WEBVTT - The U.S. Anti-Renewables Movement, Explained 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.680 Today's episode is brought to you by earth Breeze. Earth 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.960 Breeze is an amazing replacement for those big plastic jugs 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.840 of the laundry detergent. They're like dryer sheets, except their 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.000 concentrated laundry detergent. You just fold them up, stick them 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.640 in the washer and that's it, no mess, and your 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.040 clothes come out super clean and smelling. 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:23.279 Grate. 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.160 Now onto the show. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.960 The passage of the Inflation Reduction Act in the US 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.960 has spurred a huge amount of investment and progress in 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.479 the renewable energy space, and at the same time a 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:51.160 big uptick in anti renewables activism, especially when it comes 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.480 to offshore wind projects. In a lot of cases, the 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.640 people showing up to fight wind farms, both on land 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.000 and offshore, are the same piece people who were fighting 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.280 them over a decade ago. But there are some new 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.759 groups too, and they're deploying some new tactics, especially around 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.440 conservation and the idea that wind turbines are bad for 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.160 birds and whales. There's no science backing up these claims, 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.240 but that hasn't stopped them from taking hold. Still, it's 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.120 a tricky situation. We're not just talking about fossil fuel 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.679 backed resistance. Here, the groups opposing these projects are not 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.520 just AstroTurf groups. Some of them are real grassroots groups 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.119 comprised of citizens who are genuinely concerned about, for example, 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.560 the fate of the endangered right whale and how offshore 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.240 wind farms might impact it. Many of those groups are 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.960 being co opted and weaponized though, by organizations that have 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.720 spent the past twenty years working to block climate policy. 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.280 And then the whole issue is complicated even further by 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.480 the fact that some of the companies building these wind 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.480 farms either are today or used to be, fossil fuel companies. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.600 It's complicated, which is why a report out of Brown 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.120 University late last year mapping the groups that are active 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:19.240 on the east coast of the US was especially helpful. 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.239 That report is called Against the Wind, and it digs 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.720 into the people and organizations who are actively fighting wind energy. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.600 It looks at how they connect to each other, who's 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.360 funding what, and which talking points seem to be spreading. 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.080 To unpack it all, I've got Isaac Slevin, the lead 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.160 author on the report, with me today. I'm Mimi Westerbilt, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.280 and this is drilled after the break a deep dive 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:52.800 on the Fight over Wind. Stay with us. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:03:00.520 Our exclusive sponsor today is earth Breeze Eco Sheets. Sheets 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.760 look just like a dryer sheet, but they're ultra concentrated 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.360 liquidless laundry detergent. It's the best of all worlds. Earth 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.720 Breeze is tough on stains and odors while also being 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.080 kind to the planet and your skin. These tiny sheets 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.040 can stop millions of detergent jugs from entering our ecosystems. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.800 In fact, five hundred million detergent jugs end up in 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:27.560 landfills and oceans every single year. Ninety one percent of 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.600 single use plastic does not get recycled, including the stuff 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.960 we put in our recycling bins. Sometimes it's hard to 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.000 avoid single use plastic, but earth Breeze makes it really 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:42.400 easy to rid your laundry room of this stuff and 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.400 there's no sacrifice involved. My clothes or clean. They smell 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.480 great and I feel like I did something good just 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.040 by doing my laundry. Eco sheets are also dermatologists tested. 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.200 They're hypoallergenic, they're free of bleach and dyes and parabins, 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.960 and they even have a fragrance free option. I love them. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.200 They make doing laundry just slightly easier too, which is 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.400 always a plus. Right now, my listeners can receive forty 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.120 percent off earth Breeze just by going to earthbreeze dot 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.720 com slash drilled. That's e A R T H B 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:22.240 R e e ze earthbreeze dot com slash drilled to 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.920 cut out single use plastic in your laundry room and 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:31.560 claim forty percent off your subscription earthbreeze dot com slash drilled. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.720 What were you hoping to find when you set out 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:42.640 for this research? 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.479 So over the last couple years, we've witnessed a huge 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.480 rise in opposition to offshore wind across the East Coast. 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.279 And this isn't the first time that's happened. There was 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.280 a wave of opposition to offshore wind a decade ago. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.599 There's always been the skeptics about it. But what was 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:05.520 really interesting about this recent wave is their focus on conservation. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.120 This isn't your run of the mill climate denial movement 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:15.520 or climate denial disinformation tactics being employed. These are self 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:22.320 proclaimed conservationists who are fighting against offshore wind because they 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.640 say that it endangers bird populations and especially that offshore 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:31.520 wind endangers the right whale which is this rare species 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.839 of whale. Scientific literature says that it does not endanger 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.880 the right whale. And so when we started on this project, 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.880 we wanted to know where all of this is coming from. 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:51.080 How are these disparate local anti offshore wind groups developing 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:57.320 such sophisticated political attacks pushing out so much rhetoric and 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.000 information at a time. This projects started looking at specifically 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.520 one group in Little Compton, Rhode Island, called Green Oceans. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:10.760 It was a rhetorical analysis of their information and misinformation 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.760 about everything from right whales to the fishing industry, to 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.120 the reliability of the turbines to impacts on national defense. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.720 And what we found when we were analyzing these rhetorical 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.400 tactics was that they were shared across the movement, and 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.520 not just shared by other anti offshore wind groups in 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.760 Massachusetts and New Jersey, but also shared by climate denial 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.440 groups like the Heartland Institute, like the Committee for a 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.919 Constructive Tomorrow or Sea fact and that was pretty interesting 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.680 and pretty peculiar. So as an aside to that project, 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.279 I began looking at different connections between these grassroots groups 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.960 and those national think tanks, and of course the fossil 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.520 fuel companies and the fossil fuel interests that fund those 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.880 think tanks, And what we ended up with was an 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.279 expansive web of anti offshore wind groups on the ground, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:10.160 working with backing from climate denial and right wing think tanks, 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.120 many of which were bankrolled by classic fossil fuel industry 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:18.120 donors like the Charles Koch Foundation, like the State Policy Network, 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:24.480 like the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers Association. So we 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.040 didn't know what we were going to find. We were 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.760 just looking into where all this opposition came from, and 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.120 what we found was a reasonably well organized and extraordinarily 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.160 well connected group of people in think tanks opposing offshore wind. 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.080 We've been tracking these groups a little bit too, and 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.080 one thing that really jumps out is just how much 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.600 these what I like to call lone wolf climate denayer dudes, 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.960 folks like Mark Morano at Sea Fact or Steve molloy 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.440 who works not just for Heartland but also the Competitive 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.920 Enterprise Institute and CATO and really a whole host of 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:05.120 organizations working against climate policy over the last couple of decades. 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.880 How much guys like that have really jumped into this fight. 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.800 Here's a clip from a little boat ride famed whale 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.240 conservationist Mark Morano took with an anti wind group in 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.560 Rhode Island just to give you a little taste. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.720 Where same whoa stop? 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:25.480 When same well? 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:33.880 Where way well dock w same whoa horsed there this 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.360 message we are here the same the whale. If you 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.280 were a focal fuel project, you would have been shut 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.200 down long ago, as the mortality of wales piling up 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.480 on both pages would have shut you down. For some reason, 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:54.679 you are politically protected wind mails off shore. I'm protected 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.000 for some reason by the politics of our country. Well 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.560 go war rock. 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:15.040 Tell me who slash. What is the Caesar Rodney Institute, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.240 and then what is their relationship with the Texas Public 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:20.679 Policy Foundation. 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.240 So the Caesar Rodney Institute is a State Policy Network 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.439 affiliate based in Delaware. The State Policy Network is this 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:37.400 sprawling collection of libertarian right wing think tanks. There's at 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.720 least one in all fifty states, and the State Policy 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:46.559 Network serves to back these think tanks lobbying efforts and 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.440 political efforts on the state level. That has to do 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.280 with climate and it also has to do with just 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.960 about everything else relating to education. For example, a lot 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.720 of these state policy network groups have been active in 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:05.000 the critical race theory panic recently and working against trans 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:10.079 rights and trans healthcare. And in Delaware, the season Rodney 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:16.000 Institute has become particularly interested in blocking offshore wind and 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.079 our research found that they're extraordinarily well connected there. So 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.800 the Sesar Rodney Institute and one of their directors of policy, 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.920 a man named David Stevenson, created an astro turf of 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:32.640 fake grassroots appearing anti offshore wind group called Save our 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:39.840 Beach Views, and this group blasted out tens of thousands 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:44.839 of mailers containing misinformation about a proposed local offshore wind 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.920 project and raised a substantial amount of money off of it. Now, 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.960 the Seesar Rodney Institute has graduated a bit from Save 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.559 our Beach Views and put that group in a coalition 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:01.760 with itself and four other state policy Network affiliates in 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:06.680 for other states, as well as four other anti offshore 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.360 wind groups across the East Coast. So this is a 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:14.280 Rodney Institute has emerged as a major player in this movement, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:19.120 and you'll see David Stevenson pop up in congressional hearings 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.320 talking about offshore wind and fundraisers for some of these 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:28.040 local anti offshore wind groups. The Texas Public Policy Foundation 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.280 is a climate villain in all regards. Way beyond the 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:37.240 context of offshore wind, they have been working to advance, 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:42.160 particularly natural gas nationwide. This is particularly odd considering how 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.560 reliant Texas is comparatively on wind power. But still, the 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:51.400 Texas Public Policy Foundation is heavily opportunistic and jumps at 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.200 every chance it can get to disparage renewable energy of 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.400 all kinds. A great example was during the freeze in 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.200 Texas a couple of years ago, when they ran with 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.400 the false narrative that wind power was collapsing and causing 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.439 unreliability in the grid and causing people to freeze, when 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.720 in fact it was due to natural gas and the 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.480 fossil fuel industry not being able to cope with the 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:17.920 low temperatures. And so the Texas Public Policy Foundation found 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.520 a way to oppose an offshore wind project called fine 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:27.600 Ear to Wind by funding a lawsuit to attack it. 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:32.319 But the Texas Public Policy Foundation didn't sue themselves. They 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.160 sued on behalf of six plaintiffs, all of which are 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.520 fishing industry groups on the East Coast. All six of 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.040 these groups are also members of the Responsible Offshore Development 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.800 Association or RODA, which does a lot of research and 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.959 coalition building in opposition to offshore wind So from thousands 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.800 of miles away, the Texas Public Policy Foundation, also a 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:58.559 State Policy Network affiliate, has found itself embedded, I should say, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:03.359 has embedded itself in this fight that frankly only concerns 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.760 it because of its ties to the fossil fuel industry. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:10.600 Okay, I'm curious about sort of the relationship between Texas 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.680 Public Policy Foundation and Caesar Rodney and what you found there. 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.240 Our map did not connect them other than having people 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:25.640 in common. So they're both State Policy Network affiliates, but 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:31.160 that's about it. I mean, they have similar supporters. Well, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:35.079 I mean the fact that they're both the premier State 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.760 Policy Network affiliates in their states is really substantial. There's 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:44.040 this phenomenal Jane Mayer article from I believe twenty thirteen 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:49.200 about how the State Policy Network works, like ikea straight 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.880 from the mouth of the State Policy Network CEO or 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.360 president at the time, who's still the State Policy Networks 0:13:55.320 --> 0:14:00.640 CEO or president, that SPN works to equip all of 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.960 these local think tanks with the information and the strategies 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.520 that they need to fight prescribes battles in their state legislatures, 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.800 and TPPF and CRI are both doing that in their 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.640 respective states. So it's always going to look a little 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:23.680 bit different whether you're talking about direct lobbying of legislators 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:28.240 or filing lawsuits or setting up AstroTurf groups. That's where 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.640 the IKEA assemblages look a little bit different from state 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.240 to state, but it's all coming from the same catalog. 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.960 And I think that remembering that is incredibly important when 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.640 you're looking at how this seemingly disparate network of offshore 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:50.200 wind opponents, but also disparate network of public education opponents, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:55.480 of public healthcare opponents actually share a lot of tactics 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.960 and share a lot of strategies because it's no accident 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.680 that they are coming from the same playbook sponsored by 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:01.760 the State Policy Network. 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.000 That's super interesting. I want to talk about all these 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.160 little local operatives in these fights, right, and all of 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.720 these people who get involved in this for one reason 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.560 or another. And I feel like it starts to get 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.080 complicated when we talk about these people, because some of 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:23.960 them are themselves, you know, just don't like the idea 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.520 of offshore wind for some reason or another. Some of 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.120 them have like their own, you know, legitimate to them 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.680 at least reasons for not wanting these projects, but then 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.840 they get sort of like co opted into this whole effort. 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.280 And I'd love to have you talk about that, because 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.680 it's complicated, and that complexity gets flattened out when we 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:43.479 talk about. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.960 This stuff a lot, for sure. Yeah, thank you for 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.840 asking that question, because I do agree that it's something 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.040 that gets lost. A good place to start would be 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.880 Mary Chalk. She's a co founder of a Save Right 0:15:55.920 --> 0:16:00.640 Whales coalition and co director of Nantucket Residence for Whales, 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:06.040 which was formerly known as Nantucket Residents Against Turbines, and 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:13.000 she was particularly interesting in our early research because of 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:19.160 her conservation based rhetoric talking about whales and pollution about 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:25.240 pristine views in Nantucket. She's appeared at events hosted by 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:29.040 Green Oceans, which is the offshore wind group anti offshore 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.600 wind group. In Little Compton, Rhode Island. She was wearing 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:36.560 a whale costume at a public hearing that Green Oceans disrupted, 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:41.280 and Green Oceans also has used a lot of that 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:47.040 same rhetoric in terms of legitimate claims. It's important to remember, 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.440 I think it's important to remember first that there are 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.840 valid reasons to be worried about industrialization of natural resources, 0:16:55.440 --> 0:17:02.280 of these massive imported steel turbines popping up in protected 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:07.840 waters or waters that are essential to certain endangered species. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:15.200 The conservationists have gotten really good at blocking projects in general, 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.560 fossil fuel projects on those grounds, and I think you 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.159 see an extension of that here. I don't believe that 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.320 people like Mary Chalk are lying about their love for 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.960 whales or lying about their love for environmental conservation, and 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:30.600 you can see that firsthand in a lot of their 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:35.160 Facebook groups. There's a ton of information and misinformation that's 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.560 communicated through antiofshow in Facebook groups, and it's sometimes dozens 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:44.199 of articles and photos every single day of whales that 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:50.480 have washed up on coastlines across New England. So I 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.760 think that's the more legitimate side of at least legitimate worry. 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.440 It's always important to note here that there actually isn't 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:01.120 a connection, has proven scientific connection between offshore wind construction 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.359 and environmental conservation. That is something that I think is 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:08.680 important to note because this isn't an AstroTurf movement, This 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.480 isn't people like Mary Chalk haven't been placed by the 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:18.560 fossil fuel industry to stir up something big. Another aspect 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.000 that I think is important is property values. A lot 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:26.800 of the people in Green Ocean's leadership have extremely expensive 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:34.119 ocean front properties and would be seeing the turbines often 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.600 dozens of miles out. If you look at the renderings 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:41.920 in a recent lawsuit from the Newport Preservation Society about 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.320 offshore wind, you can see actually how stunningly far out 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.160 they would be and how they'd be really difficult to see. 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.480 So even though that doesn't translate, it translates pretty rarely 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.560 into rhetoric about actual property values. I think that's where 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.680 a lot of that legitimate concern comes from, of like, hey, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.359 hired to the coasts, or I wanted to live in 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.199 a space and see certain things that are important to 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:11.800 me spiritually, important to me culturally, and massive offshore wind 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:16.679 turbines are not those. And yeah, so that's that for 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.480 I can talk about the fishing industry if you want to. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.320 I think they're super interesting in all of this. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.359 But yes, I would love to hear that, because the 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.200 I mean that's interesting to me about the fishing stuff 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:33.359 is like they've also been getting impacted by climate change 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:38.240 forever so like, yeah, so, yeah, I would love to 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:39.960 have you about that totally. 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.280 So these self proclaimed conservationists have ended up in an 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:48.320 alliance with a lot of players in the fishing industry, 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:53.199 both opposing offshore wind. The conservationists for claims about whale conservation, 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:59.679 and the fishing industry for worries that offshore wind can 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.600 struc aduction will disrupt where fish are and what kinds 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.640 of fish are in which places, as well as fish 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.440 migratory patterns. Those concerns are a lot more founded than 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:13.080 those about whales. It's still a really weird alliance because, 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.960 according to Noah, fishing gear entanglement has caused sixty five 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.440 percent of documented right whale deaths, injuries, and morbidity since 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.760 twenty seventeen. In other words, the biggest enemy to those 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:32.360 who proclaim to love right whales is the fishing industry, 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.360 who they've struck an alliance with and opposition to offshore wind. 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:41.520 But there are legitimate reasons for fishing communities to be concerned. 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:46.080 I mean, there's a first strictly financial reason of needing 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:51.160 a livelihood and relying on fisheries and relying on fishing 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.720 grounds to produce certain kinds of fish at certain times 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.560 of year, and also the cultural aspect of things. I mean, 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.800 some of these fishing communities and fishing leaders are third 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:04.399 fourth generation, potentially going back even farther. And so the 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:11.400 idea of simply switching industries because a Danish energy company 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:15.720 wants to put up wind turbines is unfathomable and fundamentally disrespectful. 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:22.080 But we've seen some of these grassroots conservation style groups 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.280 pick up that fishing rhetoric and forge those fishing alliances 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:34.639 after making a lot of less maybe politically relevant arguments 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.639 or certainly true arguments. So the fishing industry has become 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:40.760 a very helpful tool. You could even call them a 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.159 front for people who want to block offshore wind for 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.800 other reasons, and that's everyone from those conservationists to the 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.960 fossil fuel interests. I have no reason to think that 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.439 the Texas Public Policy Foundation particularly cares about New England 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.320 fishing communities. But if the fishing communities are going to 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:00.520 get up in arms about offshore wind, than the Texas 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.720 Public Policy Foundation can swoop in and fund a lawsuit 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:05.119 about it. 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:10.679 I actually saw something recently from Steve Mulloy. 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.240 His articles have popped up everywhere. 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:19.520 Under of the whales. Steve Mulloy seriously right, No, And 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:21.119 that's why it's so preposterous. 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.640 Like people at you know, See Fact and the Heartland Institute, 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.679 who have been blocking climate policy and conservation policy for decades, 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.600 We've made a whole career out of it, are now 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:37.119 being used as defenders of the wales in the face 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:41.560 of industrialization. And it's kind of preposterous when you think 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.959 about it. But also, you know, and I want, as 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.320 much as I want to be cynical about it, I 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:52.399 think it's also worth remembering that this is how dire 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:57.119 these anti offshore wind advocates feel. That their situation is 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:02.320 that the strangest of bedfellows can be made, can come 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:07.480 together so that these projects can be shot down, even 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:11.560 when it's people who are responsible for hurting and killing whales. 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.119 Whatever it takes to get these turbines out. 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:20.359 Of there, was there anyone working on conservation solutions that 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:22.440 didn't rule out offshore wind. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.800 I mean, it's hard to know what to do. We 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:31.000 are trying a few different things. So there was a 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:36.040 hearing in Little Compton in March or April that included 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:41.200 Professor Timmins Roberts talking about the role of the fossil 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:44.920 fuel industry. That included a marine biologist from the University 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.280 of Rhode Island who talked about Wales. It was put 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:54.320 on by a local state representative to give it a 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:58.960 sense of you know, legitimacy and place for dialogue, and 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.640 Green Oceans was and having it, you know, they protested. 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:07.320 They got up and handed out leaflets at the door 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:09.720 to make sure everyone knew the truth about offshore. 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.879 When do you feel like it's become just really combatd 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.480 in that way where people just are like not super 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:18.920 open to conversation. 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:22.920 So do I feel like people are combative? 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.359 Yeah? Or just like people are just dug into their 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:30.320 sides and not really even that interested in solving the 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:31.240 issue anymore. 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:36.200 Yeah, I do. I mean the Climate and Development Lab 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:41.800 published a report about the misinformation tactics that Green Oceans 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:47.360 has used in its literature, and they attacked the CDL 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:50.520 on Twitter. We put out this report and we're getting 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.200 attacked on Twitter for us being the ones sponsored by 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:56.600 the fossil fuel industry. 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:57.080 Wow. 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.800 A funny note on that is like they cited this 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.320 is save LBI, Save on Beach Island. They cited a 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:06.800 Brown Daily Herald article saying that Brown takes twenty million 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:09.879 from the fossil fuel industry myself and will catch up. 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:12.680 My co author in this co wrote that report too, 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.320 and like, we know that this is the whole issue, 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:18.919 that fossil fuel money is everywhere and we need to 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:23.119 combat it everywhere, and just saying nah, no you is 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:27.639 actually really counterproductive and not about actually creating the systems 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:31.960 we need to be sustainable and as an academic institution 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:36.879 to spread truth and facilitate free inquiry, but it's just 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:41.159 about scoring points. But to go back to your I 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.440 think this also relates to your earlier point about Steve 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:50.040 molloy and people just wanting to win. They're in their 0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:56.520 entire There's such a media ecosystem, a standalone media ecosystem 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:03.560 around anti offshore wind. They have at least a dozen 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:08.120 Facebook groups with thousands of members each where you can 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:14.400 just scroll through and read about wales dying, about turbines leaking. 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:17.040 There'll be the occasional win. You know, a lawsuit in 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:21.760 France that mandates that turbines have to be taken down 0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:24.720 to protect whales, or instead giving up on a couple 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.359 of its projects in New Jersey and so you can 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.680 celebrate alongside people and I don't know if you need 0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:34.479 to know what you're celebrating for. Then there's of course 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:38.000 Fox News and the Murdoch media empire, and so people 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:42.800 like Mike Dean, who appears in our map, go on 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:46.400 Fox News and are put on national television talking about 0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:50.199 the impacts on Wales. This has also been happening with 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:53.520 Sky News in Australia. There's this whole international element with 0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:57.080 Australia that we haven't even begun to analyze yet, where 0:26:57.080 --> 0:26:58.919 we're seeing a lot of the same tactics and a 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:03.080 lot of the same media GoSystem happen. And once you're 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:06.480 in this mindset that you can only trust a small 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:09.040 subset of people who are speaking truth to power, it's 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:12.800 really hard to get in and wrestle that idea away. 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:16.600 And that's so not unique to Offshore Wind. Combating the 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:22.160 right wing media ecosystem is often a very personal issue, 0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:27.080 and we just read these heartbreaking articles about people's parents 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:30.880 and grandparents completely falling victim to it. That's so persuasive 0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:35.520