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Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.

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Speaker 1: Chris Harrison coming to you from the home office in Austin,

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Speaker 1: Texas with another very interesting episode of the Most Dramatic

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Speaker 1: podcast Ever. A few weeks ago, we did a quote

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Speaker 1: unquote villains of Reality TV, people that truly were disliked

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Speaker 1: when they came on the show, deservedly or not. But

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Speaker 1: I wanted to continue this conversation with people that I

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Speaker 1: feel anyway were definitely mislabeled as villains. They came off

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Speaker 1: as villains on the show, but then later we all realized,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that was really fair. Vicky gun Wilson,

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Speaker 1: the Original Housewife, the og of the OC, Michelle Money

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Speaker 1: from Bachelor Bachelorette, World, Bachelor in Paradise, someone I know

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Speaker 1: very well, a good friend of mine, and Jerry Manthey

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Speaker 1: from I feel like these three women in particular were

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Speaker 1: all well, they all had their moments as villains, but

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Speaker 1: were they And I was a huge fan of Jerry's

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Speaker 1: on Survivor. Michelle I knew very well and actually kind

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Speaker 1: of came to her defense in one of the specials.

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Speaker 1: So these three women I thought would have great perspective

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Speaker 1: and I thought would really carry this conversation to the

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Speaker 1: next level, joining me clearly from the OC, I mean

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Speaker 1: beautiful Newport in the background, Vicki Gunwilson, Vicky, how are

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Speaker 1: you doing.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Chris Good I'm doing great.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, especially for this episode. We had

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Speaker 1: such a strong response as we were talking to kind

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Speaker 1: of the pseudo villains of reality TV. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that Moniker really fits for you.

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Speaker 1: And actually the housewives in general is kind of interesting

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Speaker 1: because at one time or another, everybody is kind of

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Speaker 1: a quote unquote villain and then sometimes you're the hero.

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Speaker 3: I never want to be classified as a villain because

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Speaker 3: I have an empathetic heart and I want to be

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Speaker 3: kind to people. But I will definitely stick up for

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Speaker 3: myself when I have to. So when I started, I

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Speaker 3: was married. Most of the women were married, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of us unfortunately got divorced. So the whole housewife

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Speaker 3: you know, name doesn't really pertain to me anymore. I

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Speaker 3: was forty two when I started, and I'm sixty one now,

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Speaker 3: so you know, life went through two decades almost of

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Speaker 3: you know, being a reality star, it's crazy, but you are.

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Speaker 1: You are the original I mean, you are the og

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Speaker 1: of the OC now.

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Speaker 3: It's just time goes by so fast. It's incredible. I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you understand.

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Speaker 1: That, right, I do, and it is remarkable. But and

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Speaker 1: have you what has struck you the most when you think, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for twenty years. I started this thing.

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Speaker 2: I know it did.

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Speaker 3: I think, what's what really strikes with me at the

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Speaker 3: very end of our lives or whatever that may be,

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Speaker 3: is just the experiences, the places I've been to, the

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Speaker 3: people that I've met.

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Speaker 2: I think that you can't put a number on that.

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Speaker 3: It's just been pretty incredible when I look back, and

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Speaker 3: there was some years which were horrible, but I just

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Speaker 3: always had the grounding of I know the truth. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to stay with that and you know, you get

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Speaker 3: through it. But there's definitely some bad years.

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Speaker 1: Like I was saying, I think you know your show

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Speaker 1: is a little bit different with Housewives. I think everybody

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Speaker 1: has a season or at least part of a season

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Speaker 1: where they are the quote unquote bad guy. Have you

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Speaker 1: seen I don't know how much you watch or keep

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Speaker 1: up with the franchise, but have you seen it change

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Speaker 1: over the years? How's it evolved since day one in

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Speaker 1: the OC all the way through all these other incarnations

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Speaker 1: of the show.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that when the girls are coming on now,

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Speaker 3: they're really doing an interview against two or three hundred

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Speaker 3: other women. When I was chosen, I did a little

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Speaker 3: interview as got done left. But it wasn't like I

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Speaker 3: even knew what reality TV was. There was only one

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Speaker 3: show on at that time, which was Queer for the

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Speaker 3: Straight Guy, and I didn't even watch this, so I

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Speaker 3: didn't know how this was going to play out. We

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Speaker 3: didn't have a screen, We didn't know what was going on.

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Speaker 3: Now the girls know what they have to do to

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Speaker 3: stay on.

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Speaker 2: They got to be.

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Speaker 3: An asshole, you know. And we didn't come in like that.

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Speaker 3: We came in as a mother, a wife and wanted

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Speaker 3: to show that you can work, you can have a career,

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Speaker 3: and you can be a mother and a wife and

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Speaker 3: cook dinner every night. And that was something that I

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Speaker 3: really did in real life. And Scott done that, who

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Speaker 3: was the creator and founder of this franchise, said most

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Speaker 3: women in Coto don't do that. They you know, they

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Speaker 3: order out or they're playing tennis all day.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I go to work, you know. So that's

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Speaker 2: why it was. It was such a change.

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Speaker 3: Now a lot of the women you know don't have

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Speaker 3: a career or they're trying to find a career, which

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Speaker 3: I'm proud of them for that, but it's totally different

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Speaker 3: now they're actually auditioning.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head.

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Speaker 1: Is back in the day, housewives had a career and

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Speaker 1: that's what was shown. Now being a housewife is a career.

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Speaker 1: That is the career, and I think in a lot

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Speaker 1: of reality TV that is how things have changed, is

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Speaker 1: they look at that as what's going to give you

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Speaker 1: the break in life, as opposed to these people are

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Speaker 1: already so magnificent. Let's just expose that.

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Speaker 2: I know, you know what, Chris.

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Speaker 3: The hard part is for me is that they don't

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Speaker 3: understand that this isn't going to last forever. The pack

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Speaker 3: they're getting is going to stop and they better have

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Speaker 3: another plan. B And I think many of them, if

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Speaker 3: they've been on more than six years or seven years,

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Speaker 3: that's their career, and I worry about them because they

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Speaker 3: don't have anything else going to support themselves.

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Speaker 1: I had Kelly dodd On, who was obviously a villain

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Speaker 1: and known as that someone you tangled with and I

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Speaker 1: even asked her, is there anything you regret that you've done?

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Speaker 1: And I actually brought up a moment that involved you,

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Speaker 1: was I think she called you a pig on the show,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, no, I don't regret anything. And so

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Speaker 1: as you look back, is there anything that stood out

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Speaker 1: to you that you wish wish I had to do.

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Speaker 3: Over well, a couple of things, actually mentioning Kelly. She

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Speaker 3: introduced me to my boyfriend, and so that was a

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Speaker 3: good thing that came from the show. But I think that,

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Speaker 3: you know, when I saw the red flags with my

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Speaker 3: ex Brooks, I should have failed, I should have left,

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Speaker 3: but I was I'm a lifer, diver, I die hard.

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Speaker 3: I just stay until.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing, you know, obviously fell apart. But that

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Speaker 2: I regret.

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Speaker 3: People saw things that I didn't see and I was

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Speaker 3: in it too deep and I was just like, no way.

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Speaker 3: So but I was not one to go out and

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Speaker 3: hurt people. Yes, Kelly said I look like a pig,

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Speaker 3: because she was going on what Slave had already called me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, like a pig, that's an animal, that's an

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Speaker 3: ugly animal. So it was very hurtful and Kelly afterwards apologized,

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Speaker 3: but I'm like, you know what, that's that's on tapes forever.

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Speaker 2: That very very hurtful. So I don't come from that

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Speaker 2: place of hurt. She was a villain.

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Speaker 3: She was really good TV beautiful woman. So that was

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Speaker 3: that was tough for me to get through that. Did

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Speaker 3: I handle it right?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. You do the best. We do the

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Speaker 1: best we can. In the moment you mentioned you mentioned

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Speaker 1: your ex Brooks Heirs, who had lied about having cancer.

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Speaker 1: And do you feel like maybe you got caught up

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Speaker 1: in that and do you now see why maybe fans

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Speaker 1: didn't support you in that moment, Like you know, it's

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Speaker 1: guilt by association.

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Speaker 3: So first of all, there's no reason why I would

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Speaker 3: have been in on it. You know, I have a

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Speaker 3: full life. I didn't need that as my quote unquote storyline.

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Speaker 2: I loved a man who told me something. I believed him.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 3: His parents, his children, everybody was telling me he has cancer.

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Speaker 3: Why is your cast saying he doesn't? And you know,

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Speaker 3: I said, Brooks, give me all your records. He's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, if I don't know where these are going

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Speaker 3: to go, So I'm not giving you anything now. And

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Speaker 3: our relationships started falling power and he's like, who do

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Speaker 3: you care more about the show or me? And I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I care more about you. And it was a it

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Speaker 3: was a constant cycle of going what in the world

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Speaker 3: is going on here? I knew he already had lymphoma

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Speaker 3: years in years prior, so it wasn't shocking that back.

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Speaker 3: So I never will know the truth. I don't know

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Speaker 3: what happened. He left me in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: night and I never talked to him since, so it

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Speaker 3: was coming down pretty hard on him. So it was

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Speaker 3: a sad, sad place in my life because I was

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Speaker 3: spent five years of my life with him, you know.

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Speaker 1: Well, and what a bizarre thing to have happened at

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Speaker 1: any time in your life to anybody, much less the

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Speaker 1: cameras are rolling and this is all aired out.

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Speaker 3: I know, and he's like, I'm not getting paid to

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Speaker 3: do this. Why am I going to show anybody anything.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you're right, they're wrong.

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Speaker 2: Let's just love on each other and keep moving on.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately I'm caught in the middle of it on TV.

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Speaker 2: Somebody help me?

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Speaker 1: Are there speaking of? Are there any housewives that were

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Speaker 1: never cast or portrayed as a villain? But you think

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Speaker 1: maybe they should have, Like maybe America didn't quite see

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Speaker 1: what we all saw.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know who wasn't cast because my circle's pretty small,

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Speaker 3: even though I've been on reality TV for a long time.

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Speaker 3: I go to work every day, I work hard, I

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Speaker 3: come home. I have a few good girlfriends, and I

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Speaker 3: don't really I'm not in the social circle of Newport

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Speaker 3: and all this stuff out here. I very I'm private,

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Speaker 3: and that's crazy to think that, but I am.

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Speaker 2: I'm very private. I don't care a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of stuff because I don't know where it's going

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Speaker 3: to go. So I uh, I don't know about the

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Speaker 3: people that weren't cast.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, Bravo, I mean people who were

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Speaker 1: on the show, like people that were on the show

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Speaker 1: that didn't you know, maybe they.

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Speaker 3: That's a tough one, you know. Tamora and I and

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Speaker 3: Shannon have a very strong bond. We call ourselves a

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Speaker 3: trace of Me goes. In fact, we're starting our first

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Speaker 3: show and it's a skit and it's play on us

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Speaker 3: and we're silly, stupid, slapstick fun. But I think that

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Speaker 3: you know, when Bravo got rid of Tamara and I

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Speaker 3: it was a tough day for both of us.

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Speaker 2: We cried our eyes up.

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Speaker 4: We're like, what are we gonna be now? I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I'm going back to Codo Insurance. I don't know what

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Speaker 4: you're gonna do, you know, like I'm going back to

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Speaker 4: cut Fitness. So we both had another place to go

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Speaker 4: to work, and you know, that was really good for

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Speaker 4: both of us because we weren't so trial of being

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Speaker 4: a reality star. You know, it was we had something else.

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Speaker 2: So that was good.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about this season and Tamara's moments

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Speaker 1: on the show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Tama's Tama definitely came back strong.

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Speaker 3: I think she had to. She's not meek at all,

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Speaker 3: and she'll tell you what she thinks and sometimes that's

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Speaker 3: hard to hear, but I you know, I think she's

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Speaker 3: happy she's back. I didn't see the last episode, so

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Speaker 3: I talk to them every day, Tamar and Shannon, and

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Speaker 3: we have a really good friendship. And you know, Tama

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Speaker 3: on TV is different than Tammar in real life. And

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Speaker 3: I know what she has to do and she'll she'll

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Speaker 3: call people up, but that's her quote unquote role. I mean,

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Speaker 3: she is telling people what she thinks. Where I would

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Speaker 3: just go like, I don't want to hang out with you.

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Speaker 1: You know, and you're going to make a I guess

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Speaker 1: we could call it a cameo. You're going to make

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Speaker 1: a brief appearance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm like maybe four or five times this season, you know, Tamman,

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Speaker 3: Shannon rallied for me, which was very nice to them.

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Speaker 3: They're like, we can't have this without VICKI. She's the

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Speaker 3: glue that kind of hell holds us together. So evolution

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Speaker 3: brought me on I don't know, four or five different times.

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Speaker 3: So that was good, and that was hard because I

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Speaker 3: was like I didn't know what was going on the

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Speaker 3: season because I didn't get to see it, So.

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Speaker 2: I don't know who's fighting with who and why are

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Speaker 2: we fighting? And can't we just all get along?

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Speaker 1: And you know, are you in talks for more? Would

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Speaker 1: you like to come back full time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I would.

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Speaker 3: You know, I miss it. I miss it a lot.

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Speaker 3: If I don't, then I'm moving on to something else.

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Speaker 3: I've got some other things in the works, and so

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Speaker 3: if I do, then I'll do my best.

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Speaker 2: Again. I've always done my very best, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, hey, to use a sports analogy here, If

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Speaker 1: you're the coach. You don't leave a Hall of Famer

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Speaker 1: on the bench, That's all I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't want to be on the bench.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you only created this whole thing and

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Speaker 1: started this thing. They're damn lucky to have you.

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 3: I did the Ultimate Girls Trip four in Morocco other

259
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,959
Speaker 3: girls from other franchises like Phedra and Brandy Glamville, and

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Speaker 3: we had a great time be airing towards the end

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Speaker 3: of the year. So you know, that's always fun for

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Speaker 3: me to get back in front of the camera and

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Speaker 3: be mean.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's Housewives in particular or maybe

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Speaker 1: Reality TV, but there are lots of divorces in the

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Speaker 1: Housewives universe. You're one of them.

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Speaker 5: Is it.

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Speaker 6: I mean, how.

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Speaker 1: Exponentially stressful is it to try and have a relationship

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Speaker 1: and keep it normal and be in love and do

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Speaker 1: and be a housewife?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Chris, it's really hard. And I just think not

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Speaker 3: only the Housewife franchise, the whole world.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people are.

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Speaker 3: Exiting out of relationships without working on them, and I

277
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Speaker 3: was one of them, and I hate that I did that.

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Speaker 3: I got caught up in traveling a lot. You know,

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Speaker 3: God and I were getting disconnected. I had teenagers. There

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Speaker 3: was just a lot of dick and I was just like,

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Speaker 3: I want more in a relationship. And so I truly

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Speaker 3: believe that if I didn't do reality TV, we'd still be.

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Speaker 2: Together and interesting, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And he knows that, and he just is like,

285
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Speaker 3: you were gone so much, you were traveling, you were

286
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Speaker 3: working so much, and there was nothing left for us

287
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Speaker 3: at the end of the night. And you got to

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Speaker 3: really prioritize if your marriage is important and your family

289
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Speaker 3: is important, that's got to be number one. God first,

290
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Speaker 3: and your relationship and your kids and all that. So

291
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Speaker 3: I felt prey to the just the whole limelight and

292
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Speaker 3: being known and recognized and working and being on the

293
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Speaker 3: side of buses in New York. And Don would not

294
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Speaker 3: want to go. And he's like, we're going to get

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Speaker 3: divorced if you keep this up. I'm like, we're not

296
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Speaker 3: going to get divorced. Just let me fly like a bird.

297
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Speaker 3: I'll come back to the nest. And at the end

298
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Speaker 3: of the day, when I came back to the nest,

299
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Speaker 3: the nest is gone. You know, it was just empty,

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Speaker 3: there was nothing left.

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Speaker 1: I understand that. I mean, I went through that myself

302
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Speaker 1: of being and I was just the host of a

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00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 1: show for twenty years, and that divide happened, and you

304
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 1: never thought it was going to and it wasn't intentional,

305
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,920
Speaker 1: but it happens. I totally understand, you know.

306
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Speaker 3: And you look out into this world in Newport and

307
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 3: all the people, you know, divorce rate in California is

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Speaker 3: like seventy five percent.

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Speaker 1: It's hard.

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Speaker 3: And I'm from Chicago, like, we don't get divorced. We

311
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Speaker 3: stay and stay and make it better. And none of

312
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 3: my girlfriends are divorced back there, none of my family

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Speaker 3: has ever been divorced.

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Speaker 2: Moving out here in California, my mother said, You're gonna

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Speaker 2: end up getting divorced. Don't go there. I'm like, why

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Speaker 2: would I get divorced? You know?

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Speaker 1: And lo and behold, we moms, no moms, no best.

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Speaker 1: There was a big scand of all obviously that captured

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00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: our imagination early this summer from vander Pump Rules. You

320
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 1: have said that the scand of aal, this deal with

321
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 1: Tom Sandoval and Vander Pump one hundred percent staged. Is

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00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 1: this just your guests? Do you know this to be true?

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Speaker 2: I know nothing.

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00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,040
Speaker 3: I know nothing other than I believe that production. I

325
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 3: truly believe this knew what was going on. Everybody knew

326
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,280
Speaker 3: what was going on, and they're ratings shot up that

327
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 3: maybe they were dead in the water.

328
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Speaker 2: I don't know, but all those people.

329
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Speaker 3: There's there's no loyalty in that seems like everybody just

330
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 3: screwing everybody. It's like in the world, you know, you're

331
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Speaker 3: not my friend if you're screwing my fiance or my

332
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Speaker 3: person I've lived with for nine years. And that came out,

333
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 3: But I think there's so much more to it that

334
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 3: we'll never know. These girls don't have a career when

335
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,960
Speaker 3: this thing ends, What are they going to do?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, look, and I know nothing about

337
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 1: the production at Bravo, but just obviously I know intimately

338
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 1: the world of reality TV and producing it. Do I

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00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: think it was one hundred percent stage? Probably not. Did

340
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Speaker 1: they help it along and did they use it the

341
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Speaker 1: best they could and maybe you know, hold on to

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00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 1: it and manifest it? Yes? Yeah, of course they did.

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Speaker 3: They know what they're doing. I mean, an incredibly great

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00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 3: production company. The producers are you know, somewhat conniving, like

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Speaker 3: tell this girl this when they know that what the

346
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 3: answer is going to be and I had no idea

347
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 3: about it. So that's what I meant about one hundred

348
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 3: percent stage. These producers know what's going on and they

349
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 3: know how to get what they need to create a show,

350
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Speaker 3: and that's what they were doing, Megan Edmunds with me.

351
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 3: I mean they were going into her ear ask her

352
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 3: for the records, Like, why did somebody ask me for

353
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,040
Speaker 3: medical records?

354
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 2: I'm never showing anybody my records.

355
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 1: The setup, the setup was there. You were set up

356
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Speaker 1: to fail.

357
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 3: Yep, yep, there's no way around it. So that's what

358
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 3: I meant by that. It's not that you know, the

359
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,160
Speaker 3: producer said, oh you cheat, I'm not one. That's not

360
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 3: what I meant. I meant was that everybody knew what

361
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,040
Speaker 3: was going on and they were pushing the narrative how

362
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 3: they needed it to go for a good show.

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00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,680
Speaker 1: Well, your insight is brilliant, because if there is anybody

364
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,480
Speaker 1: who knows it is the og of EOC that the

365
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 1: woman that started it all. VICKI thank you so much

366
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 1: for your time. I truly appreciate it.

367
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 2: My best to you.

368
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 3: Really, I'm really so proud of you and your career,

369
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 3: and you know now you're doing your podcast and I'm

370
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 3: proud well.

371
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: And likewise, I hope we see you more and more.

372
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,800
Speaker 1: Four or five times will not be enough this season.

373
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Speaker 1: So bring I'm on the I'm on the bring Vicky

374
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 1: back fan wagon.

375
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 2: No, my best you take.

376
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Speaker 1: Care joining me now. One of the dearest people in

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Speaker 1: my life, someone I love and adore and is a

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00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,919
Speaker 1: very good friend of mine. Michelle Money, thank you for

379
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,640
Speaker 1: joining me. Hi Harrison, you look fanatic.

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00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,200
Speaker 7: You're so sweet, You're so kind. I love to get

381
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 7: the call from you. Hey, you want to talk on

382
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:26,680
Speaker 7: the podcast.

383
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,120
Speaker 5: Let's do it.

384
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 1: Let's do it. I don't know if I'm sure you

385
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Speaker 1: are a religious listener of the most dramatic podcast ever.

386
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Speaker 1: But a few weeks ago, just in case you missed it,

387
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,400
Speaker 1: I did this kind of Villains episode and Courtney Roberson

388
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,280
Speaker 1: came on Richard Hatch from a Survivor and I just

389
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: I had these villains, and these are people that really

390
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,280
Speaker 1: kind of were known as villains. And then I thought,

391
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 1: what about the Michelle Moneies of the world. What about

392
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 1: those that technically were known as villains but they weren't,

393
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,200
Speaker 1: and we're really mislabeled. And I talked to Jerry Manthey

394
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 1: from a survivor and and I thought, this is you.

395
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,440
Speaker 1: I you know, I vividly remember your storyline so much

396
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 1: and even coming to your defense at the reunion show

397
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 1: when everybody was banging on you so much, and I

398
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,639
Speaker 1: was like, just stop. So that's why I wanted to

399
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,160
Speaker 1: have you on, among other things other than just your face.

400
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,880
Speaker 7: Oh you're so you know what's so funny, Chris? It's

401
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 7: for so long like that word villain like just triggered me.

402
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 7: It was like it just I was so impacted by it.

403
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:36,680
Speaker 7: It really bothered me obviously because it it didn't portray

404
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 7: who I really am, but it was really cool Like

405
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 7: a few years ago. I actually like maybe like five

406
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 7: years ago, I finally like kind of was I was

407
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,120
Speaker 7: like in this deep meditation and I was like, why

408
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,119
Speaker 7: why does this trigger me so much? Because I know

409
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 7: who I am and I know that this isn't that

410
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 7: isn't how you know I am? And then it hit

411
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 7: me how important it is that, like we all have

412
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 7: the I do have the ability to be a villain,

413
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 7: and I can give you evidence of me having been

414
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,159
Speaker 7: a villain in my life. And it was almost like

415
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 7: the rejecting of it. What's keeping me so stuck and

416
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 7: so like conflicted. And it wasn't until I just kind

417
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 7: of like, you know what, we all embody, all of

418
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 7: these personas and personality traits that we all can like

419
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,159
Speaker 7: express or not. And the second I was just like,

420
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,200
Speaker 7: you know what, there are parts of me that I'm

421
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 7: not proud of, and there's parts of me that I

422
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,199
Speaker 7: have kind of you know, like that would characterize me

423
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 7: as being a villain. It wasn't necessarily on that show,

424
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 7: and not necessarily in the way it was portrayed, but

425
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,480
Speaker 7: I finally like integrated it into myself and my life

426
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 7: and it was like, yeah, you know what, I'm not perfect.

427
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, Michelle, that is such an interesting take, and it's

428
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,160
Speaker 1: it's a take that nobody out of the six people

429
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: I've talked to during all this has gone that direction

430
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 1: at any given moment in our lives. We are all

431
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 1: capable if cameras were really to be the villain, if

432
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: our lives were totally exposed and we were on reality

433
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 1: TV you quote unquote, for sure, there's always moments where

434
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 1: we're not perfect and we don't look so good, and

435
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 1: we say stuff that we shouldn't say, or do things

436
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: we shouldn't do, and you regret it. Sometimes you don't.

437
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 1: Sometimes just you're acting. Yeah, sometimes you're just a human

438
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: being and you just say something or do something.

439
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 7: It's so true and this The more you just reject that,

440
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 7: the more like you connected you to come to it.

441
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 7: And so it's really cool that I can actually sit

442
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 7: and have this conversation with you now, because like five

443
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 7: years ago I would have been like, no, we're not

444
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:37,719
Speaker 7: talking about it.

445
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: And that's just five years ago. Oh yeah, I mean

446
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: that that was a long time after.

447
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's been interesting. I've like had to go to

448
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 7: therapy over all this. It's been like a very you know,

449
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 7: because the people who know me and love me know

450
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 7: I'm not worried about that, but it's that occasional person

451
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 7: I'll run into and it was like, oh yeah, you

452
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 7: were the villain, and it's like, god, you know, I'm

453
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 7: promise I'm not like trying to defend myself all the time.

454
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 7: But like I've worked through a lot of it, and

455
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 7: you know, so much of what I think empowered me

456
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 7: to evolve from that term is accountability. And you really

457
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 7: have to take ownership in knowing that, like I signed

458
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 7: the contract, like that's why it was this thing you know,

459
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 7: like I agreed to give my like they had could

460
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 7: do anything with the editing they could do, and I

461
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 7: have to take accountability for that, and that was more

462
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 7: empowering than like trying to reject this like word that

463
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 7: is so tricker.

464
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is people that come up and say

465
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 1: that mean nothing by it. It's like when they see

466
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 1: me and they're like, hey, Rose guy, or it's yeah,

467
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, or they say one of my silly, stupid

468
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 1: phrases that I said for so many years, and it's like,

469
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: they mean nothing by it. It's just what they can

470
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 1: tell me with. And they actually usually end up being

471
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 1: very nice and want to have a conversation for sure.

472
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: And you know that's really saying, hey Michelle Money, you're

473
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: a real bitch. It's like, no, they just knew you.

474
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

475
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 1: But the funny thing is for me is out of

476
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 1: all the people that you know, look, I was no

477
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: on Survivor and Real Housewives and all that, I intimately

478
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: was involved in your situation. And so that's why I

479
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 1: was always so emotional about it. And it's it's tough

480
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 1: for me to hear how much you struggled because I've

481
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: known you to be such a tough woman, and you

482
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: you give off this very tough exterior, but deep down

483
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: you were struggling with this.

484
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, well, and it's interesting, like, you know, as you,

485
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 7: as you evolve in age and kind of grow up,

486
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 7: you have I have the ability to now look back

487
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 7: on situations and understand like, Okay, yeah, I can see

488
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 7: how I came across as aggressive. I can see now

489
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 7: how somebody would read that as you know, like a

490
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 7: little overly confident. And you know, but it's taken me

491
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 7: a long time to have that much like self awareness

492
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 7: to even look look at it without mindset.

493
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: You know, did you ever watch the show back?

494
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 6: No?

495
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: Never.

496
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 7: I stopped watching after like a few episodes when I

497
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 7: realized like, oh, this is what they're doing to me.

498
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 7: I mean, there were so many, so many situations that

499
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 7: were just edited out of context and totally picked and

500
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 7: put into different Like I don't know if you remember,

501
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 7: but like the last when I like left Anguilla, I

502
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 7: like had this whole conversation with Brad that that was

503
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 7: beautiful and really wonderful and I felt like a lot

504
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 7: of closure from it. And then I got into the

505
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 7: limo and I get really carsick, and so I'd like

506
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 7: done my interview in the limo and everything, and then

507
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 7: I laid down because I was really sick, and they

508
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 7: cut the whole conversation.

509
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 6: That I had with Brad out.

510
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 7: They cut the whole interview in the limo and just

511
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 7: made it look like I like didn't talk to him,

512
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 7: got in the limo, laid down, And so those were

513
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 7: the things that were really hard for me because it

514
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 7: was like trying to defend something that didn't happen right right.

515
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 6: It was like like people.

516
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: Saying, and if somebody hasn't seen it, how do you

517
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 1: explain it? And it just falls on deaf ears totally.

518
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 6: And those were the things that I think.

519
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 7: Were the hardest because it was they were things that

520
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 7: literally did not happen, And so that is tricky because

521
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 7: it's like I can't I can't argue with what how

522
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 7: many millions of people are watching and it's not worth

523
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 7: it to be honest, and so yeah, man, it is a.

524
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 6: Psychological like yeah.

525
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: And it's anybody can say, oh, you know, even you

526
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: said it yourself, I signed up for this whatever, but

527
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: you didn't sign You didn't sign up for that, that's

528
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: not what you're signed up.

529
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 7: Well, no, and you never think it's going to happen

530
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 7: to you, right, you know what I mean.

531
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: I say that to people all the time, if you

532
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: think you're the guy that's or girl that's just going

533
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: to come in and look like Captain America or Miss America,

534
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: like that happens to point oh one per se.

535
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah you're wrong.

536
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's so true everybody, you know, very

537
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: few people get through this unscathed, and myself included.

538
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, you I mean, yeah, you get it. The

539
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 7: thing that I'm so grateful for, Like it's so interesting.

540
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 7: As I look back, I'm like, I wouldn't change anything, right,

541
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 7: like in the in the moment, in the years following,

542
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 7: like it was really it was hard for me. But

543
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 7: what it did was it put me like on a

544
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 7: fast track to stop caring about what other people think

545
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 7: of me. Interesting and the second the moment that you

546
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 7: are truly free from worrying about what anyone else thinks

547
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 7: about you other than like God and your family, and

548
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 7: like you're free, And it put me on the fast

549
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 7: track to freedom because that I really had to look

550
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 7: in the mirror and be like, am I going to

551
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 7: let these people that I don't even know but don't

552
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 7: even know me, like dictate my worth and my joy.

553
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 7: And I think the sooner that we get to that

554
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 7: place in our lives, the happier we've come. And that

555
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 7: was just the path that I went down. That like

556
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 7: freed me up.

557
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: I just went through that journey myself. I mean it

558
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: took and I'm fifty one and I just got to

559
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: that place in life because it took a catastrophic event

560
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:15,239
Speaker 1: to create that.

561
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

562
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: Man, And like you said.

563
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 6: And do you feel free?

564
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: Like do you feel better than I have in my

565
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 1: entire life? Yeah? And why because once you, like you said,

566
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: once you take responsibility for who you are, once you

567
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: take responsibility for your part and everything, then it kind

568
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: of just takes all the toxicity and the animosity off

569
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: the table. Like I don't totally there's nothing you're giving

570
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 1: to me I'm not getting, you know, And so yeah,

571
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,239
Speaker 1: there's a freedom there and a weight lifted off your

572
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: shoulders when and I hate to say it that you

573
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: don't care, because you and I are very caring people,

574
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: but it is to a certain degree you don't care.

575
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like what you think about me has nothing to

576
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 6: do with me.

577
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, your issue?

578
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 7: What I love what I love about that though, is

579
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 7: that what I think about you has everything to do

580
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 7: with me?

581
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, And.

582
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 7: So that is where I put my energy is in

583
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 7: is in like sending out the love, aligning with love,

584
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 7: like if you know, if I have hard feelings for you,

585
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 7: that's a me thing, that's not a youth thing, Like

586
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 7: why am I offended by you? Like I take accountability

587
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 7: for that now. And so what you think of me

588
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 7: has nothing to do with me. But what I think

589
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 7: of you has everything to do with me. And that

590
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 7: is that is.

591
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: Empowering, it's beautiful.

592
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 6: And yeah, and I learned all that because that was

593
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 6: the villain.

594
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: The villain. Well, what's funny is, yeah, you know to

595
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: hear you struggle so much. I was actually on an

596
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: airplane last night and flipping through my phone because we

597
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: didn't have service, and the most amazing picture came up.

598
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: It was twenty thirteen and we were at your dad's

599
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 1: charity events and honor of our late father for colon cancer.

600
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, we were in I think where's a park City,

601
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: Park City, Utah?

602
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 7: Uh, yeah, well we know we were. We had a

603
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 7: Hunts and Cancer institute.

604
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's you're right. We're in Salt Lake City and

605
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: so we were there, and so I was looking back

606
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: at these pictures and I was like, oh man, it's

607
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: amazing you and I are about to talk today and

608
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: this picture just came up, and that's wild, you know,

609
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: I don't I remember back then you being happy and

610
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: already being so beloved, and yes, you had that villain Moniker.

611
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: But I feel like after the show, the tide really

612
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: changed already, and people started falling in love and seeing

613
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: Michelle money is what she was, this very funny, very intelligent,

614
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: self deprecating woman, and that started to finally come across.

615
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me that you, deep down were

616
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: still struggling with that.

617
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, well, And I think what was going on

618
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 7: as I look back on it, is people were starting

619
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 7: to understand more of me.

620
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 4: Right.

621
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 7: It's like, which is so like we do this in life, right,

622
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 7: Like we're so quick to put someone in a category,

623
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 7: and we're so quick to pass the judgment. And and

624
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 7: the truth is, the more you get to learn about people,

625
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 7: the more you spend time with someone, the more you're

626
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 7: you let them.

627
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 6: Off the hook a little bit easier, right, And.

628
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 7: So I think what was going on as I was

629
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 7: on Bachelor Pad people got to see other aspects of

630
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 7: who I am, and then Bachelor and Paradise that kind

631
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 7: of just expanded, and then you realize that we're all

632
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 7: just human beings. Like we're all just human and so

633
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 7: that's why I think, and I think that is true

634
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 7: for like people like Courtney and you know, like, oh,

635
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 7: I think anyone like the more you really get to

636
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 7: know someone and see, you know, all the whole spectrum

637
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 7: of their personality, you just have a little bit more

638
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 7: like you feel a little bit more connected to them and.

639
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: Relatable, and you realize that, Yeah, and I love Courtney,

640
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: and I always loved Courtney. And while I understood there

641
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: was certain things she did and said at the time

642
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: because of who she was and her profession and everything,

643
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: that it didn't look great in the light of day,

644
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: but I understood where it came from. And that was

645
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: I always said when I did interviews, no matter who

646
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: it was, whether it was you or Courtney or Chad

647
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: or anybody, even Juan Pablo or whatever, where people found

648
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: it so easy to dislike them and they wanted me

649
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: to just pile on. And I could be critical about people,

650
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: but I always found it so simple to say this

651
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: person's bad, this person's good, she's a bitch, he's a jerk. Whatever. Yeah,

652
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: life's not that simple life. It's not that black and white.

653
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: There's this gray area. And I always wondered why these

654
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: people were the way they were. And that's what I

655
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: always found fascinating about the show is what makes people tick?

656
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: What got you to this point? What made you say that?

657
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: What made you do that? And even when I went

658
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: through what I went through, I felt I did that

659
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: same look in the mirror of Okay, what got you

660
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: to this point? What you know? What are all the factors?

661
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: You know, outlying factors, inside factors. And so if you

662
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: don't look in the mirror first, I think you're failing yourself.

663
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: And I think just painting somebody villain good. That's just

664
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: it's a silly concept.

665
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 6: It is.

666
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 7: And it's interesting because when you understand like as far

667
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 7: as like a reality show goes, like you need to

668
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 7: have that character arc, I understand it from like a

669
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 7: production standpoint and a storyline standpoint, and so it's like

670
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 7: like for it because for a long time I was

671
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 7: mad at like the editors, and I was mad at

672
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 7: like yeah, you know, and when you understand like no, no, no, no,

673
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 7: like everyone's just doing their job.

674
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 6: Like no one's out to get me.

675
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, no one. I hate Michelle Money, I'm gonna

676
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: be nobody's like.

677
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 6: She's the worst.

678
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 7: I'm gonna it's just it's just part of what you say, totally, totally,

679
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 7: and so you know it's funny now. I'm just like

680
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 7: it's so cool to not have like when you texted

681
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 7: me and we're like, you know, I want to talk

682
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 7: about like the villain thing, Like it took me a

683
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 7: few hours to.

684
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 6: Realize, oh my gosh.

685
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 7: That didn't even trigger me, Like that didn't even like

686
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 7: it was like, yes, I'll talk to you, Harrison, I'll

687
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 7: talk to you about anything.

688
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: And you know, I love and adore you, and yes,

689
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: that's so true.

690
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 7: And you I have to say, like you coming to

691
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 7: my rescue and you really like standing up for me

692
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 7: when I was getting like attacked on women tell all,

693
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 7: like that was one of the most impactful moments of

694
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 7: my life and that I'll never ever get over it.

695
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 7: Like I'm so grateful to you for like standing up

696
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 7: for me and speaking up when no one else was.

697
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 7: As I know that was probably a hard position for

698
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 7: you to be in.

699
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: Well, and likewise, the first one of if not the

700
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: first person to reach out to me as soon as

701
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: I got divorced and my divorce went public and it

702
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: got messy and all that. You were the first one

703
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: by my side and I'll spend time with you, and

704
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: you became one of my dearest friends. And so I

705
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: appreciate you so much.

706
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 7: Thank you so much, and you're the best ever, And

707
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 7: thank you for all you do for me.

708
00:32:52,720 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: Love you, my friend, Love you joining me. Now, maybe

709
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: she was the original bad girl of Survivor? Is that fair,

710
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: Jerry Manthey? Is that fair?

711
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 7: Oh?

712
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 5: Yes, it's absolutely fair.

713
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: Jerry Manthy from three seasons of Survivor, I think, is

714
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: that right? It wasn't it three total.

715
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 5: That she was free?

716
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: But originally Australian Outback, which was I was looking back

717
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: at the most viewed season, No wonder they called you

718
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: back so many times.

719
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I might have had a small effect

720
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 5: on the franchise.

721
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: And at the time, so knowing my Bachelor numbers, our

722
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: biggest season when we were the number one show on TV,

723
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: I think it was around that time, was thirty three million.

724
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: So my guess is Australian Outback was probably a little

725
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: bigger thirty five maybe thirty six million viewers at the time.

726
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: That is insane to think about, isn't it. It is.

727
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 5: I don't know any other show that gets that many.

728
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: Nothing does now. I mean, right now, they're happy if

729
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: you get three million. I mean seriously, on primetime TV,

730
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: if you're doing three million, you're like, oh wow, look

731
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: at us. We were throwing I mean three million. You

732
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: could sneeze and lose three million back in the day

733
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: and you were fine. That's you. Guys left such an

734
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: impression When I look back and Survivor, and I'm a

735
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: big fan. I was a huge fan of yours, and

736
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 1: I talked to Richard Hatch as well, who I really loved.

737
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: Back in the day, Survivor was different because I felt like,

738
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: the quote unquote villains were just really good at playing

739
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: the game. Is that fair?

740
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think it is fair. And I mean nobody

741
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 5: had any idea how it worked yet, and everyone thought

742
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 5: that what they saw on television was real. So we

743
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 5: had that kind of going against us as well, like

744
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 5: they didn't understand the editing process yet, or storylines or

745
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 5: all those things.

746
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: None of us did, I mean, producers, probes, none of us.

747
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: We were all trying to figure it out.

748
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was. It was intense, you know, like I

749
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 5: I really it was such a weird time too, because

750
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 5: we didn't have the internet per se. There were some

751
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 5: rooms going on that were very evil.

752
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: But it was such dark web stuff that Yeah, but.

753
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 5: It was the tabloids ye, so and that was still

754
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 5: that's like the social media of our time.

755
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was. I mean even the tabloids were

756
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, more tame, honestly, and more controlled than

757
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: what can be spewed now. I remember. I think the

758
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: first time I ran into you was was it it

759
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: celebrity Dodgeball when there was the Survivor team?

760
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 5: I think so, yeah, because you were a huge fan

761
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 5: of Survivor. I remember you were very nice to me.

762
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: I loved and I met Colby Donaldson who was on

763
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: your season. He was there who I actually kind of

764
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: became friends with and talked to for quite a bit

765
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: as we're both Texas boys. And I remember talking to

766
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: Probes that night because I was hired for The Bachelor

767
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: already but I hadn't shot it yet, and I remember

768
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: talking to all of you and asking, what in the

769
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 1: world is this reality TV genre? What are we doing?

770
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: And I was so curious because I didn't know what

771
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: I was getting myself into. Even as a host and producer.

772
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: I had no clue yet, and so that we were

773
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: just so naive back then.

774
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 5: We were, and I think that's what made it so

775
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 5: magical was we didn't know what we were doing at all.

776
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 5: I just knew going on the show that I was

777
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 5: going to model my game after Richard Hatch, which was

778
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 5: creating an alliance as fast as I possibly could, and

779
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 5: that's all that mattered. I had no idea what was

780
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 5: going to happen afterwards, Like my experience out there was

781
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 5: very different than the way it ended up looking on television.

782
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: Well that's you know. Michelle Money from Our Bachelor World

783
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: is on this episode as well, And one of the

784
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: reasons I wanted to put the two of you on

785
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: this episode is villains who aren't really villains in real

786
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: life and maybe not even villains on the show, and

787
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: Michelle Money fell into that same category. And I knew

788
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 1: that more intimately because I was there. But I felt

789
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: the same thing about you, and especially after I met you,

790
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: and I'm like, are you How could anybody be mad

791
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: at this lovely woman? I don't get I don't get

792
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: the vitriol. I don't get it, and so you. But

793
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: it's interesting that you felt the same way that when

794
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: you were in the outback in Australia, you didn't feel

795
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: like you were the villain. You were just playing the game.

796
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was very hard to watch. I just recently

797
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 5: rewatched that season and I haven't really seen it since

798
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,959
Speaker 5: it first aired, and I found myself like getting really

799
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 5: upset because I didn't do anything that should have warranted

800
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 5: being a villain. But again, at the times were so

801
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 5: different back then, and I mean I was being bullied,

802
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 5: Like I literally got bullied by these folks, and I

803
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 5: don't think that would fly now, especially now with the

804
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 5: new genre of Survivor.

805
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 1: And right when you say you were bullied by these folks,

806
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: you mean the other cast members producers.

807
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, the other cast They were mean to me,

808
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 5: and I didn't you know, I get emails from people

809
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 5: all the time they're like, what did you do? I

810
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 5: don't understand, Like why were you a villain? It doesn't

811
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 5: make any sense. And you can't, you know, take these

812
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 5: younger generation viewers back to the past and explain to

813
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 5: them where we were at in our lives.

814
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: No, by the way, I tried that, it doesn't work well.

815
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 5: That is making really old.

816
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you're out of touch. You have no idea.

817
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, we built the stage you're standing on.

818
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: By the way, you're welcome.

819
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I have noticed. I went to a charity

820
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 5: event last year, Hearts of Reality, which is you should go.

821
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 5: You would love it. There's a lot of newer players

822
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 5: on all these different shows that really love to give

823
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 5: us props. And I gotta say, it felt so good

824
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 5: to have people coming up to me going, thank you

825
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 5: for being a trailblazer, and you know, I appreciate you. Jerry,

826
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 5: You're the o og, you know. And I'm like, it's

827
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: it's pretty interesting, especially when someone's like, I've been watching

828
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 5: you since I was two years old, and I'm like.

829
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah I know that I was, you know,

830
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: when I was leaving the batch after twenty years. These

831
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: these young ladies are twenty years old and they've been watching.

832
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: But it's also such an honor to have that kind

833
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: of backing and that following. But it's so you mentioned

834
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: something about you modeled your game after Richard Hatch at

835
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: the time. Had you felt the repercussions against Richard and

836
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: still went with that theory, or at the time, did

837
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: you really not know how Richard was being perceived and

838
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: you just thought, hey, he's a good game player, because

839
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: he was. He was thrown out as kind of a

840
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: villain too.

841
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I didn't even watch season one because I

842
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 5: sent in a tape and they didn't pick me. And

843
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 5: I was an actress, you know, and I'm like, well,

844
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 5: you didn't cast me, then screw you in your stupid show.

845
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 5: But right before I left, like the I think a

846
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 5: finale was briefly before I got picked officially. So I

847
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 5: went back and watched all the episodes and I just

848
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 5: remember sitting there going, oh my god, what have I

849
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 5: gotten myself into? Right, Because if it was about surviving

850
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 5: in nature, I can do that, like that's no big deal.

851
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 5: But it was the social aspect of it that was

852
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 5: so triggering in some ways of like high school when

853
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 5: you know there were the popular kids and like all

854
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 5: the power struggles that happen at that time of your

855
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 5: life that are very triggering. And to realize that that

856
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 5: was going to be on national television, it was a

857
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 5: little a little scary, But I'm a very competitive person.

858
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 5: So second hit the ground, I was like, screw it.

859
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 5: You know, I'm here, I'm going to do this. I'm

860
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 5: going to go balls out and see what happened.

861
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: Well, when did you first feel the repercussions and know,

862
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm being painted as a villain and

863
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,959
Speaker 1: start feeling that was it when you got back home

864
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: after the finale?

865
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 5: No, it was episode two that was kind of mine.

866
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 5: It was airing, yeah, when it was airing, So episode

867
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 5: two is my defining episode. It was the episode where

868
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 5: I catch kel eating beef jerky and they make it

869
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 5: look like I made it up, which I did not.

870
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 5: It's when I confront Keith about the rice, and it

871
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 5: was just like this episode of.

872
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: All me like.

873
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 5: Throwing things out there that weren't well received because I

874
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 5: was just very brutally honest.

875
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 2: And I knew I just felt like this shift.

876
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 5: And I used to go to my friend's house every

877
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 5: week and stop at the grocery store and pick up

878
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 5: some wine and snacks and look over at the tabloids,

879
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 5: and my face would be on every single tabloid like, oh,

880
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 5: his boyfriends came out of the woodwork and said she

881
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 5: was this, this and this saying, oh, I got blamed

882
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 5: for breaking up Probe's marriage, Like it was craziness. So

883
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 5: I would just grab all the tabloids. I'd go to

884
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 5: my friend's house and I'd just be like, Oh my god,

885
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 5: what's happening.

886
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: He did date a former cast member, but it was

887
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: not you, it was not She worked for us on

888
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: The Bachelor for a bit as well, and so yeah,

889
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: it was definitely not your fault.

890
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 5: No it was. No, it wasn't anybody's fault. They had

891
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 5: their own thing going on.

892
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 6: I don't know.

893
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was crazy. And I remember one time in

894
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 5: La pulling out into traffic and this Porsche was flying

895
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 5: down Beverly Boulevard like I don't know, eighty miles an hour,

896
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 5: and he pulls up next to me and makes like

897
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 5: this window thing, Like what I rolled my window down? He's like,

898
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 5: that's why everybody thinks you're such a bitch in traffic.

899
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 5: I was like, I guess I pulled out in front

900
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 5: of you going eighty or something. I don't know. I

901
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 5: was like, oh my god, what is happening to my life?

902
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: That wild? Was? Was there a low point for you

903
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: in all of this that you were just like I

904
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: don't know if I could do this.

905
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I was an actress already before I did

906
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 5: the show, and I thought that being on this, the

907
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 5: number one TV show in America, would help propel my career.

908
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 5: But even people in casting were like, I don't want

909
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 5: to work with her. Look at what a beach she is.

910
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 5: And it was very frustrating for me because I was like,

911
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 5: oh my god, just get to know me. That's it

912
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 5: wasn't It was just Yeah, there was a lot of

913
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 5: really low low points for sure. I just tried to

914
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 5: make the best out of what I was being given.

915
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: Well, that's I guess that's my next question. You did

916
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: end up finding a way to lean into it and

917
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: monetize it. You did a couple more seasons, you did

918
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: All Stars, and then I think it was what heroes

919
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: versus villains? So they actually literally brought you back with

920
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: the title of a villain, made you go back and

921
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: do that again and lean into it. Was it just

922
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: the fact that hey, if I can't beat him, join them.

923
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 5: More or less? Yeah, And I just kept thinking that.

924
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 5: Like the second time I went back on, I said,

925
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 5: this time I'm going to go in and be more

926
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 5: vulnerable and sweet, which did not work in my favor.

927
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 5: You cannot do that on that show. You can't be vulnerable.

928
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 5: You're setting yourself up for all kinds of horrible situations.

929
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 5: I mean I almost quit. There was the worst storm

930
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 5: in Survivor history, and I thought we were going to die.

931
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 5: So I almost quit, but I stayed in there. And

932
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 5: then the last time I went on the same thing,

933
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 5: I was just like, you know what, screw it, and

934
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 5: I can't change anyone's mind so I might win the money, Like,

935
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 5: just focus on winning. I didn't care about screen time

936
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 5: or any of that stuff. I just wanted I wanted

937
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 5: a million dollars.

938
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: I mean, well, yeah, of course, why not.

939
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 5: I wanted it to be my character arc right, like that's.

940
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: Everybody she finally wins.

941
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I was one day, one day away from

942
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 5: winning and yeah, you.

943
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: Made Final four in that last season, right.

944
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 5: Oh yeah. Sometimes it was so hard. And you know

945
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 5: what's so funny is I just watched The Surreal Life

946
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 5: with Friends of Mine a couple of days ago for

947
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 5: the first time since it came out, and that show.

948
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 5: Going back and watching it, I got to be myself

949
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 5: like I am literally if you want to know what

950
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 5: I'm like, in real life. Ye go back and watch

951
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 5: that first season of Surreal Life. That is me and

952
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 5: I am still the same exact person as I was

953
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 5: back then. I look a little bit older.

954
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: But we all do you know, speaking of looking good,

955
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: you did Playboy in the middle of all this. I

956
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: remember that. I remember that was a big deal. That

957
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: was like a big deal back then. And first of all,

958
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: I haven't another question on top of this, but first

959
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: what made you say yes to that? And did they

960
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: approach you? Did you approach them?

961
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 5: They came to me and I called my parents and

962
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 5: my mom was like, oh my god, Like, my parents

963
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 5: are not right, it's not there, you know. But I

964
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: my whole life, I've lived a life that if I

965
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 5: could call my parents to be proud about something or

966
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 5: make them proud, that was like my litmus test as

967
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 5: to whether I should do it or not. I talked

968
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 5: to my mom and she was just like, are you

969
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 5: sure you want to do this? And I said, yeah,

970
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 5: I think so. It scares the living shit out of me,

971
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 5: so I have to do it.

972
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: Oh I love that.

973
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 5: Yeah. Things that challenge me are usually the things that

974
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 5: I I'm like, I got to figure out why I'm

975
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 5: scared of this. Yeah, there's something very, very vulnerable about

976
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 5: being naked, and I needed to do I needed to

977
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 5: explore that. Especially at that point, I felt like, maybe

978
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 5: this is how, you know, let people know that I'm

979
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 5: a human being and I have vulnerability.

980
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: You truly bear it all literally. Yeah, Hey, I appreciate

981
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: you coming on. I feel like I could talk to

982
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: you for hours. Thanks for the insight.

983
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 5: Absolutely see you.

984
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: My thanks to Vicky Jerry Am I good for Michelle

985
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 1: Money for coming on the show, sharing their journey, sharing

986
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: being a villain. And these are three women that are

987
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 1: extraordinary in their own ways, and I think Michelle Money

988
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: really summed it up so eloquently that at any point

989
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: in time, any of us that walk this earth can

990
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: be a villain. There are things that everybody listening would

991
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: probably not be proud of if it was put in

992
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: front of the world, and it's something I can definitely

993
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: relate to. And I really appreciate that they all opened

994
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: up in such a vulnerable way and shared their experience

995
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: on Housewives Survivor and of course Money with the back.

996
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: So my thanks to them and my thanks to you

997
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: as always. Appreciate you so much, and I will talk

998
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 1: to you next time, because we have a lot more

999
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: to talk about. Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram

1000
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: at the most Dramatic pod ever, and make sure to

1001
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: write us a review and leave us five stars. I'll

1002
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: talk to you next time.