1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: Hey guys, got some breaking news for you. So the 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Special Council who was investigating Joe Biden over his handling 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: or mishandling of classified documents has returned his report. And 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: there's a piece of this that is not shocking. They 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: are filing no charges, but there is another piece of 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: this which is really wild, which the reason, part of 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: the reason he gives for not charging Joe Biden is 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: effectively that he says he is too feeble minded for 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: a jury to find him guilty at this point. Let 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: me just break this down for you everything we know 11 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: at this point, because it really is a very wild development. 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: So this is from the Washington Post headline, special Council 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: no charges for Biden and classified documents probe evidence of 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: wilful mishandling of classified papers, but not enough to win 15 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: a conviction. According to the Special Council, or read to 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: you from the Washington Post. They so Joe Biden carelessly 17 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: handled classified materials found at his home and former office 18 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: after his vice presidency and shared government secrets with his ghostwriter, 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: but that evidence was not strong enough to justify charging 20 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: him with crimes. According to a long awaited Special Council 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: report released Thursday. The three hundred and forty five page 22 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: Justice Department finding ends an investigation that has hung over 23 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: the president's head for more than a year. The report 24 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: could prove to be a political liability, however, because it 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: describes President Biden eighty one as a forgetful old man 26 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: who kept notebooks and documents with classified information at home, 27 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: a stinging characterization that will likely be used against him 28 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: by Republicans. I think anyone who has seen him recently 29 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: might think twice about their desire to have him in 30 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: the White House again, based not only on that but 31 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: on his recent actions. Biden, in a written statement, defended 32 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: himself as someone who has always taken seriously the protection 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: of national security secrets. I cooperated completely throughout no roadblocks 34 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: and sought no delays. In fact, I was so determined 35 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: to give the Special Counsel what they needed that I 36 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: went forward with five hours of in person interviews over 37 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: two days. Amid the US government response to an international crisis, 38 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: Biden said, referring to the hamas October seventh attack on 39 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: is I just believe that's what I owed the American 40 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: people so they could know no charges would be brought 41 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: and the matter closed. Special Counsel Robert Hurr, who interviewed 42 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: the President the White House himself, found evidence that Biden 43 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 1: wilfully retained and disclosed classified materials after his vice presidency 44 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: when he was a private citizen, but concluded that evidence 45 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: does not establish mister Biden's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Also, 46 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: hers team said prosecuting Biden would be quote unwarranted based 47 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: on our consideration of the aggravating and mitigating factors laid 48 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: out in Justice Department prosecution policies. To secure a conviction, 49 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: officials would need to prove to a jury that Biden 50 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: retained the information wilfully. They go on to say that 51 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: would be an obstacle because the jury would likely find 52 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Biden to be a sympathetic figure and a quote well 53 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: meaning elderly man with a poor memory. The president of 54 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: the United States, That's who we're talking about here. Prosecutors 55 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: also suggested might not have struck Biden as noteworthy that 56 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: he was in possession of classified documents so soon after 57 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: his time as vice president had ended. As if that 58 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: is not bad enough, let me go ahead and pull 59 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: up for you some of the specific parts of this 60 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: report that mention the memory lapses that Biden apparently suffered 61 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: from during this interview. This is from Bronco Marcicic, who 62 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: read through the report and pulled out some of the 63 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: critical pieces that showed Biden's quote diminished faculties and faulty memory, 64 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: according to the report, in both interview recordings with his 65 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: ghostwriter and when they interviewed him, during which the report says, 66 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: he had gotten worse. He could not remember when he 67 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: was vice president, and he couldn't remember within several years 68 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: of when his son had died. You read you these 69 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: sections from the report. Here's one piece he says. In addition, 70 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: mister Biden's memory was significantly limited during both his recorded 71 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: interviews with the ghostwriter in twenty seventeen and in his 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: interview with our office in twenty twenty three, and his 73 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: cooperation with our investigation, including by reporting to the government 74 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: that the Afghanistan documents were in his Delaware garage, will 75 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: likely convince some jurors that he made an innocent mistake 76 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: rather than acting wilfully, that is, with intent to break 77 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: the law, as a statute requires. Here's another piece. Mister 78 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: Biden's memory also appeared to have significant limitations both at 79 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: the time he spoke to Zwanitzer in twenty seventeen, as 80 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: evidence by their recorded conversations, and today as evidence by 81 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: his recorded interview with our Office, mister Biden's recorded conversations 82 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: was Wantitzer from twenty seventeen are often painfully slow, with 83 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: mister Biden struggling to remember events and straining at times 84 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: to read and relay his own notebook entries. That's from 85 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. That was some years ago, and they said 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: that his memory had gotten worse. In his interview with 87 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: our office, mister Maiden's memory was worse. He did not 88 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first 89 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: day of the interview when his term ended, quote if 90 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: it was twenty thirteen, when did I stop being vice president? 91 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: And forgetting on the second day of the interview when 92 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: his term began in two thousand and nine, am I 93 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: still vice president? He did not remember even but within 94 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: several years when his son Bo died, and his memory 95 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: appeared hazy. When describing the Afghanistan debate that was once 96 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: so important to him, among other things, he mistakenly said 97 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: he had a real difference of opinion with General Carl 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: Eichenberry went in fact, Iickenberry was an ally whom mister 99 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: Biden sidon approvingly in his thanksgiving memo to President Obama. 100 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: Last piece here they say, given the intelligence and military 101 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: officials President the tapists discussed, mister Biden should realize the 102 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: notes did or likely to contain classified information, but take 103 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: as in a hole. The evidence will likely leave jurors 104 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: with reasonable doubts about whether mister Biden knew he was 105 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: sharing classified information with Swannitzer, that's his ghostwriter, and intended 106 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: to do so. For these jurors, mister Biden's apparent lapses 107 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: and failures in February and April will likely appear consistent 108 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: with the diminished faculties and faulty memory he showed in 109 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: Swantzer's interview recordings and in our interview of him. Therefore, 110 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: we conclude that the evidence does not establish that mister 111 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: Biden will flay disclosed national defense information to Swantzer. So 112 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: absolutely stunning that in this report special counsel from within 113 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: Biden's own DOJ they are saying they did not charge 114 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: him in part because he was too old and feeble 115 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: minded to really know what he was doing. Was unable 116 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: to cite even with several years when his own son 117 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: Bo died. Biden team out blasting the report, saying, we're 118 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: glad you didn't charge us, but this was inappropriate. They 119 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 1: don't say what was inappropriate, but we can all guess 120 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: what part they object to here. Biden legal team blast 121 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: special counsel's inappropriate report, saying that they were trashing the president. 122 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: President Biden's legal team on Thursday blasted parts of a 123 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: report by Special Counsel Robert Her accusing him of investigative 124 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: excess that resulted in trashing the subject of an investigation. 125 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: Bob Bauer, Biden's personal counsel, said in a statement shortly 126 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: after the report's release, that the public's findings violate well 127 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: established Apartment norms, that it was essentially trashing the subject. 128 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: Quote the Department of Justice Inspector General observed only a 129 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: few years ago that high profile investigations such as those 130 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: of a president may be subject to scrutiny not typical 131 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: of the average criminal case, but that does not provide 132 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: a basis for violating well established department norms and essentially 133 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: trashing the subject of an investigation with extraneous, unfounded, and 134 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: irrelevant critical commentary. The Special Council could not refrain from 135 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: investigative excess, perhaps unsurprised in giving the intense pressures of 136 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: the current political environment. Whatever the impact of those pressures 137 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: on the final report, it flouts department regulations and norms. 138 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: White House also pushed back, calling parts of the report 139 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: inappropriate and inaccurate. We disagree with the number of inaccurate 140 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: inappropriate comments in the report. Nonetheless, the most important decision 141 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: that no charges are warranted is firmly based on the 142 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: facts and evidence. Again, they did not mention which part 143 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: was inappropriate, but we are presuming it's the part describing 144 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: Biden as a quote sympathetic, well meaning elderly man with 145 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: a poor memory and conveying that Biden's memory had significant limitations. 146 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: Guesses that that is the part of the report they 147 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: find to be inappropriate and are objecting to. I don't 148 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: know what to tell you, guys. It is absolutely wild 149 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: that this is where we're at, that these are the 150 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: two candidates that we're faced with, that the Democratic Party 151 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: shut down any and all possibility of having a democratic 152 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: choice in the primary. You know, they claim to believe 153 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: this election to be existential. They claim to believe democracy 154 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: is on the line, and yet here we are with 155 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: a man who, by his own Justice departments accounting, is 156 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: too feeble minded to even remember the basics of when 157 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: he was vice president and when his own son died, 158 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: or the basic contours of debates. Of course, this comes 159 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: amid a rash of reports about and not just reports 160 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: but video that we can all watch, of how much 161 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: he is struggling on a daily basis to recount basic facts, stories, figures, 162 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: faces from his life. We now have two incidents within 163 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: a week's time of him telling a story about some 164 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: world leader and him naming two different world leaders who 165 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: have been dead for years. We had another incident where 166 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: he was attempting to update us on a hamas response 167 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: to a ceasefire proposal, where he painfully struggled to recall 168 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: the word hamas had to be sort of prompted by 169 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: someone who was nearby. These lapses are common, but they're 170 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: becoming more and more and more regular. His team also 171 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: and he also recently deciding not to do a Super 172 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: Bowl interview sit down. This is the second year that 173 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: they've decided to do that, but this year it would 174 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: have been with a relatively friendly news outlet, And of 175 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: course passing up on the chance to get himself in 176 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: front of millions and millions of voters at a time 177 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: when he trails often in the polls to Donald Trump. 178 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: So voters say overwhelmingly his age and ability is a top, 179 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: top concern for them, and needless to say, this report 180 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: will do absolutely nothing to alleviate their concerns. 181 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: All right, Welcome to a special issue of breaking points. 182 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: Pakistani voters went to the polls across the country today 183 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: and I am kind of new to handling the different 184 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: devices on this riverside live thing. So what am we 185 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 2: gonna do. I'm gonna turn it over to you Murtaza Hussein, 186 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: my colleague over at the Intercept, first to give us 187 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 2: a little bit of background. We're also going to be 188 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 2: joined by w Coast akhmatters of Pakistani journalists to talk 189 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 2: about the absolutely shocking election results so far. And then 190 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: and then I'm going to play a little bit of 191 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: videos that we've picked up from social media and also 192 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: from my questioning of the State Department earlier today. So 193 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: Maz kind of catch us up what's going on so far. 194 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: So for the past couple of months, the Pakistani military, 195 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 3: beyond that, even the Pakistani military has been working to 196 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: effectively rig. 197 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 4: The Pakistani elections. 198 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: Of course, the INTERSEP we've done some reporting showing how 199 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: the US was involved in deposing Imran Khan. By polls 200 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 3: show the most popular prime minister in pax On, the 201 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 3: most popular politician pox On, the former prime minister, and mister. 202 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 4: Khan, you know, has been banned from the elections. 203 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: His party has been more or less dismantled or mid 204 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: efforts they dismantled them by the military. And yet it 205 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: seems that despite all these massive roadblocks and impediments put 206 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: in their way, the Pakistani Tarikians Office is called, looks 207 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 3: set to win the elections, according to early polling results, 208 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: and not just win the elections, but decisively win the elections. 209 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: So I think it's quite a resounding sort of message 210 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: to the military that despite their attempts to suppress mister 211 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: Khan's party, suppressed him personally, he's currently in jail, the 212 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 3: people of Pakistan clearly have evident strong favorability towards him 213 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 3: and his party, and whatever efforts they've undertaken to block 214 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: his electoral chances or even Impune's credibility and reputation, they 215 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,239 Speaker 3: have not seemed to resonate with the people of Pakistan 216 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: as we're seeing tonight with these results. 217 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the most blatant thing they've done, I guess 218 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: has been you know, abduct abducting candidates to prevent them 219 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: from even running and then also knocking down mobile service 220 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: in the and in the Internet leading up to the election. 221 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: But they also not only jailed the leading candidate, I 222 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: Ron Khan, but effectively, like you said, dismantled his party. 223 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: And so as we talk about these results, we're going 224 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: to be talking about independents who are backed by the 225 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 2: PTI rather than PTI candidates will costs. Why why is that? 226 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 5: Well, uh PTI has been actually banned from running as 227 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 5: a party, so this PTI candidates cannot run as members 228 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 5: of PTI and they're supposed to run as independents. So 229 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 5: what we're now seeing, like results are we're saying seeing 230 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 5: the effects of that. What was intended initially. They wanted 231 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 5: PTI to be off the ballot so that when results 232 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 5: start coming in we do not see PTI victory decisively, 233 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 5: we stay confused about which candidates are actually winning because 234 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 5: because now they have independent in front of their name 235 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 5: instead of PTI. So I'm looking at results like, out 236 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 5: of four hundred eighty three that have currently come in, 237 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 5: two hundred and eighty three are independents. 238 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 6: We don't know if they're PTA, they're most likely PTSD. 239 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 5: So overwhelmingly these independent candidates are winning. But one way 240 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 5: to look at it is by giving votes to these 241 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 5: independent candidates overwhelmingly against all other parties that were favored 242 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 5: by the military. People have actually rejected those parties and 243 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 5: actually favored independence, which are basically members of PTI. 244 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 2: All right, that's that's important context for the question that 245 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 2: I had at the State Apartment today for v Dant Patel. 246 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: So I'm gonna I'm going to pull this up and 247 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: then we can talk about what his answer, what does 248 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 2: answer means? So here here this goes. 249 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, good question. The plimary results have iron cons party, 250 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 7: I think at this point, with leading in one hundred 251 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 7: and thirty six districts three times the next closest one. 252 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 7: We're now seeing reports in Pakistana. There's separate things. One 253 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 7: the army is in the streets, the police are in 254 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 7: the streets, are surrounding polling stations, and you're seeing a 255 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 7: lot of reports and videos effort to change the election 256 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 7: officials out a lot of concern that at number one 257 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 7: hundred and thirty six by tomorrow morning in Pakistan be 258 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 7: pushed down lower. Separately, you're seeing also the surface in 259 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 7: Pakistan attempt to kind of military connective officials to take 260 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 7: the independence you are associated with PTI and treasure them 261 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 7: to join other parties. So even though in one content 262 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 7: party might win a majority after torture and Briberry, you 263 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 7: could have a different government take powers when the putting 264 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 7: stood up for free and fair elections, but pree entire 265 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 7: electing the one thing. But if you culture way to 266 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 7: the majority after that, that doesn't that doesn't quite live 267 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 7: up to kind of the values that were This seems 268 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 7: like a pretty simbable moment in America. And the. 269 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 8: Thing about preliminary results that they are preliminary, and I 270 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 8: am not going to get ahead of any visual results. 271 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 8: We're not going to comment or speculate further on what 272 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 8: government like makeup could be or anything like that you 273 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 8: would be. What I will just reiterate again is that 274 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 8: we condemn all instances of election related violence, some of 275 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 8: the kinds that you were describing that took place in 276 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 8: the weeks preceding the election, as well as on election day. 277 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 4: We also believe that these. 278 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 8: Kinds of actions have affected a number of political parties 279 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 8: across Pakistan. And we're also concerned about the steps that 280 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 8: we're taking to restrict freedom of expression, specifically around internet 281 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 8: and cell phone use. But again, I'm just not gonna 282 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 8: it's real quick speculate on results or government maker lets. 283 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 7: But let's say the pact, many people do elect a 284 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 7: majority of independence associated with the PTI, But then after 285 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 7: a bunch of back room negotiations which are accompanied by 286 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 7: reports of torture, all of a sudden, there's another candidate 287 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 7: that has a majority. 288 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 4: Would that be okay with the. 289 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 8: I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna hypothesize 290 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 8: on a made up situation that you're just describing right now. 291 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 8: We will at some point, I have no doubt that 292 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 8: the United States of America will comment on the election 293 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 8: official election results when they happen. But till then, we 294 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 8: will defer to the electoral process we believe we take 295 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 8: very seriously. 296 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: All Right, we'll coss. What what was your reaction to 297 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: to that answer? 298 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 5: Uh, this is honestly disgusting At this point, because what 299 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 5: we have to take intoto account what has happened on 300 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 5: the Groundian podcast on they have died the legs and 301 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 5: arms of one polt ticular party. And he just said 302 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 5: that it has happened to a number of political parties, 303 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 5: name too, that there's no other party that this has 304 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 5: happened to them. It has only happened to one political party. 305 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 5: And they have tied their arms and legs of this 306 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 5: political party. They have put people in jail, thousands of people, 307 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 5: including the leaders. 308 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 6: They have banned this party. 309 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 5: Yet today we see this party winning in absolute like 310 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 5: crazy numbers. 311 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 6: And this is something inspirational. 312 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 5: It is like it is about the indefeatableness of the 313 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 5: human spirit. It's something like that. It's something epic that 314 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 5: has happened to Pakistan. And then to steal this from 315 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 5: Pakistani people who have resisted the military huntaw for so long, 316 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 5: and who have fought so bravely and so amazingly using 317 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 5: democracy and no violance, nothing at all, and now they 318 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 5: have voted the people that they have chosen and this 319 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 5: mandate is about to be stolen from them. And all 320 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 5: of these people who have stayed quite for two years 321 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 5: and who have condoned this avoidance that has happened, and 322 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 5: good pibout Christy. They will continue to do so. It 323 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 5: will honestly be so disgusting to watch. 324 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, Mars, what was your reaction when you saw the 325 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 2: same What do you think what should we draw from that? 326 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: Well, he's clearly not very happy with your consistent questioning 327 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 3: of him at these at these uh at these conferences. 328 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: But I think it's interesting to draw a jextaposition between 329 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 3: his response and the way they responding countries where they're 330 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: similar or even less egregious or you know, vote brigging. 331 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 3: It takes place beforehand, and the US Department, in the State 332 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 3: Department is quite vocal about it. They're quite you know, 333 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: enthusiastic and condemning those cases. He's so you know, cautious 334 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: in this case about saying that at the end. If 335 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 3: you notice, he'sn'tven say that we take the results there 336 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 3: the election process is legitimately since we take it seriously, 337 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 3: it's impossible to. 338 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 4: Say anything otherwise at this point. 339 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 3: So I think, you know, unfortunately a lot of people 340 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: in talkistan this what class was saying, you know, they 341 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 3: do very strongly believe in the Marxis but all these 342 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 3: roadblocks putting their way, and they're counting on because of 343 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 3: the role that the US plays in Pakistan, is the 344 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: facto part of the ruling compact in some way, the 345 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 3: influence it has, and given the US's vocal support of 346 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 3: the oxy vocally, they expect some sort of consistency and 347 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: some sort of reliability from the US government. Fortunately expect 348 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 3: that it doesn't see be forthcoming. So I think that 349 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: if it were to come to pass, that even after 350 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 3: is very significant and I think shocking in many ways 351 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 3: election result to come out this way despite all these roadblocks. 352 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 3: If the US government sits quietly or even endorses an 353 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: outcome which is clearly unfair and clearly unjust for the 354 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: perspective of Circon supporters, I think you'll see a great dissolution. 355 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: You see that the US ability to speak the other 356 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: contexts as well. 357 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 2: And related to the State Department. I wanted to quickly 358 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 2: share this New York Times article that was updated just 359 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: maybe ten twenty minutes ago. It says here as a result, 360 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: This is from the New York Times. The coverage of 361 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: the elections. The results began to trickle in Thursday evening. 362 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: The Party of former Prime Minister Nahuaz Sharif, the military's 363 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: preferred party of the moment, was still expected to win, 364 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: but it not looked but it did not look like 365 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: it would pull off the easy victory that was widely predicted. 366 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 2: So to describe this earlier, I think it described them 367 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: as neck and neck. But this it's been updated even 368 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 2: since then, So they took out the kind of neck 369 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: and neck verbiage, but they left in was still expected 370 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: to win, which to me is such a striking phrase 371 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: because they might actually be correct, Like from the perspective 372 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: of the State Department in the New York Times, regardless 373 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: of the fact that the that the votes and we 374 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: can put the the votes are so heavily in favor 375 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: of the PTI at this point, the New York Times 376 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: and the State Department may still expect Nahuas Sharif to win. 377 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 2: So cost setting aside who got more votes, what would 378 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: you say about who's expected to win at this point? 379 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 6: Well, Independent is not a party. 380 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 5: If Independent was a party in Pakistan, it would be 381 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 5: the biggest party in Pakistan's history right now the way 382 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 5: independents have won so technically and all of the things 383 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 5: that State Department says, and like the Pakistani government says, 384 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 5: is technically true. Technically pml EN might be the biggest party, 385 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 5: but Independence will they still have more independence than them, 386 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 5: So they'll have to get all these independence on board, 387 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 5: and that will usually happen with militaries. 388 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 6: Coachion, thefts, bribery and all of that. 389 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 5: So State Department will be able to continue will they 390 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 5: will be continued to be able to say that technically 391 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 5: pml and emerged as the biggest party. New York Times 392 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 5: would like truthfully say that pml N is the largest party. 393 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 5: But the context of that is that PTI has been banned, 394 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 5: all of the PTI members are independents, and Independence has won. 395 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: So how would they How would Independence actually go about 396 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 2: forming a party? I assume they'd have to find a 397 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: kind of rump faction of a party that they could 398 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 2: then all join with. What is the PTI strategy? Assuming 399 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: let's pretend that they can get through the the overnight 400 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: sin anagins and the torture and everything that we're going 401 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: to see over the over the coming days, and they 402 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: do emerge with a certified majority, Like, how do they 403 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: enact that majority in the parliament without having a party 404 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: like what who do they align. 405 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 5: With when they can form their own party, or they 406 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 5: can they can basically form a forward block within the 407 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 5: PTA or this decision, the core decision that actually banned 408 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 5: PTA is is in the process of being appealed. And 409 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 5: if in appeal it goes and then PTI gets its symbol, 410 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 5: BAG gets its party back, then bt might be able 411 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 5: to form a party in the parliament if nobody is 412 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 5: able to get to them. That means that they might 413 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 5: be able to vote for their own prime minister, and 414 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 5: they might be able to vote for their own cabinet. 415 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 5: And if that happens, BTF would it's really possible that 416 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 5: they can have a party. So they're still in the 417 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 5: game despite everything that has happened. And the major upset 418 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 5: in this today's election was that PMLN did not win 419 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 5: a clear majority and they would not be able to 420 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 5: form a government. And now Pakistani Parliament is in any case, 421 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 5: no matter what. 422 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 6: Happens, it will be harmed. 423 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: When I'm playing here with this footage of police officials 424 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 2: who are kind of surrounding a following location, you're seeing 425 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 2: tons of this from everywhere around the country. I can 426 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: try to share a little bit more more of it. Oh, 427 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: there we go. Say, I told you I'm not very 428 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: good at doing this. Let me try again. Let me 429 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 2: pull up a different one. Here's so, if you go 430 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: to my Twitter feed, you go to uh, if you 431 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 2: go to what Causes or Fred's w O r k s, 432 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: you'll find you'll find these videos everywhere. But it looks 433 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: like it looks to be one of the most attempts 434 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: to steal an election, you know, documented on social media. 435 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: Here's here's somebody who's just been who's kind. 436 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 4: Of been captured. 437 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: Videos of ballot boxes getting stuffed. You have, you have 438 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: ballots on fire, you have military figures throwing boxes into 439 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: jeeps and right you know, riding off of them. Uh maz. 440 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: Do you think that. 441 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: It's Do you think the hill is too steep for 442 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: the military to climb here to flip this election or 443 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: do you think that nothing is kind of out of 444 00:24:58,600 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: reach here? 445 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 3: Well, the thing is they went to such extraordinary steps 446 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: before the election to rig it with the internet shutdowns. 447 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 4: You're a great article on the Intercept about it. 448 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: Actually, all the ways that they've gone above and beyond 449 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: to try to fix this election beforehand, not least what 450 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 3: they did with in ron Khan yourself as well too, 451 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: So you know, after the vote, now having that having 452 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 3: strategy having failed so visibly, so hugely in no way, 453 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: now there's almost these very comically extreme, the most ceiling 454 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: votes stopping balls, much of it capturing video. I think 455 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 3: that the subtext of all this is that Cox and 456 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: military has been cut flat footed by the way that 457 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 3: ordinary people have been empowered by social mediament sense because 458 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 3: obviously PTI US social media very extensively in ron Khan 459 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 3: used extensively, and now you know, they have these sort 460 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: of very unsubtle forms of manipulation of ballots, but people 461 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 3: can record them and share them. So when everyone's seeing 462 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 3: what's happening, it's all documented. It's not very effective anymore 463 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 3: kind of you know, implies more or shows more what's 464 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 3: going on. So I think what may happen is that, 465 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: you know, they still have all the guns in Pakistan, 466 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 3: you still have all the institutional power. They may still 467 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 3: be able to rig the vote in some other way 468 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 3: by forcing you know, people to change parties, you know, 469 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: various different ways of applying coersion to do that. But 470 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 3: I think what's going to happen that is if they're 471 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 3: still you know, engineer and results at the game what 472 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: they like. They're going to have such a crisis of 473 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 3: credibility and lack of public consent because of all Pakistan's 474 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 3: to compare democratic shortcomings, you need some critical mass of 475 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 3: people who at least buy that this is a legitimate government. 476 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 3: And if you don't have that, in the military's case, 477 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 3: it would be very difficult to govern over a long time. 478 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 3: So I think what could happen in the long terms. 479 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: You could see a return to the military rule in Pakistan, 480 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 3: which just happened many times in the past. There could 481 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: be consequences potentially in terms of sanctions from the US 482 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 3: and the international bodies. But you know, if the Pakistani 483 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: military sees it between a choice of losing power entirely 484 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 3: or becoming a prior and ruling directly, may choose a. 485 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 2: Lot and will cause. I have to agree with you 486 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: that watching people turn out in such force in the 487 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 2: face of such repression was nothing short of inspiring. It 488 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 2: It became totally clear that the Pakistani people had immensely 489 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: more faith in democracy, uh than for instance, the State Department. 490 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: You know, the the United States has been practicing democracy 491 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: for more than two hundred years and what was kind 492 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 2: of shown I think by the Pakistani people what democracy 493 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 2: actually means. And they went out knowing that there would 494 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: be all of these you know, different elements of repression. 495 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: Uh too too numerous and too absurd to even to 496 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: even get into. So as as you are, as you're 497 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 2: watching these results come in, where where would you suggest 498 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: that people go to be able to follow this because 499 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: I know that people are getting really interested in this, 500 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: in this incredible story of of resilience by the Pakistani people, 501 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: But it's very defined anywhere where you can actually kind 502 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: of follow it in a reliable way, So like where 503 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: do you go for your news? And where should English 504 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: English speaking and reading audiences go where they can where 505 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 2: they can follow it. 506 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 5: Well, it's mostly on x dot com, Twitter, everything is there. 507 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 5: Pakistani media isn't that reliable, but there are some websites 508 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 5: that are collecting data. So the data that has come 509 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 5: in so far has been somewhat reliable because they're coming 510 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 5: directly though that data is coming directly from polling station. 511 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 6: So if you go to Twitter, then there are some well. 512 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 5: PTI account itself is a very good resource to follow 513 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 5: about all the videos that are coming in because they 514 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 5: have a huge network, so if you follow PTA official, 515 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 5: you'll see all the videos that they have been collecting 516 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 5: about rigging attempts and successful rigging attempts. You'd get to 517 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 5: see those. And then there's a journalist, i Ran Yashan. 518 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 5: I've recently heard he was kidnapped for five six months. 519 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 5: I think by the military. He was kept there. But 520 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 5: if you searched Imran yas Hahn's name again, you'll see 521 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 5: that he's still he's active again and I've heard that 522 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 5: they probably might attempt to kidnap him again. 523 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: So like journalists, courage fans who yeah he went through, 524 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah he was. 525 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 5: He was in custody for eight months. Yeah he was tortured. 526 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 5: He was alone, there was he wasn't in police custody. 527 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 5: Nobody knew where he was. So when he came out, 528 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 5: he was quiet. He couldn't even speak properly. He was 529 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 5: touttering for a month. And now he's able to write 530 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 5: about things. So he's saying things again and he might 531 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 5: be picked up. But this is the problem with following 532 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 5: credible like famous people in Pakistan because they get picked up. 533 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 5: So you have to rely on anonymous accounts and you 534 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 5: basically have to do your own fact checking. You have 535 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 5: to collate your own data and see if it's correct 536 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 5: or not. It's like very few resources available in bis not. 537 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 5: But if you go to Twitter, you get you get 538 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 5: some idea of what's happening. 539 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess last point I don't want to 540 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: make uh is you know, thank everyone the editors, uh, 541 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 2: fact checkers, producers over at the Intercept that helped us 542 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 2: do the reporting on on the on the cable that 543 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: you were talking about earlier Wi Coast. And there's no 544 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: guarantee that this is that this is going going to 545 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: hold but at some point I don't I don't think 546 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 2: that the generals are going to be able to hold 547 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: back this tide. But this would be you know, the 548 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: second kind of reverse regime change operations, so to speak, 549 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 2: that the Intercept would have been involved in recent years. 550 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: And you know, our colleagues down at the Intercept Brazil 551 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: exposed corruption that had led to the jailing of Lula 552 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: de Silva down in Brazil. He was freed from office 553 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 2: and the Brazilian people restored him to the presidency. You know, 554 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: we're in the middle of an epic moment here, but 555 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: we don't know where it ends. But it's certainly something 556 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: that I think the Pakistani people should be should be 557 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 2: proud of. Any any last words from from either of 558 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 2: you that you wanted to you want to add. 559 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, I can add something America and American government says 560 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 5: it values democracy and it backs democracy all over the world. 561 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 5: We have clearly seen what Pakistani people want, what the 562 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 5: democratic aspirations of Pakistani people are. To continue to deny 563 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 5: them is the United States and Biden administration would be 564 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 5: thinking in a very short term to do that, because 565 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 5: if they continue to deny these people their democratic aspiration, 566 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 5: you're turning a whole generations of Pakistanis into anti American people, 567 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 5: and that is not really that doesn't really work for 568 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 5: the American government. Pakistan is a big, major country, and eventually, 569 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 5: if you can deny them, they're right for now, for 570 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 5: one month, for one year, for five years, but eventually 571 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 5: people will get what they're aspiring for. And when they 572 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 5: do that, you don't want Pakistan to be like a 573 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 5: second Iran where the revolution brings in a government that 574 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 5: is completely anti American. So it is so important to 575 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 5: engage with these people. Their aspiration is not invalid, and 576 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 5: it's so important to that United States government understands this. 577 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, very well said. That was what I was trying 578 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: to get at my question with Vitant that this is 579 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: a moment where, despite everything that the US has done, 580 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: this is a moment where if they did recognize the 581 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: democratic results from this election, I think that would go 582 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: a long way to mending some of the defenses that 583 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: they broke over the last over the last few years. 584 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 2: But we'll see. We're going to continue to follow it. 585 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: Mas Wikas, thank you both for joining me. 586 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.