1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. We talked about Charles Drew 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: and Blood Banks this week, and it was the episode 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: that we had to take the most composing ourselves breaks 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: in a long time. I think, yes, it's for both 7 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: of us. Yeah, the whole last portion. I mean, I 8 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: feel like I haven't enough to take breaks because I 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: get emotional. But um, yeah, that one was a lot 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: of like read a paragraph, we both wait a minute. Yeah. Um. 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: One of the things I originally had in the outline 12 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: that I wound up taking out was that one of 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: the reasons there were so many doctors who had trained 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: at Howard who were living in Winston Salem was a 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: hospital called Kate B. Reynolds Memorial Hospital, which was nicknamed 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: the Katib at the time that this happened. This was 17 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: one of the biggest hospitals for black patients in the 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: United States, and it was also home to a nursing 19 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: school for black nurses. UM. Winston Salem was the closest 20 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: city to where I grew up. I did not know 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: that this ever existed. It closed a couple of years 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: before I was born, and as I was sort of 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: trying to track, I was like, why, like why were 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: there so many like specifically how to like where were 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: people practicing Winston Salem? And I found out about the 26 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: KATIB and I got a little choked up about it. 27 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: I was like, I think this is something I feel 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: like I should have learned as somebody whose entire K 29 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: through twelve education happened in the Winston Salem for scythe 30 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: County school system. Well, but you know, I didn't know 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: until just now. Another thing that came up as a 32 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: parallel um was there was that passage that Charles Drew 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: had written a letter to one of his his former 34 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: coaches where he was talking about how there wasn't like 35 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: a surgical tradition at Howard training Black surgeons, And it 36 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: reminded me of our episode on Vivian Thomas UM, who 37 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: if you do not recall, Vivian Thomas was an enormous 38 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: part of developing a surgical treatment for a condition called 39 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: te Trilogy of Fellow And UH did that um under 40 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: a white surgeon. He was a surgical technician, and so 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: we had a conversation in that about how uh Dr Blaylock, 42 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,119 Speaker 1: who he had been working under, was like had had 43 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: some regrets that he had not sent Vivian Thomas to 44 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: medical school, but if he had, what his likely role 45 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: would have been as a doctor, which probably would have 46 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: been UM, practicing in a hospital or a private practice 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: or whatever with black patients. Um, which was like really 48 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: the same point that Charles Street was making. M. Vivian 49 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: Thomas's work was like just a few years after that, 50 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: not long after that at all. But it's still sort 51 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: of an example of how few opportunities there were for 52 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: black doctors and surgeons to like make groundbreaking discoveries in 53 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: the world of medicine because of the systems of racism 54 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: that were in place, and even if they made them, 55 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: they couldn't move forward in their careers, right right, Also, 56 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: obviously there are still huge healthcare disparities along racial lines today. 57 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: That is not something that has disappeared. Did not solve that. No, 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: I um have a thing in this episode for which 59 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: I'm deeply thankful, okay, which is to have another instance 60 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: of a couple who got married very quickly, it seemed 61 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: very happy. Yeah, well, there we didn't get into this, 62 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: but there were some things about their relationship that did 63 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: seem to be a little challenging. Like one of the 64 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: things he really seemed to like about her was that 65 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: he was really passionate and she was really grounded, and 66 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: so it felt like she sort of anchored him in 67 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: some ways. But that also seems to have sometimes led 68 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: him to feel like he didn't have the kind of 69 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: passionate connection like. So, like, there were some ways that 70 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: I think their relationship was sometimes difficult, and the fact 71 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: that he was at work so much and was separated 72 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: from them so often, UM and then tragically died at 73 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: just such an early age where their children were all 74 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: still really little. Just as a married my person very 75 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: quickly person. I'm happy for any instance where that doesn't 76 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: turn into and then the whole thing collapsed in a 77 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: crunchy pile of flames. Because people shouldn't do that. I Like, 78 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: sometimes they should write right, sometimes they should m h um, 79 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: Just just a personal note of appreciation on that one. 80 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: You talked at the end of the episode about um 81 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: the issues around HIV and blood donation. Yeah, I didn't 82 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: know if you wanted to expound on that any further. Yeah, Like, 83 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: so I don't. You and I both lived through the 84 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: AIDS crisis, and I think that that folks who were 85 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: not born yet might not have a sense of like 86 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: how scary it was, UM and how there was a 87 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: period of time when there wasn't there was no way 88 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: to test donated blood for HIV, and there were people 89 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: who went to get a surgery and got it necessary 90 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: blood transfusion and contracted HIV through that transfusion. UM. And 91 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: so in that environment where like there wasn't a way 92 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: to test, and people knew that it like disproportionately was 93 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: affecting men who had sex with men, Like I don't 94 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: know that there would have been another way in that 95 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: moment to have tried to protect the blood supply. But 96 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: then tests did become available, and it became clear like 97 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: that there is a brief window where a person could 98 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: transmit HIV through their blood but like not show up 99 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: on a test yet. But that window is it's not 100 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: an entire life, Like the lifetime band no longer made 101 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: any sense at all. And then even when it was 102 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: reduced to a year, that's like still a year was 103 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: like way longer than the testing seems to back up. 104 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: And then like now it is three months, and that 105 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: is something that started during the COVID pandemic. All of 106 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: this is only related to the United States. I have 107 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: no idea how the source any world. And even then, 108 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: it just it felt like the f d A was saying, 109 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: we're desperate for blood, so I guess we'll take your 110 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: blood now, um, when really what should have happened is 111 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: years and years and years ago. Some studies to figure 112 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: out like what are the right questions to ask individual people, 113 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: not to make a whole blanket statement of uh. And 114 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: then also like like what's the actual time period where 115 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: a person might have been exposed to HIV but not 116 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: have it show up on a test yet. I've been 117 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: trying to donate blood regularly. I'm not doing it quite 118 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: as regularly as my goal is to do. I just 119 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: there will be times where I'm like, there's no way 120 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make it to the to the donation drive 121 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: to like this, I have to reschedule it sometimes. But 122 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: like the number of questions that are asked now is 123 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: I remember the first time I ever gave blood. I 124 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: feel like there were three questions that they were questions 125 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: that pertains to I think like HIV hepatitis and maybe 126 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: a third thing. Um. Now, it is a very long 127 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: list of questions that involves, uh, like your sexual history 128 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: and whether you've gotten tattoos recently in your travel history, 129 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: whether you have lived in the UK during the period 130 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: when when mad cow diseases have like a it's a 131 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: very very long list of stuff. I don't you ever 132 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: seem to get to donate blood. They always do the 133 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: spin and go, you're an emic, and I'm like, I 134 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: don't feel like and then that's the end. One of 135 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: the times I had there was a time I was 136 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: gonna go. The very first question that you are asked 137 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: when you're going to donate blood is are you feeling 138 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: well today? And there was one day where that answer 139 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: was no, and so I rescheduled it. Uh. And then 140 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: the day that I rescheduled it, I got there and 141 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: my pulse rate was too rapid and they'll check it 142 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: a second time. I'll give you a few minutes to 143 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: kind of chill out, just check check it a second time, 144 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: and they were like, your pulse is still a hundred 145 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: and two and any I don't know what was up 146 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: with me that day. So I had to defer that 147 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: day too. I got sent home and like, so that 148 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: kind of stuff has cost me to to have to 149 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: defer a couple of times. Um, there have been h 150 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: for a while. If you had been to Haiti at all, 151 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: even if you were on like a cruise ship docked 152 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: at the the private island that you never got off of, 153 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: you had to defer. I think that has loosened up 154 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: a little bit. But that's like a malaria risk. Um. Anyway, 155 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: this study that's happening right now to try to figure 156 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: out actual questions to ask instead of having this blanket 157 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: discriminatory band. It's called the Advanced Study. They have recruited 158 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: all their participants for it. I think they're expecting to 159 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: have the results of it by the end of the year. Um, 160 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: and I am hopeful that the result will be like 161 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: actual questions about people's behaviors to ask it really do 162 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: quantify an individual person's risk instead of it being like 163 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: no one who has had sex with another man, like 164 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: a man who's had sex with another man, or had 165 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: sex with a man who's had sex with a man 166 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: in the last three months, Just what is right now? Yeah, 167 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: I'll probably be disqualified for a while because of tattoos. Yeah, 168 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: the tattoo requirements are a little bit looser than they 169 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: were some years ago, because now there's stuff that has 170 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: to do with whether the state regulates the tattoo parlors. 171 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: That's how I learned. Massachusetts, a state that regulates a 172 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: lot of stuff, apparently doesn't regulate regulate our tattoo parlors 173 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: in a way that the FDA finds sufficient for blood donation. 174 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: Right now, I'm, you know, trying to get lots of 175 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: work done and finished up on my tattoos, so I'm 176 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: kind of there once a month at least, So I 177 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: don't know when I will you to try to give 178 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: blood again and be told once more that I am. 179 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: I one time didn't even get to the spin because 180 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: they were like, your blood pressure is way too low. 181 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't think that would be the case 182 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: now because I've put on some weight and I'm a 183 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: little older. But at the time it was like one 184 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: of those um, yeah, you will turn into a limp 185 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: rag if we try to take blood anyway. So yeah, 186 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: we've talked about my hypertension journey on the show. My 187 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: my blood pressure is doing pretty well right now. It 188 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: is mostly in the normal range with medication. Um but 189 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: when there's an app, you can look back at your 190 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: donation history, and there's a couple of times where I'm like, 191 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: I wish they had said, hey, you maybe should talk 192 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: to your doctor about this blood pressure because this is 193 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: a little well uh, but they didn't. I don't know 194 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: if there's a rule about how high your blood pressure 195 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: can be to donate blood, but if your pulses over 196 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: a hundred, they will tell you to go anyway. Um, 197 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: fingers crossed that we get to a more reasonable, not 198 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: discriminatory policy that is about actual risk factors and not 199 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: like a broad ban on people based on their sexual orientation. 200 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: We talked about Lady Chatterley's Lover. This week. We did 201 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: a book I'm pretty sure I've never read. I've read it, 202 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: but I'll confess to you I get my wires crossed 203 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: over things that happened in Lady Chatterly's Lover and things 204 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: that happened in Madame Bovary. And I have definitely read 205 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: Madame Bovary in one of my literature classes in college. Uh, 206 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: And we had we had a number of required readings 207 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: in that class that had to do with people being 208 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: unhappy and unfulfilled in their relationships. Yeah, there's a lot 209 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: of crossover between those two. Yeah, and as a consequence, 210 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: I get very confused. Yeah, I don't. I don't know 211 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: if you've ever read a plot summary of Lady Chatterly, 212 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: But their first sexual encounter happens in the forest on 213 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: the floor, and there's an event in Madame Bovary that 214 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: happens in a carriage, and I get those two switched 215 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: every time. Yeah, that I remember the carriage scene. Which 216 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: one is in which book? One of these that I 217 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: remember discussing in class. Also, I read that book and 218 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: I read Bovery in high school, and then when I 219 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: was in college, my high school English teacher asked if 220 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: I would like to guest lecture on it for her 221 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: class she had then, which was fun and made me 222 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: realize teaching is hard. I have so many side notes 223 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: for today that I should probably be slightly judicious about them. Um, 224 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: this one isn't really a thing that's worth a lot 225 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: of discussion, but it's a fun trivia point. We mentioned 226 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: in the episode that an Enjoyable Christmas a Prelude was D. H. 227 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: Lawrence's first published work, and he got to publish that 228 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: as part of a contest that he had won. But 229 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: the thing was he had entered multiple times, and so 230 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: he had used a different name for that one, and 231 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: it published not under his name but as his dear 232 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: friend Jesse Chambers. Um. Although people soon realized that D. H. 233 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: Lawrence was the true author, like, they didn't try to 234 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: hide it once it was published. But it just makes 235 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: me a little tickled that his first published work wasn't 236 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: actually under his own name. That's funny. Um. Something that 237 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: jumped out at me that I did not realize. It 238 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: didn't click with me, uh when I was reading the 239 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: outline ahead of time. It only clicked with me in 240 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: the studio. Um during the trial, when the prosecution was 241 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: like would you want your wife to be reading this? 242 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: I assumed that the jurors were all male, because like 243 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: there was a long time when the jurors would have 244 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: been on all mail. And so it wasn't until we 245 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: got to the part about the dedication on the like 246 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: the next edition of the book that that mentioned the 247 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: men and women on the jury, and I was like 248 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: the guy was standing up there being like would you 249 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: want your wife reading this in front of Like it 250 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: just added another layer of gross to me. So I 251 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: will tell you that I had the same journey of 252 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: discovery while doing the research, and I left it purposely 253 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: ambiguous in the thing because to me it is kind 254 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: of a punch of like, oh Lord that bands a 255 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: jerk at the end. I love this. I love this. 256 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad we've had this conversation. Yeah, there's an interesting thing. 257 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: We mentioned his ashes being moved from France to Taos, 258 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: And now if you go to Taos, tause loves their d. H. Lawrence. 259 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: He didn't live there very long, but they really love d. H. Lawrence. Um. 260 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: And they have like entire um, like very beautiful spaces 261 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: dedicated to him. In the chapel where his ashes are 262 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: is still there, except there are a lot of people 263 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: that think his ashes aren't in there. Um. So there's 264 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: a d. H. Lawrence scholar named Emile de la Verna, 265 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: and he wrote a paper not that long ago, but 266 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: the case was made that when the ashes were being 267 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: brought back over, it was discovered that they were going 268 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: to have to pay taxes on them, and that without 269 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: telling Frieda, her lover her at the time not yet 270 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: her next husband, um head instead spread them in the 271 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: Mediterranean and then put dust and some earth in the 272 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: the Urn and that that is in fact with sin 273 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: Taos and he has a whole supporting thing around that. UM. 274 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: I will and make sure I include that in the 275 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: show notes. If you want to go read that paper, 276 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: it's available on j Store, but you do have to 277 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: be logged in to see it. Uh. It's just an 278 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: interesting theory. As I was reading, I was like, I 279 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: wonder how many people are talking about this in biographies 280 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: of him that are more recent, and they kind of don't. 281 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: I think most people are like, let's not, it's not Germany. 282 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: I Also we didn't talk about the fact that the 283 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: age Laurence painted a lot painted a lot of also 284 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: very provocative and sexually explicit paintings. I was reading one 285 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: account of them where someone said they're really not that explicit. 286 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: They're mostly very gropy, which is not incorrect. Um, but 287 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: if you go looking for them, he has a very 288 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: unique painting style. Uh. And we didn't really get to 289 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: talk about that. But I also mentioned that the US 290 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 1: and Great Britain are not the only places that this 291 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: book has a legal history. No, definitely not. And the 292 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: two that sort of broke my heart were in Japan 293 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: and India. Uh. In those cases. There was a full 294 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: translation of Lady Chatterley's Lover published in Japan and nineteen 295 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: fifty and that is its own famous subsanity trial in 296 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: that country. Um. Similarly, a lot of literary experts testified 297 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: for the defense. However, that publisher received a guilty verdict 298 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: in that case and had to pay a pretty significant fine. 299 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 1: And that's pretty similar to how it played out in 300 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: India as well. So it's kind of interesting. Um, it 301 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: was still banned in Australia even after the British case 302 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: around it, and then black market copies got smuggled into 303 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: Australia and started to be published republished there in mid sixties, 304 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: and that kind of led people to go, I guess 305 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: we're allowing this now, Like it wasn't much more relaxed 306 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: kind of proceedings. Um. It's just an interesting thing the 307 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: way one book can really like catalyze this really a 308 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: pretty serious discussion about what is and is not acceptable, uh, 309 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: in the realm of literature and art. Um. I mean 310 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: I think you and I have lived through plenty of those, right, Um, 311 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: where various artists and writers have been kind of called 312 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: on the carpet for being obscene and other people are like, no, 313 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: that's it's art, dude. I know. I don't think we'll 314 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: ever come to consensus because not everyone will agree what's acceptable. Sure. 315 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean there are still you know, lists of banned 316 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: books that appear everywhere, and libraries do banned book promotions 317 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: and a lot of calls to band books ongoing currently, yes, 318 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: which is just fascinating to me. Um. There were some 319 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: really interesting things I didn't include because this was starting 320 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: to run a little bit long. Um news articles where 321 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: people had, of course, you know, reporters had, of course, 322 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: to get a slightly different spin on the story, talked 323 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: to like their local libraries about it and been like 324 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? And there was one library 325 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: where the head library and was very matter of fact 326 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: and I sort of loved it, where he was like, 327 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: I mean we haven't we've actually had it for a 328 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: little while, but like nobody checks that book out there. 329 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: They all read Sons and Lovers. I don't know, and 330 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: like we wouldn't let a kid get to the checkout 331 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: desk and take this book, like we did. We do 332 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: recognize that, like not every book is is for kids. Um. 333 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: It was just this interesting thing of like why do 334 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: you think this is a problem kind of like the 335 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: React books anyway, d H. Lawrence, he's so fascinating to me. 336 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Probably kind of a mess on the side, but he 337 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: had a lot of weird things that happened. Anyway, that's 338 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: my things. On Lady Chatterle's Lover, which, um, I'm sure 339 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: people will ask us about various movies. There is a 340 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: new Lady Chatterley's Lover. I haven't seen it yet because 341 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: it isn't out yet. Also, I don't know that i'll 342 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: watch it. That's kind of not my genre of film, 343 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: So we'll see. It'll be out I think by the 344 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: time this airs, but it was not out when we recorded. 345 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: I think November when it's out on I'm pulling this 346 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: from memory net Flix. Don't quote me on that, but 347 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: I think November. If you're looking for a new version, 348 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: there have been lots of versions over the years, including 349 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: that French one that kind of riled up this whole 350 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: case again. Uh, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Emma Bovary, they're all one. 351 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: They're all one. To me, they're not. I know, they're different. 352 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: I you know, Gustafalobert would be chagrined I do wonder 353 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: what D. H. Lawrence would think of all this though, Yeah, yeah, 354 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: like if he would just be like what so many 355 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: lawyers I don't I don't know. Yeah, but his his 356 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: little boat got to fly. So there you go. If 357 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: you are coming up on your weekend, hopefully you will 358 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: enjoy some art or literature whatever you think is appropriate 359 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: for you. Uh. And if you can't do that, I 360 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: hope you at least have the best possible couple of 361 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: days ahead. We will be right back here tomorrow with 362 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: a classic episode, and then on Monday once again with 363 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: new stuff. Stuff you missed in History Class is a 364 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I 365 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 366 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.