1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: This special episode the Romance Roundtable is brought to you 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: exclusively by Audible. Do you love a good love story? 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: side of you. You may love a story about a 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: deliance with a duke, or perhaps the sexy billionaire, set 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: in the big city, or at the hockey rink, or 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: in another realm with dragons. Here modern rom coms from 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: authors like Lily Chew, romantic series from Sarah J. Moss, 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: and Rebecca Yarrow's Regency favorites like the new Audible original 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: Pride and Prejudice, plus the really Steamy stuff. Your first 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: great love story is free when you sign up for 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: a free thirty day trial at audible dot com. Hello, 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: we are here for More Happier, a podcast where we 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: get happier. Today's episode is a special edition in our 15 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: Roundtable Conversation series, and the topic today is romance because 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: for so many of us, romance is an important aspect 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: of a happier life, so it's a great subject for 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: a roundtable discussion. The three of us are here today 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: to talk it over. I'm Gretchen Riven, a writer who 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: studies happiness and human nature, and I'm host of the 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: Happier with Gretchen Rubn podcast, and here today are my 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: two terrific guests. First, Stacy Abrams Stacy S. 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: Stacey Abrams is. 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: A best selling author whose romance novels, written under the 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: pen name Selena Montgomery. I love the idea of having 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: a pen name, explores themes of passion, justice, identity, and power. 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: Her latest book, Coded Justice, is a legal thriller that 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: takes on questions of technology, ethics, and accountability with romance 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: woven in too. 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: You may also know her. 31 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: As a nationally recognized political leader and voting rights advocate. 32 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: She served as Minority leader of the Georgia House of 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,919 Speaker 1: Representatives and found it Fair Fight Action and other civic 34 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: organizations to expand voting access and representation. 35 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: Hello, Stacy, thank you so much for having me. 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: Gretchen, it's so fun to have you here, and I 37 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: am also excited to be talking to Laurie gottlieb. Laur 38 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: Gottlie is a psychotherapist and New York Times best selling 39 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has 40 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: sold more than three million copies. In addition to her 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: clinical practice, she is also co host of the popular 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: Dear Therapist podcast and writes the Ask the Therapist column 43 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: for The New York Times. Hello, Laurie, so great to 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: be here, Gretchen, Well, it's so fun to be here 45 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: today to talk to you too about the state of romance. 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: So in fiction, Stacy, that's your lane, the reality of it, Laurie, 47 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: that's your lane. And then where the two of these 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: meet in our daily lives. And I think we all 49 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: have some stock ideas of what romance looks like. But today, 50 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: let's talk about what romance really means today in our 51 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: modern lives in twenty twenty five. Let's get into it, 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: the mysteries and science of attraction, maintaining passion, practical suggestions for. 53 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: Making and keeping connections, and. 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: What we value most these days in our most intimate lives. 55 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: And let's start what's fiction with Stacy. I am someone 56 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: who loves fiction, and I really place tremendous value on 57 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: the role of fiction in our lives. We can learn 58 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: so much about human nature by studying novels. Plus, what 59 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: is more fun than reading nothing? So, Stacy, when you 60 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: think about building romance into your stories, how do you 61 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: think about that element? 62 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 3: I always start with what's the most honest way to 63 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 3: connect people, Especially when you're writing suspense, which is what 64 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: I write, whether I'm writing romantic suspense or legal thrillers, 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 3: I'm already suspending disbelief about what's happening around them. People 66 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: don't get shot at this often by you know, nefarious 67 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: or party or being threatened by rogue AI. So the 68 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: question is if you're going to create a human relationship 69 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 3: that has to feel so grounded that the absurdities makes sense. 70 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: And starting there means having characters that you know well 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: enough to understand what do they like, what don't they like, 72 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: and what do they need? And often romance is about 73 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: finding someone who is what you need, but that you 74 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: are something that they need, And constructing a novel you 75 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: have to think about how do you unravel and reveal 76 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 3: each of those pieces and set it up so that 77 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: it happens in between you know, mayhem and torture. 78 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: Well, when you say what people need, what kind of 79 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: things do you think of as what people need? 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 3: So, for example, my very first romance novel, it was 81 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 3: a spy who basically felt responsible for the death of 82 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 3: people around her, including the death of the best friend 83 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 3: of the man she was in love with He was 84 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 3: angry with her, had given up his back, and he 85 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: basically abandoned his career because he could not trust. And 86 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: so she needed to find someone who understood her and 87 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 3: could help her forgive herself. And he needed someone who 88 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: could push him past his suspicions and his instinctive rejection 89 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 3: of the And so they had to find each other, 90 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: but they had to navigate the fact that maybe sort 91 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 3: of she killed his best friend, and they had to 92 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 3: save the world while. 93 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: They were doing it right. So by in need, it's 94 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: very specific. 95 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: That's so interesting that will say, it's typically a poor 96 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 3: need that we if we were told articulated, we could, 97 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 3: but it would take talking to Lori first and later 98 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: on out. But you can usually tell that with most people. 99 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: We kind of know with our friends this is a 100 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: person or this is a gap, and you don't want 101 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 3: someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who 102 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 3: helps you understand how to make yourself better. So I'm 103 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: also very intentional about never having the solution to a 104 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: problem be another person's, having another person help my main 105 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: character find their own solution. 106 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: Interesting. 107 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: Now, have you noticed a shift in what readers expect 108 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: from romance in fiction today? As opposed to like ten 109 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: years or twenty years ago. Are there's certain tropes or 110 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: themes that fall in and out of favor that you've noticed. 111 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 3: I mean, certainly in the early eighties early nineties, hyper 112 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: masculinity was a big part of the romance novel genre. 113 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: We've seen that hypermasculinity necessarily be reduced, in part because 114 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: it often was a cloak for non consent or for 115 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 3: an aggressive approach to romance that was a bit of 116 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: a shorthand I don't have to deal with my issues 117 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 3: because I could just sweep you up in an embrace 118 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: and tell you who you need to be. But I 119 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 3: think it's also women because I write from a woman's perspective. 120 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 3: It's making sure that the women who are at the 121 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 3: center of the novels have as much agency in who 122 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: they want to be with as they do in the 123 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: fact that they're going to fall in love and what 124 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: they do with their daily lives. 125 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: And just back to sort of what you were saying 126 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: before about you want to write something that feels real 127 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: and that people can really identify with. But you're in 128 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: these tremendously heightened circumstances that most of us do not face, 129 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: and seem sort of extreme. How do you balance that 130 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: idea of the fantastical or the idealized elements in rome, 131 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: which is part of what people like in romance, and 132 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: also the sense of realism that people can connect with 133 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: because we want both things at the same time. 134 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: That seems hard to manage. 135 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: Well, when I'm writing a suspense novel, my theory is 136 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: I can write something that is improbable but not impossible. 137 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: When it comes to romance, you want to write things 138 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 3: that are idealized but not absurd, meaning that you are 139 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 3: going to have the conversation instead of talking past each other, 140 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: you are going to confront this instead of pretending you 141 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 3: didn't see the note. 142 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: It's idealized in the sense that people behave better than 143 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: they would. 144 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: They eventually do. 145 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: They make the mistakes, and you can't follow a journey 146 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: if there aren't detours. But I try to make certain 147 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 3: that you're not screaming at the book. Just do this 148 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: unless if you're screaming, it to be because you're encouraging, 149 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 3: not because you're frustrated and about to throw the book 150 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 3: across the room. And I think the fantastical elements that 151 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: tend to happen are ones where problems get automatically solved 152 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: or worse, where those problems aren't real and they're just 153 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 3: in the heads of the person that to me. And 154 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: this is back to the tropes making sure we no 155 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 3: longer dismiss legitimate pain or pretend that legitimate pain can 156 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: be overcome with a good kiss and a good romance. 157 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: Like a very easy resolution. You feel like that's not 158 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: satisfying anymore. That's not giving people the working through of 159 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: a problem exactly. 160 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 3: They want to join you in the journey, but they 161 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 3: want to believe that when they leave you behind and 162 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 3: can't come and visit you on Thursday, that you're still 163 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: going to be okay. And if you have the sort 164 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: of sort of damocles of emotional harm hanging out there, 165 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to be worried about you. 166 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 4: Mm hmm. 167 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 3: So now I need to know that you at least 168 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: now have the tools to navigate once I close the book. 169 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you're trying to build characters that really feel 170 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: like they're related to each other, so part of it 171 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: is that need that they're fulfilling. But what else do 172 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: you do to make it feel earned and natural? Because 173 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: I almost think that this is something that people do 174 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: look to fiction as kind of a model for like 175 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: how do people have conversations or like how would you 176 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: handle that moment of engagement? Do you listen to people 177 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: that you over here in a coffee shop? How do 178 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: you listen so that it has that ring of truth? 179 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 180 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 3: So in Coded Justice, which is a legal thriller, there 181 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: is a relationship Avery Keane, my main character, has a 182 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 3: boyfriend that she met the first book under very dark circumstances, 183 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: and they're still together, but there's a tension that's developing. 184 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 3: There are other people who might like her, and she's 185 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: got to figure out where does she sit. And so 186 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 3: one of the scenes in the book is a conversation 187 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 3: that she has first with her best friend. And so 188 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 3: I think it's important that you have a broad canvas 189 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: of people. So, yeah, so I've replicated conversations I've had 190 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: with girlfriends. Girlfriends have me where I'm like, you do 191 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: know what you've said, you do know what that is, 192 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: And so you know that conversation you have where you're 193 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: telling what happened from your point of view, yes, and 194 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: then your best friend's like, you are full of sick, 195 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 3: what did you actually think happened? So I have that 196 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 3: kind of scene, and then I have a scene where 197 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 3: they actually don't directly confront what's happening, but they both 198 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 3: know there's something And so I think, before you jump 199 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: to the resolution, and you owe the reader the journey 200 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 3: of both sides understanding there's something happening. And so I 201 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: try to make sure there are small scenes that really 202 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 3: signal we all know what we're seeing without there having 203 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: to be a lot of exposition. Because to your point 204 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 3: about conversation, we learn most in dialogue and writing. It's 205 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: easier to tell than it is to show, and I 206 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 3: try really hard to find ways to show the dynamic. 207 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 3: It may be a hand on the small of her back, 208 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 3: it may be her leaning her head against his shoulder 209 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: or bringing him downer, but it's something that signals that 210 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: I know something has happened. And in addition to the 211 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: big conversation we have to have, let's show the small 212 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: elements of relationship that feel familiar, so that when the 213 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: next terrible, crazy thing happens, I believe enough in you 214 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 3: that I'm going to trust you to come back and 215 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 3: make it better. 216 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you're reading and all that is so 217 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: satisfying to see those small changes happen. 218 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: That's what gives it that ring of truth so interesting. 219 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: Well, coming up, we're going to hear from Lori Gottlie 220 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: about the realities of modern relationships that she has observed 221 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: as a therapist and also in her own life. But 222 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: before that, I want to say thanks to our sponsor today, Audible. 223 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: Do you love a captivating love story? Are you hungry 224 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: for a romance that will transport you to another place 225 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: in time? You can find whatever you're looking for with Audible. 226 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every 227 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: side of you. Do you enjoy a love story featuring 228 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: a duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. Do you prefer 229 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: a story set in the excitement of a big city, 230 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: in the charm of a small town, at a busy ranch, 231 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: or a bustling college campus, or maybe on a movie 232 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: set at the beach or by a hockey rink. Do 233 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: you seek out stories set in the distant past, in 234 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: the familiar present, or in the remote future. Or maybe 235 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: nothing on this earth satisfies your imagination and you want 236 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: to find love in another realm with dragons. Maybe you 237 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: love a story in which friends become lovers or enemies 238 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: become lovers. Or maybe you love a story of a 239 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: second chance or forced proximity, or a love triangle. That's 240 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: one of my favorites. I love a good love triangle. 241 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: You can find all those stories and more with Audible. 242 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: With Audible, you can hear modern rom coms from authors 243 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: like Lily Chew, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. 244 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: Moss and Rebecca Yarros, regency favorites like the new Audible 245 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: original Pride and Prejudice, plus all the really steamy stuff. 246 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: When it comes to what romance you're into, you can 247 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: find anything and everything you're looking for with Audible. Audible 248 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: is the leading creator and provider of premium audio storytelling. 249 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: Audible excites the imagination with stories and ideas that open 250 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: you up to more possibilities. Listening can change your mood, 251 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: your life, maybe even the world. Listening gives a break 252 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: from the every day and allows you to dream bigger. 253 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: And if you've never listened on Audible before, here is 254 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: a great deal for you. Your first great love story 255 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: is free when you sign up for a free thirty 256 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: day trial at audible dot com. 257 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: That's right, your. 258 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: First great love story is free when you sign up 259 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: for a free thirty day trial at audible dot com. 260 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: And now let's turn to some observations and insights from Laurie, 261 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: and then we'll have a conversation with all the three 262 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: of us at the end. But first, Laurie, you deal 263 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: with people. I'm sure relationships come up all the time. 264 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: What do you think are some of the major misconceptions 265 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: about romance that people have these days? Maybe from their 266 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: own upbringing, maybe it's from the media, maybe it's from fiction. 267 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: Do we have any ideas that just aren't very helpful? 268 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is that 269 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 4: people think romance needs to be really big, like the 270 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: grand romantic gesture, and sometimes the most romantic thing is 271 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 4: the really small thing. Yeah, it's like he was saying, like, 272 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 4: did the person put their hand on the small of 273 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 4: your back when you were entering a restaurant? The little 274 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 4: things that they notice about you. There's such an intimacy 275 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 4: around just being noticed and understood, and so a romantic 276 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 4: gesture is just maybe something a little bit unexpected because 277 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 4: we need a little mystery to it. But that happens 278 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 4: to come from a grounded place and not a let's 279 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 4: do this huge thing, and that's going to be romantic 280 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 4: because it doesn't feel personal and it doesn't feel like 281 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 4: you're really known. So the more that the gesture includes 282 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 4: something very specific about you makes it incredibly romantic. 283 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: So you think people have this kind of idea that 284 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: you need to have this promposal Instagram grand gesture with 285 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: one hundred roses or something, whereas in fact, what really 286 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: makes people feel loved and seen is when you're like, oh, 287 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: I saw your favorite, super random flavor of ice cream 288 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: in the drug store, and so I brought some home 289 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: for you. 290 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Or it's like, you know, I'm going to 291 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 4: make this dessert that I know you love, but it's 292 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 4: a surprise you coming from a day at work and 293 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 4: you were. 294 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 5: Not expecting that, and that's incredibly romantic. 295 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 4: So it feels it seems like it's domestic, but it's 296 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 4: actually romantic. 297 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: Is there anything else any other kind of big watchouts? 298 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: That's very useful to think about, both on the receiving 299 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: end and on the giving end. 300 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 4: I would say I think that people put too much 301 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 4: pressure on the need for romance, So romance comes organically. 302 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 5: The best romance is something that naturally happens. 303 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 4: Of course, you have to be intentional about it, but 304 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: you don't want to put pressure on it. So when 305 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 4: they're like Valentine's Day, everybody's trying so hard to be romantic, 306 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 4: and most people end up saying, I had the worst 307 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: time at this restaurant with you know. It was like 308 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 4: this beautiful restaurant, but it didn't feel romantic at all, 309 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 4: you know, or the flowers or this or that. There's 310 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 4: sort of these expectations of these symbols like, yeah, it 311 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 4: has to be flowers or. 312 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 5: Jewelry or whatever. 313 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 4: These symbols are of romance that don't tend to really 314 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 4: speak to I think what can be an elevated sense 315 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 4: of romance. It reminds me I had this couple and 316 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: the woman was saying to her husband, you know what 317 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 4: the most romantic words you could say to me? You 318 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 4: know what three words I would really like to hear more. 319 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 4: And he, of course said, I love you. I need 320 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 4: to say I love you more. 321 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 5: She said, no, it's I understand you. 322 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 4: She's like, that is so romantic when you say I 323 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 4: understand you. It's so intimate to be understood fully by 324 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 4: this person that you know that you have this chemistry with. 325 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: Well, now, when people are so busy, there's so much pressure, 326 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: there's so many demands on our time. Do you think 327 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: people give priority to their romantic relationships these days? Do 328 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: you think that is something? I mean, people are certainly 329 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: drawn to reading about romance. They love reading about romance. 330 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that they in their own lives they're 331 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: making it a priority. 332 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 4: I think they aren't making it a priority as much 333 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 4: as they could. I think that's why partly why Stacy's books, 334 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 4: which are excellent anyway, but I think that's why people 335 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 4: want to read about it, because they feel like, wait 336 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 4: a minute, I need more of that that's missing in 337 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 4: my life, and so I think that people need to 338 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 4: think more about it, but again in these smaller ways. 339 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 4: I love what Stacy said earlier about sort of the 340 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 4: intersection of mayhem and torture. I thought was an app 341 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 4: description of romance. 342 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, right. 343 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 4: So it's like you want it to be something that 344 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 4: feels different and exciting, but you know, like when you're 345 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 4: in the beginning of a relationship and it feels so 346 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 4: romantic because you're. 347 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 5: Like, will this person call me? Do they like me? 348 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 4: What's going to happen next? Are we going to kiss 349 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 4: on this date? You know what's going to happen? Are 350 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 4: we going to end up in bed together? It's all 351 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 4: that sort of the torture of like waiting between dates, 352 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: and then there's the may have of just it takes 353 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: you out of your everyday life. So I think when 354 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 4: people want to focus on romancing, do you think what 355 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 4: would take us out of our everyday life? 356 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 5: Right? 357 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 4: Yes, Like it could be the simplest thing of let's 358 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 4: go dancing. We don't do that, like, let's just go dancing, right, 359 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: it's the simplest thing, or even things that make you 360 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 4: feel like doing something that does not feel like your 361 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 4: daily thing, like let's go to an amusement park and have. 362 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 5: This scary experience on a roller coaster. 363 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: That research that shows that if a couple does something 364 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: that elevates their heart rate, they read it as emotional, 365 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: like even though it's just like, no, that's just roller coaster, 366 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: but you get to fake. 367 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 4: It, right, and you're also you're in this heightened state. 368 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 4: And I think you know it's when you're doing an activity. 369 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 4: So you know a lot of people say, well. 370 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 2: Fighting crime exactly, you have to really. 371 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 5: Up the ante there. 372 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, But I do think that some people will say Oh, 373 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 4: it's really romantic if we're like sitting on the couch 374 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 4: watching Netflix. And it can be really romantic if the 375 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 4: mood is right and you have the setting right. But 376 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 4: it's also really romantic to do something completely out of 377 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 4: both of your ordinary experiences, you know, like going on 378 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 4: the roller coasters or taking a dance class or whatever 379 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 4: it is. 380 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: Well, speaking of torture and mayhem, let's talk about the 381 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: dating apps and online interactions. How has that changed the 382 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: way people develop a romantic connection these days? Is it 383 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: making it easier to fast track to intimacy. It's kind 384 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: of a different courtship. How do you see that playing out? 385 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 4: I think it's much less romantic. So so many of 386 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 4: my therapy clients are using the dating apps and they're 387 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 4: all talking about how they're missing that element of courtship. 388 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 4: They're missing that element of first of all, discovery, getting 389 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 4: to know someone. You know, You've got all this information 390 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 4: on an app and then you project onto it. It's like, oh, 391 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 4: this person likes this music. That means they must be 392 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 4: like this kind of person, and so you have all 393 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 4: this sin of preloaded information. 394 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 5: But also there's not a lot of focus. 395 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 4: On one person because people will go on a date, 396 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 4: they will say, oh, I had a pretty good time, 397 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 4: and then they go home and there's there's more notifications 398 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 4: on their app and they're like, what about this person? 399 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 5: What about this person? 400 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: And so it becomes more job interviewing than it does 401 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 4: looking for being curious about another person and seeing who 402 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 4: they are, and that the excitement. There's the romance of 403 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 4: discovering who another person is. And when you feel like, well, 404 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 4: I'm just looking at these profiles, it's like looking at 405 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 4: a lot of resumes and it feels like people are 406 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 4: looking at your resume and it doesn't feel like there's 407 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 4: that intangible jin say quah that's happening between the two 408 00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 4: of you. 409 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: It just makes it much harder. 410 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: Well, what are some unspoken rules or expectations that seem 411 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: to govern modern romance that might have been different in 412 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: previous generations? Are there different rules or people confused about 413 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: how to go forward? 414 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 4: I think that the rules would be more helpful. So 415 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 4: people went through this phase where they rebelled against the rules. 416 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 4: There are so many books that say throw out the rules, right, 417 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 4: and there are certain rules you don't want to have 418 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 4: because they're kind of manipulative and passive aggressive. But I 419 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 4: think certain rules like if you're not interested in someone, 420 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 4: don't ghost them. Those kinds of rules, Right, People think 421 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 4: that there are no rules at all, and so then 422 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: people get very hurt. 423 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 5: People don't know what to expect. People don't know what 424 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 5: is expected of them. 425 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 4: Yes, someone might be interested in you, or you might 426 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 4: be interested in them, and you think, well, them are 427 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 4: supposed to wait a day? 428 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 5: Am I not supposed to wait a day? 429 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 4: Well, they think I'm not interested if I wait too 430 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 4: long or I don't wait long enough. Do I feel 431 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 4: pathetic and desperate to them? So you know, people don't 432 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 4: know what the rules are. And I think it's kind 433 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 4: of like what we need as an aquarium. So before 434 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 4: there was kind of a fish bowl. The rules were 435 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 4: too constrictive, and then it just became an ocean where 436 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 4: nobody knows what they're doing and everyone's kind of lost 437 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 4: just swimming around. And I think we need more of 438 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 4: an aquarium where it's These are the conventions that most 439 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 4: people go by, and it kind of gives you a 440 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 4: sense of understanding, Well, what does the person mean by that? 441 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 4: Or can we communicate this in this way? 442 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: Well, it's funny that you say that because I took 443 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: a watercolor class and the teacher was so committed to 444 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: saying that there are no rules and there's no right 445 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: way and wrong way that when somebody was asking about 446 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: three point perspective, she was just like, clearly, there is 447 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: a way to do that where it looks like you 448 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: have perspective, and yet she didn't want to say that was. 449 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: The right way to do it. 450 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: And I was like, it's okay, you can say this 451 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: is the rule for how to like draw that way. 452 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: But I think there is this feeling like there should 453 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: be no rules, but then you don't know how to 454 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: behave properly. And I wonder, Stacy, do you think that 455 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: this is part of why fiction is satisfying because it 456 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: is a universe where you sort of understand it feels 457 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: more understandable why people are doing what they're doing, and 458 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: you are sort of in this place where you do 459 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: understand the rules or the universe that you're in, whereas 460 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: now it's like you're playing by your rules. 461 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: Somebody's got their own rules. It's hard to navigate. 462 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean part of it is there's the rule 463 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 3: that it's romance, which helps constrain I mean to Laurie's 464 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: point about the fifth bowl in the ocean. Yeah, you 465 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 3: at least want to know that you're in water. 466 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 467 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: I was talking to a guy where he was like, oh, 468 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm always friends with women. They always want to be 469 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: friends with me. But he didn't want to use dating apps. 470 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: And somebody's like, but the thing about a dating app 471 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: is you can say I'm looking for a long term 472 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: relationship and they'll know that's what you want. Because you 473 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: keep getting friend zoned. You need to tell people that 474 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: you're looking for romance exactly. 475 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 3: And part of writing romance well is being clear about 476 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 3: the intention, even if the person doesn't intend to fall 477 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 3: in love, but you know that, so you're on the 478 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: journey of discovery when they realize they're wrong, or the 479 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 3: person is looking for love and you're with them as 480 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: they stumble through. But it gives the reader a reason 481 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 3: to stay, and I think to Laurie's point, if you 482 00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 3: don't have a reason to be there, you don't have 483 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 3: a reason in the stay. And that's where rules help. They 484 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: help give us at least guardrails help. Otherwise we're falling 485 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 3: off the side of bridges and you can't fear extending 486 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 3: the metaphor way too far for a writer, but you 487 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: do want the ability to have some not constraint on 488 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 3: who you are, but some guardrails so that you also 489 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 3: have guide for where you're trying to get to. 490 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: Right, well, do you think both of you tackle this? 491 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: Do you think that there is a way that fictional 492 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: portrayals of romance help people understand their own relationships or 493 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: navigate their own relationships. I mean, even if they are 494 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: somewhat idealized. But do you think it does help people 495 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: make sense of what they're experiencing or do you think 496 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: that maybe because it's idealized, does it raise their expectations 497 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: too high? 498 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: What do you think? 499 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 3: So I'm gonna let Laurie tell me if I'm messing 500 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 3: up people's lives first, and then I'll tell you what 501 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 3: I think. 502 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: Okay, oh yeah, okay. 503 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 4: I think that people might have unrealistic expectations, but I 504 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 4: also think that at least they're getting so sense of 505 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 4: what that excitement can look like. You know, especially for 506 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 4: people in today's world where they don't get a lot 507 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 4: of romance where they can say, oh. 508 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 5: You know what, I would like some of that in 509 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 5: my life. 510 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 4: I would like to be more intentional about getting some 511 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 4: of that in my life. And I think the other 512 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 4: thing that Stacy said earlier was about how we don't 513 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 4: want to complete another person, but another person can help 514 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 4: us become complete by motivating us to fill in the 515 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 4: gaps in our own lives. And so there's this saying 516 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 4: we marry our unfinished business that we definitely are a 517 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 4: You know that chemistry when we talk about romance, that 518 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 4: chemistry initially is often a little bit of there's something 519 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 4: that's kind of unfinished in you, and you kind of 520 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 4: see it in the other person and they kind of 521 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 4: see it in you, and there's this chemical explosion that 522 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 4: happens now coming back to reality. Then when you get together, 523 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 4: you have to see, well, is this the kind of 524 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 4: a healthy unfinished business that we can help each other 525 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 4: with and help each other grow, or is this something 526 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 4: where we're trying to get the other person to complete us. 527 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 4: But I love what fiction does, and fiction kind of 528 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,719 Speaker 4: shows us the ways in which we can have a 529 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 4: healthy version of that. 530 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: And I wonder sometimes if you see an unhealthy version 531 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: play out, maybe that's useful too, because you say, like, oh, 532 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: I recognize this pattern. Oh I've had that conversation myself 533 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: and let's look how it's playing out in a way 534 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: that's not good. 535 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, well what do you think, Stacy. 536 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, And my novel never tell it's a it's my 537 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: serial killer romance novel. But the intention was to show 538 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: a young woman who had been in a terrible, toxic 539 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 3: relationship trying to find her way. She did not want 540 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 3: to fall in love. But there's a scene, one of 541 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: my favorite scenes to write. She is talking to another 542 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 3: young woman who's had a similar background and similar experience, 543 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 3: and she says something to the effect of, you know, 544 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: I can believe in you for you until you can 545 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 3: believe in yourself. And there's something about romance that lets 546 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 3: us believe that the possibility is out there, even if 547 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 3: we can't see it right now. It's waiting for us. 548 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 3: And I think the fictionalized version is a renewal system. 549 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: It says, as long as people are writing about romance, 550 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: as long as they are talking about what's possible, it 551 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: gives us the sense that maybe the look and the 552 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 3: search can go on. It's the hardship is when we 553 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: forget that we are not those characters, and we expect 554 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: the other person in the relationship to respond the way 555 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: the character did in the book. Yes, and so part 556 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: of your responsibility is to recognize that we may have 557 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: read the book, but the other person hasn't, and so 558 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 3: we've got to have some grace for that. But we 559 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 3: also have to remember that we're not that idealized character either. 560 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 3: And I think where fiction can be so helpful is 561 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 3: it's a mirror to who we are and are not, 562 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 3: but it's also a roadmap to what else we want 563 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 3: to be. 564 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: Do you think that that does happen sometimes where people 565 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: almost are like I'll play this character and you'll play 566 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: that character, like I'll say my lines. Now you need 567 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: to say your lines. But that's not how relationships work 568 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: in real life. And yet you can get sort of 569 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: drawn into this thinking there are sort of a play 570 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: that could be played out. I've seen that in my 571 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: own life with people, and it's just like, you're not 572 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: both in the same play. 573 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 4: Also, I think there's something to remember that our partners 574 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 4: will disappoint us and we will disappoint them m hm. 575 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 4: And so you know, I think when people have this 576 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 4: romantic checklist of I want all these qualities and the 577 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 4: person has to be like this, and they have to 578 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 4: know what to say, and they have to be charming 579 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 4: and funny and every moment. Well, first of all, I'm 580 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 4: not realistic. But also it's not just what is on 581 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 4: your list. I'll say to people, Okay, so that's your list. 582 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 5: Of what you want. 583 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 4: Make a list now of all the things that someone 584 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 4: would have to put up with to be with you. 585 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: Yes, that is a great exercise. 586 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 4: Because then you have a little more grace for the 587 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 4: other person. It's that you know you also are a 588 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: human being, and you also have things that might not 589 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 4: be in their script of romance either. 590 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 5: And yet what I think is great about romance is that. 591 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 4: It transcends those things that people then say, Look, I'm 592 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 4: not perfect, you're not perfect. We don't hold each other 593 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 4: to these perfect standards. And there's some thing incredibly romantic 594 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 4: about and I love you deeply for all of who 595 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 4: you are, including that, and you know, all the other 596 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 4: good parts. So it's not just like with romance. I 597 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 4: think where people get kind of tripped up is they 598 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 4: think only the good parts are part of it. But 599 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 4: there's something so romantic about being loved for the entirety 600 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 4: of who you are, which might not fit into the 601 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: rubric of what you would maybe put on a list 602 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 4: of what's romantic. 603 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things I use in my 604 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 3: novels is just always in the back of my head 605 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 3: is the line from the musical Rent you know, I've 606 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 3: got baggage, You've got baggage. I'm looking for baggage that 607 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 3: goes with mine. 608 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: Oh yes, and. 609 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: I'm misquoted, So I've got baggage. You've got baggage to anyway, Yeah, 610 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 3: they're the peerist who's going to be mad at me. 611 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: But the whole point is that last line, I'm looking 612 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: for baggage that goes with mine. And to Lori's point, 613 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 3: part of it is we've got to a knowledge our 614 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 3: own baggage. And I think the richest characters that I 615 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 3: write the books I love and go back to the 616 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 3: baggage of the characters is what I'm want. I want 617 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 3: to see what you've done wrong. I want to know 618 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: how I can map differently. But it also is a 619 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 3: reminder that it's okay that I'm a little broken and 620 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 3: I don't need you to fix me. I just need 621 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 3: you to recognize that the broken pieces are there and 622 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 3: that I'm still worth the investment. 623 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: I think some of the most exciting and transcendent moments 624 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: of connection, either that I've seen in novels or Intellivision shows, movies, plays, 625 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: is when there is a moment where you can see 626 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: that someone is making a choice of how to respond 627 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: and they're sort of like, are they going to respond 628 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: the way they've always responded or are they now going 629 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: to see that there is a possibility to make a 630 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: bigger choice and to do something with more grace and love. 631 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: And then when they do that, and yet Stacy back 632 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: to your point, is like, it has to feel earned, 633 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: it has to feel like somebody would actually do in 634 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: the moment. But when they make that choice, it does 635 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: make you feel like there is a possibility for more 636 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: love in the world. There is an opportunity for people 637 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: to make a different choice that is the more loving choice. 638 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: And Laurie, I imagine you see these moments in your work, 639 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: and it's just whenever you encounter them in li or 640 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: in fiction, it's like, that is what is so exciting. 641 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 4: I think there's something I often say with couples, which is, 642 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 4: before you say something, imagine how it's going to land 643 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: on the other person. And there's something about those moments 644 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 4: where the person couldn't do it, couldn't do it, couldn't 645 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 4: do it. And then you see it happen right in 646 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 4: front of you, where all of a sudden they make 647 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 4: a different choice and they say it a different way, 648 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 4: and you see the result in the Parker Because we're 649 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 4: all doing this dance and so if you change your 650 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 4: dance steps, the other person's going to change their dance 651 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 4: steps too, or else are going to fall off the 652 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 4: dance floor or leave the dance floor. And so when 653 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 4: you make that twice, when you imagine what is it 654 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 4: going to feel like? When I say this, how's it 655 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 4: going to land on the other person? They're going to 656 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 4: have a totally different reaction to you too. 657 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: And I'm sure you practically see like a light bulb 658 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: going on over their heads, you know, yeah. 659 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the things that surprised me 660 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: most like in writing about happiness is we can't change 661 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: other people. But when I change, a relationship changes, and 662 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: when a relationship changes, the atmosphere around us changes, and 663 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: so sometimes we do change other people just by changing ourselves. 664 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 4: What I like to say is we can't change other people, 665 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 4: but we can influence other people to change mmmmmmmmm. 666 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: Stacy, do you think that reading romance novels makes people 667 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: more loving or do you think sometimes people just read 668 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: it for just the joy of it and they it 669 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: doesn't really sink in or both Maybe I'm just curious. 670 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: I think it's both. I think when you read a 671 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 3: really good romance novel that has rich characters who have 672 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 3: earned their joy but who have also changed in a 673 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 3: way that feels authentic and accessible, it stays with you. 674 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 3: Because the book stays with you, that character stays with you, 675 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 3: and it's hard to have something living in your head 676 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 3: that doesn't influence who you are. So I don't think 677 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 3: it's these seismic moments, but I do think there's influence. 678 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 3: And for people for whom it's just a skim and move, 679 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: they're not really diving deep so that you're going to 680 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 3: see a lot of change. But at least during the 681 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 3: times they're reading, they're not out there being mean. 682 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 5: So there's that. 683 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: And Laurie, what do you think do you think that 684 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: reading romance can help people to see like a different path. 685 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 4: I think there's something really hopeful about reading romance. Yes, 686 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 4: I think we really need a sense of hope. 687 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: It's hopeful. That's a sollly good word for it. 688 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 4: So yes, the characters are idealized and they're saying the 689 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 4: right things eventually, you know, as they go through their journeys. 690 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: But I also think it gives us hope that we 691 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 4: can change too, that we can have something different, that 692 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 4: if we are more aware, we can maybe have the 693 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 4: kind of thing that we want with a partner. 694 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 5: So I find them incredibly hopeful. 695 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: Okay, last question for each of you. I always like 696 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: to ask us if they have a tried this at 697 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: home suggestion for listeners, something simple and concrete that they 698 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: could do in their everyday lives to make their lives 699 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: in this case, more romantic, to bring more romance into 700 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: their lives. 701 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 2: So, Stacy, do you have a suggestion? 702 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 3: So I talk about the four quadrants that Dwight Eisenhewer had. 703 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 3: Things that are important and urgent, things that are important 704 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 3: but not urgent, things that are urgent but not important. 705 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: But my favorite section is the not important, not urgent. 706 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 3: We rarely let ourselves go there, and I think that's like, 707 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 3: at least once a week, make certain that you and 708 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 3: your partner are doing something that's not important and not 709 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 3: urgent and if you don't have a partner, do it 710 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 3: for yourself so that you're ready when you meet someone, 711 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: because you've given yourself this chance to decompress. You didn't 712 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: change anything, you didn't help anybody, and that was perfectly okay. 713 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: Well, and you're not marching through a to do list 714 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: or like racing around a hardware story. You just let's 715 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: just stroll down the street and exactly. And I love 716 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: it because everybody talks about the other quadrants, but nobody 717 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: talks about that quadrant. 718 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 3: I am a firm believer and not important and not urgent. 719 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: I love that, Lorie. How about you, Chris By? 720 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 5: I love that so much. Yeah, not important, not urgent. 721 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 4: I feel like I needs to be a mug yeah, yes, 722 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 4: and a life practice. 723 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: Yes. 724 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 4: I think that something that people undervalue about romance is 725 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 4: the sense of being delighted in by the other person. Yes, 726 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 4: there's that sense of this person is just delighted to 727 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 4: be with me, and I'm just delighted to be with 728 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 4: that other person. But we forget that in our daily lives. 729 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 4: You know, we're like going through things. You know, we 730 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 4: know the other person loves us, but do they delight 731 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 4: in us? 732 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 5: So some things that. 733 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 4: My therapy clients have found is that when they do 734 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 4: something that shows their delight, it's the smallest thing. You know, 735 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 4: I delight in the way that they laugh when this happens, right, 736 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 4: and you really make it clear that you delight in 737 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 4: that in that moment. I think just sharing how much 738 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 4: you delight in the other person the smallest thing. It 739 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 4: does not expensive, it's not a big deal. 740 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 5: You don't have to plan it. 741 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 4: It's just when you notice yourself delighting in your partner, 742 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 4: communicate that. It just changes the entire environment in the room. 743 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 4: And I think it's something that we don't share enough. 744 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 4: We might be thinking it, but we don't actually share it. 745 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 4: And even if you don't have a partner, when do 746 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 4: you delight in yourself? What are those moments when you 747 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 4: delight in yourself? Can you take a moment and say 748 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 4: that was delightful? I really love that about myself. 749 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: Well, I love that we're ending on the notes of 750 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: delight and not our and not important. 751 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 2: That sounds so enticing. 752 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: So thank you, Laurie, Thank you Stacy, And that is 753 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: it for this Romance Roundtable episode of Happier. Thank you 754 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: to Stacy Abraham, said Lori Gottlieb for this terrific conversation. 755 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: It was so much fun thanks to our producer Chuck 756 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: Reid and too Audible. Remember the best time to start 757 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 1: a happiness project is twenty years ago. The second best 758 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: time is now. Thanks for listening to the Romance Roundtable, 759 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: which was brought to you exclusively by Audible. Do you 760 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: love a good love story? The Audible Romance Collection has 761 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you. You may 762 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: love a story about a dalliance with a duke or 763 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: perhaps a sexy entrepreneur. You may love one set in 764 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: the big city or at the hockey, or in another 765 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: realm with dragons. Here modern rom coms from authors like 766 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: Lily Chow, We're Mantacey series from Sarah J. Moss and 767 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: Rebecca Yarros. Regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride 768 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff. Your first great 769 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: love story is free when you sign up for a 770 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: free thirty day trial at audible dot com. 771 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: Go to Audible dot com.