WEBVTT - Epstein Files Distraction & ICE Racial Profiling 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.520 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.880 A growing number of lawmakers on both sides of the 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:16.160 isle are calling for the Justice Department to release all 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.880 the files related to Jeffrey Epstein. This despite President Trump's 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.800 efforts to downplay them, calling it a hoax and a scam. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:26.320 It's all been a big hoax. 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:30.520 It's perpetrated by the Democrats, and some stupid Republicans and 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.159 foolish Republicans fall. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.800 Into the net, and so they try and do the 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:39.720 Democrats work. Last Thursday, Trump authorized the Justice Department to 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.040 seek the release of grand jury testimony from the Epstein 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:48.080 prosecution after The Wall Street Journal published a story alleging 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.720 that he once sent a suggestive birthday letter to Epstein. 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:57.000 But some Republicans, like Tennessee Congressman Tim Burchett, are still 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:58.400 saying it's not enough. 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:00.680 I think it's a start. I don't think we're ever 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:02.920 going to get to the bottom of anything, all of it. 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.440 This town doesn't give up its Sacred's very easy. 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.160 Joining me is former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.360 McCarter in English, Bob So. The Trump administration asked a 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:18.600 federal judge to unseal the transcripts in the Epstein case, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.320 this is an unusual motion. Why go through the bother 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.480 of making it? What information would you really be able 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.160 to get from those transcripts? 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.039 Well, there's no question that the release of grand jury 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:37.080 transcripts raises real privacy concerns about not only the victims, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.480 but even individuals whose names may have come up in 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.440 connection with an investigation but were never charged, that would 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.760 not have any opportunities to defend themselves if those names 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.280 were released. The other thing about the grand jury testimony 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.840 that's interesting is that typically the grand jury is used 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.400 for the limited purpose of obtaining an indictment. Now, there 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.040 are certain ccumstances where prosecutors will use a grand jury 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.480 as more of an investigative tool, and in that instance 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.400 you might have more witness testimony in front of a 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.160 grand jury. But for the most part, when you're the prosecutor, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:15.120 the last thing you want to do is put a 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.400 key witness in front of the grand jury, because that 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:19.800 testimony would then have to be turned over to the 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:21.280 defense council at some point. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:22.960 So most of the time. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.400 All of the critical witness interviews take place outside of 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.760 the grand jury, assuming those witnesses are cooperating and they're 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.920 done in front of an FBI agent or another investigative agent, 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.360 and a report is prepared. But that's not grand jury material, 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.760 and that's not the kind of information that will be 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.120 released if a judge indeed decides to release these grand 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.079 jury transcripts. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.600 Even if they release transcripts of let's say an FBI 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:52.080 agent's testimony to the grand jury, you wouldn't see, for example, 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:57.320 the notes of witness interviews or photos anything that's attached 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:57.640 to that. 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.760 No, in fact, it's quite the opposite. When the FBI 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.240 interview is a witness outside of the grand jury, they 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.359 create a report commonly down as an FBI three to 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.720 zero two, and that is a detailed report of what 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.480 a witness says during the course of an interview. But 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.000 when a prosecutor presents is or her case to the 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.840 grand jury, if they put an FBI agent on the stand, 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.720 that testimony will be very focused and will be very summary, 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.560 in the sense that all the prosecutor is looking for 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.600 is enough evidence to show a grand jury that there's 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.080 probable cause that the crime has been committed, and that 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.360 there's enough evidence to move forward with the charges. So 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.600 the reality is, as a prosecutor, you want to present 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.360 as little information as you need in front of the 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.920 grand jury in order to obtain that indictment. 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:46.880 The other thing. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.640 About grand jury testimony is that hearstay is admissible, so 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.000 that agents routinely will go in to the grand jury 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.040 in order to paint an indictment and provide a summary 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.760 of witness interviews. They don't have to provide all the 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.960 d tails, and the witnesses themselves do not have to 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.360 appear to present their testimony in order for the grand 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:08.920 jury or rely on that testimony in deciding whether or 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:10.120 not to return an indictment. 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.640 And Bob talk a little bit about the importance of 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.200 protecting grand jury secrecy. 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.640 So grand juries are covered by something called the Federal 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.919 Rule of Criminal Procedure sixty. It's a rule that every 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.920 federal prosecutor is extremely familiar with, and it prohibits an 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.400 attorney from the government or anybody really who is aware 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:34.320 of matters occurring before a grand jury from disclosing any 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.720 of that information. In fact, when you represent a witness 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.520 who goes to testify before the grand jury, as the lawyer, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.760 even you are not permitted to go inside the grand 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.160 jury only the witnesses, and you can debrief your client 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.760 after they come out, because the witnesses themselves can talk 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.720 about what their testimony was, but nobody else can talk 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.920 about what goes on in the grand jury, not any 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.039 of the grand jurors and not any of the federal prosecutors. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.720 And there's good reason for that. The grand jury is 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.400 an investigative tool. Information is presented to a grand jury 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.120 that may not ever result in an indictment. Charges may 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.120 never be brought. And the concept behind Rule six e 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.960 is that all of those proceedings are secret unless and 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.279 until an indictment is returned by that grand jury. And 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.560 it's done in order to preserve the privacy of victims 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:28.040 and even the privacy of individuals who prosecutors may suspect 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.760 have committed a crime, but ultimately if they're never charged. 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.919 The idea that would be unfair to release damaging information 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.080 about an individual who then never gets their day in 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:40.880 court if they're never charged with a crime. 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.680 What are the reasons that the Attorney General is giving 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.919 for unsealing the grand jury testimony? 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.360 Well, the Department of Justice filed in motion before Judge 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.640 Richard Berman, who was the judge that was handling the 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.240 Epstein case at the time that mister Epstein committed suicide, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.480 and the motion essentially said that disclosure of this grandjury 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:05.040 testimony is necessary given the long standing and legitimate public 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.599 interests in the Jeffrey Epstein case. It's going to be 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.240 interesting to see how the judge handles that request because 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.440 there are many cases that are very high profile of 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.359 which there is long standing and legitimate public interests, and 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.160 typically a judge will. 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.360 Not release that information. Now in the. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.160 Second circuit, which is the Court of Appeal, where any 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.960 decision made by the Trialey judge will ultimately end up, 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.240 the law says judges have inherent authority to release grandeury 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:35.880 materials in what's called special or exceptional circumstances. And what 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.680 that really means is that it is up to the 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.240 discretion of the judge whether or not to release this information. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.599 But it certainly suggests that it is done only in 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.960 the most unusual of circumstances. And then even if information 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.640 is released, it would have to be heavily redacted. And 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.680 by that I mean that the names of victims and 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.680 perhaps even the names of some individuals would be blacked 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.000 out and not released to the public. So the reality 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.000 is that this motion may take some time for the 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.919 judge to decide, and then even if the judge decides 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.880 to release that information, there may be parts of it 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.440 that are blacked out and never released to the public. 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.080 So we really don't know how critical this information ultimately 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.440 will be even if the judge decides to grant the 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:21.160 government's motion. 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.640 There's also the fact that his co defendant, Glaine Maxwell, 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.120 is appealing her conviction to the Supreme Court, and the 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:34.520 Government acknowledged that in their papers, saying, while the Government 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.520 recognizes that Maxwell's case is currently pending before the Supreme Court, 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.320 it nonetheless moves this court for relief due to the 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.280 intense public scrutiny into this matter. So will the judge 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.400 have to weigh, you know, the possible impact on her 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.960 case with the public interest. 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.320 Yes, they're absolutely right, as you said, Ghlaine Maxwell, who 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.680 was the former girlfriend of Jeffrey Epstein, was convicted in 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.960 twenty twenty one on second craftking charges. As she's currently 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.120 serving a twenty years sentence, But as you say, that 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.960 conviction is going up on appeal and the court will 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.880 be mindful of her rights and will try to make 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.960 sure that nothing that is released here ultimately could be 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.200 prejudicial to her. So there's an awful lot for the 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.200 court to weigh in the balancing act of trying to 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.280 figure out what, if any, information should be released. And 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.440 then I think the real interesting question is, even if 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.720 the judge does grant this motion and release some of 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.800 this grand jury information, just how critical will it be 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.040 in terms of answering the questions that seem to be 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.360 motivating the Department of Justice to file this motion for 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.040 the release of grand jury testimony. 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.240 Some are suggesting a special counsel. Trump initially said I 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.439 have nothing to do with that, but then the Press 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.800 secretary said that Trump wouldn't recommend a special counsel. Could 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.720 a special counsel get to the truth here? 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.480 Well, there could be another type of investigator into exactly 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.200 what the Department of Justice did, because there's lots of 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.240 evidence that was gathered during that investigation that is not 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.840 going to be part of grand jury testimony. For example, 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:15.880 there's videos, there's photographs, other recordings, there's texts, there's emails. 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.959 There's an enormous amount of information that was no doubt 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.199 gathered by federal prosecutors during the course of this investigation. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.880 None of that information will be released based upon the 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.360 government's motion. So there's lots of information that's still going 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.200 to be out there, and I think the pressure is 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.920 going to continue to mount to release more information. It is, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.040 I should say, a highly unusual circumstance here. It's highly 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.320 unusual for the Attorney General of the United States to 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.080 be asking a court to unseal grand jury testimony. That's 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.760 even more unusual for the President of the United States 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.360 to be weighing in on that question. So we're in 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.080 a circumstance here where there is not a lot of 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.480 precedence to see how the courts may look at this information. Generally, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.679 the worts are reluctant to release this type of information 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.400 given the privacy concerns that are at stake here, and 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.280 the concept that is simply unfair to release the names 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.959 of individuals who may have been caught up an investigation 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.199 but who are never ultimately charged with a crime. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.880 Is filing to get the grand jury transcripts more of 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.640 a distraction because the information that people seem to be 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.400 looking for is not going to be found in grand 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:31.040 jury transcripts, but rather in the files. The Justice Department has. 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.720 Given the mounting public pressure to release information and connect 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.880 you with this investigation. The decision by the Department of 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.079 Justice to seek the unsealing of the grand jury testimony 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.120 is somewhat unusual because that testimony is going to be 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.000 focused on building the case against Jeffrey Epstein, on the 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:54.320 case against Glaine Maxwell, and specifically on the conduct that 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.200 form the basis of the criminal charges against them, which 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.400 means it's a narrowly foot focused investigation, and the grand 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.440 jury testimony is likewise going to be narrowly focused on 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.800 the evidence that they had to present to the grand 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.640 jury in order to obtain those criminal charges. The remainder 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.120 of the files are going to be much more far reaching. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.920 They're likely to involve other individuals and perhaps other activity 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.400 that never made its way into either of those indictments. 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.439 But then you raise the question of bringing in the 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.320 names of victims and other individuals who were never charged 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:35.080 with a crime, and balancing that against the groundswell of 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.400 public interest to release this information. 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.160 How long could this process take? 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.920 At the end of the day, the government's motion to 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.600 release this grand jury testimony is likely to take some 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.760 time I think who can expect Judge Berman to take 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.080 his time to go through the grand jury testimony and 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.920 to consider what portions, if any, he is going to release. 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.760 And then even if he does release information, it's likely 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.439 it will not satisfy the public's desire to get more 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.160 information about this case because so much of that information 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.480 is likely not information that was ever presented to a 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.920 grand jury. It remains in the investigatory files of the DODA, 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.840 and the real question is will that information ever be released? 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.319 I guess all you can say is we shall see. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:27.040 Thanks so much, Bob. That's former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.440 of Macarter and English. Coming up next on the Bloomberg 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.880 Law Show, we'll take a look at the top immigration issues, 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.840 including the question of whether the Trump administration will be 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.320 able to deny bond to all migrants who entered the 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.240 country illegally. That means they could be in detention for 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.320 months or even years as they fight their deportations, and 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.480 a federal judge says ICE can't use racial profiling in 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.719 carrying out arrests. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.520 The City of laws Autels has been a focus of 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:07.080 the Trump administration's immigration crackdown, with complaints that ICE is 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:12.160 roaming around car washes, home depots, and libraries and targeting 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.920 Spanish speaking day laborers for arrest. Here's La Mayor Karen 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.600 Bass And when. 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.160 The administration came in, they said that they were going 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:25.719 to go after violent gang members, drug dealers, human traffickers. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.160 I don't think that's what's happening at a day labor center. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.079 And home depot. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.520 You know, how do you go from a drug den 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.760 to a home depot parking lot that terrifies people and 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.960 then they run out, chasing them throughout the parking lot. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.720 Well, a federal judge has temporarily blocked ICE agents from 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:50.960 using racial profiling to carry out indiscriminate immigration arrests. Joining 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.040 me is an expert in immigration law, Leon Fresco, a 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.120 partner at Hollnda Knight Leam. Before we even get to 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.320 the legal question these ICE raids that the La Times 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.840 reported that ICE agents have been sort of roaming around 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:09.600 home depots and car washes, stopping brown skins, Spanish speaking 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.320 day labors and others to arrest on immigration charges. Is 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.920 this the way ICE has normally operated or is this 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:17.600 something new. 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:22.240 Well, there have been times in the last twenty five 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.400 years that ICE has operated in this way. But if 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.880 one is looking at the time arc of the last 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.400 twenty five years and said group them into two buckets, 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.080 times that ICE has not operated this way, and times 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.680 that ICE has operated this way over the last twenty 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.080 five years. More often than not, ICE has not operated 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.520 this way. ICE has tried to go after people with 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:51.120 final orders of removal, or people with criminal convictions, or 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:56.960 people in targeted operations where there's something known about the operations, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.800 such as that it's a business that exploits their workers 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.400 or is involved in some sort of trafficking, et cetera. Now, 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.200 there have been times, most notably in two thousand and seven, 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.400 two thousand and eight, in the last part of the 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:14.400 Bush administration, and then beginning points in the Trump administration 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.360 of the first term, where ICE had started to act 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.840 in this manner, going around essentially trying to find people 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.840 it can actually apprehend and place into removal proceedings. And 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.240 this is the new norm. I would say, It's not 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.680 something that is very common over the last twenty five years, 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.600 but it is something that is within their mandate. They're 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.880 permitted to go and try to find people who are 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.480 not here with status and place them under arrest and 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:50.360 place them into deportation proceedings and then actually deport them. Now, 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.160 the problem is going to be the methods of how 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.440 ICE operates. And this litigation is very fascinating in that 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:04.440 this has been a debate between the pro immigration enforcement 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.440 people and the pro what I would call, you know, 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:13.680 relaxation on immigration enforcement people, where they've had this debate 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.080 about what is it permissible for ICE to do in 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.400 these operations? Are their limits to what it can do? 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.200 And that's what was being debated in this case. And 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.360 I think it's ultimately going to have to take the 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.640 Supreme Court to adjudicate these issues. 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.760 So Tom Holman, the Borders Are has said and echoing 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.239 what the government attorney said in this case, that agents 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.360 in deciding whether to stop a person can consider their location, 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:47.040 their workplace, the particular work they're doing, clothing, et cetera. 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.280 But the judge said that she found a sufficient amount 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.760 of evidence that agents were using just that race language, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.880 a person's vocation, or the location they're at, such as 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.760 a car wash, to form reasonable suspicion, and she ruled 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.040 that ICE agents can't rely on those factors. Who do 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:06.040 you think is right here? 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.560 This is the most complicated area of the immigration law 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.120 that one can imagine, because in every other area of 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:19.639 the law, we don't allow our law enforcement to conduct 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.480 a law enforcement based on quote unquote immutable factors because 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.040 we don't like these sort of status crimes. We don't say, 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.040 you know, go after only this race when it comes 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.680 to this crime, or go after that gender, or go 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:41.760 after people with a certain characteristic. We don't do it. It's illegal. 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.600 It's not necessary. You can go after whatever the actual 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.200 violation of the law is. So did you file your taxes? 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.359 Did you steal from the store, whatever it may be, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.280 So you don't have to do this profiling. And so 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:59.320 it's easy to say, if you're profiling, it's illegal, and 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.159 that's the end of it, because the profiling has nothing 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.680 to do with the underlying offense. Is the car stole 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:09.160 and did somebody steal, did somebody not file some document, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.000 whatever it may be. The problem in immigration is this 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.120 is a status offense. You're either here legally or you're 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.800 not here legally. So what are the ndisha of a 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.480 person who's not here legally? It is some of these things. 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.680 You know, are you speaking in certain languages versus other languages. 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.320 Are you engaging in behavior that looks like you're smuggling 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.640 someone at that moment, that kind of thing. Now, obviously 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.000 these things can be taken too far, and for sure 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.480 that's the problem is if you're engaging in this profiling 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.040 in a way where it's aggressive and it's all over 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:49.520 the community, and it's everywhere, and anybody who speaks a 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.240 non English language to their grandmother who happens to be 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.720 here legally, but she never learned English for whatever reason, 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.000 but she's here legally, And now everybody's being arrested because 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.159 the ICE agent hears somebody speaking to their grandmother in 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.200 a different language or something, or ICE arrest a bunch 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.280 of tourists here to see some soccer game or something 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.040 because they don't speak the language. Just like if I 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.200 travel to Europe, I don't speak whatever language I'm in 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.280 in my European country. If I'm suddenly being confronted by 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:22.360 an immigration officer, you know, those are all tough issues. 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.919 And so the question starts to become how that enforcement 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.199 comes into play. What are the constraints, what are not 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.840 the constraints and so I think what the group who 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.199 is suing would say is ICE, you have to be 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.560 operating from a list of people you're looking for and 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.040 go look for them, and then that's how you can 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:49.080 enforce immigration law in America. That's basically what the group 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.720 who is suing is saying. And what ICE is saying 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.320 is that constrains us way too much because that takes time. 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.600 And in addition, every time we try to make lists 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.200 like this, we're being thwarted in various different ways. You know, 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.439 whether we try to make a list of criminals, the 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.640 counties and the cities and the states who are quote 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.160 unquote sanctuary jurisdiction don't allow us to make a list 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.359 of criminals. They don't give us the names of people, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.080 so they make it harder for us to find those people. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.520 So we can't make a list of criminals in these places. 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:24.200 If we try to get a list of people who 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.800 are not using public benefits appropriately, we get thwarted by 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.919 lawsuits that say you can't do that either. And so 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.440 this is the problem. Is ISA is saying, we need 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.840 to be able to arrest somebody, and if people are 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.639 making our lives difficult in terms of the effort and 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.840 the resources and the constraints to make these lists to 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.919 go find people. Then what we'd like to do is 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.840 to be able to question people essentially when we have 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:56.320 a reasonable suspicion that they're not here legally, and ask 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.360 them to produce identification that says they're here legally. This 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.879 becomes super complicated, especially sometimes if you're just a US citizen, 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.160 let's say, going for a jog. You don't have any 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.399 legal duty when you're a US citizen going for a 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.760 job to have any identification on you. But what if 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.000 that means that you get arrested and you're put in 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:18.399 detention for days or weeks until somebody figures out that 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.399 you're in detention and can find the right document for you. 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.520 So all of that becomes very complicated and messy, and 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.520 the courts, I do not envy what they're gonna have 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:33.959 to try to do to ultimately come to a solution 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.920 that's reasonable. I don't think the kind of injunction that 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.000 was issued here will be allowed to ultimately remain in 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.800 its full form, which is essentially that I mean, it 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.560 doesn't exactly say this, but what it is essentially saying 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.720 is I has to know who they're going after before 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.440 they go after that, meaning they have to say, here's 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.639 a piece of paper called John Smith. I'm looking for 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.320 John Smith. I'm going to apprehend John Smith, and I'm 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.240 going to bring John Smith into detention. I don't think 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.359 the ICE is going to be limited to just that, 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:06.840 But the question is what is ICE going to be 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.280 limited to, if anything, and if it's not limited to anything, 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.639 that will also create its own set of complexities. But 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:18.040 I will say this, just if anybody's been paying attention 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.280 to the Supreme Court over the last ten or twenty years, 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.800 they don't like cases where they sort of have to 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.119 guess something up front and issue an injunction. They like 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:32.080 what's called the as applied challenges, where you can actually 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.640 go to them and say a certain behavior and then 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.679 say is this behavior unconstitutional or not. 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:43.520 The Trump administration says it's going to appeal that judge's ruling, 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:48.800 so we'll see what happens there. You mentioned being in detention, 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:54.240 and the Trump administration has declared that immigrants who arrived 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.760 in the US illegally are no longer eligible for a 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:02.919 bond hearing while they're fighting deportation proceedings in court. So 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:09.879 that means mandatory indefinite detention for months or even years 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:11.560 while the cases play out. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.040 Well, a lot of this is going to depend on 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:20.080 the constraints of the space and the funding and everything 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.360