WEBVTT - Hattie Wells on Ibogaine Treatment 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:45.600 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:51.680 revisit the issue of I Begain. I begain the extraordinary 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.440 psychedelic substance from the emergence from the Aboga plant in Gabone. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:58.920 We did talk about this about a year ago on 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.160 the episode with the Nitri Mugianis. But I wanted to 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.640 come back to this and I asked around who should 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:06.920 I have as a guest And the name that kept 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:11.800 popping up is Hattie Wells. Hattie lives in the UK. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.920 She's been a psychedelic practitioner UM for many years. She's 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.520 an ethnobotanist. She's also been involved in drug policy reform. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.720 She's got over twenty years experience researching and working with 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.320 psychedelic She's been an ib GAIN treatment provider in the 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.040 UK for several years now, and she's also working on 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.560 a couple of clinical trials, one involving I Began, the 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:38.440 other one about a drug called five M e O 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.679 d MT which we've not yet really gotten into on 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.679 psychoact yet. And she's worked for a TRANSFORM, which is 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.400 the UK based drug policy form organization, and for the 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.640 Beckley Foundation headed by Amanda Fielding, and also now working 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.560 for ice EARS, which is one of the leading organizations 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.840 in the world involved in re arch on psychedelics and advocacy. 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.240 It's been the host of the World Ayahuasca Congress, and 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:07.960 I guess I should finally say that she's a director 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.120 of the Breaking Convention, which is the UK's largest convention 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:14.840 on psycholic consciousness. So had do you. Thank you so 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.520 much for joining me and my listeners today on Psychoactive. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.280 Hi Ethan, thank you so much for inviting me. Okay, well, 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:27.400 let's start off by just talking about the basics of 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:31.000 I be Gaine, and I'll be quite frank with our audience. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.440 I've always been scared of iby Gain. I mean, I've 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.400 tried many of the psychedelics, even those that are reputation 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.240 for causing to throw up or things like that, But 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.880 but I began, you know, it just seems bigger and 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:48.000 batter and maybe more powerful in its therapeutic value. I 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.679 know that some people will do it at lower doses 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.959 for kind of self exploration and spiritual insight, but it's 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.440 most famous for its use in the treatment of addiction 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.120 and use at higher doses. What do we know among 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.320 the thousands or tens of thousands of reports of people 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:09.480 having done this, about the variety and commonality among experience 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:15.760 with with high dose I begain in terms of treating addiction. Okay, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.160 So even it's interesting that you think of it as 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.720 the kind of bigger, badder psychedelic because actually, as far 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:26.280 as psychedelics go, it's a relatively benign and the agin 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.560 in terms of its um in terms of its strength 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:34.000 of kind of visionary experience. So the experience itself is 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:38.280 characterized by what people terms sort of waking dreams, internal visions, 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.720 but most of that is with eyes closed. So it's 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.640 actually quite easy to pull yourself out of it. And 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:46.880 you know, if you don't like what you're seeing. To 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.480 open your eyes and you know, you don't have the 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:55.720 kind of pronounced ego dissolution or dismemberment or typical sort 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.320 of peak or mystical experience that you might have on 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.400 other psychedelics. So in that respect, you know, it's perhaps 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.560 not as daunting as people have people tend to think 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.160 or have made out. But obviously the length of the experience, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.960 you know, is is for most people somewhat daunting because 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.159 it does last, you know, depending on the dose you take. 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.039 But if we're talking about kind of flood dose or saturation, 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.839 does the higher end, which is anything really above twelve 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:27.640 milligrams peculogram to twenty milligrams peculiar gram that people don't 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.240 tend to go that high anymore, but that um that 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.640 can last anywhere from sort of twenty four thirty six 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.880 forty eight hours really, So that is the piece that 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:43.320 I think, you know, might make Ibergain seem somewhat daunting. 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.440 You are sort of immobilized, so you'll be lying down 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.640 on a bed for at least at least sort of 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.720 sixteen eighteen hours without moving, and you can't move, and 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.880 that that is definitely an intense experience, and many people purge, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.080 many people do vomit it, but that's not you know, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.919 that's not guaranteed. Some people don't. Some people will go 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.520 through without vomiting, without any kind of purging. I mean, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.000 in terms of needing diapers, I don't, you know, that's 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:16.440 not something that's not something that I've experienced. Most people 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.240 can get up and walk to the toilet if they 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.320 need to go to the toilet, with a bit of assistance, obviously, 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.479 with a bit of assistance, because your balance is definitely affected. 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.120 Balance and movement is dramatically affected. So you might think 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.080 that you put your leg in one place, but actually 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.200 you're putting it in a different place. Your your whole 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.560 sense of where you're placing things changes dramatically. And then 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.880 I've heard it also described as like acid times a million. 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.200 I mean, is that bullshit? Or it really depends which 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.719 lens you're looking at it through. Well, that's what I 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.600 was trying to say earlier. You know, I would say 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:53.599 that's that's that's not anything that I've seen or experienced personally. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.839 You know, acid, your visuals can be completely overwhelming to 0:05:57.880 --> 0:05:59.840 the extent that you you know, especially high dose of 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:02.159 acid that you can't see anything in the room and 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.640 everything's melting. You would never get that kind of experience 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.039 on I Begain, you know, your typical eyebergain experience, although 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.440 this does probably only happen for half of people, but 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:13.599 you know, the experience we talk about is one of 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.000 a sort of vivid memory recall for the first six 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.039 to eight hours, a kind of life flashback, as if 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.839 you're watching your life, you know, on a movie screen 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.440 or a sort of movie reel, but you're watching it 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.920 from an objective point of view. You're not emotionally involved 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.480 or triggered by that experience. There is some sort of detachment, 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.719 whereas if you were experiencing those kind of visions on 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.680 LST or any other kind of classic psychedelic you would 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:41.680 be very emotionally involved in that living of those visuals. 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.080 And that's one of the most common traits of the 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.640 hy doc Ibergin experience them sort of memory recall in 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.200 a kind of detect sort of way. Yeah, So the 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.640 high do cybergain experience tends to happen in sort of 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.200 three phases, So you'll have your first kind of you know, 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.680 six to ten hours, let's say, where it's that kind 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.279 of thing it's internal visions, waking dream They might be 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.280 thoughts or stories that are that are you know, depending 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.640 on how visually oriented you are. They may be visual, 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.160 they may not, They may just be thoughts. But it 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:16.440 can be kind of life flashback memory, recall, reliving events, 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:21.120 understanding the pattern of events, understanding why something happened the 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.840 way it did, and having some sense of um kind 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.480 of objectivity around it which helps, which can help you 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.440 to see things in a different way. That period can 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.640 also be accompanied by very vivid hallucinations, but that is 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.480 in the minority of people. So for myself personally, I 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:42.000 did have three D hallucinations more real than anything I've 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.320 had with any other psychedelic, but I am I am 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.440 in a real minority, like I don't know many other 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.160 people that have had that experience, but but it can happen. 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.640 You can have very vivid hallucinations, and then the next 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.560 phase is a is a period of deep introspection, and 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.080 that's the phase that I think gives I begin a 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.320 unique character, really sort of sets it apart from all 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.320 the other psychedelics that we're currently working with and researching. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:11.160 And that after you've had this visual sort of peak experience, 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:17.800 you then have this long contemplative, introspective, reflective period where 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.120 you're definitely still under the effect. You know what, for me, 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.160 this period is the bit where you could engage in 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.760 more psycholitic therapy. I think we might get to that 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.280 point at some you know, in some stage where that 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:32.520 would be where interesting therapeutic discussions could take place. And 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.839 then you get another the third phase, which is kind 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.240 of the residual, where you're still you still might be 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.320 stimulated because obviously it's a stimulant and it's very hard 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.880 to sleep on ib again, so you might feel kind 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:47.080 of wired. And for people experiencing addiction or substance used 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.760 to sort of they that third phase tends to be 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.839 kind of jangly. They don't feel that great because it's 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.440 difficult to relax. But you know, that bat phase can 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.839 also be quite useful for introspection. Just to be a 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:01.720 but they're all a bit of a skeptic here, you know. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.400 Sometimes you hear this debate, like when people take I 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.680 don't know if it's ayahuasca or some other psychedelic plants 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.160 substance in you know, from South America. The frequency of 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.160 seeing the jaguar, for example, and the question becomes, this 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.400 just happens spontaneously even among people have never heard of 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:21.320 the association of the psychedelic with the jaguar, or is 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.720 it somehow kind of implanted in the culture. And with 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.520 respect to this memory recall, I mean, people are obviously 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.240 told beforehand that this is what they might expect. Does 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.080 that precondition them, you think, to have this type of 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.440 detached kind of memory recall experience or is it something 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.360 just you know, even if people are not prepped to 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.959 know that that it's going to be happening anyway, It's 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.400 a very interesting question, and I think it's difficult to 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.439 determine because no one's really looked at that, although actually 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.160 I did here recently that there has been a study 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.040 with other psychedelics looking at that how how the prompts 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.880 before the experience affect the experience, and that they clearly do. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.240 I mean, you would imagine that if you're told X 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.760 and why is going to happen, that it's more likely 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.200 that X and why happens, right, And like I said earlier, 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.240 you know, this vivid memory recal doesn't happen with everybody. 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.520 But I think there's also distinction to be made between 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:21.920 people using this for addiction, you know, to interrupt their addiction, 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:26.600 or people using this for self development, spiritual purposes, curiosity, 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.599 because the experience differs quite you know, it's quite a 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:35.520 pronounced difference between those groups of people. And often, especially 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.040 if you're you know, you're an opioid user, the psychedelic 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.080 effects are somewhat blunted, you know, so the visual component 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.920 and that memory recal might be blunted. Mhm. And in 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.040 terms of I mean just speaking, I don't know if 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:50.800 this has really been measured in studies as yet, but 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.280 you're a subjective experience. As a treatment provider. Does a 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.520 strong memory recall Does that associate with better outcomes for 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.800 people in terms of dealing with their addiction issues? Or 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.320 can people have just as good outcomes with just as 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:09.280 great frequency if they don't go through the memory recall element. Yes, 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.440 so in my experience, I would say that it does. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:13.920 You know that that what I was kind of describing 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.680 as the archetypal trip, the memory recall, the introspection. You know, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:23.480 those three phases um tended to the stronger, the sort 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:28.320 of visionary experience tended to have better long term effects. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.760 But you know that's just in my observation of maybe 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:38.079 sixty seventy people that I facilitated sessions for and I'm 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.280 not aware of it. You know, no one's actually looked 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.200 at that properly because there's obviously a lack of clinical studies, 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.360 right right, And so I'm just I mean, I imagine 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.800 among our listeners just going to be some who are 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.640 curious about whether or not they should take it, either 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.480 for spiritual insight or for a dealing with addiction. I 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.920 imagine there's even more who have a friend or real 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.560 NATIV who's struggling with addiction and they want to know 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.960 if this might be helpful, And a lot of others 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.079 are just curious about, you know, how this is similar 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.120 different to the other ones. So just to kind of 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.920 take us through some of the process and maybe in 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.760 terms of the treatments that you've provided, Um, what's the product? 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.840 I mean, first of all, how do people you know, 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.880 you know come into contact with you? And then what 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.120 sorts of clearance do you have to do so that 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.760 some people are probably told that they're not eligible to 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.439 do this, and then how is it consumed the setting? 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.360 Just walk us through all that, Okay, so let's just 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.679 be clear. So I'm not providing ibergaine treatments in an 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.920 informal way anymore. I'm just working on a clinical trial. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:49.319 So you know, there's there's various routes you can take 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.720 to experiencing iyebergaine, So there would obviously be the clinical 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.480 trial angle, but there's only a couple of countries where 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.720 that's happening, so that's fairly limited at the moment. You know, 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.520 it's absolutely usual to find an eyebgain provider where there 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.760 is some sort of medical supervision or assistance because i 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:13.320 begain does have cardiac implications and there are risks associated, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.440 so it's really important that you're with a provider who 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.360 understands those risks and who can manage them should they 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.679 occur um because there's you know, there's there's over a 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.280 hundred clinics around the world, and some of them are 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.040 medically supervised and some are not, and then there's probably 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.840 tens more of just individuals offering treatments in an informal way. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.920 So it's really important to be clear about the cardiac 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.200 risks and so that you go in informed about them 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.679 and looking for an appropriate practitioner. But let's say your 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.080 practitioner is informed about this has medical supervision is going 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.920 to monitor your vital science, is going to insist that 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.720 you have an ECG prior to the experience. Um, I 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.359 mean preferably that you're monitored with an ECG throughout the experience. 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.840 But that's quite rare these days, but I would definitely 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.920 recommend looking for that. So you want to check your heart, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.560 and you want to check your liver function really, and 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.679 you want to check your electrolyte balance. So they're the 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.480 kind of main safety sort of checks. And what's the 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:19.840 importance of the liver function one? Well, just you know, 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.000 to see how your liver is functioning, because obviously your 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.880 liver function will determine how you metabolize the drug, and 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.760 poor metabolizes, you know, then there's an extra risk of 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:33.800 spike levels of of I beginning or I begin having 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.600 a greater effect on your heart. Really, so you want 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.880 to be carefully mentioned nor I begin So maybe we 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.680 should just interject your Is that what I begain becomes 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:47.000 in the body once it's consumed or is it? Ye? Yeah, 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.880 so I begain it's converted to nor I begain. It's 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.800 it's it's metabolite, but it lasts much longer in the 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.800 body and levels of both of them have different implications 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.760 on cardiac risks UM, so you need to get checked out. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.160 I mean, ideally you wouldn't have a history of cardiac 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:08.880 problems in your family. UM, you would you know, not 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:13.880 have a history of any psychosis. You wouldn't want to 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.160 be well. Again, different providers are different with this, but 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.160 there's certain medications that you'd want to avoid taking. So 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.160 if you were on them, you'd need to taper off 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.280 them and have some assistance tapering off them because some 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.600 drugs will interact negatively with ibergaine. But when you say 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.040 about interactions, is it like with SR eyes where I 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:33.960 think with Ayahuaska you're not supposed to be You're not 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.800 supposed to be using that. What can you say? So, yeah, 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:39.840 S s R E s Ideally, I mean like if 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:41.560 I was working, I would want people to come off 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.520 their S S R eyes. The risk of I begin with, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.640 for your heart is that it can cause something called 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:53.800 QT prolongation, which is basically elongating the wave between your 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:55.920 queue and your tea waves on your e c G. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.560 And that's really about heart contracting and relax xing. So 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.560 it can lead to kind of an abnormal heart rhythm, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.720 which can lead to a fatality. So if you're on 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.760 any other drug that is also prolonging your QT intervals, 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.320 then you would want to you would want to come 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.400 off them because that plus the iber gains prolongation could 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.280 cause a significant risk. You just want to eliminate that risk. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:26.880 So there's a variety of drugs, antihistamines, antipsychotics, antidepressants. Some 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.360 providers will work with with people on those drugs, but 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.000 taking all the right precautions like monitoring on any CG 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.440 the whole way through UM, you know, having assistance at 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.880 hand should there be any problems. But that's why you 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.960 need the medical supervision really. And then so aside the 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.240 kind of medical exclusion, you know, various reasons for medic 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:53.280 for exclusion. You would also want to do some significant 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:58.080 preparation and just to get yourself well informed about iber 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.280 gain and the risks you would be taking and the 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.480 potential experience you would be having. So any provider would 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.960 would do some psych education, which is just giving you 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.760 all that information beforehand, and then you know, ideally and 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.359 maybe have two or three prep sessions. You'd get to 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.840 know your provider. You'd want to you'd want to establish 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.879 really good rapport. You'd need to feel safe with that 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:22.960 person because they're obviously going to be holding space for 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:27.320 you during a long and potentially intense experience, and then 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.200 ensure that they will also offer you some integration after 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.280 the experience, because you know, this is something that we're 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.880 all talking about in psychedelic therapy. The need for integration 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.560 um not only to be able to integrate a potentially 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.480 difficult experience, but also to harvest the lessons and insights 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:49.320 that you get from from you know, less challenging experience, 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.000 just to help you kind of land again and move 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.359 forward with the insights that you've got. We haven't really 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.879 honed a kind of standard method, and everyone has their 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.720 own way of doing this, but I think it's really important. 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.200 This is one of the reasons that I sort of 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.600 stepped away from I began treatment years ago was the 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.159 fact that people would come and have this very profound experience, 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.520 but if there hadn't been enough preparation or integration, which 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.280 often is a cost issue people just simply can't afford it. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.240 Then you know that I bega intense to unearth various 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.720 issues in your life that you've been struggling with and 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.240 if you go back into your same environment, then you're 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.480 walking back in and you know you're going to experience 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:34.560 various various triggers again. And if there isn't the appropriate integration, 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.960 you're very likely to just sort of fall back into 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.760 old patterns, and that may be addiction. If you've come 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:46.440 for addiction interruption. We'll be talking more after we hear 0:18:46.520 --> 0:19:03.600 this add It's not just about the immediate, you know, 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.320 coming down from the day after. What we're really talking 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.720 about for many people sustained period of time, like going 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.199 to see a psychotherapist or saying like that you're on 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.959 a weekly basis or a monthly basis, or you know, 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.520 checking in leading up to it. Then in terms of uh, 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:20.879 I mean people are obviously using ib gain for a 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.760 variety of addictions, as the opioid one, which I think 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.240 is the one that's most known for, but also alcohol 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:31.359 or stimulants, cocaine, maybe the nicotine. What's the recommendation in 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:35.800 terms of abstaining from any of those drugs before the 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.639 i BE GAIN treatment for how long, how necessary it is, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.760 how much does it vary whether it's a stimulant or 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.240 an opioid for example. I mean, so again this varies 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.119 from treatment provider to treatment provider, and some people are 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:52.240 much bolder and more allowing of continuing your drug of choice. 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.320 And it also depends on whether you're going for a 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.040 flood dose or a slow dose protocol. But let's kind 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.399 of maybe the easiest way of explaining it would be 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.080 to take, you know, to take some examples, so you know, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.359 you would basically look at the half life of your 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.120 drug of choice and you would want to give at 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.520 least that time period before you take the IEB again. 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:19.000 Ideally you'd want to leave twenty four hours really from 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.240 your last dose to your eye again. Now, in terms 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.840 of alcohol, actually I never worked with anyone with an 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.159 alcohol disorder, and I know that withdrawal from alcohol is 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.439 a lot more dangerous and it presents with a lot 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.760 more issues. And I because I've not done a protocol 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.040 with alcohol, I couldn't I couldn't really speak to that. 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.320 So let's just eliminate alcohol from this discussion and just 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:44.720 talk about um opioids or stimulants. And with the opioids, 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.200 is I mean that people are already if it's methanine 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.040 or or heroin, that they're actually in some state of withdrawal. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.720 Often times by the time they take Yeah, so that's 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.360 what happens. When they come to take the eye again, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.520 they will the withdrawal symptoms will probably just be presenting. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.439 So the protocol that I used um withdrawal would just 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.479 be presenting. I would then administer a testos which is 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:09.440 like one to two milligrams of iber gain, and then 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:11.320 that would that would sort of take the edge of 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.520 the withdrawal and it would show us, you know, how 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.600 the person responded to the iber gain, and then we 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.960 would then do the flood dose after that, so effectively 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.080 you don't really enter the withdrawal period. You're just sort 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:27.880 of skirting on the edge of it. M hm hm. Now, 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:32.159 I guess the thing that's really maybe most astounding about 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.240 I be Gain, apart from this kind of detached sort 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.000 of memory recall, is the fact that it seems to 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:43.840 alleviate or even disappear the withdrawal symptoms that once so 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.600 oftentimes associates with opioid withdrawal. And that's that does not 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.960 seem to be true of any of the other psychedelics 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.399 that are being used in addiction treatment. And so do 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.800 we have any understanding as yet about what I mean, 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.679 what that's about, What do we know about that, you know, 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:04.120 interruption of the withdrawal. Well, that's kind of the most 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:06.480 astounding thing about iber gain really, and that is how 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:11.000 I mean, that's how we discovered ibor gaine's anti addiction 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.240 sort of potential was because Howard lots of in the 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.960 sixties um decided to take iber gain in an experimental 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.760 way with various friends as a psychedelic experience, and he 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:26.879 happened to be a heroin user, and he realized after 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:28.920 you know, he came down from his iber gain trip 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.199 that he hadn't experienced withdrawal and he no longer had 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.640 any withdrawal symptoms. And there were seven heroin users among 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:36.919 his twenty friends who were experimenting with it, and they 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:41.080 all experienced the same thing. So there definitely is something 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:47.000 to ib again whereby it dramatically reduces withdrawal symptoms, if 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:51.600 not eliminates them. And in terms of you know, how 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.880 that happens, why that happens, we're still not entirely clear. 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.399 The pharmacology of ibergaine is still you know, it's a 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.560 bit blurry. We've got some idea years of of how 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.639 it works and the various neuro transmitter sites that it targets. 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:10.440 But I think as for actually explaining how it stops withdrawal, 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:15.040 I think we're still somewhat in the dark mm hmm. 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.280 But it's pretty well documented now right across thousands of 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:22.280 people having this almost miraculous absence of I mean, for 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.480 people have been addicted to opioids for many years. People 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.320 aren't herowing people wanting to you know, who have been 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:29.439 on methodine for a long time and wanted getting off it. 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.840 It's um, I mean, it's it's basically it happens for 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:37.920 everybody or almost everybody this this. Uh yeah, I would say, 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.879 I would say, I mean, in my own experience, probably 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.000 for kind of eighty of people there. You know, there 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.320 are a small number especially methodone users. Actually, you know, 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:53.440 long term methodone uses may experience still some withdrawal symptoms, 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:58.280 but they're dramatically reduced. Yeah. Well, actually, maybe this is 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:00.160 a good place to bring up the study that you're 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.439 engaged in with icere is right now, right, which is 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:05.480 about you know, kind of innovative approach to try and 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:07.439 to help people who want to get off method I mean, 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.399 obviously for many people or our method and it can 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.560 be a lifelong medication. It can be very successful, but 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:14.520 there are many people, for one reason or another, who 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.600 do want to get off it. What can you say 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.959 about that study that you're currently engaged in. Okay, so 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.479 I'm not actually currently engaged with the i as methodone study. 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.359 I have done some consultancy with I See is, but 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.359 I'm actually working with the Demo rex I Begin study, 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.280 which will be working with opioid us as well. We're 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:36.000 still in the healthy volunteer phase, but I can I 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:38.520 can definitely discussed the ICE study a bit. Although they 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:43.639 haven't published their results yet, they've got twenty methodone users 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:46.359 and they are using a slow dose protocol, which is 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:48.639 just worth talking about now because there's I think I've 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.200 mainly been talking about this sort of flood saturation dose, 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.679 which is what I worked with, you know, almost twenty 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:57.160 years ago, but now people are are moving away from 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:59.920 that because of the cardiac implications and because of the 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.720 deaths that have occurred. There is a move, I would say, 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:08.119 towards this slower dose protocol, which is using I begain 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.640 in a way to kind of taper down your opioid use. 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:15.360 So the I See his study I think gives six doses. 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:18.800 It split the group into two groups, and each group 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:22.359 receives a dose of iber gain one that one group 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.480 gets six doses of a hundred milligrams and the other 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:30.880 gets an ascending dose, so hundred milligrams then two hundred, 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.680 three hundred, six eight hundred. I can't remember how it goes, 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:37.399 but they have six doses of an escalating dose, and 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:40.919 with each of those doses, they reduce their methodone use 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:46.359 by half, so they're effectively tapering down their methodone and 0:25:46.440 --> 0:25:50.399 also being administered I began at the same time, which 0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:55.640 you know, supposedly will eliminate the withdrawal symptoms and sort 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:58.440 of flood the system over a number of days with 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:03.960 iber gain instead of that immediate flood dose, which potentially 0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:07.560 has more risks. Mhm. And these are generally people have 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:12.000 been fairly stabilized our method on when yeah, yeah, they've 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:15.000 been on a method and program and I think, you know, 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:16.679 I think I can say they haven't had yeah, they 0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:19.280 haven't had any adverse events yet, no hospitalized, but no 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:23.240 serious adverse events in the hospitalization yet. So and I 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:27.720 hear they have very promising results, but it's not published yet. Okay, 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:29.760 and what about the study that you're engaged in the UK. 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:33.800 So this is a single dose study. Um it's a 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:36.920 Phase one and Phase two A studies, So it's currently 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:42.600 unhealthy volunteers and there's four cohorts. So each group will 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:48.320 receive first group three milligrams, next group the three milligrams peculogram, 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:53.040 next group six milligrams pekulogram, next group nine milligrams pekulogram, 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:56.360 and if all of them have been safe and tolerated, 0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:59.199 then it'll move up to twelve milligrams pekulogram, which is 0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:02.120 ki of the target dose of a number of clinics 0:27:02.160 --> 0:27:05.320 around the world. So we're looking at the tolerable tolerability 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:09.359 really and the safety. And there's a lot of um 0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:13.199 ACG monitoring and looking at the QT intervals throughout the 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.560 experience to see you see pro kilogram you mean of 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.800 their own body weight. So in other words, the assumption 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:23.119 is that there's reason to believe that the dose should 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:26.800 be a reflection of somebody's body weight. Yes, exactly, Why 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:30.600 is that? Well, because I mean, I guess with lots 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:34.680 of mental health drugs, psychiatric drugs, they do that they 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:38.000 dose according to body weight because each person will will 0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:40.160 respond in a different way according to a body weight. 0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:42.520 I know with the other classic psychedelics they don't do 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:46.159 that so much, but I think um with lots of 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:51.679 psychiatric drugs they do m So Phase two will then 0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:54.320 move on to we'll look at the best the sort 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:59.400 of maximum tolerated dose and the sort of ideal target dose, 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:03.040 and then move on to phase two offering that dose 0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:10.080 to opioid dependent individuals and then assess again safety, toleer ability, 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:14.600 and efficacy. So this this first co this first study. 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:17.359 Phase one is thirty participants and then hopefully they'll be 0:28:17.400 --> 0:28:21.960 eighty participants among opioid users. So this is really the 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.560 first well, I mean there's obviously the i c IS 0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:29.360 study going on, but this is, yeah, this is one 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:33.120 of the first Phase one and phase two going together, 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.680 and especially doing all the card monitoring, which is really 0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:42.120 crucial I think to getting ibergain licensed. So now let's 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:44.400 go to this world of the clinics. I think you 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:46.640 mentioned the beginning that there's maybe over a hundred that 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:49.240 we know about around the world. I mean they seem 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:52.280 to show up a lot, I think in Mexico and 0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:56.200 it's a Costa Rica and sometimes the Caribbean. Um, but 0:28:56.280 --> 0:29:00.640 I guess they've also been in the UK and the Netherlands, Canada, etcetera. Um, 0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:02.760 what do we know about this network? I mean, are 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:05.480 there are there chains? Off? I begin, clinics where one 0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:08.280 person or owner owns a whole bunch of them in 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:12.760 different places. Uh. Does anybody have a kind of list? 0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:16.080 Is there a directory of these clinics anywhere? Uh? Does? 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:18.520 Some of them have fantastic reputations, have been around for 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.800 many years? What can you tell us? Yeah, I've never 0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:25.600 heard about a directory, but that's not a bad idea. Um. 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:29.400 And I've not heard of chains either, But it's possible 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:32.719 that there maybe you know, a clinic and I think 0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:36.000 I might have heard that there's you know, some business 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:39.440 that has a couple of clinics in Mexico. But there's Yeah, 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:42.959 there's not chains yet. I mean Universal Eye again, I 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:46.600 think is attempting to do that. So they're working in 0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:49.719 Canada and they will be conducting clinical trials in Canada. 0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:53.520 But that is their idea is to create sort of 0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:56.840 medicalized clinical model and have clinics around the world. So 0:29:56.880 --> 0:29:59.600 at the moment, it's more individual clinics with a sort 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:03.440 of cl Susta in Mexico, Costa Rica. Like you said, 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:08.280 more informal treatment providers around Europe, not so much clinics. 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:12.080 There's a clinic in Portugal Tabularrassa UM, and then there's 0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:17.680 obviously individual providers as well in Mexico and Canada. There's 0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:22.880 also clinics in Canada and South Africa and Brazil. So 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:28.360 in Brazil and Canada and South Africa and New Zealand. 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:31.640 Actually I begains been put on the kind of prescription 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:35.400 drug list, which means doctors can prescribe it, so it 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:37.880 can Yeah, it can be prescribed in a clinic, so 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:42.120 there are obviously that's an easier legal situation for clinics 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:46.240 to develop in. And then in Mexico there are a 0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:49.120 number of clinics and they get licensed as rehab clinics. 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:51.920 Really not licensed for I begain news because I begins 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:56.200 not a licensed medicine in Mexico. But um, it's not regulated. 0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:59.320 So there are places where like government, some kind of 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:02.240 regulatory officials are actually checking up on these things or 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:04.320 where they need to look at the whole protocol and 0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:08.040 give their approval. Yeah, and they're definitely the authorities, local 0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:10.720 authorities are aware of what the clinics are doing in 0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.480 these places. And these are all either places whether they're 0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:17.000 on the prescription drug list or where it's unregulated. It's 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.560 not scheduled drugs. Obviously, in the US I began as 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:21.480 a Schedule one drug. No one would get away of 0:31:21.520 --> 0:31:24.400 doing anything like that there. In the UK we have 0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:27.840 the Psychoactive Substance Act, which means that it's legal. It 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:31.120 would be legal to consume um ibergain or a boger, 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:35.080 but not legal to administer. So clinics are definitely not 0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:37.480 legal in the UK. And there's no clinics up and 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:42.480 running here. Um. And then you know Holland, there's a 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:48.560 gray area, so shops openly selling iboga and iboga extracts 0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:51.480 and providers working. Yeah, So there's and and then there's 0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:53.880 other countries in Europe where it's banned like in the 0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:58.719 United States, Um, Italy, France, New Zealand. I saw pop up. 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:01.800 Is it legal in New zeal End? Did anything happening there? Well, 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:04.520 so that's the same New Zealand. I think I just included, 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:06.160 but maybe I didn't. New Zealand is the same as 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:09.800 prescription drugs, so you can, yeah, you can legally prescribe. 0:32:10.360 --> 0:32:14.640 I began in New Zealand, and there are some clinics there. 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:16.320 There are a couple of clinics there that I know of. 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:20.120 There maybe more. And in terms of the International Drug 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:24.040 Control system, which has banned some of the psychedelics, whereas 0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:28.440 I begin in that, so it's not it's not a 0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:34.360 scheduled drug in the UN conventions, so that eases things up, 0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:38.200 I see, well, but in in individual countries it is, 0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:42.120 so it doesn't necessarily use it up. Yeah, right right, 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:46.720 depends it depends where you are. I see, and and um. 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:48.920 And then the Caribbean I saw, in fact, I know 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:52.400 the son of a friend of mine had a successful 0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:55.040 I began treatment in the Caribbean. Is it just is 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:56.760 it a bunch of different islands or is the same 0:32:56.880 --> 0:33:00.840 kits or so? Debramash had a clinic and KITS so 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:02.640 that that was running for a number of years, and 0:33:02.680 --> 0:33:07.800 she published a paper on on the detoxification opioid detoxif 0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:13.600 occasional two seventy seven participants I think, and had had 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:17.120 remarkable results. So she's that that's the kind of longest 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:23.720 standing I began clinic license in a way explain to 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:26.200 our to our listeners who are the significance of doctor 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:30.200 Debora Mash in all this. So Debra match is there 0:33:30.600 --> 0:33:34.560 is a neuroscientist who has been involved in, you know, 0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:38.640 trying to develop ibergain as a treatment for addiction for years, 0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:43.360 six years, and she's currently running the study that I'm 0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:50.640 working on in London. She managed to get neider back 0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:53.080 in the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the States 0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:58.440 get Neider backing for phase one studies in ninety four 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:02.360 I think in in the United States and they administered 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:05.080 I think up to two milligrams pekilogram and the study 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.880 round for a short while and then terminated. And she 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:13.160 then set up her clinic in St. Kitts and carried 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:17.200 on treating people and doing lots of research on ibergaine 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.520 and has really never you know, she's really kind of 0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:25.040 never given up bringing this to market and ensuring access 0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:28.200 for addicts to this treatment. I met Deborah Mash I 0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:30.920 think twenty five years ago when I was lobbying and 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:33.520 trying to raise awareness of iber gaine in the UK, 0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:36.720 and we invited her over and took her to lecture 0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:39.680 at various places, trying to sort of open the ears 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:42.880 and eyes of various addiction agencies to the potential of 0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:46.160 iber gaine and various research operations. But you know, we 0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:48.160 didn't get anywhere. And I think it's been a really long, 0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:53.120 hard fight. Let's take a break here and go to 0:34:53.200 --> 0:35:10.880 an add Most of my encounter with I Begain was 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:14.840 really beginning in the early nineties from the activist side. 0:35:15.040 --> 0:35:17.640 I mean you mentioned earlier Howard lots Off, you know, 0:35:17.719 --> 0:35:21.000 and Howard's you know experiences a nineteen year old realizing 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:24.520 that I Begain had eliminated the withdrawal symptoms for him 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:28.279 and other friends associated with the heroin addiction. And in fact, 0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:31.359 I think in recognition of his work, my organization Drug 0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:34.040 Policy Alliance awarded him a big award Charlie before he 0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:36.640 died some years ago. But then it was also the 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:41.000 the yippie activist Dana Beale. It was the Israeli fellow 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:44.600 of BoA's Lochtell, who's you know, then starts the Israeli 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:46.960 Greenleaf Party to try to legalize marijuana, but he was 0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:51.520 administering lots of treatments. And Bob Cisco, another activist who 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:53.880 in fact just died recently. I just was at his 0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:57.040 memorial service in New York a few months ago. But 0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.600 this set of activists, you know, what was their role 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:02.399 in all and how much were they joined by others 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:06.080 around the world. Well, so we really wouldn't know about 0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:11.279 the potential therapeutic potential of iber Game for addiction if 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:13.960 it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for Howard and 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:17.120 normal really you know, trying to spread the word and 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:20.600 raise awareness because of their own experience, but then because 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:22.719 of the experience of others that they administered I be 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:25.280 gain too, or that they you know, showed other addicts 0:36:25.360 --> 0:36:28.480 how to help other addicts, and this kind of addict 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:31.680 self help movement grew, and Bob Sisko obviously started up 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:36.120 Eye Cash, the International Coalition Addict Self Help I think 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:41.239 that's right, which was really based in the Netherlands, So 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:44.040 there was a kind of connection between New York and 0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:49.160 the Netherlands, Rotterdam specifically. I think this laye network of 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:56.120 people addicts helping addicts really and you know subculture of 0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:59.000 iber gain treatment providers, people who had gone through it 0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:03.960 themselves and helping other people and so forth. And you know, 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:10.560 they organized conferences, they lobbied government bodies, um Howard lots 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.920 of obviously took out a series of patents in the 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:18.480 mid eighties, and you know, managed to have conversations with Neida. 0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:22.080 I think it was you know, his meeting with Debora 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:27.160 that that helped kick stock Debra's interest and Deborah's movement 0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:31.000 with Ibergine. So really, this, this whole kind of movement 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:33.880 is all thanks to them, and they really deserve to 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:37.120 be massively honored. You know, this area of the for 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:40.680 profit companies which are all you know, there's now obviously many, 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:43.880 many of them, and they're funding university research centers. And 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:46.799 I've read that a TIE, which may be the most 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:49.680 well financed of all of the investors, is looking at 0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:52.960 this and that Mine Mead has also been taking a 0:37:52.960 --> 0:37:55.080 look all I think they're looking at a synthetic derivative 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:57.560 of I beginning called AT and m C. I know 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:01.160 of some others. But is that where the funding and 0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:04.959 the push is coming from now, and what's your thoughts 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:07.560 about all that? Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely where the push 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:10.719 is coming from obviously. Yeah, you've got Demorex and a 0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:15.279 TIE they've collaborating on the study in the UK, and 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:19.440 you've got I'm not quite sure who's funding the studies 0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:22.399 in Brazil. Actually but yeah, it's it's private money coming 0:38:22.640 --> 0:38:26.560 you know, it's corporate money coming in and really mobilizing 0:38:26.640 --> 0:38:29.480 these studies and providing the kind of money that's needed 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:34.520 to take these compounds further. I think and obviously I 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:37.600 begain can I mean, I mean, Howard lots of years ago, 0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:40.440 decades ago, had these patents about the use of I 0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:44.080 began for treatment. Those have now expired, So I imagine 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:46.920 and I began itself cannot be patented I measure at 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:49.440 this time. So at this point, is it about you know, 0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:53.239 trying to get patents on the derivatives or on we 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:56.520 talked about before, nor I begain, you know, the basic 0:38:56.600 --> 0:38:59.799 substances it comes when it was human body. Yeah, there's 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:03.879 an or I begain, there's derivatives, there's there's treatment protocols 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:08.880 that will probably be technology associated with the treatment that 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:13.560 will be patented. Um. Hey, I'm also full disclosure here. 0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:18.680 Um there's another new startup, UM a company called I 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:22.040 Bogus scene. I had Boas Wachtel was in New York 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:24.440 visiting me and he said he's and I'm starting this company. Uh, 0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:26.319 you know, you want to be in the advisory boarder. 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:28.680 And I said, well, I guess, so it sounds interesting. 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:31.320 So that thing is just look at you know, launching 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:33.920 now I I bogus scene. But was they're going to 0:39:33.960 --> 0:39:36.320 be looking at, I think is less focused on addiction 0:39:36.440 --> 0:39:39.840 treatment and looking at treatment of other things. You know, 0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:41.759 their their materials say that they want to look at 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:44.200 the using I begaine for dealing with things like gastro 0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:48.960 intestinal stuff and autoimmune disease and sleep disorders and maybe cancer, 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:53.160 neurogenitive diseases. And I've heard it talked about visavi Parkinson's 0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:56.000 as well. So what do you know about the value 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.120 or potential value of I began for treating not just addiction, 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:02.440 but there are types of mental conditions or even these 0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:06.080 physical ones. Yes, I did talk to Boas actually and 0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:09.439 I did. I am aware of iboga seen and it's 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.720 you know, obviously my background's ethnobotany. So it's very interesting 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.080 because this is really ethno medicine that they're taking forward, 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:18.040 looking at the traditional use of a boga in its 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:22.040 traditional context in Gobon and medicinal uses they have for 0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:27.000 it there, which are this gastro intestinal um issues and 0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:31.080 the other ones you mentioned. So I think among treatment providers, 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:34.919 you know, there's been all sorts of anecdotal reports about 0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:39.239 the immune boosting effects, you know, even dare I say it, 0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:44.080 You know, people are speculating about its potential in low 0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:47.360 doses again, in sort of micro doses for COVID and 0:40:47.480 --> 0:40:51.200 respiratory conditions. So I think, I think this is kind 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:53.520 of a nascent field, and I'm sure people will start 0:40:53.600 --> 0:40:59.000 looking at different applications of it, And personally, I've been 0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:02.520 very interested in its potential application for Parkinson's. In fact, 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:04.839 that's kind of what got me back into ibergain after 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:08.520 after a long break from it, because I kind of had, 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:11.959 you know, put down the addiction, not thinking it wasn't 0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:14.000 really moving and it wasn't going to get anywhere, and 0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:17.719 also my life kind of changed and addiction didn't seem 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:21.480 so you know, sort of present and relevant to me, 0:41:21.760 --> 0:41:24.480 and things were kind of stalled in terms of research. 0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:28.400 And then I got invited to one of these conferences 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:30.720 by Dana in two thousand and seventeen, and I watched 0:41:30.719 --> 0:41:34.480 a man give a presentation on having taken micro doses 0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:37.640 of very low doses of iber game for his Parkinson's 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:43.799 and having had remarkable results really in attenuation of symptoms. 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:47.560 And you know, at that time my mother got diagnosed 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:50.960 with Alzheimer's and my stepfather a year later. So I've 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:53.600 been very sort of focused on neurodegenerative conditions and the 0:41:53.640 --> 0:41:57.760 potential applications and psychedelics in this area, and I'm watching 0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:00.359 very keenly. In fact, when I was working out there 0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:06.600 Beckley Foundation, I was really trying to encourage interest in that. Now, 0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:08.839 how do you mentioned earlier that you know your life 0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:12.359 had changed visa the diction and that was in part 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:14.640 why you're looking in some of these other uses for you? 0:42:15.160 --> 0:42:17.520 Was the initial entry into I Begaine as somebody like 0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:20.800 Howard Lotsof who used it and found it transformative? Or 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:23.680 did it come about our other ways? Well? So I 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:27.879 I first heard about ibergain I guess in this sort 0:42:27.920 --> 0:42:31.200 of mid nineties, but it wasn't until the late nineties 0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:34.520 that I got more directly involved. And that was actually 0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:37.560 sort of coincidentally. I just got asked to organize a 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:41.280 series of conferences on I Begain. I had been involved 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:44.120 myself with Aowaska. Was much more interested in Ayawaska as 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:46.840 a psychedelic. I had spent several years of researching it 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:54.439 as an anthropology student and participating in rituals and experimenting 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:57.400 with it, and I had found that had really pulled 0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:01.080 me out of my UM. I did to kind of 0:43:01.160 --> 0:43:05.880 patterns and tendencies so I had had during my teenage 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:10.160 years and kind of early adulthood, consumed a lot of drugs, 0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:12.839 been very involved in the drug scene. I'd gone into 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:15.000 it with Aawaska and I've done my work so to 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:18.440 beat with arahuaska to resolve a cocaine and I had 0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:20.839 a kind of cocaine and alcohol habit. But I had 0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:23.759 witnessed lots of my friends O D. I had lost 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:26.680 several friends from addiction, so addiction was very sort of 0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:29.040 prevalent in my life. I'd also had lots of friends 0:43:29.400 --> 0:43:34.279 UM have psychotic episodes from various drugs. And so when 0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:36.600 I heard about IB again, even though I no longer 0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:40.920 you know, was in the kind of midst of any addiction, 0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:44.920 substance addiction, UM, I was obviously very interested in how 0:43:44.960 --> 0:43:46.719 it could help my friends and how it could help 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.680 those around me. When I did take it personally, I 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:54.400 was addicted to tobacco still and it did help me 0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:59.120 UM quit my tobacco addiction. But I have to preface 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:02.920 this with you lasted for a year, so I had 0:44:03.040 --> 0:44:05.880 I had a good twelve months with no tobacco, and 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:09.560 then I relapsed. Um, and then I carried on smoking 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:11.399 for another I don't know how many years, but then 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:15.120 managed to stop, you know, probably what they used to 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:18.640 other psychedelics. When you think about, you know, compare and 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:22.200 contrast how they're similar, how they're different. Between ayahuasca and 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:24.920 I bow that I began. Um what stands out for 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:30.399 you first in terms of talking about the experience itself. Um, 0:44:31.080 --> 0:44:35.160 So the experience itself, I think, you know, they're very distinct. 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:39.680 Obviously I began as much much longer lasting, and like 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:42.879 I said earlier, you know, characterized by this more sort 0:44:42.920 --> 0:44:47.560 of memory we called dreamlike visions, whereas ayahuaska, you know, 0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:52.040 especially it's sort of strong doses and kind of peak 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:55.799 experience can be much more about ego dissolution and um, 0:44:56.520 --> 0:45:01.600 you know, liquefying consciousness, connection with everything around you, oneness 0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:04.520 are to change in your sense of appropriate reception, where 0:45:04.560 --> 0:45:08.839 your body ends and begins, where you end and begin. Um. 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:12.320 So there's that, there's definitely that difference. You don't have 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:16.359 that going on with the ibergaine. M hmm. Let's see 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:18.800 an in terms of iowaska has also typically done in 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:22.600 a kind of group setting, whereas i begaine is almost 0:45:22.800 --> 0:45:26.920 entirely done in a solo setting. Right, Yeah, that's a 0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:30.880 massive difference. Yes, so iowaska is usually done, although some 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:33.040 people do do one on one aowaska sessions, but it 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:35.279 is usually done in a group setting in a more 0:45:35.360 --> 0:45:38.200 kind of ceremonial setting, although again it boga depending on 0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:40.880 whether you take ibergain or a boga, there is a 0:45:41.040 --> 0:45:45.799 very elaborate at boga ritual ceremony, group ceremony if you're 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:48.760 following more the tradition of the buety that is again 0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:56.960 a community, communal experience, many people, a lot of music, dancing, contact, 0:45:57.440 --> 0:45:59.040 you know. Then then then it's so if you go 0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:02.240 to the traditional use of a boga, it's more similar 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.759 I suppose to the iowaska apart from the fact that 0:46:04.880 --> 0:46:07.920 it is used as an initiative, you know, traditionally as 0:46:07.960 --> 0:46:11.720 an initiation ritual in high doses or in low doses, 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:15.720 you know, more for the kind of ceremony, prayer, prayers, 0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:18.640 not all night vituals that they do as part of 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:22.160 their religion. Yeah, I think I got we got into 0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:24.520 this a bit on the episode with Dmitry last year, 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.200 because he actually did go to Gabon and was initiated 0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:29.239 into the wheety. And I think, you know, when we 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.719 were talking earlier, Hetty about the uses for things other 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:35.080 than addiction, right, I think a fair bit of the 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:37.480 awareness of that comes from what was happening with the 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:41.320 wheaty and their use of iboga. Is that right? Yes, definitely, 0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:43.759 so Boger has used you know, like I said, like 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:49.520 in large doses for initiation, contact with the ancestors, spiritual guidance, healing, 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:53.600 but in low doses it's used, yeah, for a variety 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.080 of illnesses as an ethnic medicine, you know, as a 0:46:56.239 --> 0:46:59.920 medicinal herb, you know. I mean. One of the other 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:02.520 issues that keeps emerging more and more now, right is 0:47:02.680 --> 0:47:06.799 what are the rights and responsibilities towards indigenous peoples, whether 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:10.560 it's with ayahuasca coming from the Amazon regional Latin America, 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:14.400 whether it's with peyote, and of course with eboga and 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:17.960 the Boti. And there is this Nagoya Protocol, I guess, 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:21.400 the sort of international treaty that many nations are signing 0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:24.520 on to UM. But what can you tell us about 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:26.719 that vise the eboga and how it compares to what's 0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:30.800 going on with the the other substances. You know, with 0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:35.399 this whole issue of kind of indigenous intellectual property rights, UM, 0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:39.600 it's in a way sort of easier to pinpoint with 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:43.239 the boga and Equatorial Africa. You know, there's a long 0:47:43.280 --> 0:47:46.880 tradition of use, we know the various groups that use it. 0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:51.279 So this idea of kind of benefits sharing should theoretically 0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:55.160 be more straightforward, although there's no sort of Um, there 0:47:55.200 --> 0:47:58.240 are no homogeneous indigenous groups, and there are various groups 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:01.560 using in different ways, and so how you would coordinate 0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:07.359 that benefit sharing is going to be somewhat complicated. I'm sure. Um. 0:48:07.920 --> 0:48:11.680 There is a group already operating Blessings of the Forest, 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:16.359 headed up by someone called you Non, and they are 0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:19.360 trying to ensure benefits sharing and the sustainability of a 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:22.360 boger because obviously, you know it burger is a valuable 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:26.080 natural product in Gabon, and there's a lot of poaching 0:48:26.239 --> 0:48:29.759 and wild harvesting of a boger and if there's growing 0:48:29.840 --> 0:48:32.520 demand around the world, this is you know, the issue 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:36.160 of sustainability is only going to grow, and so the 0:48:36.280 --> 0:48:39.800 Blessings of the forest are very much um interested in 0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:43.760 setting up sustainable plantations and working with people to ensure 0:48:43.840 --> 0:48:48.840 sustainability and to ensure that um. You know, there's no 0:48:48.960 --> 0:48:54.080 illegal export of it Boger out the country, you can't. 0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:57.480 I mean, actually it Boger is a national cultural heritage 0:48:58.280 --> 0:49:02.080 in Gabon, so it easily eagle to export it. But 0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:06.360 there's you know, there's various ways around. That's very interesting, 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:10.480 you know you mentioned earlier, just to switch again, micro docing. 0:49:10.640 --> 0:49:13.440 I mean, this has become such a phenomenon, So what 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.359 is the story. I mean, there's obviously micro docing, there's 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:19.080 many dozing, there's what you call the flood dozing or 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:23.880 you know, macro dosing. Um is there the micro docing? 0:49:23.960 --> 0:49:25.360 What can you tell us about that? Are more and 0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.920 more people doing it or trying it that way? Well, 0:49:27.960 --> 0:49:31.040 I mean microdocing of all substances has become very fashionable, right. 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:34.839 People are microdocing LSD, people are microdocing psilocybin. Definitely, there 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:38.320 is a growing movement of people microdcing ibergaine and IT boger, 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:41.560 and not just for things like Parkinson's and your degenerative conditions, 0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:44.560 just for well being, you know, between the thirties and 0:49:44.640 --> 0:49:48.560 sixties of French company sold Lamborne, which was effectively a 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:53.560 kind of micro dosive ibergaine as a stimulant and antidepressant 0:49:53.719 --> 0:49:59.480 and so um for kind of stimulant effects mood effects. Yeah, 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:03.480 there's definitely growing movement of people micro docing I begain 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:07.440 for that, and then also people micro docing post you know, 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:11.560 let's say they went in for detoxification with eyeber gain, 0:50:11.640 --> 0:50:14.799 then a provider might well recommend to do some micro 0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:18.000 docing afterwards, so you can have kind of micro docing, 0:50:18.040 --> 0:50:21.160 which would be maybe you know, ten to fifty milligrams 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:23.160 of iber gain. Then you can have kind of what 0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:25.880 I would call sort of low dose hundred to two 0:50:25.960 --> 0:50:30.320 hundred milligrams. Then you might have a booster slightly higher 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:34.359 where you'd have more of an experience, um more kind 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:37.520 of three to four hundred milligrams. There's there's a variety 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:41.000 of dozing protocols basically, but yeah, I think micro dozing 0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:43.800 will become more popular, especially if we if we discover 0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:47.360 more benefits from it basically and just even anecdotally. I 0:50:47.400 --> 0:50:49.839 mean when we talk to say about that intermediate level, 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:53.000 what maybe many dosing for lack of a better term 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:57.759 that people might be using for spiritual insight and awareness, 0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:01.880 like they're doing with ayahuasca or of mescal in or psaulocybin. 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:05.440 From an actoral perspective, can you compare and contrast the 0:51:06.120 --> 0:51:09.040 use of iber gain at that level, sort of the 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:13.400 you know, intermediate level, with people's experience with aouaska or 0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:18.160 other substances. Yeah, it's not as visual as aowaska, so 0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:20.239 I think that. Yeah, I probably could have gone on 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:22.320 a lot more about the differences between them, but iowaska, 0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:25.279 you know, can be very visual. There's a lot of 0:51:25.480 --> 0:51:33.920 physical sensations, physical purging, um, euphoria. Whereas with i begain, 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:38.680 you the visual component at a low mid dose, you know, 0:51:38.760 --> 0:51:41.160 it's not very pronounced. Some people may have it, but 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:48.399 generally not so pronounced. It's more kind of introspective, um, interesting, thoughtful. Yeah, 0:51:48.400 --> 0:51:50.279 I mean I like to look at ibergain, you know, 0:51:50.360 --> 0:51:53.879 in a sense like a kind of um X ray 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:58.000 of the psyche and emotional field, you know, and and 0:51:58.400 --> 0:52:00.520 and the flood dose is a very tense one, and 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:04.080 you get to see absolutely everything. And at a lower dose, 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:10.680 you know, if you'd get a LASS three D approach, 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:13.840 what about the memory recall element. I think people do 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:21.959 get memory recall from it. Yeah, not intermediate doses. Um yeah, 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:25.840 I mean at least from what I've seen, but not 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:31.160 You're getting me intrigued to try it at that kind 0:52:31.200 --> 0:52:35.040 of lower level or media intermediate level and see what 0:52:35.160 --> 0:52:38.200 exactly that's like. And is there any advice you can 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:42.320 offer to our listeners if they're actually looking to find 0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:45.160 a place to have and I begin treatment for themselves 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:48.520 for somebody they care about. I mean, how should they proceed? 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:51.920 I don't know if you can recommend any um, how 0:52:51.960 --> 0:52:54.759 can you best answer the question? I think, like I 0:52:54.800 --> 0:52:58.759 said in the beginning, definitely look for medically supervised treatment providers, 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:03.439 you know, um, where there's cardiac support on site. Make 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:07.879 sure that all the preparation is done adequately. Um, make 0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:11.239 sure that you know they've taken a thorough sort of 0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:15.040 inventory of your health and health history. Are there places 0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:18.160 or websites where people report their experiences and name the 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:21.040 clinics where they were so people can evaluate based upon 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:25.760 the consumers experience. I think if you dig around, definitely 0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:30.800 you can find consumer experiences yeah, um written up and 0:53:30.920 --> 0:53:35.600 the various sites you know, show videos. I could list 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:38.000 a number of clinics, but I also don't have personal 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:41.080 experience at those clinics, and I don't have and and 0:53:41.280 --> 0:53:43.160 and then there would be many I might leave out 0:53:43.600 --> 0:53:46.200 that I also don't have personal experience of. But go 0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:48.640 for the medically supervised ones. There are several of them 0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:52.319 in Mexico, there's one in Portugal, you know, in um, 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:59.680 South Africa, Canada, Brazil, I'm sure there's yeah. Just just 0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:03.320 so there's a good cardiac team and medical supervision. Okay, 0:54:03.440 --> 0:54:05.680 that sounds like good advice. Well, Hattie, I have learned 0:54:05.719 --> 0:54:08.400 an immense amount from our conversation here. I hope our 0:54:08.440 --> 0:54:10.680 listeners have as well. So I just want to thank 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:13.960 you ever so much for joining me and my listeners 0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:17.959 on Psychoactive to talk about IV game. Thank you very much, Ethan. 0:54:18.040 --> 0:54:19.960 It's been a pleasure, and thanks to all the listeners too. 0:54:25.440 --> 0:54:29.160 If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:31.680 or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts 0:54:31.800 --> 0:54:34.560 or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:38.040 from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments, 0:54:38.120 --> 0:54:42.800 and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three, three, seven, 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:49.040 seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or 0:54:49.200 --> 0:54:52.359 you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com 0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:55.719 or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You 0:54:55.800 --> 0:54:59.800 can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:03.360 is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:07.160 It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam 0:55:07.200 --> 0:55:11.240 Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, 0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:15.560 Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:18.520 Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and 0:55:18.680 --> 0:55:23.000 me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and 0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:26.800 a special thanks to Avi Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw 0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:41.440 and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with Ellen Scandlin, 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:45.600 host of the podcast How to Do the Pot, which 0:55:45.680 --> 0:55:49.880 focuses on women and cannabis. Every woman should have a 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:53.520 weed lube in her bedside table. Just every woman, So 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:57.000 cannabis lube. It's you know, just a serum and I 0:55:57.160 --> 0:56:00.239 highly highly recommend it um. This goes by back to 0:56:00.320 --> 0:56:04.359 the pelvic region and the endocannabinoid system and having more 0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:08.320 receptors and will not make you feel intoxicated, but it 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:11.640 will bring more blood flow to the area and that 0:56:11.880 --> 0:56:16.120 increases sensuality, increases touch and so the weed loobe just 0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:18.880 as a as a topical. I give it as to 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:22.080 friends as a gift a lot, and I highly highly 0:56:22.520 --> 0:56:26.120 recommend it. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it an't miss it.