Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as
Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not
Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show
Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use
Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna
Speaker 1: revisit the issue of I Begain. I begain the extraordinary
Speaker 1: psychedelic substance from the emergence from the Aboga plant in Gabone.
Speaker 1: We did talk about this about a year ago on
Speaker 1: the episode with the Nitri Mugianis. But I wanted to
Speaker 1: come back to this and I asked around who should
Speaker 1: I have as a guest And the name that kept
Speaker 1: popping up is Hattie Wells. Hattie lives in the UK.
Speaker 1: She's been a psychedelic practitioner UM for many years. She's
Speaker 1: an ethnobotanist. She's also been involved in drug policy reform.
Speaker 1: She's got over twenty years experience researching and working with
Speaker 1: psychedelic She's been an ib GAIN treatment provider in the
Speaker 1: UK for several years now, and she's also working on
Speaker 1: a couple of clinical trials, one involving I Began, the
Speaker 1: other one about a drug called five M e O
Speaker 1: d MT which we've not yet really gotten into on
Speaker 1: psychoact yet. And she's worked for a TRANSFORM, which is
Speaker 1: the UK based drug policy form organization, and for the
Speaker 1: Beckley Foundation headed by Amanda Fielding, and also now working
Speaker 1: for ice EARS, which is one of the leading organizations
Speaker 1: in the world involved in re arch on psychedelics and advocacy.
Speaker 1: It's been the host of the World Ayahuasca Congress, and
Speaker 1: I guess I should finally say that she's a director
Speaker 1: of the Breaking Convention, which is the UK's largest convention
Speaker 1: on psycholic consciousness. So had do you. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining me and my listeners today on Psychoactive.
Speaker 1: Hi Ethan, thank you so much for inviting me. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's start off by just talking about the basics of
Speaker 1: I be Gaine, and I'll be quite frank with our audience.
Speaker 1: I've always been scared of iby Gain. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: tried many of the psychedelics, even those that are reputation
Speaker 1: for causing to throw up or things like that, But
Speaker 1: but I began, you know, it just seems bigger and
Speaker 1: batter and maybe more powerful in its therapeutic value. I
Speaker 1: know that some people will do it at lower doses
Speaker 1: for kind of self exploration and spiritual insight, but it's
Speaker 1: most famous for its use in the treatment of addiction
Speaker 1: and use at higher doses. What do we know among
Speaker 1: the thousands or tens of thousands of reports of people
Speaker 1: having done this, about the variety and commonality among experience
Speaker 1: with with high dose I begain in terms of treating addiction. Okay,
Speaker 1: So even it's interesting that you think of it as
Speaker 1: the kind of bigger, badder psychedelic because actually, as far
Speaker 1: as psychedelics go, it's a relatively benign and the agin
Speaker 1: in terms of its um in terms of its strength
Speaker 1: of kind of visionary experience. So the experience itself is
Speaker 1: characterized by what people terms sort of waking dreams, internal visions,
Speaker 1: but most of that is with eyes closed. So it's
Speaker 1: actually quite easy to pull yourself out of it. And
Speaker 1: you know, if you don't like what you're seeing. To
Speaker 1: open your eyes and you know, you don't have the
Speaker 1: kind of pronounced ego dissolution or dismemberment or typical sort
Speaker 1: of peak or mystical experience that you might have on
Speaker 1: other psychedelics. So in that respect, you know, it's perhaps
Speaker 1: not as daunting as people have people tend to think
Speaker 1: or have made out. But obviously the length of the experience,
Speaker 1: you know, is is for most people somewhat daunting because
Speaker 1: it does last, you know, depending on the dose you take.
Speaker 1: But if we're talking about kind of flood dose or saturation,
Speaker 1: does the higher end, which is anything really above twelve
Speaker 1: milligrams peculogram to twenty milligrams peculiar gram that people don't
Speaker 1: tend to go that high anymore, but that um that
Speaker 1: can last anywhere from sort of twenty four thirty six
Speaker 1: forty eight hours really, So that is the piece that
Speaker 1: I think, you know, might make Ibergain seem somewhat daunting.
Speaker 1: You are sort of immobilized, so you'll be lying down
Speaker 1: on a bed for at least at least sort of
Speaker 1: sixteen eighteen hours without moving, and you can't move, and
Speaker 1: that that is definitely an intense experience, and many people purge,
Speaker 1: many people do vomit it, but that's not you know,
Speaker 1: that's not guaranteed. Some people don't. Some people will go
Speaker 1: through without vomiting, without any kind of purging. I mean,
Speaker 1: in terms of needing diapers, I don't, you know, that's
Speaker 1: not something that's not something that I've experienced. Most people
Speaker 1: can get up and walk to the toilet if they
Speaker 1: need to go to the toilet, with a bit of assistance, obviously,
Speaker 1: with a bit of assistance, because your balance is definitely affected.
Speaker 1: Balance and movement is dramatically affected. So you might think
Speaker 1: that you put your leg in one place, but actually
Speaker 1: you're putting it in a different place. Your your whole
Speaker 1: sense of where you're placing things changes dramatically. And then
Speaker 1: I've heard it also described as like acid times a million.
Speaker 1: I mean, is that bullshit? Or it really depends which
Speaker 1: lens you're looking at it through. Well, that's what I
Speaker 1: was trying to say earlier. You know, I would say
Speaker 1: that's that's that's not anything that I've seen or experienced personally.
Speaker 1: You know, acid, your visuals can be completely overwhelming to
Speaker 1: the extent that you you know, especially high dose of
Speaker 1: acid that you can't see anything in the room and
Speaker 1: everything's melting. You would never get that kind of experience
Speaker 1: on I Begain, you know, your typical eyebergain experience, although
Speaker 1: this does probably only happen for half of people, but
Speaker 1: you know, the experience we talk about is one of
Speaker 1: a sort of vivid memory recall for the first six
Speaker 1: to eight hours, a kind of life flashback, as if
Speaker 1: you're watching your life, you know, on a movie screen
Speaker 1: or a sort of movie reel, but you're watching it
Speaker 1: from an objective point of view. You're not emotionally involved
Speaker 1: or triggered by that experience. There is some sort of detachment,
Speaker 1: whereas if you were experiencing those kind of visions on
Speaker 1: LST or any other kind of classic psychedelic you would
Speaker 1: be very emotionally involved in that living of those visuals.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the most common traits of the
Speaker 1: hy doc Ibergin experience them sort of memory recall in
Speaker 1: a kind of detect sort of way. Yeah, So the
Speaker 1: high do cybergain experience tends to happen in sort of
Speaker 1: three phases, So you'll have your first kind of you know,
Speaker 1: six to ten hours, let's say, where it's that kind
Speaker 1: of thing it's internal visions, waking dream They might be
Speaker 1: thoughts or stories that are that are you know, depending
Speaker 1: on how visually oriented you are. They may be visual,
Speaker 1: they may not, They may just be thoughts. But it
Speaker 1: can be kind of life flashback memory, recall, reliving events,
Speaker 1: understanding the pattern of events, understanding why something happened the
Speaker 1: way it did, and having some sense of um kind
Speaker 1: of objectivity around it which helps, which can help you
Speaker 1: to see things in a different way. That period can
Speaker 1: also be accompanied by very vivid hallucinations, but that is
Speaker 1: in the minority of people. So for myself personally, I
Speaker 1: did have three D hallucinations more real than anything I've
Speaker 1: had with any other psychedelic, but I am I am
Speaker 1: in a real minority, like I don't know many other
Speaker 1: people that have had that experience, but but it can happen.
Speaker 1: You can have very vivid hallucinations, and then the next
Speaker 1: phase is a is a period of deep introspection, and
Speaker 1: that's the phase that I think gives I begin a
Speaker 1: unique character, really sort of sets it apart from all
Speaker 1: the other psychedelics that we're currently working with and researching.
Speaker 1: And that after you've had this visual sort of peak experience,
Speaker 1: you then have this long contemplative, introspective, reflective period where
Speaker 1: you're definitely still under the effect. You know what, for me,
Speaker 1: this period is the bit where you could engage in
Speaker 1: more psycholitic therapy. I think we might get to that
Speaker 1: point at some you know, in some stage where that
Speaker 1: would be where interesting therapeutic discussions could take place. And
Speaker 1: then you get another the third phase, which is kind
Speaker 1: of the residual, where you're still you still might be
Speaker 1: stimulated because obviously it's a stimulant and it's very hard
Speaker 1: to sleep on ib again, so you might feel kind
Speaker 1: of wired. And for people experiencing addiction or substance used
Speaker 1: to sort of they that third phase tends to be
Speaker 1: kind of jangly. They don't feel that great because it's
Speaker 1: difficult to relax. But you know, that bat phase can
Speaker 1: also be quite useful for introspection. Just to be a
Speaker 1: but they're all a bit of a skeptic here, you know.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you hear this debate, like when people take I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's ayahuasca or some other psychedelic plants
Speaker 1: substance in you know, from South America. The frequency of
Speaker 1: seeing the jaguar, for example, and the question becomes, this
Speaker 1: just happens spontaneously even among people have never heard of
Speaker 1: the association of the psychedelic with the jaguar, or is
Speaker 1: it somehow kind of implanted in the culture. And with
Speaker 1: respect to this memory recall, I mean, people are obviously
Speaker 1: told beforehand that this is what they might expect. Does
Speaker 1: that precondition them, you think, to have this type of
Speaker 1: detached kind of memory recall experience or is it something
Speaker 1: just you know, even if people are not prepped to
Speaker 1: know that that it's going to be happening anyway, It's
Speaker 1: a very interesting question, and I think it's difficult to
Speaker 1: determine because no one's really looked at that, although actually
Speaker 1: I did here recently that there has been a study
Speaker 1: with other psychedelics looking at that how how the prompts
Speaker 1: before the experience affect the experience, and that they clearly do.
Speaker 1: I mean, you would imagine that if you're told X
Speaker 1: and why is going to happen, that it's more likely
Speaker 1: that X and why happens, right, And like I said earlier,
Speaker 1: you know, this vivid memory recal doesn't happen with everybody.
Speaker 1: But I think there's also distinction to be made between
Speaker 1: people using this for addiction, you know, to interrupt their addiction,
Speaker 1: or people using this for self development, spiritual purposes, curiosity,
Speaker 1: because the experience differs quite you know, it's quite a
Speaker 1: pronounced difference between those groups of people. And often, especially
Speaker 1: if you're you know, you're an opioid user, the psychedelic
Speaker 1: effects are somewhat blunted, you know, so the visual component
Speaker 1: and that memory recal might be blunted. Mhm. And in
Speaker 1: terms of I mean just speaking, I don't know if
Speaker 1: this has really been measured in studies as yet, but
Speaker 1: you're a subjective experience. As a treatment provider. Does a
Speaker 1: strong memory recall Does that associate with better outcomes for
Speaker 1: people in terms of dealing with their addiction issues? Or
Speaker 1: can people have just as good outcomes with just as
Speaker 1: great frequency if they don't go through the memory recall element. Yes,
Speaker 1: so in my experience, I would say that it does.
Speaker 1: You know that that what I was kind of describing
Speaker 1: as the archetypal trip, the memory recall, the introspection. You know,
Speaker 1: those three phases um tended to the stronger, the sort
Speaker 1: of visionary experience tended to have better long term effects.
Speaker 1: But you know that's just in my observation of maybe
Speaker 1: sixty seventy people that I facilitated sessions for and I'm
Speaker 1: not aware of it. You know, no one's actually looked
Speaker 1: at that properly because there's obviously a lack of clinical studies,
Speaker 1: right right, And so I'm just I mean, I imagine
Speaker 1: among our listeners just going to be some who are
Speaker 1: curious about whether or not they should take it, either
Speaker 1: for spiritual insight or for a dealing with addiction. I
Speaker 1: imagine there's even more who have a friend or real
Speaker 1: NATIV who's struggling with addiction and they want to know
Speaker 1: if this might be helpful, And a lot of others
Speaker 1: are just curious about, you know, how this is similar
Speaker 1: different to the other ones. So just to kind of
Speaker 1: take us through some of the process and maybe in
Speaker 1: terms of the treatments that you've provided, Um, what's the product?
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, how do people you know,
Speaker 1: you know come into contact with you? And then what
Speaker 1: sorts of clearance do you have to do so that
Speaker 1: some people are probably told that they're not eligible to
Speaker 1: do this, and then how is it consumed the setting?
Speaker 1: Just walk us through all that, Okay, so let's just
Speaker 1: be clear. So I'm not providing ibergaine treatments in an
Speaker 1: informal way anymore. I'm just working on a clinical trial.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's there's various routes you can take
Speaker 1: to experiencing iyebergaine, So there would obviously be the clinical
Speaker 1: trial angle, but there's only a couple of countries where
Speaker 1: that's happening, so that's fairly limited at the moment. You know,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely usual to find an eyebgain provider where there
Speaker 1: is some sort of medical supervision or assistance because i
Speaker 1: begain does have cardiac implications and there are risks associated,
Speaker 1: so it's really important that you're with a provider who
Speaker 1: understands those risks and who can manage them should they
Speaker 1: occur um because there's you know, there's there's over a
Speaker 1: hundred clinics around the world, and some of them are
Speaker 1: medically supervised and some are not, and then there's probably
Speaker 1: tens more of just individuals offering treatments in an informal way.
Speaker 1: So it's really important to be clear about the cardiac
Speaker 1: risks and so that you go in informed about them
Speaker 1: and looking for an appropriate practitioner. But let's say your
Speaker 1: practitioner is informed about this has medical supervision is going
Speaker 1: to monitor your vital science, is going to insist that
Speaker 1: you have an ECG prior to the experience. Um, I
Speaker 1: mean preferably that you're monitored with an ECG throughout the experience.
Speaker 1: But that's quite rare these days, but I would definitely
Speaker 1: recommend looking for that. So you want to check your heart,
Speaker 1: and you want to check your liver function really, and
Speaker 1: you want to check your electrolyte balance. So they're the
Speaker 1: kind of main safety sort of checks. And what's the
Speaker 1: importance of the liver function one? Well, just you know,
Speaker 1: to see how your liver is functioning, because obviously your
Speaker 1: liver function will determine how you metabolize the drug, and
Speaker 1: poor metabolizes, you know, then there's an extra risk of
Speaker 1: spike levels of of I beginning or I begin having
Speaker 1: a greater effect on your heart. Really, so you want
Speaker 1: to be carefully mentioned nor I begin So maybe we
Speaker 1: should just interject your Is that what I begain becomes
Speaker 1: in the body once it's consumed or is it? Ye? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I begain it's converted to nor I begain. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's metabolite, but it lasts much longer in the
Speaker 1: body and levels of both of them have different implications
Speaker 1: on cardiac risks UM, so you need to get checked out.
Speaker 1: I mean, ideally you wouldn't have a history of cardiac
Speaker 1: problems in your family. UM, you would you know, not
Speaker 1: have a history of any psychosis. You wouldn't want to
Speaker 1: be well. Again, different providers are different with this, but
Speaker 1: there's certain medications that you'd want to avoid taking. So
Speaker 1: if you were on them, you'd need to taper off
Speaker 1: them and have some assistance tapering off them because some
Speaker 1: drugs will interact negatively with ibergaine. But when you say
Speaker 1: about interactions, is it like with SR eyes where I
Speaker 1: think with Ayahuaska you're not supposed to be You're not
Speaker 1: supposed to be using that. What can you say? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: S s R E s Ideally, I mean like if
Speaker 1: I was working, I would want people to come off
Speaker 1: their S S R eyes. The risk of I begin with,
Speaker 1: for your heart is that it can cause something called
Speaker 1: QT prolongation, which is basically elongating the wave between your
Speaker 1: queue and your tea waves on your e c G.
Speaker 1: And that's really about heart contracting and relax xing. So
Speaker 1: it can lead to kind of an abnormal heart rhythm,
Speaker 1: which can lead to a fatality. So if you're on
Speaker 1: any other drug that is also prolonging your QT intervals,
Speaker 1: then you would want to you would want to come
Speaker 1: off them because that plus the iber gains prolongation could
Speaker 1: cause a significant risk. You just want to eliminate that risk.
Speaker 1: So there's a variety of drugs, antihistamines, antipsychotics, antidepressants. Some
Speaker 1: providers will work with with people on those drugs, but
Speaker 1: taking all the right precautions like monitoring on any CG
Speaker 1: the whole way through UM, you know, having assistance at
Speaker 1: hand should there be any problems. But that's why you
Speaker 1: need the medical supervision really. And then so aside the
Speaker 1: kind of medical exclusion, you know, various reasons for medic
Speaker 1: for exclusion. You would also want to do some significant
Speaker 1: preparation and just to get yourself well informed about iber
Speaker 1: gain and the risks you would be taking and the
Speaker 1: potential experience you would be having. So any provider would
Speaker 1: would do some psych education, which is just giving you
Speaker 1: all that information beforehand, and then you know, ideally and
Speaker 1: maybe have two or three prep sessions. You'd get to
Speaker 1: know your provider. You'd want to you'd want to establish
Speaker 1: really good rapport. You'd need to feel safe with that
Speaker 1: person because they're obviously going to be holding space for
Speaker 1: you during a long and potentially intense experience, and then
Speaker 1: ensure that they will also offer you some integration after
Speaker 1: the experience, because you know, this is something that we're
Speaker 1: all talking about in psychedelic therapy. The need for integration
Speaker 1: um not only to be able to integrate a potentially
Speaker 1: difficult experience, but also to harvest the lessons and insights
Speaker 1: that you get from from you know, less challenging experience,
Speaker 1: just to help you kind of land again and move
Speaker 1: forward with the insights that you've got. We haven't really
Speaker 1: honed a kind of standard method, and everyone has their
Speaker 1: own way of doing this, but I think it's really important.
Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons that I sort of
Speaker 1: stepped away from I began treatment years ago was the
Speaker 1: fact that people would come and have this very profound experience,
Speaker 1: but if there hadn't been enough preparation or integration, which
Speaker 1: often is a cost issue people just simply can't afford it.
Speaker 1: Then you know that I bega intense to unearth various
Speaker 1: issues in your life that you've been struggling with and
Speaker 1: if you go back into your same environment, then you're
Speaker 1: walking back in and you know you're going to experience
Speaker 1: various various triggers again. And if there isn't the appropriate integration,
Speaker 1: you're very likely to just sort of fall back into
Speaker 1: old patterns, and that may be addiction. If you've come
Speaker 1: for addiction interruption. We'll be talking more after we hear
Speaker 1: this add It's not just about the immediate, you know,
Speaker 1: coming down from the day after. What we're really talking
Speaker 1: about for many people sustained period of time, like going
Speaker 1: to see a psychotherapist or saying like that you're on
Speaker 1: a weekly basis or a monthly basis, or you know,
Speaker 1: checking in leading up to it. Then in terms of uh,
Speaker 1: I mean people are obviously using ib gain for a
Speaker 1: variety of addictions, as the opioid one, which I think
Speaker 1: is the one that's most known for, but also alcohol
Speaker 1: or stimulants, cocaine, maybe the nicotine. What's the recommendation in
Speaker 1: terms of abstaining from any of those drugs before the
Speaker 1: i BE GAIN treatment for how long, how necessary it is,
Speaker 1: how much does it vary whether it's a stimulant or
Speaker 1: an opioid for example. I mean, so again this varies
Speaker 1: from treatment provider to treatment provider, and some people are
Speaker 1: much bolder and more allowing of continuing your drug of choice.
Speaker 1: And it also depends on whether you're going for a
Speaker 1: flood dose or a slow dose protocol. But let's kind
Speaker 1: of maybe the easiest way of explaining it would be
Speaker 1: to take, you know, to take some examples, so you know,
Speaker 1: you would basically look at the half life of your
Speaker 1: drug of choice and you would want to give at
Speaker 1: least that time period before you take the IEB again.
Speaker 1: Ideally you'd want to leave twenty four hours really from
Speaker 1: your last dose to your eye again. Now, in terms
Speaker 1: of alcohol, actually I never worked with anyone with an
Speaker 1: alcohol disorder, and I know that withdrawal from alcohol is
Speaker 1: a lot more dangerous and it presents with a lot
Speaker 1: more issues. And I because I've not done a protocol
Speaker 1: with alcohol, I couldn't I couldn't really speak to that.
Speaker 1: So let's just eliminate alcohol from this discussion and just
Speaker 1: talk about um opioids or stimulants. And with the opioids,
Speaker 1: is I mean that people are already if it's methanine
Speaker 1: or or heroin, that they're actually in some state of withdrawal.
Speaker 1: Often times by the time they take Yeah, so that's
Speaker 1: what happens. When they come to take the eye again,
Speaker 1: they will the withdrawal symptoms will probably just be presenting.
Speaker 1: So the protocol that I used um withdrawal would just
Speaker 1: be presenting. I would then administer a testos which is
Speaker 1: like one to two milligrams of iber gain, and then
Speaker 1: that would that would sort of take the edge of
Speaker 1: the withdrawal and it would show us, you know, how
Speaker 1: the person responded to the iber gain, and then we
Speaker 1: would then do the flood dose after that, so effectively
Speaker 1: you don't really enter the withdrawal period. You're just sort
Speaker 1: of skirting on the edge of it. M hm hm. Now,
Speaker 1: I guess the thing that's really maybe most astounding about
Speaker 1: I be Gain, apart from this kind of detached sort
Speaker 1: of memory recall, is the fact that it seems to
Speaker 1: alleviate or even disappear the withdrawal symptoms that once so
Speaker 1: oftentimes associates with opioid withdrawal. And that's that does not
Speaker 1: seem to be true of any of the other psychedelics
Speaker 1: that are being used in addiction treatment. And so do
Speaker 1: we have any understanding as yet about what I mean,
Speaker 1: what that's about, What do we know about that, you know,
Speaker 1: interruption of the withdrawal. Well, that's kind of the most
Speaker 1: astounding thing about iber gain really, and that is how
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how we discovered ibor gaine's anti addiction
Speaker 1: sort of potential was because Howard lots of in the
Speaker 1: sixties um decided to take iber gain in an experimental
Speaker 1: way with various friends as a psychedelic experience, and he
Speaker 1: happened to be a heroin user, and he realized after
Speaker 1: you know, he came down from his iber gain trip
Speaker 1: that he hadn't experienced withdrawal and he no longer had
Speaker 1: any withdrawal symptoms. And there were seven heroin users among
Speaker 1: his twenty friends who were experimenting with it, and they
Speaker 1: all experienced the same thing. So there definitely is something
Speaker 1: to ib again whereby it dramatically reduces withdrawal symptoms, if
Speaker 1: not eliminates them. And in terms of you know, how
Speaker 1: that happens, why that happens, we're still not entirely clear.
Speaker 1: The pharmacology of ibergaine is still you know, it's a
Speaker 1: bit blurry. We've got some idea years of of how
Speaker 1: it works and the various neuro transmitter sites that it targets.
Speaker 1: But I think as for actually explaining how it stops withdrawal,
Speaker 1: I think we're still somewhat in the dark mm hmm.
Speaker 1: But it's pretty well documented now right across thousands of
Speaker 1: people having this almost miraculous absence of I mean, for
Speaker 1: people have been addicted to opioids for many years. People
Speaker 1: aren't herowing people wanting to you know, who have been
Speaker 1: on methodine for a long time and wanted getting off it.
Speaker 1: It's um, I mean, it's it's basically it happens for
Speaker 1: everybody or almost everybody this this. Uh yeah, I would say,
Speaker 1: I would say, I mean, in my own experience, probably
Speaker 1: for kind of eighty of people there. You know, there
Speaker 1: are a small number especially methodone users. Actually, you know,
Speaker 1: long term methodone uses may experience still some withdrawal symptoms,
Speaker 1: but they're dramatically reduced. Yeah. Well, actually, maybe this is
Speaker 1: a good place to bring up the study that you're
Speaker 1: engaged in with icere is right now, right, which is
Speaker 1: about you know, kind of innovative approach to try and
Speaker 1: to help people who want to get off method I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously for many people or our method and it can
Speaker 1: be a lifelong medication. It can be very successful, but
Speaker 1: there are many people, for one reason or another, who
Speaker 1: do want to get off it. What can you say
Speaker 1: about that study that you're currently engaged in. Okay, so
Speaker 1: I'm not actually currently engaged with the i as methodone study.
Speaker 1: I have done some consultancy with I See is, but
Speaker 1: I'm actually working with the Demo rex I Begin study,
Speaker 1: which will be working with opioid us as well. We're
Speaker 1: still in the healthy volunteer phase, but I can I
Speaker 1: can definitely discussed the ICE study a bit. Although they
Speaker 1: haven't published their results yet, they've got twenty methodone users
Speaker 1: and they are using a slow dose protocol, which is
Speaker 1: just worth talking about now because there's I think I've
Speaker 1: mainly been talking about this sort of flood saturation dose,
Speaker 1: which is what I worked with, you know, almost twenty
Speaker 1: years ago, but now people are are moving away from
Speaker 1: that because of the cardiac implications and because of the
Speaker 1: deaths that have occurred. There is a move, I would say,
Speaker 1: towards this slower dose protocol, which is using I begain
Speaker 1: in a way to kind of taper down your opioid use.
Speaker 1: So the I See his study I think gives six doses.
Speaker 1: It split the group into two groups, and each group
Speaker 1: receives a dose of iber gain one that one group
Speaker 1: gets six doses of a hundred milligrams and the other
Speaker 1: gets an ascending dose, so hundred milligrams then two hundred,
Speaker 1: three hundred, six eight hundred. I can't remember how it goes,
Speaker 1: but they have six doses of an escalating dose, and
Speaker 1: with each of those doses, they reduce their methodone use
Speaker 1: by half, so they're effectively tapering down their methodone and
Speaker 1: also being administered I began at the same time, which
Speaker 1: you know, supposedly will eliminate the withdrawal symptoms and sort
Speaker 1: of flood the system over a number of days with
Speaker 1: iber gain instead of that immediate flood dose, which potentially
Speaker 1: has more risks. Mhm. And these are generally people have
Speaker 1: been fairly stabilized our method on when yeah, yeah, they've
Speaker 1: been on a method and program and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I can say they haven't had yeah, they
Speaker 1: haven't had any adverse events yet, no hospitalized, but no
Speaker 1: serious adverse events in the hospitalization yet. So and I
Speaker 1: hear they have very promising results, but it's not published yet. Okay,
Speaker 1: and what about the study that you're engaged in the UK.
Speaker 1: So this is a single dose study. Um it's a
Speaker 1: Phase one and Phase two A studies, So it's currently
Speaker 1: unhealthy volunteers and there's four cohorts. So each group will
Speaker 1: receive first group three milligrams, next group the three milligrams peculogram,
Speaker 1: next group six milligrams pekulogram, next group nine milligrams pekulogram,
Speaker 1: and if all of them have been safe and tolerated,
Speaker 1: then it'll move up to twelve milligrams pekulogram, which is
Speaker 1: ki of the target dose of a number of clinics
Speaker 1: around the world. So we're looking at the tolerable tolerability
Speaker 1: really and the safety. And there's a lot of um
Speaker 1: ACG monitoring and looking at the QT intervals throughout the
Speaker 1: experience to see you see pro kilogram you mean of
Speaker 1: their own body weight. So in other words, the assumption
Speaker 1: is that there's reason to believe that the dose should
Speaker 1: be a reflection of somebody's body weight. Yes, exactly, Why
Speaker 1: is that? Well, because I mean, I guess with lots
Speaker 1: of mental health drugs, psychiatric drugs, they do that they
Speaker 1: dose according to body weight because each person will will
Speaker 1: respond in a different way according to a body weight.
Speaker 1: I know with the other classic psychedelics they don't do
Speaker 1: that so much, but I think um with lots of
Speaker 1: psychiatric drugs they do m So Phase two will then
Speaker 1: move on to we'll look at the best the sort
Speaker 1: of maximum tolerated dose and the sort of ideal target dose,
Speaker 1: and then move on to phase two offering that dose
Speaker 1: to opioid dependent individuals and then assess again safety, toleer ability,
Speaker 1: and efficacy. So this this first co this first study.
Speaker 1: Phase one is thirty participants and then hopefully they'll be
Speaker 1: eighty participants among opioid users. So this is really the
Speaker 1: first well, I mean there's obviously the i c IS
Speaker 1: study going on, but this is, yeah, this is one
Speaker 1: of the first Phase one and phase two going together,
Speaker 1: and especially doing all the card monitoring, which is really
Speaker 1: crucial I think to getting ibergain licensed. So now let's
Speaker 1: go to this world of the clinics. I think you
Speaker 1: mentioned the beginning that there's maybe over a hundred that
Speaker 1: we know about around the world. I mean they seem
Speaker 1: to show up a lot, I think in Mexico and
Speaker 1: it's a Costa Rica and sometimes the Caribbean. Um, but
Speaker 1: I guess they've also been in the UK and the Netherlands, Canada, etcetera. Um,
Speaker 1: what do we know about this network? I mean, are
Speaker 1: there are there chains? Off? I begin, clinics where one
Speaker 1: person or owner owns a whole bunch of them in
Speaker 1: different places. Uh. Does anybody have a kind of list?
Speaker 1: Is there a directory of these clinics anywhere? Uh? Does?
Speaker 1: Some of them have fantastic reputations, have been around for
Speaker 1: many years? What can you tell us? Yeah, I've never
Speaker 1: heard about a directory, but that's not a bad idea. Um.
Speaker 1: And I've not heard of chains either, But it's possible
Speaker 1: that there maybe you know, a clinic and I think
Speaker 1: I might have heard that there's you know, some business
Speaker 1: that has a couple of clinics in Mexico. But there's Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not chains yet. I mean Universal Eye again, I
Speaker 1: think is attempting to do that. So they're working in
Speaker 1: Canada and they will be conducting clinical trials in Canada.
Speaker 1: But that is their idea is to create sort of
Speaker 1: medicalized clinical model and have clinics around the world. So
Speaker 1: at the moment, it's more individual clinics with a sort
Speaker 1: of cl Susta in Mexico, Costa Rica. Like you said,
Speaker 1: more informal treatment providers around Europe, not so much clinics.
Speaker 1: There's a clinic in Portugal Tabularrassa UM, and then there's
Speaker 1: obviously individual providers as well in Mexico and Canada. There's
Speaker 1: also clinics in Canada and South Africa and Brazil. So
Speaker 1: in Brazil and Canada and South Africa and New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Actually I begains been put on the kind of prescription
Speaker 1: drug list, which means doctors can prescribe it, so it
Speaker 1: can Yeah, it can be prescribed in a clinic, so
Speaker 1: there are obviously that's an easier legal situation for clinics
Speaker 1: to develop in. And then in Mexico there are a
Speaker 1: number of clinics and they get licensed as rehab clinics.
Speaker 1: Really not licensed for I begain news because I begins
Speaker 1: not a licensed medicine in Mexico. But um, it's not regulated.
Speaker 1: So there are places where like government, some kind of
Speaker 1: regulatory officials are actually checking up on these things or
Speaker 1: where they need to look at the whole protocol and
Speaker 1: give their approval. Yeah, and they're definitely the authorities, local
Speaker 1: authorities are aware of what the clinics are doing in
Speaker 1: these places. And these are all either places whether they're
Speaker 1: on the prescription drug list or where it's unregulated. It's
Speaker 1: not scheduled drugs. Obviously, in the US I began as
Speaker 1: a Schedule one drug. No one would get away of
Speaker 1: doing anything like that there. In the UK we have
Speaker 1: the Psychoactive Substance Act, which means that it's legal. It
Speaker 1: would be legal to consume um ibergain or a boger,
Speaker 1: but not legal to administer. So clinics are definitely not
Speaker 1: legal in the UK. And there's no clinics up and
Speaker 1: running here. Um. And then you know Holland, there's a
Speaker 1: gray area, so shops openly selling iboga and iboga extracts
Speaker 1: and providers working. Yeah, So there's and and then there's
Speaker 1: other countries in Europe where it's banned like in the
Speaker 1: United States, Um, Italy, France, New Zealand. I saw pop up.
Speaker 1: Is it legal in New zeal End? Did anything happening there? Well,
Speaker 1: so that's the same New Zealand. I think I just included,
Speaker 1: but maybe I didn't. New Zealand is the same as
Speaker 1: prescription drugs, so you can, yeah, you can legally prescribe.
Speaker 1: I began in New Zealand, and there are some clinics there.
Speaker 1: There are a couple of clinics there that I know of.
Speaker 1: There maybe more. And in terms of the International Drug
Speaker 1: Control system, which has banned some of the psychedelics, whereas
Speaker 1: I begin in that, so it's not it's not a
Speaker 1: scheduled drug in the UN conventions, so that eases things up,
Speaker 1: I see, well, but in in individual countries it is,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't necessarily use it up. Yeah, right right,
Speaker 1: depends it depends where you are. I see, and and um.
Speaker 1: And then the Caribbean I saw, in fact, I know
Speaker 1: the son of a friend of mine had a successful
Speaker 1: I began treatment in the Caribbean. Is it just is
Speaker 1: it a bunch of different islands or is the same
Speaker 1: kits or so? Debramash had a clinic and KITS so
Speaker 1: that that was running for a number of years, and
Speaker 1: she published a paper on on the detoxification opioid detoxif
Speaker 1: occasional two seventy seven participants I think, and had had
Speaker 1: remarkable results. So she's that that's the kind of longest
Speaker 1: standing I began clinic license in a way explain to
Speaker 1: our to our listeners who are the significance of doctor
Speaker 1: Debora Mash in all this. So Debra match is there
Speaker 1: is a neuroscientist who has been involved in, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to develop ibergain as a treatment for addiction for years,
Speaker 1: six years, and she's currently running the study that I'm
Speaker 1: working on in London. She managed to get neider back
Speaker 1: in the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the States
Speaker 1: get Neider backing for phase one studies in ninety four
Speaker 1: I think in in the United States and they administered
Speaker 1: I think up to two milligrams pekilogram and the study
Speaker 1: round for a short while and then terminated. And she
Speaker 1: then set up her clinic in St. Kitts and carried
Speaker 1: on treating people and doing lots of research on ibergaine
Speaker 1: and has really never you know, she's really kind of
Speaker 1: never given up bringing this to market and ensuring access
Speaker 1: for addicts to this treatment. I met Deborah Mash I
Speaker 1: think twenty five years ago when I was lobbying and
Speaker 1: trying to raise awareness of iber gaine in the UK,
Speaker 1: and we invited her over and took her to lecture
Speaker 1: at various places, trying to sort of open the ears
Speaker 1: and eyes of various addiction agencies to the potential of
Speaker 1: iber gaine and various research operations. But you know, we
Speaker 1: didn't get anywhere. And I think it's been a really long,
Speaker 1: hard fight. Let's take a break here and go to
Speaker 1: an add Most of my encounter with I Begain was
Speaker 1: really beginning in the early nineties from the activist side.
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned earlier Howard lots Off, you know,
Speaker 1: and Howard's you know experiences a nineteen year old realizing
Speaker 1: that I Begain had eliminated the withdrawal symptoms for him
Speaker 1: and other friends associated with the heroin addiction. And in fact,
Speaker 1: I think in recognition of his work, my organization Drug
Speaker 1: Policy Alliance awarded him a big award Charlie before he
Speaker 1: died some years ago. But then it was also the
Speaker 1: the yippie activist Dana Beale. It was the Israeli fellow
Speaker 1: of BoA's Lochtell, who's you know, then starts the Israeli
Speaker 1: Greenleaf Party to try to legalize marijuana, but he was
Speaker 1: administering lots of treatments. And Bob Cisco, another activist who
Speaker 1: in fact just died recently. I just was at his
Speaker 1: memorial service in New York a few months ago. But
Speaker 1: this set of activists, you know, what was their role
Speaker 1: in all and how much were they joined by others
Speaker 1: around the world. Well, so we really wouldn't know about
Speaker 1: the potential therapeutic potential of iber Game for addiction if
Speaker 1: it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for Howard and
Speaker 1: normal really you know, trying to spread the word and
Speaker 1: raise awareness because of their own experience, but then because
Speaker 1: of the experience of others that they administered I be
Speaker 1: gain too, or that they you know, showed other addicts
Speaker 1: how to help other addicts, and this kind of addict
Speaker 1: self help movement grew, and Bob Sisko obviously started up
Speaker 1: Eye Cash, the International Coalition Addict Self Help I think
Speaker 1: that's right, which was really based in the Netherlands, So
Speaker 1: there was a kind of connection between New York and
Speaker 1: the Netherlands, Rotterdam specifically. I think this laye network of
Speaker 1: people addicts helping addicts really and you know subculture of
Speaker 1: iber gain treatment providers, people who had gone through it
Speaker 1: themselves and helping other people and so forth. And you know,
Speaker 1: they organized conferences, they lobbied government bodies, um Howard lots
Speaker 1: of obviously took out a series of patents in the
Speaker 1: mid eighties, and you know, managed to have conversations with Neida.
Speaker 1: I think it was you know, his meeting with Debora
Speaker 1: that that helped kick stock Debra's interest and Deborah's movement
Speaker 1: with Ibergine. So really, this, this whole kind of movement
Speaker 1: is all thanks to them, and they really deserve to
Speaker 1: be massively honored. You know, this area of the for
Speaker 1: profit companies which are all you know, there's now obviously many,
Speaker 1: many of them, and they're funding university research centers. And
Speaker 1: I've read that a TIE, which may be the most
Speaker 1: well financed of all of the investors, is looking at
Speaker 1: this and that Mine Mead has also been taking a
Speaker 1: look all I think they're looking at a synthetic derivative
Speaker 1: of I beginning called AT and m C. I know
Speaker 1: of some others. But is that where the funding and
Speaker 1: the push is coming from now, and what's your thoughts
Speaker 1: about all that? Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely where the push
Speaker 1: is coming from obviously. Yeah, you've got Demorex and a
Speaker 1: TIE they've collaborating on the study in the UK, and
Speaker 1: you've got I'm not quite sure who's funding the studies
Speaker 1: in Brazil. Actually but yeah, it's it's private money coming
Speaker 1: you know, it's corporate money coming in and really mobilizing
Speaker 1: these studies and providing the kind of money that's needed
Speaker 1: to take these compounds further. I think and obviously I
Speaker 1: begain can I mean, I mean, Howard lots of years ago,
Speaker 1: decades ago, had these patents about the use of I
Speaker 1: began for treatment. Those have now expired, So I imagine
Speaker 1: and I began itself cannot be patented I measure at
Speaker 1: this time. So at this point, is it about you know,
Speaker 1: trying to get patents on the derivatives or on we
Speaker 1: talked about before, nor I begain, you know, the basic
Speaker 1: substances it comes when it was human body. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: an or I begain, there's derivatives, there's there's treatment protocols
Speaker 1: that will probably be technology associated with the treatment that
Speaker 1: will be patented. Um. Hey, I'm also full disclosure here.
Speaker 1: Um there's another new startup, UM a company called I
Speaker 1: Bogus scene. I had Boas Wachtel was in New York
Speaker 1: visiting me and he said he's and I'm starting this company. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to be in the advisory boarder.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, I guess, so it sounds interesting.
Speaker 1: So that thing is just look at you know, launching
Speaker 1: now I I bogus scene. But was they're going to
Speaker 1: be looking at, I think is less focused on addiction
Speaker 1: treatment and looking at treatment of other things. You know,
Speaker 1: their their materials say that they want to look at
Speaker 1: the using I begaine for dealing with things like gastro
Speaker 1: intestinal stuff and autoimmune disease and sleep disorders and maybe cancer,
Speaker 1: neurogenitive diseases. And I've heard it talked about visavi Parkinson's
Speaker 1: as well. So what do you know about the value
Speaker 1: or potential value of I began for treating not just addiction,
Speaker 1: but there are types of mental conditions or even these
Speaker 1: physical ones. Yes, I did talk to Boas actually and
Speaker 1: I did. I am aware of iboga seen and it's
Speaker 1: you know, obviously my background's ethnobotany. So it's very interesting
Speaker 1: because this is really ethno medicine that they're taking forward,
Speaker 1: looking at the traditional use of a boga in its
Speaker 1: traditional context in Gobon and medicinal uses they have for
Speaker 1: it there, which are this gastro intestinal um issues and
Speaker 1: the other ones you mentioned. So I think among treatment providers,
Speaker 1: you know, there's been all sorts of anecdotal reports about
Speaker 1: the immune boosting effects, you know, even dare I say it,
Speaker 1: You know, people are speculating about its potential in low
Speaker 1: doses again, in sort of micro doses for COVID and
Speaker 1: respiratory conditions. So I think, I think this is kind
Speaker 1: of a nascent field, and I'm sure people will start
Speaker 1: looking at different applications of it, And personally, I've been
Speaker 1: very interested in its potential application for Parkinson's. In fact,
Speaker 1: that's kind of what got me back into ibergain after
Speaker 1: after a long break from it, because I kind of had,
Speaker 1: you know, put down the addiction, not thinking it wasn't
Speaker 1: really moving and it wasn't going to get anywhere, and
Speaker 1: also my life kind of changed and addiction didn't seem
Speaker 1: so you know, sort of present and relevant to me,
Speaker 1: and things were kind of stalled in terms of research.
Speaker 1: And then I got invited to one of these conferences
Speaker 1: by Dana in two thousand and seventeen, and I watched
Speaker 1: a man give a presentation on having taken micro doses
Speaker 1: of very low doses of iber game for his Parkinson's
Speaker 1: and having had remarkable results really in attenuation of symptoms.
Speaker 1: And you know, at that time my mother got diagnosed
Speaker 1: with Alzheimer's and my stepfather a year later. So I've
Speaker 1: been very sort of focused on neurodegenerative conditions and the
Speaker 1: potential applications and psychedelics in this area, and I'm watching
Speaker 1: very keenly. In fact, when I was working out there
Speaker 1: Beckley Foundation, I was really trying to encourage interest in that. Now,
Speaker 1: how do you mentioned earlier that you know your life
Speaker 1: had changed visa the diction and that was in part
Speaker 1: why you're looking in some of these other uses for you?
Speaker 1: Was the initial entry into I Begaine as somebody like
Speaker 1: Howard Lotsof who used it and found it transformative? Or
Speaker 1: did it come about our other ways? Well? So I
Speaker 1: I first heard about ibergain I guess in this sort
Speaker 1: of mid nineties, but it wasn't until the late nineties
Speaker 1: that I got more directly involved. And that was actually
Speaker 1: sort of coincidentally. I just got asked to organize a
Speaker 1: series of conferences on I Begain. I had been involved
Speaker 1: myself with Aowaska. Was much more interested in Ayawaska as
Speaker 1: a psychedelic. I had spent several years of researching it
Speaker 1: as an anthropology student and participating in rituals and experimenting
Speaker 1: with it, and I had found that had really pulled
Speaker 1: me out of my UM. I did to kind of
Speaker 1: patterns and tendencies so I had had during my teenage
Speaker 1: years and kind of early adulthood, consumed a lot of drugs,
Speaker 1: been very involved in the drug scene. I'd gone into
Speaker 1: it with Aawaska and I've done my work so to
Speaker 1: beat with arahuaska to resolve a cocaine and I had
Speaker 1: a kind of cocaine and alcohol habit. But I had
Speaker 1: witnessed lots of my friends O D. I had lost
Speaker 1: several friends from addiction, so addiction was very sort of
Speaker 1: prevalent in my life. I'd also had lots of friends
Speaker 1: UM have psychotic episodes from various drugs. And so when
Speaker 1: I heard about IB again, even though I no longer
Speaker 1: you know, was in the kind of midst of any addiction,
Speaker 1: substance addiction, UM, I was obviously very interested in how
Speaker 1: it could help my friends and how it could help
Speaker 1: those around me. When I did take it personally, I
Speaker 1: was addicted to tobacco still and it did help me
Speaker 1: UM quit my tobacco addiction. But I have to preface
Speaker 1: this with you lasted for a year, so I had
Speaker 1: I had a good twelve months with no tobacco, and
Speaker 1: then I relapsed. Um, and then I carried on smoking
Speaker 1: for another I don't know how many years, but then
Speaker 1: managed to stop, you know, probably what they used to
Speaker 1: other psychedelics. When you think about, you know, compare and
Speaker 1: contrast how they're similar, how they're different. Between ayahuasca and
Speaker 1: I bow that I began. Um what stands out for
Speaker 1: you first in terms of talking about the experience itself. Um,
Speaker 1: So the experience itself, I think, you know, they're very distinct.
Speaker 1: Obviously I began as much much longer lasting, and like
Speaker 1: I said earlier, you know, characterized by this more sort
Speaker 1: of memory we called dreamlike visions, whereas ayahuaska, you know,
Speaker 1: especially it's sort of strong doses and kind of peak
Speaker 1: experience can be much more about ego dissolution and um,
Speaker 1: you know, liquefying consciousness, connection with everything around you, oneness
Speaker 1: are to change in your sense of appropriate reception, where
Speaker 1: your body ends and begins, where you end and begin. Um.
Speaker 1: So there's that, there's definitely that difference. You don't have
Speaker 1: that going on with the ibergaine. M hmm. Let's see
Speaker 1: an in terms of iowaska has also typically done in
Speaker 1: a kind of group setting, whereas i begaine is almost
Speaker 1: entirely done in a solo setting. Right, Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: massive difference. Yes, so iowaska is usually done, although some
Speaker 1: people do do one on one aowaska sessions, but it
Speaker 1: is usually done in a group setting in a more
Speaker 1: kind of ceremonial setting, although again it boga depending on
Speaker 1: whether you take ibergain or a boga, there is a
Speaker 1: very elaborate at boga ritual ceremony, group ceremony if you're
Speaker 1: following more the tradition of the buety that is again
Speaker 1: a community, communal experience, many people, a lot of music, dancing, contact,
Speaker 1: you know. Then then then it's so if you go
Speaker 1: to the traditional use of a boga, it's more similar
Speaker 1: I suppose to the iowaska apart from the fact that
Speaker 1: it is used as an initiative, you know, traditionally as
Speaker 1: an initiation ritual in high doses or in low doses,
Speaker 1: you know, more for the kind of ceremony, prayer, prayers,
Speaker 1: not all night vituals that they do as part of
Speaker 1: their religion. Yeah, I think I got we got into
Speaker 1: this a bit on the episode with Dmitry last year,
Speaker 1: because he actually did go to Gabon and was initiated
Speaker 1: into the wheety. And I think, you know, when we
Speaker 1: were talking earlier, Hetty about the uses for things other
Speaker 1: than addiction, right, I think a fair bit of the
Speaker 1: awareness of that comes from what was happening with the
Speaker 1: wheaty and their use of iboga. Is that right? Yes, definitely,
Speaker 1: so Boger has used you know, like I said, like
Speaker 1: in large doses for initiation, contact with the ancestors, spiritual guidance, healing,
Speaker 1: but in low doses it's used, yeah, for a variety
Speaker 1: of illnesses as an ethnic medicine, you know, as a
Speaker 1: medicinal herb, you know. I mean. One of the other
Speaker 1: issues that keeps emerging more and more now, right is
Speaker 1: what are the rights and responsibilities towards indigenous peoples, whether
Speaker 1: it's with ayahuasca coming from the Amazon regional Latin America,
Speaker 1: whether it's with peyote, and of course with eboga and
Speaker 1: the Boti. And there is this Nagoya Protocol, I guess,
Speaker 1: the sort of international treaty that many nations are signing
Speaker 1: on to UM. But what can you tell us about
Speaker 1: that vise the eboga and how it compares to what's
Speaker 1: going on with the the other substances. You know, with
Speaker 1: this whole issue of kind of indigenous intellectual property rights, UM,
Speaker 1: it's in a way sort of easier to pinpoint with
Speaker 1: the boga and Equatorial Africa. You know, there's a long
Speaker 1: tradition of use, we know the various groups that use it.
Speaker 1: So this idea of kind of benefits sharing should theoretically
Speaker 1: be more straightforward, although there's no sort of Um, there
Speaker 1: are no homogeneous indigenous groups, and there are various groups
Speaker 1: using in different ways, and so how you would coordinate
Speaker 1: that benefit sharing is going to be somewhat complicated. I'm sure. Um.
Speaker 1: There is a group already operating Blessings of the Forest,
Speaker 1: headed up by someone called you Non, and they are
Speaker 1: trying to ensure benefits sharing and the sustainability of a
Speaker 1: boger because obviously, you know it burger is a valuable
Speaker 1: natural product in Gabon, and there's a lot of poaching
Speaker 1: and wild harvesting of a boger and if there's growing
Speaker 1: demand around the world, this is you know, the issue
Speaker 1: of sustainability is only going to grow, and so the
Speaker 1: Blessings of the forest are very much um interested in
Speaker 1: setting up sustainable plantations and working with people to ensure
Speaker 1: sustainability and to ensure that um. You know, there's no
Speaker 1: illegal export of it Boger out the country, you can't.
Speaker 1: I mean, actually it Boger is a national cultural heritage
Speaker 1: in Gabon, so it easily eagle to export it. But
Speaker 1: there's you know, there's various ways around. That's very interesting,
Speaker 1: you know you mentioned earlier, just to switch again, micro docing.
Speaker 1: I mean, this has become such a phenomenon, So what
Speaker 1: is the story. I mean, there's obviously micro docing, there's
Speaker 1: many dozing, there's what you call the flood dozing or
Speaker 1: you know, macro dosing. Um is there the micro docing?
Speaker 1: What can you tell us about that? Are more and
Speaker 1: more people doing it or trying it that way? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean microdocing of all substances has become very fashionable, right.
Speaker 1: People are microdocing LSD, people are microdocing psilocybin. Definitely, there
Speaker 1: is a growing movement of people microdcing ibergaine and IT boger,
Speaker 1: and not just for things like Parkinson's and your degenerative conditions,
Speaker 1: just for well being, you know, between the thirties and
Speaker 1: sixties of French company sold Lamborne, which was effectively a
Speaker 1: kind of micro dosive ibergaine as a stimulant and antidepressant
Speaker 1: and so um for kind of stimulant effects mood effects. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's definitely growing movement of people micro docing I begain
Speaker 1: for that, and then also people micro docing post you know,
Speaker 1: let's say they went in for detoxification with eyeber gain,
Speaker 1: then a provider might well recommend to do some micro
Speaker 1: docing afterwards, so you can have kind of micro docing,
Speaker 1: which would be maybe you know, ten to fifty milligrams
Speaker 1: of iber gain. Then you can have kind of what
Speaker 1: I would call sort of low dose hundred to two
Speaker 1: hundred milligrams. Then you might have a booster slightly higher
Speaker 1: where you'd have more of an experience, um more kind
Speaker 1: of three to four hundred milligrams. There's there's a variety
Speaker 1: of dozing protocols basically, but yeah, I think micro dozing
Speaker 1: will become more popular, especially if we if we discover
Speaker 1: more benefits from it basically and just even anecdotally. I
Speaker 1: mean when we talk to say about that intermediate level,
Speaker 1: what maybe many dosing for lack of a better term
Speaker 1: that people might be using for spiritual insight and awareness,
Speaker 1: like they're doing with ayahuasca or of mescal in or psaulocybin.
Speaker 1: From an actoral perspective, can you compare and contrast the
Speaker 1: use of iber gain at that level, sort of the
Speaker 1: you know, intermediate level, with people's experience with aouaska or
Speaker 1: other substances. Yeah, it's not as visual as aowaska, so
Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, I probably could have gone on
Speaker 1: a lot more about the differences between them, but iowaska,
Speaker 1: you know, can be very visual. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: physical sensations, physical purging, um, euphoria. Whereas with i begain,
Speaker 1: you the visual component at a low mid dose, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not very pronounced. Some people may have it, but
Speaker 1: generally not so pronounced. It's more kind of introspective, um, interesting, thoughtful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I like to look at ibergain, you know,
Speaker 1: in a sense like a kind of um X ray
Speaker 1: of the psyche and emotional field, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and the flood dose is a very tense one, and
Speaker 1: you get to see absolutely everything. And at a lower dose,
Speaker 1: you know, if you'd get a LASS three D approach,
Speaker 1: what about the memory recall element. I think people do
Speaker 1: get memory recall from it. Yeah, not intermediate doses. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean at least from what I've seen, but not
Speaker 1: You're getting me intrigued to try it at that kind
Speaker 1: of lower level or media intermediate level and see what
Speaker 1: exactly that's like. And is there any advice you can
Speaker 1: offer to our listeners if they're actually looking to find
Speaker 1: a place to have and I begin treatment for themselves
Speaker 1: for somebody they care about. I mean, how should they proceed?
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can recommend any um, how
Speaker 1: can you best answer the question? I think, like I
Speaker 1: said in the beginning, definitely look for medically supervised treatment providers,
Speaker 1: you know, um, where there's cardiac support on site. Make
Speaker 1: sure that all the preparation is done adequately. Um, make
Speaker 1: sure that you know they've taken a thorough sort of
Speaker 1: inventory of your health and health history. Are there places
Speaker 1: or websites where people report their experiences and name the
Speaker 1: clinics where they were so people can evaluate based upon
Speaker 1: the consumers experience. I think if you dig around, definitely
Speaker 1: you can find consumer experiences yeah, um written up and
Speaker 1: the various sites you know, show videos. I could list
Speaker 1: a number of clinics, but I also don't have personal
Speaker 1: experience at those clinics, and I don't have and and
Speaker 1: and then there would be many I might leave out
Speaker 1: that I also don't have personal experience of. But go
Speaker 1: for the medically supervised ones. There are several of them
Speaker 1: in Mexico, there's one in Portugal, you know, in um,
Speaker 1: South Africa, Canada, Brazil, I'm sure there's yeah. Just just
Speaker 1: so there's a good cardiac team and medical supervision. Okay,
Speaker 1: that sounds like good advice. Well, Hattie, I have learned
Speaker 1: an immense amount from our conversation here. I hope our
Speaker 1: listeners have as well. So I just want to thank
Speaker 1: you ever so much for joining me and my listeners
Speaker 1: on Psychoactive to talk about IV game. Thank you very much, Ethan.
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure, and thanks to all the listeners too.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,
Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear
Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments,
Speaker 1: and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three, three, seven,
Speaker 1: seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or
Speaker 1: you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com
Speaker 1: or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You
Speaker 1: can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam
Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,
Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures,
Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and
Speaker 1: a special thanks to Avi Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw
Speaker 1: and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with Ellen Scandlin,
Speaker 1: host of the podcast How to Do the Pot, which
Speaker 1: focuses on women and cannabis. Every woman should have a
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