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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're gonna

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Speaker 1: revisit the issue of I Begain. I begain the extraordinary

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Speaker 1: psychedelic substance from the emergence from the Aboga plant in Gabone.

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Speaker 1: We did talk about this about a year ago on

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Speaker 1: the episode with the Nitri Mugianis. But I wanted to

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Speaker 1: come back to this and I asked around who should

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Speaker 1: I have as a guest And the name that kept

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Speaker 1: popping up is Hattie Wells. Hattie lives in the UK.

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Speaker 1: She's been a psychedelic practitioner UM for many years. She's

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Speaker 1: an ethnobotanist. She's also been involved in drug policy reform.

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Speaker 1: She's got over twenty years experience researching and working with

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Speaker 1: psychedelic She's been an ib GAIN treatment provider in the

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Speaker 1: UK for several years now, and she's also working on

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Speaker 1: a couple of clinical trials, one involving I Began, the

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Speaker 1: other one about a drug called five M e O

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Speaker 1: d MT which we've not yet really gotten into on

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Speaker 1: psychoact yet. And she's worked for a TRANSFORM, which is

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Speaker 1: the UK based drug policy form organization, and for the

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Speaker 1: Beckley Foundation headed by Amanda Fielding, and also now working

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Speaker 1: for ice EARS, which is one of the leading organizations

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Speaker 1: in the world involved in re arch on psychedelics and advocacy.

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Speaker 1: It's been the host of the World Ayahuasca Congress, and

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Speaker 1: I guess I should finally say that she's a director

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Speaker 1: of the Breaking Convention, which is the UK's largest convention

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Speaker 1: on psycholic consciousness. So had do you. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me and my listeners today on Psychoactive.

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Speaker 1: Hi Ethan, thank you so much for inviting me. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: let's start off by just talking about the basics of

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Speaker 1: I be Gaine, and I'll be quite frank with our audience.

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Speaker 1: I've always been scared of iby Gain. I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: tried many of the psychedelics, even those that are reputation

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Speaker 1: for causing to throw up or things like that, But

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Speaker 1: but I began, you know, it just seems bigger and

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Speaker 1: batter and maybe more powerful in its therapeutic value. I

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Speaker 1: know that some people will do it at lower doses

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Speaker 1: for kind of self exploration and spiritual insight, but it's

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Speaker 1: most famous for its use in the treatment of addiction

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Speaker 1: and use at higher doses. What do we know among

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Speaker 1: the thousands or tens of thousands of reports of people

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Speaker 1: having done this, about the variety and commonality among experience

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Speaker 1: with with high dose I begain in terms of treating addiction. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So even it's interesting that you think of it as

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Speaker 1: the kind of bigger, badder psychedelic because actually, as far

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Speaker 1: as psychedelics go, it's a relatively benign and the agin

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Speaker 1: in terms of its um in terms of its strength

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Speaker 1: of kind of visionary experience. So the experience itself is

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Speaker 1: characterized by what people terms sort of waking dreams, internal visions,

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Speaker 1: but most of that is with eyes closed. So it's

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Speaker 1: actually quite easy to pull yourself out of it. And

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Speaker 1: you know, if you don't like what you're seeing. To

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Speaker 1: open your eyes and you know, you don't have the

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Speaker 1: kind of pronounced ego dissolution or dismemberment or typical sort

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Speaker 1: of peak or mystical experience that you might have on

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Speaker 1: other psychedelics. So in that respect, you know, it's perhaps

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Speaker 1: not as daunting as people have people tend to think

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Speaker 1: or have made out. But obviously the length of the experience,

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Speaker 1: you know, is is for most people somewhat daunting because

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Speaker 1: it does last, you know, depending on the dose you take.

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Speaker 1: But if we're talking about kind of flood dose or saturation,

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Speaker 1: does the higher end, which is anything really above twelve

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Speaker 1: milligrams peculogram to twenty milligrams peculiar gram that people don't

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Speaker 1: tend to go that high anymore, but that um that

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Speaker 1: can last anywhere from sort of twenty four thirty six

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Speaker 1: forty eight hours really, So that is the piece that

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, might make Ibergain seem somewhat daunting.

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Speaker 1: You are sort of immobilized, so you'll be lying down

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Speaker 1: on a bed for at least at least sort of

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Speaker 1: sixteen eighteen hours without moving, and you can't move, and

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Speaker 1: that that is definitely an intense experience, and many people purge,

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Speaker 1: many people do vomit it, but that's not you know,

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Speaker 1: that's not guaranteed. Some people don't. Some people will go

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Speaker 1: through without vomiting, without any kind of purging. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in terms of needing diapers, I don't, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: not something that's not something that I've experienced. Most people

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Speaker 1: can get up and walk to the toilet if they

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Speaker 1: need to go to the toilet, with a bit of assistance, obviously,

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Speaker 1: with a bit of assistance, because your balance is definitely affected.

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Speaker 1: Balance and movement is dramatically affected. So you might think

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Speaker 1: that you put your leg in one place, but actually

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Speaker 1: you're putting it in a different place. Your your whole

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Speaker 1: sense of where you're placing things changes dramatically. And then

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Speaker 1: I've heard it also described as like acid times a million.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is that bullshit? Or it really depends which

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Speaker 1: lens you're looking at it through. Well, that's what I

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Speaker 1: was trying to say earlier. You know, I would say

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's not anything that I've seen or experienced personally.

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Speaker 1: You know, acid, your visuals can be completely overwhelming to

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Speaker 1: the extent that you you know, especially high dose of

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Speaker 1: acid that you can't see anything in the room and

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Speaker 1: everything's melting. You would never get that kind of experience

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Speaker 1: on I Begain, you know, your typical eyebergain experience, although

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Speaker 1: this does probably only happen for half of people, but

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Speaker 1: you know, the experience we talk about is one of

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Speaker 1: a sort of vivid memory recall for the first six

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Speaker 1: to eight hours, a kind of life flashback, as if

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Speaker 1: you're watching your life, you know, on a movie screen

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Speaker 1: or a sort of movie reel, but you're watching it

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Speaker 1: from an objective point of view. You're not emotionally involved

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Speaker 1: or triggered by that experience. There is some sort of detachment,

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Speaker 1: whereas if you were experiencing those kind of visions on

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Speaker 1: LST or any other kind of classic psychedelic you would

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Speaker 1: be very emotionally involved in that living of those visuals.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the most common traits of the

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Speaker 1: hy doc Ibergin experience them sort of memory recall in

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Speaker 1: a kind of detect sort of way. Yeah, So the

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Speaker 1: high do cybergain experience tends to happen in sort of

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Speaker 1: three phases, So you'll have your first kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: six to ten hours, let's say, where it's that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing it's internal visions, waking dream They might be

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Speaker 1: thoughts or stories that are that are you know, depending

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Speaker 1: on how visually oriented you are. They may be visual,

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Speaker 1: they may not, They may just be thoughts. But it

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Speaker 1: can be kind of life flashback memory, recall, reliving events,

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Speaker 1: understanding the pattern of events, understanding why something happened the

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Speaker 1: way it did, and having some sense of um kind

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Speaker 1: of objectivity around it which helps, which can help you

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Speaker 1: to see things in a different way. That period can

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Speaker 1: also be accompanied by very vivid hallucinations, but that is

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Speaker 1: in the minority of people. So for myself personally, I

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Speaker 1: did have three D hallucinations more real than anything I've

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Speaker 1: had with any other psychedelic, but I am I am

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Speaker 1: in a real minority, like I don't know many other

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Speaker 1: people that have had that experience, but but it can happen.

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Speaker 1: You can have very vivid hallucinations, and then the next

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Speaker 1: phase is a is a period of deep introspection, and

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Speaker 1: that's the phase that I think gives I begin a

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Speaker 1: unique character, really sort of sets it apart from all

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Speaker 1: the other psychedelics that we're currently working with and researching.

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Speaker 1: And that after you've had this visual sort of peak experience,

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Speaker 1: you then have this long contemplative, introspective, reflective period where

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Speaker 1: you're definitely still under the effect. You know what, for me,

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Speaker 1: this period is the bit where you could engage in

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Speaker 1: more psycholitic therapy. I think we might get to that

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Speaker 1: point at some you know, in some stage where that

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Speaker 1: would be where interesting therapeutic discussions could take place. And

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Speaker 1: then you get another the third phase, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of the residual, where you're still you still might be

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Speaker 1: stimulated because obviously it's a stimulant and it's very hard

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Speaker 1: to sleep on ib again, so you might feel kind

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Speaker 1: of wired. And for people experiencing addiction or substance used

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Speaker 1: to sort of they that third phase tends to be

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Speaker 1: kind of jangly. They don't feel that great because it's

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Speaker 1: difficult to relax. But you know, that bat phase can

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Speaker 1: also be quite useful for introspection. Just to be a

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Speaker 1: but they're all a bit of a skeptic here, you know.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you hear this debate, like when people take I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's ayahuasca or some other psychedelic plants

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Speaker 1: substance in you know, from South America. The frequency of

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Speaker 1: seeing the jaguar, for example, and the question becomes, this

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Speaker 1: just happens spontaneously even among people have never heard of

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Speaker 1: the association of the psychedelic with the jaguar, or is

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Speaker 1: it somehow kind of implanted in the culture. And with

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Speaker 1: respect to this memory recall, I mean, people are obviously

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Speaker 1: told beforehand that this is what they might expect. Does

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Speaker 1: that precondition them, you think, to have this type of

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Speaker 1: detached kind of memory recall experience or is it something

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Speaker 1: just you know, even if people are not prepped to

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Speaker 1: know that that it's going to be happening anyway, It's

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Speaker 1: a very interesting question, and I think it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: determine because no one's really looked at that, although actually

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Speaker 1: I did here recently that there has been a study

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Speaker 1: with other psychedelics looking at that how how the prompts

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Speaker 1: before the experience affect the experience, and that they clearly do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you would imagine that if you're told X

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Speaker 1: and why is going to happen, that it's more likely

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Speaker 1: that X and why happens, right, And like I said earlier,

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Speaker 1: you know, this vivid memory recal doesn't happen with everybody.

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Speaker 1: But I think there's also distinction to be made between

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Speaker 1: people using this for addiction, you know, to interrupt their addiction,

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Speaker 1: or people using this for self development, spiritual purposes, curiosity,

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Speaker 1: because the experience differs quite you know, it's quite a

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Speaker 1: pronounced difference between those groups of people. And often, especially

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Speaker 1: if you're you know, you're an opioid user, the psychedelic

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Speaker 1: effects are somewhat blunted, you know, so the visual component

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Speaker 1: and that memory recal might be blunted. Mhm. And in

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Speaker 1: terms of I mean just speaking, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this has really been measured in studies as yet, but

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Speaker 1: you're a subjective experience. As a treatment provider. Does a

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Speaker 1: strong memory recall Does that associate with better outcomes for

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Speaker 1: people in terms of dealing with their addiction issues? Or

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Speaker 1: can people have just as good outcomes with just as

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Speaker 1: great frequency if they don't go through the memory recall element. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so in my experience, I would say that it does.

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Speaker 1: You know that that what I was kind of describing

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Speaker 1: as the archetypal trip, the memory recall, the introspection. You know,

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Speaker 1: those three phases um tended to the stronger, the sort

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Speaker 1: of visionary experience tended to have better long term effects.

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Speaker 1: But you know that's just in my observation of maybe

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Speaker 1: sixty seventy people that I facilitated sessions for and I'm

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Speaker 1: not aware of it. You know, no one's actually looked

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Speaker 1: at that properly because there's obviously a lack of clinical studies,

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Speaker 1: right right, And so I'm just I mean, I imagine

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Speaker 1: among our listeners just going to be some who are

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Speaker 1: curious about whether or not they should take it, either

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Speaker 1: for spiritual insight or for a dealing with addiction. I

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Speaker 1: imagine there's even more who have a friend or real

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Speaker 1: NATIV who's struggling with addiction and they want to know

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Speaker 1: if this might be helpful, And a lot of others

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Speaker 1: are just curious about, you know, how this is similar

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Speaker 1: different to the other ones. So just to kind of

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Speaker 1: take us through some of the process and maybe in

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Speaker 1: terms of the treatments that you've provided, Um, what's the product?

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, how do people you know,

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Speaker 1: you know come into contact with you? And then what

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Speaker 1: sorts of clearance do you have to do so that

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Speaker 1: some people are probably told that they're not eligible to

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Speaker 1: do this, and then how is it consumed the setting?

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Speaker 1: Just walk us through all that, Okay, so let's just

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Speaker 1: be clear. So I'm not providing ibergaine treatments in an

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Speaker 1: informal way anymore. I'm just working on a clinical trial.

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Speaker 1: So you know, there's there's various routes you can take

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Speaker 1: to experiencing iyebergaine, So there would obviously be the clinical

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Speaker 1: trial angle, but there's only a couple of countries where

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Speaker 1: that's happening, so that's fairly limited at the moment. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely usual to find an eyebgain provider where there

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Speaker 1: is some sort of medical supervision or assistance because i

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Speaker 1: begain does have cardiac implications and there are risks associated,

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Speaker 1: so it's really important that you're with a provider who

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Speaker 1: understands those risks and who can manage them should they

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Speaker 1: occur um because there's you know, there's there's over a

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Speaker 1: hundred clinics around the world, and some of them are

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Speaker 1: medically supervised and some are not, and then there's probably

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Speaker 1: tens more of just individuals offering treatments in an informal way.

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Speaker 1: So it's really important to be clear about the cardiac

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Speaker 1: risks and so that you go in informed about them

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Speaker 1: and looking for an appropriate practitioner. But let's say your

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Speaker 1: practitioner is informed about this has medical supervision is going

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Speaker 1: to monitor your vital science, is going to insist that

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Speaker 1: you have an ECG prior to the experience. Um, I

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Speaker 1: mean preferably that you're monitored with an ECG throughout the experience.

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Speaker 1: But that's quite rare these days, but I would definitely

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Speaker 1: recommend looking for that. So you want to check your heart,

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Speaker 1: and you want to check your liver function really, and

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Speaker 1: you want to check your electrolyte balance. So they're the

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Speaker 1: kind of main safety sort of checks. And what's the

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Speaker 1: importance of the liver function one? Well, just you know,

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Speaker 1: to see how your liver is functioning, because obviously your

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Speaker 1: liver function will determine how you metabolize the drug, and

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Speaker 1: poor metabolizes, you know, then there's an extra risk of

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Speaker 1: spike levels of of I beginning or I begin having

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Speaker 1: a greater effect on your heart. Really, so you want

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Speaker 1: to be carefully mentioned nor I begin So maybe we

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Speaker 1: should just interject your Is that what I begain becomes

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Speaker 1: in the body once it's consumed or is it? Ye? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I begain it's converted to nor I begain. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's metabolite, but it lasts much longer in the

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Speaker 1: body and levels of both of them have different implications

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Speaker 1: on cardiac risks UM, so you need to get checked out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, ideally you wouldn't have a history of cardiac

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Speaker 1: problems in your family. UM, you would you know, not

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Speaker 1: have a history of any psychosis. You wouldn't want to

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Speaker 1: be well. Again, different providers are different with this, but

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Speaker 1: there's certain medications that you'd want to avoid taking. So

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Speaker 1: if you were on them, you'd need to taper off

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Speaker 1: them and have some assistance tapering off them because some

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Speaker 1: drugs will interact negatively with ibergaine. But when you say

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Speaker 1: about interactions, is it like with SR eyes where I

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Speaker 1: think with Ayahuaska you're not supposed to be You're not

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Speaker 1: supposed to be using that. What can you say? So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: S s R E s Ideally, I mean like if

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Speaker 1: I was working, I would want people to come off

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Speaker 1: their S S R eyes. The risk of I begin with,

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Speaker 1: for your heart is that it can cause something called

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Speaker 1: QT prolongation, which is basically elongating the wave between your

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Speaker 1: queue and your tea waves on your e c G.

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Speaker 1: And that's really about heart contracting and relax xing. So

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Speaker 1: it can lead to kind of an abnormal heart rhythm,

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Speaker 1: which can lead to a fatality. So if you're on

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Speaker 1: any other drug that is also prolonging your QT intervals,

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Speaker 1: then you would want to you would want to come

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Speaker 1: off them because that plus the iber gains prolongation could

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Speaker 1: cause a significant risk. You just want to eliminate that risk.

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Speaker 1: So there's a variety of drugs, antihistamines, antipsychotics, antidepressants. Some

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Speaker 1: providers will work with with people on those drugs, but

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Speaker 1: taking all the right precautions like monitoring on any CG

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Speaker 1: the whole way through UM, you know, having assistance at

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Speaker 1: hand should there be any problems. But that's why you

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Speaker 1: need the medical supervision really. And then so aside the

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Speaker 1: kind of medical exclusion, you know, various reasons for medic

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Speaker 1: for exclusion. You would also want to do some significant

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Speaker 1: preparation and just to get yourself well informed about iber

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Speaker 1: gain and the risks you would be taking and the

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Speaker 1: potential experience you would be having. So any provider would

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Speaker 1: would do some psych education, which is just giving you

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Speaker 1: all that information beforehand, and then you know, ideally and

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Speaker 1: maybe have two or three prep sessions. You'd get to

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Speaker 1: know your provider. You'd want to you'd want to establish

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Speaker 1: really good rapport. You'd need to feel safe with that

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Speaker 1: person because they're obviously going to be holding space for

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Speaker 1: you during a long and potentially intense experience, and then

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Speaker 1: ensure that they will also offer you some integration after

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Speaker 1: the experience, because you know, this is something that we're

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Speaker 1: all talking about in psychedelic therapy. The need for integration

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Speaker 1: um not only to be able to integrate a potentially

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Speaker 1: difficult experience, but also to harvest the lessons and insights

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Speaker 1: that you get from from you know, less challenging experience,

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Speaker 1: just to help you kind of land again and move

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Speaker 1: forward with the insights that you've got. We haven't really

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Speaker 1: honed a kind of standard method, and everyone has their

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Speaker 1: own way of doing this, but I think it's really important.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons that I sort of

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Speaker 1: stepped away from I began treatment years ago was the

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Speaker 1: fact that people would come and have this very profound experience,

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Speaker 1: but if there hadn't been enough preparation or integration, which

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Speaker 1: often is a cost issue people just simply can't afford it.

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Speaker 1: Then you know that I bega intense to unearth various

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Speaker 1: issues in your life that you've been struggling with and

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Speaker 1: if you go back into your same environment, then you're

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Speaker 1: walking back in and you know you're going to experience

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Speaker 1: various various triggers again. And if there isn't the appropriate integration,

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Speaker 1: you're very likely to just sort of fall back into

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Speaker 1: old patterns, and that may be addiction. If you've come

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Speaker 1: for addiction interruption. We'll be talking more after we hear

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Speaker 1: this add It's not just about the immediate, you know,

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Speaker 1: coming down from the day after. What we're really talking

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Speaker 1: about for many people sustained period of time, like going

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Speaker 1: to see a psychotherapist or saying like that you're on

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Speaker 1: a weekly basis or a monthly basis, or you know,

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Speaker 1: checking in leading up to it. Then in terms of uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean people are obviously using ib gain for a

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Speaker 1: variety of addictions, as the opioid one, which I think

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Speaker 1: is the one that's most known for, but also alcohol

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Speaker 1: or stimulants, cocaine, maybe the nicotine. What's the recommendation in

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Speaker 1: terms of abstaining from any of those drugs before the

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Speaker 1: i BE GAIN treatment for how long, how necessary it is,

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Speaker 1: how much does it vary whether it's a stimulant or

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Speaker 1: an opioid for example. I mean, so again this varies

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Speaker 1: from treatment provider to treatment provider, and some people are

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Speaker 1: much bolder and more allowing of continuing your drug of choice.

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Speaker 1: And it also depends on whether you're going for a

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Speaker 1: flood dose or a slow dose protocol. But let's kind

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Speaker 1: of maybe the easiest way of explaining it would be

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Speaker 1: to take, you know, to take some examples, so you know,

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Speaker 1: you would basically look at the half life of your

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Speaker 1: drug of choice and you would want to give at

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Speaker 1: least that time period before you take the IEB again.

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Speaker 1: Ideally you'd want to leave twenty four hours really from

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Speaker 1: your last dose to your eye again. Now, in terms

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Speaker 1: of alcohol, actually I never worked with anyone with an

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Speaker 1: alcohol disorder, and I know that withdrawal from alcohol is

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Speaker 1: a lot more dangerous and it presents with a lot

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Speaker 1: more issues. And I because I've not done a protocol

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Speaker 1: with alcohol, I couldn't I couldn't really speak to that.

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Speaker 1: So let's just eliminate alcohol from this discussion and just

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Speaker 1: talk about um opioids or stimulants. And with the opioids,

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Speaker 1: is I mean that people are already if it's methanine

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Speaker 1: or or heroin, that they're actually in some state of withdrawal.

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Speaker 1: Often times by the time they take Yeah, so that's

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Speaker 1: what happens. When they come to take the eye again,

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Speaker 1: they will the withdrawal symptoms will probably just be presenting.

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Speaker 1: So the protocol that I used um withdrawal would just

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Speaker 1: be presenting. I would then administer a testos which is

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Speaker 1: like one to two milligrams of iber gain, and then

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Speaker 1: that would that would sort of take the edge of

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Speaker 1: the withdrawal and it would show us, you know, how

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Speaker 1: the person responded to the iber gain, and then we

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Speaker 1: would then do the flood dose after that, so effectively

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Speaker 1: you don't really enter the withdrawal period. You're just sort

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Speaker 1: of skirting on the edge of it. M hm hm. Now,

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Speaker 1: I guess the thing that's really maybe most astounding about

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Speaker 1: I be Gain, apart from this kind of detached sort

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Speaker 1: of memory recall, is the fact that it seems to

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Speaker 1: alleviate or even disappear the withdrawal symptoms that once so

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Speaker 1: oftentimes associates with opioid withdrawal. And that's that does not

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Speaker 1: seem to be true of any of the other psychedelics

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Speaker 1: that are being used in addiction treatment. And so do

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Speaker 1: we have any understanding as yet about what I mean,

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Speaker 1: what that's about, What do we know about that, you know,

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Speaker 1: interruption of the withdrawal. Well, that's kind of the most

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Speaker 1: astounding thing about iber gain really, and that is how

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's how we discovered ibor gaine's anti addiction

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Speaker 1: sort of potential was because Howard lots of in the

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Speaker 1: sixties um decided to take iber gain in an experimental

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Speaker 1: way with various friends as a psychedelic experience, and he

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Speaker 1: happened to be a heroin user, and he realized after

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Speaker 1: you know, he came down from his iber gain trip

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Speaker 1: that he hadn't experienced withdrawal and he no longer had

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Speaker 1: any withdrawal symptoms. And there were seven heroin users among

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Speaker 1: his twenty friends who were experimenting with it, and they

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Speaker 1: all experienced the same thing. So there definitely is something

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Speaker 1: to ib again whereby it dramatically reduces withdrawal symptoms, if

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Speaker 1: not eliminates them. And in terms of you know, how

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Speaker 1: that happens, why that happens, we're still not entirely clear.

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Speaker 1: The pharmacology of ibergaine is still you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: bit blurry. We've got some idea years of of how

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Speaker 1: it works and the various neuro transmitter sites that it targets.

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Speaker 1: But I think as for actually explaining how it stops withdrawal,

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Speaker 1: I think we're still somewhat in the dark mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: But it's pretty well documented now right across thousands of

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Speaker 1: people having this almost miraculous absence of I mean, for

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Speaker 1: people have been addicted to opioids for many years. People

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Speaker 1: aren't herowing people wanting to you know, who have been

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Speaker 1: on methodine for a long time and wanted getting off it.

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Speaker 1: It's um, I mean, it's it's basically it happens for

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Speaker 1: everybody or almost everybody this this. Uh yeah, I would say,

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Speaker 1: I would say, I mean, in my own experience, probably

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Speaker 1: for kind of eighty of people there. You know, there

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Speaker 1: are a small number especially methodone users. Actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: long term methodone uses may experience still some withdrawal symptoms,

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Speaker 1: but they're dramatically reduced. Yeah. Well, actually, maybe this is

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Speaker 1: a good place to bring up the study that you're

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Speaker 1: engaged in with icere is right now, right, which is

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Speaker 1: about you know, kind of innovative approach to try and

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Speaker 1: to help people who want to get off method I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously for many people or our method and it can

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Speaker 1: be a lifelong medication. It can be very successful, but

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Speaker 1: there are many people, for one reason or another, who

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Speaker 1: do want to get off it. What can you say

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00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: about that study that you're currently engaged in. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: I'm not actually currently engaged with the i as methodone study.

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Speaker 1: I have done some consultancy with I See is, but

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Speaker 1: I'm actually working with the Demo rex I Begin study,

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Speaker 1: which will be working with opioid us as well. We're

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Speaker 1: still in the healthy volunteer phase, but I can I

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Speaker 1: can definitely discussed the ICE study a bit. Although they

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Speaker 1: haven't published their results yet, they've got twenty methodone users

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Speaker 1: and they are using a slow dose protocol, which is

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Speaker 1: just worth talking about now because there's I think I've

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00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: mainly been talking about this sort of flood saturation dose,

428
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: which is what I worked with, you know, almost twenty

429
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: years ago, but now people are are moving away from

430
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: that because of the cardiac implications and because of the

431
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: deaths that have occurred. There is a move, I would say,

432
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: towards this slower dose protocol, which is using I begain

433
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: in a way to kind of taper down your opioid use.

434
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 1: So the I See his study I think gives six doses.

435
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: It split the group into two groups, and each group

436
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: receives a dose of iber gain one that one group

437
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: gets six doses of a hundred milligrams and the other

438
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: gets an ascending dose, so hundred milligrams then two hundred,

439
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: three hundred, six eight hundred. I can't remember how it goes,

440
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: but they have six doses of an escalating dose, and

441
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: with each of those doses, they reduce their methodone use

442
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: by half, so they're effectively tapering down their methodone and

443
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: also being administered I began at the same time, which

444
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: you know, supposedly will eliminate the withdrawal symptoms and sort

445
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: of flood the system over a number of days with

446
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: iber gain instead of that immediate flood dose, which potentially

447
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: has more risks. Mhm. And these are generally people have

448
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: been fairly stabilized our method on when yeah, yeah, they've

449
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: been on a method and program and I think, you know,

450
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: I think I can say they haven't had yeah, they

451
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: haven't had any adverse events yet, no hospitalized, but no

452
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: serious adverse events in the hospitalization yet. So and I

453
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: hear they have very promising results, but it's not published yet. Okay,

454
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: and what about the study that you're engaged in the UK.

455
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: So this is a single dose study. Um it's a

456
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: Phase one and Phase two A studies, So it's currently

457
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: unhealthy volunteers and there's four cohorts. So each group will

458
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: receive first group three milligrams, next group the three milligrams peculogram,

459
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: next group six milligrams pekulogram, next group nine milligrams pekulogram,

460
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: and if all of them have been safe and tolerated,

461
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: then it'll move up to twelve milligrams pekulogram, which is

462
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: ki of the target dose of a number of clinics

463
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: around the world. So we're looking at the tolerable tolerability

464
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: really and the safety. And there's a lot of um

465
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 1: ACG monitoring and looking at the QT intervals throughout the

466
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: experience to see you see pro kilogram you mean of

467
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: their own body weight. So in other words, the assumption

468
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: is that there's reason to believe that the dose should

469
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: be a reflection of somebody's body weight. Yes, exactly, Why

470
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: is that? Well, because I mean, I guess with lots

471
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: of mental health drugs, psychiatric drugs, they do that they

472
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: dose according to body weight because each person will will

473
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: respond in a different way according to a body weight.

474
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: I know with the other classic psychedelics they don't do

475
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: that so much, but I think um with lots of

476
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: psychiatric drugs they do m So Phase two will then

477
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: move on to we'll look at the best the sort

478
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: of maximum tolerated dose and the sort of ideal target dose,

479
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: and then move on to phase two offering that dose

480
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: to opioid dependent individuals and then assess again safety, toleer ability,

481
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: and efficacy. So this this first co this first study.

482
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: Phase one is thirty participants and then hopefully they'll be

483
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: eighty participants among opioid users. So this is really the

484
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: first well, I mean there's obviously the i c IS

485
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: study going on, but this is, yeah, this is one

486
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: of the first Phase one and phase two going together,

487
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: and especially doing all the card monitoring, which is really

488
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: crucial I think to getting ibergain licensed. So now let's

489
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: go to this world of the clinics. I think you

490
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: mentioned the beginning that there's maybe over a hundred that

491
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: we know about around the world. I mean they seem

492
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: to show up a lot, I think in Mexico and

493
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: it's a Costa Rica and sometimes the Caribbean. Um, but

494
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: I guess they've also been in the UK and the Netherlands, Canada, etcetera. Um,

495
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: what do we know about this network? I mean, are

496
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: there are there chains? Off? I begin, clinics where one

497
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: person or owner owns a whole bunch of them in

498
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: different places. Uh. Does anybody have a kind of list?

499
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: Is there a directory of these clinics anywhere? Uh? Does?

500
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: Some of them have fantastic reputations, have been around for

501
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: many years? What can you tell us? Yeah, I've never

502
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: heard about a directory, but that's not a bad idea. Um.

503
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: And I've not heard of chains either, But it's possible

504
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 1: that there maybe you know, a clinic and I think

505
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: I might have heard that there's you know, some business

506
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: that has a couple of clinics in Mexico. But there's Yeah,

507
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 1: there's not chains yet. I mean Universal Eye again, I

508
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: think is attempting to do that. So they're working in

509
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,719
Speaker 1: Canada and they will be conducting clinical trials in Canada.

510
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: But that is their idea is to create sort of

511
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: medicalized clinical model and have clinics around the world. So

512
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: at the moment, it's more individual clinics with a sort

513
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: of cl Susta in Mexico, Costa Rica. Like you said,

514
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: more informal treatment providers around Europe, not so much clinics.

515
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: There's a clinic in Portugal Tabularrassa UM, and then there's

516
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: obviously individual providers as well in Mexico and Canada. There's

517
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: also clinics in Canada and South Africa and Brazil. So

518
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: in Brazil and Canada and South Africa and New Zealand.

519
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Actually I begains been put on the kind of prescription

520
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: drug list, which means doctors can prescribe it, so it

521
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: can Yeah, it can be prescribed in a clinic, so

522
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: there are obviously that's an easier legal situation for clinics

523
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: to develop in. And then in Mexico there are a

524
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: number of clinics and they get licensed as rehab clinics.

525
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: Really not licensed for I begain news because I begins

526
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: not a licensed medicine in Mexico. But um, it's not regulated.

527
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: So there are places where like government, some kind of

528
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: regulatory officials are actually checking up on these things or

529
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: where they need to look at the whole protocol and

530
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: give their approval. Yeah, and they're definitely the authorities, local

531
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: authorities are aware of what the clinics are doing in

532
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: these places. And these are all either places whether they're

533
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: on the prescription drug list or where it's unregulated. It's

534
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: not scheduled drugs. Obviously, in the US I began as

535
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: a Schedule one drug. No one would get away of

536
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: doing anything like that there. In the UK we have

537
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: the Psychoactive Substance Act, which means that it's legal. It

538
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: would be legal to consume um ibergain or a boger,

539
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: but not legal to administer. So clinics are definitely not

540
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: legal in the UK. And there's no clinics up and

541
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: running here. Um. And then you know Holland, there's a

542
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: gray area, so shops openly selling iboga and iboga extracts

543
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: and providers working. Yeah, So there's and and then there's

544
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: other countries in Europe where it's banned like in the

545
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: United States, Um, Italy, France, New Zealand. I saw pop up.

546
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: Is it legal in New zeal End? Did anything happening there? Well,

547
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: so that's the same New Zealand. I think I just included,

548
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: but maybe I didn't. New Zealand is the same as

549
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: prescription drugs, so you can, yeah, you can legally prescribe.

550
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: I began in New Zealand, and there are some clinics there.

551
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: There are a couple of clinics there that I know of.

552
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: There maybe more. And in terms of the International Drug

553
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: Control system, which has banned some of the psychedelics, whereas

554
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: I begin in that, so it's not it's not a

555
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: scheduled drug in the UN conventions, so that eases things up,

556
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: I see, well, but in in individual countries it is,

557
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: so it doesn't necessarily use it up. Yeah, right right,

558
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: depends it depends where you are. I see, and and um.

559
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: And then the Caribbean I saw, in fact, I know

560
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: the son of a friend of mine had a successful

561
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: I began treatment in the Caribbean. Is it just is

562
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: it a bunch of different islands or is the same

563
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: kits or so? Debramash had a clinic and KITS so

564
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: that that was running for a number of years, and

565
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: she published a paper on on the detoxification opioid detoxif

566
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: occasional two seventy seven participants I think, and had had

567
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: remarkable results. So she's that that's the kind of longest

568
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: standing I began clinic license in a way explain to

569
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: our to our listeners who are the significance of doctor

570
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: Debora Mash in all this. So Debra match is there

571
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: is a neuroscientist who has been involved in, you know,

572
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: trying to develop ibergain as a treatment for addiction for years,

573
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: six years, and she's currently running the study that I'm

574
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: working on in London. She managed to get neider back

575
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: in the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the States

576
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: get Neider backing for phase one studies in ninety four

577
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: I think in in the United States and they administered

578
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: I think up to two milligrams pekilogram and the study

579
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: round for a short while and then terminated. And she

580
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: then set up her clinic in St. Kitts and carried

581
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: on treating people and doing lots of research on ibergaine

582
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: and has really never you know, she's really kind of

583
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: never given up bringing this to market and ensuring access

584
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: for addicts to this treatment. I met Deborah Mash I

585
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: think twenty five years ago when I was lobbying and

586
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: trying to raise awareness of iber gaine in the UK,

587
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: and we invited her over and took her to lecture

588
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: at various places, trying to sort of open the ears

589
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: and eyes of various addiction agencies to the potential of

590
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: iber gaine and various research operations. But you know, we

591
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: didn't get anywhere. And I think it's been a really long,

592
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: hard fight. Let's take a break here and go to

593
00:34:53,200 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: an add Most of my encounter with I Begain was

594
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: really beginning in the early nineties from the activist side.

595
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned earlier Howard lots Off, you know,

596
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: and Howard's you know experiences a nineteen year old realizing

597
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: that I Begain had eliminated the withdrawal symptoms for him

598
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: and other friends associated with the heroin addiction. And in fact,

599
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: I think in recognition of his work, my organization Drug

600
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Policy Alliance awarded him a big award Charlie before he

601
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: died some years ago. But then it was also the

602
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: the yippie activist Dana Beale. It was the Israeli fellow

603
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: of BoA's Lochtell, who's you know, then starts the Israeli

604
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: Greenleaf Party to try to legalize marijuana, but he was

605
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: administering lots of treatments. And Bob Cisco, another activist who

606
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: in fact just died recently. I just was at his

607
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: memorial service in New York a few months ago. But

608
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: this set of activists, you know, what was their role

609
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 1: in all and how much were they joined by others

610
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: around the world. Well, so we really wouldn't know about

611
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: the potential therapeutic potential of iber Game for addiction if

612
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for Howard and

613
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: normal really you know, trying to spread the word and

614
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: raise awareness because of their own experience, but then because

615
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: of the experience of others that they administered I be

616
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: gain too, or that they you know, showed other addicts

617
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: how to help other addicts, and this kind of addict

618
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: self help movement grew, and Bob Sisko obviously started up

619
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: Eye Cash, the International Coalition Addict Self Help I think

620
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: that's right, which was really based in the Netherlands, So

621
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: there was a kind of connection between New York and

622
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: the Netherlands, Rotterdam specifically. I think this laye network of

623
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: people addicts helping addicts really and you know subculture of

624
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: iber gain treatment providers, people who had gone through it

625
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: themselves and helping other people and so forth. And you know,

626
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: they organized conferences, they lobbied government bodies, um Howard lots

627
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: of obviously took out a series of patents in the

628
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: mid eighties, and you know, managed to have conversations with Neida.

629
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: I think it was you know, his meeting with Debora

630
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: that that helped kick stock Debra's interest and Deborah's movement

631
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: with Ibergine. So really, this, this whole kind of movement

632
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: is all thanks to them, and they really deserve to

633
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: be massively honored. You know, this area of the for

634
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: profit companies which are all you know, there's now obviously many,

635
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: many of them, and they're funding university research centers. And

636
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: I've read that a TIE, which may be the most

637
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: well financed of all of the investors, is looking at

638
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: this and that Mine Mead has also been taking a

639
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: look all I think they're looking at a synthetic derivative

640
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: of I beginning called AT and m C. I know

641
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: of some others. But is that where the funding and

642
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,959
Speaker 1: the push is coming from now, and what's your thoughts

643
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: about all that? Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely where the push

644
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: is coming from obviously. Yeah, you've got Demorex and a

645
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: TIE they've collaborating on the study in the UK, and

646
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: you've got I'm not quite sure who's funding the studies

647
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 1: in Brazil. Actually but yeah, it's it's private money coming

648
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's corporate money coming in and really mobilizing

649
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: these studies and providing the kind of money that's needed

650
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: to take these compounds further. I think and obviously I

651
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: begain can I mean, I mean, Howard lots of years ago,

652
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: decades ago, had these patents about the use of I

653
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: began for treatment. Those have now expired, So I imagine

654
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: and I began itself cannot be patented I measure at

655
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: this time. So at this point, is it about you know,

656
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: trying to get patents on the derivatives or on we

657
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: talked about before, nor I begain, you know, the basic

658
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: substances it comes when it was human body. Yeah, there's

659
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: an or I begain, there's derivatives, there's there's treatment protocols

660
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: that will probably be technology associated with the treatment that

661
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: will be patented. Um. Hey, I'm also full disclosure here.

662
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: Um there's another new startup, UM a company called I

663
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: Bogus scene. I had Boas Wachtel was in New York

664
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: visiting me and he said he's and I'm starting this company. Uh,

665
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: you know, you want to be in the advisory boarder.

666
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: And I said, well, I guess, so it sounds interesting.

667
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: So that thing is just look at you know, launching

668
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: now I I bogus scene. But was they're going to

669
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: be looking at, I think is less focused on addiction

670
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: treatment and looking at treatment of other things. You know,

671
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: their their materials say that they want to look at

672
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: the using I begaine for dealing with things like gastro

673
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: intestinal stuff and autoimmune disease and sleep disorders and maybe cancer,

674
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: neurogenitive diseases. And I've heard it talked about visavi Parkinson's

675
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: as well. So what do you know about the value

676
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: or potential value of I began for treating not just addiction,

677
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: but there are types of mental conditions or even these

678
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: physical ones. Yes, I did talk to Boas actually and

679
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 1: I did. I am aware of iboga seen and it's

680
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, obviously my background's ethnobotany. So it's very interesting

681
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: because this is really ethno medicine that they're taking forward,

682
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: looking at the traditional use of a boga in its

683
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: traditional context in Gobon and medicinal uses they have for

684
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: it there, which are this gastro intestinal um issues and

685
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: the other ones you mentioned. So I think among treatment providers,

686
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 1: you know, there's been all sorts of anecdotal reports about

687
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: the immune boosting effects, you know, even dare I say it,

688
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: You know, people are speculating about its potential in low

689
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: doses again, in sort of micro doses for COVID and

690
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: respiratory conditions. So I think, I think this is kind

691
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: of a nascent field, and I'm sure people will start

692
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: looking at different applications of it, And personally, I've been

693
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: very interested in its potential application for Parkinson's. In fact,

694
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: that's kind of what got me back into ibergain after

695
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: after a long break from it, because I kind of had,

696
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,959
Speaker 1: you know, put down the addiction, not thinking it wasn't

697
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: really moving and it wasn't going to get anywhere, and

698
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: also my life kind of changed and addiction didn't seem

699
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: so you know, sort of present and relevant to me,

700
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: and things were kind of stalled in terms of research.

701
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: And then I got invited to one of these conferences

702
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 1: by Dana in two thousand and seventeen, and I watched

703
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: a man give a presentation on having taken micro doses

704
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: of very low doses of iber game for his Parkinson's

705
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: and having had remarkable results really in attenuation of symptoms.

706
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: And you know, at that time my mother got diagnosed

707
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: with Alzheimer's and my stepfather a year later. So I've

708
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: been very sort of focused on neurodegenerative conditions and the

709
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: potential applications and psychedelics in this area, and I'm watching

710
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: very keenly. In fact, when I was working out there

711
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: Beckley Foundation, I was really trying to encourage interest in that. Now,

712
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: how do you mentioned earlier that you know your life

713
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 1: had changed visa the diction and that was in part

714
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: why you're looking in some of these other uses for you?

715
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: Was the initial entry into I Begaine as somebody like

716
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: Howard Lotsof who used it and found it transformative? Or

717
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: did it come about our other ways? Well? So I

718
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: I first heard about ibergain I guess in this sort

719
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: of mid nineties, but it wasn't until the late nineties

720
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: that I got more directly involved. And that was actually

721
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: sort of coincidentally. I just got asked to organize a

722
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 1: series of conferences on I Begain. I had been involved

723
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: myself with Aowaska. Was much more interested in Ayawaska as

724
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: a psychedelic. I had spent several years of researching it

725
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 1: as an anthropology student and participating in rituals and experimenting

726
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: with it, and I had found that had really pulled

727
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: me out of my UM. I did to kind of

728
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: patterns and tendencies so I had had during my teenage

729
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: years and kind of early adulthood, consumed a lot of drugs,

730
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: been very involved in the drug scene. I'd gone into

731
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: it with Aawaska and I've done my work so to

732
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: beat with arahuaska to resolve a cocaine and I had

733
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: a kind of cocaine and alcohol habit. But I had

734
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: witnessed lots of my friends O D. I had lost

735
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: several friends from addiction, so addiction was very sort of

736
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: prevalent in my life. I'd also had lots of friends

737
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: UM have psychotic episodes from various drugs. And so when

738
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: I heard about IB again, even though I no longer

739
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: you know, was in the kind of midst of any addiction,

740
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: substance addiction, UM, I was obviously very interested in how

741
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: it could help my friends and how it could help

742
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: those around me. When I did take it personally, I

743
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: was addicted to tobacco still and it did help me

744
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: UM quit my tobacco addiction. But I have to preface

745
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: this with you lasted for a year, so I had

746
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: I had a good twelve months with no tobacco, and

747
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: then I relapsed. Um, and then I carried on smoking

748
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: for another I don't know how many years, but then

749
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: managed to stop, you know, probably what they used to

750
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: other psychedelics. When you think about, you know, compare and

751
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: contrast how they're similar, how they're different. Between ayahuasca and

752
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: I bow that I began. Um what stands out for

753
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: you first in terms of talking about the experience itself. Um,

754
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: So the experience itself, I think, you know, they're very distinct.

755
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: Obviously I began as much much longer lasting, and like

756
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: I said earlier, you know, characterized by this more sort

757
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: of memory we called dreamlike visions, whereas ayahuaska, you know,

758
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: especially it's sort of strong doses and kind of peak

759
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: experience can be much more about ego dissolution and um,

760
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: you know, liquefying consciousness, connection with everything around you, oneness

761
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: are to change in your sense of appropriate reception, where

762
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: your body ends and begins, where you end and begin. Um.

763
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 1: So there's that, there's definitely that difference. You don't have

764
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: that going on with the ibergaine. M hmm. Let's see

765
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 1: an in terms of iowaska has also typically done in

766
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: a kind of group setting, whereas i begaine is almost

767
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: entirely done in a solo setting. Right, Yeah, that's a

768
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: massive difference. Yes, so iowaska is usually done, although some

769
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: people do do one on one aowaska sessions, but it

770
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: is usually done in a group setting in a more

771
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: kind of ceremonial setting, although again it boga depending on

772
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: whether you take ibergain or a boga, there is a

773
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: very elaborate at boga ritual ceremony, group ceremony if you're

774
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: following more the tradition of the buety that is again

775
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: a community, communal experience, many people, a lot of music, dancing, contact,

776
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: you know. Then then then it's so if you go

777
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 1: to the traditional use of a boga, it's more similar

778
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: I suppose to the iowaska apart from the fact that

779
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: it is used as an initiative, you know, traditionally as

780
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 1: an initiation ritual in high doses or in low doses,

781
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, more for the kind of ceremony, prayer, prayers,

782
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: not all night vituals that they do as part of

783
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: their religion. Yeah, I think I got we got into

784
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: this a bit on the episode with Dmitry last year,

785
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: because he actually did go to Gabon and was initiated

786
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: into the wheety. And I think, you know, when we

787
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: were talking earlier, Hetty about the uses for things other

788
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: than addiction, right, I think a fair bit of the

789
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: awareness of that comes from what was happening with the

790
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: wheaty and their use of iboga. Is that right? Yes, definitely,

791
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: so Boger has used you know, like I said, like

792
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: in large doses for initiation, contact with the ancestors, spiritual guidance, healing,

793
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: but in low doses it's used, yeah, for a variety

794
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: of illnesses as an ethnic medicine, you know, as a

795
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: medicinal herb, you know. I mean. One of the other

796
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: issues that keeps emerging more and more now, right is

797
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: what are the rights and responsibilities towards indigenous peoples, whether

798
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: it's with ayahuasca coming from the Amazon regional Latin America,

799
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: whether it's with peyote, and of course with eboga and

800
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: the Boti. And there is this Nagoya Protocol, I guess,

801
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: the sort of international treaty that many nations are signing

802
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: on to UM. But what can you tell us about

803
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: that vise the eboga and how it compares to what's

804
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: going on with the the other substances. You know, with

805
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: this whole issue of kind of indigenous intellectual property rights, UM,

806
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: it's in a way sort of easier to pinpoint with

807
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: the boga and Equatorial Africa. You know, there's a long

808
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: tradition of use, we know the various groups that use it.

809
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: So this idea of kind of benefits sharing should theoretically

810
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: be more straightforward, although there's no sort of Um, there

811
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 1: are no homogeneous indigenous groups, and there are various groups

812
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: using in different ways, and so how you would coordinate

813
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: that benefit sharing is going to be somewhat complicated. I'm sure. Um.

814
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: There is a group already operating Blessings of the Forest,

815
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: headed up by someone called you Non, and they are

816
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: trying to ensure benefits sharing and the sustainability of a

817
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: boger because obviously, you know it burger is a valuable

818
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: natural product in Gabon, and there's a lot of poaching

819
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: and wild harvesting of a boger and if there's growing

820
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: demand around the world, this is you know, the issue

821
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: of sustainability is only going to grow, and so the

822
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: Blessings of the forest are very much um interested in

823
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: setting up sustainable plantations and working with people to ensure

824
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: sustainability and to ensure that um. You know, there's no

825
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: illegal export of it Boger out the country, you can't.

826
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean, actually it Boger is a national cultural heritage

827
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: in Gabon, so it easily eagle to export it. But

828
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: there's you know, there's various ways around. That's very interesting,

829
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: you know you mentioned earlier, just to switch again, micro docing.

830
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: I mean, this has become such a phenomenon, So what

831
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 1: is the story. I mean, there's obviously micro docing, there's

832
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: many dozing, there's what you call the flood dozing or

833
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, macro dosing. Um is there the micro docing?

834
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: What can you tell us about that? Are more and

835
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: more people doing it or trying it that way? Well,

836
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean microdocing of all substances has become very fashionable, right.

837
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 1: People are microdocing LSD, people are microdocing psilocybin. Definitely, there

838
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: is a growing movement of people microdcing ibergaine and IT boger,

839
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: and not just for things like Parkinson's and your degenerative conditions,

840
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: just for well being, you know, between the thirties and

841
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: sixties of French company sold Lamborne, which was effectively a

842
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: kind of micro dosive ibergaine as a stimulant and antidepressant

843
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: and so um for kind of stimulant effects mood effects. Yeah,

844
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: there's definitely growing movement of people micro docing I begain

845
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: for that, and then also people micro docing post you know,

846
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: let's say they went in for detoxification with eyeber gain,

847
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: then a provider might well recommend to do some micro

848
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: docing afterwards, so you can have kind of micro docing,

849
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: which would be maybe you know, ten to fifty milligrams

850
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: of iber gain. Then you can have kind of what

851
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: I would call sort of low dose hundred to two

852
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: hundred milligrams. Then you might have a booster slightly higher

853
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: where you'd have more of an experience, um more kind

854
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: of three to four hundred milligrams. There's there's a variety

855
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: of dozing protocols basically, but yeah, I think micro dozing

856
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: will become more popular, especially if we if we discover

857
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: more benefits from it basically and just even anecdotally. I

858
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: mean when we talk to say about that intermediate level,

859
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: what maybe many dosing for lack of a better term

860
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: that people might be using for spiritual insight and awareness,

861
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: like they're doing with ayahuasca or of mescal in or psaulocybin.

862
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: From an actoral perspective, can you compare and contrast the

863
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: use of iber gain at that level, sort of the

864
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, intermediate level, with people's experience with aouaska or

865
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: other substances. Yeah, it's not as visual as aowaska, so

866
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, I probably could have gone on

867
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: a lot more about the differences between them, but iowaska,

868
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: you know, can be very visual. There's a lot of

869
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: physical sensations, physical purging, um, euphoria. Whereas with i begain,

870
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: you the visual component at a low mid dose, you know,

871
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: it's not very pronounced. Some people may have it, but

872
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 1: generally not so pronounced. It's more kind of introspective, um, interesting, thoughtful. Yeah,

873
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: I mean I like to look at ibergain, you know,

874
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 1: in a sense like a kind of um X ray

875
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: of the psyche and emotional field, you know, and and

876
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: and the flood dose is a very tense one, and

877
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: you get to see absolutely everything. And at a lower dose,

878
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, if you'd get a LASS three D approach,

879
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: what about the memory recall element. I think people do

880
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:21,959
Speaker 1: get memory recall from it. Yeah, not intermediate doses. Um yeah,

881
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: I mean at least from what I've seen, but not

882
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: You're getting me intrigued to try it at that kind

883
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: of lower level or media intermediate level and see what

884
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: exactly that's like. And is there any advice you can

885
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 1: offer to our listeners if they're actually looking to find

886
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: a place to have and I begin treatment for themselves

887
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: for somebody they care about. I mean, how should they proceed?

888
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can recommend any um, how

889
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: can you best answer the question? I think, like I

890
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: said in the beginning, definitely look for medically supervised treatment providers,

891
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 1: you know, um, where there's cardiac support on site. Make

892
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 1: sure that all the preparation is done adequately. Um, make

893
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: sure that you know they've taken a thorough sort of

894
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: inventory of your health and health history. Are there places

895
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: or websites where people report their experiences and name the

896
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: clinics where they were so people can evaluate based upon

897
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 1: the consumers experience. I think if you dig around, definitely

898
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: you can find consumer experiences yeah, um written up and

899
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: the various sites you know, show videos. I could list

900
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: a number of clinics, but I also don't have personal

901
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: experience at those clinics, and I don't have and and

902
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: and then there would be many I might leave out

903
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: that I also don't have personal experience of. But go

904
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: for the medically supervised ones. There are several of them

905
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: in Mexico, there's one in Portugal, you know, in um,

906
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: South Africa, Canada, Brazil, I'm sure there's yeah. Just just

907
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 1: so there's a good cardiac team and medical supervision. Okay,

908
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: that sounds like good advice. Well, Hattie, I have learned

909
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 1: an immense amount from our conversation here. I hope our

910
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: listeners have as well. So I just want to thank

911
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: you ever so much for joining me and my listeners

912
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 1: on Psychoactive to talk about IV game. Thank you very much, Ethan.

913
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure, and thanks to all the listeners too.

914
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it,

915
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: or you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts

916
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear

917
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: from our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, comments,

918
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 1: and ideas, then leave us a message at one eight three, three, seven,

919
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or

920
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 1: you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com

921
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You

922
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: can also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive

923
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.

924
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam

925
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,

926
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures,

927
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and

928
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and

929
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: a special thanks to Avi Brio, s f Bianca Grimshaw

930
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: and Robert Deep. Next week I'll be talking with Ellen Scandlin,

931
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: host of the podcast How to Do the Pot, which

932
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: focuses on women and cannabis. Every woman should have a

933
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: weed lube in her bedside table. Just every woman, So

934
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: cannabis lube. It's you know, just a serum and I

935
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: highly highly recommend it um. This goes by back to

936
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: the pelvic region and the endocannabinoid system and having more

937
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: receptors and will not make you feel intoxicated, but it

938
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: will bring more blood flow to the area and that

939
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: increases sensuality, increases touch and so the weed loobe just

940
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: as a as a topical. I give it as to

941
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: friends as a gift a lot, and I highly highly

942
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: recommend it. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it an't miss it.