WEBVTT - Salman Rushdie 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.720 Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:05.280 and Adami Studios. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:10.639 In his most recent book, A Beautiful, Clear Collection of Essays, 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.320 Language of Truth, Salmon Rushti, my friend writes in his 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.599 first line that before books, there were stories, and that 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:25.160 children ask for stories as they ask for food, stories 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:30.000 and food, food and stories, food and family. Salmon has 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.160 been a member of our family for over thirty years. 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.040 When we were planning dinners when salmon was coming, I 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.400 would be thinking about what to eat, and my husband, Richard, 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.880 and my son Rue would be planning to make sure 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:46.760 that the ping pong balls and the bats were in 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.839 top condition. For Salmon was one of the few people 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.640 who could beat Richard at the game. When I was 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.160 once falsely quoted as saying to Rue, why did you 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.600 let Salmon win? Salmon almost didn't speak to me for 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.959 over a year. But speaking is what we're going to 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:06.760 do today. That's what we're here for. 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:08.920 Hi, someone, Hello, Ruthie. 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.200 So it's nice we're here in the River Cafe and 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.600 a rainy day for change. But would you like to 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:15.520 read the recipe? 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:24.199 Yes, this is a recipe for marinated grilled lamb serve six. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:29.400 The ingredients. Five garlic cloves, peeled and crushed, two tablespoons 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.520 chopped fresh rosemary leaves, a good pinch of coarsely ground 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.280 black pepper, one leg of spring lamb, boned and butterflied, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:42.040 two tablespoons of fresh lemon juice, three tablespoons of olive oil, 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:48.280 and one tablespoon of sea salt. Mix together the garlic, rosemary, 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.240 and black pepper. Rub into the cutside of the meat. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.280 Place the lamb in a shallow dish and pour over 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.320 the lemon juice and olive oil. Turn over a couple 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.680 of times, then cover and leave to marinate at room 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:08.359 temperature overnight or for at least four hours, turning occasionally. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.000 Remove from the marinade and pat dry. Season and carefully 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.280 place on a hot grill. Brown on one side until 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:20.480 very dark, then turn over, lower the heat and continue 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.760 to cook for at least eight minutes on each side. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.680 Serve with salsa verde or fresh horseradish sauce. 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:32.239 Thank you, so when I asked you to choose a recipe, 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.280 you didn't even take a breath, You didn't pause, You 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.160 just said immediately grilled marinated lamb. 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:39.560 I was wondering, why. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:44.400 Well you know, in my family, we've always been big carnivores. 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:49.960 We eat a lot of meat, so I know, you know, 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.120 meat is unfashionable in some quarters these days. But it 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:54.880 was always going to be a meat recipe. And I'm 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.160 just thinking, which was the thing that I always chose 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:58.239 what I came to each other? 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.519 And it was always that the menu today, you know, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.200 and I think, interestingly enough, it was actually on the 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.560 very first menu of the very first day, which had 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.440 like four things on the menu about average price of 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:11.960 five pounds, and one of them is grilled marinated lamb. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:13.840 Well there you are, you see, go right back to 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:14.520 the beginning here. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.520 Yeah, and I think that's probably when we met, was 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.959 just before the River Cafe opened, maybe early eighties, middies 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.560 and so. But I'd really like to start with with Mumbai. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.840 We were born there, and what are your memories of 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:29.160 food and memories. 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.520 Born and raised there? And my memory of food is 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:37.360 home cooking, yeah, and my mother's kitchen and the kind 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.320 of flavors that came out of that. My mother didn't 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:44.080 like very highly spiced food. She didn't like chilis, so 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.840 the food was always quite mild. In fact, my sister 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.160 Samine and I grew up on this food. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.280 So your mother was the cook shed. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.880 Well, she cooked, but she also I mean we had, 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.080 you know, a cook, and she would always train the 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.680 cook in the food of the household. And one of 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:04.840 the things I've always thought about India is that in 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:10.400 middle class kitchens, kitchens which employ cooks, there's always a 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:12.800 copy book is it's called hanging on a hook And 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.880 in that book are the recipes of the family. And 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.320 I've always thought if somebody could just go and gather 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.400 the recipes in those copy books, that would be the 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.479 greatest Indian cookbook of all. 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.119 Do you remember your grandmother? Was your mother's mother a cook? 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.440 Yeah, my mother's mother was not a cook. My mother's 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:29.880 mother sort of shouted at. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.719 Cooks, ah, okay, yeah in that way. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:35.000 Do you think she knew what she wanted? 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.080 Well, yeah, she was a grubby old lady. I don't know. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:39.919 I wouldn't have liked to be cooking at her kitchen. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:41.840 Oh really? And what about your mother and her? 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.240 But my mother was very a gentle person, you know. 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.960 And I also had an Ayah nanny from South India, 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.400 came from Mangalore, which has its own very distinctive cooking 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.320 her kind of pickles and chutney's got into midnight'staurant because 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.240 I grew up on those. There was a particular green 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.200 chutney which is famously in the book. It was just 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.400 a lot of green things chopped up with a lot 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.880 of chilies. It was very particular South Indian recipe that 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:13.200 arrived in our house through her go and South Indian 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.400 Aya mary mayonnaises. She was called lived to one hundred 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:20.240 and two did she spoke seven languages and was illiterate. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.320 There's a line somewhere in Midnight's Children where where the 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.640 character the narrator talks about stirring feelings into food. And 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.120 I always believe that that if you're in a good mood, 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:34.719 the food tastes one way, and if you're in a 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.560 bad mood, the food tastes another way. You know, that 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:42.200 sense of emotion, your own emotion getting into the cooking. 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:43.640 You know, it's something I always thought. 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.320 Did your mother put an emotion into her cooking? 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.839 Yeah? I mean she actually she wasn't like a great chef, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.839 but she enjoyed it. Yeah, she enjoyed it, So the 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:53.840 food was enjoyable. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:54.919 What about your father? 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:55.960 My father. 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.760 A Friday day never. Never. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.520 I don't think so, yeah, because I do talk to 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.000 a lot of men who were discouraged from going into 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:05.919 the kitchen, you know. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.040 Yeah, Well, I mean I wasn't discouraged, but I was 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.880 only thirteen when I left home to go to boarding school. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.200 So and then food was a whole other thing. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.960 Yeah, well that country? Did you go before we leave Mumbai? 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.080 Did you when you were growing up in Mumbai? 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:22.559 Was food? 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.440 Would you go to the markets? Because it must have 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.080 been a very rich culture of food. 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.200 Well there's, first of all, there's this wonderful covered market 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.480 in what is now called South Bombay but was then 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.080 just called Bombay, a place called Crawford Market where you 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.520 can buy everything from like hair dryers to live chickens. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.080 And Crawford Market was an incredibly exciting place to go, 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.000 thronging with life, very noisy and as I say, with 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.880 everything you can imagine buying, including lots and lots of 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.320 food and fruit and vegetables and chickens. 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.240 And you were allowed to go there, there. 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.679 Was no I went very often there. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.000 Did you travel throughout India? Did your parents take care. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.640 Making See my father's family was originally from Delhi. Although 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:10.680 my parents have moved to Bombay before I was born, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:12.920 but he had still had a lot of connections and 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.000 he had business in Delhi and sometimes I would go 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.480 with him and stay in a hotel in Deli and 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.840 sort of mess around while he did his work. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.000 But did you go to restaurants there? 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.720 Yeah? And I mean and Delhi of course is the 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.360 heart of North Indian cuisine. So that what's Moclai cooking 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.880 is it's called the cooking that is left behind by 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:32.560 the Mongol. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.120 Empire, right, And how does that differ from southern It's. 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:40.280 Richer, you know, it uses a lot of yogurt and 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.960 ghi and stuff like that. And it's also I mean, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.280 the further south in India you go, the more vegetarian 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.560 the cuisine becomes. From the further north you go, the 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.240 more meat orients it goes. And that's just the difference 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.640 between Muslim culture in the north, where the Muslim conquerors 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.400 were there for hundreds of years, and the Hindu culture 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.240 of the south, which is largely vegetarian. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.120 And when you came, you said, you said you were thirteen, 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:05.880 when you did your whole family. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:06.200 Come to London? 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:07.480 No, I just got sent to boarding. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.800 Sent you to boarding school. Wow. 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.960 Wow, I'm sure there's a lot we could explore in 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.360 the difference between as a thirteen year old going to England. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.920 But food wise, no subject. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.160 Well where would you go on that subject? 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.200 I mean, the food was kind of inedible, you know, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.760 it was a dreadful school food. But it, like this said, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.839 when we got overcooked beef burger patties, that was the 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:34.839 highlight of the week. 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.120 Yeah, did you mind or did you just get used 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:37.360 to it? 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:39.960 No? I just I mean I didn't like much about school, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.920 and the food was certainly part of what I didn't like. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:48.559 I was quite isolated, but I really didn't like boarding school. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.400 And actually when I left, I mean, I had got 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.240 my place at Cambridge, but I didn't want to go. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.599 You know, I said to my parents, I said, just 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:58.920 let me go to the university here. Finally there's good 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:03.960 universities here. I go. My father had been to King's College, 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.440 Cambridge and I had got in, and so he was 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.200 very keen that I should follow him. And in the 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.800 end I went, And actually I'm very glad I went 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.079 because it was a very different experience than school. You know, 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:16.040 I had a much better. 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:30.040 Time going from Cambridge to London you have your own apartment. 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.520 Well, no, I mean my college friends and I there 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:38.280 were five of us who rented a place just off 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.040 the New King's Road, on the sort of corner of 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.080 the Wandsworth Ridge Road in the New King's Road, five 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:48.240 bedroom house, five pounds each, nineteen sixty. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.240 Eight, nineteen sixty eight. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.160 Yeah, those were the days. 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:54.160 And what did you eat there? 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.040 Do There was a kitchen, soho we would all pile 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.280 in and make spaghetti. You know. 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.800 So London in the sixties, working in an advertising agency, 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.240 you weren't part of the Martini lunch of no. 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.960 No, no, no no. I mean I worked in two 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.400 or three different agencies for a long time at Ogilvy 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.400 and made that. But in those days, Ogilvy's was kind 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.240 of more or less on Waterloo Bridge. I mean, if 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:21.760 you were to go all the way down the strand 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.000 and turn right to walk over Waterloo Bridge, it was 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.840 just there. There wasn't much I mean there you would 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.119 you would walk into Covent Garden if you wanted to 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.880 get something to eat. So, I mean, I've always remembered 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.480 the day when the fruit and vegetable market closed in 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.040 Covent Guard. Yeah, because what happened is. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:42.400 Can I ask you that it was? 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.680 It must have been in the early seventies, you know. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.760 But what happened was that the entire neighborhood, the streets 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.120 were full of rats because the rats all had nothing 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.120 to eat, you know, and they swarmed. I mean it 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.600 was amazing. You would walk on the strand, which with 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:02.319 that had its usual crowds the rat and the rats 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.120 headed over the bridge and I think they found their 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:06.160 way to nine Elms. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.079 That's where the new that's where the new cover of garden. 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.440 Yeah, but it was an extraordinary day. The rats took 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:17.440 over London. 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.520 And did they did? Ogilvy and meither. Did you ever 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:21.440 meet David Ogilvy? 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.839 I was just in his presence on one occasion, I know. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.199 But I was working full time to begin with. But 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.840 then I managed to get a job which was either 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.360 two or three days a week, and and that gave 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.520 me either four or five days a week to stay home. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.160 And right, do you have a discipline? 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.440 Yeah? I mean my idea, which is probably very bad 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.199 in terms of how one should eat, is that you 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:46.080 should work hungry. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:48.640 Ah okay, tell me about that. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.520 In other words, you know, if I've had a nice meal, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.560 I can't write just I get slow and sleepy, you know. 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.280 And so my view is work first. 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.240 Tell me about you're working day and food. 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.680 Well, I mean I just in the morning, I have 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.920 virtually nothing other than a cup of coffee. I mean 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.000 sometimes I have some fruit juice with it, but that's 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.959 not much more than that really, And then then I. 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.200 Go to work, you know, for how long. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.160 How long depends where I am in the writing process, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:24.120 because in the early stages of writing a book, when 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.480 it's making something out of nothing, then you know, two 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.400 or three hours a day, and really you're burned out 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:31.920 and you start writing things that you know you're not 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.880 going to use. But in the later part of a book, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.880 when you're writing a final version, I work all the time. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.000 I work like twelve hours, thirteen, fourteen hours a. 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.840 Day, and you don't start to eat. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.160 Then I do sometimes, because I mean the hardest thing 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.640 is the blank page. Once you've got a version there, 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.439 no matter how approximate it is, working on that is 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.960 less difficult than the first active invention. And then sometimes 0:12:58.000 --> 0:12:59.520 I do it. Yeah, I do sometimes have a bit 0:12:59.520 --> 0:12:59.959 of lunch. 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.720 Do you like to go out, Yes, I like to 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:03.000 go out. 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.440 I mean, you know, living in New York. That's what 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.880 everybody does. I do it before the pandemic. It's what 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.240 everybody did, and now again it's beginning to be what 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:13.160 everybody can do. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:14.000 Restaurants. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:15.760 When you walk in a room in a restaurant, what 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.480 do you like to see? Do you have a feeling about, well, 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.040 the kind of restaurant you want to be in. 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.520 Well, you know, the grand old restaurants, so once we 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.200 just have a great feeling in them. You know, if 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.520 you walk into Indosine or Balthazar or the Waverley in 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.240 you think this is a place you want to be. 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.120 This is not another one of those places. But also 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.040 I think what's interesting about places like that, Like Industan's 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.520 been there since the mid nineteen eighties, and the food 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.960 has never dropped in quality. You know, it's it's obviously 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:47.920 not anymore what it used to be, which is like 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.760 the hottest ticket in town. But they've never allowed the 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.920 food to become ordinary, you know. 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.720 Yeah, when I talked to Michael Kine, he said that 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.400 he'd never done a movie deal that didn't take place 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.560 in a restaurant, and it was always over at lunch. 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.800 In Hollywood, you go out to lunch and you discuss 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.480 the deal for the movie and then I don't know 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.400 if that still goes on, but did you do it 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:11.320 with your publishers? 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:12.199 An you agent? 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.600 I remember when I was looking for an American agent 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.600 being taken out for a very swanky lunch at the 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.080 Russian tea room by a very powerful agent whose name 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.640 I won't mention, and she was so kind of grand 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.480 at me that it was actually off putting you. And 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:34.480 meanwhile there was this other agent that was wooing me 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.520 who had an office which was one and a half rooms. 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:41.040 It was like him and a secretary and a xerox machine. 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.320 But he was so dynamic and energetic. I thought, I 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.040 want that one, not the fact that you know. And 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.280 that's how I came to a point Andrew Willy, and 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:51.880 it's the best decision I ever made. 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.440 Yeah, you learn a lot about somebody in a restaurant. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.120 Yeah, it teaches you. Do they thank the waiter? Do 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.760 they share their food? Do they eat quickly? And I 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.960 think that's why people go for dates in a restaurant, 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:04.400 don't you? 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:05.640 Or why tells you what? 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.000 It tells you? If people have good manners, you know? 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.200 And that used to be something when we were kids 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.800 that we were taught, you know, how to behave. I'm 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.040 not sure people are quite taught that in the same 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.880 way now, but some people have it naturally, you know. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.320 And I think it's incredibly appealing when somebody has good manners, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.320 as you say, when they're polite to the white. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.640 Stuff, or conversely, if they're rude to the white stuff, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:32.720 you never want to see them again. 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.120 If they're rude, forget about it. Yeah, it's over. And 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.080 I'm always shocked when I see that happening. So I 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.640 think good manners and you know, you are what you eat, 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.040 don't you. So it's it's very interesting decide. 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.840 About food is seduction? Would you ever want to seduce 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:48.760 a woman through food or watch it? 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:49.960 I do think that works. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:51.480 It does. 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.320 I've found out from interviewing other people that they can 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.160 remember the first meal they cooked a woo a woman, 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.720 you know, or what they how they tried to or 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.760 go to a restaurant to see, you know what about. 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.000 It happened the other way round one or two people 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.400 who've cooked meals for me in order to that work. 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:10.400 Did that work out? 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:13.640 Yeah? 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:14.920 And dates at restaurants? 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:19.640 Do you think that I'm not sure that I'm not 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:21.440 sure that a restaurant is a great place for a 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:25.800 first date. Yeah, it's I think it's more interesting to 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.960 to do something else. I go for a walk, something, 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.600 something with less pressure on it, you know, and maybe 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.680 go out to dinner. When you worked out that you 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.880 might enjoy spending the time together. Yeah, because one of 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:38.440 the worst things in the world is to sit in 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.720 a restaurant knowing after ten minutes that you that you 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:43.560 really want to leave. Yeah, so I think it's a 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:44.560 good second date. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.880 And what about right now? Who's cooking in your how 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.000 are you cooking? Are you cooking or I'm going. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.080 You know, I mean I have a partner and she's 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.080 And also, you know, New York is New York. You 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.520 can order in Yeah, And especially in this pandemic, a 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.840 lot of restaurants as a surviving method, you know, restaurants 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:08.320 which never delivered are now delivering, and you want to 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.760 do that because you want to help these places survive. 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.080 I've read every one of your novels, and I got 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.920 to know you through your novels. And a really pivotal 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.560 book in my life was The Jaguar Smile because as 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.760 an American, nicaragen is so close it was so intensely 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.639 political and resonated. Tell me about going to Nicaragua. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.680 Well, what happened was that in the mid eighties, when 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.520 the Contra War began, I became kind of involved with 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.480 thing here called the Nicaraguan Solidarity Campaign and was involved 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:56.680 in protesting against the way in which the then American 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:01.160 administration was siding with the Contra in order to try 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:05.399 and crush this tiny country, you know. And then I 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.080 was at a literary festival in New York in fact, 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.760 and I met various Nicaraguan writers. It's one who had 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.159 been invited there and they said they invited me. So 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.000 I went as a guest of the writers' union, I guess, 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.240 you know, And and I went. I thought I would 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.720 probably write something, but I thought it would probably be 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.760 a newspaper article or something. And instead what happened is 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.960 I got I kind of fell in love with the place, 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.040 and I got obsessed with its tragedy and came back 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.840 and ended ended up writing something. It's a short book, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.520 it's but it's a book leg thing. And one of 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.520 the things that talking of food that was heartbreaking was 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:49.440 how great the shortages were. I mean, I remember staying 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.840 in this guesthouse is a government guesthouse that was made 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:57.560 available to me. And in the morning, going down to breakfast, 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.840 and there were you know, two boil eggs, and I said, 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.200 I had this interpreter who was always there with me 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.920 because my Spanish is not very good. And I said 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:09.600 to her, look, you know, I don't really eat a 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.440 big breakfast. And she said to me, you know, you 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:15.120 should eat these eggs because they were the only eggs 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.400 in the market today. They've been provided for you eat 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:25.119 the damn eggs. And I just was one indication, you know, 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:29.399 of how impoverished. I mean, we went to I remember 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:34.120 meeting a farmer who said that it was so hard 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.520 for him to make any money that when he wanted 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.040 to service his tractor he had to sell a cow. 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.680 That's not the thing you can do very long, you know, 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.760 because you run out of cows. So it was horrifying 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:55.879 how badly off people were. And then how kind of 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:57.960 in a way pro American they were, you know, so 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:03.000 they want the things that everybody loved. Everybody loved major 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.879 League baseball. You know, Ni Karagan's crazy about baseball. But 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.480 the thing is that the dictatorship which preceded the Sandinistas. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.680 The Somosa dictatorship had been entirely in the thrall of 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.159 the United States, and the tragedy of Nicaragua is that 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:23.159 the Sandinista revolution spawned another dictatorship, you know, so that 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.760 now we have the Ortega brothers, Daniel Ortego, who is 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.960 as bad as any Somosa. I mean, I did on 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.200 one occasion actually had dinner at the house of Daniel 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:39.200 Ortega with the whole Sandinista leadership, and there there was 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.560 kind of a being explained to me that the banquet food, 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.840 you know, but the banquet food felt a little revolting 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.879 given what I'd experienced in the rest of the country. 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:50.199 What was it, do you remember? 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.359