about. 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.920 It well, and certainly not the first time. 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.280 And you benefited from the fact that there is a 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.120 ton of source material in the form of previous books 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.480 Second Serve nineteen ninety nine spy Night Renee as someone 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:22.920 who has spoken a lot about her life and career 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.120 and journey, and being able to pull from all that 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:27.880 also offered you a lot of insight to how she 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.840 felt about things in that time as opposed to now, 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.440 or how her opinions and feelings changed over the years. 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.240 So it was really really helpful to have you be 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.720 able to pull from all that source material. You know, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.040 I wonder as someone whose fame was mostly gone by 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.400 the seventies, which was well before you were even born, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:49.280 but as a non binary trans person, why going backwards 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.960 into discovering and understanding her life was so meaningful to you. 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.160 I think a lot of people think that the trans 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.680 athlete debate we're having sort of came out of nowhere, 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.280 and I knew that wasn't the case because I had 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.640 heard of her, and I think going back is really 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.320 important to understand what she faced at the time, and 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.520 that's important from a historical perspective. It was also important 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.240 to me as a trans person, just because there are 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.320 so few trans athletes that we can learn from and 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.480 who have competed at such a high level. As Renee has, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.280 and that meant a lot to me. Whether or not 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.200 she's a perfect, you know, kind of spokeswoman for the 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.320 trans rights movement, which I think she would be the 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.000 first to admit she is not. It's still, yeah, important 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.640 to understand people in all their complexities, and I really 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.440 appreciated that part of this process. 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.240 And I frankly did not know much about what it 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.840 would be like to be trans and to transition and 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.719 get the advice and help of psychologists and medical professionals 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:50.320 and everybody else at that time, So that was really 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.080 fascinating too. To your point, as a spokesperson for the 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.560 trans community, not only is she unwilling or uninterested in 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.760 being that, but there is so much what feels like 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.080 internalized homophobia and transphobia to her. That is such a 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.279 bigger part of this story that I want to get into. 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:12.560 And that also played into how you wrote about her, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.960 and it went against the guidelines for writing about a 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.120 trans person, And can you take me to those conversations 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.200 and the battle that you had with what you felt 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.880 was the right way to write about her transition and 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.360 her life as Renee, and how she wanted you. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.880 To talk about her sort of duality. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.840 So for those who may not know, in journalism, when 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.840 you're writing about a trans person, similar to if you're 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.440 talking about a trans person in real life, you want 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.200 to use their current name and their current pronouns, regardless 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.440 of how they identified or what they called themselves in 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.679 the past. So that was the approach I had taken 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.920 into writing this book, and that was how the first 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.000 draft of this book was set up. And it wasn't 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.640 until a fact checking conversation with Renee where I ran 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.320 through all these questions I had for her, and then 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:00.560 kind of at the end of I was like, by 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.479 the way, this is how I'm referring to you. And 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.240 I guess part of me knew that she might have 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.320 an issue with that, or I wouldn't have said anything. 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.560 She really really had a problem with me using Renee, 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.599 and she her to refer to her experiences pre transition. 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.400 So she's like, how would it make sense to say 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.520 that she pitched a high school baseball game, for example, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.279 And so I think that's a really interesting divide. Part 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.279 of it is generational. I think I'm so much younger 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.120 than her and norms have really changed a lot since 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.800 her heyday, And the other part of it is just 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.440 her identity and how she sees herself and how she 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:42.480 saw herself as Dick Raskind wrestling with Renee Richards emerging, 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.680 and the push pull of those two identities as she 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:48.320 saw them. 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.719 I think it works really well understanding the guidelines and 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.560 knowing them, and yet in reading it does give a 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.560 little bit of clarity, especially in the way she viewed 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.400 to your point, Renee sort of like pushing back, coming 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.560 back over and over again and insisting that she was 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.000 the real identity that needed to be acknowledged and fed 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.960 in a way, and that's easier to sort of display 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:12.760 when you write about it the way you did. 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:14.040 Yeah, and it's fascinating. 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:15.920 You know. I read an interview you did about the 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:17.640 book and you said, I want readers to wrestle with 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.680 the complexities of a prominent transfigure who holds views that 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.920 may be uncomfortable, and to acknowledge that a trans elder 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.000 came up in a different time, dealt with everything in 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.320 a different time, and might have a different belief system 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.400 because of that time. Is complicated, but doesn't mean that 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:34.880 their story should be discarded. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:36.920 It can still be discussed. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.640 And the way you do that by inserting yourself as 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.480 the author occasionally is really useful because it doesn't just 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.360 acquiesce to her desire, it acknowledges it and also provides 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.000 the context and nuance required to understand why other people 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:52.680 might not believe the same or agree with that, and 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.840 it really makes for a really fascinating read. I want 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.400 to get to a little bit of her bio before 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.360 we get into some of the takeaways, So for those 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.280 who aren't super familiar with the arc of her life, 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.080 I'd love for listeners to get a little bit of 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.160 a big picture bio from you, of course. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:11.480 So, Renee Richards is a transgender woman who transitioned in 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.520 the mid seventies, and she had played tennis as a 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.760 man when she was identifying as Dick Raskind in New 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.200 York growing up, and she was a pretty good male 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.800 amateur player. This was before the Open era, so she 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:31.640 didn't turn professional playing against men, but she transitioned moved 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.000 out to California because at the time, when you transition, 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:36.880 that was just sort of what was done, is like 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.840 you would kind of start over in a different area. 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.280 And by the way, Renee is French for reborn, so 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.400 that plays into it too. So she's in California and 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:51.120 she's playing tennis and she gets outed by Tucker Carlson's dad, 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:52.400 who was a TV reporter. 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:54.560 That through line really sings. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.480 Yeah, exactly, and that's how she starts playing tennis under 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.840 the name Renee Richards and she becomes famous as she 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.120 sues for her right to play in the nineteen seventy 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.880 seven US Open and she wins. 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.520 Okay, I want to go back to the youth because 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:15.720 there's a fascinating dynamic between Renee and her sister and 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.720 mother and also father. And you even acknowledged that Renee 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.520 thinks about nature versus nurture in the case of her 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.720 being trans that, yeah, she acknowledges that you could try 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:29.959 to create a line from the treatment that she received 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.720 from her mom and sister to her decision to transition, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:34.920 But that there are so many trans people who don't 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.560 have to do any of that searching into a childhood 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.559 to find something that might be a provocative moment. They 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.040 just are trans. They were always trans and it has 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:45.800 nothing to do with that. Can you share some of 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.160 those stories from being a kid, and particularly at that time, 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.920 how many people probably would have seen that as the 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.640 root quote unquote cause of Renee's decision to transition from 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:57.720 a very young age. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:02.200 Rene's mother and sister kind of forcibly addressed her in 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.960 women's clothes. They thought it was cute and funny. There 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.520 was a really memorable Halloween where they dressed Dick raskind 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.120 up as a little girl and she, I guess passed 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.040 at a Halloween party. And at the same time, Renee 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.720 was feeling this sense of shame because she felt like 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.720 the whole world could see her and knew that she 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.840 was part of her at least was at peace with 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:29.440 this this costume, this attire. Josephine, Renee's sister, was by 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:34.120 Renee's account, abusive at times. And by the way, I 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.840 couldn't talk to Josephine for the book, she has dementia, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.400 as I understand it. So yeah, there's this really complex 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.040 family dynamic where her sister is occasionally her abuser, and 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:50.040 her mother is very overpowering, definitely runs the household. Her 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.200 dad is by all accounts more mild mannered and kind 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.959 of takes a back seat, but loves her very much. 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.640 And so yeah, there's this question of nature versus nurture 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:04.760 for and also for the doctors and psychological professionals she'd 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.080 go on to see, and I think at the time 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.160 it was the common wisdom that this experience is what 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.920 led to Renee's transgender or at the time transsexual identity. 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.240 Dick Raskin was what Renee was called as a youth, 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.760 and David was her dad, and Renee trying to reconcile 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:27.360 some of those youthful experiences with also what was usually 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.560 a mild mannered father, except for when it came to 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:31.200 things like sports. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:31.480 Right, right. 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.240 So, one of the quotes from the book, Renee said, 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.680 when I would lose my father especially would let me 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.640 know how disappointed and ashamed of me he was, and 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.040 immediately this would trigger in me a period of doing 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.240 a lot of dressing up in women's clothes. If I 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.280 can't be a successful boy, I'll be a girl. That's 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:51.240 something Renee Richards told a previous biographer, and that sort 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:56.000 of thing too, of even Renee associating failures as a 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.880 quote unquote man, which is not really what was happening. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:00.559 If you lose the tennis match, it's not failing to 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:02.520 be a man, that's just losing a sport. But with 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.840 the desire to then get further away from that identity 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.160 is another kind of like young through line. You know, 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.360 that this idea of escaping from things by leaning into 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.840 the part of herself that she sometimes didn't want to 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.840 acknowledge but was unavoidable and kept coming back. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.520 Yeah. Absolutely, I mean there are a couple of through 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.920 lines through her life, especially the first half of it. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.079 One is tennis being a refuge for her. But yeah, 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.720 when that failed, she would kind of sink deeper into 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.560 the Renee side of this stick raskin personality, I guess, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.440 and dress up more so it was an outlet in 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.880 a way, even if she would rather it didn't exist 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:45.199 at all. 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.720 One of the most fascinating things in this whole book, 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.400 as I alluded to earlier, is what it feels like 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:04.840 internalized transphobia for Renee. She is of the belief that 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.520 there is a life as Dick and a life as Renee, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.640 and there is no transition, there's no moment of in between. 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.040 She actually says, my identity has always been from Dick 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.960 to Renee. Whether you think of Dick as ultramasculine partially masculine, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.560 or Renee as ultra feminine partly feminine, whatever it doesn't 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.400 make any difference. There was Dick, there was Renee. You 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.520 can attach any kind of sexual ranking, label, profile to 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:35.160 each person, but not trans. Trans to me is in between, 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:40.440 and I was never essentially trans. How did you reconcile 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.079 that belief that it was a switch almost that flipped 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.160 from one to the other and never an in between. 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.160 Well, it's a little weird for me because as a 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.080 non binary person, I kind of relish that in between. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.320 So that's one way in which we see trans identity 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.320 as being super different. I wouldn't say Renee has a 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.120 great understanding of it means to be non binary. And 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.200 I'm also, to be fair, not sure how well I 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.600 was able to articulate that to someone who has such 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.439 a binary understanding of gender. 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.640 Right, and she's in her nineties now we should remind folks. 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.120 I guess they're unaware of how old she is. 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.760 Yeah, and so I think it was interesting comparing views 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.280 like that. And Yeah, it was to the point where 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:24.040 she even didn't like saying, yeah, I am a trans woman. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.280 She prefers to say I'm a woman, which is certainly 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.800 her prerogative, but I think it's at odds with a 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.440 lot of the way that trans people talk about their 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:33.360 identities today. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.800 I've never had this conversation with someone, and I'm curious 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.360 about that, because trans women are women. Do you feel 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.360 like the trans is necessary or does it make sense 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.920 that she would say, I am not trans anything. 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:47.960 I'm a woman. That's who I am. 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.600 That's how I've always known my identity, and that's how 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.280 I present. Where is the trans in me being a 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:55.800 woman at this point? 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.280 Right? I think that's such a fair question, and I 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.120 would say that at the time that she was growing up, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.800 it makes a lot of sense that she never wanted 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:10.200 to identify with the trans label, because the whole goal 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.520 at that time, and you know it still is today 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.880 for some people, was to pass in the gender you 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.160 felt like you were right, and so that was how 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.920 you avoided discrimination and prejudice. So it makes total sense 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:25.560 to me that she doesn't want to be seen as 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.320 like other Attaching the label trans wasn't a means of 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.080 identifying with a community as it is for me. Yeah, 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.080 for her, it was something to avoid. 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.320 I wonder if also, and you obviously would know better, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:42.080 but maybe embracing the trans word means embracing being part 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.480 of the in between and that's not of interest to her. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.680 She hopes that people don't see her that way, and 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.800 that's part of that internalized transphobia throughout. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.440 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I guess for me, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:58.080 I wish she could embrace the joy that comes with 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.840 being trans, or that at least can come with being trans, 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.560 despite all of the hardship we face at times. But 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.480 you know, it's how she identifies. She's like we said 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:12.000 in her nineties, I don't think this vio is going 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:13.400 to change, and I think that's okay. 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.320 Yeah, you mentioned she was forced to come out publicly. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.840 Tucker Carlson's dad, Richard Carlson described as a scoop hungry, 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.880 award winning San Diego broadcast journalist intent on uncovering what 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.840 he'd heard about this sort of mysterious tennis player. And 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.840 I wonder if you think that Renee would have pursued 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.520 professional tennis anyway, or do you think the fact that 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.000 she was outed meant that she didn't have to consider 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.800 hiding in tennis because originally she wanted to play in 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:41.560 club tournaments. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.560 She wanted to compete, but wanted. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.240 To do so while being able to live this new 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.440 life undiscovered Once she's outed, it's like, well, I'm out. 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:50.840 Should I just keep playing and at the highest level 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:52.720 I can find? Do you think that would have happened anyway? 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.720 Renee doesn't like being told no, So I think it's 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.440 no surprise that once she was out in and there 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.840 were all these questions about whether she would be eligible 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.480 to play in the Open. I think once that happened, 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.080 she was like dead set on, like now I must 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.520 play in the Open. But if she hadn't been outed, 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.639 I don't know. I mean, it seems kind of inevitable 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.840 to me that she would have been outed eventually, if 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.240 not then and there by that person, then by someone else, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.520 because she really just couldn't resist playing tennis, which is 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.159 such an understandable impulse because, like I said, like that 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.760 had been her comfort area growing up and something she 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.520 had loved throughout her life as Dick and as Renee. 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.120 So to lose that I think would have been near 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.400 impossible for her, and it also would have been near 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:47.040 impossible to conceal her identity right forever. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:47.920 Yeah. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.240 Well, and not even to lose it wholeheartedly, but not 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.240 to keep pursuing it at the highest levels, like that 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.080 competitive side of it was very important, the winning of it, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.560 not just the playing of it. The push and pull 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.840 is so dominant in her life. I mean that language 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.600 sounded very similar to the language around her saying I 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.679 want everyone to know my opinion on this, but I 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.640 don't want anyone to come and ask me about it. 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.280 Right Like throughout there these moments where she wants to 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.439 be a voice on things but also doesn't want anyone 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.200 to come ask her about them. And it's that sort 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.520 of like she can't resist the ophthalmology side of things. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.080 I did not know, and not just that I knew 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.720 that she was a doctor, but that so celebrated, so accomplished, 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.000 and the success that she had as an ophthalmologist before 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.600 moving to California post transition and deciding to really get 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.280 into tennis, and then going back to ophthalmology all the 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.080 way up until she was basically eighty years old. And 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:45.080 it inspired a headline that you mentioned in the book, Doc. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:46.680 Says, do as I say, not as I do. 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:52.080 And it comes back to the very personally curious person 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:57.000 that she is deeply excavating her own feelings about identity 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:02.160 and herself, but largely uneducated, unexplored person when it comes 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:08.000 to other people's journeys with identity and gender, and I 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.800 wonder if you ever pushed back on that or asked 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.360 her why the exceptions were for herself and for those 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.040 she knew quite well, and not for others. 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.359 Yeah, honestly, that's an area where I wish I had 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.399 pushed a little bit more. And how she views other people, 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.880 especially other trans people. I think she is someone who 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.080 has some trouble thinking outside of herself and her own experiences, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.359 and I think there are understandable reasons for that. She's 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.040 been through so much, and at the end of the day, 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.240 I think it can be kind of exhausting to consider 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.960 everything you've been through and also stay open minded to 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.440 how other people's experiences may have been different. But yeah, 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.199 I mean, I also think part of this is like 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.560 her doctor brain, because she is like, well, in my mind, 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.639 the research is settled, and the research shows that trans 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.160 athletes have unfair advantages, and if she had known that, 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.400 she wouldn't have pursued the lawsuit. Of course, we knew 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:06.600 very little about this at the time. There was no 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.560 research on trans athletes. Even now, there's very little research 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.680 on trans athletes, and I should say it's far from 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.560 a settled issue. There's no conclusion that trans women and 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:24.280 girls have serious, real tangible advantages over cisgender women and girls. 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.159 But I think in her mind she has decided the 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.960 issue is settled, and therefore, you know, she thinks. There's 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.360 a quote in the book about how trans women might 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:36.600 have to accept that there are women in ninety nine 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.840 percent of respects, but not that last little one percent. 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.959 Yeah, she says, I think maybe the transgenders, which of 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.520 course is her language, should be happy that they can 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.119 live their lives in socially accepted realms as women and 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.920 not insist on being allowed every privilege of their newly 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:52.760 arrived sex. 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:54.000