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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here on Garrison Davis. This

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Speaker 2: is the show where we talk about how everything is

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Speaker 2: kind of falling apart and how we can sometimes put

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Speaker 2: it back together. Joining me is as my my dear

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Speaker 2: dear collaborator and friend, James Stout. Good morning, James.

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Speaker 1: Good morning Garrison. That's very kind of you, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: And we got a very special episode here today. We

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Speaker 2: are talking with four people who have put together a

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Speaker 2: new book by AKA Press called No Parseran. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: have kind of a little bit of a like a

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Speaker 2: group discussion about anti fascist history and this kind of

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Speaker 2: this the state of anti fascism in the past few years.

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Speaker 2: I know, this is how I kind of got started

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Speaker 2: with radical politics growing up in Portland, Oregon. You see

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Speaker 2: Nazis marching around in your street and you're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: this is obviously a problem, so much a problem, do

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Speaker 2: something about this. And stuff has changed a lot the

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Speaker 2: past the past few years. I mean, like the anti

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Speaker 2: fatist movement that I got kind of that I kind

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Speaker 2: of got into only twenty eighteen. You know, it's very

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Speaker 2: different now, and it's I don't know, these types of

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Speaker 2: things live on through like oral histories as well as

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Speaker 2: you know, books, and I think it's really cool to

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Speaker 2: have these types of conversations. So joining us today is

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Speaker 2: Shane Burley, Emily Gorcinski, Michael Novic, and Darryl Lamont Jenkins.

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Speaker 2: Greetings everyone, I'm going to hand it over to Shane

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Speaker 2: and you can kind of talk about the book.

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Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, Thanks Scarrison, Thanks James for having us

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Speaker 3: on the whole crew of us. Yeah, this book was

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Speaker 3: something came out last year, but we had been working

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Speaker 3: on it for about four years. I'm starting in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: I was drunk with Kim Kelly and New York and

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Speaker 3: we thought it'd be really great to put together something

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Speaker 3: with all of our friends. And what do you do

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Speaker 3: with a big group of people. It takes like four

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Speaker 3: or five years to pull off. But really the idea

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Speaker 3: was trying to do something that was bigger than what

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Speaker 3: had been written about anti fascism at that point, which

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Speaker 3: was shockingly narrow. What people understood it as of just

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Speaker 3: a few movements, mostly very recent history, and so much

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Speaker 3: wasn't being included in that conversation. So the idea was,

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Speaker 3: how can we build out like a much bigger picture

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Speaker 3: of this by including as many voices as possible. So

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Speaker 3: we ended up getting a couple of dozen folks together

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Speaker 3: that had different takes on it. Some talking about tech,

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Speaker 3: some talking about deep history, some talking about anti fascism

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Speaker 3: in their countries, o their continents, and so in general,

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Speaker 3: the idea was to make it feel like a discussion

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Speaker 3: between people who either know each other or should be

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Speaker 3: like in some kind of comradeship with each other. So

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Speaker 3: that was sort of where it came together. I think

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Speaker 3: with this conversation. The way we were thinking about this

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Speaker 3: is I want I wanted the opportunity to talk with

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Speaker 3: basically my friends about their history a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: so I asked three folks that had a really long

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Speaker 3: history with doing organizing work, and so I thought it

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Speaker 3: would be cool maybe if we go through talking to

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Speaker 3: them a little bit about their prehistory or their early

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Speaker 3: history organizing. And Michael, your history goes back the furthest

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Speaker 3: as you know, we know, so I thought we could

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Speaker 3: kick off with you and then talk with Emily and

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Speaker 3: then Darryl just kind of getting into your background. So

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Speaker 3: how do you get started in movement work? I actually I

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Speaker 3: should say first, when did you get started in movement work.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so I sometimes felt a little bit of

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Speaker 4: a dinosaur. I was born in nineteen forty seven, so

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Speaker 4: the fascism in power was a fairly recent reality in

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Speaker 4: my life. My father was a immigrant from Poland. I

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Speaker 4: came here in the thirties. Most of his family was

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Speaker 4: destroyed in Biello Stoke. They had uprising there similar to

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Speaker 4: the Warsaw Ghetto r Almost everybody was lipidated in that process.

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Speaker 4: So there's a family history there for me. Also obviously

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Speaker 4: grew up in the shadow of you know, the US

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Speaker 4: atomic bombing of Rosa Manakasaki and the US incarceration of

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Speaker 4: Japanese Americans and concentration camps, so you know, those are

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Speaker 4: realities in my life. I've lived in a you know,

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Speaker 4: orthodox Jewish immigrant working class family and neighborhood in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 4: which is now dominated by extremely right wing forces. Borough Park.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the bastions of probably you know, neo

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Speaker 4: fascist Republican prosionists. But somehow, when I grew up there

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Speaker 4: that was not the case. Anyway. I got involved in

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Speaker 4: politics in the sixties and you know, student movement stuff,

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Speaker 4: anti war stuff, and at Brooklyn College, which when I

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Speaker 4: was there, it was free public four year college part

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Speaker 4: of the City University System in New York, and I

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Speaker 4: was actually eventually elected student body president. They had liquidated

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Speaker 4: the student government earlier when you know, people opposed the

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Speaker 4: Korean War, and we had a struggle to get you know,

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Speaker 4: for student rights and anti war stuff and so on,

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Speaker 4: and we succeeded in getting student body elections for offices

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Speaker 4: for the first time in about a dozen years. But

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Speaker 4: you know, as part of all that anti war and

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Speaker 4: anti police brutality and other stuff that was going on

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Speaker 4: in Brooklyn at the time, and then we raised the

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Speaker 4: question of the fact that Brooklyn College was ninety eight

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Speaker 4: percent white, white in a borough that even then was

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Speaker 4: you know, majority black in Puerto Rican, and suddenly all

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Speaker 4: the student support we had had for all the other

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Speaker 4: struggles cops off the campus and you know, avy up

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Speaker 4: the campus and so on, and we got you know,

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Speaker 4: dean of students fired and other stuff. But as soon

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Speaker 4: as we raised the question of opening the campus up

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Speaker 4: and having open admissions to the City University system and

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Speaker 4: a special emissions program for black and Puerto Rican high

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Speaker 4: school students, most of our students support have oporated. And

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Speaker 4: for me, that was an object lesson that unless you're

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Speaker 4: you know, consciously organizing about internalized and institutionalized racism, everything

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Speaker 4: else you do that is you know, progressive or anti

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Speaker 4: imperialist or anti war is kind of a house of

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Speaker 4: cards or you know, castles made of sand. And in

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Speaker 4: particular and raising those issues, we discovered that there was

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Speaker 4: a fascist element down the campus. There were people who

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Speaker 4: formed the Early Jewish Defense League in Brooklyn who were

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Speaker 4: primarily anti black. And also there's a group called the

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Speaker 4: youth what is it, Young Americans for Vitom YAF, which

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Speaker 4: was like the youth wing of the National Review, right

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Speaker 4: wing Republican formation, and they were pretty openly fascistic in

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Speaker 4: their politics. So, you know, it became a question that

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Speaker 4: if you were doing you know, anti racist and anti

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Speaker 4: war an anti capitalist organizing, you were going to face

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Speaker 4: not just you know, a struggle against the force of

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Speaker 4: the state, but that there were reactionary elements within particularly

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Speaker 4: white society, and I think because of set the colonialism,

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Speaker 4: you know, there's a mass base for that. And struck

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Speaker 4: by the title of the show just say, I don't

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Speaker 4: know if people are familiar with the book, it can't

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Speaker 4: happen here, but Obviously your title is a reflection it

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Speaker 4: could happen here. I think it has happened here. For

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Speaker 4: one thing, I think the fashion has always been an

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Speaker 4: element of US political culture because of settle colonialism. You know,

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Speaker 4: I mean definition of fascism is that it's bringing the

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Speaker 4: methods of rule of the colonies into the metropol But

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Speaker 4: the US is a settler colony, and therefore there are

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Speaker 4: colonized people inside this country, you know, always have been,

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Speaker 4: and so fascistic elements of you know, slave labor, genocide,

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Speaker 4: you know, land theft, all the rest have always been

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Speaker 4: part and part of that is also creating that mass

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Speaker 4: base within the settler population that supports you know, that leadership.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, I think that that you know that both

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Speaker 4: those personal aspects and that consciousness, and so I came

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Speaker 4: in contact with, you know, the very radical forces in

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Speaker 4: the Black Freedom Circle. Back then, the Black Panther Party

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Speaker 4: is very active. There was one of the people in

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Speaker 4: the Black Student Union joined the Black Panther Party. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's a period of very fascist attacks and the Panthers

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Speaker 4: had formed the National Committee of the Combat Fascism and

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Speaker 4: had an analysis that you know, the US was fascistic,

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Speaker 4: and you know, George Jackson at that time said, you know,

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Speaker 4: fascism is already here, and I think he meant it,

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Speaker 4: you know, literally, And so that's part of the perspective

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Speaker 4: I've carried through for you know, I don't know what

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Speaker 4: that is sixty years now close.

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Speaker 3: To Yeah, I mean, I think really quickly, I would

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Speaker 3: like to hear kind of what your experience was with

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Speaker 3: forming John Brown. Where did the idea come from? Because

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Speaker 3: I think for a lot of a lot of people

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Speaker 3: are thinking of recent anti fascist American anti fascist history

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Speaker 3: that ends up being kind of a starting point for

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Speaker 3: a certain kind of no platform tactic. So how did

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Speaker 3: you first kind of develop that? What brought you in?

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, just to say, I was, you know, coming

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Speaker 4: out of the movement as I did, I moved from

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Speaker 4: New York to California because there was a strong There

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Speaker 4: was a newspaper called the Movement, which was the newspaper

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Speaker 4: basically of friends of Snick. It was the people who

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Speaker 4: left Snick when Snick adopted a black power analysis and

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Speaker 4: said that white people who were involved should go organize

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Speaker 4: in the white community. And there was a you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of a I was part of a Working Class

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Speaker 4: Organizing Collective in Hayward, California. Eventually, out of that I

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Speaker 4: got connected with, you know, some of the people that

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Speaker 4: later formed Prairie Fire Organized Committee. I was in a

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Speaker 4: group in the Bay Area called the June twenty eighth Union.

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Speaker 4: It was a gay ends, pro socialist, anti imperiallests, pro

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Speaker 4: feminist collective of mostly people of European decent. And we

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Speaker 4: went to what was called the Hard Times Conference, which

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Speaker 4: was put on by Prairie Far Organizing Committee in Chicago,

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Speaker 4: and it turned out that there was secretly an effort

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Speaker 4: by the weather underground to come up from underground to

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Speaker 4: create a new communist party, and they serviced that at

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Speaker 4: that conference. But there's a lot of opposition to that

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Speaker 4: from across the board, from different Black liberation, American Indian Movement,

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Speaker 4: the Puerto Rican in Deepending, the struggled Chicago movement to

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Speaker 4: all of them, you know, felt that there was a

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Speaker 4: sell out of the politics there anyway. Out of that

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Speaker 4: process I was part of, I joined a Prairie Fire

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Speaker 4: Organized Committee eventually, and that split and then there was

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Speaker 4: a West Coast group which captained Prairie Far. The East

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Speaker 4: coast formed a group called the main eineteenth communist organization,

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Speaker 4: and they launched the original John Brown Anti Clan Committee,

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Speaker 4: an initiative from the prisons. The organized prisoners in New

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Speaker 4: York had discovered that there was an extensive network of

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Speaker 4: clan claverns that were based in the prison guards and

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Speaker 4: some of the white prisoners, and they asked for outside

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Speaker 4: supporters to begin to expose that and deal with it

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Speaker 4: and help them deal with it. And John Brand of

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Speaker 4: the Gillen Committee was formed out of that. Separately, very

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Speaker 4: far on the West Coast had formed a group called

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Speaker 4: take a Stand against the Klan. There was a lot

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Speaker 4: of you know, that was the period that the beginning

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Speaker 4: of the notification of the clan that was going on.

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Speaker 4: So this is the seventies and eventually, you know, under

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Speaker 4: a challenge from particular the New African Independence movement, the

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Speaker 4: Malcolm XS grassroots movement New African People's Organization which both

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Speaker 4: Praise Fire on the West Coast and May nineteenth and

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Speaker 4: the East Coast were connected to. They pushed for a

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Speaker 4: joint organization. So at that point there was a kind

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Speaker 4: of reconstitution of John Burnett the Clan Committee, and so

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Speaker 4: I was part of that and we merged. You know,

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Speaker 4: there were chapters in Atlanta, Chicago, the Bay Area, Los

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Speaker 4: Angeles where I ended up in New York, I think

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Speaker 4: Bowling Green, maybe the couple of Connecticut, and so they

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Speaker 4: were quite active in that period, and you know, street

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Speaker 4: level confrontations and you know other exposures of early Neo

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Speaker 4: Nazi activity and clan activity, but particularly from a perspective

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Speaker 4: of conscious and active solidarity with the Black freedom struggling,

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Speaker 4: particularly the New African Independence movement, which is a very

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Speaker 4: high level of unity, and over a period of time,

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Speaker 4: you know, there was a struggle to broaden that out

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Speaker 4: and try to be a more all embracing organization that

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Speaker 4: could relate to the struggle. There were a lot of

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Speaker 4: different formations at that time. There was the National Anti

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Speaker 4: Clan Network, and there was a couple of others, and

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Speaker 4: there were differing politics among all of them. And you know,

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Speaker 4: John Branda Clink made that time, took more of a

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Speaker 4: position of pro direct action and also, as they say,

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Speaker 4: conscious solidated with the Black freedom struggle as a basis

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Speaker 4: for doing that work.

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Speaker 3: Anti Clan Network. I think so people kind of know

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Speaker 3: that's where the Southern Poverty Law Center eventually came out

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Speaker 3: of another networks of these different groups out here in Oregon.

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Speaker 3: The Rural Organizing Project was sort of like a down

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Speaker 3: the line there. I think it's interesting too about the

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Speaker 3: found story. I was talking with our mutual friend Lisa Roth,

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Speaker 3: who was part of the founding of that. Very first

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Speaker 3: iteration of the John Brown Committee was they were doing

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Speaker 3: a prison organizing with Black Panthers and Upstate New York

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Speaker 3: and they were writing these letters saying the prison guards

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Speaker 3: are clan and they thought, you mean they're really racist,

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Speaker 3: you know, obviously they're the prison guards. Yeah, And when

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Speaker 3: they went and looked it up. No, the president of

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Speaker 3: the prison's guard union was the Grand Dragon of the

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Speaker 3: State KKK, and they.

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Speaker 4: Were actually he had a position within the prison system

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Speaker 4: as the head of the sort of education activity educational

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Speaker 4: activities in the prisons, and was using his formal position

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Speaker 4: within the prison system to organize white prisoners along with

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Speaker 4: the guards into clan clamorance.

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Speaker 3: Which seems like a total That was sort of a

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Speaker 3: validation with the centerpiece of John Brown being that cops

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Speaker 3: and clan have that kind of collaboration, because that was

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Speaker 3: their kind of the founding like lesson of that organizing.

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Speaker 4: Sure, the blue by day, White by night, and a

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Speaker 4: lot of those slogans come out of that period, and

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Speaker 4: you know, I think it is you know, it's related

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Speaker 4: to the later the aar A line that you know,

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Speaker 4: fascism is built from above and below that there's you know,

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Speaker 4: elements within the state that are operating independently, but there

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Speaker 4: are also state forces and then they're you know independent, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so called revolutionary fascists that claim to be opposing the state,

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Speaker 4: but we're not really.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think to fast forward a little bit, quite

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Speaker 3: a bit, Emily, I don't remember when we first met

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Speaker 3: each other. Obviously it was probably shortly after Unite the

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Speaker 3: Right happened. But how did you first get drawn into organizing?

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Speaker 3: Did you have a long history before that happened, or

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Speaker 3: were you just part of getting involved around the ramp

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Speaker 3: up to that now?

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Speaker 5: I think, you know, compared to the other folks here,

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Speaker 5: I'm sort of the summer child of the of the group, right,

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Speaker 5: I don't have a super long history in organizing. I

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Speaker 5: think that, you know, I came to anti fascism before

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Speaker 5: Unite the Right happened. I work in the tech industry

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Speaker 5: and sometimes sort of around the gamer Gate era, I

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Speaker 5: started noticing how white supremacist the tech industry had become.

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Speaker 6: Right, it was.

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Speaker 5: Sort of this nexus for a lot of this strongly libertarian,

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Speaker 5: strongly supremacist mindset. It was sort of the worst of

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Speaker 5: that meritocratic ideal that a lot of us had to

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Speaker 5: experience in university and in our workplaces, and it just

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Speaker 5: seemed like it was getting out of control. And that

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Speaker 5: was kind of at the same time that we were

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Speaker 5: seeing a lot more women come into the tech industry,

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Speaker 5: we were starting to see a lot of changes in

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Speaker 5: the space.

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Speaker 6: And then there was sort of like this this.

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Speaker 5: Vacuum left by gamer Gate, as that all sort of

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Speaker 5: died down, A lot of this sort of energy needed

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Speaker 5: to go somewhere, and so I started speaking out against

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Speaker 5: some white supremacist organizing that was happening at conferences and

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Speaker 5: things like that. And I think the first wake up

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Speaker 5: call for me happened when some folks that are are

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Speaker 5: linked to Milo Yanapolists put together a list of of

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Speaker 5: SGW social justice warriors and this was journalists and activists

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Speaker 5: and people who were speaking out and I somehow made

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Speaker 5: that list. And I realized, after you know, looking at

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Speaker 5: this and seeing what was going on that being a

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Speaker 5: political being sort of just somebody with an opinion, wasn't

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Speaker 5: you know, there was no way to be that wasn't

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Speaker 5: a defense against what was coming. And so I just

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Speaker 5: sort of looked inside and said, well, if this is

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Speaker 5: the way it's going to be, like I'm going to

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Speaker 5: fight back, I'm gonna I'm going to figure out what

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Speaker 5: to do.

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Speaker 6: I didn't really have a lot of organizing ties.

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Speaker 5: They didn't really have a network, so like every other person,

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Speaker 5: I just you know, shouted at Twitter and somehow that worked.

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Speaker 5: The irony of this all is that all this was

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Speaker 5: going on, I was starting to do you know, digital activism,

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Speaker 5: using my tech skills to try to shine.

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Speaker 6: Light on things that were wrong in the.

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Speaker 5: Federal government and the Trump administration and things like that,

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Speaker 5: and I really just wanted to step away from that.

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Speaker 5: I kind of had like I went to Prague after

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Speaker 5: Trump was inaugurated. I wanted to like, you know, clear

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Speaker 5: the air a little bit. I didn't like the fact

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Speaker 5: that I was on this hit list that was put

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Speaker 5: together by people who have like a couple of handshakes

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Speaker 5: away from.

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Speaker 6: The president's desk. So I went to Europe.

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Speaker 5: I went to Prague and I cleared my head, and

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Speaker 5: when I came back, I said, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 5: going to just focus on local activism. I'm going to

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Speaker 5: focus on the issues that are in my community. I

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Speaker 5: knew that we had things going on with our local

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Speaker 5: low income housing space, we had a lot of you know,

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Speaker 5: stuff around the statues that was coming up in town,

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Speaker 5: and I didn't really expect, like it was kind of

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Speaker 5: random that Unite the Right was you know, destined for Charlottesville,

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Speaker 5: and so all of the work, all of the organizing

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Speaker 5: that I had started to do that spring, and that

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Speaker 5: where I guess that winter in that spring started to

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Speaker 5: pay off, as you know, as Charlottesville became the target

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Speaker 5: of all of the neo Nazis. So I think it

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Speaker 5: was sort of I don't want to say it's it's fortunate,

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Speaker 5: because it's not really the greatest, like it's not a

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Speaker 5: positive thing that that's what happened. But I guess that

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Speaker 5: I am lucky that as I came to this awakening,

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Speaker 5: it was happening you know, before and not after, and

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Speaker 5: that I was able to use the network that I

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Speaker 5: was building, the audience I was building in order to

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Speaker 5: help like back. So yeah, I guess that's that's sort

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Speaker 5: of like, I don't know that I would have been,

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Speaker 5: you know, as much as dedicated as I was if

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Speaker 5: it wasn't for that very personal sort of experience. And

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Speaker 5: I look back at that like I'm kind of embarrassed

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Speaker 5: by that. But you know, we all have our own paths.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think, you know, there's something interesting about

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Speaker 3: that year in advance of the Unite the Right, where

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Speaker 3: where different groups were testing the waters a little bit,

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Speaker 3: and how that was their ability to ramp up in

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Speaker 3: the area, but it was also the anti fascist ability

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Speaker 3: to ramp up, you know, So talking with Mimi and

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Speaker 3: other organizers there, like those earlier events like the earlier

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Speaker 3: Clan rally that happened like you know, months earlier, or

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Speaker 3: kind of those that early flash mob that Richard Spencer

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Speaker 3: led that gave people the opportunity to build up the base.

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Speaker 3: So how did you kind of shift to focusing on

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Speaker 3: that first? I guess how did you hear about Unite

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Speaker 3: the Riots, this big kind of like target event, But

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Speaker 3: what was the steps along the way there?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think one of the things that really that

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Speaker 5: I really tried to do that year was to use

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Speaker 5: the experience I was having traveling to try to understand

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Speaker 5: the history of movements that were against you.

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Speaker 6: Know, great state powers.

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Speaker 5: Right when I was in Prague, I spent a lot

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Speaker 5: of time reading about and looking into and walking through

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Speaker 5: the sites of where the Prague Spring took place, and

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Speaker 5: where the Deil Revolution took place, and how these groups

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Speaker 5: of people were able to overcome this massive amount of

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Speaker 5: state violence and still be successful. And when Richard Spencer

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Speaker 5: first came to town that first flashbob is now called

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Speaker 5: Charlottesville one point zero.

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Speaker 6: I was in Berlin at the time. I woke up

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Speaker 6: to see what was going on.

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Speaker 5: And it was, you know, I think again just sort

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Speaker 5: of these you know, the universe coming into alignment. As

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Speaker 5: that was happening, there's also this big anti Nazi demonstration

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Speaker 5: that was happening in Berlin. So I took that opportunity

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Speaker 5: to go and learn about what anti fascists are doing

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Speaker 5: in other countries and other localities, how they are organizing,

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Speaker 5: how they spread their message, and so I think that,

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Speaker 5: you know, as I learned about all of this going on,

387
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Speaker 5: what the first thing that I tried to do is

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Speaker 5: just look around and say, what can we learn from

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Speaker 5: people who have been here before? Who have done this

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Speaker 5: before and have this in their living memory, and that's

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Speaker 5: what I tried to take back to Charlottesville. And then,

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Speaker 5: you know, I think it was after that trip. I

393
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Speaker 5: was in Berlin in May. I came back for that trip.

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Speaker 5: I joined in the anti fascist march almost as soon

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Speaker 5: as I got back, and that's when we had heard

396
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Speaker 5: we've learned about the two rallies, the July eighth KKK

397
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Speaker 5: rally and the August twelfth Unite the Right, And at

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Speaker 5: that point, like from that moment, it was just like

399
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Speaker 5: every waking moment of my day was spent organizing for

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Speaker 5: those for those rallies.

401
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Speaker 3: It's the sort of effect that just circumstance sort of

402
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Speaker 3: speeds people's capacity to do it, and that maybe even

403
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Speaker 3: maybe capacity is not the right word, they're kind of

404
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Speaker 3: understanding of what it takes to do that work. So

405
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Speaker 3: I was interviewing a number of the rabbis in the area,

406
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Speaker 3: and these were not super political folks. These were not

407
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Speaker 3: people like from some activist synagogues wh were mainline synagogues,

408
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Speaker 3: but they connected with a number of faith leaders from

409
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Speaker 3: the historically black churches, both of which were saying, okay,

410
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Speaker 3: we're both going to be targeted here, and there's no

411
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Speaker 3: there's no institutions coming to help. Really, there's no one

412
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Speaker 3: we can count on here. So they created those collaborative

413
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Speaker 3: spaces and really pretty complicated and effective organizing models having

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Speaker 3: no experience doing it because of that hyper intense space,

415
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Speaker 3: which I think is in a way that's why those

416
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Speaker 3: circumstances have such an important effect on it. So how

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Speaker 3: did you basically plan those couple of weeks in advance?

418
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Speaker 3: How were you thinking about it, and what was the

419
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Speaker 3: kind of groups you were working with these like networks

420
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Speaker 3: that were coming together formal organizations.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there were a bunch of, you know,

422
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Speaker 5: organizations on the ground that I connected with. Certainly we

423
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Speaker 5: had a local chapter of Surge showing up for racial

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Speaker 5: justice and they were doing a lot of organizing. And

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Speaker 5: there was the Anarchist People of Color APOC. They were

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Speaker 5: a great group of people that we connected with and

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Speaker 5: that I connected with. And it also happened that I

428
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Speaker 5: started dating somebody who's also connected to the local anti

429
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Speaker 5: fascist scene at the time, so I sort of brought

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Speaker 5: into all of these circles through that relationship as well.

431
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Speaker 5: And so I think that sort of all of these

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Speaker 5: things combined really made it clear that we had a

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Speaker 5: small but very knowledgeable base of people that could organize.

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Speaker 5: And I think that one of the things that we

435
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Speaker 5: did exceptionally well in the lead up is because we

436
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 5: had such a small core of people who don't who

437
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 5: didn't really have, you know, a breadth of experience, you know,

438
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 5: in doing this, we were able to compartmentalize really well.

439
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 6: You know, some people were focusing on, you know, what.

440
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 5: Are we going to do with the you know, the

441
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 5: clergy collective, and how are they going to organize?

442
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 6: What is their action going to be?

443
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 5: And we had a media collective and that was where

444
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 5: I put most of my energy. And so I think

445
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 5: that we had these different groups of people that focus

446
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 5: on different things that helped us unblock ourselves from the grander,

447
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 5: sort of more theoretical, more abstract way to respond. We

448
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 5: didn't have the time to debate over tactics, we didn't

449
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 5: have time to debate over the ideology of anti fascism,

450
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 5: what the right thing to do was, or what the

451
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 5: best thing to do was. We really had to focus

452
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 5: our time on what do we have time to do?

453
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 5: What can we achieve given the constraints that we have

454
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 5: and with those sort of constraints, I think that maybe

455
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 5: we left some good actions on the table, but what

456
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 5: we came up with I think was fairly effective.

457
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 3: Do you think that it carried those community folks together

458
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: through and after the event. Do you feel like those

459
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 3: community ties were still there?

460
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 5: I think some of them are and some of them

461
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 5: are not. There are certainly community times that have broken.

462
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 5: There was a lot of pressure that built up. There

463
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 5: were differences of opinions that we set aside and hoped

464
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 5: to resolve afterwards, and those did not necessarily get resolved

465
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 5: in some cases, some interpersonal issues, some interorganizational issues. I

466
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 5: remember at one point there was a decision that was

467
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 5: being made, driven by a couple of the organizing groups,

468
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 5: that they would not support anyone that was going to

469
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 5: be armed, and this was a tension point between those

470
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 5: groups and groups like Redneck Revolt that were coming armed

471
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 5: to help support anti fascist rallies, and that like that

472
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 5: is something that still you know, affected me pretty well

473
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,239
Speaker 5: because I was being targeted because of how present I

474
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 5: was in social media and Twitter.

475
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 6: And things like that.

476
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 5: I needed to have an armed security detail, and you know,

477
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 5: that created a lot of a lot of tension I

478
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 5: didn't have legal like I had legal support pulled away

479
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 5: from me. I didn't have legal support until until November

480
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 5: of that year, when noise of a.

481
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 6: Lawsuit started happening.

482
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 5: So I think that some of those things did create

483
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 5: some tension that led to fracturing of community, but some

484
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 5: things actually really did tie the community back together and

485
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 5: kept it close even as we have drifted apart and

486
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 5: moved into different you know, different cities, different countries, different states, whatever.

487
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 6: I think it's a bit of both. You know.

488
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 3: There's one of the founding members of Rose Head Antifa

489
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 3: said something that kind of stuck with me, which is

490
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: that a lot of people will look to anti fascism

491
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: as a way to rebuild the left or as to

492
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: build this big mass united left. But that's not actually

493
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: what's being demanded of the situation. The situation is very

494
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 3: pretty straightforward, is to basically destroy this opposition of people.

495
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,959
Speaker 3: And how you do that. I mean, you can have

496
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: considerations about how they bring in the community and try

497
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 3: and align with other groups, but in the end, there's

498
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 3: other decisions are being made, and so people often get

499
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: disappointed when that ends up being what those projects actually are. Now, Daryl,

500
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: you were down there right right correct, that was there.

501
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: You're everywhere when we're there, I try to be.

502
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 7: I think one of the things about Charlottesville that was

503
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 7: really important is that we saw it coming, and we

504
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 7: had seen it coming months, probably even years before it

505
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 7: even happened. Hell, we saw it before in my case,

506
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 7: because one of those everywhere places I had been was

507
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 7: in York, Pennsylvania about twenty years prior, where you had

508
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 7: somebody from a group called the World Church Creator. He

509
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 7: was He was a local from World Church to the

510
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 7: Creator that invited the leader of that group, Matt Hale,

511
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 7: to hold the public meeting at that local library. It

512
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 7: was a tactic that that particular group had and what

513
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 7: that resulted in was about out three hundred neo Nazis

514
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 7: coming to York, PA, about three four hundred anti fascists

515
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 7: coming out to oppose them. And you pretty much saw

516
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 7: a parallel of Charlottesville. As I said, up to an

517
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 7: including a this was January twelve, twenty twelve, and up

518
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 7: to an including a someone driving into a group of

519
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 7: people and no one pat no one died, no one

520
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 7: was killed, hurt. Pretty bad. I think the only reason

521
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 7: why he served two years was because one of the

522
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 7: people that he hit was a cop. Now we fast

523
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 7: forward to Charlottesville, and ironically, I saw the person that

524
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 7: organized things in York represented Vanguard America at Charlottesville.

525
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: And.

526
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 7: Two days prior, we MI for One People's Project had

527
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 7: a little bit of a pot cast where we basically

528
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 7: said that after everything that was going on in Charlottevielle

529
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 7: prior to Charlottevield one point oh, Charlottesville two point zero,

530
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 7: and then this whole Unite the Right thing was happening,

531
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 7: where it was just making a big production out of

532
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 7: having this event. We pretty much were resigned to the

533
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 7: idea that this was going to be the so called

534
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 7: rights ultimate in the sense that this was going to

535
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 7: be what sent everybody, you know, realizing how bad things

536
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 7: can get. You know it's going to be bad. We

537
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 7: expected it to be bad. I went to Charlotteville armed,

538
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 7: and I think really it was one of the first

539
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 7: times that I ever did strap up when I went

540
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 7: to one of these things. When everything went down, I mean,

541
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 7: prior to everything going down, I was just basically, I think,

542
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 7: videotaping everyone cracking jokes. I was playing happy Warrior because

543
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 7: you know, you see this all before up to and

544
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 7: including the fighting. The fighting is there, I mean, that

545
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 7: happens all the time, even that massively, I'm used to it.

546
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 6: What I wasn't used to.

547
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 7: Was when someone was murdered, when someone was killed, because

548
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 7: that's never happened, and that that actually freaked me out.

549
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 7: It Actually I actually got really pissed off when that

550
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 7: went down, and I think a lot of us did

551
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 7: because because if we recognize this ourselves, if we who

552
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 7: have been on the front lines all these years recognized

553
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 7: that this was the direction that was going in, we

554
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 7: also recognized that we had the ability to do something

555
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 7: about it beforehand. That's one of the reasons why the

556
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 7: Aco you got into a lot of trouble because they

557
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 7: were busy trying to protect the free speech of everybody

558
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 7: in all the neo Nazis there and insisting that they

559
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 7: were going to be in that park because that's where

560
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 7: they wanted to be. And when everything went down, a

561
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 7: lot of people just looked at the ACO and said,

562
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 7: could you at least recognize just how dangerous they was

563
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 7: trying to make the situation ACOU I believe will no

564
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 7: longer represent groups that insist on holding armed rallies. I

565
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 7: think that was one of the things that they had

566
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 7: said that they were one of the changeups. And even

567
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 7: with the whole discussion about their freedom of speech and

568
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 7: saying it was a matter of the free speech, people's

569
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 7: attitudes were just like, Okay, fine, that's a given, But

570
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 7: couldn't you let them get their own attorneys? Why do

571
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 7: you have to keep defending the worst of society in

572
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 7: the name of a free speech that frankly doesn't seem

573
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 7: to be afforded the rest of us whenever we are

574
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 7: opposing them. That's the attitude that a lot of people had,

575
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 7: and it was really the last straw. Charlotteville was really

576
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 7: the last straw, and people really got on a different

577
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 7: footing and dealing with fascism. I was used to people

578
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 7: trying to pull all the stops and trying to defend

579
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 7: the quote unquote defend the freedom of speech of not

580
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 7: just the fascist in our society, but the right in general.

581
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 7: So every time I would criticize somebody on the right,

582
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 7: somebody would try to say things ranging from we have

583
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 7: to respect their freedom of speech or we should just

584
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 7: ignore them, you know. And I hated it whenever it

585
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 7: was and when it was combined the best way to

586
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 7: fight hate speeches with more speech. You use the more speech, Well,

587
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 7: why don't you just ignore them? That stopped after Charlottesville.

588
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 7: All of a sudden, people started saying, Okay, we need

589
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 7: to start doing something about this group. That's why you

590
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 7: saw forty thousand people in Boston protesting against the fascists

591
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 7: up there when they tried to hold a rally maybe

592
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 7: a week or two later. You know, that's why you

593
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 7: saw websites like the Daily Stormer get you know, yanked

594
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 7: out of yanked out of the mainstream, and now they're

595
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 7: sitting on the dark web. That's why you saw people

596
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 7: disowned their family members because they went to this rally.

597
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 7: We are seeing people being not just James Field's but

598
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 7: others being held legally accountable for what they did in Charlotteville.

599
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 7: And all of those individuals are fascists. All of the

600
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 7: individuals were white supremacists. We realized that we had the

601
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 7: ability to do something, and we started doing something. Unfortunately,

602
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 7: we stopped after Trump lost and people tried to go

603
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 7: back to that whole just ignore them routine, and within

604
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 7: months we got January sixth, and that was when they

605
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 7: tried they ratcheted up again about how we're going to

606
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 7: really curtail the right and all and all that we

607
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 7: but now that just became rhetoric. We're here again because

608
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 7: you're starting to see a lot of the rumblings with

609
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 7: the attacks on the trans community. Basically conservatives across the

610
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 7: country are primarily trying to essentially do something to the

611
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 7: rest of the country. I mean, you heard that when

612
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 7: you go to the SEAPAC meeting, the Conservative Political Action

613
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 7: Conference a couple of months ago. All they did was

614
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 7: talk about things they wanted to do to America.

615
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: You know.

616
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 7: And this is what we have been fighting all our lives.

617
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 7: This is what we have been warning about all our lives.

618
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 7: And while anti fascism has essentially become mainstream, there is

619
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 7: still a lot more work that we have to do

620
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 7: in order to basically see all that work bear fruit.

621
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 7: And that's some pretty much the deal.

622
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that forty thousand person kind of response to a

623
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: Proud Boy rally in Boston just a couple of weeks

624
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: after Unite the Right, it was one of the most

625
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: common sense kind of moments and it totally dwarfs into them.

626
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: I mean, forty thousand people will do it whatever they want,

627
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 3: right forty thousand people will stop any kind of small march,

628
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 3: even a large one, and so the lesson was learned

629
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: then it seemed to be forgotten immediately.

630
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 7: And they're perfect example of that because that group that

631
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 7: they were protesting went on to become Super Happy Fun America.

632
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 7: They're the group that are now pushing the straight Pride

633
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 7: rallies and they are really in the forefront of all

634
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 7: the anti trans anti LGBTQ plus activity, And of course

635
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 7: some of them got arrested in at January sixth, so

636
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 7: they pretty much built up their stock since then, but

637
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 7: so did we, and it's just a matter of using

638
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 7: that stock. Who's going to use that stock more effectively?

639
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was really interesting how you centered this,

640
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: like this shift that happened among people who went previously

641
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: involved in anti fascism, from this kind of near liberal

642
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: understanding or maybe even liberal understanding of the sort of

643
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: struggle against fascism being one that could take place in

644
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: the open, with free speech being the most important thing

645
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: that's at stake, and one that moved like in a

646
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: moment right when I Nazi killed Heather Higher.

647
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 7: Two.

648
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: There's a ton more at stake than we thought, and

649
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: I think you're right that we've gone back, like right,

650
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: we've gone back to the previous understanding, which I think

651
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: is what everyone kind of a lot of people, I

652
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: guess they felt like they could vote for Joe Biden

653
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: and then it was done, like it had disappeared. And

654
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: I'd be interested to hear all of your insights, with

655
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: all your experience in the movement and like what needs

656
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 1: to be done. I guess to keep that organizing going

657
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: as worrying this kind of nadir or thermidor of like

658
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: anti fascist organizing in the US.

659
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 4: If I could offer something from maybe a little bit

660
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 4: of a longer view, you yeah, you know, Darrell talked

661
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 4: about somebody being killed and that never happening before, but

662
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 4: of course it has happened before. And so nineteen seventy

663
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 4: nine there was a Death of the Clan rally in Greensboro,

664
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: North Carolina, and people were attacked and killed by an

665
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 4: alliance of the Clan and the Nazis with you know,

666
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 4: the ATF had people in one and the forget. I

667
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 4: think the FBI had people in the other and were

668
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: instrumental in bringing the two forces together to attack the

669
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 4: anti Clan group and several people were killed in that,

670
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 4: and then the same thing with aar in Las Vegas,

671
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 4: Lynn S Newborn, a black tattoo artist, and Darren Shirsey.

672
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 4: It was actually I think a sailor, active duty sailor

673
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: who were in anti racist action in Las Vegas were

674
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 4: executed and killed by neo Nazis there, And so I

675
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 4: think there is a history of that that we need

676
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 4: to be aware of, but also that that there's ups

677
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 4: and downs and lulls in both fascist organizing anti fascist organized.

678
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 4: One of the things that happened after the seventy nine

679
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 4: killings is that Ronald Reagan launched his campaign for president

680
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 4: in Philadelphia, Mississippi, the scene of the killing of shor

681
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 4: En er Chaineyan Goodman on a state freights platform. And

682
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 4: while he was president, you know, I brought in Pat

683
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 4: rob Pat Buchanan and you know, went to Bittberg. So

684
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 4: there's a long history of the state, you know, playing

685
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 4: foot seet with these people, and I think we should

686
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 4: recognize that, but also that there are going to be

687
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 4: ups and downs in in both fascists and anti fascist organizing,

688
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 4: and you know, just see that that. I think the

689
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 4: longer range perspective that is important to understand. The other

690
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 4: thing I did want to take a little exception to

691
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 4: is the idea that the role of anti fascist is

692
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 4: to destroy fascists, and I think that I don't completely

693
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 4: agree with that analysis. I think that it's critical that

694
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 4: actually anti fascists forced to see themselves as part of

695
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 4: a revolutionary transformation of the society and its entirety, and

696
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 4: that the ability to actually reach an organizing people has

697
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 4: to do with making it clear that fascists are not

698
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 4: providing an alternative to what's wrong with the society, although

699
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 4: they claim to be, and that we are, that we're

700
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 4: part of liberatory and you know, self determination elements, anti

701
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 4: colonial elements, you know, support for sovereignty of indigenous people,

702
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: you know, support for LGBTQ people's rights and all those

703
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 4: things that have a positive aspect of a way to

704
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 4: reorganize society in a different way than the fascists are

705
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 4: putting forward. And I think that that is critically trying

706
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 4: to sustain a base and build a base by you know,

707
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 4: having a positive you know, one of the things that

708
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 4: I've been doing for many years, I published Turning the Tide,

709
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 4: which you know, started as a little zine. We were

710
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 4: sending it to other chapters of Anti Racist Section and

711
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 4: also went to the prisons, and you know, eventually we

712
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 4: changed the subtitle of that to the Journal of Intercommunal Solidarity,

713
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: in the sense of saying, Okay, it's not just Anti

714
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 4: Racist Section, it's not just anti fashions, but what are

715
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 4: we ford? You have to have a positive if you

716
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 4: really want to organize people, you have to have a

717
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 4: positive sense of what they're struggling for, not just what

718
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 4: they're struggling against.

719
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, Michael's right, Greensboro did happen. I was really referring

720
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 7: to in recent time. It wasn't. It was the first

721
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 7: time for myself to be at a rally and not

722
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 7: see anyone and see somebody get murdered. But yes, Greensboro,

723
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 7: November third, I believe, nineteen seventy nine in North Carolina,

724
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 7: that happened, and all the clan members had actually gotten

725
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 7: away with it. They did not. They were found. They

726
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 7: cleared them. Meanwhile, recruiting state court and federal court both.

727
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 7: Their claim was that they were not They were brought

728
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 7: up in civil rights judges in the federal court and

729
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 7: they claim they weren't against black people. They were just

730
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 7: again communists, and that right, there was something that even

731
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 7: family members when I first heard of Remember, I'm a

732
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 7: kid at this time. I'm sitting there listening to family

733
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 7: members basically laugh about the situation because all they saw

734
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 7: were clan and communists and they were just had the

735
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 7: attitude of just let them kill each other. And that

736
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,959
Speaker 7: was actually a line that was said, don't. I don't

737
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 7: know which family members said it, but that was a

738
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 7: line that stuck with me since I was a kid

739
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 7: and at the time I wasn't really politically a student.

740
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 7: I just that's how I recalled that situation, and with

741
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 7: Dan and Spit the Las Vegas murders that that is

742
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 7: a different situation, however, because that wasn't the rally they

743
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 7: sought them out. That was basically on the off time,

744
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,959
Speaker 7: so to speak. Yes, and we've seen that before, most

745
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 7: certainly Luke Cerner from Portland, for example. I mean, he said,

746
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 7: but he's a quadriplegic because somebody came after him.

747
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 5: The German police intercepted one. When Adam often came to Germany,

748
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 5: they tried to get me. I don't know if you

749
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 5: know about.

750
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 4: I think because I have been fairly public, I've been

751
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 4: docked and tracked down by fascists and several different occasions

752
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,959
Speaker 4: in different places that I lived in. You know, we've

753
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 4: had armed patrols that you know, at various points that

754
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 4: you know. It's clearly you know they do try to

755
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 4: target people as well as you know, attacking mess action.

756
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: Emily, you've gotten it as much as anyone I've ever

757
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 3: seen in terms of dosing and harassment and targeted attacks

758
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 3: and threats like that.

759
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 5: Who are you referring to? I think you Oh, I

760
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 5: think we've all gotten it bad.

761
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't think that there's any there's no competition.

762
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: Here contest who has the most death threats on.

763
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 5: I did want to just jump back real quick to

764
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 5: the thing that you were mentioning Michael about. You know,

765
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 5: building anti fascism needs to be about building, and I

766
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 5: think that there's two there's two sides to this. I

767
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 5: like to talk about, like the breaking work, which is

768
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 5: what a lot of the street anti fascism is about, right, Like,

769
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 5: sometimes Nazis come marching into your town and you have

770
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 5: to break that. You have to stop that, you have

771
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 5: to confront that, and you have to do things to

772
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 5: make it so that they don't want to come back

773
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 5: into your town or any other towns like your town,

774
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 5: and I think that that's breaking work, you know, the

775
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 5: work of cracking down Nazis, docsing them, exposing them, whatever,

776
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 5: that's breaking work. I think that in the last few

777
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 5: years has become more high profile for various reasons. But

778
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 5: I think that as we're looking at you know what

779
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 5: you were mentioning therel like the anti trans legislation, the

780
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 5: rise of the political far right in government in power,

781
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 5: we do need a different solution. I'm not saying that

782
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 5: you can't go out and like intercept Ron DeSantis's motorcade

783
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 5: and like punch him in the face. I am saying

784
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 5: it will probably end very badly for you if you

785
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 5: try to.

786
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 6: Do that, right, right, So maybe what.

787
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 5: We actually also need is to try to build those

788
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 5: alternative structures that are not reliant on the state right.

789
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 6: You know, when we see these these.

790
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 5: Trans bands coming in like it's a horrible thing. But

791
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 5: the only thing that actually comes through my mind is

792
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 5: we have more tools, more resources now to create the

793
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 5: networks of support than we've ever had in history. A

794
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 5: lot of our energy should be pouring into supporting those networks,

795
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 5: supporting that that care supporting that mobility and that freedom

796
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 5: of movement rather than just trying to run up against

797
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 5: this brick wall that is this Republican you know behemoth

798
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 5: that is moving you know forward into into all of

799
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 5: our rights. Like we're not going to face it down

800
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 5: head on. We need to go around it in some way.

801
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 5: And I think that that going around it is going

802
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 5: to require that building, that community, that sort of redevelopment

803
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 5: of those alternative structures. So I think it's so important

804
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 5: to have that as well.

805
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: Big thanks to Shane Burley for setting up this conversation.

806
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: The second half of our talk with Michael Novic, Emily Gorcinski,

807
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: and Daryl Lamont Jenkins will be coming out tomorrow. We'll

808
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: talk a bit more about the modern state of anti

809
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: fascism and what things from the past might help inform

810
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: us in the anti fascist struggle of today. See you

811
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: on the other side. It could happen here as a

812
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool

813
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or

814
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

815
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for

816
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 2: It could happen here, updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot com,

817
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 2: Slash sources, Thanks for listening.