1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by earth Breeze. Earth 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: Breeze is an amazing replacement for those big plastic jugs 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: of the laundry detergent. They're like dryer sheets, except their 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: concentrated laundry detergent. You just fold them up, stick them 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: in the washer and that's it, no mess, and your 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: clothes come out super clean and smelling. 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 2: Grate. 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: Now onto the show. 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 3: The passage of the Inflation Reduction Act in the US 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 3: has spurred a huge amount of investment and progress in 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 3: the renewable energy space, and at the same time a 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 3: big uptick in anti renewables activism, especially when it comes 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 3: to offshore wind projects. In a lot of cases, the 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 3: people showing up to fight wind farms, both on land 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 3: and offshore, are the same piece people who were fighting 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 3: them over a decade ago. But there are some new 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 3: groups too, and they're deploying some new tactics, especially around 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 3: conservation and the idea that wind turbines are bad for 19 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 3: birds and whales. There's no science backing up these claims, 20 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: but that hasn't stopped them from taking hold. Still, it's 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 3: a tricky situation. We're not just talking about fossil fuel 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 3: backed resistance. Here, the groups opposing these projects are not 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 3: just AstroTurf groups. Some of them are real grassroots groups 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 3: comprised of citizens who are genuinely concerned about, for example, 25 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 3: the fate of the endangered right whale and how offshore 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: wind farms might impact it. Many of those groups are 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 3: being co opted and weaponized though, by organizations that have 28 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: spent the past twenty years working to block climate policy. 29 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 3: And then the whole issue is complicated even further by 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 3: the fact that some of the companies building these wind 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: farms either are today or used to be, fossil fuel companies. 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: It's complicated, which is why a report out of Brown 33 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: University late last year mapping the groups that are active 34 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: on the east coast of the US was especially helpful. 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 3: That report is called Against the Wind, and it digs 36 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 3: into the people and organizations who are actively fighting wind energy. 37 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: It looks at how they connect to each other, who's 38 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 3: funding what, and which talking points seem to be spreading. 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: To unpack it all, I've got Isaac Slevin, the lead 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: author on the report, with me today. I'm Mimi Westerbilt, 41 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 3: and this is drilled after the break a deep dive 42 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 3: on the Fight over Wind. Stay with us. 43 00:02:54,639 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: Our exclusive sponsor today is earth Breeze Eco Sheets. Sheets 44 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: look just like a dryer sheet, but they're ultra concentrated 45 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: liquidless laundry detergent. It's the best of all worlds. Earth 46 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Breeze is tough on stains and odors while also being 47 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: kind to the planet and your skin. 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That's e A R T H B 64 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: R e e ze earthbreeze dot com slash drilled to 65 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: cut out single use plastic in your laundry room and 66 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: claim forty percent off your subscription earthbreeze dot com slash drilled. 67 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 3: What were you hoping to find when you set out 68 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 3: for this research? 69 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: So over the last couple years, we've witnessed a huge 70 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: rise in opposition to offshore wind across the East Coast. 71 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: And this isn't the first time that's happened. There was 72 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 2: a wave of opposition to offshore wind a decade ago. 73 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: There's always been the skeptics about it. But what was 74 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: really interesting about this recent wave is their focus on conservation. 75 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: This isn't your run of the mill climate denial movement 76 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: or climate denial disinformation tactics being employed. These are self 77 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: proclaimed conservationists who are fighting against offshore wind because they 78 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: say that it endangers bird populations and especially that offshore 79 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: wind endangers the right whale which is this rare species 80 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 2: of whale. Scientific literature says that it does not endanger 81 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: the right whale. And so when we started on this project, 82 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: we wanted to know where all of this is coming from. 83 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: How are these disparate local anti offshore wind groups developing 84 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: such sophisticated political attacks pushing out so much rhetoric and 85 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: information at a time. This projects started looking at specifically 86 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: one group in Little Compton, Rhode Island, called Green Oceans. 87 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: It was a rhetorical analysis of their information and misinformation 88 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: about everything from right whales to the fishing industry, to 89 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: the reliability of the turbines to impacts on national defense. 90 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: And what we found when we were analyzing these rhetorical 91 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: tactics was that they were shared across the movement, and 92 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: not just shared by other anti offshore wind groups in 93 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: Massachusetts and New Jersey, but also shared by climate denial 94 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: groups like the Heartland Institute, like the Committee for a 95 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: Constructive Tomorrow or Sea fact and that was pretty interesting 96 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: and pretty peculiar. So as an aside to that project, 97 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: I began looking at different connections between these grassroots groups 98 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: and those national think tanks, and of course the fossil 99 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: fuel companies and the fossil fuel interests that fund those 100 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: think tanks, And what we ended up with was an 101 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: expansive web of anti offshore wind groups on the ground, 102 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: working with backing from climate denial and right wing think tanks, 103 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: many of which were bankrolled by classic fossil fuel industry 104 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: donors like the Charles Koch Foundation, like the State Policy Network, 105 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: like the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers Association. So we 106 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: didn't know what we were going to find. We were 107 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: just looking into where all this opposition came from, and 108 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: what we found was a reasonably well organized and extraordinarily 109 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: well connected group of people in think tanks opposing offshore wind. 110 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: We've been tracking these groups a little bit too, and 111 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: one thing that really jumps out is just how much 112 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: these what I like to call lone wolf climate denayer dudes, 113 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: folks like Mark Morano at Sea Fact or Steve molloy 114 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: who works not just for Heartland but also the Competitive 115 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: Enterprise Institute and CATO and really a whole host of 116 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: organizations working against climate policy over the last couple of decades. 117 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: How much guys like that have really jumped into this fight. 118 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: Here's a clip from a little boat ride famed whale 119 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: conservationist Mark Morano took with an anti wind group in 120 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 3: Rhode Island just to give you a little taste. 121 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: Where same whoa stop? 122 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: When same well? 123 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 5: Where way well dock w same whoa horsed there this 124 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 5: message we are here the same the whale. If you 125 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 5: were a focal fuel project, you would have been shut 126 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 5: down long ago, as the mortality of wales piling up 127 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 5: on both pages would have shut you down. For some reason, 128 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 5: you are politically protected wind mails off shore. I'm protected 129 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 5: for some reason by the politics of our country. Well 130 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 5: go war rock. 131 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: Tell me who slash. What is the Caesar Rodney Institute, 132 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: and then what is their relationship with the Texas Public 133 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 3: Policy Foundation. 134 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: So the Caesar Rodney Institute is a State Policy Network 135 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 2: affiliate based in Delaware. The State Policy Network is this 136 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: sprawling collection of libertarian right wing think tanks. There's at 137 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: least one in all fifty states, and the State Policy 138 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 2: Network serves to back these think tanks lobbying efforts and 139 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: political efforts on the state level. That has to do 140 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: with climate and it also has to do with just 141 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: about everything else relating to education. For example, a lot 142 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: of these state policy network groups have been active in 143 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: the critical race theory panic recently and working against trans 144 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: rights and trans healthcare. And in Delaware, the season Rodney 145 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: Institute has become particularly interested in blocking offshore wind and 146 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 2: our research found that they're extraordinarily well connected there. So 147 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: the Sesar Rodney Institute and one of their directors of policy, 148 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: a man named David Stevenson, created an astro turf of 149 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: fake grassroots appearing anti offshore wind group called Save our 150 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: Beach Views, and this group blasted out tens of thousands 151 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 2: of mailers containing misinformation about a proposed local offshore wind 152 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: project and raised a substantial amount of money off of it. Now, 153 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: the Seesar Rodney Institute has graduated a bit from Save 154 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: our Beach Views and put that group in a coalition 155 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: with itself and four other state policy Network affiliates in 156 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: for other states, as well as four other anti offshore 157 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: wind groups across the East Coast. So this is a 158 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: Rodney Institute has emerged as a major player in this movement, 159 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: and you'll see David Stevenson pop up in congressional hearings 160 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: talking about offshore wind and fundraisers for some of these 161 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: local anti offshore wind groups. The Texas Public Policy Foundation 162 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: is a climate villain in all regards. Way beyond the 163 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: context of offshore wind, they have been working to advance, 164 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: particularly natural gas nationwide. This is particularly odd considering how 165 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 2: reliant Texas is comparatively on wind power. But still, the 166 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: Texas Public Policy Foundation is heavily opportunistic and jumps at 167 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 2: every chance it can get to disparage renewable energy of 168 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: all kinds. A great example was during the freeze in 169 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: Texas a couple of years ago, when they ran with 170 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: the false narrative that wind power was collapsing and causing 171 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: unreliability in the grid and causing people to freeze, when 172 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: in fact it was due to natural gas and the 173 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry not being able to cope with the 174 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: low temperatures. And so the Texas Public Policy Foundation found 175 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: a way to oppose an offshore wind project called fine 176 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: Ear to Wind by funding a lawsuit to attack it. 177 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 2: But the Texas Public Policy Foundation didn't sue themselves. They 178 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: sued on behalf of six plaintiffs, all of which are 179 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: fishing industry groups on the East Coast. All six of 180 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: these groups are also members of the Responsible Offshore Development 181 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: Association or RODA, which does a lot of research and 182 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: coalition building in opposition to offshore wind So from thousands 183 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: of miles away, the Texas Public Policy Foundation, also a 184 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 2: State Policy Network affiliate, has found itself embedded, I should say, 185 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,359 Speaker 2: has embedded itself in this fight that frankly only concerns 186 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: it because of its ties to the fossil fuel industry. 187 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm curious about sort of the relationship between Texas 188 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 3: Public Policy Foundation and Caesar Rodney and what you found there. 189 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: Our map did not connect them other than having people 190 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: in common. So they're both State Policy Network affiliates, but 191 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: that's about it. I mean, they have similar supporters. Well, 192 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 2: I mean the fact that they're both the premier State 193 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: Policy Network affiliates in their states is really substantial. There's 194 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: this phenomenal Jane Mayer article from I believe twenty thirteen 195 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: about how the State Policy Network works, like ikea straight 196 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: from the mouth of the State Policy Network CEO or 197 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: president at the time, who's still the State Policy Networks 198 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: CEO or president, that SPN works to equip all of 199 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: these local think tanks with the information and the strategies 200 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: that they need to fight prescribes battles in their state legislatures, 201 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: and TPPF and CRI are both doing that in their 202 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: respective states. So it's always going to look a little 203 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: bit different whether you're talking about direct lobbying of legislators 204 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: or filing lawsuits or setting up AstroTurf groups. That's where 205 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: the IKEA assemblages look a little bit different from state 206 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: to state, but it's all coming from the same catalog. 207 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: And I think that remembering that is incredibly important when 208 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: you're looking at how this seemingly disparate network of offshore 209 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: wind opponents, but also disparate network of public education opponents, 210 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: of public healthcare opponents actually share a lot of tactics 211 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: and share a lot of strategies because it's no accident 212 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: that they are coming from the same playbook sponsored by 213 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: the State Policy Network. 214 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: That's super interesting. I want to talk about all these 215 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: little local operatives in these fights, right, and all of 216 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 3: these people who get involved in this for one reason 217 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 3: or another. And I feel like it starts to get 218 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: complicated when we talk about these people, because some of 219 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: them are themselves, you know, just don't like the idea 220 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: of offshore wind for some reason or another. Some of 221 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: them have like their own, you know, legitimate to them 222 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 3: at least reasons for not wanting these projects, but then 223 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: they get sort of like co opted into this whole effort. 224 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 3: And I'd love to have you talk about that, because 225 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 3: it's complicated, and that complexity gets flattened out when we 226 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:43,479 Speaker 3: talk about. 227 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: This stuff a lot, for sure. Yeah, thank you for 228 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: asking that question, because I do agree that it's something 229 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: that gets lost. A good place to start would be 230 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: Mary Chalk. She's a co founder of a Save Right 231 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: Whales coalition and co director of Nantucket Residence for Whales, 232 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: which was formerly known as Nantucket Residents Against Turbines, and 233 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: she was particularly interesting in our early research because of 234 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: her conservation based rhetoric talking about whales and pollution about 235 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: pristine views in Nantucket. She's appeared at events hosted by 236 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: Green Oceans, which is the offshore wind group anti offshore 237 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: wind group. In Little Compton, Rhode Island. She was wearing 238 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: a whale costume at a public hearing that Green Oceans disrupted, 239 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: and Green Oceans also has used a lot of that 240 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: same rhetoric in terms of legitimate claims. It's important to remember, 241 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: I think it's important to remember first that there are 242 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: valid reasons to be worried about industrialization of natural resources, 243 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: of these massive imported steel turbines popping up in protected 244 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: waters or waters that are essential to certain endangered species. 245 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: The conservationists have gotten really good at blocking projects in general, 246 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: fossil fuel projects on those grounds, and I think you 247 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 2: see an extension of that here. I don't believe that 248 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: people like Mary Chalk are lying about their love for 249 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: whales or lying about their love for environmental conservation, and 250 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: you can see that firsthand in a lot of their 251 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: Facebook groups. There's a ton of information and misinformation that's 252 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: communicated through antiofshow in Facebook groups, and it's sometimes dozens 253 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 2: of articles and photos every single day of whales that 254 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 2: have washed up on coastlines across New England. So I 255 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: think that's the more legitimate side of at least legitimate worry. 256 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: It's always important to note here that there actually isn't 257 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 2: a connection, has proven scientific connection between offshore wind construction 258 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 2: and environmental conservation. That is something that I think is 259 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: important to note because this isn't an AstroTurf movement, This 260 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: isn't people like Mary Chalk haven't been placed by the 261 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry to stir up something big. Another aspect 262 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: that I think is important is property values. A lot 263 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: of the people in Green Ocean's leadership have extremely expensive 264 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 2: ocean front properties and would be seeing the turbines often 265 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: dozens of miles out. If you look at the renderings 266 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: in a recent lawsuit from the Newport Preservation Society about 267 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: offshore wind, you can see actually how stunningly far out 268 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 2: they would be and how they'd be really difficult to see. 269 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: So even though that doesn't translate, it translates pretty rarely 270 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: into rhetoric about actual property values. I think that's where 271 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: a lot of that legitimate concern comes from, of like, hey, 272 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: hired to the coasts, or I wanted to live in 273 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 2: a space and see certain things that are important to 274 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: me spiritually, important to me culturally, and massive offshore wind 275 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: turbines are not those. And yeah, so that's that for 276 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 2: I can talk about the fishing industry if you want to. 277 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: I think they're super interesting in all of this. 278 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 3: But yes, I would love to hear that, because the 279 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: I mean that's interesting to me about the fishing stuff 280 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 3: is like they've also been getting impacted by climate change 281 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: forever so like, yeah, so, yeah, I would love to 282 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: have you about that totally. 283 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: So these self proclaimed conservationists have ended up in an 284 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: alliance with a lot of players in the fishing industry, 285 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 2: both opposing offshore wind. The conservationists for claims about whale conservation, 286 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 2: and the fishing industry for worries that offshore wind can 287 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: struc aduction will disrupt where fish are and what kinds 288 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 2: of fish are in which places, as well as fish 289 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 2: migratory patterns. Those concerns are a lot more founded than 290 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: those about whales. It's still a really weird alliance because, 291 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: according to Noah, fishing gear entanglement has caused sixty five 292 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 2: percent of documented right whale deaths, injuries, and morbidity since 293 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. In other words, the biggest enemy to those 294 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 2: who proclaim to love right whales is the fishing industry, 295 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 2: who they've struck an alliance with and opposition to offshore wind. 296 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: But there are legitimate reasons for fishing communities to be concerned. 297 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a first strictly financial reason of needing 298 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 2: a livelihood and relying on fisheries and relying on fishing 299 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: grounds to produce certain kinds of fish at certain times 300 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: of year, and also the cultural aspect of things. I mean, 301 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: some of these fishing communities and fishing leaders are third 302 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 2: fourth generation, potentially going back even farther. And so the 303 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 2: idea of simply switching industries because a Danish energy company 304 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: wants to put up wind turbines is unfathomable and fundamentally disrespectful. 305 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: But we've seen some of these grassroots conservation style groups 306 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: pick up that fishing rhetoric and forge those fishing alliances 307 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: after making a lot of less maybe politically relevant arguments 308 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: or certainly true arguments. So the fishing industry has become 309 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: a very helpful tool. You could even call them a 310 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 2: front for people who want to block offshore wind for 311 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: other reasons, and that's everyone from those conservationists to the 312 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: fossil fuel interests. I have no reason to think that 313 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 2: the Texas Public Policy Foundation particularly cares about New England 314 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: fishing communities. But if the fishing communities are going to 315 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: get up in arms about offshore wind, than the Texas 316 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: Public Policy Foundation can swoop in and fund a lawsuit 317 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 2: about it. 318 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 3: I actually saw something recently from Steve Mulloy. 319 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: His articles have popped up everywhere. 320 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 3: Under of the whales. Steve Mulloy seriously right, No, And 321 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: that's why it's so preposterous. 322 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: Like people at you know, See Fact and the Heartland Institute, 323 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: who have been blocking climate policy and conservation policy for decades, 324 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: We've made a whole career out of it, are now 325 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: being used as defenders of the wales in the face 326 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: of industrialization. And it's kind of preposterous when you think 327 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,959 Speaker 2: about it. But also, you know, and I want, as 328 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: much as I want to be cynical about it, I 329 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 2: think it's also worth remembering that this is how dire 330 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: these anti offshore wind advocates feel. That their situation is 331 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: that the strangest of bedfellows can be made, can come 332 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: together so that these projects can be shot down, even 333 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: when it's people who are responsible for hurting and killing whales. 334 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 2: Whatever it takes to get these turbines out. 335 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 3: Of there, was there anyone working on conservation solutions that 336 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 3: didn't rule out offshore wind. 337 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to know what to do. We 338 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: are trying a few different things. So there was a 339 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 2: hearing in Little Compton in March or April that included 340 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: Professor Timmins Roberts talking about the role of the fossil 341 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 2: fuel industry. That included a marine biologist from the University 342 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: of Rhode Island who talked about Wales. It was put 343 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: on by a local state representative to give it a 344 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: sense of you know, legitimacy and place for dialogue, and 345 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 2: Green Oceans was and having it, you know, they protested. 346 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: They got up and handed out leaflets at the door 347 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: to make sure everyone knew the truth about offshore. 348 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: When do you feel like it's become just really combatd 349 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 3: in that way where people just are like not super 350 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 3: open to conversation. 351 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 2: So do I feel like people are combative? 352 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 3: Yeah? Or just like people are just dug into their 353 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 3: sides and not really even that interested in solving the 354 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: issue anymore. 355 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I mean the Climate and Development Lab 356 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: published a report about the misinformation tactics that Green Oceans 357 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 2: has used in its literature, and they attacked the CDL 358 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: on Twitter. We put out this report and we're getting 359 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: attacked on Twitter for us being the ones sponsored by 360 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry. 361 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: Wow. 362 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: A funny note on that is like they cited this 363 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: is save LBI, Save on Beach Island. They cited a 364 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: Brown Daily Herald article saying that Brown takes twenty million 365 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: from the fossil fuel industry myself and will catch up. 366 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 2: My co author in this co wrote that report too, 367 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: and like, we know that this is the whole issue, 368 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: that fossil fuel money is everywhere and we need to 369 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: combat it everywhere, and just saying nah, no you is 370 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: actually really counterproductive and not about actually creating the systems 371 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: we need to be sustainable and as an academic institution 372 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 2: to spread truth and facilitate free inquiry, but it's just 373 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: about scoring points. But to go back to your I 374 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: think this also relates to your earlier point about Steve 375 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 2: molloy and people just wanting to win. They're in their 376 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 2: entire There's such a media ecosystem, a standalone media ecosystem 377 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: around anti offshore wind. They have at least a dozen 378 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 2: Facebook groups with thousands of members each where you can 379 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: just scroll through and read about wales dying, about turbines leaking. 380 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: There'll be the occasional win. You know, a lawsuit in 381 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: France that mandates that turbines have to be taken down 382 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: to protect whales, or instead giving up on a couple 383 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 2: of its projects in New Jersey and so you can 384 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 2: celebrate alongside people and I don't know if you need 385 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 2: to know what you're celebrating for. Then there's of course 386 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: Fox News and the Murdoch media empire, and so people 387 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: like Mike Dean, who appears in our map, go on 388 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 2: Fox News and are put on national television talking about 389 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 2: the impacts on Wales. This has also been happening with 390 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: Sky News in Australia. There's this whole international element with 391 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: Australia that we haven't even begun to analyze yet, where 392 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 2: we're seeing a lot of the same tactics and a 393 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: lot of the same media GoSystem happen. And once you're 394 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: in this mindset that you can only trust a small 395 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: subset of people who are speaking truth to power, it's 396 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: really hard to get in and wrestle that idea away. 397 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: And that's so not unique to Offshore Wind. Combating the 398 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 2: right wing media ecosystem is often a very personal issue, 399 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: and we just read these heartbreaking articles about people's parents 400 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: and grandparents completely falling victim to it. That's so persuasive 401 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: because it teaches you that you can't trust anybody else. 402 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 2: So even when you have your elected officials, your university scientists, 403 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: your scholars, your journalists coming out and saying that right 404 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: whales are going to be okay and that we need 405 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: wind turbines for a just transition. They don't seem to 406 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 2: trust them, or at the very least they don't seem 407 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 2: to find their articles they're persuasive enough to sort of 408 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: lay down their arms. I don't know. We have this 409 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 2: website called like realofshore wind dot com or something that 410 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: like that that's like looks like kind of wary that. Yeah, 411 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: it's awesome, Like it's a designed like one of these 412 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: sort of scammy yes. Yes, yeah, so we're going to see. 413 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: But it's like, I feel like the solution, other than 414 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 2: you know, winning political battles, you know, in terms of 415 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: like changing hearts and minds, it might just be the 416 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 2: same tactics that we need to bring a lot of 417 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: our people back. 418 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 3: That's super interesting. The Australia connection makes me wonder if, 419 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 3: because you know, State Policy Network and Heartland and whatever 420 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 3: part of the Atlas network too. So, yeah, have you 421 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: seen any ideas just sort of floating through that whole 422 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: kind of conservative think tank ecosystem. 423 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: More broadly, yes, the research on usherwind opposition and at 424 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: LISS is really really new, like in the last few months, 425 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: and so there's a lot we don't know yet. What 426 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 2: we do know is that members of at LISS, just 427 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: like members of SPN, are using i mean almost identical rhetoric. 428 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: I can't confirm that there are talking points being passed around, 429 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: but you can clearly see in for example, the white 430 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: paper put out by Green Oceans that they are citing 431 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: Steve Molloy and they are citing sea Fact and so 432 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: whether or not somebody is hand delivering that misinformation and 433 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: those polished talking points to them, we're still getting there. 434 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: So when our report came out and I saw in 435 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 2: the Green Oceans Facebook group something that a comment like, 436 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: oh looks like we're in this network of fossil fuel 437 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: industry interests and climate deniers who knew, I was thinking, well, yeah, 438 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure you don't think of yourself as 439 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: being in that indus tree, but you are plainly borrowing 440 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 2: from their talking points because you find them persuasive and 441 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: they've made their way to you. So absolutely there's there's 442 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: tons of shared rhetoric and shared talking points. It just 443 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: remains to be seen how explicit this network is, how 444 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: much people in it know that they're in it. 445 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so interesting. 446 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: But some of these conservations totally see themselves fighting the 447 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry. The difference, of course, being that the 448 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry is spending single digit percentages of its 449 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: annual expenditures on renewable energy and then even then lying 450 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: about it, Shell spending what one point five percent annually 451 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: on renewables after they got caught for calling natural gas 452 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: expenditures renewables. So I think that's the difference, and maybe 453 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: that's a way to break through the media ecosystem. 454 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but that's interesting that there's this idea that 455 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 3: we're also fighting oil majors because not only are they 456 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: not spending that much, but their presence in the renewable 457 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 3: energy space is creating opposition too. 458 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 5: Yeah. 459 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I hadn't thought about that of like, 460 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, because there's all all of 461 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 2: the discourse about like to what degree do we allow 462 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: fossil fuel the fossil fuel industry to pivot, right, Like 463 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: we can't trust them as actors, but you know they 464 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: are as reliable, honest actors, but also they have all 465 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: of this capital. 466 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and technical expertise like that always gets slumped into it. 467 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 2: Maybe we should just go completely invest in these startups 468 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: or in particular transition to oil majors like or Steed 469 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: because I don't know, but I don't know. I think 470 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: I don't buy that because you'd still have all of 471 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: the arguments about fishing and about where regardless of which 472 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: company is setting. 473 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 3: Up the turbines, right, Like the fishermen are they don't 474 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: really care that it's BP. 475 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: I just pulled up one of the tweets I've gotten 476 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: In response Mike Dean, who was on Fox News that 477 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: offer wind said, Wow, give them a few more semesters 478 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 2: and they might find out the fossil fuel industry BP, Shell, 479 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: equinor Orsted edf are the ones actually building the offshore 480 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: wind projects. These grassroots groups are opposing genius. 481 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: Wow, it's just so interesting, but it also just makes 482 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 3: this problem really hard to solve. Right, last question, I 483 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 3: just I would love to hear from you. What were 484 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 3: some of the things that you found in the course 485 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 3: of doing this research that were surprising to you? What 486 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: kind of jumped out to you as being like WHOA 487 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 3: was not expecting that? Or that You're like I really 488 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 3: don't people pay attention to this? 489 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: Sure? I think it's really important. I mean what we've 490 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: just been talking about, how earnest A lot of these 491 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: groups are seeing themselves as conservationists, seeing themselves as defending 492 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: their fishing communities and fighting against these fossil fuel majors. 493 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: This isn't like the AstroTurf climate denial movements of the past. 494 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: A lot of this actually is organic and finding allies 495 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: not because they love right wing climate denial think tanks, 496 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: but because nobody else is coming to their aid. Megan Lapp, 497 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: who's big in fishing policy on the East Coast. She's 498 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: a fisheries liaison for a company called Sea Freeze in 499 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: Rhode Island, even said this when she was asked about 500 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 2: how she feels about the Texas Public Policy Foundation backing 501 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: her lawsuit, and she said something along the lines of 502 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: we need all the help that we can get. So 503 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: it's not exactly a plea for plead to be gentle, 504 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: but to get people credit for backing their communities again 505 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: for a lot of reasons that actually aren't based in science. 506 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 2: For you know, there's a lot going on there that 507 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: isn't particularly savory. But we shouldn't just write this off 508 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: and treat it like a bunch of misinformed old people 509 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 2: with way too much time on their hands. They are 510 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: responding to prievances that are real and imagined, but ultimately 511 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: are powerful motivators for political action. I spend a lot 512 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 2: of time in climate activist circles, and I think constantly 513 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: about how dire climate change is, and how evil the 514 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 2: fossil fuel industry is, and about how nobody is going 515 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: to protect us but us. And I'm seeing a lot 516 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 2: of these sentiments shared in this network against offshore wind, 517 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 2: and disentangling that is going to be really difficult. Lea. 518 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: Stokes put out a phenomenal article this fall about the 519 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 2: term energy privilege, which showed how the communities that are 520 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 2: blocking offshore wind are disproportionately white and wealthy, and they 521 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 2: have energy privilege in that they're perceived harms which are 522 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 2: potentially decreased property values, which are polluted quote view sheds, 523 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: in other words, visibly seeing offshore wind turbines from their homes. 524 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 2: Those harms are such small potatoes, honestly, almost embarrassingly small 525 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 2: potatoes compared to the day to day experience of the 526 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: predominantly black Latine and indigenous communities that foot the bill 527 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: of the fossil fuel industry, those communities that experience oil 528 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 2: refineries that lower life expectancies and give children debilitating asthma 529 00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: that results in extraordinary hospital bills that are given communities 530 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 2: rare cancers through polluted air and water. So it's also 531 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 2: important to not lose sight of what we're fighting this for, 532 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: and there's balance there. We don't want to be sacrificing 533 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: fishing communities like that's not fair to anybody. And that's 534 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 2: what a just transition means. It means protecting and making 535 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 2: safe and communities that are going to have to foot 536 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 2: the bill of a renewable transition, But it also doesn't 537 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 2: mean entirely caving to them so that we preserve a 538 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: fundamentally racist and lethal status quo. So that's one thing 539 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: that you know, when I was wrapping up this project 540 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: and trying to make sense of this all, and you know, 541 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 2: balance certain sympathy that I feel with also an unshakable 542 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 2: belief in the power of renewable energy, in the urgency 543 00:36:53,760 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: of renewable energy, to remember what's happening, what has to happen, 544 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: so that these predominantly white and wealthy communities can avoid 545 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 2: offshore wind and it's debilitating. 546 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is getting that message 547 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 3: to land with people in a way that doesn't put 548 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 3: them on the defensive. It's just tough. The entire history 549 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 3: of America is not one in which we have incentivized 550 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 3: or rewarded people for doing anything for the common good. 551 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 3: And we kind of need people to get there for 552 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 3: the renewable transision to happen. But we haven't done that 553 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 3: culture work. We haven't actually fixed the social contract in 554 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 3: a way that would lay the groundwork for people to 555 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 3: do that. 556 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 6: And now we've got to do all that work really fast. 557 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 6: What I want to do is lead by example. Like 558 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 6: it's clear that we need a politics of pluralism that 559 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 6: we don't have, right, I Mean, all of this movement 560 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 6: is you know, fishing, like the fishing industry versus the 561 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 6: offshore wind projects, the community groups versus the university professors. 562 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 6: You know, we also see them as enemies of progress sometimes, right, 563 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 6: I Mean, And that's not entirely fair either, because we're 564 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 6: all looking out for our self interests in different ways, 565 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 6: and we just make different decisions to decide what that 566 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 6: self interest is right, and steamrolling them is not good 567 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 6: for our democracy or good for our discourse. I mean, 568 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 6: a great way to unleash a national or international lion 569 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 6: of anti offshore wind opposition would be to call them 570 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 6: climate deniers over and over again, or say that they 571 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 6: don't have free will, or say that this is all 572 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 6: some AstroTurf project of Charles Kochan friends. 573 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 3: Right, or accuse them as being like white least, you know, 574 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 3: especially when you have this weird coalition there right of 575 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 3: like working class fishermen and then people who have ocean 576 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 3: front estates. 577 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 2: I know, and you know it's but also leaves difficult decisions, right, 578 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: Like we do need to build these things really quickly. 579 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,959 Speaker 2: We do have scientists on one side of the debate. 580 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 3: Like, there are going to be some trade offs. That's 581 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 3: the thing I really believe we're really allergic to being like, yeah, 582 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 3: there are some trade offs. Let's talk about it and 583 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 3: figure out what are the impacts that we can live with, right, 584 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 3: and how do we equitably distribute them as opposed to 585 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 3: what we've been doing, which is just ignoring the impacts 586 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 3: and letting them fall on the most marginalized people in 587 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 3: our society, you know, it's not like energy hasn't had 588 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 3: impacts before. 589 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just hard, I guess, having spent so much 590 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 2: time in their face groups and media ecosystem, Yeah, it's 591 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 2: hard for them to not feel like they are being 592 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 2: targeted and policy is being imposed on them, social harms 593 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 2: are being imposed on them without their consent. 594 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 3: Yep. 595 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: And that's something that a lot you know, I mean, 596 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: that's that's Nimbeism at its core for surely. 597 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. Have you looked at any comparisons between this and 598 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 3: what happened with fracking, because I feel like the thing 599 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 3: they have in common is it's like the first time 600 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:38,919 Speaker 3: energy externalities were foisted upon white communities basically, I mean 601 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 3: with fracking, it was mostly not wealthy communities, but it 602 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 3: was certainly communities that were like not totally used to 603 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 3: having the refinery down the street kind of problem. There's 604 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 3: all these really interesting use cases where like, like in Pennsylvania, 605 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 3: for example, a bunch of conservative communities ended up coming 606 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 3: around to the idea of rice of nature and like 607 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 3: embedding that in their town charters because all of a 608 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 3: sudden they were like, wait a minute, Like so if 609 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 3: my neighbor decides to go for a lease, but I 610 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 3: don't and my water gets fouled, like I can't do 611 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 3: anything about it, and I don't benefit from the lease. 612 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 3: That's not fair. 613 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 4: You know. 614 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 2: What can I read about that? That sounds super interesting? 615 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 3: I'm going to send it to you because yeah, to me, 616 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 3: I'm like, I see so many parallels between that and 617 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 3: this stuff where it's like we're basically i mean, let's 618 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 3: face it, people don't really think about this stuff until 619 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 3: it shows up in their backyard, right, and then all 620 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 3: of a sudden they think very differently about it they 621 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 3: did before. Like I'm sure none of these people were 622 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 3: like protesting against refineries being built in cancer ally, or 623 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:55,280 Speaker 3: the role. 624 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 2: Of the fishing industry in you know, right whales, right, 625 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 2: Like it's only once they are materially impacted or proclaimed 626 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 2: to be materially impacted by seeing offshore wind turbines do 627 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 2: all of these arguments about things that have actually been 628 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 2: happening the whole time come out. 629 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 3: That's right? Yeah, yeah exactly, And. 630 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 2: We're going to see how it's going to turn out, 631 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 2: because I mean, on one hand, like the offshore wind 632 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 2: industry is going through significant hardship right now. 633 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 3: I know that there was like a chart recently that 634 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 3: showed this massive drop off in offshore wind installations in 635 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 3: the US. 636 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 2: It was like, no, of course the anti offshore wind 637 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 2: groups are claiming victory. It doesn't seem like it's at 638 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 2: all related to them, like this is about supply chain 639 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 2: issues and inflation. But that sort of brought I guess 640 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 2: all that up as like a caveat to remembering that 641 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 2: they are losing like they've especially in New Jersey. They've 642 00:42:54,320 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 2: found right wing politicians to be champions of the fire 643 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 2: against offshore wind, no surprise there, and they are not winning. 644 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 2: There was a special election a couple months ago. There's 645 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 2: a good E and E news article about it. But 646 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 2: that is not playing well overall. And so it also 647 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 2: is going to be interesting to see what happens when 648 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 2: they lose. I mean, you know, they can keep suing 649 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 2: to death, but are they going to move on? Like 650 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 2: is this going to be a new anti wind conspiracy group? 651 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,240 Speaker 2: Like is this going to be like a sustained movement? 652 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 2: Are they going to kind of go home? A lot 653 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 2: of them are really old and retired. Are you familiar 654 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 2: with Gordon g He's the president of West Virginia University, 655 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 2: the one gutting them right now. Yes, yes, So his 656 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 2: ex wife is one of the major players in green 657 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 2: oceans in Rhode Island, Constance g She's in our map. 658 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 2: And that's kind of, you know, apropos of nothing. But 659 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, people who are substantially wealthy and have 660 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 2: been their whole lives, it seems, and are now living in 661 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 2: these beautiful places. What's their real long term political game here? 662 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is interesting. 663 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, so far, they haven't shown to have influence where 664 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 2: it matters. There was a congressional hearing where David Stephenson 665 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,280 Speaker 2: was there, Bob Stern was there, Megan Lapp was there. 666 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 2: They have successfully convinced certain municipalities to pass resolutions opposing 667 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 2: offshore wind, like Little Compton, Rhode Island, but when it 668 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 2: comes to Boham, for example, they're not winning because while 669 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 2: agencies like Boham take into account community input, there's a 670 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 2: whole host of other factors that the anti offshore wind 671 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 2: movement can't address and hasn't been able to address. So 672 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 2: you know, they're not an inconsequential in numbers. I mean 673 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 2: you can there are these photos of all these protests 674 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,320 Speaker 2: with the hold hands along the beaches in New Jersey, 675 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 2: and there's not not a lot of them. But I 676 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 2: don't think they have their hands and the right levers 677 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 2: of power. I mean, they have this one kind of 678 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,879 Speaker 2: random Congressman Jeff Andrew in New Jersey. They've gotten through 679 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 2: a little bit to Jared Golden, who's a Democrat from Maine. 680 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 2: But in terms of actual decision making capability, it's pretty weak. 681 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 2: I mean it's pretty weak. So right now, I'm not 682 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 2: super worried, but with offshore wind industry on the back foot, 683 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 2: and with all of these lawsuits in the works, I 684 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 2: wonder if the industry and advocates will get beaten down. 685 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 2: I just don't entirely see that happening. 686 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 5: LifeLock, how can I help? 687 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 3: The irs? Said, I filed my return, but I haven't. 688 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 4: One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price 689 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 4: of identity fraud? 690 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,240 Speaker 3: What do I do my refront? 691 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 4: Though I'm freaking out, don't worry. 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