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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Happy New Year. We hope you had a

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Speaker 1: good new year. We sure did. We're making one big

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Speaker 1: and thanks for listening up. I don't know stories and

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Speaker 1: the answer too. Hey there, welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I am Joe, joined as always by my

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Speaker 1: co hosts and Steve and almost almost gave it away

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Speaker 1: as my surname is water Alert everybody. Okay, uh wow,

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Speaker 1: So we've got another cool mystery this week. First off,

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Speaker 1: I want to say this was suggested by Mike and

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, I think a year or two

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Speaker 1: something like that. Anyway, sometime in the one century. I hope, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hope you're like still alive and still listening to us. Mike. Thanks.

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Speaker 1: What we're gonna talk about is a very notorious double

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Speaker 1: murder that happened almost a hundred years ago in the

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Speaker 1: far off axotic country of New Jersey. Uh you've heard

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Speaker 1: of New Jersey probably, Yeah, home of like Atlantic City

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Speaker 1: and all that good stuff. Yeah, and of course we

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Speaker 1: got a riff on New Jersey a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: you know, double murder, New Jersey. So what big freaking deal,

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Speaker 1: every day occurrence? I know, pretty much. We're just kidding

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Speaker 1: our New Jersey listeners. Hey, guys, don't take it seriously.

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Speaker 1: We're just having a little fun. So let's get back

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Speaker 1: to our notorious double murder here. Some of you might

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Speaker 1: have heard of this. It was actually a huge deal

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Speaker 1: back when it happened. It's like it was like up

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Speaker 1: until that that time it was the biggest thing in

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Speaker 1: the national news until it got bumped by the Lindbergh

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Speaker 1: baby case. Yeah, it took about a decade before it

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Speaker 1: got Yeah, but until that time, it was pretty freaking huge. Um.

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Speaker 1: So what happened is on the morning of September six,

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Speaker 1: two bodies were discovered in a field that was part

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Speaker 1: of a farm that had abandoned farmhouse on it. And uh,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of a lover's lane. It was a

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Speaker 1: little a little old called Uh it's it's in northwest

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Speaker 1: New Brunswick, New Jersey, and it's called Drusie Lane. And

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Speaker 1: I look forward on Google, I can't find it. I'm

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Speaker 1: hoping some of our New Jersey listeners, if they're not

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Speaker 1: angry with us and they haven't shut us off already,

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Speaker 1: hoping they can look at some old maps and they

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Speaker 1: find it. But it's off of Eastern Eastern Avenue that

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Speaker 1: kind of runs parallel to the river there. If you're PREMI,

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Speaker 1: of course you all know where the river is New Brunswick, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it's where you dropped the bodies, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And these people apparently were too lazy or just too

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Speaker 1: impatient to get all the way to the river, so

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Speaker 1: they dump the bodies a little short of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not really. Yeah, the bodies were discovered by two

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Speaker 1: young lovers. Of course, it was Lovers Lane, so they

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Speaker 1: were out for a morning stroll. And I would give

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Speaker 1: you their names. Actually their names are available and out there,

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Speaker 1: but you'd forget them right away, and it's not that

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Speaker 1: important anyhow, Right, it's Raymond Schneider and Pearl Bombers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and actually I probably should say their names. I guess

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Speaker 1: there was talking about about possibly one of the other

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Speaker 1: and being involved in the murderers, so oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know that that's kind of important. Yeah. So he

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Speaker 1: was twenty three and she was fifteen. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if that wasn't partly legal, but so let's just take

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Speaker 1: it one crime at a time, right, Our two lovers

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Speaker 1: were walking down good old Drusy Lane and headed towards

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Speaker 1: that abandoned farmhouse I mentioned about, but ago uh, and

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Speaker 1: then they saw something. Reportedly she saw it first, a

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Speaker 1: couple of bodies underneath a crab apple tree. I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say, clearly, they've never seen any horror movies. You

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Speaker 1: don't walk to an abandoned barn quite a thing in

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Speaker 1: so sorry, good point. It's really true. Those weren't more

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Speaker 1: innocent times. Probably people didn't really look at an abandoned

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Speaker 1: thing and immediately thinking of serial killer Matt Slash or

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Speaker 1: anything like that like we do today. That we totally do, right,

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Speaker 1: Yeah I do. I do. Yeah, our listeners obviously do.

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Speaker 1: We've got those emails. Yeah, for sure. So I don't

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Speaker 1: go into those places without a clear warm mine duct

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Speaker 1: taped to my chest. We should just talk about your

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Speaker 1: defen the strategy for like a quick second. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: like it. Face towards enemy is not a good A

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Speaker 1: good strategy, yeah, yeah, I would have pointed outwards. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely that. Yeah, and even then, I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: you would survive one of those, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: you would. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you won't. We got

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Speaker 1: to find a guinea pig anyway back to Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean like I don't I like guinea pigs.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about you know what I'm saying. It's what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about this is the position of the bodies. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you guys have read about this. They were they

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Speaker 1: were carefully posed. They were laid out on their backs,

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Speaker 1: side by side, with their feet towards a crab apple tree.

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Speaker 1: There was a man and a woman, and a man

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Speaker 1: and a woman. His right arm was extended and was

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Speaker 1: underneath her neck, and her left arm was extended towards him,

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Speaker 1: and her hand was resting on his right leg, and

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Speaker 1: she was she was on his right side, and they

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Speaker 1: were closest to her. Yeah, okay, yeah, exactly. And his

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Speaker 1: hat had been placed over his face and he was

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Speaker 1: wearing his glasses by the way. Her scarf had been

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Speaker 1: wrapped around her neck, and it appears that it was

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Speaker 1: wrapped around her neck by the killer or kill. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: postward you'll find out why in a sack that they've

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Speaker 1: both been shot in the head. He was shot once

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Speaker 1: in the head and she was shot three times. It

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Speaker 1: was once above the right eye and then twice just

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Speaker 1: below it. I think is where the entry wounds were

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Speaker 1: at something like that. But yeah, and they were shot

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Speaker 1: from the front, Yeah, mostly from the front. Actually, his

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Speaker 1: one was kind of in the side. It kind of

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Speaker 1: went in like I think like behind his ear and

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Speaker 1: came out of his neck or something like that. Almost

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Speaker 1: like maybe he turned his head at the last second

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Speaker 1: or the Yeah, somebody's trying to shoot me, that's probably

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Speaker 1: what I would do, or put my hands up that

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Speaker 1: will stop that bullet. Yeah, as I said, it appears

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Speaker 1: that the scarf was wrapped around her neck postmortem because

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Speaker 1: when they unwrapped the scarf from her neck, turns out

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Speaker 1: her throat had been cut from ear to ear and

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Uh, And apparently it was like

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Speaker 1: infested enough with I guess that indicated that they the

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Speaker 1: bodies have been there at least twenty four hours and

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Speaker 1: probably more like you know, something like that. They were

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Speaker 1: posed in a way that didn't really lead to very

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Speaker 1: much suspicion, I would say, right. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: lover's lane if it's nice enough weather, like you know,

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Speaker 1: they're just taking an app and that especially with the

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Speaker 1: scarf over the gash in her neck and the hat

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Speaker 1: over his face, that seems sort of like they're hiding

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Speaker 1: the wounds. Yeah, you would maybe walk past and it

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Speaker 1: would just look like, oh, they're just two lovers laying there.

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Speaker 1: It does happen that kind of thing, you know, the

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Speaker 1: dead bodies, and people just think it was somebody taking

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Speaker 1: an app not unusual. So that's that's a good strategy.

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Speaker 1: And of course guarantee the body is gonna be nice

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Speaker 1: and right by the time they found And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: the riper they are, the better it is for you

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Speaker 1: the murderer. Right. Yeah, the cut, by the way her

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Speaker 1: neck was from the right side, that's her right to

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Speaker 1: the left, which indicates to me at least that it

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Speaker 1: was a left handed kill. We had this conversation with Jackery. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I I still disagree with the

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Speaker 1: automatic presumption killer could have been behind her. It could

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Speaker 1: have been instead of a forehand, a backhand slash. There's

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Speaker 1: there's a number of ways that could go. Although when

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like we're talking haphazard slash, like I

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Speaker 1: agreed with you with jack the ripper right that if

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Speaker 1: you're just if you're like slash backhanded or slash back.

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Speaker 1: You also don't know if this cut was done, was

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Speaker 1: what killed her, or if the shots were I presume

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Speaker 1: that the shots happened first at the point she's laying

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Speaker 1: on the ground, so it would have been a slow

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Speaker 1: cut either way. But you can drag your hand across

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Speaker 1: one direction or the other on something that's laying on

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Speaker 1: the ground and not resisting you. That makes it easy

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Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, but so anyway, it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 1: There were no obvious suspects who were left handed, so

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Speaker 1: at least that I know of, But Lefty got off

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Speaker 1: yeah right now, Yeah, that's the guys nickname is Lefty.

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Speaker 1: That'd be funny. Yeah. There were two autopsies done on

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Speaker 1: her body, one just after the murder and then another

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Speaker 1: one four years later when the investigation was reopened, and

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Speaker 1: that autopsy they discovered that her larynx and her tongue

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Speaker 1: had been removed. Interestingly, and so I don't know how

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Speaker 1: the first medical examiner managed to miss something like that.

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Speaker 1: It seems like a pretty big thing. Yeah, I you know,

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Speaker 1: all I can say is like, you know, maybe they

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Speaker 1: just looked at the bullet hole to slit throat and

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Speaker 1: they just sawt well cause of death open and shut. Maybe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it wasn't an autopsy, but just because

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Speaker 1: I had to look this up because the laryrics, it's

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Speaker 1: the larynx that was missing, right, Yeah. That that is

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Speaker 1: just below your basically where a man's atom apple is

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Speaker 1: up to the bottom of the chin. It's somewhere in

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Speaker 1: that range. So it's and it's connected to the tongue

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Speaker 1: it's true sort of connected to the tongue by muscle tissue, yes,

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Speaker 1: sort of, not perfectly. Yeah, it's so an interesting little

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Speaker 1: little souvenir to take if you're the murderer. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: just seems like it would be messy, yeah, extremely and

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Speaker 1: that it would have left like a lot of blood

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Speaker 1: trace and stuff like that. That's why it brings zip

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Speaker 1: block bags, I guess, yeah, but I'm just thinking, you know, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if indeed all of this took place while she was

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Speaker 1: alive or was the cause of death, there should have

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Speaker 1: been tons of blood spatter. Well, there should have been

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Speaker 1: tons of blood flow even if she was dead, unless

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Speaker 1: her body had been drained of blood, which would be

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Speaker 1: another really important thing true, you know, yeah, I know

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Speaker 1: I didn't. The cram scene was kind of contaminated, but

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Speaker 1: you think still that massive amounts of blood would be

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Speaker 1: kind of like evidence. But I haven't found any evidence

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Speaker 1: that there was. I'm sure there was lots of blood,

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Speaker 1: it's just the writings or the investigation stuff is, but

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Speaker 1: that it would be all over her as well, a

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Speaker 1: lot of it on her. But she was very dark

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Speaker 1: clothing too, so that's you know, there's that and a

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Speaker 1: lot of it was soak into the ground. The state

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Speaker 1: of the bodies. It could it could be like what

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Speaker 1: Devon was saying, It could just be somebody who arranged

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Speaker 1: him to look like two lovers taking an app or

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Speaker 1: just hanging out, or it's kind of it could just

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Speaker 1: just sort of a ritualistic kind of serial killer kind

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Speaker 1: of pose. Um uh. And I doubt that I doubt

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Speaker 1: that they actually did it themselves. Since they've been shot

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Speaker 1: in the head, right, that kind of makes sense to

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Speaker 1: the killer did. Yeah, this is not a murder suicide

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Speaker 1: packed thing, no, or even a happenstance that that just

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Speaker 1: happens to be how they fell. Yeah, because seeing the

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Speaker 1: other Yeah, no, that that that theory is is completely

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Speaker 1: out there. I don't even know why you put that in.

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Speaker 1: I kind of I kind of like it. What my

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Speaker 1: theory is this is that all the townsfolk, when they

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Speaker 1: heard that there have been two bodies discovered, came running

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Speaker 1: right away to trample the crime scene and take souvenirs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah they did, They totally did. And I'm just imagining

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Speaker 1: that they get there and he's laying there with a

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Speaker 1: revolver in his hand, as somebody says, hey, that'd be

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Speaker 1: a cool souvenir and just grabs it. So it could

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Speaker 1: have happened. Well, yeah, you guys have both seen the

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Speaker 1: photos of people all over that place. It was it

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Speaker 1: was it was a circus, it wasn't. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: all these guys wearing their their suits and their derby

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Speaker 1: hats and everything, and there's like a crowd of them

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Speaker 1: around this crab apple tree and they're all grinning and

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Speaker 1: carving their initials into this crab apple. They were carving

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Speaker 1: their initials. They were carving chunks of it away images

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Speaker 1: that I saw you could tell they were. They were

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Speaker 1: taking big scrapes out of it down to bear wood.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that tree was done. I'm sure. Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: that crab I will treat you to them, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, I mean it was a little crabby, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah what it makes kind of a crappy suit

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Speaker 1: and here it really you know, it looks like a

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Speaker 1: piece of wood. It's like, oh no, this came from

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Speaker 1: like near a murder scene. Well, but also like really really,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we all three are like weird people like

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Speaker 1: unsolved mysteries and murders and things like that. I cannot

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Speaker 1: fathom being like, oh, murder cool, I need a souvenir.

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Speaker 1: What I can see you doing it? I would, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would get a son or two. I grabbed the

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Speaker 1: murder weapon because you always want to get caught with

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Speaker 1: that with your fingerprints on it and everything. That's exactly right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, yes, I said, there's not much else in

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Speaker 1: the way of evidence, because again, it was all trampled

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Speaker 1: on by everybody. So the bodies were really the only intact,

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Speaker 1: untinted evidence at the scene. And I'm not even totally

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Speaker 1: sure about that, because I wouldn't be surprised if their

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Speaker 1: pockets weren't rifled seriously. Well, and so here's here's part

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Speaker 1: of the problem we should we should explain this right now.

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Speaker 1: Is that the property where the bodies were found, we're

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Speaker 1: just on the edge of two different police districts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: two different counties. Yeah, and so the wrong county showed

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Speaker 1: up first and oh my gosh, what's going on and

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Speaker 1: then realized they had no jurisdiction and they were totally

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Speaker 1: off the so they just left. From the way I

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Speaker 1: understand it, Yeah, they didn't try to secure the scene.

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Speaker 1: Should have the authorities who should have been investigating it

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Speaker 1: showed up. They had to shoot away the giant crowd

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Speaker 1: because there were no police keeping people back. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I kind of surprised they weren't like parading around

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Speaker 1: with the bodies on their shoulders like weekended Bernie style. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get a picture of this. Huh. But the the

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Speaker 1: initial pose of the bodies was, I mean, that's what

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Speaker 1: it was reported, right by the couple that found them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I kind of, yeah, it was. And I actually think

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Speaker 1: that it's entirely possible that they were picked over a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but they were pretty much I think left

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Speaker 1: actually the way they were found. Yeah, again, it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me if somebody like grabbed a Walter or watch.

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Speaker 1: I mean, actually the guy's watch was missing, so maybe

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Speaker 1: somebody kept it so hard to tell, wouldn't wouldn't surprise me,

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Speaker 1: that's Mr Hall Yeah, Mr Hall' spoiler alert in the

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Speaker 1: episode title or anything. I'm not sure how recognizable the

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Speaker 1: bodies were because this is September, so it wasn't like warm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't super hot. It wasn't like a hot

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Speaker 1: July you know week or anything like that. So maybe

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Speaker 1: they were pretty right, or maybe they weren't too. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they were recognizable. I'm not sure. But luckily there was

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Speaker 1: a calling card at the man's feet. Uh. And by

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Speaker 1: a college card, I don't mean the kind your dog leaves,

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Speaker 1: or like the kind of card that like a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: Not that kind of card. It's actually a literal calling card.

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Speaker 1: It was like a business card, but it's just you

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Speaker 1: don't get your name on it. Then in this case,

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Speaker 1: the name was the Reverend Edward W. Hall. Calling cards

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Speaker 1: are an interesting You should look it up everyone, because

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Speaker 1: I really struggling to not just give you a little

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Speaker 1: history lesson on the etiquette of calling cards. So if

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Speaker 1: some of everybody looking up, yeah, you will enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Should we get calling cards? Yeah we probably should. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: with our logo on them and everything. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if we want to do that. Why not they're gonna

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Speaker 1: end up at crime scenes. Yeah, I know that would

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Speaker 1: be Yeah. Luckily our last names wouldn't be on them,

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Speaker 1: so good luck. Fine, he guess covered. Yeah. The dead guy,

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Speaker 1: it turns out, was an episcopal uncle priest at the

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Speaker 1: Church of St. John the Evangelist and New Brunswick. He

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Speaker 1: was forty one and also, by the way, the card

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Speaker 1: was found leaning up apparently against his shoe, and the

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Speaker 1: crowd found it and they were all passing around and stuff.

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Speaker 1: So it was covered in fingerprints. Yeah, it's got bloody

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Speaker 1: fingerprints on it. I don't know if that was from

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Speaker 1: the killer or if that was just from the crowd.

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Speaker 1: They got a little blood on their on their hands

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Speaker 1: and then we're just passing this card around, so great,

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Speaker 1: great job, guys. I wouldn't you know what. It can't

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Speaker 1: be from the crowd because if if the bodies have

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Speaker 1: been there for thirty six hours and the heat, the

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Speaker 1: blood would have coagulated. The blood would have coagulated. It

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be as if it was just fresh and wet.

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Speaker 1: It would be mostly dried, possibly a little sticky. Well. Although,

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Speaker 1: although I have to say this, the pictures that I've

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Speaker 1: seen of the card that were only black and white,

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Speaker 1: so I saw smudges and fingerprints on it. Maybe, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could have been Maybe it was just dirt, you know,

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Speaker 1: people had dirty that's true. But I do know they

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Speaker 1: dusted the card for fingerprints. His fingerprinting was coming. It

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Speaker 1: was in it. It was like the only thing you

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Speaker 1: could do. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely fingerprinting. Was it

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Speaker 1: was its thing. But god knows how many fingerprints they

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Speaker 1: found on those you've seen the picture, Oh yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that was h and the real trick and fingerprinting in

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Speaker 1: those days, right, it was like you had you had

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Speaker 1: a suspect to compare the fingerprints too. It's not as

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Speaker 1: though they had a database that they could run that

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Speaker 1: fingerprint through. You had to actually say, Okay, we think

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Speaker 1: this might be your fingerprint, Bob, so we're going to

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Speaker 1: take your fingerprints and oh, yep, they match. It's you. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and and definitely. I don't I can't imagine what it

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Speaker 1: was like back in the day before computers. I mean,

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Speaker 1: now the FBI and everything they can to database isn't

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Speaker 1: just easy, but in the old days, can you imagine

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Speaker 1: what it hideous job that would be. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: slipping through the book, haircuts, the mail, Oh, another set

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Speaker 1: of fingerprints for me to look through all of our files.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure I know they had methods of identification

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Speaker 1: to sort them out and stuff and and narrow it down,

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Speaker 1: but still what a tedious job. Oh yeah, I know

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Speaker 1: there was there were some ways to speed it up,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, you'd have to listen to a podcast

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Speaker 1: to get through your day. Right then I know who

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Speaker 1: Tim Radio shows, Yeah, basically podcasts. Yeah. Uh. And as

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Speaker 1: for as for idea, the woman and apparently everybody in

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Speaker 1: the church congregation knew that the reverend was having a

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Speaker 1: little thing with one of his choir singers. Turns out

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Speaker 1: her name was Eleanor Mills, age thirty four. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: so she was easy to identify. Now. She was married

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Speaker 1: to Jimmy Mills, who was a church sexton in the

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Speaker 1: Episcopal Church. And also he was also a janitor to

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Speaker 1: near my school. And so the sexton is the guy

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Speaker 1: who's responsible for opening the church and ringing the bells

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Speaker 1: and things like that. Is that I read about it,

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Speaker 1: but it just it didn't I was like, I'm so

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Speaker 1: ignorant of that stuff. I know one of their duties

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Speaker 1: was ringing the bell, so he did things at the church.

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Speaker 1: All I know is the first three letters are sex.

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Speaker 1: That's all I know. I have no idea what the

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Speaker 1: sex and does. To be honest, okay, I know I'm

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Speaker 1: supposed to know everything, but I prefer to know all

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Speaker 1: about crime and stuff like that. Yeah, it's the person

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Speaker 1: who's charged with the maintenance of the buildings and or

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Speaker 1: surrounding graveyards. Okay, so yeah, basically he was a janitor. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, Devon, Thank You're welcome. Good job. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Should we have Syria on the show one of these

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Speaker 1: days special guests, Sirie. That'd be kind of fun to interrogate, it,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it. H And also there was one of the

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Speaker 1: little piece of evidence that the crime scene, which was

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Speaker 1: some love letters apparently fragments torn up, apparently written by

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Speaker 1: Eleanor to her lover, the Reverend Hall. They've been torn

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Speaker 1: up and scattered about the scene, although some accounts there

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Speaker 1: were just some fragments between the bodies and that was it.

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Speaker 1: So if I've heard of both ways, and I guess

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Speaker 1: it's possible that when the bodies were initially discovered, they

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Speaker 1: were all over the place, and they're the ones that

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Speaker 1: were left by the time the cops got there were

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Speaker 1: the ones that were in between the bodies. That's also

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Speaker 1: very very possible. I'm pretty sure at least a few

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Speaker 1: of those things got snagged by the locals and you know, pocketed. Also,

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Speaker 1: that's not looking very great for the husband. Love letters

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Speaker 1: being torn up and scattered around their dead bodies. They

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Speaker 1: were from her to him. So how are you saying

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Speaker 1: that's for her husband? That's not looking good? How was

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Speaker 1: he going to find him? They weren't in his home?

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Speaker 1: She who said she sent them? Yet that's true, I suppose,

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Speaker 1: I guess when when it's love letters plural, I would presume,

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Speaker 1: and I seem to remember that they were letters written

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Speaker 1: to this affair been going on for years. I seem

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Speaker 1: to remember that they were letters over a significant span

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Speaker 1: of time. Okay, So I would seem the point more

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Speaker 1: of a fat finger of guilt at the wife of

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Speaker 1: the He had a wife. He did have a wife. Okay, Okay,

402
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: he did have a wife. Let's talk about her. He

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Speaker 1: was married to Francis Stevens, who, of course became Francis

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Speaker 1: Steven's hall. Uh. She was seven years older than him,

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Speaker 1: and frankly, she was really not nearly as much of

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Speaker 1: a looker as Eleanor. I'm sure you've seen her pictures, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean she was like yeah, I mean she was

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Speaker 1: like late, you know, almost fifty. Where is Eleanor is

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Speaker 1: thirty four? It's kind of rare, I mean, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah it is. It is. But um, so that

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Speaker 1: probably explains the wandering eye and the part of the reverend. Now,

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Speaker 1: the thing that Frances really did have, though, going for her,

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Speaker 1: was she had lots and lots of money because she

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Speaker 1: had married. They married, I think about eleven years before

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Speaker 1: the murder, and she was thirty seven at the time,

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Speaker 1: and then a few years later she inherited family a

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Speaker 1: family fortune which was like millions, like in today's money

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Speaker 1: or like those days line, So a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: That's a good reason to marry, someone says, the not romantic.

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Speaker 1: Good news is my boyfriend doesn't look at this podcast

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Speaker 1: if he has no idea. Oh thank god. Yeah. Yeah, people,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. People might have been a little more

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Speaker 1: practical about marriage back in those days too. I think

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Speaker 1: it was much different, different perspective, and I think some

425
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 1: people were, but not, I mean not everybody. Yeah. Uh well,

426
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: And speaking of marriage, Eleanor of course was married. She

427
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: got married at age seventeen. She had had a couple

428
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: of kids with her husband, Jimmy Mills, and she had

429
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: been involved with the church, the Episcopal Church for about

430
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,239
Speaker 1: ten years or so. And did the Halls have children, Uh,

431
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 1: not that I know that I have ever seen anything. Now, Yeah,

432
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: I think she was already thirty seven when they're married.

433
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: So especially it's hard enough to these days to have

434
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: a child at your thirty seven. I mean, it happens

435
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 1: even in the old yep. I'm just remembering some emails

436
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: that we got after we talked about Elizabeth's supposed potential

437
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 1: utility at that age. So I'm just not going to

438
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: say one way or another if that was a thing

439
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: now it's it's entirely possible, but the odds, the chances,

440
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: the odds are less, but it's still totally possible as

441
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: long as they are doing the practice that results in children.

442
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: And what is that it's the first part of the

443
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: thing that the husband was the ton okay uh, But

444
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: then what I In one account, I've heard that Eleanor

445
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: Mills on the fourteenth, the day of the murder, she

446
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: had found an article apparently discussing justifications for a mr

447
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: getting a divorce. Because apparently that was like, you know,

448
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: kind of frowned upon. The divorce in general. Was it

449
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 1: was a lot rarer in those days. It was not

450
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: nearly as easy as things it is today. But she

451
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: called Hall and essentially wanted to meet him in andy

452
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: Rusy Lane to talk about this article and to talk about,

453
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: you know, maybe them, you know, somehow ditching their spouses

454
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: isn't getting together and wait to just because I keep

455
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: getting them mixed up. So Mrs Mills, the lady who

456
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: was killed, found an article and got Mr Hall to

457
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: meet her to talk about this. Okay, okay, just making

458
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: sure to talk about other stuff. Maybe to have sex,

459
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, but a liaison if you will. Yeah,

460
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: it could have been all kinds of things. But apparently

461
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: he left his house around seven thirty pm. He was

462
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: seen by somebody or another walking towards Drusy Lane on

463
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: Eastern Avenue. Um, that was the last time any of

464
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: those guys were seen alive. She was last seen at

465
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: her house about six that night, I felt, and so

466
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: she had church business to deal with. Yeah, apparently happened

467
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: to me. Technically she was telling the truth, but her husband, uh,

468
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, kind of did what she said to you know,

469
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: he tried to argue with her and she just said, fine,

470
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: then come with me, and he's like, okay, And that

471
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: was the last time he's on her. Uh huh. I

472
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: guess he's wishing he would have gone with him, but

473
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: oh well, hindse. Yeah, the next day Francis Hall, that

474
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: would be the reverend. Hall's wife noted his absence. I

475
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: think I had heard that she went by like the

476
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: church about two am to check to check on him.

477
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: With her brother too. Yeah, yeah, she had one of

478
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: her brothers was living with her at the time. The

479
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: other one was living close, very close by. A real

480
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: recipe for romance when you have your brother living with you. Yes, yeah,

481
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,239
Speaker 1: for sure. Uh So she had noted the next day

482
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: that Hall was gone, and she at one point did

483
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: call the police apparently and asked them if any they'd

484
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: turned up any bodies or anything, because that was just

485
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: kind of a strange thing. Usually you call them and say,

486
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, my husband is missing. Have you had any reports,

487
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: you know, or anything like that, and said you call

488
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: him and just say, hey, I found any corpses. I

489
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: guess I can see it from the perspective of if

490
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: she's in a bit of a panic, then have you

491
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: found any bodies? No? Okay, great, God, I gotta keep looking. Well,

492
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: like I could see that that that side of it,

493
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: or that she you know, as possible she had called

494
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: the local hospitals or was friendly with a local doctor

495
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: or you know whatever, and new had already found out. No,

496
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: he's not in any kind of medical care. So okay,

497
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: well the next step is turn up dead somewhere or

498
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, you call up that colinel says, it's he

499
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: in the drunk tank. Yeah, although I did you arrest him?

500
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: I am? Did he get into the line at the church? Yeah? Communion, Yeah,

501
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: because that's good stuff. The following day, the sixteenth, of course,

502
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: the bodies were found, and of course the immediate obvious

503
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: suspects are the spouses, right, James Mills in Francis Hall. Yeah,

504
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: so James Mills was rounded up first, probably because he

505
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: was poor. She was rich, Yeah, super rich, affluent. You

506
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: don't go after the affluent, yeah, want to want to

507
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: treat them with the more kid who loves Also, I

508
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: think realistically in the twenties, it it's definitely more likely

509
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: that they would have just assumed that it was a

510
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: man who did Jane. That's definitely well, I think typically,

511
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: I mean, women commit murder all the time, but you

512
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: know that definitely when in situations like that, it's probably

513
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: the guy who's more likely to become a homicidally violent

514
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, I would think, I mean some women would,

515
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm more likely the guy right statistically, Yeah,

516
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: I'll get some angry emails about that, but you know,

517
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: I think it's true probably. And then it's not long

518
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: after that some people, some people, they were like about

519
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: four different people in the area and the immediate area

520
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: said they had her gunshots. And then one of them

521
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: was Jane Gibson, who became known as the Pig Lady.

522
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: Such a terrible nickname. The newspapers are terrible. She had

523
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: a pig farm. Yeah, she had a pig farm, and

524
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: I think she was growing some crops too, And I

525
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: don't know she was growing up for sale or just

526
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: to feed to her hogs. I'm not sure, but she

527
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: said I told police that she had heard a dog

528
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: barking about nine pm and that she saw a man

529
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: standing in her cornfield, and so she hopped on her mule,

530
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: which is kind of funny when you think about it.

531
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: Why not just walk out there, But she got on

532
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: her mule and rode out there, and a mule can

533
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: trot faster than you can walk. That, yeah, I suppose. Yeah,

534
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: maybe she didn't want to get her feet dirty either, yeah, Yeah,

535
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: And she when she got closer to where this guy was,

536
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: she sat. There were actually four people next to a

537
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: crab apple tree, and that appeared to be maybe some

538
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: accounts as two men, two women, Oh yeah, and oh

539
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: she also identified one of us having white hair, which

540
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: the reverend did no but his wife actually she had

541
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: graying hair. I'm not I'm not sure exactly how how

542
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: moonlit than it was, how how easy it would be

543
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: to see if somebody had dirty on September it's still

544
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: pretty fairly light out at Uh. Well, I'll just mention

545
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: one thing briefly, and that is in the nineteen twenties,

546
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: any woman of any standing or affluence wouldn't really go

547
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: outside without a hat on, so to her hair would

548
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: be weird, but she could you wear it up? Oh okay,

549
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: never mind apologize. Although she might have decided to go

550
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: casual because she was murdering people, that's true, but it

551
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: would be weird. I mean, I guess in my mind,

552
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: and I would presume I would presume in her logic

553
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: as well, if she were thinking through. And that does

554
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 1: make a presumption there certainly, But she would know that

555
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: it would be weird if anybody saw her after she

556
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: had committed this before after that she was just like

557
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: out like a deranged human being yet happen, or her

558
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: hair up or nice clothes. I mean, this is this

559
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: is you remember, this is when people are dressed, still

560
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: dressing to leave the house, way before pajama Central. Yeah,

561
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: it's like that. Yeah, it's like that. That picture of

562
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: all those guys taken apart the crab Apple Tree and

563
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: Derby had that's because that's what proper people wore at

564
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: that time. And they're all they're all acting like, you know,

565
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: like they're all acting kind of teenagers, all dressed up.

566
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: And so sorry I interrupted you, but poke that hole

567
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: right there. So she said she saw someone with white hair,

568
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: someone with the white hair, two men too. Women. She

569
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: said she also heard some woman to say, you know,

570
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: shout explained news letters unquote. I've heard her say that

571
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: she heard several different things shouted. She actually changed her story,

572
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: uh kind of numerous times, which made her you know,

573
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: in the end, I'm sorry she changed her story of

574
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: hopping on a mule and writing out into the Yeah, yeah,

575
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: but she changed there. We should have they should have

576
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 1: asked the mule. I know than Meal probably would have

577
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: had more likely than Meal would have been more consistent.

578
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: But anyway, but her original account, at least as far

579
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: as now. She said she heard a shot and one

580
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: of the people went down, and then she heard screams

581
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: from a woman's A woman screamed, don't three times loudly.

582
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: Of course, you can't really scream softly, I guess, not easily. Yeah,

583
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: and then there were more shots and then uh uh,

584
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: another woman's voice shouted Henry. And it turns out there

585
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: were some Henry suspects in here, so uh, that's what

586
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: That's what the pig lady heard. And then she turned around, Well,

587
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: she turned her real around and left first obvious. Yeah, actually, yeah,

588
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: she was already leaving when she heard all the shouting

589
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: and the other shots. And you can't blame her. I

590
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: would have done the same thing, I think, so. Uh

591
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: and uh. With the police investigation everything, of course, they

592
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: took that into account, but they still didn't have any

593
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: really strong suspects, no evidence to really point the fingers

594
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: strongly at anybody. Uh, And so there were no indictments

595
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: just like that at that time. At that time, yeah,

596
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: that was two four years went by, and then there

597
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: was a little domestic dust up. It turns out the

598
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: riverend Halls and his wife's made her name was Louise

599
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: Geist and she was married to a guy named Arthur Real.

600
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: And in nineteen six Reel wanted to get a margin

601
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: lemon because they've been married for running what four years

602
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: or something like that, or maybe a little longer. And

603
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: during the whole things, you know, all these kind of things,

604
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: divorced and all, but whatever you can get a little

605
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: ugly little yeah, I kind of happened. And he stated

606
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: during this whole thing, uh, that that his wife, Louise

607
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: guys had said and did I mentioned she was the maid? Yeah?

608
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: I didn't mention that. Oh, I don't think I ever said. Okay,

609
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: yeah she was. She was a made at the Hall's

610
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: house or probably mansioned more likely that she was a

611
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: made there. And she said that she heard her scuttle

612
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: button in the house that the Reverend Hall was leaving,

613
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: that he was eloping with his hunting Eleanor. And she

614
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: said that she had knowledge that Frances and her brothers

615
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: and her cousin, another cousin named Henry h took off

616
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: in one after him. That's all she knew. And uh,

617
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: apparently he said, rial, this is Arthur Real again said

618
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: that she was given five thousand dollars in hush money

619
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: to keep her mouth shut about the whole thing. Do

620
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: you know how much that is today? Five sixty grand

621
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: today's money is a huge shut up payment. Although for

622
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: somebody who's just inherited millions, it's to drop in the

623
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: bucket for her, But for the maid it's a nice

624
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: little windfalls. Yeah, she wouldn't have had to keep working,

625
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: she could have left her job. I'm sure that the

626
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: guy who's trying to get the annulment probably brought that

627
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: up to his proof that she had money and didn't

628
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: need him, therefore the annulment could move forward. I'm sure

629
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: that's how that came out. Or he thought he was

630
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: entitled to part of it if it was still around. Yeah,

631
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: that had already been spent. Yeah, it's usually where that

632
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: stuff goes. Actually, even sixty, I could blow through sixty

633
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: pretty fast today. You could not then though, Yeah, wouldn't

634
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: bring everything to your door at that time. Well, but also,

635
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: things just costed less. Yeah they costed Yeah, they costed less.

636
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: They did costed less. Yes, that's a good point. Yeah,

637
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: that's all I want to get. I want to perfect

638
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: my time machine so I can go back in time

639
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: and you gotta you gotta make those time machines only

640
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: go forward. Is that what? It is very important? You

641
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: don't want to go back and be your own grandfather

642
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: four years after the fact. Oh yeah, so that's the Uh.

643
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: And so the word got out. It was picked up

644
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: by the New York Daily Mirror, and they ran a

645
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: bunch of stories on this. Sounds like a bunch of

646
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: stories is a bit of an understatement. Yeah, the tons

647
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: of stories about this they did, and uh, they sort

648
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: of brought the whole story back to life. It was.

649
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: It had been kind of more of a fammy when

650
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: you think about it. Since some people were put on trial.

651
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: Their lives probably would have been easier if this whole

652
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: annulment thing hadn't come up. You know, sleeping dogs would

653
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: have like, you know, just been left alone. Everything would

654
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: have been okay. But there was such a stink made

655
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: by the Daily Mirror that Harry Moore, who was governor

656
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: in New Jersey at the time, decided to order another

657
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: police investigation. Uh. And sot and so Francis and her

658
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: brothers and let me give you her brother's names, by

659
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: the way, Uh, Williams Stevens, Henry Stevens, and William was

660
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: the guy that was living at home in the house

661
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: with her. It was said to possibly have Asperger syndrome,

662
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: but of course he wasn't diagnosed. Yeah, yeah, uh. And

663
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: then Henry was the guy that was living down the

664
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: street a little bit. And then her cousin, Henry Carr.

665
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if I don't know if it's Carpenter

666
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: or just Carpenter, but it's like Carpenter but with a

667
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 1: D instead of a T. He lived what twenty away

668
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: something like that? Yeah, he was, he was, Yeah, and

669
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,959
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's that's a little less convenient to round

670
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: him up on short notice and haven't come over and

671
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: participate in the murder. Yeah, But there was a trial

672
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 1: and Francis and her two brothers were put on trial.

673
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: Henry Carpenter. I'm just gonna go with Carpenter's pronunciation here.

674
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: He wasn't died separately, but before the trial ended, the

675
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: charges against him were dropped. Apparently, what I mean the

676
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 1: main reason they liked him as well. One of the

677
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: pig Lady heard the word Henry being yelled number one

678
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: and number two. He was supposedly kind of a sharpshooter,

679
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: had guns and was handy with guns and yeah, so

680
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: he was Other than that, it was an substantial Yeah,

681
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: not barely, if even that. Really, So it was a

682
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: big It was a big trial lasted about five weeks,

683
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: and of course it was hugely covered by the press.

684
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: The famous people actually covered it, like Damon Runyon for example.

685
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: Is this the trial where the pig lady came to

686
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: trial in bed to testify? Yeah, she had come down

687
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: with cancer unfortunately, and so they just like wheelded literally

688
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: giant bed her in it and she's leaving her arms. Yeah,

689
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: it's laying there testifying and stuff. And of course, like

690
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: I said, her story was changing it and she didn't

691
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: get a lot of support from her mother, who was

692
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: stated in the spectator's gallery her mother was yelling a

693
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: liar at her. That's how that didn't help her with

694
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: the jury. Yeah. So the jury deliberated five hours and

695
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: delivered an not guilty verdicts. Shocking. Yeah. You know who

696
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: didn't testify at this the people who found the bodies. Oh,

697
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: that's right, that the lovers didn't. They never got isn't that. Well,

698
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: there's some there's some stinky history with them that I

699
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: want to bring up when we get into the theory section,

700
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 1: but there's probably a good reason that they weren't brought

701
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: up on the stand. Alright, let's time to get into theories.

702
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the first one, which we already kind

703
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: of like made fun of, but let's talk about it

704
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: for a second. Anyway, that's literally all I'm going to

705
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: give this. Yeah, murder suicide, Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the argument,

706
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it could have been that there was

707
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: a gun in his hand the locals took it. But

708
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: the problem I think that argues against this is you know,

709
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: the slit throat and the missing larynx and the happening

710
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: on his face. Yeah, there's that start to shoot yourself

711
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: in the head and then fall and arrange your hands

712
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: and have your hand to start being over you know,

713
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: a cut wound and heard you kill her for eartht

714
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: and then you and then you wrap it around her,

715
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: put around the ground, laid down next to her, and

716
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: then blow your brains out. Yeah. I don't think the

717
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: entry wounds, because they wound on him would have been

718
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: very difficult because it was still front to back ish,

719
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: which is very it's a very weird angle. So we

720
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: don't need to debate and I don't think any of

721
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: us believe that this is even remotely possible. No, I

722
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: don't think so either. So okay, uh, you know whose

723
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: idea was this years No, Devin, somebody whose initials are Day.

724
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk about our next cool theory, which is the

725
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: ku Klux Klan. I kind of like this one in

726
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: a in a weird sort of way. Yeah, there's really

727
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: no evidence, you know, it's kind of a shame. But

728
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: this theory was actually put forward by William Kunstler, who

729
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: some of you might have heard of, very famous like

730
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: civil rights attorney, kind of became a big, big, big

731
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: name in the sixties and seventies and stuff, and probably

732
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: a lot of her younger listeners haven't really heard of him,

733
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: but yeah, he was. He was a well known name

734
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: back in the day, and in the early sixties he

735
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: wrote a book about this case, which was called the

736
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: Hall Mills Murder Case. Original name colon the Minister and

737
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: the choir singer. But I do have to say, as

738
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: we said, fairness to the KKK counsider has actually been

739
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: criticized quite a bit for this series because he actually

740
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: doesn't really present any evidence to speak of. It's just

741
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: kind of entirely speculative in his book. And if you

742
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: look at photos, if you're looking for a racial angle,

743
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: if you look at photos of Eleanor Mills, she looks

744
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: like she could possibly maybe have a little bit of

745
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: African ancestry. Maybe maybe maybe. I mean, it's it's really

746
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: could have she could have Indian haag, Native American hairitange,

747
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: or she could just be pure solid white too. You

748
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: don't know. But it's it's hard to telling his old photographs.

749
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: He here's here's the problem when when we say this,

750
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: you and and both of us have looked at the

751
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: same photos. And what people need to remember is something

752
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: that was done as a practice was painting negatives back

753
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: in the day, and so people would go in and

754
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: they'd fix your eyebrows and yeah, they was. It was

755
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: the original photoshop, and so that his dramatically altered the

756
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: look of the images. I've had to go fix images

757
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: like that, and it is so tough because it's negatives

758
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: are so small and you just slip and you suddenly

759
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: give somebody a uni brow without me do Yeah, I know.

760
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: It's so you're right, it's very hard to tell. I mean,

761
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: and uh, frankly, even if she was a little bit,

762
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: like just a little bit black or suspected of it.

763
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: I can't I can't believe that would have actually driven

764
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: the New Jersey chapter of the KKK off the rails. Well,

765
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: here's that wasn't the main concern. It wasn't. I was

766
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: gonna say, that's the problem in kk K was they

767
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: were white, and they were Protestant, and they were trying

768
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: to defend the faith. They were more based on anybody

769
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: that they felt I was doing wrong by the not

770
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: only the race, but the religion at the same time.

771
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: So they would have they were a bit of a

772
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: moral crusade. And there's a lot of angles here, but

773
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: I'm looking at where they are and not being in

774
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: the South, that would I guess that was a little

775
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: a little more credence. I mean, if if your concern

776
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: is to kind of protect the faith a reverend cheating

777
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: on his wife with another marriage, it is. But I

778
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: also don't think I mean the you know, murders aside.

779
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: The treatment of these corpses was relatively respectful. Well it was.

780
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: And that's the thing about these guys are all about

781
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: sending a message. They leave their own calling card, and

782
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: they always they tend to make claims. And I don't

783
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: think the letters would have been torn up. I think

784
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: it would have been even maybe sent to the newspapers

785
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: a couple of days later them, or they would have

786
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: been left attacked and just stick to the ground with

787
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: a knife, I mean bodies or something like that. But

788
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: but the thing you have, the thing about it is

789
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: is they wouldn't have posed the bodies the way they did. Yeah,

790
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: and I do want to apologize to all of our

791
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: KKK listeners. We're just kind of, you know, trying to

792
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: get at where the thought might have been. Yeah, and

793
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure we got a lot of those guys. But well,

794
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: let's move on. So I think we've got to give

795
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: this one to fail. Okay, our next theory it was

796
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: the Zodiac Killer. Great similarities between the two, right. I

797
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 1: can't believe that you added this. It was just entirely random.

798
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: How old would he have had to have been he

799
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: could have I think that if he had been twelve

800
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: years old when he committed the murder, then he could

801
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: conceivably he would have been like what in his early

802
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: sixties when the Zodiac was on his crime spree, right

803
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: around that old You are stretching. I also happened. We

804
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: also happened to know that Ted Cruiz is the Zodiac Killer,

805
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: so he can't possibly have been that old. And it

806
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: wasn't Ted unless he or something maybe Benjamin Button ng.

807
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, I know, I just th there was.

808
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: You know, I've talked about Steve Hodell, that who wrote

809
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: the book Black Dall you Avenger, and wrote a book

810
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: about his dad, you know, being this Black Tellia killer

811
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: would also being the Zodiac Killer and everything else. And

812
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: so I thought i'd saw that in just a sort

813
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: of an unwash just Steve Hodell, even though yeah, obviously

814
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: it seems unlikely although it could have been maybe son

815
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: of Zodiac or father of Zodiac. What am I saying? Yeah,

816
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: but like family tradition. Yeah, I don't feel like that happened.

817
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: I don't think serial killing runs and families, so hopefully not. Well,

818
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: there's the Bloody Benders that's different though. That actually and

819
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: and actually nobody's really a hundred percent sure that those

820
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: people were even related by blood. There's also that. Yeah,

821
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: so we should probably not go too much into this.

822
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: I know this is something that people have asked us

823
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: to put on the list, and it is there, so

824
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: let's not talk about the bloody Benders. It's actually it's

825
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: kind of a fun little story. Yeah. Yeah, so you

826
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: have other theories, yeah yeah, yeah, so the Zodiac, Yeah yeah,

827
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: I think the actually there there were similarities, being a

828
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: lover's laying kind of case. But that's where it pretty much. Yeah,

829
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: because he didn't mutilate bodies or pose bodies. I mean,

830
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 1: he just wanted to people and shot them. Also, he

831
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: liked to tease people about it. You know, there was

832
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: that follow up aspect on the notes and all the

833
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: coded messages, yeah, which they still haven't broken. So there

834
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: was like a mental aspect to it that you would

835
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: have thought would have maybe come out. Although if it

836
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: was early days. Yeah, now I'm going to rule out

837
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: rualize the Zodiac. I think it um fact is that

838
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: there were lots of other serial killers around, as you know,

839
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: we talked about other ones like the Atlanta Ripper for example,

840
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: but you know, people wasn't around that Jack the Ripper

841
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: for that matter. I mean, you know, seriri killers have

842
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: been around a long time. Uh So, okay, well, scratch zodiac.

843
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: There's also random murder. But still, you know there's this

844
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: it's kind of a similarity. Would a random murder thrill

845
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: killer mutilate Eleanor's body and slitters a and also the

846
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 1: matter of the letters and the letters, Yeah, there's that,

847
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: and so it could be. Okay, let's let's just let's

848
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: just play this out a little bit. Let's say it

849
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: is a rando rando and the person comes up and

850
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: holds them up and then ends up killing them and

851
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: sees this lot of paper in his pocket and presumes

852
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: that it's money and then takes it out after he's

853
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: dead and discovers it's nothing but freaking love letters, which

854
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: are useless, they're worthless, and in frustration tears them up.

855
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: That but still, why pose them? Why then split her

856
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: throat and take her tongue in larynx? Why cover up

857
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: the crime scene in the way that he would have

858
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 1: or she would have had a stagecraft? That's all I got. Yeah,

859
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it's if it was a random thing or

860
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: or a robbery that you know what kind of went south,

861
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: then yeah, there's no reason to stick around and risk

862
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: getting caught by spending all that time leading here, imposing

863
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: the bodies and all that stuff. That very true. I

864
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: so regretfully got to scratch that one. Another one James Mills,

865
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: who was Eleanor's husband. Now, this guy really had a

866
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: good motive, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I'd say so. Uh.

867
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: He never really got serious consideration as a suspect, though,

868
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: he said when he was questioned by the police, he

869
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: said that he had never had had no idea that

870
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: the Reverend Hall and his wife were having a thing,

871
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: which later he kind of recanted. There were it's I've

872
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: heard it both ways. You know that he had actually

873
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: been aware of it and had been kind of a

874
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: source of tension. Well, it seems like the congregation seemed

875
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 1: to know it was happening, so it would be hard

876
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: to hide it from a member of the congregation. You

877
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: would think, uh, yeah, so yeah, it's one of those

878
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 1: things where they got to sign out in front. It's

879
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: got the changeable letters on it. I'm pretty sure doesn't know.

880
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: I guess he's blinking. Who yeah, So yeah, So he

881
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: had a good motive. But the one reason I think

882
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: that he was not the murderer is the mutilation. Again,

883
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: I disagree with that too. Well. I just think that

884
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: he would have been more likely to relieve the Reverend

885
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: of a few bodies I totally disagree with that. You

886
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: don't think he would have been because you know what,

887
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: because you know what that makes me think of is

888
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: like this expletive deleted was lying to me. I'm going

889
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: to tear out her, you know anything she could have

890
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: used to lie to me, especially she had, maybe even

891
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: point blank earlier that night, said no, nothing's going on.

892
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to meet him. Do you want to

893
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: come with me to prove it? And he said no, fine,

894
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: go and then followed and it was like the last

895
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: draw of like she's been lying to me this whole time,

896
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: Like I'm going to take her voice, even in death,

897
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: away from her so she could never lie to me again.

898
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: There's also the weird blame dynamic that happens between men

899
00:47:53,719 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: and women. So she suffered the most. And if Mr Mills,

900
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: yes Mr Mills felt like he was being wronged, she

901
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: was the one who was wronging him. I mean, still

902
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: killed the reverend, but it was her fault. She must

903
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: have been the one who initiated. She's the one who

904
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: betrayed me. She's the one who did that to me.

905
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: She could have been cheating with anyone. My wife did

906
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: this to me exactly. That's she's the worst. So that's

907
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: why I think that's why Devan and everyone's like, no,

908
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: we've got you've got that down on the wrong way.

909
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but not always that. That is why though

910
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: I do think that the next three theories kind of

911
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: go together nicely. Is that is that the mutilation and

912
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: the removal of the larynx and the tongue indicates to

913
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: me that this is a very personal I would agree

914
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: with that. Very personal murder. I would agree with that.

915
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: And also the posing of the bodies makes it seem

916
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: very perfect. I agree with the posing of the bodies.

917
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: I am still not completely convinced that the tongue and

918
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: the larynx have and at that time it's entirely possible

919
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: they were removed. Later, they could have been removed in

920
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: the first autopsy and not noted, and then when she

921
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: was buried, the second autopsy comes along and they're like, well,

922
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: that's weird, her tongue lyrics are gone. Well, you know, actually,

923
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned this actually one of my earlier theories,

924
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: but you guys were paying I think it's when we

925
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: were poo pooing the murder suicide, the murder suicide that said,

926
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 1: the yeah, so I was wondering, is if perhaps after

927
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: the first autopsy it wasn't even removed. But back in

928
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: those days, the medical schools and researchers, et cetera did

929
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: a lot more sketchy stop when it came to getting

930
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: corpses to train on and practice on and do experiments on.

931
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: And I could totally picture some researcher or medical student

932
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: or medical school taking her larynx in her tongue and

933
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: just saying, hey, she's acquired singer with the great voice.

934
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: That's kind of see what makes it? Tickets, See if

935
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: we can make figure out what makes for a good

936
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: singing voice. Yeah, I mean it's entirely possible to somebody.

937
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: We've talked about burke and hair before. It's the same

938
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yeah, And so it's entirely But but

939
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: even so, obviously I still think it was a very

940
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: personal crime because somebody did slit her throat. Yes, And

941
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: also I do think the murderer took out her larynx

942
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: because she was a singer in the choir. That's what

943
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: I think is significant about that is that she was

944
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: a singer in the choir. And well, imagine, for example,

945
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 1: let's talk about the next one, Francis. Yeah, let's talk

946
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: about the next one and then they will flesh this out,

947
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: because I think we're all in agreement that Mr mills

948
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: Is was kind of a bit of a patsy and

949
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: no wonder he didn't get charged. Yeah he was. But

950
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: but if you think about Francis, um, what would what

951
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: would her grievances against eleanor Ben? She lured her husband

952
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: away with number one, her beautiful face, which by the way,

953
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 1: got three bullet holes in it. Yeah, and her lovely

954
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: voice saying in the choir. I mean that's how they

955
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: kind of got drawn together, was she was sitting in

956
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: the choir and so I could sort of see, you know,

957
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 1: messing up her face and then cutting out of voice box.

958
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: It's kind of a retribution. The other thing that I

959
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: guess kind of makes me think that it probably was

960
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: more on Francis is that also, um, his face was

961
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: covered after he was killed. And I think the psychology

962
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: behind killing somebody that you've loved, regardless of if they

963
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: had a great relationship or not, somebody you've been with

964
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: for a long time, you might cover their face. You

965
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: don't have to look at it, so you don't have

966
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 1: to see their dead face, so that face was covered,

967
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: and then the competitor was mutilated and left uncomed and

968
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: left uncovered and kind of out to waste, so I

969
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: think by the animals. Yeah, and that then again, that's

970
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 1: that other side of that power dynamic that I was

971
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: talking about before, or which is with Mr Mills, he's

972
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: taking it out on her because she's betrayed him. For

973
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: Mrs Hall or Hill gonna keep I almost had it.

974
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: They sounds so similar. So for Mrs Hall, she's going

975
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 1: to be taking out her anger on the woman because

976
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: again this is that weird dynamic of she's to blame.

977
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: My husband's an idiot, but it's her fault. And then

978
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: well there's also a jealousy component. There's a whole bunch

979
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: packed into that that we could spend a long time

980
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: unpacked that we shouldn't because we are not professional, probably

981
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: just sound profiling. But yeah, that's why Frances is one

982
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: of my more favorite suspects in this in this case,

983
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: so I would agree with that, But I also don't

984
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: necessarily think that she did it herself. It's entirely possible

985
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: that somebody she knew maybe did it, or somebody she

986
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: hired maybe she could have hired it done. It's entirely possible.

987
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: And the theory I've had, and this kind of fits

988
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: with these, with the whole physical evidence, was what's that

989
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 1: there was somebody else's competitor of Eleanor in the church

990
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: who also had the hots for the reverend and who

991
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,479
Speaker 1: maybe perhaps wasn't quite as pretty and wasn't I didn't

992
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: have a good enough voice to get into the choir.

993
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 1: Too many, you're adding too many elements of that story, Joe.

994
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: It could have been somebody who was a member of

995
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: the congregation who simply did not think that what they

996
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: were doing was the right thing. I can boil it

997
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: down to something because much simpler, and it is you.

998
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: I think I said something like this before. But you know,

999
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: you're in the face of God, you're doing this, and

1000
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: you're a reverend. This is not okay and you need

1001
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: to be taught a lesson. Yeah, I could totally say that.

1002
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: I you know, since we did mention that Eleanor was

1003
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 1: much better looking than Francis, I will just go ahead

1004
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: and say turn about his fair play and that, like

1005
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of the referend, he's not a looker.

1006
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 1: Balding and like shovy and he's thought like a double chin,

1007
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: And like just the fact that we have these theories

1008
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: where it's like maybe there were five women fighting over him.

1009
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,879
Speaker 1: It's like, what, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying

1010
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: that it's a man or a woman that's a part

1011
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: of the congregation. I'm saying that this is a person

1012
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: who's trying to defend the fate. I just still, you know,

1013
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, well, yeah, yeah, I don't know,

1014
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: do you have any more theories? And I was I

1015
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: was wondering. I kind of considered the possibility that perhaps

1016
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: Frances wasn't actually directly involved. It might have been her

1017
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: brothers who did it. I guess there's some room for

1018
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: if the brothers were seeing that she was being so

1019
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: know that she was being so disrespectful, disrespected, if the

1020
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: whole congregation knew that this reverend was cheating on her,

1021
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: and so in the public eye, even people were kind

1022
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 1: of giggling behind it, behind her back, about it, behind

1023
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: her back, behind she knew about it, though, I would presume,

1024
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: I mean, she initially said she didn't know about it,

1025
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: but later statements seems to support the fact that yeah,

1026
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: just like everybody else she knew. Yeah, it's prudent if

1027
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: somebody says, hey, your husband and his lover were found dead,

1028
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 1: did you know he had a lover. I'm not going

1029
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: to discribe. I don't think anybody in their right mind

1030
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 1: would be like absolutely, I knew I would lie. Yeah,

1031
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: I would say no, I had no idea what. I'm horrified.

1032
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: I'm horrified he's dead. And also I'm horrified he had

1033
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: a lover. I know he was having sex with a woman.

1034
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 1: I thought he was gay. Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah,

1035
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do you have you have your book out? Though?

1036
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 1: I was letting Joe finish his last Yeah. Now the brothers,

1037
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: I mean again the same thing. I mean, the lack

1038
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: of evidence and everything else. I could totally see that

1039
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: they had a bit of a motive, you know, avenging

1040
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: their sister. It might be that again back to my

1041
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: theory about you know, if they had talk with her

1042
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: and she was going on and crying and crying and

1043
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 1: crying about oh my god, she's got these things. He's

1044
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: got this pretty face and this wonderful voice I have

1045
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 1: and I never will, you know, And so that I

1046
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: could totally see that the brother that lived with them.

1047
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: His fingerprint was found on the card, on the calling card. Yeah,

1048
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: but that's that's not that doesn't say anything because they

1049
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,959
Speaker 1: lived in the same house and the calling card could

1050
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: have he could have it could have been out of

1051
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: the pocket dozens of time. It doesn't point to anything,

1052
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: but it is one thing that you will see. And

1053
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: her brother's fingerprint was um yeah yeah, yeah, I mean,

1054
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: good luck at a conviction. But yeah, yeah, obviously it

1055
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:41,479
Speaker 1: didn't work. Yeah, yeah, no, they all went free. And yeah,

1056
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: the pig lady I think went on to reward. I

1057
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: don't think she survived about with cancer alas. Yeah, that

1058
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: did kind of do her in unfortunately. Yeah. So there's

1059
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: one thing that I have that you've left out that

1060
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 1: I kept wondering about, and that was Schneider and Bombers,

1061
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: the couple that found the body. We've talked about this before.

1062
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: Leads you to the body. They they had some weird

1063
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: stuff going on because the night before the bodies were found,

1064
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: they were seen heading that direction though they were having

1065
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: an argument. She said or he said, so this is

1066
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: Raymonds said that he saw his girlfriend Pearl with several

1067
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: other men in that area, one of whom it is

1068
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: supposedly was her father. His name is Clifford Hayes. So

1069
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: there's there's this there they were in the area. Hayes,

1070
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: I believe it is is the one who had a gun,

1071
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: so he actually had a gun. There's all these there

1072
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: was um she got locked up for a while for

1073
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: what sounds like contempt of court, and then her father

1074
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: got locked up for a while under charges of incest,

1075
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: and the boyfriend got if he didn't get locked up,

1076
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: he almost got locked up one time. So this is

1077
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: part of the reason that they were never actually brought

1078
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: to the stand at the trial, because they were very

1079
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: questionable uh witnesses. But at the same time, if they

1080
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: were in the area, it seems that they may have

1081
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: had the means to commit this murder. The set of murders, Now,

1082
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,479
Speaker 1: what was their motive, I don't know, or maybe there wasn't.

1083
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: It might have been kind of one of those thrill

1084
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: kill situations. But they they are totally a set of suspects,

1085
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: and because they were discounted and pushed out of the

1086
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: story pretty quickly. It's one of those ones that I

1087
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: can't help but always wonder about. Have a theory. Okay,

1088
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: do you know how old. The um the father was

1089
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: the well, she was fifteen. I'm going to guess the

1090
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: father was in his thirties to early for those days,

1091
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: so it could have been, like I'm starting to suspect

1092
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: that maybe it's a case of mistaken identity to men

1093
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: that they were out and he was like, I see

1094
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: you with your dad all the time, and she's like, no,

1095
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 1: it's not my end. He's like, look, there's your dad

1096
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: there and shoots him and it turns out actually, oops,

1097
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: it's the referend. And this whole time, Eleanor is like,

1098
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: oh my, you killed him? What is going on? And

1099
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: then obviously they have to kill her because they're questionable

1100
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: because it's a crazy scenario, right because it right well

1101
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: or not or you know that happens later, you know,

1102
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: one of them slits her throat. I don't know. I mean,

1103
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: there's possibility that was total case of mistaken identity that

1104
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: he thought it was the father at first, and then

1105
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 1: they just had to cover their tracks. Actually, the throat

1106
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: slitting was because she refused to die because they were

1107
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: shot with a thirty two. Uh, there were a lot

1108
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: of thirty two revolves, like five shot thirty two revolvers

1109
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: and circulation. Back in those days, you were very small, handy,

1110
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: little pocket guns. So one shot goes into the reverend's

1111
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: head and it kills him. Three shots go into her head,

1112
00:59:57,920 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: and believe me, thirty two, and the thirty two was

1113
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: in anemic little round. It's entirely conceivable that somebody could

1114
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: get shot three times with the thirty two and still

1115
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: not be totally dead. Well, especially if it was the

1116
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: right parts of the brain, which she got shot in

1117
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 1: some weird spots, so they could have the one below

1118
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 1: her eye socket could have just gone into her the

1119
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: base of her skull and her neck and done damage.

1120
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: The one that went in above her eye should have

1121
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: done her in, but maybe not, maybe not. People survived

1122
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: some instantly fatal. Yeah. Now the thirty two is, like

1123
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: I said, an anemic enough little round. And again, back

1124
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,479
Speaker 1: in those days, they didn't have jacketed bullets so much.

1125
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: It would have been just a lead bullet. So it's

1126
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: entirely possible if the heavy the heavy plaiting in your

1127
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: forehead could actually keep it from penetrating into your brain pan.

1128
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: And it was a five shot most likely that was

1129
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: typical for those little pocket revolvers. It might have been

1130
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: a misfire on the last one or whatever, or they

1131
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: just didn't they heck with it and just cut her

1132
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 1: throat because she's not dying, so let's cut her throat. Job. Yeah,

1133
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, maybe and maybe she was making noise, so

1134
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: they decided to you know, it's crazy scenario, Why I'll

1135
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: go with it. She was making noise, So they were like,

1136
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: we'll take that, thank you, and then posed them and

1137
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 1: then walked away, and then you know, a couple of

1138
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: days later. Yeah, I mean, there's there's a whole bunch

1139
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: of scenarios that could go on there, and I and

1140
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 1: Joe brings up really good points about the actual weapon

1141
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: that's used, so it kind of maybe adds some whether

1142
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: it's these two or three or any of the others,

1143
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 1: kind of explains like maybe why the throat was actually cut.

1144
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: It's one possibility for it. Yeah, but as far as

1145
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: there isn't. These two that found the bodies were a

1146
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: little questionable characters, but I don't know, and maybe they're

1147
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: just dumb. But for me, if I had committed a murder,

1148
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: I would stay the hell away from the murdercy and

1149
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: I wouldn't come wandering back and go, oh, look, somebodies,

1150
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: let's go to the police. So many times have we

1151
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: seen that, We're like the smart killer would stay away,

1152
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: and instead it turns out it's really dumb killers, like, hey,

1153
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: look at this, I found a body, and some of

1154
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: them just can't resist that. For me, I don't know,

1155
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: For whatever reason, always seems like something that people who

1156
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: are pathological about killing do less than people who like

1157
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: accidentally might have come If it's okay, I think that

1158
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: we've we've beaten this one almost completely into the ground.

1159
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: All I'm going to say is that if these two

1160
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: or three folks were to do a very impulsive set

1161
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: of murders, then it would not be beyond them to

1162
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: have the to be impulsive enough to say, let's find

1163
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: him too. Yeah. No, I know it's entirely possible. That's

1164
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: just their egos wanted. They just wanted to be involved

1165
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: in this story, you know, And it happens a lot

1166
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: with a problem. Dot Com is so freaking big, you know.

1167
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 1: I know, that's why you get these killers to try

1168
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: to insert themselves into the investigation. That happens a lot.

1169
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: And that's why if I do that, if I kill anybody,

1170
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 1: which I'm not applying I'm doing, but I'm gonna stay

1171
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: the hell away. We know, hy, you guys got any

1172
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: more theories? All right, let's do a little housekeeping here.

1173
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 1: Let's you guys probably want to know if we have

1174
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: one of those website things. Yes, we do. Actually, it

1175
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: turns out which is got It's called Thinking Sideways podcast

1176
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: dot com. And you can go out and download episodes

1177
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: or listen to them right there and there, and there's

1178
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: all kinds of other cool stuff there too. We've gotten merched.

1179
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 1: There's links to Zazelin Red Bubble, you can you can

1180
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: get shirts, mugs, stickers, and all kinds of stuff that

1181
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 1: merch off of our website. Uh. You can also find

1182
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: us on iTunes where you can subscribe and you can

1183
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: give us a rating and review, preferably really great review

1184
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: and a great rating. Uh. And of course we you

1185
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: can stream as damn near anywhere, including Google Play. And

1186
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: we're on social media. You guys know what that is, right? Yeah? Okay,

1187
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: Facebook that we have a group and we have a page,

1188
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 1: so join the group and there's a lot of fun,

1189
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are posting stuff and it's

1190
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: a lot of fun than it. Uh. And we are

1191
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways. Yeah, and yeah,

1192
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: and so yeah, we twit a lot. Uh. And subreddit,

1193
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: we are thinking sideways of course. Uh. In our little subreddit,

1194
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: there's some activity. What's going on our subread these days stuff.

1195
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: There's actually a lot of emails coming through from conversations

1196
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,439
Speaker 1: and stuff, so it's been pretty busy. Yeah yeah uh.

1197
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: And then last of all, if you'd like to contact

1198
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: us for any reason. You want to suggest a cool story,

1199
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 1: a great mystery, or you want to like complain, or

1200
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: you want to tell us, especially me, how awesome we are. Yeah,

1201
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 1: we like that. Uh, so send us an email at

1202
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. And uh, alright,

1203
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: so so much for all that stuff. Any final thoughts

1204
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: before we stick a fork in it? No, yeah, no,

1205
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: but I got this really cool piece of cherry tree

1206
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: crab I want to show. Yeah, great grandpa gave me this. Yeah,

1207
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: I know. I got a piece of wood from my

1208
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: great grandpa too, and it's a treasured heirloom. Alright, so

1209
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: chat everybody. We will see you next week. Bye bye, bye, guys,