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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: A growing number of lawmakers on both sides of the

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Speaker 2: isle are calling for the Justice Department to release all

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Speaker 2: the files related to Jeffrey Epstein. This despite President Trump's

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Speaker 2: efforts to downplay them, calling it a hoax and a scam.

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Speaker 1: It's all been a big hoax.

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Speaker 3: It's perpetrated by the Democrats, and some stupid Republicans and

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Speaker 3: foolish Republicans fall.

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Speaker 2: Into the net, and so they try and do the

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Speaker 2: Democrats work. Last Thursday, Trump authorized the Justice Department to

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Speaker 2: seek the release of grand jury testimony from the Epstein

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Speaker 2: prosecution after The Wall Street Journal published a story alleging

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Speaker 2: that he once sent a suggestive birthday letter to Epstein.

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Speaker 2: But some Republicans, like Tennessee Congressman Tim Burchett, are still

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Speaker 2: saying it's not enough.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a start. I don't think we're ever

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Speaker 1: going to get to the bottom of anything, all of it.

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Speaker 1: This town doesn't give up its Sacred's very easy.

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Speaker 2: Joining me is former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner

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Speaker 2: McCarter in English, Bob So. The Trump administration asked a

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Speaker 2: federal judge to unseal the transcripts in the Epstein case,

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Speaker 2: this is an unusual motion. Why go through the bother

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Speaker 2: of making it? What information would you really be able

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Speaker 2: to get from those transcripts?

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Speaker 4: Well, there's no question that the release of grand jury

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Speaker 4: transcripts raises real privacy concerns about not only the victims,

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Speaker 4: but even individuals whose names may have come up in

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Speaker 4: connection with an investigation but were never charged, that would

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Speaker 4: not have any opportunities to defend themselves if those names

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Speaker 4: were released. The other thing about the grand jury testimony

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Speaker 4: that's interesting is that typically the grand jury is used

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Speaker 4: for the limited purpose of obtaining an indictment. Now, there

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Speaker 4: are certain ccumstances where prosecutors will use a grand jury

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Speaker 4: as more of an investigative tool, and in that instance

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Speaker 4: you might have more witness testimony in front of a

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Speaker 4: grand jury. But for the most part, when you're the prosecutor,

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Speaker 4: the last thing you want to do is put a

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Speaker 4: key witness in front of the grand jury, because that

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Speaker 4: testimony would then have to be turned over to the

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Speaker 4: defense council at some point.

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Speaker 1: So most of the time.

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Speaker 4: All of the critical witness interviews take place outside of

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Speaker 4: the grand jury, assuming those witnesses are cooperating and they're

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Speaker 4: done in front of an FBI agent or another investigative agent,

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Speaker 4: and a report is prepared. But that's not grand jury material,

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Speaker 4: and that's not the kind of information that will be

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Speaker 4: released if a judge indeed decides to release these grand

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Speaker 4: jury transcripts.

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Speaker 2: Even if they release transcripts of let's say an FBI

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Speaker 2: agent's testimony to the grand jury, you wouldn't see, for example,

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Speaker 2: the notes of witness interviews or photos anything that's attached

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Speaker 2: to that.

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Speaker 4: No, in fact, it's quite the opposite. When the FBI

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Speaker 4: interview is a witness outside of the grand jury, they

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Speaker 4: create a report commonly down as an FBI three to

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Speaker 4: zero two, and that is a detailed report of what

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Speaker 4: a witness says during the course of an interview. But

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Speaker 4: when a prosecutor presents is or her case to the

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Speaker 4: grand jury, if they put an FBI agent on the stand,

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Speaker 4: that testimony will be very focused and will be very summary,

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Speaker 4: in the sense that all the prosecutor is looking for

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Speaker 4: is enough evidence to show a grand jury that there's

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Speaker 4: probable cause that the crime has been committed, and that

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Speaker 4: there's enough evidence to move forward with the charges. So

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Speaker 4: the reality is, as a prosecutor, you want to present

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Speaker 4: as little information as you need in front of the

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Speaker 4: grand jury in order to obtain that indictment.

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Speaker 1: The other thing.

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Speaker 4: About grand jury testimony is that hearstay is admissible, so

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Speaker 4: that agents routinely will go in to the grand jury

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Speaker 4: in order to paint an indictment and provide a summary

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Speaker 4: of witness interviews. They don't have to provide all the

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Speaker 4: d tails, and the witnesses themselves do not have to

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Speaker 4: appear to present their testimony in order for the grand

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Speaker 4: jury or rely on that testimony in deciding whether or

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Speaker 4: not to return an indictment.

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Speaker 2: And Bob talk a little bit about the importance of

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Speaker 2: protecting grand jury secrecy.

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Speaker 4: So grand juries are covered by something called the Federal

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Speaker 4: Rule of Criminal Procedure sixty. It's a rule that every

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Speaker 4: federal prosecutor is extremely familiar with, and it prohibits an

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Speaker 4: attorney from the government or anybody really who is aware

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Speaker 4: of matters occurring before a grand jury from disclosing any

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Speaker 4: of that information. In fact, when you represent a witness

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Speaker 4: who goes to testify before the grand jury, as the lawyer,

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Speaker 4: even you are not permitted to go inside the grand

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Speaker 4: jury only the witnesses, and you can debrief your client

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Speaker 4: after they come out, because the witnesses themselves can talk

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Speaker 4: about what their testimony was, but nobody else can talk

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Speaker 4: about what goes on in the grand jury, not any

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Speaker 4: of the grand jurors and not any of the federal prosecutors.

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Speaker 4: And there's good reason for that. The grand jury is

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Speaker 4: an investigative tool. Information is presented to a grand jury

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Speaker 4: that may not ever result in an indictment. Charges may

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Speaker 4: never be brought. And the concept behind Rule six e

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Speaker 4: is that all of those proceedings are secret unless and

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Speaker 4: until an indictment is returned by that grand jury. And

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Speaker 4: it's done in order to preserve the privacy of victims

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Speaker 4: and even the privacy of individuals who prosecutors may suspect

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Speaker 4: have committed a crime, but ultimately if they're never charged.

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Speaker 4: The idea that would be unfair to release damaging information

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Speaker 4: about an individual who then never gets their day in

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Speaker 4: court if they're never charged with a crime.

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Speaker 2: What are the reasons that the Attorney General is giving

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Speaker 2: for unsealing the grand jury testimony?

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Speaker 4: Well, the Department of Justice filed in motion before Judge

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Speaker 4: Richard Berman, who was the judge that was handling the

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Speaker 4: Epstein case at the time that mister Epstein committed suicide,

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Speaker 4: and the motion essentially said that disclosure of this grandjury

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Speaker 4: testimony is necessary given the long standing and legitimate public

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Speaker 4: interests in the Jeffrey Epstein case. It's going to be

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Speaker 4: interesting to see how the judge handles that request because

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Speaker 4: there are many cases that are very high profile of

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Speaker 4: which there is long standing and legitimate public interests, and

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Speaker 4: typically a judge will.

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Speaker 1: Not release that information. Now in the.

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Speaker 4: Second circuit, which is the Court of Appeal, where any

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Speaker 4: decision made by the Trialey judge will ultimately end up,

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Speaker 4: the law says judges have inherent authority to release grandeury

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Speaker 4: materials in what's called special or exceptional circumstances. And what

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Speaker 4: that really means is that it is up to the

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Speaker 4: discretion of the judge whether or not to release this information.

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Speaker 4: But it certainly suggests that it is done only in

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Speaker 4: the most unusual of circumstances. And then even if information

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Speaker 4: is released, it would have to be heavily redacted. And

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Speaker 4: by that I mean that the names of victims and

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Speaker 4: perhaps even the names of some individuals would be blacked

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Speaker 4: out and not released to the public. So the reality

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Speaker 4: is that this motion may take some time for the

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Speaker 4: judge to decide, and then even if the judge decides

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Speaker 4: to release that information, there may be parts of it

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Speaker 4: that are blacked out and never released to the public.

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Speaker 4: So we really don't know how critical this information ultimately

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Speaker 4: will be even if the judge decides to grant the

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Speaker 4: government's motion.

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Speaker 2: There's also the fact that his co defendant, Glaine Maxwell,

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Speaker 2: is appealing her conviction to the Supreme Court, and the

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Speaker 2: Government acknowledged that in their papers, saying, while the Government

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Speaker 2: recognizes that Maxwell's case is currently pending before the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 2: it nonetheless moves this court for relief due to the

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Speaker 2: intense public scrutiny into this matter. So will the judge

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Speaker 2: have to weigh, you know, the possible impact on her

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Speaker 2: case with the public interest.

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Speaker 4: Yes, they're absolutely right, as you said, Ghlaine Maxwell, who

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Speaker 4: was the former girlfriend of Jeffrey Epstein, was convicted in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one on second craftking charges. As she's currently

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Speaker 4: serving a twenty years sentence, But as you say, that

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Speaker 4: conviction is going up on appeal and the court will

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Speaker 4: be mindful of her rights and will try to make

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Speaker 4: sure that nothing that is released here ultimately could be

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Speaker 4: prejudicial to her. So there's an awful lot for the

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Speaker 4: court to weigh in the balancing act of trying to

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Speaker 4: figure out what, if any, information should be released. And

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Speaker 4: then I think the real interesting question is, even if

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Speaker 4: the judge does grant this motion and release some of

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Speaker 4: this grand jury information, just how critical will it be

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Speaker 4: in terms of answering the questions that seem to be

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Speaker 4: motivating the Department of Justice to file this motion for

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Speaker 4: the release of grand jury testimony.

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Speaker 2: Some are suggesting a special counsel. Trump initially said I

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Speaker 2: have nothing to do with that, but then the Press

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Speaker 2: secretary said that Trump wouldn't recommend a special counsel. Could

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Speaker 2: a special counsel get to the truth here?

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Speaker 4: Well, there could be another type of investigator into exactly

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Speaker 4: what the Department of Justice did, because there's lots of

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Speaker 4: evidence that was gathered during that investigation that is not

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Speaker 4: going to be part of grand jury testimony. For example,

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Speaker 4: there's videos, there's photographs, other recordings, there's texts, there's emails.

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Speaker 4: There's an enormous amount of information that was no doubt

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Speaker 4: gathered by federal prosecutors during the course of this investigation.

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Speaker 4: None of that information will be released based upon the

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Speaker 4: government's motion. So there's lots of information that's still going

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Speaker 4: to be out there, and I think the pressure is

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Speaker 4: going to continue to mount to release more information. It is,

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Speaker 4: I should say, a highly unusual circumstance here. It's highly

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Speaker 4: unusual for the Attorney General of the United States to

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Speaker 4: be asking a court to unseal grand jury testimony. That's

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Speaker 4: even more unusual for the President of the United States

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Speaker 4: to be weighing in on that question. So we're in

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Speaker 4: a circumstance here where there is not a lot of

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Speaker 4: precedence to see how the courts may look at this information. Generally,

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Speaker 4: the worts are reluctant to release this type of information

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Speaker 4: given the privacy concerns that are at stake here, and

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Speaker 4: the concept that is simply unfair to release the names

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Speaker 4: of individuals who may have been caught up an investigation

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Speaker 4: but who are never ultimately charged with a crime.

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Speaker 2: Is filing to get the grand jury transcripts more of

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Speaker 2: a distraction because the information that people seem to be

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Speaker 2: looking for is not going to be found in grand

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Speaker 2: jury transcripts, but rather in the files. The Justice Department has.

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Speaker 4: Given the mounting public pressure to release information and connect

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Speaker 4: you with this investigation. The decision by the Department of

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Speaker 4: Justice to seek the unsealing of the grand jury testimony

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Speaker 4: is somewhat unusual because that testimony is going to be

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Speaker 4: focused on building the case against Jeffrey Epstein, on the

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Speaker 4: case against Glaine Maxwell, and specifically on the conduct that

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Speaker 4: form the basis of the criminal charges against them, which

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Speaker 4: means it's a narrowly foot focused investigation, and the grand

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Speaker 4: jury testimony is likewise going to be narrowly focused on

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Speaker 4: the evidence that they had to present to the grand

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Speaker 4: jury in order to obtain those criminal charges. The remainder

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Speaker 4: of the files are going to be much more far reaching.

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Speaker 4: They're likely to involve other individuals and perhaps other activity

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Speaker 4: that never made its way into either of those indictments.

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Speaker 4: But then you raise the question of bringing in the

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Speaker 4: names of victims and other individuals who were never charged

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Speaker 4: with a crime, and balancing that against the groundswell of

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Speaker 4: public interest to release this information.

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Speaker 2: How long could this process take?

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Speaker 4: At the end of the day, the government's motion to

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Speaker 4: release this grand jury testimony is likely to take some

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Speaker 4: time I think who can expect Judge Berman to take

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Speaker 4: his time to go through the grand jury testimony and

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Speaker 4: to consider what portions, if any, he is going to release.

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Speaker 4: And then even if he does release information, it's likely

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Speaker 4: it will not satisfy the public's desire to get more

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Speaker 4: information about this case because so much of that information

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Speaker 4: is likely not information that was ever presented to a

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Speaker 4: grand jury. It remains in the investigatory files of the DODA,

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Speaker 4: and the real question is will that information ever be released?

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Speaker 2: I guess all you can say is we shall see.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Bob. That's former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz

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Speaker 2: of Macarter and English. Coming up next on the Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: Law Show, we'll take a look at the top immigration issues,

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Speaker 2: including the question of whether the Trump administration will be

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Speaker 2: able to deny bond to all migrants who entered the

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Speaker 2: country illegally. That means they could be in detention for

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Speaker 2: months or even years as they fight their deportations, and

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Speaker 2: a federal judge says ICE can't use racial profiling in

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Speaker 2: carrying out arrests. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: The City of laws Autels has been a focus of

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration's immigration crackdown, with complaints that ICE is

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Speaker 2: roaming around car washes, home depots, and libraries and targeting

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Speaker 2: Spanish speaking day laborers for arrest. Here's La Mayor Karen

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Speaker 2: Bass And when.

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Speaker 3: The administration came in, they said that they were going

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Speaker 3: to go after violent gang members, drug dealers, human traffickers.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's what's happening at a day labor center.

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Speaker 4: And home depot.

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Speaker 3: You know, how do you go from a drug den

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Speaker 3: to a home depot parking lot that terrifies people and

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Speaker 3: then they run out, chasing them throughout the parking lot.

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Speaker 2: Well, a federal judge has temporarily blocked ICE agents from

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Speaker 2: using racial profiling to carry out indiscriminate immigration arrests. Joining

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Speaker 2: me is an expert in immigration law, Leon Fresco, a

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Speaker 2: partner at Hollnda Knight Leam. Before we even get to

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Speaker 2: the legal question these ICE raids that the La Times

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Speaker 2: reported that ICE agents have been sort of roaming around

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Speaker 2: home depots and car washes, stopping brown skins, Spanish speaking

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Speaker 2: day labors and others to arrest on immigration charges. Is

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Speaker 2: this the way ICE has normally operated or is this

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Speaker 2: something new.

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Speaker 1: Well, there have been times in the last twenty five

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Speaker 1: years that ICE has operated in this way. But if

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Speaker 1: one is looking at the time arc of the last

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Speaker 1: twenty five years and said group them into two buckets,

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Speaker 1: times that ICE has not operated this way, and times

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Speaker 1: that ICE has operated this way over the last twenty

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Speaker 1: five years. More often than not, ICE has not operated

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Speaker 1: this way. ICE has tried to go after people with

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Speaker 1: final orders of removal, or people with criminal convictions, or

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Speaker 1: people in targeted operations where there's something known about the operations,

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Speaker 1: such as that it's a business that exploits their workers

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Speaker 1: or is involved in some sort of trafficking, et cetera. Now,

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Speaker 1: there have been times, most notably in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, in the last part of the

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Speaker 1: Bush administration, and then beginning points in the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: of the first term, where ICE had started to act

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Speaker 1: in this manner, going around essentially trying to find people

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Speaker 1: it can actually apprehend and place into removal proceedings. And

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Speaker 1: this is the new norm. I would say, It's not

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Speaker 1: something that is very common over the last twenty five years,

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Speaker 1: but it is something that is within their mandate. They're

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Speaker 1: permitted to go and try to find people who are

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Speaker 1: not here with status and place them under arrest and

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Speaker 1: place them into deportation proceedings and then actually deport them. Now,

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Speaker 1: the problem is going to be the methods of how

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Speaker 1: ICE operates. And this litigation is very fascinating in that

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Speaker 1: this has been a debate between the pro immigration enforcement

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Speaker 1: people and the pro what I would call, you know,

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Speaker 1: relaxation on immigration enforcement people, where they've had this debate

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Speaker 1: about what is it permissible for ICE to do in

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Speaker 1: these operations? Are their limits to what it can do?

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Speaker 1: And that's what was being debated in this case. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's ultimately going to have to take the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court to adjudicate these issues.

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Speaker 2: So Tom Holman, the Borders Are has said and echoing

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Speaker 2: what the government attorney said in this case, that agents

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Speaker 2: in deciding whether to stop a person can consider their location,

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Speaker 2: their workplace, the particular work they're doing, clothing, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But the judge said that she found a sufficient amount

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Speaker 2: of evidence that agents were using just that race language,

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Speaker 2: a person's vocation, or the location they're at, such as

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Speaker 2: a car wash, to form reasonable suspicion, and she ruled

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Speaker 2: that ICE agents can't rely on those factors. Who do

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Speaker 2: you think is right here?

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Speaker 1: This is the most complicated area of the immigration law

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Speaker 1: that one can imagine, because in every other area of

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Speaker 1: the law, we don't allow our law enforcement to conduct

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Speaker 1: a law enforcement based on quote unquote immutable factors because

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Speaker 1: we don't like these sort of status crimes. We don't say,

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Speaker 1: you know, go after only this race when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this crime, or go after that gender, or go

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Speaker 1: after people with a certain characteristic. We don't do it. It's illegal.

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Speaker 1: It's not necessary. You can go after whatever the actual

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Speaker 1: violation of the law is. So did you file your taxes?

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Speaker 1: Did you steal from the store, whatever it may be,

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Speaker 1: So you don't have to do this profiling. And so

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Speaker 1: it's easy to say, if you're profiling, it's illegal, and

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Speaker 1: that's the end of it, because the profiling has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with the underlying offense. Is the car stole

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Speaker 1: and did somebody steal, did somebody not file some document,

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Speaker 1: whatever it may be. The problem in immigration is this

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Speaker 1: is a status offense. You're either here legally or you're

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Speaker 1: not here legally. So what are the ndisha of a

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Speaker 1: person who's not here legally? It is some of these things.

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Speaker 1: You know, are you speaking in certain languages versus other languages.

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Speaker 1: Are you engaging in behavior that looks like you're smuggling

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Speaker 1: someone at that moment, that kind of thing. Now, obviously

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Speaker 1: these things can be taken too far, and for sure

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Speaker 1: that's the problem is if you're engaging in this profiling

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Speaker 1: in a way where it's aggressive and it's all over

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Speaker 1: the community, and it's everywhere, and anybody who speaks a

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Speaker 1: non English language to their grandmother who happens to be

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Speaker 1: here legally, but she never learned English for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: but she's here legally, And now everybody's being arrested because

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Speaker 1: the ICE agent hears somebody speaking to their grandmother in

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Speaker 1: a different language or something, or ICE arrest a bunch

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Speaker 1: of tourists here to see some soccer game or something

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Speaker 1: because they don't speak the language. Just like if I

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Speaker 1: travel to Europe, I don't speak whatever language I'm in

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Speaker 1: in my European country. If I'm suddenly being confronted by

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Speaker 1: an immigration officer, you know, those are all tough issues.

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Speaker 1: And so the question starts to become how that enforcement

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Speaker 1: comes into play. What are the constraints, what are not

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Speaker 1: the constraints and so I think what the group who

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Speaker 1: is suing would say is ICE, you have to be

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Speaker 1: operating from a list of people you're looking for and

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Speaker 1: go look for them, and then that's how you can

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Speaker 1: enforce immigration law in America. That's basically what the group

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Speaker 1: who is suing is saying. And what ICE is saying

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Speaker 1: is that constrains us way too much because that takes time.

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Speaker 1: And in addition, every time we try to make lists

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Speaker 1: like this, we're being thwarted in various different ways. You know,

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Speaker 1: whether we try to make a list of criminals, the

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Speaker 1: counties and the cities and the states who are quote

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Speaker 1: unquote sanctuary jurisdiction don't allow us to make a list

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Speaker 1: of criminals. They don't give us the names of people,

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Speaker 1: so they make it harder for us to find those people.

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Speaker 1: So we can't make a list of criminals in these places.

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Speaker 1: If we try to get a list of people who

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Speaker 1: are not using public benefits appropriately, we get thwarted by

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Speaker 1: lawsuits that say you can't do that either. And so

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Speaker 1: this is the problem. Is ISA is saying, we need

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Speaker 1: to be able to arrest somebody, and if people are

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Speaker 1: making our lives difficult in terms of the effort and

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Speaker 1: the resources and the constraints to make these lists to

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Speaker 1: go find people. Then what we'd like to do is

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Speaker 1: to be able to question people essentially when we have

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Speaker 1: a reasonable suspicion that they're not here legally, and ask

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Speaker 1: them to produce identification that says they're here legally. This

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Speaker 1: becomes super complicated, especially sometimes if you're just a US citizen,

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Speaker 1: let's say, going for a jog. You don't have any

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Speaker 1: legal duty when you're a US citizen going for a

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Speaker 1: job to have any identification on you. But what if

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Speaker 1: that means that you get arrested and you're put in

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Speaker 1: detention for days or weeks until somebody figures out that

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Speaker 1: you're in detention and can find the right document for you.

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Speaker 1: So all of that becomes very complicated and messy, and

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Speaker 1: the courts, I do not envy what they're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to try to do to ultimately come to a solution

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Speaker 1: that's reasonable. I don't think the kind of injunction that

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Speaker 1: was issued here will be allowed to ultimately remain in

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Speaker 1: its full form, which is essentially that I mean, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't exactly say this, but what it is essentially saying

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Speaker 1: is I has to know who they're going after before

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Speaker 1: they go after that, meaning they have to say, here's

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Speaker 1: a piece of paper called John Smith. I'm looking for

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Speaker 1: John Smith. I'm going to apprehend John Smith, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to bring John Smith into detention. I don't think

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Speaker 1: the ICE is going to be limited to just that,

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Speaker 1: But the question is what is ICE going to be

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Speaker 1: limited to, if anything, and if it's not limited to anything,

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Speaker 1: that will also create its own set of complexities. But

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Speaker 1: I will say this, just if anybody's been paying attention

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Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court over the last ten or twenty years,

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Speaker 1: they don't like cases where they sort of have to

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Speaker 1: guess something up front and issue an injunction. They like

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Speaker 1: what's called the as applied challenges, where you can actually

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Speaker 1: go to them and say a certain behavior and then

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Speaker 1: say is this behavior unconstitutional or not.

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Speaker 2: The Trump administration says it's going to appeal that judge's ruling,

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Speaker 2: so we'll see what happens there. You mentioned being in detention,

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Speaker 2: and the Trump administration has declared that immigrants who arrived

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Speaker 2: in the US illegally are no longer eligible for a

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Speaker 2: bond hearing while they're fighting deportation proceedings in court. So

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Speaker 2: that means mandatory indefinite detention for months or even years

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Speaker 2: while the cases play out.

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Speaker 1: Well, a lot of this is going to depend on

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Speaker 1: the constraints of the space and the funding and everything

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Speaker 1: that's available to detain people for removal proceedings. That's been

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Speaker 1: the reason historically why many more people have gotten bond

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Speaker 1: than have been released and have not been in detention

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Speaker 1: than theoretically could have been placed in detention. But let's

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Speaker 1: start with a more fundamental issue, because this is critically important,

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Speaker 1: which is that immigration detention is not criminal detention. And

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Speaker 1: that matters because the courts have held that in immigration,

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Speaker 1: the people going through this system have far fewer rights

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Speaker 1: than people going through the criminal courts because it's not

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Speaker 1: a criminal issue. So you don't have a right to

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Speaker 1: a jury trial, don't have a right to counsel, or

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Speaker 1: any of these things. But why does that matter. That

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Speaker 1: matters because since immigration is in the civil context and

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Speaker 1: not in the criminal context, the government's ability to constitutionally

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Speaker 1: detain someone, meaning you know, keep them locked up their

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Speaker 1: freedom is gone, is much more limited. And the courts

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Speaker 1: have recognized this that in the civil context, there's very

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Speaker 1: few reasons to have people in civil detention, and so

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Speaker 1: what the courts have held is that if there's a

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Speaker 1: statute that Congress has said makes the detention mandatory, which

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Speaker 1: is what happens in cases where people have criminal convictions,

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Speaker 1: the only reason that's currently constitutional is if the detention

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Speaker 1: is brief and targeted enough to get you through the

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Speaker 1: proceeding quickly enough. And they have said, come to us

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Speaker 1: with as applied challenges if the detention is too lengthy

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Speaker 1: in this situation, you know, if you're taking it in

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Speaker 1: a context where it's not a mandatory, statutory thing, and

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Speaker 1: we know it's not because for decades administrations have said

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Speaker 1: this is not mandatory. This is just now something that

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Speaker 1: the administration is deciding to do. They're saying, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to have bond hearings anymore. We're just going to

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Speaker 1: put people in detention. We are taking an optional policy

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Speaker 1: and making it mandatory that people have to be in

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Speaker 1: detention while they're in removal proceedings, at least in the

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Speaker 1: initial hearings. I think courts are going to say that

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Speaker 1: that's illegal, and you have to give people a chance

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Speaker 1: to have bond. Just like if you're going through the

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Speaker 1: criminal process, you can have a bond hearing. So you know,

439
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: there's plenty of people in criminal proceeding for murder who

440
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: are out on bond while the murder proceeding is happening.

441
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: Because what you're looking for is is the person likely

442
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: to commit another crime? Are they likely to abscond, etc.

443
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: Is the bond amount sufficient to make sure they'll come?

444
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: All of those indisha are required also in the immigration context,

445
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: and even more because it's a civil detention, which really

446
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: is not something that the law is very fond of

447
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: as opposed to a criminal detention, and so at least

448
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: in the lower courts, I think this is going to

449
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: be very tough for the administration to put this policy

450
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: in place once the lawsuits get filed and rolling. But

451
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: then again it's going to go up to the Supreme Court,

452
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: and the Supreme Court is going to have to decide

453
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: does the administration have the ability to just change from

454
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: the Again, the previous twenty five years, the norm was

455
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: people who didn't commit crimes could get bond hearings where

456
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: a judge would decide, hey, can you be constrained by

457
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: a high bond and other things such that you're not dangerous,

458
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: you're not a risk of absconding or do you have

459
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: to be placed in detention as opposed to just taking

460
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: away this ability to who give people bond hearings whatsoever,

461
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: which is what this policy does. We will see what

462
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,719
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court does. But in this context, the Supreme

463
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: Court has only allowed it because it was congressionally mandated,

464
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 1: it involved criminals, and it was for a short period

465
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: of time. If this is going to be many, many

466
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: more people and non criminals, and it will be much

467
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: lengthier because you're putting more and more people into a

468
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: system that still, at the least at the moment, has

469
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: the same amount of immigration judges, which means that that

470
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 1: just makes every case longer because you have more people

471
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: going to the same number of immigration judges. I don't

472
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: know if the Supreme Court is going to allow it,

473
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 1: but again we'll have to see if they put any

474
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,959
Speaker 1: constraints on it in advance or do they make it

475
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: again and as applied challenge where people have to come

476
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: in let's say after six months or after a year,

477
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: or after eighteen months and say, hey, I've been detained

478
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: too long when my removal proceedings are pending, let me out.

479
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: That's why we're gonna have to wait and see coming.

480
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: Up a lawsuit over ICE agents arresting people outside immigration court.

481
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg. I've been talking to immigration attorney Leon

482
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: Fresco of Honda Knight about the Trump administration declaring that

483
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: immigrants who arrived in the US illegally are no longer

484
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: eligible for a bond hearing as they fight deportation proceedings

485
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: in court. Leon, the Department of Homeland Security said that

486
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: they revisited their legal position on detention by reinterpreting an

487
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: immigration law from the nineteen nineties. So they're saying that

488
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: under section two thirty five, which says shall be detained,

489
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: they're saying that the interpretation before was inaccurate and it

490
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: means must be detained right.

491
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,959
Speaker 1: And shall be detained means for the purposes of putting

492
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: that into removal proceeding. Meaning what the statue says is

493
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: ICE or Department of Homeland Insecurity, if you find someone

494
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: who's undocumented, detain them, place them in removal proceedings. But

495
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't then say what you do with them after

496
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: you've detained them and placed them in removal forceeedings. Can

497
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: they get out on bond or can they not get

498
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: out on bond, and for the last twenty five years,

499
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: that answer has been they can get out on bond.

500
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: And the reason it has been that they can get

501
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: out on bond is for the reasons I'm saying, which

502
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: is that because the Congress didn't specifically say, like it

503
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: did in the criminal context, you can't release them. So

504
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: here there is no such statute that says you can't

505
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: release them. So you have to say that if Congress

506
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: has a statute in one context that says you can't

507
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: release them, that means that in this other context you

508
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: probably can release them. This is going to be the

509
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: question for the court is can the government constitutionally, in

510
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: the civil context decide to not let people have the

511
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: right to a bond hearing while their immigration proceedings are pending.

512
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: And that's why the policy has been what it's been

513
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: the last twenty five years. Is nobody thought that the

514
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: government could get away with this. But we're going to see.

515
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: We're going to see what the courts say. I don't

516
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: think the lower courts will be friendly towards this position,

517
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: especially in the jurisdictions where it's likely to be challenged,

518
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: but it's possible the Supreme Court will say as they've

519
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: been giving difference in some context to the Trump administration

520
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: and immigration recently, that they are permitted to hold everybody

521
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: in detention that's in the removal process, and then it

522
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: will just be up to the constraints and the number

523
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: of facilities that the Trump administration has. So that's what

524
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: we're going to have to wait and see. But whether

525
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: this detention is constitutional or not will depend on a

526
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: number of factors, which also include how lengthy is the

527
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: detention going to be, and are these people really demonstrated

528
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: to be flight risks, et cetera. And all of this

529
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: is going to be litigated in the court.

530
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: Speaking of litigation, so, as we've discussed before, ICE agents,

531
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: and this has gotten a lot of publicity, ICE agents

532
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: have been arresting migrants who appear at immigration courts for

533
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: previously scheduled hearings. The government will dismiss the deportation proceedings,

534
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: and then when the migrants leave, there are ICE officers

535
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: waiting in the hallway to take them into custody. So

536
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: a group of immigrants and legal advocates filed a class

537
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: action lawsuit last week to stop this. What do you

538
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: think about their chances they're saying they're stripping them of

539
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: rights afforded to them under immigration law and the Fifth Amendment.

540
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: This is another of these very complicated cases, both policy

541
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: wise and legally policy wise, because again, this is a

542
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: place where Ice would say, fine, you don't want us

543
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: racial profiling going to the home depot grabbing people in

544
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: the middle of the three. Here's one of the easiest

545
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: places for us to apprehend people and place them into detention,

546
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: which is in the immigration course. They've already cleared the security,

547
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: they don't have any weapons, et cetera. And you don't

548
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: even want us to do this. That's what they would say.

549
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: From their perspective. The people representing the foreign nationals would say,

550
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,479
Speaker 1: wait a second. These are the people who are following

551
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: everything correctly. They're actually showing up to their court hearing.

552
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: They're not absconding. They have a process. You just don't

553
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: like how long the process is going to take with

554
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: these individuals, so you want to place them into an

555
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: expedited process. And by the way, the end result of

556
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: placing them in this expedited process is that maybe seventy

557
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: or eighty percent of them, after three or four weeks

558
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: of detention, will go right back to the exact scenario

559
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: they were in previously, and only maybe a fifth or

560
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: a quarter of them will be able to be detained

561
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: and deported on an expedited basis because they won't be

562
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: able to meet the initial threshold of even having a

563
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: credible asylum claims. But yeah, some number will. And then

564
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: the question is is the juice worth the squeeze there,

565
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: And that just will depend on where you're looking at

566
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: it from. From the perspective of Ice, if that's an

567
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: extra fifty thousand people they can deport in a year,

568
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: they might say, that's very worth it to us, especially

569
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 1: since we didn't have to go into the community and

570
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: have guns blazing and have armor and all of this.

571
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: But from the perspective of the immigrant Trice community, they

572
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: would say, yeah, But now no one is showing up

573
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: the court. And the whole point is you wanted people

574
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: to show up that the court. They had a case,

575
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: they were making their case. Now they have to make

576
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: a different case. You're violating their due process because you're

577
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: making them change the case that they had for no

578
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: good reason. This is I think another case where I

579
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: think there's likely to be success in the lower court.

580
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: But I think the Supreme Court likely at the end

581
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: of this probably stays any injunction, and behind the scenes,

582
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: what I think they would be debating and contemplating would

583
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: be some sort of context where they say ICE has

584
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: to be able to arrest somebody for something, and for us,

585
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: this is better than the whole depot scenario. And so

586
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: this is where I think these practical realities start colliding

587
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: with the laws. And certainly you wouldn't want to design

588
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: a framework where people were terrified to go to immigration

589
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: court because something bad was going to happen to them,

590
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: even mid process. So the point is, yes, they may

591
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: know that at the final hearing they will either win

592
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: or be deported, fine, so that there's always that, But

593
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: mid process, when you don't even think you have any

594
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: fear of being deported, the fact that you would go

595
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: to court for a check in hearing and be placed

596
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: in detention that same day, I think that's alarming to people.

597
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: And if the result is that people stop going to

598
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: court because of that, then there can be perhaps a

599
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: claim made that says encouraging people to basically end up

600
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: having in absentia removal orders, because that's what happens when

601
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: you don't go to court is you automatically forfeit your

602
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: case and you can be removed because you were in absentia,

603
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: you didn't show off the court, and so that's gonna

604
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: has to be the argument that's made, and we'll have

605
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: to see where the court come out on this.

606
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: Lyne, it seems pretty clear at this point that they

607
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: had said they're going to arrest criminals first. They're arresting

608
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: the worst of the worst. They're not arresting the worst

609
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: of the worst, or even those with criminal records. The

610
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: latest ICE statistics show that June twenty ninth, there were

611
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 2: fifty seven and sixty one people detained by ICE. Seventy

612
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: one point seven percent had no criminal convictions. Why are

613
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 2: they not going after the criminals first as they said

614
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 2: they would.

615
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: It's very hard, it's very time consuming, it's very resource intensive.

616
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: They don't if they go to somebody's houns with a

617
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: criminal case conviction, they don't show up with just one

618
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: ICE agent as you've been seeing. They show up with

619
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: multiple agents, they show up with a warrant. All of

620
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: that takes time and effort and energy to do. And

621
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: when they have one of these huge operations that they publicize,

622
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: it maybe captures two hundred and fifty people, and it

623
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: took many, many agents over many many days, and so

624
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: it doesn't yield the kind of numbers they're looking for.

625
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: They're looking to try to arrest thirty five hundred people

626
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: a day. And if you are trying to arrest thirty

627
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: five hundred people a day and get, you know, into

628
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: a scenario where you're over a million people you're deporting

629
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 1: in a year, then the only way to accomplish that

630
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: is to try to arrest people without criminal convictions that

631
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: you can find in other locations such as ice check

632
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: in court, or people who you know were here legally

633
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: but their status expired because they came in under one

634
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: of the statuses that the Biden administration created, which were

635
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: again you know, these are debates about whether those statuses

636
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: were proper to create or not. But the point is

637
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: these people are well known, they're out in the open,

638
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: they were here legally, they're the easiest to apprehend. And

639
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: so you do have some segment of the restrictionists individuals

640
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: who say that's the people you should be going after.

641
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: You need to get deported. Every single person who came

642
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: in under the Biden administration, whether they came in illegally

643
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: through the border or through one of these programs, and

644
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: I think ICE has taken that rhetoric seriously, and that

645
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: appears to be the large segment of who they're looking

646
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: for are the people who enter, be it illegally or

647
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: legally during the Biden administration, in addition to criminals, but again,

648
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, not the majority of criminals because

649
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: of how resource intensive that process is.

650
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: At this rate, they're not going to reach there are

651
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: one million deportations in a year.

652
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: Well at this rate, that's true. But they've just over

653
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: the last month been given forty billion dollars, which is

654
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: going to take a while to ramp up because they're

655
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: first trying to bring back agents that had retired, So

656
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: that's the first thing they're trying to do that they're

657
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: gonna have to hire new agents. When they did this

658
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: with the Border Patrol under the Bush administration, they had

659
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: a lot of problems hiring people who didn't have criminal

660
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: convictions and weren't otherwise employed in the marketplace. It's not

661
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: this is not the easiest job to recruit people for it.

662
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 1: Because people understand what they sign up to become ICE agents.

663
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: It has a certain wear and tear to it. So

664
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: it's not really the easiest job that the recruit for.

665
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: And so from that standpoint, all of this is going

666
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: to have to be brought up. But as these agents

667
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: and resources start getting brought up, you will see the

668
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: numbers get higher. But then the question is going to

669
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: be fine, as the numbers get higher, now what And

670
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 1: that's where the society starts pushing back. And you're starting

671
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: to see this on that front too. So there's the

672
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: resource constraints on why the numbers are low. Those are

673
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: going to be taken away soon and the resources will

674
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: permit higher numbers of removals. And then the question is

675
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 1: when that's actually being implemented, what's that going to look

676
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: like and feel like in your average big city And

677
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,399
Speaker 1: is there going to be the level of pushback where

678
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: the president himself is getting contacted by numbers of people saying, hey,

679
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: I know you're deporting XYZ, but don't support my person

680
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: and he keeps hearing that over and over again, and

681
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: everybody has a person that they care about, and now

682
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: suddenly you know, it becomes a process where the exception

683
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: swallow up the rule, and that's where we're going to

684
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: have to wait and see what happens there.

685
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and more Americans are souring on Trump's immigration crackdown.

686
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: According to a new CBS news you gov survey, only

687
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 2: forty four percent of Americans approve of Trump's handling of immigration.

688
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: Fifty six percent disapprove. That approval rate is down ten

689
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: points since March.

690
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 1: Obviously, everybody debates who's pulling what and who's getting pulled

691
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,959
Speaker 1: and everything, but just in general, it's fair to say

692
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: that the ramifications of large scale immigration enforcement to the

693
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: level of being contemplated by the administration because people haven't

694
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: actually lived through it and seen it there, are going

695
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: to be just because it is inevitable things about that

696
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: process that makes people uncomfortable, and we're going to have

697
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: to see where the societal alarm bells are.

698
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Leon. That's Leon Fresco of Honda Night

699
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

700
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news is

701
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: honor Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

702
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law,

703
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

704
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time, I'm June Grosso

705
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg