Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories done done.
Speaker 4: Hello, Wow, that sounded like we were singing.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 1: Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.
Speaker 4: I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klink and I'm Liza Traeger.
Speaker 2: We talk SVU true crime and you know, sometimes we
Speaker 2: have guests, sometimes we don't.
Speaker 4: But a constant is we do gab up top. We
Speaker 4: catch up. What's going on? Bitch? What's that? Bitch?
Speaker 2: What's your whole deal?
Speaker 4: Not too much.
Speaker 1: I'm you know, just dealing with Uh, I'm just doing
Speaker 1: life stuff. I guess what am I doing? What is happening?
Speaker 1: An explosive start. Yeah, well, you know, I never watch
Speaker 1: anything because I never have time, so like I'm always like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's on my list, on my list. I did watch
Speaker 1: this interesting documentary sort of true crime film on HBO
Speaker 1: Max called They called him mostly harmless.
Speaker 4: Have you heard of it?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: I have not.
Speaker 1: So my friend Emily recommended it to my text threat
Speaker 1: and was like, it's a really good look at sort
Speaker 1: of Internet culture in a lot of ways around true crime,
Speaker 1: and it's basically, without giving anything away, it's like, this
Speaker 1: guy was found on the Appalachian Trail in a tent.
Speaker 4: He was skin and bones. He was dead.
Speaker 1: He was skin and bones. There was food in his tent,
Speaker 1: there was money in his tent. He was not like
Speaker 1: an indigent person, and no one could identify him, no
Speaker 1: idea on him. No one had reported him missing that
Speaker 1: they could find, and they could not find out.
Speaker 4: Who he was.
Speaker 1: And for two years, these internet sleuth groups like worked
Speaker 1: to identify him. And it's like about the groups and
Speaker 1: also what happens when they identify him.
Speaker 4: It was really interesting.
Speaker 2: Okay, well because the title makes it seem like he's harmful.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say anything. So I didn't even
Speaker 1: really know this. On the Appalachian Trail, when you hike
Speaker 1: it and maybe other big trails in the US, you
Speaker 1: get trail names, so people could call you, you know, like
Speaker 1: Susiq or whatever. Like people just have trail names. So
Speaker 1: this guy's trail name was mostly Harmless, which is also
Speaker 1: the name of a book in the Hitchhiker's Guide to
Speaker 1: the Galaxy series.
Speaker 4: So like when I told Jared what it was called.
Speaker 1: He goes, well, I know where that name is from, obviously,
Speaker 1: because he's like a door who reads. So the name
Speaker 1: is interesting that that's his name. But I don't want
Speaker 1: to give anything else away.
Speaker 2: No, don't give anything away. I do want to watch it.
Speaker 2: I'm very intrigued, and I'm kind of Bravo's been disappointing.
Speaker 2: Is that what I say? I mean, I'm in the Summerhouse.
Speaker 2: I'll always watch watch what happens, but like, I'm over
Speaker 2: Potomac right now.
Speaker 4: I'm so bored.
Speaker 2: Below Deck I'm not interested in, and vander Pump I'm
Speaker 2: not that into. I must watch this recent one because
Speaker 2: Sheena is like so jealous of Arianna and I kind
Speaker 2: of want to watch her talking about Dancing with the Stars,
Speaker 2: but that's already three nights that are I'm not interested in.
Speaker 4: It's kind of.
Speaker 1: Wild, and everyone online keeps talking about how we're headed
Speaker 1: into a Bravo desert like this coming spring, we've got
Speaker 1: Dubai premiering, and there's just like not a lot else.
Speaker 2: Maybe Jersey, but yeah, right now, it's just like Summerhouse.
Speaker 2: And then once the reunions of Beverly Hills and Miami
Speaker 2: and like, what.
Speaker 4: The fuck Bravo Desert Baby, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 2: We have drag race. I want to start succession. But
Speaker 2: also I'm kind of like like, I've just been busier
Speaker 2: in New York. There's just so much to do. I
Speaker 2: have been watching less here. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know on YouTube. I mean, there's a New
Speaker 2: Heights podcast that I obviously have to do. Jason Kelcey retired. Yeah,
Speaker 2: of course I thought about you. Obviously I heard and
Speaker 2: I listen. You know, I'm touched.
Speaker 4: I like it.
Speaker 2: I'm crying to forty minute speech. I don't think so,
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Where did he give a forty
Speaker 2: minute speech? That was his press conference for announcing his retirement.
Speaker 2: Was a forty minute speech?
Speaker 6: Wow?
Speaker 4: And then I Arsley, what up? Arsley? Our listener? I
Speaker 4: think it was her.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure she wrote I love Jason Kelcey because
Speaker 2: when he cries, he won't use a tissue. He wipes
Speaker 2: his tat it was tears with a rag. I just
Speaker 2: love that he uses a rag like me too. Yo,
Speaker 2: It's like it's so funny, but he's you know, it's
Speaker 2: he's emotional and he is very like eloquent, like he
Speaker 2: is good at speaking. But forty minutes you it couldn't
Speaker 2: be me. I wasn't watching. I watched a little tears,
Speaker 2: I watched the hugs. I watched the moments, but like,
Speaker 2: I cannot watch him think his like you know, athletic trainer.
Speaker 2: I can't watch him talk about the defensive teams like
Speaker 2: I just can't. But whatever, you know, I also have
Speaker 2: a name drop. I have a personal name drop. Ooh yeah,
Speaker 2: I was at a table with Gina gershawan excuse me, yeah,
Speaker 2: at the essen l after party of Show Girl's Fame.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a bad thing, babe. Yeah, came over
Speaker 2: to our table with meat Brick and uh we got
Speaker 2: to but I was sauced, so I really have no
Speaker 2: more details. She was in front of me. Casey Musgraves
Speaker 2: was next to me. You know who else I met.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't as intimidated by him as I was
Speaker 2: with Gina Gershan So I straight up went, I know you,
Speaker 2: little boy, like I didn't even there was no worry.
Speaker 4: He's a child.
Speaker 2: He's in the wet, hot American Summer reboots Skyler Gazondo.
Speaker 2: Oh born in nineteen ninety six. I'm not treating him
Speaker 2: like a man.
Speaker 4: Wait, but he's in Righteous Gemstones. Yes, that's what Julie.
Speaker 4: She goes.
Speaker 2: I love Righteous Empsones, can't wait for to come back.
Speaker 2: But I know him from BookSmart the most. And he's
Speaker 2: a twenty seven year old person. And you said, I
Speaker 2: know you, little boy. Oh but I definitely like, I
Speaker 2: wasn't intimidated by him. He seems like a child to me.
Speaker 2: He's very youthful looking, like, yes, he doesn't look twenty
Speaker 2: seven at all. You know, he's playing younger parts. He's
Speaker 2: playing high school parts. He is, for sure, and he's
Speaker 2: very good. He's very good in Righteous Jumpstones. He was
Speaker 2: with his girlfriend and she was great. But I straight
Speaker 2: up like, I think I grabbed it, like I was like,
Speaker 2: I know y, Like I.
Speaker 1: Was very excited. But he was really friendly and nice.
Speaker 1: Oh and he was in Licorice Pizza. I remember that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: I just tried to watch that. It really well.
Speaker 2: You didn't even tell me. Did you get to meet
Speaker 2: Casey or no? No, But I regret it because we
Speaker 2: did get to watch her sing. We watched her sing
Speaker 2: the second song, and it felt amazing and just being
Speaker 2: in the hallways backstage, it is very like theater camp vibes,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, It is like kind of thrilling.
Speaker 2: But at the party, she was standing right next to us,
Speaker 2: and I do wish, I just want you were awesome,
Speaker 2: you know, I do, But I was. I was pretty
Speaker 2: plaster because then I was like, Julia, what was I
Speaker 2: saying to you? And she goes You kept just saying
Speaker 2: I wish you spoke Russian and I didn't understand why,
Speaker 2: and it was just so you could tell me that
Speaker 2: she was behind us. But there must have been a
Speaker 2: better way, and I got there should have been. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 4: I didn't follow through.
Speaker 2: But five am party, you know, got to do a
Speaker 2: little bodega run.
Speaker 1: This is Saturday Night Live in case you don't know
Speaker 1: what Lisa is referring to.
Speaker 4: It was at the program of Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just getting sauced as everyone's working and getting makeup,
Speaker 2: just me and my bestie get hammered. It was really
Speaker 2: fun to just like party and stay out all night
Speaker 2: because I do love what is at dusk?
Speaker 4: Dawn? I like Dawn. You like Dawn? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I love don Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the sun's not
Speaker 2: fully out.
Speaker 4: I like that.
Speaker 1: On Sunday morning when I wake up, I always know
Speaker 1: I'm getting like Dawn Cab video in my stories from Lisa.
Speaker 4: That is it.
Speaker 2: So that's my name drop, I guess for the week.
Speaker 2: You know some legends all around.
Speaker 1: Well, that's great. I'm glad you had a fun time.
Speaker 1: I don't really have much else to report.
Speaker 2: I also like I do treat anytime I get a
Speaker 2: peek of the Chrysler building, I do act like it's
Speaker 2: truly a SuperM like I act like King Kong is
Speaker 2: on it. But every time I see it, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: look at you turn it out and then so that's wow.
Speaker 1: The Chrysler building has like no I would say maybe like,
Speaker 1: oh that's nothing for you, doesn't really do anything for me.
Speaker 4: Well, did you watch Season one Project Runway?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jay the winner, he made a dress inspired by
Speaker 2: the Chrysler building.
Speaker 4: Yes, you remember it.
Speaker 1: I remember somebody making a dress inspired by the Chrysler building.
Speaker 2: It was him, and that dress was so beautiful, and
Speaker 2: I remember being so into it that it was just
Speaker 2: like this thing.
Speaker 4: Implanted in my brain.
Speaker 2: And I do think the lights and everything are really pretty,
Speaker 2: like the Circle, he top, what is it art deco?
Speaker 4: But that is where it started. I would say to.
Speaker 1: Be interesting project runway Okay, okay, because I don't think that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Empire State Building is ultimately kind of ugly.
Speaker 1: I do like seeing thirty Rock because I worked there
Speaker 1: and I loved the show, and you know, everything about
Speaker 1: thirty Rock is like pretty hot to me. But it's
Speaker 1: not as recognizable from like a bird's eye as like.
Speaker 4: You know, the Chrysler Building.
Speaker 2: No, but you know what, I do love and they
Speaker 2: built a second one on driving like to and from Brooklyn,
Speaker 2: like the freeway parts.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: The stained glass water towers, those are like my favorite
Speaker 2: things to see. Those really make me happy.
Speaker 1: You have a tattoo of it, right, I just have
Speaker 1: a random water tower?
Speaker 4: But yeah, oh okay, it would have been crazy.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to sit there for all those colored
Speaker 2: boxes and the whole fun is the stained glass of
Speaker 2: it all. And it's just like I didn't really I
Speaker 2: didn't really see it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: My other friend has a stained glass tattoo of like
Speaker 1: a lamp, and I think I'm merging your two tattoos
Speaker 1: in my mind. Yeah, but I'm curious. I would like
Speaker 1: to see that. Yeah, it's like a childhood lamp or something.
Speaker 1: I'll have her send me a picture. All right, we
Speaker 1: got to get started because we have like a jumbo
Speaker 1: episode for you today.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to shout out.
Speaker 1: You know, we've got our merch shop live at that's
Speaker 1: messed uplive dot com.
Speaker 4: There's a link.
Speaker 1: To shop, and we've got a few of the college
Speaker 1: sweatshirts left. We do have new do you have children detective,
Speaker 1: the t shirt, the mug, the tote, as well as
Speaker 1: a few of the purple sweatshirts. We got the beanie,
Speaker 1: the fanny pack. Guys, Lisa and I both use this
Speaker 1: fucking fanny pack constantly. We've got more of them left.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm wearing our crop sweatshirt right now. I
Speaker 2: only wear our merchant Really, I need help. I need help.
Speaker 2: And today when I took a walk, I wore the
Speaker 2: other purple sweatshirt. Yeah, but also thank you for reminding me.
Speaker 2: I am on the road. So this weekend I will
Speaker 2: be in Philadelphia. Hello, Jason Kelce, come on by, and
Speaker 2: then I'm in Chicago, Nashville. Lots of fun coming up,
Speaker 2: so please come see me. Glitter cheese.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you go to That's messed Up live dot com.
Speaker 1: Also you can go to Lisa. The link that says
Speaker 1: Lisa's website takes you to all of her road stuff.
Speaker 1: And then, real quick, before we get started, I wanted
Speaker 1: to give a shout out to our listener, Lindsey. Your
Speaker 1: sister in law, Natalie told us that you have some
Speaker 1: tough medical stuff going on right now, and we just
Speaker 1: wanted to send you lots of love and strength and
Speaker 1: support and thank you for listening to our pod and
Speaker 1: being so awesome.
Speaker 4: And yeah, that's that. On that, let's get started.
Speaker 1: We have a great episode today. All right, today it's
Speaker 1: raining where I am, it's dark, it's glooming. So we're
Speaker 1: doing cage. Okay, we're doing season eight, episode eight. This
Speaker 1: baby is from two thousand and six. This takes us
Speaker 1: to a little period we call the Beck era. This
Speaker 1: is the Danny Beck era. This is there is no
Speaker 1: Benson in this episode.
Speaker 2: I think this is our first Danny back episode. I
Speaker 2: don't think I'm a mistaken. This is it like we
Speaker 2: have avoided Danny Beck And the thing is Connie and
Speaker 2: Nielsen is beloved, like this is no you know, like
Speaker 2: no shade towards Connie, but like Bec's I don't know
Speaker 2: who's worst, Becker Chester Lake. I don't know if I've
Speaker 2: actually come to terms with that yet, have you No?
Speaker 1: But I will say I think I hated her so
Speaker 1: much at the time because whether or not you like
Speaker 1: Ship Benson and Stabler, she's not Olivia, Like you just
Speaker 1: didn't want her there, like when that was happening, and
Speaker 1: so I remember really not liking her and not liking her,
Speaker 1: but rewatching this episode for today, I was like, she's
Speaker 1: not that bad, and what's crazy She's only.
Speaker 4: In six episodes. I know, I thought she was in
Speaker 4: like two seasons.
Speaker 1: The way we hate on her and the way she's
Speaker 1: like left a mark, I mean, you gotta give it
Speaker 1: to her.
Speaker 4: Like six episodes.
Speaker 1: She caused a lot of hate and a lot of
Speaker 1: people have a lot to say about her.
Speaker 2: Also, I don't think that there would have been such
Speaker 2: a visceral hey if like Stabler didn't want to fuck
Speaker 2: her bones, you know what I mean? Yeah, And that
Speaker 2: him and Kathy were on a break right as Olivia leaves,
Speaker 2: so now he's gonna hook up with some bits, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like right exactly, like they were toying with us. I'm
Speaker 1: not a shipper, yeah at all. I think Olivia deserves
Speaker 1: way better than Elliott. But it was still just like, ugh,
Speaker 1: come on, because by season eight. If they fucked in
Speaker 1: season eight, that would have been fine. Yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have had the hate for him. And I also didn't
Speaker 1: have that perspective exactly in two thousand and six, I
Speaker 1: was like, maybe I would watch it, you know, like
Speaker 1: I was like, I was fine with it. Now I
Speaker 1: know Olivia deserves better. We don't know he leaves for
Speaker 1: ten years, you know, we don't know any of that here.
Speaker 2: But also if they did, it would have ruined the job,
Speaker 2: like it would have ruined Yeah. Their goal is solving crimes,
Speaker 2: and I feel them being in love ruined it. That's
Speaker 2: why I am glad they waited for Caresian Rollins for
Speaker 2: so long.
Speaker 4: And it's a lawyer cop situation.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And now she's even in the you know, professor world,
Speaker 2: so it's like, yes, you know, I feel like being
Speaker 2: married on the job partners is a little match.
Speaker 1: And now that you say that, I'm wondering if maybe
Speaker 1: they created Beck to show people see how this won't work,
Speaker 1: Like you see how this is too complicated, like it won't.
Speaker 2: Work oo, Neil Bear, maybe you know Ricky Tricky, okay,
Speaker 2: to show us out and work. Yeah, because even in
Speaker 2: the lou Diamond Phillips, yes, a former guest, you know,
Speaker 2: what's the guy's named Vincent or whatever.
Speaker 4: But in that you know.
Speaker 2: Like Gaetano, Yeah, Gaetana, like there's a hesitation because they
Speaker 2: have a relationship and because of it, a boy dies.
Speaker 4: So it's like if you're married, that's like so much right. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So anyway, that's our dissertation.
Speaker 1: That's our dissertation on whether you know love can work
Speaker 1: at work in the law enforcement business. This episode is
Speaker 1: it star studded. It's dark, and it's it's a good one.
Speaker 1: So let's start off. The cold open is a van
Speaker 1: driving through the city at night, and it is the
Speaker 1: kind of van that I used to see in New
Speaker 1: York City all the time and go, there's a kidnap
Speaker 1: child in there. Like every time I see these like
Speaker 1: dirty windowless vans, I'm like, oh God, who's in there?
Speaker 1: I always look for like a hand or something, or
Speaker 1: if there's even a little sliver of window, I'm like,
Speaker 1: is there anybody in there? Because the show has warped
Speaker 1: my brain. I don't know if you still have that feeling.
Speaker 2: No, because it's suspicious because if you see one with
Speaker 2: a ton of windows and seats, you go, that's a church. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a volleyball team. Yeah, that's a summer camp field trip.
Speaker 2: That's like whatever. If there's windows, and if it's a truck,
Speaker 2: like there's other there's a minivan, like that is a
Speaker 2: suspicious car and you're getting it on purpose? Yeah, like
Speaker 2: you can't have anyone looking into that, and you need
Speaker 2: all that space for what for what?
Speaker 1: Well, like the guy in this episode rents it out
Speaker 1: for like probably moving purposes and shit, because like I
Speaker 1: don't know, you don't want to put like furniture or
Speaker 1: tools into a van that's gonna have windows that where
Speaker 1: they could smash.
Speaker 4: I guess I'm Devil's advocating.
Speaker 2: I don't know, bullshit, No, no, fuck that for what?
Speaker 2: You would get a U haul for what? Yeah, you
Speaker 2: would get a truck. There's no way, yeah yeah, and
Speaker 2: yeah it is wild. It's like no window, I don't know,
Speaker 2: like even a couple back windows. Like I just don't
Speaker 2: like when it's like full white doors, full white sides.
Speaker 4: I don't like it. You know what you're getting into.
Speaker 2: If you're getting one of those cars that look like
Speaker 2: a cop car, you know what you're doing to people.
Speaker 2: If you're getting a Lamborghini, you know what you're portraying
Speaker 2: to people, Like you are getting a car for a reason. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you have a truck, you're a hic or you're
Speaker 2: a carpenter, like there are connotations to cars.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know, if you're getting a windowless, white long van,
Speaker 2: we think there's a mattress and a woman tied up
Speaker 2: in it.
Speaker 4: That's it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And famously, my dad drove a Dodge Ram van four
Speaker 1: years that he used for his furniture business but would
Speaker 1: also pick us up in it, and sometimes the seats
Speaker 1: weren't in it and he was like, just lean your
Speaker 1: back against my seat.
Speaker 4: We're fine, We're only going four miles, you know.
Speaker 1: So that might have been your life, but it was
Speaker 1: always super cool to have behind all the like Mercedes
Speaker 1: and BMW's at my school for my dad to roll
Speaker 1: up in like a bent up Ram van color red. Okay,
Speaker 1: so my suspicions confirmed in this episode because two little
Speaker 1: kids are in this fucking van and there's a little
Speaker 1: boy who's being quiet.
Speaker 2: And we're right, yeah at this point.
Speaker 1: And then a little girl who is Elle Fanning, who
Speaker 1: is singing some kind of like religious.
Speaker 4: Song you know about you know, waiting in the waters
Speaker 4: or something like that.
Speaker 1: And then Elle Fanning is if You've been living under
Speaker 1: a rock or something. She is the younger sister of Dakota,
Speaker 1: both child actors. She got into the game playing the
Speaker 1: younger version of her sister. She's twenty five years old
Speaker 1: and has sixty five credits, So this girl works, works, works, Okay,
Speaker 1: she's eight years old in this episode and it's like
Speaker 1: her fifteenth credit. Her big things that she's in are
Speaker 1: like The Great and The Girl from Plainville. Those are
Speaker 1: two big things she's done lately. But I actually was
Speaker 1: like racking my brain and was like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I've ever seen her in anything. And then I
Speaker 1: remember Twentieth Century Women, which is a movie that I loved,
Speaker 1: and she's a she's in that.
Speaker 2: And I saw her walking down the street in Soho
Speaker 2: with other women from her family, not Dakota.
Speaker 4: I would have said that I.
Speaker 1: Think that mother was a professional tennis player. When I
Speaker 1: did a quick Wikipedia, it looked like a.
Speaker 2: Mom aunt Grandma Elle like it looked cute. It was
Speaker 2: around the holidays. They were walking to go into mu Meu.
Speaker 1: A multi generational brunch and shopping trump. I love that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: love it. But I wonder if she pays at Mumu
Speaker 1: or not. Oh yeah, because she's like a product girlie, right,
Speaker 1: she's their girl.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Does she just point or is she buying? I wonder.
Speaker 4: I don't think she's buying.
Speaker 1: Maybe she goes into look and then she tells her
Speaker 1: rep like these I want these things. Have them sent
Speaker 1: to my house, because I also doubt she's like wandering around.
Speaker 2: With bad it was Christmas maybe they know, yeah, wandering around.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, she's a little cutie and she's singing to the
Speaker 1: Lord in the back of this van and the driver
Speaker 1: is like, come on, Mark, I can't hear you singing
Speaker 1: the sweet Songs of Jesus and the kid the boy
Speaker 1: glares at him and does not join in. El Fanning
Speaker 1: has just about had it as well. She's like, I'm tired,
Speaker 1: and the guy's like cape singing. She's like, but my
Speaker 1: throat's sore. And he looks back to be like I'm
Speaker 1: the boss, do what I say, And then At that moment,
Speaker 1: we hear a woman's voice in the passenger seat, who
Speaker 1: we do not see, scream watch out, and the van
Speaker 1: swerves to avoid a truck. And then this fucking van
Speaker 1: just drives off a goddamn bridge into the water, like
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's no gates, there's no This thing
Speaker 1: just drives an oops, a daisy turn of the wheel
Speaker 1: just puts this van into either the Hudson or the
Speaker 1: East River. I don't really know where they are. I
Speaker 1: guess they're on the East River because they were on
Speaker 1: their way to Brooklyn.
Speaker 2: So it's terrifying.
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's like, that's not my biggest fear,
Speaker 1: but being in a car, you know, that goes underwater.
Speaker 4: Is one of my biggest fears. In fact, my friend.
Speaker 1: Emily got us all the special tool that you can
Speaker 1: use to crack the window of your windshield. She got
Speaker 1: them forth for like Christmas or some random thing of
Speaker 1: like a year ago, and I have it in my car.
Speaker 1: It's like just this little thing that will like smash
Speaker 1: the window for you if your car goes underwater.
Speaker 4: So incredible. I would get one of those. Yeah, No,
Speaker 4: it is.
Speaker 2: Definitely a fear, but I was thinking, the only people
Speaker 2: that might enjoy it if it's like if you want
Speaker 2: to be spy, like if you want to be Jason Borne. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like Jason Bourne's probably like I'll try that, you know, Houdini.
Speaker 1: Yeah, every time we see it in a movie, I'm like,
Speaker 1: roll your window down really quick, like roll your window
Speaker 1: down really quick, swim out, like, But.
Speaker 4: It is something I think about all the time.
Speaker 2: Yet I love bridges and think they're beautiful, and more
Speaker 2: terrified of tunnels because of a Celevester Stallone movie.
Speaker 1: I believe, Oh yeah, yeah, tunnels are scary.
Speaker 4: So they're in the water getting through this.
Speaker 2: No we're not.
Speaker 1: We're like not even to the credits. We're not even
Speaker 1: remotely to the credits. So this is like v I
Speaker 1: do have to get to a Taylor Swift soul cycle,
Speaker 1: so yeah, we gotta kicking up the pace. So this
Speaker 1: is so terrifying because the kids are screaming, and this
Speaker 1: is where we notice that they are handcuffed into the van.
Speaker 1: They are there's like a bar in front of them,
Speaker 1: they're handcuffed to it, and we hear their screams as
Speaker 1: the van slowly sinks into the water, and I just
Speaker 1: wrote my nightmare in caps in my notes. So now
Speaker 1: it's morning and we're watching this van get like pulled
Speaker 1: out of the water windshield.
Speaker 4: Is Shader.
Speaker 1: Stabler shows up in his wrap around Oakley sunglasses and
Speaker 1: asks Munch what's going on and the passengers, he says,
Speaker 1: got out, but no sign of the driver, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: thank god, the kids got out somehow. So Stabler's like, okay,
Speaker 1: why is this ours? And Munch is like, look a
Speaker 1: little closer, and then brings them over to Mark and
Speaker 1: el Fanning, who are in the back of a cop
Speaker 1: car wrapped in blankets. Munch shows him el Fanning's wrist
Speaker 1: which has this like nasty bloody ligature mark on it
Speaker 1: from the handcuffs, and then neither kid will say a word,
Speaker 1: so obviously this is s for you.
Speaker 4: Territory.
Speaker 1: Iced Tea is now back at the van and shows
Speaker 1: Stabler the source of the marks. They were obviously the
Speaker 1: handcuffs were hanging off the bars. These kids were obviously handcuffed.
Speaker 1: The driver must have freed them. And o'holleran is like
Speaker 1: in the van and he's like, yeah, there were two people,
Speaker 1: a woman with one shoe and a driver with no hair.
Speaker 1: He's got like a two pay and a shoe, so
Speaker 1: it's very it's very three stooges in this van right now.
Speaker 4: Also, did you call him?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 4: Hollerin?
Speaker 6: Did I?
Speaker 4: Oh? My god, for holler O'Halleran is what I meant
Speaker 4: to say. But thank you.
Speaker 1: Stabler's like, we got to get those kids to talk,
Speaker 1: and munch goes looks like somebody already has camera pans
Speaker 1: over to find Danny Beck holding el Fanning.
Speaker 4: They're just chatting the day away.
Speaker 1: She's like, you know, all of a sudden, El Fanning
Speaker 1: is doesn't even care a lick about that ligature mark
Speaker 1: on her wrist.
Speaker 4: She has a new best friend.
Speaker 1: And remember they really zoom into Stabler's face when he
Speaker 1: sees Beck, and you're like, and I remember that this
Speaker 1: is the episode right after Underbelly, which is the episode
Speaker 1: where Beck and Stabler have their little kiss moment. So
Speaker 1: just to give you some background since we have not
Speaker 1: covered Underbelly yet.
Speaker 4: And then we're to the credits.
Speaker 1: So top of act one, the gang is downloading Daddy
Speaker 1: Craigan on what's going on. We find out El Fanning's
Speaker 1: name is Eden. I will start calling her that instead
Speaker 1: of el Fanning, we know the boy is Mark, the
Speaker 1: van was registered to Frank hovis anything on Cinderella referring
Speaker 1: to the lost shoe, And then sit Finn used as
Speaker 1: a slur to suggest that maybe Frank dresses is a
Speaker 1: woman on occasion one of these where the show doesn't hold.
Speaker 4: Up, but you know they've changed.
Speaker 1: But then Munch comes in with a toll booth photo
Speaker 1: of the driver and the woman riding shotgun, and Craigan goes,
Speaker 1: get these faces on the news and let's go talk
Speaker 1: to the kids about it. So now Danny is in
Speaker 1: the Little show Me Where the Bad Man Touched You
Speaker 1: play room that they have on SVU where usually we
Speaker 1: see you know, Benson or Stabler or somebody talking to
Speaker 1: a little kid, And Danny's talking to Eden and she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that woman is my mom. Her name is Alma. And
Speaker 1: the driver she's like she just shrugs, and they're like,
Speaker 1: and what about Mark. She's like, I never saw him
Speaker 1: before last night. So she says, I do have a
Speaker 1: sister named Rosemary, and shout out that is my mom's name.
Speaker 1: She doesn't know what a podcast is, but shout out
Speaker 1: mom to you. Then she pops the question to Danny,
Speaker 1: can I live with you?
Speaker 4: Like immediately?
Speaker 6: Eat?
Speaker 4: It is like I'm obsessed with you.
Speaker 1: It's it's giving me a lot of Hayden Pantier in
Speaker 1: the episode Abuse, how she's obsessed with Benson immediately and
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of you know, attachment immediately. And
Speaker 1: Danny's like, oh, I don't think it's so girl, and
Speaker 1: Eden cuts to the chase, like why you don't like me?
Speaker 1: And then Danny gives this like fakey, of course I
Speaker 1: like you, but like she's not Olivia Benson with this, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it seems a little harder for her. Sabler is
Speaker 1: watching them through the glass. Cragan shows up and Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: well the boy Mark won't say shit, he might not
Speaker 1: even speak English, and Craigan tells him let's have Kwang
Speaker 1: give it a shot. So then Craigan asked Stabler, how
Speaker 1: is Danny doing? Do you see a future for her
Speaker 1: here in SVU? And it's like, can SFU actually stand
Speaker 1: to have another incredibly gorgeous female detective on staff?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Sabler says sure, and Craigan's like, oh, so you hate Olivia.
Speaker 1: I never want to see her again. And Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: since one is that up to me? Like, you know,
Speaker 1: partner whatever, I don't know. He's like acting like too cool,
Speaker 1: like he has no feelings about it. Munch and Finn
Speaker 1: are trying to track down the van driver, Frank, and
Speaker 1: they're talking to Frank's mom. She hasn't seen that dead
Speaker 1: beat and yeas, and she doesn't give a shit about him,
Speaker 1: no one. She never hears about him except when the
Speaker 1: cops come to her house, and then she doesn't want
Speaker 1: the neighbors talking.
Speaker 4: She doesn't want the neighbors in her house.
Speaker 1: So Finn pops in with some men's that he found
Speaker 1: on the clothes line old school, and she goes, oh.
Speaker 4: They must have fallen from a plane going into JFK.
Speaker 1: I mean, this woman has a full excuse for everything,
Speaker 1: and I really like her as a side character. They
Speaker 1: bust into the house because they're like they do some
Speaker 1: kind of shady police work. They're like, did I just
Speaker 1: hear somebody inside? Don't worry, man will protect you. They
Speaker 1: bust into the house, they open the closet and this
Speaker 1: sad man is in the closet hiding with cleaning supplies
Speaker 1: and the mom.
Speaker 4: Goes, how did he get in there. Ye, she's amazing.
Speaker 4: She's so good.
Speaker 1: Frank goes give it up Ma Like, he's like, she
Speaker 1: is winning an oscar And he's like the jig is up.
Speaker 1: And he tells the cops, I save those kids. I
Speaker 1: uncuff them, But I'm not the one that cuffed them
Speaker 1: in the first place. Alma did that. She said if
Speaker 1: she didn't, the kids would try to jump out. Alma
Speaker 1: got out of the van, okay, but it seems like
Speaker 1: didn't care about saving the kids. And he has no
Speaker 1: connection to these kids. He rents out his van. Alma
Speaker 1: hired him to drive them from Albany to Brooklyn. Cut
Speaker 1: to Frank in a holding cell and he's like, can
Speaker 1: I get my van back? It's my livelihood, and Finn
Speaker 1: goes it's called evidence more. Here's a rug to keep
Speaker 1: you warm, and then hands Frank the two pey that
Speaker 1: they found in the van. It's a great moment, but
Speaker 1: does a car ever work again after being submerged in water?
Speaker 1: Like It's like, even if you just like replaced the windshield, Sir,
Speaker 1: I think your van is gone. I don't think you
Speaker 1: can just like put it in rice, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Like I think the car is dead, and.
Speaker 2: We find out Almah's last name is Cordoza.
Speaker 1: But this guy has no address because she just kept
Speaker 1: saying I'll tell you when we get close, and they
Speaker 1: unfortunately hit the river before they got closed. And there's
Speaker 1: no record of Eden or Mark anywhere in the Albany
Speaker 1: area apparently, like no missing persons, school records or anything
Speaker 1: like that. So Danny and Cragan joined Stabler to look
Speaker 1: through the fish bowl at Mark's like non convo with Huang,
Speaker 1: like the kid won't make eye contact, like Kuwang is
Speaker 1: really trying hard. He's like trying to do a game.
Speaker 1: He's drying a house. He asks Mark, like, why don't you.
Speaker 2: Draw the people you live with?
Speaker 4: Maybe a pet?
Speaker 1: And Mark like grabs the pen and just scribbles it
Speaker 1: out furiously. He is not into these psychological games. Then
Speaker 1: Mark says shut up, and he does have an accent,
Speaker 1: so you know, Stabler had mentioned that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: he might not speak English, but he obviously no shut up.
Speaker 4: And then he attacks Huong.
Speaker 1: He goes Adam, knocks him back onto the floor from
Speaker 1: his chair and just keeps telling him to shut up
Speaker 1: over and over again. Beck and Stabler rush in and
Speaker 1: if you've been to our live shows. You've seen this scene.
Speaker 1: It's in a compilation I made of scenes where Elliott
Speaker 1: Stabler gets his ass beat. They pull Mark off of
Speaker 1: Huang and Beck suddenly knows immediately that this kid speaks French,
Speaker 1: and she starts telling him to calm down in French.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is off topic, but it reminded me.
Speaker 2: You said a nod to the live shows. I was thinking,
Speaker 2: so we have performed in Salt Lake City. We are
Speaker 2: fascinated with Mormons. I was doing stand up in Phoenix
Speaker 2: and there was a table of modern contemporary progressive Mormons,
Speaker 2: but all in those little pajamas underneath. Wait, you can
Speaker 2: see those No, of course, I asked them they were
Speaker 2: wearing the garments. They were wearing the garments, but I
Speaker 2: keep forgetting. Yeah, they're called garments. I like, you guys
Speaker 2: were in the little pajamas, and they were. They're not
Speaker 2: all the you know whatever, but they're into it. So
Speaker 2: they're like contemporary but also still wearing the pajamas.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: I wonder if the fashionable white hat lady from our
Speaker 1: Salt Lake show where it was wearing the pajamas.
Speaker 2: I doubt it, no, because she was wearing like skin
Speaker 2: tight pants.
Speaker 4: Yeah, her like tits were out. Yeah, she looks great.
Speaker 2: They were a horny Mormon, yes, yes, but going on missions,
Speaker 2: it is like the Lisa Barlow effect.
Speaker 6: Maybe.
Speaker 2: I asked them if they think Lisa Barlow is considered Mormon,
Speaker 2: and they said, yes, it's a spectrum.
Speaker 1: Okay, I didn't even I never heard the spectrum thing before.
Speaker 1: That's usually not how a lot of religions act, you know.
Speaker 4: Well, no, they're contemporary. They're coming to see us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so I think we just think everyone that
Speaker 2: listens to us is like godless or something.
Speaker 4: But the Mormons are here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're here. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: So Danny's telling him like call metois or whatever in French,
Speaker 1: and Mark does the exact op. He grabs Huang's pen
Speaker 1: off the table and stabs Stabler with it right in
Speaker 1: the chest, Like this kid is strong, Stabler's ripped. He
Speaker 1: just like breaks skin, stabs him puncture wound right there.
Speaker 1: Then Beck goes, I got it, I got it, and
Speaker 1: like comes over with some paper towels and pulls the
Speaker 1: pen out, which, like any counselor in training could tell you,
Speaker 1: is not how you treat a puncture wound, you're supposed
Speaker 1: to like leave it in, stabilize it, and get somebody
Speaker 1: medical attention, not like pull it out like it's gonna gush.
Speaker 4: But anyway, and you're a professional.
Speaker 1: Bit yes, Like I can't believe she didn't know that,
Speaker 1: And she's like, are you gonna faint on me? And
Speaker 1: Stabler looks all woozy and shit. So in the next scene,
Speaker 1: Huang is helping to like clean Stabler's wound or something,
Speaker 1: and Kragan's like, what's what this kid? And Huang's like, immediately,
Speaker 1: won takes zero time to think about it. He goes,
Speaker 1: I think it's reactive attachment disorder. Children deprived of love
Speaker 1: and affection, particularly as infants, have trouble connecting with people.
Speaker 4: And I did look it up.
Speaker 1: The Mayo Clinic defines reactive attachment disorder as a rare
Speaker 1: but serious condition in which an infant or young child
Speaker 1: doesn't establish healthy attachments with parents or caregivers. And we
Speaker 1: did talk about this in the Born Psycho about episode
Speaker 1: a little bit, and we'll talk about it a little
Speaker 1: bit more later. But Beck says, well, that doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like Eden, and Huang's like, yeah, but hers could just
Speaker 1: be manifesting in a different way like Mark withdraws and
Speaker 1: Eden is another kind of a reactive attachment disorder where
Speaker 1: she's indiscriminately affectionate, which I also wrote down reminds me
Speaker 1: of what was happening in abuse with baby Hayden Pantier
Speaker 1: because her rock star mom was just ignoring her all
Speaker 1: the time, so she was forming crazy quick attachment bonds
Speaker 1: with other people like Olivia Benson. So Beck thinks Mark
Speaker 1: is probably from Haiti or West Africa. Huang says kids
Speaker 1: adopted from abroad often have attachment disorders, which adoptive families
Speaker 1: don't realize until they're living with them. And I have
Speaker 1: read about this a lot and heard personal stories of
Speaker 1: people happening with this with like kids from adopted from
Speaker 1: Russia or Eastern European orphanages and stuff like that, where
Speaker 1: they we've talked about it on the pod, like where
Speaker 1: they just don't get touched or like you know, hugged
Speaker 1: or skinned to skin.
Speaker 4: That's like, what's all behind it?
Speaker 1: I feel like, is just like kids needing a lot
Speaker 1: of connection right of the wombs.
Speaker 4: So the gang thinks maybe.
Speaker 1: The kids were getting returned to their adoption agency from
Speaker 1: their adoptive parents, and that's like why they were in
Speaker 1: this van with this Almah.
Speaker 4: They need to find Alma.
Speaker 1: Much found a cab that picked up a woman at
Speaker 1: four am near the river and took her to Brooklyn.
Speaker 4: I mean was she's soaking wet with one shoe. Also,
Speaker 4: I like that, how did you find out?
Speaker 1: Munch and Finn are now knocking on the door to
Speaker 1: the address where she was dropped off, but no one
Speaker 1: is answering. Finn goes around kind of like the side
Speaker 1: of the house and sees like this little sliver of
Speaker 1: glass with like a sad stick figure, like a stick
Speaker 1: figure with a sad face on it, a frownie face,
Speaker 1: And for him, he's like, fuck, there's kids in there.
Speaker 1: So he busts down the door with literally no effort.
Speaker 1: The place looks abandoned, but there's fresh milk in the fridge,
Speaker 1: there's mattresses on the floor, and Finn finds a teddy Bear.
Speaker 4: So where them kids at?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 4: So that's the end of act one. Act two.
Speaker 1: Finn tells Kragan, it looks like dozens of kids have
Speaker 1: been living here based on fingerprints and all this other stuff.
Speaker 4: Probably hair samples or something. Ohal's there.
Speaker 1: He finds a tape with the letters R R B
Speaker 1: handwritten on it and a date from four days prior,
Speaker 1: but it's been smashed. It's like a cassette tape and
Speaker 1: it's been smashed, and Craigan's like, see if we can
Speaker 1: clean it up. I want you guys to go canvas.
Speaker 1: Let's find out who pays the bills on this place.
Speaker 1: And where the hell is Beck? Everyone keeps asking where's Beck?
Speaker 4: Where's Beck?
Speaker 1: Cuts it back at the hospital with Stabler. Guess she
Speaker 1: has her priorities. He's just buttoning up his shirt so
Speaker 1: we can get a little bit of the chest, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's waiting for his tet and a shot, and
Speaker 1: she's just like really complimenting him, like I'm really impressed
Speaker 1: you kept your cool with this pen stabbing thing. And
Speaker 1: he's like, it's just adrenaline, babe, and she's like, still
Speaker 1: it must have hurt. I couldn't have stayed that calm.
Speaker 1: And then they have this like weirdly coded conversation about
Speaker 1: right and wrong and then he holds her hand and
Speaker 1: she goes elliott I and then they get interrupted. Boom
Speaker 1: in walk Kathy and Kathleen's tabler. They're like, Elliott, we
Speaker 1: heard you were stabbed. Craigan gave us the heads up
Speaker 1: what's going on. He introduces Kathy to Danny has his
Speaker 1: new partner, and Kathy's probably like are there not any
Speaker 1: ugly cops they can partner you with? Like why is
Speaker 1: it just like supermodel after supermodel? And Kathy goes, how
Speaker 1: do you do? Which is very nineteen fifties to me.
Speaker 1: I think it's funny she's talking like that, and they're like,
Speaker 1: what happened to Olivia? And he's like she's which is
Speaker 1: so rude to say right in front of the new partner,
Speaker 1: like where's your old partner?
Speaker 4: We liked her?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also they they haven't discussed this, I know,
Speaker 2: but they're separated, right I know, but like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: know she I wouldn't tell Kathleen like that's a big thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah. But he's like, he's like, she's with the Feds.
Speaker 1: Because if you will remember Infiltrated was two episodes ago,
Speaker 1: and that is where Live goes into her persephone Jones,
Speaker 1: you know, undercover persona with the Eco Terrorism Group.
Speaker 4: Very important work.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Beck takes this familiar invasion as an opportunity
Speaker 1: to bounce. She's like, I gotta get out of here.
Speaker 1: Kathleen is shading her dad for getting stabbed by a kid.
Speaker 1: She's like, Dad, you're such a loser. And Beck gets
Speaker 1: one last look at Taifler with his family through the
Speaker 1: blinds on her way out. Now, Beck is at the
Speaker 1: facility where Eden is staying. She's just doing the rounds
Speaker 1: of the hospitals. Eden is asleep, passed out. There's a
Speaker 1: CPS worker there named Lauren White. She's played by Linda Powell.
Speaker 1: She's in six episode. She's also in Responsible and Locum
Speaker 1: and Control like she's in a lot of classics.
Speaker 4: This CPS worker.
Speaker 1: She tells Beck that Mark is at a psych facility
Speaker 1: and unfortunately had to be medicated. Beck is like, wow, well,
Speaker 1: no one's going to take Mark now once they find
Speaker 1: out that he stabbed a cop with a pen. And
Speaker 1: then the two ladies chat about how easy it is
Speaker 1: for kids to get swallowed up by the system. Families
Speaker 1: move fast, bureaucracies don't. And then Beck gets a call
Speaker 1: and it's Craign. So now she's back at the squad
Speaker 1: and she's getting reprimanded. Okay, Daddy Craigs is pissed that
Speaker 1: she went and checked on Stabler and the kids and
Speaker 1: didn't do what he told her to do. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'll head over now, and it's like he's like,
Speaker 1: it's too late.
Speaker 4: CSU is finishing up. What the fuck does she think
Speaker 4: she is? I know?
Speaker 1: Sorry spoiler alert, the last you're going to see it, Beck,
Speaker 1: So Craigan tells her we found out the house is
Speaker 1: owned by the Ignacious Petty adoption agency Munch and Finn.
Speaker 1: We'll talk to him tomorrow, the guy that runs the agency.
Speaker 1: You and Stabler hit up ACS and find out if
Speaker 1: they have any scoop on the sky. And she's like,
Speaker 1: I'll go now, and Craigan's like, actually, bitch, you're gonna
Speaker 1: go home and take a nap, and she does not listen.
Speaker 4: Again.
Speaker 1: We cut to her back at CPS, just fucking bitch,
Speaker 1: slapping Craigan right in his face. And she walks in
Speaker 1: and Lauren White is still there and she's like, it's
Speaker 1: after midnight and she goes, what's the tea on Ignacious Petty?
Speaker 1: Besides the fact that he sounds like a little boarding
Speaker 1: school villain in an old British book about mischief or something,
Speaker 1: and Lauren tells Danny that ACS terminated their contract with
Speaker 1: Petty a year ago, like we used to work with him.
Speaker 1: We cut his contract a year ago. He was one
Speaker 1: of those bad foster agencies. I was telling you about
Speaker 1: confident careless, only about the money. We pulled his license
Speaker 1: and he went into the private adoption business, which doesn't
Speaker 1: do adequate background checks. And it's so cool how unregulated
Speaker 1: that is. So Lauren knows Alma Cordoza as well. She's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we fired her three years ago. Her childcare theories were extreme,
Speaker 1: but she would never follow up, like she sounds like
Speaker 1: just bad at the job. And then I heard she
Speaker 1: was doing consulting for private adoption, and you know, Beck
Speaker 1: puts it together like, oh, maybe with Petty, and Lauren's
Speaker 1: like could be. So the next day, Munch and Finn
Speaker 1: are talking to Ignacious Petty, which is truly such a
Speaker 1: crazy name. He's a hero who brings little babies to
Speaker 1: childless couples like a stork in his own mind. The
Speaker 1: guy's like Alma Cordoza, that doesn't ring any bells, but
Speaker 1: he does acknowledge the house in Brooklyn and says it's
Speaker 1: where new adoptees and their parents can like chill for
Speaker 1: a little bit after the adoption bond and it's cleared
Speaker 1: out right now because he wants to sell it and
Speaker 1: buy another one. So he's got excuses for like the
Speaker 1: reason why this house looks like a full of like
Speaker 1: flophouse that's just like had squatters in it. He doesn't
Speaker 1: recognize the pictures of the children, and he still denies
Speaker 1: knowing Almah when they show him a picture of her,
Speaker 1: and Munch is like, well, then, why do you have
Speaker 1: a picture of Almah on your wall?
Speaker 4: And we like, look at his big wall. He's got
Speaker 4: a picture of her right there.
Speaker 2: Oh good. It's like, you're such an idiot, bro. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love this moment.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Munch threatens to go through the records and this
Speaker 1: guy's like, uh, well, my records are confidential.
Speaker 2: You know what what Ramona Singer on Real Hostways in
Speaker 2: New York, they showed a video over not inviting Sonya
Speaker 2: to her birthday, like telling a woman like, don't invite
Speaker 2: Sonya and then they're like, why did you do that?
Speaker 2: And she denied it at the reunion, even though they
Speaker 2: just watched a clip of her doing it. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: I was about to say, it's like these moments where
Speaker 2: you can't deny the evidence. It's like, what what, It's
Speaker 2: like a cartoon moment, But then I remember, no, Ramona,
Speaker 2: Ramona fought evidence. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think if you're a liar, also, like a habitual liar,
Speaker 1: you just convince yourself of your own lives very quickly.
Speaker 1: So you're like, no, no, I don't know her, like
Speaker 1: and they're like oh yeah. Like so he's a full liar,
Speaker 1: this man and doesn't seem like a good guy. And uh,
Speaker 1: Munch is like, we're going to go through your records
Speaker 1: and he's like, my records are confidential. Munch goes, we'll
Speaker 1: get a subpoenut he's like, lol, my lawyers will crush you.
Speaker 1: Bye bye now, like see you later. So Beck and
Speaker 1: Stable are outside incognito and the because they're doing that
Speaker 1: thing where they bait somebody and then tap their phone
Speaker 1: to see who they'll call first. It's a classic Sview
Speaker 1: procedural trophe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the criminal thinks they've really won. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is a great episode.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you're hiding something and the cops come
Speaker 1: to you, do not call the person immediately. That's like
Speaker 1: you're in cahootswith like because they're tapping your phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because this is a sad episode because it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, the kids in bloody handcuffs, but you know,
Speaker 2: in a van, and obviously things are gonna get worse.
Speaker 2: But a lot of great moments, a lot of great moments.
Speaker 4: The two pey Like, I'm really Cage.
Speaker 2: It's a good one. It's a really good one. Cage
Speaker 2: who knew?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I avoid watching it because it's Danny Beck. Like I
Speaker 2: have seen the Danny Beck episodes, probably the least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely have seen them all a couple of times.
Speaker 4: Of course I'll skip over if it's possible.
Speaker 1: So it turns out what he called was the Lydia Motel,
Speaker 1: which we've heard of before. It's like it's supposed to
Speaker 1: just be kind of like a CD hotel, and there's
Speaker 1: been other like operations that have gone down there with
Speaker 1: this s view and they all head over there, Munch
Speaker 1: and Fin find all in a hotel room there.
Speaker 4: They do the whole housekeeping.
Speaker 1: Like we're here with room service, and in interrogation they've
Speaker 1: got Almah now and she's explaining that she was bringing
Speaker 1: the kids back from Albany because their adoptive parents didn't
Speaker 1: want them anymore. So it's exactly what they suspected. Mark
Speaker 1: was adopted from Haiti and Eden from Ohio. She was
Speaker 1: going to leave them in Brooklyn until they found them
Speaker 1: another home, but she said the accident was Frank's fault.
Speaker 1: She panicked that the kids were going to drown, but
Speaker 1: that She also insists that they were cuffed for their
Speaker 1: own good and says she was trying to help them,
Speaker 1: but never talks about how she didn't help them get
Speaker 1: uncuffed or stay with them after they like drowned.
Speaker 4: She clearly ran because she knew something she's doing is shady.
Speaker 1: So on the other side of the glass, Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: all right, let's shut this guy down, and Beca's like
Speaker 1: sad that these kids are going to go to foster care,
Speaker 1: and She's like, I just can't walk away from this.
Speaker 1: So then Craigan's like, good, get your ass back to work.
Speaker 1: That tape that O'Halloran found, we've got it. It's been resurrected.
Speaker 1: It's back. We're gonna go listen to it. So we're
Speaker 1: in O'Halloran's little, you know, his little lab, and the
Speaker 1: tape was mostly smashed, but he was able to clean
Speaker 1: up and recover two sections of it. It's very bad
Speaker 1: sound quality, but you can clearly make out three adults
Speaker 1: and a young girl and it's fucked up. It's like
Speaker 1: a recording of these adults doing something to this girl
Speaker 1: while she's yelling, I don't like it, I'm hot, you're
Speaker 1: hurting me.
Speaker 2: It's like you you don't love to hear it.
Speaker 1: And the woman on the tape is like, trust us, baby,
Speaker 1: and they call her Rose, and she says she can't
Speaker 1: breathe and she's gasping, and it sounds like a therapy session.
Speaker 4: Like Stable immediately knows what it is. It sounds like rebirthing.
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, they wrap you up and simulate your
Speaker 1: berth again, like you know, and Beck goes, who cares?
Speaker 1: What happened to this girl? And then there's a second
Speaker 1: part to the tape where they realize Rose is it
Speaker 1: moving like it's it's the end, closer to the end
Speaker 1: of the tape, and they're like, okay, Rose, get up, honey,
Speaker 1: and she's not moving and they notice she's thrown up
Speaker 1: and she won't wake up, and it's like, fuck, they've
Speaker 1: killed this girl and they've inadvertently like made a tape
Speaker 1: of it. Like this is so wild, So they go
Speaker 1: back to the house in Brooklyn where the tape was
Speaker 1: originally found and where it was probably made. So Melinda
Speaker 1: is there standing in a hole in the backyard where
Speaker 1: sadly they have found the body of a female nine
Speaker 1: year old and she's been dead only a few days.
Speaker 1: And they show the body like covered with a blanket,
Speaker 1: all this dirt on it, and then just like a
Speaker 1: little like curl of blonde is like poking out from
Speaker 1: underneath the blanket. So it's very sad. At the morgue,
Speaker 1: Melinda is explaining that the cause of death is that
Speaker 1: she's suffocated and aspirated on her own vomit. Plus she
Speaker 1: has bruising on her rib cage and thighs, and it
Speaker 1: looks like she was abused over a prolonged period, but
Speaker 1: not sexually, so silver lining, I guess there's no hits
Speaker 1: on her prints. Beck puts it together that Eden said
Speaker 1: she had a sister named Rosemary, and there is a
Speaker 1: resemblance between this little girl and Eden, so you know,
Speaker 1: let's figure this out. So now Danny has Eden at
Speaker 1: the morgue, to id the body. This seems so so
Speaker 1: sad to do, Like this girl's already so traumatized, and
Speaker 1: it's like, here, come id the body, your last family
Speaker 1: member that you're in touch with. So they show her
Speaker 1: the dead girl on a screen and she goes, that's Rosemary,
Speaker 1: that's my sister.
Speaker 4: It's so sad.
Speaker 1: Melinda puts the sheet back over and she goes, no, wait,
Speaker 1: I want to look. And so elde Fanning is so
Speaker 1: good in this episode, Like she's eight years old and
Speaker 1: she's really playing like you feel bad for her. She's
Speaker 1: obviously had trauma, but she's creepy, you know, she like
Speaker 1: wants to look at her dead sister while she talks,
Speaker 1: you know. So then they're asking her more questions and
Speaker 1: she's just kind of staring at the screen of her
Speaker 1: dead sister and she's like, I.
Speaker 4: Don't remember when I last saw her.
Speaker 1: But she lived in a big house in the country
Speaker 1: with Rita and Bud, and this is like the first
Speaker 1: we've heard of Rita and Bud. She lived there too,
Speaker 1: but I was very bad and I had to be
Speaker 1: sent away to Alma. Rosemary wasn't so bad, so they
Speaker 1: just put her in the cage. So what the fuck
Speaker 1: is happening? What are we talking about? Munch and Finn
Speaker 1: slap a picture of dead blue Rosemary in front of
Speaker 1: Almah and she's like, who's that. They're like, it's Rosemary,
Speaker 1: Eden's sister, and she goes, I wouldn't take Eden's word
Speaker 1: for it. She doesn't really she's a liar. It's like, okay, girl,
Speaker 1: you were really caught. You need to stop blaming an
Speaker 1: eight year old for being a liar. And she's like
Speaker 1: she doesn't understand the difference between truth and lies. And
Speaker 1: they're like, well, DNA says that they're related, so try again,
Speaker 1: and she's like, that doesn't mean they were adopted together.
Speaker 1: She's saying, like it's basically possible that.
Speaker 4: I don't know Rosemary.
Speaker 1: I only know Eden because they might not have been
Speaker 1: adopted together. Alma says she doesn't know Rita and Bud
Speaker 1: and then they play the recording of rose and she
Speaker 1: does not like hearing that recording and she's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know anything, and they're like, look, you're fucked.
Speaker 4: We've got you on kidnapping.
Speaker 1: You're going away for a while, and you think they're
Speaker 1: rough on child killers and men's prisons, women's prisons are
Speaker 1: way worse. So Finn offers a little quid pro quo,
Speaker 1: and Almah says, all right, listen, I don't know who
Speaker 1: this girl is, but I do know one of the
Speaker 1: voices on that tape, and it's a psychologist named doctor Reef.
Speaker 1: So now we cut to doctor Reef's office and they
Speaker 1: play him the tape and are like, yo, that's you, bro,
Speaker 1: And he's like, what happened to the girl? And they're like, well,
Speaker 1: you should know you were there, and he goes, actually,
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I was on speakerphone, like back, you can
Speaker 1: tell I'm not in the room. And he's like, I'm
Speaker 1: not responsible for what happened. I was on the phone
Speaker 1: for only ten minutes. I gave clear instructions. I told
Speaker 1: him to tape it, and everything about this absolutely horrendous
Speaker 1: torture session was on the up and up, according to
Speaker 1: this man. And he says that these two have done
Speaker 1: dozens of rebirthing sessions and that their names are Rita
Speaker 1: and Bud Gabbler of Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 4: New York, near Albany, the Keepsie home of Snookie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just looking at the word Poughkeepsie and
Speaker 1: was like if you were like learning English as the
Speaker 1: second language. Poughkeepsie's gotta fuck you up? Like that is
Speaker 1: a whack ass word. It's like puff keep sot Like
Speaker 1: what it's such a weird word. But it's where Vassar
Speaker 1: is go Poughkeepsie. I've been there once, just to look
Speaker 1: at vasser Stabler and Beck take the old Ford Taurus
Speaker 1: on a road trip up to Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 2: Well, and this guy, the guy doctor Reef, he is
Speaker 2: the dad and in her shoes.
Speaker 1: Oh a blind spot for me? I don't I haven't
Speaker 1: seen that movie.
Speaker 2: Way we got to watch in her shoes? I bet
Speaker 2: you I bet you're gonna cry. Oh, okay, I'll watch it.
Speaker 4: I'll watch it.
Speaker 2: I would love to maybe not maybe, but I think
Speaker 2: you're gonna cry.
Speaker 4: Well, I love Tony Collette.
Speaker 2: It's Tony Collette, right, Tony Collette, Cameron Diaz and brook
Speaker 2: Smith brook Smith and the guy who looks like the
Speaker 2: Scar Brothers.
Speaker 1: Who isn't oh Mark fire scene, yeah, star studded.
Speaker 4: I want to watch it. No, that's a total like weird,
Speaker 4: like why haven't I seen that movie?
Speaker 2: And there's other guys in it that you would like,
Speaker 2: Hold on there's one other guy that I feel like
Speaker 2: you would like. Yeah, it's Charley McLain. I'm so glad
Speaker 2: I was right about that. Oh I love Shirley McLain.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, Oh, we talked to a guy that was
Speaker 2: one of the bad guys.
Speaker 4: Hold on, there's a bad guy. And in her Shoes
Speaker 4: there's not a bad guy.
Speaker 2: Oh there is, but it's like just like a tiny,
Speaker 2: tiny little part. But we did have him on the
Speaker 2: podcast because I asked about it. It was a small part,
Speaker 2: but it was with Cameron Diaz. But Andy Powers, who
Speaker 2: we had on one of your favorite guests, Vulnerable, one
Speaker 2: of your favorite guys.
Speaker 4: I did have a crush on him.
Speaker 2: I did not, And he was oz and he humiliated
Speaker 2: himself in front of Marishka and she was okay with it.
Speaker 4: Do you remember. Yeah, he was great, he was great.
Speaker 4: I loved it.
Speaker 2: He was a great guess. But anyways, Inner Shoes is
Speaker 2: also like an amazing movie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll watch it. We'll watch it.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how we spiraled this out of
Speaker 2: control because of that one man.
Speaker 1: Because the guy that plays doctor Reef is I guess
Speaker 1: in that movie, so I'll recognize him when I see it.
Speaker 1: So Stabler and Beck take the old Ford tourists on
Speaker 1: a road trip up to Poughkeepsie and they pull up.
Speaker 1: The house looks really nice. There's kids playing outside, it's
Speaker 1: like a sunny day. There's a couple kids in wheelchairs,
Speaker 1: there's toys, like, it doesn't look like a sketchy farm
Speaker 1: where you know kids are being mistreated, which we've seen
Speaker 1: before on this show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get.
Speaker 2: I actually get all the farms that house children illegally
Speaker 2: mixed steps.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I do too, I do too, Like when I
Speaker 1: got to this one, I go oh, I thought this
Speaker 1: one was gonna look bad, but it's actually like, looks
Speaker 1: really nice. And when we get there, Rita is none
Speaker 1: other than character actress Margot Martindale, a former neighbor of
Speaker 1: mine who I would see all over my neighborhood in
Speaker 1: New York City and it was always so thrilling.
Speaker 4: I was always like, it's Margot Martindelle.
Speaker 1: It's cool she lives in New York. She was always
Speaker 1: on the Upper Westide. I mean, so did Belzer. I
Speaker 1: used to see Belzer all the time you lived.
Speaker 2: But Bellzer film's here, but Margo, yeah, on film sets often.
Speaker 4: So it's cool that she lives in New York.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I feel like she's like probably when she's
Speaker 1: not filming, she's theater though, right, she seems like a
Speaker 1: real theater lady to me, like that, like that's where
Speaker 1: her true love lies, you know. But Rita doesn't know
Speaker 1: the girls in the picture or about the Brooklyn apartment
Speaker 1: and is doing a huge like playing dumb game. Okay,
Speaker 1: so they're like, we're gonna look around, and she's like, well,
Speaker 1: like her husband's not there yet, Bud's not there. So
Speaker 1: in the bedrooms, everything looks nice, like there's like nice
Speaker 1: shelving beds, like everything looks like really, you know, well appointed,
Speaker 1: Beck counted nine kids in the yard, but there's eleven
Speaker 1: beds in the house, so one for Rosemary and who else.
Speaker 1: Beck starts taking pictures of the room on a damn
Speaker 1: palm pilot.
Speaker 4: To show Eden.
Speaker 1: It just takes you right back to two thousand and
Speaker 1: six and back at the squad. Munch is showing eat
Speaker 1: in the Picks and she points out where she used
Speaker 1: to sleep until she was sent away to Almah and
Speaker 1: they're like, and then what about Rosemary, word did she
Speaker 1: sleep And they're like, no, she didn't sleep in the house.
Speaker 1: She slept there, and they're like outside and then she goes,
Speaker 1: no in the barn. So then cut back to the farm.
Speaker 1: The music is swelling. Beck and Stabler are storming the barn.
Speaker 1: They open one of the horse stalls and there's a
Speaker 1: little boy in a cage in there, which you know,
Speaker 1: drink for the name of the episode, but it's very jarring.
Speaker 4: His name is Joe. He's been in there for two days.
Speaker 1: He said he was bad, but he doesn't want to
Speaker 1: get in troubles, so he doesn't even really want to
Speaker 1: talk to the detector.
Speaker 4: Get out. And then right at that moment, Bud comes
Speaker 4: home and then he's.
Speaker 1: Like, this is private property, and it's like, dude, the
Speaker 1: jig could not be more up. Like there's a boy
Speaker 1: in a cage. It's not private property anymore. Like it's
Speaker 1: a crime scene. And he's like, the kid's in the
Speaker 1: cage for his own good. And then they arrest his ass.
Speaker 1: Rita's like he did nothing wrong, and it's like, ma'am,
Speaker 1: come on. Stabler goes, hey, ladies, shut up and get
Speaker 1: your ass out there. You're under arrest too. And I
Speaker 1: would have loved to have asked Margot mark Dale about
Speaker 1: like where being screamed at by Elliott Stabler ranks in
Speaker 1: her illustrious career, like it must be towards the top,
Speaker 1: like you know, she's so good. But Stabler gets Joe
Speaker 1: out of the cage, he looks very afraid. It's it's
Speaker 1: very sad. So now we've got bud and Rita, which
Speaker 1: I keep saying butt and rita, and it really does
Speaker 1: remind me of the bud Light straw barita, which I
Speaker 1: did drink one of them at a Jay Z concert
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn one time, so it is coming kind of
Speaker 1: full circle.
Speaker 2: There was definitely a summer where those were a big.
Speaker 4: Part of my life. Yeah, yeah, strawberritas. Yeah, the way
Speaker 4: they write it is really weird.
Speaker 1: It's like straws one word, burr is one word, Rita's
Speaker 1: one word. It's really wild. But you know, I love
Speaker 1: sugary drinks, so those were right up my alley.
Speaker 2: Bud reminds me of Hank Kazaria's character and Now and Then,
Speaker 2: which I think is another one of your blind spots.
Speaker 4: Another one that's on the list.
Speaker 1: God, it's like I just watched HBO, so I've seen
Speaker 1: like just one of the guys forty five times.
Speaker 4: But then I've never seen some se Midal movies of
Speaker 4: the time period. Well, I've never even heard of just
Speaker 4: one of the guys. I've told you about it.
Speaker 1: It's the one where the girl wants to go to
Speaker 1: a better high school, so she dresses as a guy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then she like falls in love with her
Speaker 4: rest friend.
Speaker 2: Okay, you talk about the cover she's holding the footballs over.
Speaker 4: Yes, because the cover is the two volleyballs over her tits.
Speaker 1: But but or like I'm trying to think, what's another
Speaker 1: like My Blue Heaven, or like all these movies I
Speaker 1: used to watch over and over and over again instead
Speaker 1: of being like, how about this new one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I still do that to this day. I
Speaker 2: know it's like My Blue what not My Blue Heaven?
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen that?
Speaker 4: No, I'm googling it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Steve Martin, Rick moranis Joan Cusack. It's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies of all time. It's a
Speaker 1: Clank Family classic. We have to watch it. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: we have to watch Okay, you're watch Oh my god,
Speaker 1: you really come.
Speaker 2: I love My Blue Heaven.
Speaker 1: It's so silly and Carol Deborah Rush, Oh yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's got a great cast.
Speaker 4: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: So a comedy about a government witness who gives Suburbia
Speaker 2: a culture shock.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, Basically Steve Martin plays this like ridiculous gangster
Speaker 1: type and they put him in witness protection like in
Speaker 1: the Burbs, and he's got to act like he's normal
Speaker 1: there and he can't do it. And it's really funny.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm giggling at just the description. So Okay,
Speaker 1: bud Light Straberita is in interrogation and they are the
Speaker 1: parents of the year. They're like, we love our kids,
Speaker 1: we only put them in cages when nothing else worked.
Speaker 1: Joey was trying to hurt other kids, So we cut
Speaker 1: to a kid in a wheelchair talking about how Joey
Speaker 1: tried to push him down the basement stairs, which is
Speaker 1: very savage to push any child down the stairs, but
Speaker 1: especially one that's already in a wheelchair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the wheelchair is going to cause some additional
Speaker 2: damage flying down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Rita said, you have to forgive Joey because
Speaker 1: he's mixed up. And so I don't know, I can't
Speaker 1: tell if this really happened or if the kid's been
Speaker 1: put up to the story.
Speaker 2: I really don't know.
Speaker 1: Now we're back to Straberita stablers like, you guys are
Speaker 1: just in a the money. You get eight thousand dollars
Speaker 1: a month from Social services in Albany, and Bud's like,
Speaker 1: we adopt handicapped children that no one else will touch,
Speaker 1: and he says that costs money. So he's, you know,
Speaker 1: saying the eight k a month is just to support
Speaker 1: which I would say eight k a month no matter
Speaker 1: where you live, to support nine to eleven children and
Speaker 1: each other that you know, that's not exactly. I don't
Speaker 1: think they're driving a rolls or anything. So now we
Speaker 1: cut to Huang talking to this little girl named Ronda,
Speaker 1: and they're like, did your parents beat you? And she's like, yes,
Speaker 1: all the time with a shoe and then he goes,
Speaker 1: did it ever stop? And she goes, yeah, when Bud
Speaker 1: and Rita adopted me, they're nice. And then Huang is
Speaker 1: really confused because he assumed the shoe beating was Bud
Speaker 1: and Rita, but it was actually her Bio parents, I think,
Speaker 1: and she loves Butt and Rita. So back to them.
Speaker 1: Rita is denying knowing who Rose is. I don't know
Speaker 1: who that is. And Beck is like, bitch, her name
Speaker 1: is Rose, we found her in a hole in the
Speaker 1: ground and you killed her.
Speaker 4: Stop the whole.
Speaker 1: I don't know her, Mariah thing. It's not happening, we know,
Speaker 1: you know. And so like now Rita's ready to stop
Speaker 1: the charade. Then Bud says, there's no record of a
Speaker 1: girl named Rose living with us, and it's like, how
Speaker 1: is that true?
Speaker 4: Either? Like I just want to know how.
Speaker 1: I guess it's like what they were talking about with
Speaker 1: these bureaucracies and things move and these private adoptions can
Speaker 1: be sketchy, but like, how is their zero record of
Speaker 1: this girl living with them?
Speaker 4: Like it's like did.
Speaker 1: They destroy it after they killed her or did they
Speaker 1: never get it because they thought they might kill it?
Speaker 1: Like what why would you not have any record? And
Speaker 1: then Rita is now ready to stop the charade. She's like,
Speaker 1: everything we did we did out of love. And they're like,
Speaker 1: those are your voices on the tape, admit it. And
Speaker 1: then Bud's like, gimme a lawyer, So they lawyer up,
Speaker 1: Staybler and back walk out, and Craigan and Novak are
Speaker 1: standing there and they've got some bad news. The tape
Speaker 1: is out apparently because this tape is edited, it's considered manipulated,
Speaker 1: so it can't be used as evidence. There's no proof
Speaker 1: it's a full and accurate account of what happened. The
Speaker 1: defense could say in the missing section, an alien came
Speaker 1: down and squashed her with a pumpkin, like obviously Novak's
Speaker 1: being sarcastic, but you know, there's just there's no context
Speaker 1: if it's just two separate clips, and there's no way
Speaker 1: to connect that the girl in the yard is even
Speaker 1: the girl on the tape, Like I guess besides voice,
Speaker 1: i'd Casey fought for it, but the judge threw the
Speaker 1: tape out and then and there's no record that Rose
Speaker 1: ever lived with Button Rita, and all the other kids
Speaker 1: say that Butt and Rita are great and they just
Speaker 1: want to go home with them, which leaves us with Eden,
Speaker 1: and Beck's like, no way, I'm not traumatizing her again,
Speaker 1: and Novak is like, all right, well, I want to
Speaker 1: put the speakerphone doctor on the stand, so let's get
Speaker 1: him in his shoes and into court.
Speaker 4: So now we're in court, and it looks.
Speaker 1: Like Button Rita do know how to get away with
Speaker 1: murder because they hired fucking Viola Davis as their defense attorney.
Speaker 1: She is Donna Emmett and you know iconic defense attorney
Speaker 1: on the show. She's been in seven episodes in seasons four, six, eight, nine,
Speaker 1: and ten, So happy to see her. I'm also here
Speaker 1: to say I love the movie Widows.
Speaker 4: Loved it.
Speaker 1: I think Viola Davis is the powerhouse and I loved Widows.
Speaker 1: Not like it's her best work. It's just a fun one,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think people try to shit on it,
Speaker 1: and I'm here to say I love it.
Speaker 2: So Doctor Reef is on the stand.
Speaker 1: He is the psychologist that phoned into the you know,
Speaker 1: exorcism or whatever, the rebirthing, and he's explaining how he
Speaker 1: gave Butt and Rita advice on the rebirthing. So what
Speaker 1: went wrong? And he goes they were arrogant. They heard
Speaker 1: Rose crying for air and they believed it was working.
Speaker 1: And so Casey sits down. Now it's Viola's shot. She
Speaker 1: asks the doctor why he was helping them, and he
Speaker 1: explains that but and Rita were scared of Rose. She
Speaker 1: had attacked them twice with a knife, and some nights
Speaker 1: they locked her in a room so that she wouldn't
Speaker 1: hurt them. While they slept, so then Viola Davis says
Speaker 1: she has records of their injuries, but Casey's like, bullshit,
Speaker 1: why weren't they reported? And the doctor's like, well, they
Speaker 1: didn't want Rose institutionalized. And Novak is like, well, too
Speaker 1: fucking bad. She might be still alive if she was institutionalized.
Speaker 1: And then the judge is like, settle down, Novak, and
Speaker 1: Viola asks the doctor if and the doctor is Vincenzo
Speaker 1: from It takes too just fyi.
Speaker 4: Viola asks the.
Speaker 1: Doctor are you familiar with the work of doctor tront
Speaker 1: and he is, and she wants to play a video
Speaker 1: of doctor Tronik's work to the jury so they can
Speaker 1: understand the claim that the two adults could be threatened
Speaker 1: by a child.
Speaker 2: I don't really get how that works here.
Speaker 1: The judge does allow it, and the video is portraying
Speaker 1: a real thing. This is the still face experiment by
Speaker 1: an actual doctor named doctor Tronic. It's a real thing,
Speaker 1: and it shows a mother engaging with her baby, playing,
Speaker 1: talking to the baby. The baby is happy, and then
Speaker 1: the mother goes still. The mother just doesn't move, her face,
Speaker 1: goes still, does not interact with the baby or give
Speaker 1: any kind of lover affection or any reaction at all,
Speaker 1: and just ignores the baby. The baby tries to engage,
Speaker 1: tries to make contacts.
Speaker 2: This reminds me of like a twenty twenty experiment, I know,
Speaker 2: a guy like getting real with John Sassel.
Speaker 4: What was do you remember I loved twenty twenty?
Speaker 2: Like they would always trying to do something on a
Speaker 2: two way mirror to show that, like a baby is.
Speaker 4: Gonna eat the muffin or not?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, like marshmallow experiments and shit with kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I guess when they don't get a response from
Speaker 1: the parent, the baby is left feeling very alone, and
Speaker 1: eventually they pull back physically and then emotionally. I don't
Speaker 1: really see how showing this baby you don't there's actually
Speaker 1: like no proof that Rose grow up like that. There's
Speaker 1: no like, where's the proof that that's what led her
Speaker 1: to pull a knife on them twice? Like it just
Speaker 1: there's a lot of disjointedness in this episode. I feel
Speaker 1: with the plot no offense, Neil, if you're listening, we
Speaker 1: love you. It just like isn't. Lots of stuff's not
Speaker 1: making sense to me. But I'll get to more of
Speaker 1: my questions later. So kids like Rose, he says, are
Speaker 1: born to addicted or absent parents.
Speaker 4: Again, do we know which one?
Speaker 1: No, her natural affections were burnt out, and then instinct
Speaker 1: becomes about survival. A lot of psychiatrists think these children
Speaker 1: are untreatable. The question is do you put her into
Speaker 1: an institution where she'll be medicated and catatonic, or do
Speaker 1: you try to bring her back to life? And that's
Speaker 1: what the rebirthing is supposed to do. So Casey gets
Speaker 1: her chance on redirect and she goes, so, okay, are
Speaker 1: we cool with it sitting on a kid till they
Speaker 1: throw up and choke and die? And he goes no,
Speaker 1: and what about burring them in a dirty blanket in
Speaker 1: the backyard?
Speaker 4: All good?
Speaker 1: And he's like no, and then she's like Novak out.
Speaker 1: So she gets her little redirect, but it still doesn't
Speaker 1: look great. He doesn't look like a slam dunk against
Speaker 1: Butt and Rita. So Novak walks out with Beck and
Speaker 1: she's like, look, I really need you to use your
Speaker 1: relationship with Eden to get her to tell the truth
Speaker 1: about Butt and Rita. Like she's all we have. All
Speaker 1: these other kids are either lying or they are actually
Speaker 1: having a great time.
Speaker 4: Who knows.
Speaker 1: Maybe the really complacent kids who don't have behavior problems
Speaker 1: are not getting abused. Maybe that's true, but that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean anything in terms of their guilt. So Beck is
Speaker 1: now talking to Eden and she's like, you're going to
Speaker 1: have to tell the truth about Rita and Butt in court.
Speaker 1: And she's like, Okay, they put a hose in my
Speaker 1: mouth and turned it on until water came out of
Speaker 1: my nose. But that doesn't seem like we're trying to
Speaker 1: protect ourselves from your sociopathic behavior, you know, that seems
Speaker 1: like just torturing kids. They're like, they took away Charlie's
Speaker 1: wheelchair for two days so he had to crawl on
Speaker 1: the floor. And they made Joe eat his own barf.
Speaker 1: Oh it's bad, it's bad. It's not good. Like up
Speaker 1: until now, I've been kind of like, oh, maybe poor
Speaker 1: Margot Martindale is just like desperate because she can't handle
Speaker 1: these kids.
Speaker 2: She thinks are going to kill her in her sleep.
Speaker 2: But no, they're bad people. Well, and you don't have
Speaker 2: to adopt all these kids they're foster Like, you don't
Speaker 2: have to, now, you know what I mean? You can
Speaker 2: you can get half of them, Yeah, if that's too many.
Speaker 4: It's right, you know.
Speaker 2: So did you see them hurt Rose?
Speaker 1: She asks Eden, and Eden says no, I never really
Speaker 1: saw Rose because she was in the cage. And she's like, well,
Speaker 1: how did you know about the cage and she said
Speaker 1: because Rita showed it to me one time as a threat.
Speaker 1: And they were like, well, what did you do to
Speaker 1: get punished? And she said, I didn't finish my food.
Speaker 1: So it's like they're not even doing crazy shit, but
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just so sad.
Speaker 2: It's like, not finishing your food? What are we talking about?
Speaker 4: So she's scared that butd and Rita will be in court.
Speaker 1: She's like, they come here to visit the other kids
Speaker 1: and they give me mean looks, like they look like
Speaker 1: they want to kill me too, and Beca's like, I'll
Speaker 1: protect you, and she goes all right. Eden knows her
Speaker 1: f bargaining chip. She goes, I'll do it if I
Speaker 1: can stay with you, and Beck is like, girl, that's
Speaker 1: not gonna work out, and she's like please, please, please,
Speaker 1: Like she's like, but.
Speaker 4: Just while I'm in court, just during my court stuff,
Speaker 4: can I come.
Speaker 2: Live with you?
Speaker 1: And I guess they just allow kids to go home
Speaker 1: with any cop if they're beautiful. And now we're at
Speaker 1: Beck's apartment and she's setting up a sofa bed for Eden.
Speaker 1: We're about to do a sleepover. Eden's like, do you
Speaker 1: have a husband? And She's like, oh, he died, and
Speaker 1: then she tucks her in. They have a cute little
Speaker 1: like tickling moment, tucks her in really tight, and it's
Speaker 1: like they do have a cute little dynamic these two.
Speaker 1: And I like to see this traumatized child have you know,
Speaker 1: a little light in her eyes for a second. But
Speaker 1: the next thing we see is Beck waking up in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, just like sensing something, and
Speaker 1: Eden is standing over her, going, I can't sleep, like
Speaker 1: just eyes kind of like zongked, like a little bit zombish.
Speaker 1: And then the couch behind her in the living room
Speaker 1: is fully on fire, like Beck's living room is a blaze,
Speaker 1: and Eden is staring at the flames like children of
Speaker 1: the Corn style, just like staring at them. So Beck
Speaker 1: grabs a fireisher and Eden in one arm, fire extinguisher
Speaker 1: in the other. I don't know how to even use
Speaker 1: a fire distinguisher with both my hands, but this woman's
Speaker 1: doing it single handedly, and Eden is screaming, let me go.
Speaker 1: I want to die, like screaming, screaming. So it's wild
Speaker 1: because this is all you wanted, was this sleepover. So
Speaker 1: we don't really know why you're, you know, torching the
Speaker 1: opportunity for it to even last a second night. So
Speaker 1: in the hospital, Beck is like, why did you do this?
Speaker 1: And she's like, so you'd never leave me, So okay,
Speaker 1: now we have her mental rationale of a traumatized eight
Speaker 1: year old why she was set this fire. And Danny's like,
Speaker 1: but you could have killed us both, and she goes,
Speaker 1: then we'd be together. So she's hyper on the other
Speaker 1: side of connection from what Mark was, which was like
Speaker 1: totally not not participating. So Stabler shows up at the
Speaker 1: hospital room window. Beck says I'm sorry and leaves, and
Speaker 1: Eden's like, where are you going, Danny? And then she's
Speaker 1: so sad she like puts her head back on the pillow,
Speaker 1: like she knows she kind of like fucked up this
Speaker 1: chance set this little relationship with this adult that she trusted.
Speaker 1: And Stable tells Beck that the jury found Butt and
Speaker 1: Rita guilty of criminally negligent homicide and they'll get a
Speaker 1: max of two years, which is wild. Danny is having
Speaker 1: a breakdown about how depressing this all is. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm a fixer. I can't fix Eden. I thought I could.
Speaker 1: And then she asked Stabler, how do you keep doing
Speaker 1: this job? And he's like, because I have to, and
Speaker 1: she's like, why we don't make a difference, and he goes, Danny,
Speaker 1: you can do this, and she goes, are you asking
Speaker 1: me to say? And he says, Danny, I can't, Like
Speaker 1: you have to do this for you, not for me.
Speaker 1: And then she realizes like, oh, I'm getting caught up here,
Speaker 1: like I'm not going to stay in this unit where
Speaker 1: I clearly am not really cut out for the work
Speaker 1: because I take it home too much and I'm too
Speaker 1: like attached to it and for this guy that I
Speaker 1: kissed one time, that maybe I'm looking for a replacement
Speaker 1: for my dead husband. So she goes yeah, and then
Speaker 1: she goes by Elliot and Elliot looks kind of shook
Speaker 1: as he just watches her walk down the hallway. And
Speaker 1: that's a series wrap on Danny Beck, and that's stick
Speaker 1: Wolf Baby, and that's the last we see of little
Speaker 1: miss Beck until I saw her, Until I saw her
Speaker 1: as Wonder Woman's mom.
Speaker 2: I never saw her again. Yeah, this was a great episode.
Speaker 2: I should stop avoiding watching it. I always just get
Speaker 2: so sad.
Speaker 1: But I guess it is kind of like, like I guess,
Speaker 1: it's just like there's a lot of like whys in
Speaker 1: this episode, like yeah, if you have this sketchy lady,
Speaker 1: that'll just take the kids back to other adoption places,
Speaker 1: just do that. Like I don't know, it just felt
Speaker 1: like there was just a lot of holes in it
Speaker 1: of like the why to me, like I wasn't really understanding,
Speaker 1: but you.
Speaker 4: Know, Gonsikos, that's why. Yeah. All right, well I have
Speaker 4: some bad news for you.
Speaker 2: Two crimes that are very close to the episode. Okay, So,
Speaker 2: like I said, there are two crimes. The first one
Speaker 2: is about Candace Newmaker. Candace was ten years old when
Speaker 2: she died on April nineteenth, two thousand and This is
Speaker 2: one day after a therapy session at a clinic in Evergreen, Colorado.
Speaker 2: She was being treated for reactive detachment disorder aka the
Speaker 2: inability to form loving relationships because of early trauma. Obviously,
Speaker 2: we've talked about it, and the diagnosis multiplied a bunch,
Speaker 2: and Kara mentioned this because of adoptions from Eastern European
Speaker 2: countries and all these orphans were arrived in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: nine and they were traumatized as fuck, and uh yeah,
Speaker 2: so and you know, till this day, Russia doesn't allow
Speaker 2: you know, the US to adopt, Yeah, because people are wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we did, like, if you're wondering, like, why
Speaker 1: does this sound familiar? I touched on this briefly when
Speaker 1: we covered Born Psychopath, but Lisa has done more of
Speaker 1: a deep dive, so I'm interested to hear more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so hopefully not too much overlap. But so basically
Speaker 2: what happened to Candace was she was wrapped in a
Speaker 2: sheep to simulate a womb while four adults pushed up
Speaker 2: against her with pillows and all this shit, and this
Speaker 2: is the worst. Their hope was that she was going
Speaker 2: to emerge reborn to bond with her adoptive mother, Jean Newmaker.
Speaker 2: So her biological mother lost custody of her in North
Speaker 2: Carolina over issues with neglect, and she was having difficulty
Speaker 2: forming a love bond with this adoptive mother. And for me,
Speaker 2: it's like be patient, you dumb bitch, Like what are
Speaker 2: you talking about? You know what I mean? Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: she's gone through trauma. You're just a random woman. Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what you like. The expectations on how
Speaker 2: a child's going to reac I don't know.
Speaker 4: It just bothers me.
Speaker 2: So Candace became a ward of the state at age
Speaker 2: five after being taken from her birth mother twice, and
Speaker 2: the North Carolina records are sealed, but what the La
Speaker 2: Times did figure out was she had an angry father,
Speaker 2: a troubled mother, constant moves, domestic disturbance, calls, poverty, and
Speaker 2: then her parents separated. So that's like kind of the
Speaker 2: general vibe without being able to get into the records
Speaker 2: on Candace, but this Gene Newmaker woman, it was just
Speaker 2: her dream to give and receive love. She was forty two, single,
Speaker 2: living alone, and she adopted a six year old girl.
Speaker 2: But she did not get what she wanted from Candace.
Speaker 2: And this is where it's fucked, Like she adopted a
Speaker 2: child for herself, but I guess that's what you did.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's like, fuck you. You know,
Speaker 2: that's like a lot of expectations on a kid. Now.
Speaker 2: For four years, she did try a lot of other therapies, medications, doctors,
Speaker 2: like in North Carolina, she was doing tons of stuff
Speaker 2: before she turned to this remote town thirty miles west
Speaker 2: of Denver called Evergreen, and like, was this really for
Speaker 2: Candace or was this for the mother who longed to
Speaker 2: be hugged? So this attachment disorder thing is often suggested,
Speaker 2: but maybe it's not. Like maybe it's just parents being
Speaker 2: too strict, or they have poor child wearing skills or
Speaker 2: hold unreasonable expectations, or they just don't match well with
Speaker 2: their kids.
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean that the ca it has like a
Speaker 4: full blown issue.
Speaker 2: So there are people who do not believe in this
Speaker 2: attachment disorder at all and think like, maybe you're just
Speaker 2: a shitty parent.
Speaker 4: So that's just something to add.
Speaker 1: I also just like, don't I'm not a psychologist. I
Speaker 1: don't know about the attachment disorder, but like the rebirthing,
Speaker 1: it's like I could see like an adult being into
Speaker 1: this kind of thing, because you can, like adults can
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, people do all kinds of
Speaker 1: woo woo shit where it's like I'm being reborn, But like,
Speaker 1: how does a ten year old that's being squashed feel reborn?
Speaker 1: Like they don't understand birth really as a concept.
Speaker 4: Like they don't.
Speaker 1: Why would that change suddenly, why would they come out
Speaker 1: and feel different from a squash?
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't this doesn't even make sense with that.
Speaker 2: This makes no sense, Like, it doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1: It would make sense to me to do that to
Speaker 1: like an adult or somebody that had more like could
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, I am in my mother's womb, I
Speaker 1: am rebeing born, Like yeah, if you can, if you
Speaker 1: can like sort of be older. But for like a child,
Speaker 1: this doesn't I don't get it. They're like someone hurting me.
Speaker 4: No, it seems like abuse.
Speaker 2: I'm sure the kid is like yeah, yeah, like the
Speaker 2: pains is over, Like yeah, that's why you don't hate
Speaker 2: your kids, because they don't get it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like kids don't get things. It's a baby brain.
Speaker 4: I don't know. It's it's really fucked up. It gets
Speaker 4: more fucked up. So whatever.
Speaker 2: So this Evergreen Place, it's the epicenter of therapy for
Speaker 2: reactive attachment disorder. There's fourteen attachment therapists with six clinics
Speaker 2: in a town of only eight thousand people RAD okay,
Speaker 2: and this RAD situation is described often as kids. So
Speaker 2: here's just more details on this. The disorder. It means
Speaker 2: like they're really charming on the outside born psychopath definitely,
Speaker 2: but they're terrors on the inside behind closed doors. So
Speaker 2: they're manipulative kids. They know how to resist, defy, and
Speaker 2: they want to maintain control. That is their number one goal.
Speaker 2: And these parents get none of the good stuff, and
Speaker 2: it's just like violent outburst emotional outbursts. So it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, there's ups and downs with parenthood, and they're saying,
Speaker 2: like a lot of these kinds of parents, they only
Speaker 2: get the bad with no positive things. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: So this isolates the parents and it makes them feel
Speaker 2: like they're the problem. Maybe they are, and they're just
Speaker 2: seeking validation in a way because these parents feel so isolated.
Speaker 2: I do feel like these I mean, these therapists aren't
Speaker 2: even real therapists. I can't wait to get into it.
Speaker 2: But you know, these parents just feel so fucking alone.
Speaker 2: They don't know what to do, and they just want
Speaker 2: to be validated that something is wrong with their kid.
Speaker 2: They want an acknowledgment that there's a problem with their child.
Speaker 2: They want a name for it. So this town and
Speaker 2: these therapists did this for Gene when she found out
Speaker 2: about rad all the symptoms hit, you know, inability for
Speaker 2: affection and love. There was lack of eye contact, extreme
Speaker 2: defiance and anger extreme. But like, doesn't the kid have
Speaker 2: a right to be angry? Their life sucks, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? They were a views and now some
Speaker 2: woman is like, hug me. Extreme control problems, manipulative, yeah, charm,
Speaker 2: lack of conscious. Once she saw all the traits, she
Speaker 2: found a bonanza online. That's not my word, that was
Speaker 2: in the article bonanza, but I thought.
Speaker 4: I'd use it.
Speaker 2: She found websites, discussion groups, chatrooms, links, clinics, you know,
Speaker 2: other parents that related to her parents who made the
Speaker 2: journey to Evergreen. And the creator of this Evergreen place
Speaker 2: is Foster Kline, a child psychiatrist in the early nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2: He came up with this notion of attachment disorder. What
Speaker 2: he called it was rage and reduction therapy. So basically,
Speaker 2: you get these kids raged up, you goat them, you
Speaker 2: confront them. You physically, like, none of this sounds good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you physically restrain the kids. You pin them down, you
Speaker 2: rub knuckles into their ribs. You get them in a rage.
Speaker 2: And the goal was to outpower the powerful and to
Speaker 2: force psychological engagement and surrender when a child would rather
Speaker 2: withdraw or retain control. What I don't even know what
Speaker 2: I just said. I hope you boys understood it. So basically,
Speaker 2: it's like raging up a kid and then they get
Speaker 2: it all out and then they surrender, and then they
Speaker 2: give love and cradle in the arms of someone after
Speaker 2: you beat.
Speaker 4: The shit out of them.
Speaker 2: Jesus Klein called it the joy of surrender. And also
Speaker 2: no hard proof this method works, no legitimate research to
Speaker 2: its effects. It's just a catch all phrase and everything
Speaker 2: is based on anecdotal and vague information. And soon therapists
Speaker 2: some with doctorates and la times is clear to state
Speaker 2: most only had master's degrees, which is hard. I respect
Speaker 2: a master's degree, but like you know, I went to
Speaker 2: a therapist who wasn't a real one.
Speaker 4: She helped me, but whatever.
Speaker 2: So some of these people just had master's degrees and
Speaker 2: they all head to Evergreen.
Speaker 4: For this training.
Speaker 2: By nineteen eighty seven, though, this reactive attachment disorder was
Speaker 2: recognized by the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. So
Speaker 2: I was born in nineteen eighty seven if you care.
Speaker 2: So Connall Walkins is a well known expert on attachment
Speaker 2: disorders and is very controversial. Also, even the well known
Speaker 2: she is not licensed or credited in Colorado wherever Green is,
Speaker 2: yet people view her as the godmother of attachment therapy.
Speaker 2: So if she's the godmother of something without any license,
Speaker 2: then your thing is not real.
Speaker 4: Sorry.
Speaker 2: Julie Ponder is another person involved in this crime, and
Speaker 2: she was a California licensed marriage and family therapist with
Speaker 2: two master's degrees, but no credentials in Colorado. And this
Speaker 2: also Colorado allows you to practice about credentials and a
Speaker 2: lot of people do it because I guess with liability
Speaker 2: and stuff, if you're not accredited, then you have less
Speaker 2: doctor responsibility or.
Speaker 4: Something shady like that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then Brittaalin since Saint Clair, she was
Speaker 2: the office manager at the time. Jack Dudley McDaniel was
Speaker 2: Brita's fiance and he was being paid as an intern.
Speaker 2: And then there were two assistants in the room, so
Speaker 2: it was Britta, Jack the mom, Julie Ponder, and Connell Watkins.
Speaker 4: They were all there for Candace's murder.
Speaker 2: Now this what she cast other issues before Canvas in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight. Klein and Watkins and another therapist to
Speaker 2: a treatment on an eleven year old boy from Florida,
Speaker 2: and days later he ran away reported that he had
Speaker 2: been abused, and then the sheriff's deputies seized the files
Speaker 2: the videotape and the tape began to circulate and this
Speaker 2: ended in a complaint against Klein, which led Kleine having
Speaker 2: to agree to no longer participate in rage reduction therapy
Speaker 2: and he moved to Northern Idaho and remains there as
Speaker 2: an advocate but not a practitioner.
Speaker 4: Or he's dead. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't look into him, honestly, but he disappeared
Speaker 2: into Idaho dead or alive?
Speaker 4: Who cares so anyways, but don't.
Speaker 2: But Watkins did not stop after this case, and the
Speaker 2: integrity of the therapy did get her. Other people didn't
Speaker 2: agree and wanted to chill out on this aggressive nature
Speaker 2: of therapy, but Watkins was like, fuck no, I love
Speaker 2: this and opened her own clinic in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 2: So January twenty two thousand, new Maker signs a contract
Speaker 2: with Watkins and associates for a two week intensive therapy
Speaker 2: program that costs seven thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: The mom signs the contract for Kandass to do for
Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars.
Speaker 6: Gosh.
Speaker 2: So she showed up there on April tenth for a
Speaker 2: two week intensive therapy program, and then April nineteenth is
Speaker 2: when a frantic call was made to nine one one.
Speaker 2: When the authorities arrived, they found Candace lying face up
Speaker 2: on the floor and new Maker was performing CPR. Larry
Speaker 2: Frey was the paramedic and said to the La Times
Speaker 2: that he knelt to examine the girl and she was blue,
Speaker 2: cool to the touch, without a pulse or breath. Her
Speaker 2: pupils were fixed and dilated, and her eyes were full
Speaker 2: of red spots.
Speaker 1: So she must have been dead for a while. So
Speaker 1: was like, was the CPR just like performative? That's so creepy.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: They called nine one like a half hour after they
Speaker 2: realized what was happening. The corner ruled Candace died of exphyxiation.
Speaker 2: So this girl straight up died begging for her life
Speaker 2: while wrapped in a flannel sheet during a rebirthing therapy session.
Speaker 2: The defense tried to argue other factors might have caused
Speaker 2: her death, like medications or an undetected heart condition. Go
Speaker 2: fuck yourself. There was a videotape. There was a seventy
Speaker 2: minute session as evidence, a fucking videotape of it, and
Speaker 2: it was the prosecutor's centerpiece for their case. And you
Speaker 2: could hear on the tape this girl is pleading for
Speaker 2: her life and saying she could not breathe. Candace is leading,
Speaker 2: I'm going to die. One of the therapists has heard responding,
Speaker 2: scream for your life, and one therapist said she must
Speaker 2: die to be reborn. Candace is heard responding, you mean
Speaker 2: like you want me to die for real, and ponder goes,
Speaker 2: uh huh good. And that's according to the New York Times.
Speaker 2: And Candace more than ten times on this tape said
Speaker 2: that she was dying. Seven times is heard saying she
Speaker 2: was vomiting. The adults just kept putting pressure on this child.
Speaker 2: The four adults together weighed six hundred and seventy three
Speaker 2: pounds and Candace weighs seventy pounds.
Speaker 4: So what the fuck?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is so horrific.
Speaker 4: It's awful.
Speaker 2: And at forty minutes, new maker asked, baby, do you
Speaker 2: want to be born? And then, according to the LA Times,
Speaker 2: Candace's final word was a faint no.
Speaker 4: And this ponder.
Speaker 2: Bitch is heard saying quitter, quitter, quitter, quit, quit, quit quit,
Speaker 2: She's a quitter. Oh my god, And that's the New
Speaker 2: York Times. And this is all just because this adoptive
Speaker 2: mother wanted attention from this child who was clearly traumatized,
Speaker 2: like a neglected child didn't give an adoptive mother the
Speaker 2: love that she wanted, and like, what the fuck? Okay,
Speaker 2: So Watkins to investigators, said they didn't take the girls,
Speaker 2: please seriously. Jack McDaniel said that they thought Candace was
Speaker 2: trying to manipulate the situation a ten year old, so
Speaker 2: they fucking tortured her and they didn't unwrap her for
Speaker 2: another thirty minutes. And then finally the adoptive mother, who
Speaker 2: was a nurse practitioner at Duke University Hospital. So this
Speaker 2: person is also in the medical profession, like, how are
Speaker 2: you allowing this to happen? It makes no fucking sense.
Speaker 2: So she screamed, oh no, oh god, she's dead. Look
Speaker 2: at her canvas, Candace, And this is in the Times,
Speaker 2: the New York Times. And she was not dead, but
Speaker 2: she was unconscious without a pulse and then died the
Speaker 2: next day. And then Watkins had the fucking like balls
Speaker 2: to afterwards be like, we don't know why this happened.
Speaker 2: We could never have caused this little girl's death. And
Speaker 2: it's like, but we have the tape. This is the
Speaker 2: Remonta singer of this case. April two thousand and one,
Speaker 2: the two therapists were convicted of reckless child abuse. After
Speaker 2: the jury deliberated for about five hours. When the verdict
Speaker 2: was read, Julie Ponder stared straight ahead, closed her eyes
Speaker 2: and fought tears. Connall Watkins showed little emotion, like this
Speaker 2: is a psychopath. This is like a cult leader, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like, yeah, I feel we talk
Speaker 2: about cults a lot. It's usually men and they're just
Speaker 2: like trying to fuck you know, the youth, and like
Speaker 2: do weird things. And I think this is a jonestown,
Speaker 2: Like this is a cult person killer, you know. Watkins
Speaker 2: was also convicted of unlawfully practicing psychotherapy, criminal impersonation, and
Speaker 2: obtaining a signature by deception. The grandmother of the child
Speaker 2: cried and hug those around her after the verdict was read,
Speaker 2: and this happened in the Jefferson County District Court. They
Speaker 2: were each sentenced to sixteen years in prison in June
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, so they could have received the max,
Speaker 2: which would have been forty eight years, but the judge,
Speaker 2: some lady named Jane Tidball of the same Jefferson County district,
Speaker 2: gave the minimum because, quote, they didn't intend to harm
Speaker 2: the girl. What like, even if I don't plan on
Speaker 2: hurting someone, if they plead for forty minutes to please
Speaker 2: stop and they were screaming and vomiting, your intent is
Speaker 2: to her. The quote in the New York Times from
Speaker 2: the judge is the crime itself was horrifying. However, there
Speaker 2: was no evidence of the trial that the defendant wanted
Speaker 2: to harm Kansas. I don't get that. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I disagree. I think they should still be in prison.
Speaker 2: So British Saint Clair and this Jack McDaniel, the assistant therapist,
Speaker 2: people whatever there, they were given ten years probation and
Speaker 2: one thousand hours of community service.
Speaker 4: I think they should have gone to jail.
Speaker 2: The mom who was there for the therapy, she was
Speaker 2: tried on charges of criminally negligent child abuse resulting in
Speaker 2: death initially, but then was given immunity to testify in
Speaker 2: the case against the therapist, but then also In another report,
Speaker 2: it said in October two thousand and one, she did
Speaker 2: agree to plead guilty to child abuse in exchange for
Speaker 2: no jail time and promised that her conviction will be
Speaker 2: expunged if she commits no crimes in the next four years.
Speaker 2: So I'm not really sure if everything was dropped or
Speaker 2: she did have to plead guilty and not catch it. Like,
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure those conflicting reports in the sources. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it seems like it's hard to understand. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't believe in this, but it's like in theory,
Speaker 2: this devoted like carrying, educated woman, just like a nurse
Speaker 2: at Duke University Hospital decided to entrust her daughter to
Speaker 2: four strangers in some remote house in Colorado.
Speaker 4: I don't get it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like stand there and watch as unlicensed alternative
Speaker 2: weirdos do this to a ten year old. Following the trial,
Speaker 2: Governor Bill Owen signed a law outlining rebirthing therapy in Colorado,
Speaker 2: and it's called Candace's Law.
Speaker 1: I think you just see a lot of crazy stuff
Speaker 1: like this when people feel desperate, like and that's when
Speaker 1: the grift comes in. That's when a lot of grifters
Speaker 1: find the most desperate people and are like, trust me
Speaker 1: with this therapy, seven thousand dollars will fix your little
Speaker 1: baby up. You know, Like, unfortunately, I think this mom
Speaker 1: felt I also think she acted very selfishly, but I
Speaker 1: think that she probably felt like, you know, wasn't really
Speaker 1: caring about accreditation and was like, this is my last
Speaker 1: resort or something, and it's so fucking sad. That's such
Speaker 1: a horrible story. But what's the next one. I bet
Speaker 1: it's really upbeat.
Speaker 2: This is the case of Michael and Cheryl Gravel.
Speaker 4: I think it's probably Gravel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we're gonna call him Gravel. They're fucking dirt.
Speaker 2: This is a notorious story. It became known as the
Speaker 2: Caged Kids, according to NPR, So we got to trust them. Wakeman, Ohio,
Speaker 2: is a town of one thousand people about fifty miles
Speaker 2: west of Cleveland.
Speaker 1: They even do like a little nod to this because
Speaker 1: they say Eden's from Ohio and Rosemary.
Speaker 2: Kneel Bear so time of the crime two thousand and five. Okay,
Speaker 2: so this couple, they moved to this place in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety two and immediately started adopting children after their kids
Speaker 2: grew up. When a story is this salacious. There's all
Speaker 2: these articles saying the same thing, and like, you know,
Speaker 2: a friend passed in December and immediately there were all
Speaker 2: these news stories and none of the stuff was real,
Speaker 2: like yeah, not on of it, but there was just
Speaker 2: mistakes made and like people took information without verifying it.
Speaker 2: And so now when like cases like this happened and
Speaker 2: those initial stories, it's kind of like, how do we
Speaker 2: even trust the news?
Speaker 1: It's crazy because they have the ability to go back
Speaker 1: and change them. Like in newspaper days and magazine only days,
Speaker 1: you couldn't change the story once it was out in print.
Speaker 1: You can easily go onto a website and change a
Speaker 1: fuck up now, and I think a lot of.
Speaker 4: People just don't and that shit just lives on the
Speaker 4: internet forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it got wild because here it says like, oh,
Speaker 2: the older kids left, like some of the older their
Speaker 2: bio kids were there, like there's just different things. And
Speaker 2: then it would say eleven total and then it was
Speaker 2: no eleven adopted and it was like, what the fuck
Speaker 2: is going on here?
Speaker 5: You now?
Speaker 2: But you know, I did the best, but so yeah,
Speaker 2: they were like empty nesters, I guess, and decided to
Speaker 2: adopt a bunch of kids. So that was like in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two. The time of like the rest and
Speaker 2: all this coming to light and the crimes was two
Speaker 2: thousand and five. So yeah, basically, they adopted a bunch
Speaker 2: of kids and kept them in cages. Two bio kids
Speaker 2: and then from other marriages. They didn't have kids together,
Speaker 2: so like Brady Bunch style, but you know, twisted. So
Speaker 2: and those kids were living in an abusive environment but
Speaker 2: avoided abuse and neglect that the adopted children did. So
Speaker 2: eleven adopted children ages one to fourteen, and they they
Speaker 2: all had conditions ranging from autism to HIV to fas
Speaker 2: Down syndrome, Pika attachment disorders. So you know, eleven kids
Speaker 2: with special needs. That's for special people. Only special people
Speaker 2: can handle something like that. Michael and Sharon were not
Speaker 2: those people, you know what I mean? Yeah, only the
Speaker 2: New York Post wrote this. This is not written anywhere.
Speaker 2: There's no photos, so I don't know, but it says
Speaker 2: that all the kids were black and yet the parents
Speaker 2: were white. And this might lead to the big part
Speaker 2: where the city did not care sooner. Yeah, and why
Speaker 2: no one checked on these people and why these psychopaths
Speaker 2: were able to adopt eleven fucking kids and not be
Speaker 2: watched over and let kids be in cages for as
Speaker 2: long as they were.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's not.
Speaker 2: Written anywhere else, and it's like, but it's important to
Speaker 2: under I don't know. But it's also the Post. Can
Speaker 2: we even trust the New York Post? But why would
Speaker 2: they lie about the kids race? Yeah, it just adds
Speaker 2: a thing because you'll see, like the neglect that really
Speaker 2: happened with the city and these children, and I just wonder.
Speaker 2: So the kids were sleeping in cages. They were stacked
Speaker 2: on top of each other in a bedroom on the
Speaker 2: second floor of the house.
Speaker 4: Each cage was three.
Speaker 2: And a half feet tall and painted in primary colors,
Speaker 2: so a lot of these kids couldn't even stand in
Speaker 2: these cages. They were rigged with alarms and if they
Speaker 2: were open, and one had a dresser in front of
Speaker 2: it as well. No pillows, no blankets, just thin masks.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. And the cops raided their home September
Speaker 2: two thousand and five after receiving a tip.
Speaker 4: We don't know who the tip is.
Speaker 2: Investigators said the room smelled of urine when they showed
Speaker 2: up with a warrant. Also, two of adoptive kids' names
Speaker 2: were named Sharon and Michael, So they named their adoptive
Speaker 2: children after themselves. That's a red flag. Yeah, they shouldn't
Speaker 2: have been able to adopt another child after that, like
Speaker 2: change their names. Oh my gosh. Yeah, And Sharon and
Speaker 2: Michael were the only two kids that were documented ever
Speaker 2: going to school.
Speaker 4: The rest of them did not.
Speaker 2: Neighbors said the kids looked well fed, there were tons
Speaker 2: of toys, and they were polite and well dressed kids.
Speaker 2: So from the outside, maybe there was like a different facade.
Speaker 2: But also other witnesses at the Gravel's trial testified to
Speaker 2: other abuse like shoving the children's heads into a toilet
Speaker 2: and flushing it, beating them with sticks and boards, and
Speaker 2: hosing them off outside the house in the winter. And
Speaker 2: the biological kids spoke out to the news Harold in
Speaker 2: two thousand and six saying that they were treated like
Speaker 2: borders after the death of their mother. So I guess
Speaker 2: those are like the dad's kids. The mom died and
Speaker 2: then like a Cinderella situation occurred. Also, reports showed that
Speaker 2: Sharon's biological daughter was sexually molested for two years by
Speaker 2: Sharon's previous husband, and then the ex husband was convicted
Speaker 2: and sent to prison, but she allowed him to move
Speaker 2: back with her and her daughter after his release, which
Speaker 2: proves what a dumb bitch she is. And then another
Speaker 2: added layer at all this is in two thousand and one,
Speaker 2: there are court papers where Sharon requested a separation and
Speaker 2: wanted custody of the eight children at the time because
Speaker 2: of her husband's physical mistreatment of the children. So after
Speaker 2: that though, they were able to adopt three more kids.
Speaker 2: What Michael told the rude that he felt he was
Speaker 2: being led by the Lord. Of course, they lost custody
Speaker 2: of the kids after all. This came out in September
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, and then they were convicted December
Speaker 2: two thousand and six. After the arrest, the children were
Speaker 2: put into four separate foster homes. And with these there's
Speaker 2: always an excuse like they took absolutely no accountability.
Speaker 4: Obviously they were just like no, no, no, like.
Speaker 2: But my thing is like, did they actually believe what
Speaker 2: they were saying or they just psycho liars? Either way,
Speaker 2: I don't care. They're evil. They said they had to
Speaker 2: put these kids in enclosed beds for their safety so
Speaker 2: they didn't wander at night. She also said that the
Speaker 2: psychiatrists actually recommended for the kids to sleep in cages. Also, like,
Speaker 2: because of the disorders, traditional methods of behavior control were unsuccessful,
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, again, you don't have to adopt
Speaker 2: eleven kids.
Speaker 4: So December two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: The couple were found guilty of four fellonyccounts of child
Speaker 2: and dangering, two misdemeanor counts of child and dangering, and
Speaker 2: five misdemeanor counts of child abuse. They were acquitted of
Speaker 2: thirteen other charges. The max they were facing, though, is
Speaker 2: one to five years in prison, which is confusing, and
Speaker 2: then the max fine is ten grand for each felony count.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they only got two years, kind of like
Speaker 2: in the episode, so they only got Yeah, they only
Speaker 2: got two years for abusing eleven kids with special needs?
Speaker 2: Again does race play? Like it's hard not to think
Speaker 2: about that element.
Speaker 4: And I wouldn't have.
Speaker 2: Even known it if I didn't, if we didn't have
Speaker 2: kind of a sick fascination with the New York Posts
Speaker 2: because it's not really a respected news source. But now
Speaker 2: I don't respect any news sources. What is shocking but
Speaker 2: not shocking is the judge let them remain free on
Speaker 2: bond during the appeal process because the judge said Ohio
Speaker 2: child abuse laws are not clear on what constitutes abuse.
Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine, the Ohio Supreme Court rejected
Speaker 2: their appeal finally, which said that their search and seizure
Speaker 2: rights were violated and they finally went to jail. They
Speaker 2: also said they couldn't get a fair trial because the
Speaker 2: picture of the cages were sent to the media. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't like the cages. Yeah, Like, no matter where
Speaker 2: they were shown, we wouldn't have been into the cages.
Speaker 1: If you can alarm a cage, why can't you alarm
Speaker 1: a bedroom, Like, why can't you alarma a bedroom? If
Speaker 1: you're worried they're gonna wander, put them in a bedroom
Speaker 1: and make there be some kind of alarm that wakes
Speaker 1: you up if they try to get out at night.
Speaker 1: I mean there's tons of shit people put like little
Speaker 1: whiffle balls over the fucking door handles so kids can't
Speaker 1: get out.
Speaker 4: There's plenty of ways you.
Speaker 1: Can keep your kids from getting out of their bedroom,
Speaker 1: but they involved letting them sleep with a blanket and
Speaker 1: you know, like have a pillow, Yeah, and not be
Speaker 1: in a cage.
Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine, two of the teams sued
Speaker 2: the couple and the caseworkers. That's who I am, That's
Speaker 2: who I wanted to Yeah, that's who arranged the adoptions.
Speaker 2: The suit was also against Hamilton County Department of Job
Speaker 2: and Family Services in Cincinnati. The suit is like they
Speaker 2: were unfit to be parents and should never have gotten
Speaker 2: custody of the children. In twenty ten, two more children
Speaker 2: decided to file a lawsuit against Colin Myers and Fairhaven
Speaker 2: Counseling Ink, which performed an adoptive assessment of the Gravels
Speaker 2: before fully approving them to serve as adoptive parents. The
Speaker 2: couple was released from prison and tooy eleven, both at
Speaker 2: sixty two years of age. She divorced him and changed
Speaker 2: her name to Sharon Curtis Tipperman, and after the release,
Speaker 2: she tried to get guardianship of her sick mother for
Speaker 2: the mom's wealth. Okay, my god, so the lawsuit. In
Speaker 2: twenty ten, the victims reached a one point two million
Speaker 2: dollar settlement with Ohio's a Huron County. Finally, in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 2: eleven of the victims reached a two million dollar settlement
Speaker 2: with Ohio's Start county. In both these settlement cases, the
Speaker 2: attorneys argue the county's authorities failed to adequately investigate you know,
Speaker 2: gravels before placing the children in the home.
Speaker 4: Duh.
Speaker 2: Because of this case, Ohio decided to change up their
Speaker 2: adopted rules and you're not allowed to adopt more than
Speaker 2: five children without a thorough investigation. Sure, Ohio, But why
Speaker 2: wasn't that part of the initial plans.
Speaker 1: But it's also like what does the number have to
Speaker 1: do with it? I mean, like you could be pretty
Speaker 1: you could be keeping four kids in.
Speaker 2: Cages, but that's okay, Like, you know, but I don't
Speaker 2: think you should be able to adopt that many kids.
Speaker 4: But I don't. I know, it's crazy.
Speaker 1: Well because to me then it feels like you are
Speaker 1: doing it for the checks, another kid whatever, throw another
Speaker 1: kid into a bedroom with another kid and like get
Speaker 1: more money. Yeah, like I do think people are then
Speaker 1: doing it for like because it's like a business. Then
Speaker 1: you know, so I see that. But then you know
Speaker 1: Delilah the radio show host, she adopted a ton of kids.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, she's she's like a weirdo Christian lady. Yeah, Delah, Hi, Liz,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you talked about this case today.
Speaker 4: I was so good.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, both of those crimes are horrific. Thank you
Speaker 1: for doing the research. We do have an amazing guest
Speaker 1: today and you guys are gonna love her, So just
Speaker 1: don't go anywhere. Our guests this week you might recognize
Speaker 1: from HBO's The Wire, a little show on that channel,
Speaker 1: or the show Damages, a personal favorite of mine. But
Speaker 1: most likely you know her from appearing in over one
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty episodes of the NBC drama also from
Speaker 1: the Dick Wolf Universe Chicago Med as head charge nurse
Speaker 1: Maggie Lockwood.
Speaker 2: But today you know.
Speaker 1: Her from the episode Cage as Alma Cordoza. Please enjoy
Speaker 1: our chat with the wonderful Marlene Barrett.
Speaker 7: Hello, Hi Marlene, thank you so much for being here. Ooh,
Speaker 7: look at that. You're a first guest with effects. What's happening?
Speaker 6: I think so? I think so, but don't ask me
Speaker 6: how I did it. I don't know how.
Speaker 2: Well, no, because it happened. Uh, Marlene had the thumbs up,
Speaker 2: come up? Remember that happened when we were facetiming. You're like,
Speaker 2: how did that happen? And I said I don't know.
Speaker 2: It just happened with her too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like for corporate meetings where you can like
Speaker 1: raise your hand or something.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm actually figuring out how to do I'm looking at
Speaker 1: how to do it right now. But yeah, yeah, corporate America, Marlene.
Speaker 1: This is huge for us because I feel like we're
Speaker 1: talking to a like Dick Wolf Royalty right now. At
Speaker 1: least as IMDb says, you are the longest running cast
Speaker 1: member on Chicago Med.
Speaker 4: You have the most episodes on Chicago Med.
Speaker 6: Well, actually, correction, there is.
Speaker 5: Doctor Charles and Goodwin who have been there longer than me.
Speaker 1: No, we gotta tell IMDb because they got number baby.
Speaker 5: Because who plays Sharon Goodwin has fourteen years over.
Speaker 6: On Law and Order?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but on Chicago Med, a Pathos even a
Speaker 1: few episodes behind you.
Speaker 2: Like when you look at the Chicago Med, you have
Speaker 2: one sixty seven and she has won sixty six.
Speaker 4: Maybe she took a day off.
Speaker 1: Well, what I love is that you are a person
Speaker 1: that doesn't look at your own IMDb and that's really important.
Speaker 4: Yeh don't.
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't. I don't know why. I just don't.
Speaker 2: Well, not only are you in full SVW Glory and
Speaker 2: so many different shows. We're gonna talk about Cage, but
Speaker 2: we love the episode Night.
Speaker 4: You are so good in it. I can't believe we're
Speaker 4: talking to you.
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, come on, that's such an emotional scene and
Speaker 2: it's stuck with both of us and I can't believe
Speaker 2: it's you.
Speaker 1: We Actually, we haven't covered that episode on the podcast
Speaker 1: because we do it at live shows because it's not
Speaker 1: based on a true crime per se. But it's like
Speaker 1: one of our favorites to do at the live show.
Speaker 1: Nice and it's Yeah. When I was looking at the
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, she's also a knight.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 2: I was shooting that one with Benson Stabler and then
Speaker 2: having to be so emotional, and.
Speaker 5: You know, I'll say that, you know, outside of the
Speaker 5: fact that yes, I'm a Wolf Universe, but I think
Speaker 5: I became a Wolf Universe junkie when I worked with them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because one, you know, sex crime is stuff like that.
Speaker 5: I feel like I carried guns behind my back all
Speaker 5: the time and I'm.
Speaker 6: Like, I wish she would, you know, That's how I feel.
Speaker 4: But when I was.
Speaker 5: Shooting with them, Marishka created an atmosphere that made me go,
Speaker 5: when I grow up, I want to be like her. Wow,
Speaker 5: because I remember being so nervous because I'm like, I'm
Speaker 5: such a fan and I got on the show and
Speaker 5: I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, but then you're like,
Speaker 5: oh man, the craft, I have to focus, I have
Speaker 5: to get there.
Speaker 6: But I was so excited that it took a lot
Speaker 6: and she did this thing. She had the entire atmosphere just.
Speaker 5: Nobody, just chill out, quiet, and right away it just
Speaker 5: sunk in goof Yeah, you know, I really believe that
Speaker 5: when you're around her, she pulls out of you. This
Speaker 5: film performance, it was just so safe because I you know,
Speaker 5: when you do these shows, when they portray like these
Speaker 5: truly gruesome crimes that could happen to women, They're like,
Speaker 5: I want to do justice to the women that I've
Speaker 5: gone through crazy stuff like that.
Speaker 6: So, I mean, I loved it and I became.
Speaker 5: Addicted to the Wolf universe because of it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: You know they yell cut, You're like, yeah, the action,
Speaker 5: You're like, oh, you know.
Speaker 2: So after that, though, did you have to keep auditioning
Speaker 2: or did they just keep calling you or a mix
Speaker 2: of both.
Speaker 6: It depends, you know, I auditioned.
Speaker 5: I did the Law and Order Wolf universe that way,
Speaker 5: but I also did Conviction with them, yeah, which is
Speaker 5: another show that they had. On that show, I had
Speaker 5: a great time too, but I didn't audition for that.
Speaker 5: And I also did Try by Jury, which was a
Speaker 5: Law and Order that only had a one season run,
Speaker 5: and I remember on that one we did a true
Speaker 5: crime too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was bb Newarth was leading exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And Clark the British actor who did Cabaret with
Speaker 5: her back in the day, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, huge
Speaker 5: actor who's also been in John Wick, the first John
Speaker 5: Wick I believe, no, the second one.
Speaker 6: I think it's the first one.
Speaker 4: I haven't seen that yet. I gotta see it.
Speaker 6: You should see it.
Speaker 5: You should see it because Clark is in John Wick
Speaker 5: and John Wick. He gets killed by you know, the
Speaker 5: actress with the black hair that comes in and john
Speaker 5: Wick catches her because she comes into john Wick's room
Speaker 5: and tries to kill John Wick. And John Wick is like,
Speaker 5: no way, sexy lady, you're not getting me.
Speaker 6: Remember that one.
Speaker 2: Wait, you're a big fan. You love movies and TV.
Speaker 2: Obviously I'm a junkie. Yeah, I'm a junkie.
Speaker 6: Yeah too, like not a little bit.
Speaker 4: What are your comfort shows?
Speaker 5: Comfort shows like just play the background while I'm cooking?
Speaker 6: Yeah, old school on in Order, the first generation?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Sam Waterston.
Speaker 5: Yes, first generation. Even before Sam Waterston. The other guy
Speaker 5: I don't even know, Jesse Martin and I did an
Speaker 5: episode with him, and I remember I had to cry
Speaker 5: in for that guy. I remember going, I'm not gonna
Speaker 5: cry because you're too sexy for me to cry. I'm
Speaker 5: from and I was single at the time, and I
Speaker 5: was like, should I get a deep how deep should
Speaker 5: I go? Nothing happens, so move along whatever.
Speaker 1: But so Lawn and Order Original was your first like
Speaker 1: foray into the that was like your first role on
Speaker 1: Dick Wolf stuff, right, I think according to this, like
Speaker 1: around five or something, right.
Speaker 6: First role, Yes, straight out of school.
Speaker 5: But more importantly, my parents learn how to speak English
Speaker 5: with some deep wolf stuff like he'll street blues.
Speaker 4: Oh wow.
Speaker 5: My parents are immigrant from Haiti and he'll street blues
Speaker 5: like my dad's trying to shape his mouth, like trying
Speaker 5: to say the things like they are so you can
Speaker 5: sound American.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I was born in the former Soviet Union and I
Speaker 2: learned the English watching Baywatch.
Speaker 4: That was like.
Speaker 6: Who else?
Speaker 4: Who else we teach you because you grew up in Chicago.
Speaker 2: But then you've got a little bit of a valley girl.
Speaker 6: That's hilarious.
Speaker 4: Yeah, something I have accents.
Speaker 2: So are you in Chicago and you're filming obviously because
Speaker 2: I'm for stokey.
Speaker 6: Oh you are nice.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I really loved Chicago.
Speaker 2: We had Stephen Weber on our podcast and we did
Speaker 2: fall in love with him, one of your cast Smkes Weber.
Speaker 6: I was shooting with him yesterday.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we became smitten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell him, we say, hi, we love him.
Speaker 6: Mister sexy, isn't he Yeah?
Speaker 5: He is.
Speaker 4: He really got us.
Speaker 1: We invited him to come see our live show in Chicago,
Speaker 1: but he had an early call time, so you know
Speaker 1: he puts the work first.
Speaker 6: Stephen Webbers just love that man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's the best.
Speaker 6: He's off his rocker.
Speaker 5: Well, let me just say this, you talk about knowledge,
Speaker 5: Stephen Weber will give you a list of movies that
Speaker 5: you need to watch.
Speaker 6: And he starts in nineteen forty five, Steve, Stephen, do
Speaker 6: they even have like these movies on dvd? I don't
Speaker 6: even have a DVD player anymore? Like, where am I
Speaker 6: going to find these things.
Speaker 2: Kara's husband is like that, that's her husband. He watches
Speaker 2: like horror movies. We still have a DVD player. He's
Speaker 2: into old, old stuff. It's like a weird men thing.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm sure there's women out there who love old stuff,
Speaker 1: but I haven't met that many of them.
Speaker 5: I just got a list, so I just want you
Speaker 5: to get to know about that.
Speaker 1: That's interesting that you mentioned that your parents are immigrants
Speaker 1: from Haiti, because I went on your Instagram and I
Speaker 1: saw you giving an interview in full French, and I
Speaker 1: was like, where is she from?
Speaker 2: Like it's just like fully fluent at French.
Speaker 1: But what's what's weird is that one of the little
Speaker 1: boys from cage is from Haiti as well, and it's
Speaker 1: and like one of the detectives is speaking French to him.
Speaker 4: You know that?
Speaker 2: Do I remember that?
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you worked with the two
Speaker 1: little kids, like Elle Fanning and the little boy.
Speaker 5: It's a little bit with Elle, yeah, and then I
Speaker 5: worked with Wonder Woman's mama.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Annie Nielsen, Annie Nielsen, that's her. So she
Speaker 1: speaks French to the little boy and he freaks out
Speaker 1: and he stabs Stabler with a pen in the chest
Speaker 1: and she's telling him in French, calm down, Calm down, man.
Speaker 4: I don't remember that. Yeah, he stabs stablir.
Speaker 5: Miss.
Speaker 1: It's an opportunity for you to have like some you know,
Speaker 1: speak some French with this little kid.
Speaker 4: It would have been great.
Speaker 5: We talked about this, you know, not long ago when
Speaker 5: I saw Dick said, Marlet you speak French.
Speaker 6: Why don't we ever put any French in your stuff?
Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, we already established her as a
Speaker 5: Chicagoan that comes from down south.
Speaker 6: We can't go there, Dick, it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Suddenly she had a semester abroad in Paris and she
Speaker 1: speaks French's.
Speaker 6: Back with a gar song and I'm like, no, Dick,
Speaker 6: it doesn't work.
Speaker 4: It doesn't work.
Speaker 5: We did do something though, where we put it in
Speaker 5: last season when I came back and I had a
Speaker 5: date with my husband and I went on vacation and
Speaker 5: came back with French accent or French something for two minutes.
Speaker 5: But that was about it. But I didn't work with
Speaker 5: that boy, but I worked with Elle. And first of all,
Speaker 5: let me just say that it was clear where she
Speaker 5: was going, Wow, Yeah, moneyball, moneyball all day long.
Speaker 7: Wow.
Speaker 5: And I first want to say that work ethic was clear,
Speaker 5: So you knew that this little girl was so focused
Speaker 5: that if she maintained it and did get caught up
Speaker 5: in nonsense, she was gonna go far.
Speaker 6: And as we can tell, she has maintained it.
Speaker 5: And she had this thing. I remember she had this.
Speaker 5: We had this conversation together and she was there with
Speaker 5: Grandma and Grandma.
Speaker 6: Had an accent.
Speaker 5: She was like that and she was beautiful. So she
Speaker 5: came in and she was like, well, my sister has.
Speaker 6: A phone, and I don't have a phone yet, but.
Speaker 5: My sister has a phone, and when I grow up,
Speaker 5: I'm going to have a phone too.
Speaker 6: That's what she said to me.
Speaker 5: And I was like, she's talking about Dakota, Like, yeah,
Speaker 5: you're just allowed to have a phone.
Speaker 6: If I was a man on fire, I would ask
Speaker 6: for a phone after.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, give me my phone.
Speaker 6: And I'm sitting there going incredible.
Speaker 5: And she was so humble, she was so family orientated,
Speaker 5: and she played.
Speaker 6: A psycle path and that thing.
Speaker 5: Mean, while they're like Alma Coldoza is like crazy and
Speaker 5: I'm like I'm crazy.
Speaker 2: How about children up the corner over here. Yes, she was,
Speaker 2: Allan said, because she you know, burned the thing and
Speaker 2: she was just screaming I want to die and kicking
Speaker 2: and Connie Nielsen I was like, wow, it's how did
Speaker 2: that not affect her?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Ah, she was. They would y'all cut and that girl
Speaker 6: was just out wow action.
Speaker 5: It was like you focus, you know, because when you
Speaker 5: I think when you perform as an actor, your ability
Speaker 5: to focus and to concentrate, but at the same time
Speaker 5: just stay connected with how many people are out there
Speaker 5: just working.
Speaker 6: With you to capture what you're shooting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's like this duality of your dancing with
Speaker 5: the camera, but at the same time you're so focused
Speaker 5: that it's like this wave that's unspoken that you have
Speaker 5: to dance with the camera and you She was young
Speaker 5: and she had.
Speaker 2: It, yes, young eight when she made that episode.
Speaker 1: She was eight, so young, but I guess she'd probably
Speaker 1: been watching her sister do it for a while, so
Speaker 1: in terms of like, you know, the focus, she was
Speaker 1: probably like, Okay, I just like, you know, I.
Speaker 2: Love that al Fanning was in sv Ann Abigail Bresla,
Speaker 2: and that makes me happy.
Speaker 4: Crazy all these young these young prodigies.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because in.
Speaker 1: The in your first episode when you did Night, you
Speaker 1: had a lot of like Stabler and Benson FaceTime, right
Speaker 1: because they come to your apartment. But like in this one,
Speaker 1: you're more munch in Finn because I Stabler's in this episode.
Speaker 1: But Marishka, I think is on maternity leave, so you
Speaker 1: didn't work with her in this one, I don't think right,
Speaker 1: So how was it, Like, how was the interrogation with
Speaker 1: those two? Did you get any ice cold facts from
Speaker 1: Iced Tea?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 4: What how did that go?
Speaker 6: I'm a crazy Iced Tea fan New Jack City.
Speaker 4: I mean us too, man so.
Speaker 5: Mounch Man, I remember off camera Iced Tea was just amazing.
Speaker 6: A media's wife, Coco got.
Speaker 5: A chance to hang out. He's just so inviting as
Speaker 5: a person. Maybe at this atmosphere, very relaxed. And then
Speaker 5: Monch himself, we kept on talking about wine. That's what
Speaker 5: we talked about. We talked about you know, great wine,
Speaker 5: and I was just starting in the wine world, and
Speaker 5: I don't think I went very far with that. I
Speaker 5: just like, I just like good wine, but who cares
Speaker 5: where it's made? I'm like, yeah, you know, so it
Speaker 5: was a great atmosphere hostage, so that by the time
Speaker 5: you went and shot with these guys, as intense as
Speaker 5: they came towards you, you felt like you were being
Speaker 5: scolded by your big brothers.
Speaker 6: Why did you do that?
Speaker 5: You didn't feel the intimidation of what necessarily the.
Speaker 6: Character was going through. You felt more about the storyline.
Speaker 5: So again there's something about it's a reason.
Speaker 6: Why that shows lasted so long.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the show last so long because I think when
Speaker 5: they come in, they embrace you into this family structure
Speaker 5: that is really effortless for them. Yeah, and I think
Speaker 5: that has to do with the strong leadership of Marishka.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you were inspired and it kind of
Speaker 2: got you into the dick Wolf universe, and you're talking
Speaker 2: about it again. So now that you are the number
Speaker 2: one of like your own dick Wolf set, as that
Speaker 2: like influence your behavior on set or like how things
Speaker 2: run at Chicago.
Speaker 5: Mad Absolutely, absolutely, I want to say that there's a standard.
Speaker 5: There's a standard because people work very hard to put
Speaker 5: these shows up.
Speaker 6: You know, there's a.
Speaker 5: Lot of people that were very hard to put these
Speaker 5: shows up backstage, all the way at the production in office.
Speaker 5: When you think about our bosses, at the same time,
Speaker 5: and then by the time you get there and it's
Speaker 5: time to shoot, there's this sense of the first year
Speaker 5: you're like, I hope the show is good, so we
Speaker 5: have a show right then you get picked up and
Speaker 5: then you're at a place where.
Speaker 6: Wait a second, how did we get a hit? Sho
Speaker 6: so and then you graduate and you're like, yo, man,
Speaker 6: if this.
Speaker 5: Goes through, maybe you know I could back card myself.
Speaker 5: You don't think house, no, that's the way too big.
Speaker 5: You're just like a car that you don't have a
Speaker 5: note on. And then you're watching people who are doing
Speaker 5: the same thing as you, like local people who are
Speaker 5: building a life too, So then you become a family
Speaker 5: structure with them, and you kind of this responsibility that
Speaker 5: you want to help people build a life too. You know,
Speaker 5: you're watching people who are starting in the street, at
Speaker 5: cameraman grips, in all these different industries and we're all
Speaker 5: doing all this work together to build a life, and
Speaker 5: it's like this miracle operation that you happen to be
Speaker 5: a successful show in the country slash in the world
Speaker 5: right now, you know. So yeah, it becomes this standard
Speaker 5: of I want to make it fun, I.
Speaker 6: Want to make it. These are long hours.
Speaker 5: So I do think that when people come and they
Speaker 5: come and do these guest stars, I want to treat
Speaker 5: them like the way that I was treated when Mariska
Speaker 5: greeted me. I want them to feel safe. I want
Speaker 5: them to be able to do their best performance that
Speaker 5: they can put that on their reel and go after
Speaker 5: other gigs, yeah, you know, and get jobs. So I
Speaker 5: think that's really cool. But fun fact is that in
Speaker 5: twenty twenty two, when I got diagnosed with uterine cancer,
Speaker 5: I understand, don't go weird on me.
Speaker 6: Let's just who needs a uterus? Right?
Speaker 5: Just oh my god, Okay, sorry. When I got diagnosed, man,
Speaker 5: that was a tough time because I was about to
Speaker 5: fly in to start my season eight, and you know,
Speaker 5: had they not treated me right, I never would have
Speaker 5: gone to one sixty one.
Speaker 6: But anyways, that's all what I And then when I
Speaker 6: got there and.
Speaker 5: Everybody found out what I was going through, I had
Speaker 5: been cleared that I could work and everybody, you know,
Speaker 5: they checked me out and you know, I needed.
Speaker 6: To start chemo.
Speaker 5: Let me tell you, I was on the show when
Speaker 5: hair started going down, and you know, you're skinning is
Speaker 5: starting to change. You're coming back from chemo and you're
Speaker 5: like that show which is my home right now. Scrapped
Speaker 5: me around in security, just surrounded me. And that was
Speaker 5: from top down, Dick, Peter, those are the bosses, you know,
Speaker 5: so who run the Wolf universe. People want to know
Speaker 5: why that this universe is so powerful they wrapped me
Speaker 5: in such security. Yeah, I missed out of these twenty
Speaker 5: two episodes, I think.
Speaker 6: I missed one.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 5: One.
Speaker 6: This is with twelve chemo treatments, eight hour surgery.
Speaker 5: I missed one because I said, yo, guys, I just
Speaker 5: need one episode off. I just feel like I'm a
Speaker 5: little depleted. And you know, I was down to like
Speaker 5: a size zero. I was going towards the minus. Uh.
Speaker 5: They did things like I would take my little scooter
Speaker 5: to set because I couldn't walk as much as I
Speaker 5: wanted to. I was out of breath post treatment. And
Speaker 5: that's just a testament to this world, really a testament.
Speaker 6: And let me just say I know.
Speaker 5: There was many a times because I'm a praying fool,
Speaker 5: people say like, why do you pray?
Speaker 6: Because I don't want to die. It couldn't happen at
Speaker 6: a better place. Yeah, for my life to be saved like, oh, was.
Speaker 4: It strange going to a set that was a hospital.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, because my character in the med show had gotten
Speaker 5: cancer three seasons prior.
Speaker 6: Wow, so you have to know that. Let me show
Speaker 6: your picture. So this is how I look.
Speaker 4: You have a great shaped pad though. Thank god, I'll
Speaker 4: tell you something.
Speaker 6: Let me just tell you something.
Speaker 5: When that hair fell and I saw the shape of
Speaker 5: my head, I said, there's a God in heaven.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it could have gone wrong quick. It could have
Speaker 6: gone wrong quick.
Speaker 5: But there's a famous episode that was that TV Guide
Speaker 5: magazine quoted as one of the best episodes we had
Speaker 5: in season five, I think, And it's the episode where
Speaker 5: my character loses all her hair and she's in front
Speaker 5: of the mirror and she has a couple of strings
Speaker 5: and the air left, and I remember pulling on that
Speaker 5: memory to believe that, I mean, surely my character made
Speaker 5: it through.
Speaker 8: There's a God in heaven that knew I was going
Speaker 8: to go through this, and I should believe that I'm
Speaker 8: going to make it through, because you know, a couple
Speaker 8: of times they come back and they do these tests
Speaker 8: and they have these words that are coming out of
Speaker 8: their mouths that you're like, yeah, I remember when I
Speaker 8: asked the question, by the way, doc, am I gotta live?
Speaker 5: You know, It's the craziest question to ask a doctor.
Speaker 5: And I remember saying, Doc, don't answer that. Don't answer that,
Speaker 5: like you're not God. Let me just move on with this.
Speaker 5: Let's just do the chemo treatment. Yeah, I'm doing great now,
Speaker 5: by the way, I'm in I'm doing fantastic great.
Speaker 6: And now I'm on.
Speaker 5: Set and people are like, oh man, she talks a lot.
Speaker 5: Now she must be you, you know. So that's the
Speaker 5: atmosphere that's really.
Speaker 1: Cool, because I mean there's like there's books and TV
Speaker 1: series and articles written constantly about like toxic sets and
Speaker 1: like horrible experiences people have in Hollywood. And then everybody
Speaker 1: that we kind of talked to from the deck Wolf
Speaker 1: universe is like, it's a family.
Speaker 4: It's so great.
Speaker 1: And even what I mean, we've talked to people that
Speaker 1: have been you know, let go from the shows, and
Speaker 1: they're still like they still talk about it like it
Speaker 1: was a great family.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 1: So that's really wonderful that it was so such a
Speaker 1: supportive environment when you were going through that.
Speaker 6: And Stephen Wember, yeah.
Speaker 5: Crier when he found out about my illness.
Speaker 6: I was like sexy man's crying.
Speaker 4: He's in touch.
Speaker 1: He's in touch with his sensitive, with his sense of
Speaker 1: his emotions.
Speaker 6: You I knew.
Speaker 2: Do doctors recognize you when you have any sort of
Speaker 2: appointments or and then do you sometimes like feel like
Speaker 2: you know what's going on?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 2: They always say, because I'm a Drag Race fan, tricks
Speaker 2: and Koways go, you don't understand Drag, You're just a
Speaker 2: fan of a show. And that's how I kind of
Speaker 2: feel with SVU sometimes too, Like I'll get really into
Speaker 2: certain crime like and it's like no, no, no, I love
Speaker 2: a show. I might, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: We didn't actually go to the police academy or any
Speaker 1: study anything.
Speaker 6: You have the right to remain silent, don't you ever.
Speaker 4: Like kind of try to flex the knowledge you learned? Then? Also,
Speaker 4: did any doctors recognize you?
Speaker 6: And stuff?
Speaker 7: Well?
Speaker 5: Fun fact, my doctor is a huge fan came up
Speaker 5: to me and asked me, hey, Marlene, you're just one
Speaker 5: of my biggest miracle cases because of what they saw
Speaker 5: and then it just disappeared and move on. He like
Speaker 5: said to me, I need you to come and talk
Speaker 5: certain places so I can raise money to beat this
Speaker 5: cancer thing. Wow, because he's a huge research guy.
Speaker 6: That is incredible. My chemo doctor specifically, I think that
Speaker 6: would be a fun thing. Man. I just thought about this.
Speaker 5: My two doctors, doctor Stephen, LeAnn, doctor Wang, just amazing men.
Speaker 6: That yeah, they did. It was just one of those
Speaker 6: weird things.
Speaker 5: You know, they recognize you and they're like, what are
Speaker 5: you doing here? And you start telling them your story
Speaker 5: about you know, what you saw, you know how you've
Speaker 5: been feeling. And then they're like, Okay, we're gonna we're
Speaker 5: gonna try and calm you down.
Speaker 6: Here because you know too much. You know too much
Speaker 6: and you can be your worst enemy.
Speaker 5: So fun fact is, before I started as Maggie Lockwood
Speaker 5: the charge Ours, my parents weren't going to let me
Speaker 5: go into acting.
Speaker 6: So I do have a nursing degree.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 6: Wow yeah yeah, never practice.
Speaker 4: That's incredible.
Speaker 1: I mean you must know a lot of like the
Speaker 1: terminology in your lines and stuff.
Speaker 4: That's crazy. That's a gift. That's a gift.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And I know I did my nursing in French. That's
Speaker 5: the interesting part.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 5: So I know too much, So I have to calm
Speaker 5: down and just when I ask my questions. They really
Speaker 5: have to be specific because it can send me down
Speaker 5: the rabbit.
Speaker 6: Hole of research where you're.
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, and I gotta I can't be that person.
Speaker 6: I'm my worst. I can talk, I can talk. I
Speaker 6: do all my work.
Speaker 5: At home because I love being on set so much.
Speaker 5: There's this running gag that by nine am, Marlene has
Speaker 5: used at least two hundred and fifty thousand works.
Speaker 2: Well, we're real chatty Kathy's chat.
Speaker 4: But that's actually cool.
Speaker 2: I heard other I forgot who we talked to where
Speaker 2: they were complimenting someone where it's like when you do
Speaker 2: all your work at home and then you get to
Speaker 2: just be there and be prepared.
Speaker 4: That's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I like the chat too, But also I
Speaker 1: love that your parents got like kind of the best
Speaker 1: of both worlds. They got a nurse, but then they
Speaker 1: also got a doctor on TV.
Speaker 4: Like, you know, you're like no careers. Oh, you're a nurse.
Speaker 5: I'm a nurse. I'm the only nurse, but I'm also
Speaker 5: a midwife. You have doctor energy, you have doctor.
Speaker 2: Energy, doctor authority authority, yes.
Speaker 1: But whatever, you're a nurse in real life and you're
Speaker 1: a very successful actor. You're like you are accomplished in
Speaker 1: multiple fields. That's like that's the dream.
Speaker 6: Right absolutely. I think that had I not been.
Speaker 5: A successful actor, I would have gone back to at
Speaker 5: least go to law school or do something like that.
Speaker 1: Ah wow, Yeah, nursing is a hard job.
Speaker 5: Unless I would have been a doctor in nursing, you
Speaker 5: know the nurses that can be a physician's assistant, and right, yes, that.
Speaker 6: I would have done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I think that being a nurse is it's
Speaker 5: tough because you want to smack these young doctors across
Speaker 5: their heads at times because you've worked with the mature
Speaker 5: doctors that have taught you so much. Then these young
Speaker 5: kids show up on the first June or whenever the
Speaker 5: new residence starts.
Speaker 6: And you're like, oh lord, you throorty. That's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. My mother in law's a nurse.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of nurses in my family, and
Speaker 1: they're always like there's always like just mostly male doctors
Speaker 1: that are like that, like don't treat the nurses with
Speaker 1: the respect that they have the so much knowledge, and
Speaker 1: then they catch their mistakes.
Speaker 4: The nurses catch the doctor. There's mistakes all the time.
Speaker 2: Absolute yeah, well not even that, but like my parents
Speaker 2: have had to have medical says, and the nurses is
Speaker 2: who we remember. I mean, obviously great doctors, but yeah,
Speaker 2: the nurses are truly the people that are the day
Speaker 2: to day care and comfort of my parents and the
Speaker 2: ones that are like during COVID, like talking on the
Speaker 2: phone explaining everything.
Speaker 1: And you're in Chicago when you shoot, where are you
Speaker 1: based regularly?
Speaker 5: So I was based out of la and doing the
Speaker 5: back and forth for the eighth season, and then at
Speaker 5: the end of the eighth season, right before the strike,
Speaker 5: my husband said, we got to stay local. You're in remission.
Speaker 5: We got two kids, we need one local, and you're
Speaker 5: about to resign your contract. So I just committed to Chicago.
Speaker 5: It's a great place too.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Fall in love with the place that you shoot
Speaker 6: something about it, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So we made home base in Chicago and just committed
Speaker 5: to this city for at least, you know how long.
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 4: That's great. Chicago's great.
Speaker 2: It's a great place because you do have the lake.
Speaker 2: I know, it's not a real beach, but it is
Speaker 2: nice and you get the skyline while you get to swim,
Speaker 2: and the food is good and it's gorgeous.
Speaker 5: The food is good, The food is good, and the
Speaker 5: food is good.
Speaker 6: It was never for a lack of a dinner.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Man, everything is good. Seafood is good here, steak is exceptional.
Speaker 5: And then you have all these Mischelin star like there
Speaker 5: are one missioning stars, but these restaurants and I'm a foodie.
Speaker 4: Well, and you have a linear if you really wanted to.
Speaker 6: That's that's what I was about to tell you, girl.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how did you go? Have you gone?
Speaker 6: I have an appointment to go. I have an appointment
Speaker 6: with a linea.
Speaker 5: Yes, okay, I've been waiting because my taste buds need
Speaker 5: to come back.
Speaker 4: Well you know about the chef and his journey with
Speaker 4: his Yeah, taste.
Speaker 6: Buds, Yes I do. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Wow, I'm so glad you're get to go.
Speaker 6: So excited, so excited.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've only seen people's like instagrams from it. I've
Speaker 2: not gone, but that's definitely a place of pride and
Speaker 2: for Chicago.
Speaker 4: And like Girl and the Goat, Some.
Speaker 5: Girl of the Goat is another one that I've been
Speaker 5: there multiple times.
Speaker 4: Yeah. They just built one in La Oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been to the La one and it's it
Speaker 1: was I went for my anniversary and was like I
Speaker 1: can't wait to go back.
Speaker 4: I love that place. Well.
Speaker 2: She's also the first female Top Chef winner from Chicago,
Speaker 2: so it's huge. I saw her eating mac and cheese
Speaker 2: once at a restaurant that whole.
Speaker 5: Loop section because that's where it is, and the Loop.
Speaker 6: I think y'all should drop a mic somewhere over there
Speaker 6: and do a podcast.
Speaker 2: Because the City Winery is over there. I used to
Speaker 2: be a salon receptionist in that neighborhood. There you go
Speaker 2: before all the restaurants, but Harpo Studios Oprah was there exactly,
Speaker 2: and so it was always young professionals getting blowouts.
Speaker 6: That's where I wanted to move.
Speaker 5: But I don't rest well, and that place turns into
Speaker 5: a club.
Speaker 6: Yeah, when you go on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, there's no resting.
Speaker 6: I would have burned everything over there because I would
Speaker 6: have been out every day.
Speaker 5: My kids would have grown up in restaurants, high chair
Speaker 5: in some of the best restaurants.
Speaker 6: That's what I've been.
Speaker 4: On the floor exactly.
Speaker 2: No, Mama, I actually just watched an Instagram video of
Speaker 2: a little baby eating caviar.
Speaker 4: Some baby that loves oysters. I don't know. I need
Speaker 4: to get off the internet.
Speaker 1: How old are your kids, Marlene? Do they eat like
Speaker 1: exotic foods? Yes, they do, because I have a two
Speaker 1: and I have a two and a.
Speaker 2: Four and they don't. They don't eat anything.
Speaker 6: Do you know rpm steakhouse?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: We went to the Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah and in Vegas.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so they've had RPM steakhouse. They're not appreciative. They
Speaker 6: just steak. Oh, I can chew this. These kids are
Speaker 6: on their way becoming too bougie with their pally.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: That's an issue because then when you put something in
Speaker 5: front of my daughter, she's like, no, I'm like, you're
Speaker 5: not going to go to restaurants every week?
Speaker 6: What do you think this is? Put this in your mouth?
Speaker 4: The boiled chicken.
Speaker 6: Eat the boiled chicken. So yeah, so my kids are two.
Speaker 4: You got twins? Oh you have twins? Twin Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So my son is two and a half and my
Speaker 1: daughter's four and a half. And he's much more adventurous
Speaker 1: than her. The younger one. He eats me and all
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff. The four year olds eats four meals
Speaker 1: that I rotate throughout the week. It's like so infuriating,
Speaker 1: but I know it's gonna change.
Speaker 2: I can't believe you have two year old twins.
Speaker 6: Two year old twins. You should see them. I just
Speaker 6: called them upstairs. Right now, you're gonna get a chance
Speaker 6: to see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my gosh, wait, is it a girl and a boy.
Speaker 6: You're about to meet them here they are. Brace yourself.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, Oh my gosh, look at.
Speaker 2: These beautiful little blues. Yeah, my cuties.
Speaker 6: They can't hear you.
Speaker 4: Hello, Hello, Oh my gosh. Wait, what are their names?
Speaker 6: Joshua, Joshua? Say hello, Joshua.
Speaker 7: Got away?
Speaker 6: Hy yah, there's Joshua and this is odd to see.
Speaker 7: Hi me me Hi.
Speaker 4: Guys are so cute their r names on.
Speaker 6: He's Joshua and they are They're amazing.
Speaker 4: Do you bring them to set?
Speaker 6: ROB set once. They actually were very calm in front
Speaker 6: of the You want your water, okay, here we go,
Speaker 6: you want my water? Well? I rob the set once
Speaker 6: and they were pretty remarkable. They were very calm in
Speaker 6: front of the camera. They're very calm in for the camera.
Speaker 6: They really enjoyed the entire experience. When it was time
Speaker 6: to leave, they were.
Speaker 4: Like, no, no, I like them with this big ass bottle.
Speaker 6: Big big, it's mine.
Speaker 5: The thing is I put a little bit of crystal
Speaker 5: light in my water, so I can do more water.
Speaker 2: That's a good idea. I have to start doing that
Speaker 2: again because I need a hydrate more. A little sprinkle
Speaker 2: is something to keep it interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a little pink lemonade.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they really enjoy.
Speaker 4: They're so cute. This is our first kid visit, first
Speaker 4: kid visit.
Speaker 1: We've had some dogs pop on the pod, but we
Speaker 1: have not had anybody's kids.
Speaker 2: My favorite. Well, you know what else? I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you? How does it feel to work in scrubs?
Speaker 2: Is that nice?
Speaker 4: Or it's like your same uniform every day pretty much?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 4: Or same costume?
Speaker 5: So I did this this TV series with Rose Burns
Speaker 5: called Damages.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, it's on our list. It's on our list
Speaker 1: to talk to you about it. It's my obsession. And
Speaker 1: I was it's on my list. It was like my
Speaker 1: next question after the scrubs.
Speaker 6: I tell you this show. Our heels were like this.
Speaker 6: When you got on it went cock Coca. Come then
Speaker 6: you it my toes? How long can I do this?
Speaker 6: You were done with cut We're out?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Then back on Coco Coco.
Speaker 5: It was the most extraordinary experience because the shoes were
Speaker 5: never broken.
Speaker 6: Into because it was brand new. So it's great, you
Speaker 6: look cute. Your feet hurt right now? I wear hookahs
Speaker 6: for a living.
Speaker 4: That's amazing.
Speaker 6: I get my feet massaged while I'm doing the sea.
Speaker 6: I have no words. And then the scrubs. You go
Speaker 6: to work with your pajamas. Every day, goals, goals, no complaints.
Speaker 2: Our friend has black hookahs and they look so good.
Speaker 2: I want to get them. I have the colorful ones,
Speaker 2: I want the black ones, I think.
Speaker 6: And haven't that they've progressively gotten cuter.
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes, at first they yeah, it was just like we
Speaker 2: don't care because we're just for running or something. And
Speaker 2: then they realized we would like in all black pair
Speaker 2: please thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really turned into a fashion shoe because when
Speaker 1: I first saw them, they were just for athletics.
Speaker 2: And now it's fashion baby.
Speaker 6: Now they have commercials that look like the Apple commercials.
Speaker 6: Did you see the one where they're walking on water?
Speaker 4: I haven't seen any of these commercials.
Speaker 6: You see it up?
Speaker 4: Wait, so let's get to Damages. Tell me everything Rose
Speaker 4: Byrne Glenn Close. How was I mean? That show was
Speaker 4: like drugs to me?
Speaker 1: Like I always talk about how I would be watching
Speaker 1: it till three in the morning, and then I'd be like,
Speaker 1: what's the difference if I go to bed at three
Speaker 1: or I go to about at four, you know, and
Speaker 1: I would like to watch one more like I was
Speaker 1: so hooked on it.
Speaker 5: I mean, they're geniuses, they're phenomenal actors. You're sitting there
Speaker 5: in this room and it was I remember one time
Speaker 5: it was Glenn myself, Ted Danson, Jelco.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, he's a SVU. He's a SVU alum so talented.
Speaker 1: His character was having sex with his biological daughter and
Speaker 1: kept getting her pregnant though so not not great, not great,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's SVU.
Speaker 5: That makes absolute sense when it comes to him. He's
Speaker 5: just a genius in the way that he performs.
Speaker 4: He's so good.
Speaker 6: He's really good.
Speaker 5: Fun fact is I think at the table read he
Speaker 5: got a standing away clapping situation the table read wow
Speaker 5: Wow for free damages, like who wins that one? I
Speaker 5: remember Glenn saying that something like that. He yet the
Speaker 5: standing ovation for the best table read ever because normally
Speaker 5: you going into the table reading, he tried to.
Speaker 6: Read as flat as possible. Not him. His flat was Oscar.
Speaker 1: I want them to like bring back Damages. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: they couldn't. But it was so that's a great show.
Speaker 1: I don't know what about it. It like hooked me
Speaker 1: so hard.
Speaker 5: Yes, I was doing that, and that's when simultaneously.
Speaker 6: I booked The Wire.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that became my conflict.
Speaker 5: So I had to commit somewhere and I couldn't commit
Speaker 5: to Damages anymore, okay, because it was The Wire and
Speaker 5: the character was going you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and The Wire has like so much Law and
Speaker 1: Order crossover.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and it's it's just another cult genius type you
Speaker 5: know show.
Speaker 6: It's just amazing.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say something. You mentioned the table
Speaker 2: read flatly. I was horrified once I have been haunted
Speaker 2: because one of my friends was at a table read
Speaker 2: and she acted too casual and they replaced her. Since
Speaker 2: since I heard that, because like the bigger, more established
Speaker 2: actors were being more casual and she was new, and
Speaker 2: then the character was named after her and the table
Speaker 2: read alo bad. They got rid of her, and since then,
Speaker 2: if I'm ever in that situation, I go like full
Speaker 2: out because I'm so terrified.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, well, let me just let me clarify. Let me
Speaker 5: clarified what I mean that you're playing it flat when
Speaker 5: there is a tone to the character, there is a
Speaker 5: rhythm to the writing, there is a layout to the
Speaker 5: scene that you are giving, which you're not given is
Speaker 5: a one hundred performance, Yeah, but you're giving everything that
Speaker 5: he's needed for them to get the temperature of the scene.
Speaker 6: You're giving that.
Speaker 2: Oh, because I saw a video of like Lady Gaga
Speaker 2: once at a table read singing for shallow, and I
Speaker 2: was always wondering, like, did she really have to.
Speaker 4: Do that or not? But that probably gave the temperature.
Speaker 2: Like you're saying, yeah, yeah, you need the tone of
Speaker 2: the scene, but you're doing it from a place where
Speaker 2: you know, you're at your place and your your focused work.
Speaker 6: You're not engaging with the actor next to you.
Speaker 5: You're not like fully physical, but you are giving I
Speaker 5: would say a twenty five percent.
Speaker 2: No. I think she was trying to be a little
Speaker 2: too cool and she probably still lets to prove herself
Speaker 2: a little and yeah, yeah, she learned a lesson that day.
Speaker 6: Still a job, It's still a job.
Speaker 4: I got to write that down. It's still a job.
Speaker 4: I got to remember that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's still a job, and you're graduating. I think
Speaker 5: it connects back to the sbu cage situation where you know,
Speaker 5: when you come out of school and you're trying to
Speaker 5: figure out who you want to be, what you.
Speaker 6: Want to do, and all that jazz.
Speaker 5: I think you have a lot of questions about does
Speaker 5: my talent translate on screen?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Can I perform at the level of the big guns
Speaker 6: that are around you?
Speaker 5: And I think what happens is if you go to
Speaker 5: the table reads that you don't risk because you're too
Speaker 5: nervous and you're too intimidated by the people that are there,
Speaker 5: you'll never learn how to believe in yourself and risk
Speaker 5: on screen. I think that's what it was when you
Speaker 5: ask me about this Wolf Universe thing, is that I
Speaker 5: found that when I worked with them, I was able
Speaker 5: to test the temperature of my craft.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it all came together.
Speaker 5: For me in such a way that it really made
Speaker 5: sense that I was an actor.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It gave me an environment to safely flourish where I'm
Speaker 5: not worrying about any me too, craziness happening to me.
Speaker 5: And you know, you're a young lady, You're aware that
Speaker 5: you know there's crazy that's potentially out there, and they
Speaker 5: create such an atmosphere of ethics integrity, all that stuff
Speaker 5: that your creativity just starts.
Speaker 6: Great, So I think that's what it is.
Speaker 5: Connie Nielsen, I remember in that episode really having an
Speaker 5: impression on me.
Speaker 6: Such a presence. She had great presence.
Speaker 5: She was this pinning me of femininity, gorgeous, and she
Speaker 5: walks in and she reminds me of gal Gadou before
Speaker 5: gal Gado. Yeah, that's what she reminds me of. So
Speaker 5: I wasn't surprised that they paired them together.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a tough episode for her character.
Speaker 1: You know, she's really like considering whether she can even
Speaker 1: do the job.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting.
Speaker 4: She's good.
Speaker 1: She does a good job in that one. Interview went
Speaker 1: really full circle. Yeah, it was beautiful, Marlene. This has
Speaker 1: been so amazing. Thank you for taking the time to
Speaker 1: talk to us. Yeah, thanks for being so open so much.
Speaker 1: What a tree and showing us your cute kids and
Speaker 1: the kids a podcast first for us.
Speaker 4: And enjoy Alnia. You deserve it.
Speaker 6: I will I will thank you lady, such an honor.
Speaker 6: Ye Okay, bye.
Speaker 4: She was so fun. I love her.
Speaker 1: First time we've gotten to see babies on our podcast zooms.
Speaker 2: I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I know those little babies into our lives were so cute.
Speaker 2: That was so fun and just like the journey of everyone.
Speaker 2: And I don't know, cancer sucks.
Speaker 4: What the fuck? Yeah fucked? And as you get older,
Speaker 4: it's just like it's all around.
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people need to start like what are the scientists
Speaker 2: up to?
Speaker 4: What are those fucking scientists up to?
Speaker 2: Its time, like get it together, cure cancer and you know,
Speaker 2: invent teleportation.
Speaker 4: I just don't know if that's too much to ask for.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four, because I know the military has cool technology,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like give us some of it,
Speaker 2: yeah or not.
Speaker 4: I don't know why I brought up the military.
Speaker 1: Really crazy of me, But well, let's get into our postmortem.
Speaker 4: I would say.
Speaker 2: What I've learned is it doesn't matter how cute baby
Speaker 2: el Fanning is. You don't bring her into the house.
Speaker 2: She might start a fire. She will burn your house down.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, baby el Fanning no one to fuck with.
Speaker 4: Do not do not fuck around with that little nug.
Speaker 2: And it's not like this episode, but we talk about
Speaker 2: it on this channel before. But like, you know, I
Speaker 2: think adopting, fostering, doing all that is like very amazing.
Speaker 2: But like these children might have problems and you have
Speaker 2: to be equipped to it. You can't just chain them
Speaker 2: in a cage. Yeah you know what I mean, Like, yes,
Speaker 2: they're gonna have some trauma. They've been passed around, like
Speaker 2: I just yeah, there's just more to it than like,
Speaker 2: oh I'm gonna take this kid.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they might start a fire.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: Also, it's like it's like how we just talk about
Speaker 1: however you become a parent. It shouldn't just be like
Speaker 1: about you. It's not about you, yes, touche, however you
Speaker 1: are becoming a parent in your life and being a parent.
Speaker 1: It's just like, if there's anything I learned on the daily,
Speaker 1: nothing is about me. It's always about these little kids
Speaker 1: and how they're doing.
Speaker 4: How are they doing? How are they doing? They're funny.
Speaker 1: Rosy keeps posing like a model in the pictures and
Speaker 1: going on fashion. I know, I posted one on their Instagram,
Speaker 1: but like then she just did another one today where
Speaker 1: they put my boots on this morning, and then she
Speaker 1: just posed like with her stomach out and like her
Speaker 1: hand on her hip and like a like a scowl,
Speaker 1: And I was like, what's happening, Like, you know, she's
Speaker 1: doing a theater camp this summer, like this could be it.
Speaker 1: I might never see her again. Wait, where is she
Speaker 1: going to theater camp?
Speaker 2: I'll tell you. I read, I'll tell you about it.
Speaker 2: This is so exciting. So last summer she's going to
Speaker 2: be doing theater. It's three weeks.
Speaker 1: She's doing a bunch of camps, but this one is
Speaker 1: the longest, which is one of the reasons I chose
Speaker 1: it because it's three full weeks and I don't have
Speaker 1: to like every other week. You know, the way that
Speaker 1: you do camp here in La, it's like fucking these
Speaker 1: piecemeal camps. Is it just La or is it the future?
Speaker 2: Because yeah, I just remember you went to camp, even
Speaker 2: it was a day camp for eight weeks and you
Speaker 2: that's it.
Speaker 1: Like I don't remember these games. I know pre me
Speaker 1: going to sleep away camp. I went to YMCA camps
Speaker 1: like just in the summer and on spring breaks and stuff,
Speaker 1: and it was not like hard to in. They were
Speaker 1: just like the YMCA camps. And here it's just like
Speaker 1: trying to get your kid into like good camps that
Speaker 1: will be like enriching in the summer, because you know,
Speaker 1: kids like the argument for year round school is that
Speaker 1: kids need they lose a lot in the summer, so
Speaker 1: you want them to be doing programs that are not
Speaker 1: just like fucking around, I guess. But back to the
Speaker 1: postmortem of this episode, I wanted to talk more about
Speaker 1: summer camp. I know, I do tay sessions. I don't
Speaker 1: actually really even know what else to say. I think
Speaker 1: it's just like, you know, yeah, this is bad.
Speaker 2: This is bad, like the government should not be giving children.
Speaker 2: It's just like the people that want to adopt children
Speaker 2: that are so ready and want it so bad it's
Speaker 2: a forever expensive, wild nightmare. And then for some reason,
Speaker 2: who is this Margot Martindale gets to fucking shame them up.
Speaker 1: But also like in terms of the real story of
Speaker 1: the mom who was at the end of her rope,
Speaker 1: which is why she took her daughter to this fucking quack, Like,
Speaker 1: I think that there needs to be more resources for
Speaker 1: like men health in general, because you know, I wish
Speaker 1: that this woman had had somewhere else to turn that
Speaker 1: was not a rebirthing class in the middle of fucking
Speaker 1: rural Colorado or whatever.
Speaker 2: And yeah, make sure people are qualified and what they're
Speaker 2: saying they're doing. I yeah, sometimes we get to the
Speaker 2: post mortem and I forget about the real crime because
Speaker 2: I want it out of my brain, and then it
Speaker 2: settles back in and I remember the darkness.
Speaker 1: And no, it's there for the rest of the day.
Speaker 1: It's fun, the darkness we truly live in. Well, we
Speaker 1: can make this one short. This is a jumbo episode,
Speaker 1: I would say, because we had so much fun with Marlene.
Speaker 1: But let's get into what would mister Peg do our
Speaker 1: weekly segment where we direct you guys to an organization,
Speaker 1: a blog post, an article, a website, something to give
Speaker 1: you more info about what we talked about today. And
Speaker 1: I found this website called Childreninthapy dot org and it's
Speaker 1: also known as Advocates for Children in Therapy or ACT.
Speaker 1: ACT is a nonprofit concerned with the methods used in
Speaker 1: the tr even of children's mental health. And they had
Speaker 1: a lot of information about attachment therapy and things we
Speaker 1: talked about in today's episode. And they obviously are not
Speaker 1: for it, and they advocate for humane, non violent, and
Speaker 1: scientifically validated treatments and they work to raise public awareness
Speaker 1: on this topic, oppose governmental support and subsidies towards unvalidated practices,
Speaker 1: and alert professional organizations to inappropriate promotion of these practices.
Speaker 1: So seemed like a cool organization, and they also had
Speaker 1: a lot of links just to different stuff that I
Speaker 1: found really interesting. So they note on their website that
Speaker 1: there is a lot of information about attachment therapy, but
Speaker 1: they are not doctors, so you can proceed at your
Speaker 1: own risk checking out this site. I just thought they
Speaker 1: had a lot of interesting information on there. And yeah,
Speaker 1: as always, this will be posted in our stories the
Speaker 1: day the episode comes out and will be saved forever
Speaker 1: in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram, which is that
Speaker 1: smussed up pod. Go and follow us if you haven't
Speaker 1: given us a little follow, We're on there. We're talking
Speaker 1: to you in the DMS. We're posting bunshit.
Speaker 2: Yeah you know, rate review, subscribe, give us a follow,
Speaker 2: and next week we will be doing Perverted Justice Season sixteen,
Speaker 2: episode twenty one.
Speaker 4: See you there, baby? What it b square? Mean?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 4: Squares are fine? Wait? What do you mean?
Speaker 5: You know? Be there?
Speaker 4: Be square? What does that matter?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: Being a square was bad in like the fifties and
Speaker 1: meant being a nerd, right, But like we're such a square?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: What is that?
Speaker 1: I don't know, rigid even on all sides, I don't know.
Speaker 1: See you guys next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at kraklank and at glitterch Please.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our producer Casey O'Brien and
Speaker 2: our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to.
Speaker 1: Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner,
Speaker 1: and to Henry Koperski for our theme song, and Carly
Speaker 1: Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 4: Dun dun