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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I am Kate Hudson, and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our.

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Speaker 3: Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are

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Speaker 3: a sibling.

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Speaker 1: Railval No, no, sibling, don't do that with your mouth, revelry.

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Speaker 4: That's good, Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 3: Here, we already have our guests waiting in the waiting room,

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Speaker 3: so I don't want to be too long winded here.

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Speaker 3: But I'm not going to talk about my life because

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Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about my life with Richard Reeves.

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Speaker 3: Richard Reeves is our guest. I saw him. I think

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Speaker 3: he was on CNN. I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: He wrote a book. It's called of Boys and Men.

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Speaker 3: Why the modern male is struggling, whyat matters and what

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Speaker 3: to do about it? He hits upon all of these

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Speaker 3: really amazing subject matter. He talked about toxic masculinity. He

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Speaker 3: seems to be sort of spouting the things off that

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Speaker 3: I believe and that I talked about with my friends

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Speaker 3: about boys and men. And I have two boys of

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Speaker 3: my own, and he founded the American Institute for Boys

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Speaker 3: and Men, the AIBM, and I just want to.

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Speaker 4: Get into it with him.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk all about this because I'm very,

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Speaker 3: very fascinated, and I'm grateful that he's agreed to come on.

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Speaker 2: So bring them in. Man, let's chat. How you doing good?

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Speaker 4: How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm great? Thank you for indulging me. This is exciting.

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Speaker 3: I saw you. I can't remember where it was, whether

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Speaker 3: it was on CNN or you were talking just you know,

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Speaker 3: about boys and men and toxic masculinity and the importance

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Speaker 3: of it all. And I have two boys myself, eighteen

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Speaker 3: and fifteen, and everything that you were saying was resonating

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Speaker 3: with me. And you know, I was like, man, I

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Speaker 3: can I talk to Richard? I wonder if he'll talk

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Speaker 3: to me. And so I'm very grateful that you took

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Speaker 3: the time to come and have a chat with me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Likewise, I'm very happy to do this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, just we'll get to why

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Speaker 3: I am excited to have this conversation, because it's something

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Speaker 3: that I've been thinking about, especially since sort of the

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Speaker 3: Me Too movement, having boys who have grown up in

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Speaker 3: sort of that environment where yes, you know, it was

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Speaker 3: great that the pendulum did swing, but as with everything,

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Speaker 3: it seems like that pendulum swings very very far and

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Speaker 3: watching my boys grow up in that world and them

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Speaker 3: trying to understand what it's like to be a boy

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Speaker 3: and have these sort of feelings of just masculinity, of puberty,

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Speaker 3: of just advancing and how they had to sort of

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Speaker 3: navigate this world was really interesting to me. And I

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Speaker 3: would ask them questions about it, but they're kids and

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Speaker 3: they're like, I don't know, you know, they would just

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Speaker 3: give me that kind of an answer. But going back though,

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Speaker 3: just about your life, where did you grow up and

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Speaker 3: did you have siblings and what was sort of that

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Speaker 3: home life like for you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I did so. I grew up in Peterborough,

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Speaker 4: just north of London and you know, great parents in

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Speaker 4: fact an older brother or younger sister. And she was

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Speaker 4: asked by theo Von when I was in his podcast

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Speaker 4: about my relationship with my dad, and I just said,

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Speaker 4: without thinking about it, well, I've never, for a moment

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Speaker 4: doubted my father's love for me. And he said, I

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Speaker 4: wonder what that feels like because he hasn't had that experience.

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Speaker 4: And I came away from that exchange with him thinking

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Speaker 4: three things. One, what an extraordinary blessing that is? And

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Speaker 4: I kind of knew it but also just felt it

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Speaker 4: in a new way. Just what it means at the

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Speaker 4: core you to know, have an absolute certainty of your

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Speaker 4: father's love. Secondly, I saw the pain in him, had it.

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Speaker 4: The third thing I thought was, like, God, I hope

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Speaker 4: my three sons feel well more than anything else, right,

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Speaker 4: just like if I passed anything on I just like

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Speaker 4: I want my three boys to know have the same certainty.

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Speaker 4: So don't even have to ask themselves the question, right right,

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Speaker 4: that's that would be that's what I want.

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Speaker 3: That's yes, of course. And you know I've come from

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Speaker 3: a divorced family. You know, my sister and I we

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Speaker 3: have some halfs now. But you know, when I was

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Speaker 3: five divorced. Then my stepdad came into my life, and

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Speaker 3: I guess, of course, there was questions of whether my

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Speaker 3: dad had that sort of unconditional love for me. As

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Speaker 3: I've gotten older, I've gotten I've had you know, gained

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Speaker 3: a better relationship with him, and I know his struggles.

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Speaker 3: I know what he went through, you know, passing on

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Speaker 3: these patterns you know from his childhood because his father

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Speaker 3: left him when he was five years old, he didn't

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Speaker 3: have any of the resources to learn to cope with

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Speaker 3: what that meant for him dealing with his feelings. So

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Speaker 3: essentially he was just recreating and mimicking these patterns and

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Speaker 3: I was sort of the victim of it. At the

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Speaker 3: same time, I, at sixteen, was adamant about not repeating

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Speaker 3: that and wanting.

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Speaker 2: To be the greatest dad ever.

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Speaker 3: But it's weird because I do believe that my dad,

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Speaker 3: my real dad, does have that love for me, even

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Speaker 3: though he hasn't shown it, even though we have no

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Speaker 3: real connection as far as a relationship goes.

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Speaker 2: We text and we talk now and again. But I

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Speaker 2: wonder why. I wonder if that's delusional.

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Speaker 4: Do you feel it? You must figure, you must feel it.

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Speaker 3: I do because I understand and I have compassion for

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Speaker 3: what he went through and he I mean, within the

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Speaker 3: texts and sort of his bit of remorse, it feels

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Speaker 3: like it's there. It's just hard for him to sort

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Speaker 3: of truly express, you know, whereas my stepdad has created

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Speaker 3: that for me, has given me that love from a male,

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Speaker 3: you know, from a father, which is what I consider him.

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Speaker 3: But I guess I wonder the question is does it

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Speaker 3: matter where it comes from, if it's biological love or

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Speaker 3: if it's stepfather love.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think that the answer is probably

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Speaker 4: it's easiest and most ideal if it comes from your

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Speaker 4: biological father. Right now, that's just that's because he's probably

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Speaker 4: the one who's most likely to be there and be around.

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Speaker 4: But the evidence that I've looked at suggests that what

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Speaker 4: really matters is that you feel it from someone and

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Speaker 4: that you can. I mean, there's a reason why we

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Speaker 4: use the term father figure quite frequently. How often have

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Speaker 4: you heard anyone say mother figure? She was a real

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Speaker 4: mother figure to me. That's not a very commonly used phrase,

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Speaker 4: but people say he was a father figure to me.

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Speaker 4: And what I think that means is that to some extent,

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Speaker 4: it's that sense of social fathering whatever it can be

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Speaker 4: called and be done by other men, but I think

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Speaker 4: it has to be done, and it has to be

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Speaker 4: done by men, And I think sometimes feel like we

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Speaker 4: get trapped between this world where it's like it has

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Speaker 4: to be a biological father, can only be a biological

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Speaker 4: father and a nuclear family, and won't beside anybody that

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Speaker 4: doesn't do it that way, right, and that people who

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Speaker 4: kind of say we don't need dads anymore. You know,

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Speaker 4: we got it from here. Thanks for the last ten

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Speaker 4: thousand years, guys, we got it from here. And actually

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Speaker 4: there's kind of benches all fathers and says there isn't

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Speaker 4: anything intrinsically valuable about what men bring to the parenting exercise.

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Speaker 4: And that's just flat wrong and very disempowering. And so

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Speaker 4: finding that middle ground, which is saying, yeah, men matter

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Speaker 4: and families come in different shapes and sizes, is I

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Speaker 4: think the truth, and I think the evidence bears that out, Like,

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Speaker 4: dads matter, but dads can be dads that can also

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Speaker 4: be like also get mentors. We've written this piece from

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Speaker 4: one of our board members who've kind of talked about

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Speaker 4: his Scout leader, his principal, and his pastor in his

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Speaker 4: case being the three black men who kind of showed

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Speaker 4: him what it meant to be a man because his

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Speaker 4: own dad wasn't around. So the kid doesn't even have

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Speaker 4: to be one person either. It can be different people

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Speaker 4: in your life building different roles, but it does have

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Speaker 4: to be adults who care for you and love you.

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Speaker 4: And it's you know the phrase it takes a village

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Speaker 4: to raise a child. I think that's true. But the

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Speaker 4: thing I would add is, and some of the villagers

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Speaker 4: have to be men.

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Speaker 3: Why do you think men, for the most part, father's

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Speaker 3: father figures have you know, sort of been looked at

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Speaker 3: as not a throwaway, but just not as important.

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Speaker 4: I think because we have treated bothering itself and that

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Speaker 4: male parenting role as secondary to the female mothering role.

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Speaker 4: And that can lead to either a super progressive view,

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Speaker 4: which means, okay, so we don't need dad at all,

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Speaker 4: thank you, as I said, we got it from here,

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Speaker 4: or be i'd super reactionary one, which is like, absolutely,

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Speaker 4: dad's a completely different than you have to have them

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Speaker 4: in traditional nuclear families. My dad's the head of the household,

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Speaker 4: and mum knows her place and all of that and

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Speaker 4: so and now, of course the rest of us are

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Speaker 4: just trying to make it work in this difficult new

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Speaker 4: world in between those two extremes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, did you like when you got interested

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Speaker 3: in this subject matter which I want to get into,

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Speaker 3: But did you go deep?

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Speaker 2: Did you look back?

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Speaker 3: I mean, was there historical elements to all this, primal

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Speaker 3: elements to it? You know, because the gender roles, I

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Speaker 3: guess have evolved and I are always evolving. We're always evolving,

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Speaker 3: you know, so it probably looked a lot different. One

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years ago than it does today. So

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Speaker 3: did you take all of that into account and to

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Speaker 3: sort of come up with.

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Speaker 2: Your beliefs and what you think about right now?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And again, the trick here is to acknowledge that

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Speaker 4: there are some things that are to use your word,

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Speaker 4: crime more and that some of those will be different

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Speaker 4: on average between men and women, and to allow those

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Speaker 4: to somehow beIN determinative right just to say what to

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Speaker 4: be prescriptive. And because people are so afraid that if

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Speaker 4: you acknowledge any differences that's primal level between say men

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Speaker 4: and women, for mothers and fathers, you're somehow going to

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Speaker 4: use that as a cudule to beat women back down again,

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Speaker 4: right and say, yes, you see, and I understand that fear,

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Speaker 4: and it's a legitimate fear given the long arc of

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Speaker 4: human history. But the trouble is that fear leads people

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Speaker 4: to kind of just not acknowledge those differences, and that

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Speaker 4: makes you sound, honestly just shit crazy. I'm very taken

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Speaker 4: by this book, Boy Marm by Ruth Whipman, And you know,

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Speaker 4: I like it because she criticizes me in the book,

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Speaker 4: but I still love her. But I love her book

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Speaker 4: and she's like, she's like a good feminist who has boys.

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Speaker 4: And then it's led to the conclusion that there are

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Speaker 4: actually some differences that are not just socialized, right, And

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Speaker 4: I think that's just true. And when it comes to

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Speaker 4: sort of fathering, I think there is you know, there's

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Speaker 4: there's just a different role that we bring. Of course,

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Speaker 4: most of what we do is the same, but there

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Speaker 4: are some differences, Like I think dads do bring something

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Speaker 4: a little bit different to the parenting enterprise and so domands.

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Speaker 4: And we can talk about kind of what those are,

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Speaker 4: but I think the kind of point is just to

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Speaker 4: say that has to be possible without that being read

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Speaker 4: as a reactionary mood. Right, It's like, where is he

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Speaker 4: going with this? Is he going in a reactionary or

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Speaker 4: traditional direction? I think that's the trap that too many

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Speaker 4: people have ended up in, which is that we somehow

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Speaker 4: feel that we can't honor the different roles that men

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Speaker 4: and fathers play without that somehow signal that we want

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Speaker 4: to retreat on women. That's just not true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I know, I know.

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Speaker 3: I would always say, you know, when I read a

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Speaker 3: little bit about how you you know, just the toxic

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Speaker 3: masculinity and before I even read anything or knew anything

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Speaker 3: about you, I would always say, you know, the sad

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Speaker 3: thing is that it feels like the word masculine, masculinity

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Speaker 3: has a negative connotation now just generally, you know, because

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Speaker 3: that toxic just you know, even if it's not in

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Speaker 3: front of it, it seems to just sort of, you know,

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Speaker 3: appear in front of.

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Speaker 2: It right place in fly, which is bullshit.

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Speaker 3: You know, it frustrates me. Sometimes masculinity is amazing, it's great.

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Speaker 3: It's a great thing to have, you know.

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Speaker 4: But saying why it's great, it's really hard. And I

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Speaker 4: actually had this experience with a friend recently who told

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Speaker 4: me that her teenage daughter was home with her around

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Speaker 4: the dinner table and this mom, who I know, she

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Speaker 4: just used the word masculinity in some context, right in

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Speaker 4: relation to something else, and her daughter said, do you

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Speaker 4: mean toxic masculinity? And and the mom said, no, no,

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Speaker 4: I just mean masculinity. And the girl, what do you

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Speaker 4: mean masculinity? You mean toxic masculinity? And it she became

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Speaker 4: clear that this sixteen year old had never heard the

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Speaker 4: word masculinity without the term toxic attached to it, which

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Speaker 4: is fair enough, because that's all we've heard for us

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Speaker 4: ten years, So I don't blame, but it actually has

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Speaker 4: led to a place now where you're right, you don't

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Speaker 4: even need the modifier anymore. He Actually, there's good survey

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Speaker 4: evidence now that people just have negative views about masculinity period.

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Speaker 4: And then you wonder why so many of our boys

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Speaker 4: and young men are feeling somewhat lost and somewhat unsure

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Speaker 4: of their place in the world because we've created a

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Speaker 4: negative frame, a deficit based frame. I mean, I was

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Speaker 4: just think, like, I've raised three boys the idea that

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Speaker 4: my goal was to make them not toxic. Can you

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Speaker 4: imagine that? It's like, here's an inspiring vision for you boys.

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Speaker 4: Can you imagine a world where you're not poisonous? I mean,

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Speaker 4: that's that's that's what I Meanwhile, we're saying to the girls,

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Speaker 4: you go, girl, girls on the run. You know, girls,

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Speaker 4: girls are magic, the future is female, you know, etcetera.

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Speaker 4: We've got this massively empowering message, and then we're saying

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Speaker 4: to the boys, don't be toxic. Yeah, really, that's the

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Speaker 4: best we got.

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Speaker 3: How did you come to this? How did you involved

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Speaker 3: with this? Because this is you know, this wasn't your

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Speaker 3: main focus from the beginning of time when you started

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Speaker 3: a career, and you know, how did you come to this?

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Speaker 3: Is it after raising your kids?

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Speaker 4: It's partly that. So what was happening was that in

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Speaker 4: my day job as a think tank scholar, well, I

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Speaker 4: was working on most issues of like education and employment

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Speaker 4: in the inequality basically, and I kept seeing these data

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Speaker 4: points showing a lot of men were doing really badly,

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Speaker 4: Like and I kept seeing these data points.

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Speaker 3: What were some of those data points? By the way,

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Speaker 3: like how would those play outs?

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Speaker 4: I'll give you one. So when the pandemic first hit

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Speaker 4: in the US, the college enrollment rate for men dropped

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Speaker 4: seven times more than for women, seven times more.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And I noticed that in the table from the government

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Speaker 4: kind of release, and then went around I was at

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Speaker 4: the Brookings Institutions think tank then showing it to my

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Speaker 4: colleagues who work on education, saying did you know this?

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Speaker 4: And they're like, no, none of them knew about it,

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Speaker 4: and it's because it was buried in like table two.

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Speaker 4: But I was like, isn't that kind of a story,

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Speaker 4: Like don't you actually didn't really go down for women,

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Speaker 4: but it created for men. Isn't that a story? Why

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Speaker 4: is no one covering this. Why is no one writing

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Speaker 4: about this? And it became clear that it was. No

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Speaker 4: one saw it as their job to draw attention to it,

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Speaker 4: including the people in the Department for Education. But there

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Speaker 4: were no think tanks, there were no scholars, there were

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Speaker 4: no journalists whose job it was to look at that

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Speaker 4: data and say, wow, massive been dropping male college enrollment. Now,

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Speaker 4: if it had been the other way around, there would

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Speaker 4: have been loss of coverage, right, it would have been

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Speaker 4: it would have been wall to wall. And that's because

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Speaker 4: there are lots of people whose job it was to

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Speaker 4: draw attention to it. So, Okay, I'll scratch my head

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Speaker 4: and say, well, this is because no one's job, no

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Speaker 4: one feels to be their job, and in fact, anybody

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Speaker 4: who does draw attention to it runs the risk of

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Speaker 4: being immediately dismissed as arectionary. And then I'd go home

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Speaker 4: and my boys are talking about the fact that their

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Speaker 4: high school had just been on national news for being

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Speaker 4: a cradle of toxic masculinity, like, wait, what happened? And

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Speaker 4: the story was that a boy had made a list

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Speaker 4: of girls that they fancied. And part of my lesson

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Speaker 4: about that is like, we're mistaking toxic masculinity for teenage masculinity, right,

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Speaker 4: and so like, when you're a teenage girl, boy or girl,

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Speaker 4: you might make lists like that, right, and it might

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Speaker 4: be you know, appropriately or inappropriately shared or whatever. But

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Speaker 4: then you grow up and so like, I don't think

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Speaker 4: I should be making lists of that in my the

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Speaker 4: Brookings Institution for it, and I think and I think

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Speaker 4: I would quite rightly be called to account if I did.

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Speaker 4: But that's funny. But I'm but I'm not fifteen. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And so that's the point is that, like, and it's

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Speaker 4: just the the overreaction to those things has actually, I think,

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Speaker 4: ended up really creating this strong counter reaction among a

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Speaker 4: lot of people, especially among a lot of boys and

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Speaker 4: young men. To look, they'll get it. They they want

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Speaker 4: to be good people. They they are not misogynists. They're

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Speaker 4: not coming back to the world where they had this entitlement.

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Speaker 4: They they just don't want to be told that they're

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Speaker 4: the problem, as they guess, and they're kind of they're

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Speaker 4: kind of over it. And I do think that people

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Speaker 4: are kind of realizing that there's a balance to be

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Speaker 4: struck here between correctly holding people to account and basically

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Speaker 4: kind of tarring you know, all teenage boys with the

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Speaker 4: brush of toxic masculine.

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Speaker 2: I think, no, I know, it's it's it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's almost like we've forgotten what humanity is like, we've

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Speaker 3: just forgotten biology, just just straight biology.

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Speaker 4: We've forgotten what it's like to be a teenage boy.

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Speaker 4: I mean, like those of us who were teenage boys

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Speaker 4: can kind of remember sort of why you know, when

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Speaker 4: that when the flood gates of testosterone kind of kind

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Speaker 4: of rushing for you. And and it's super interesting. I

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Speaker 4: find I find it very interesting that some of the

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Speaker 4: people who are most progressive on this issue actually are

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Speaker 4: denying the witness of many trans men who've had like

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Speaker 4: who've had a testosterone shops and kind of someone who

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Speaker 4: then talk about how that changes their psychology, including including

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Speaker 4: with the relations to things like this. And so it's

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Speaker 4: like it's very interesting to me that they, well, on

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Speaker 4: the one hand, we don't allow for that difference in

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Speaker 4: biology in sort of boys and girls in you know,

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Speaker 4: in adolescence. But then we demand, we demand very strong

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Speaker 4: that we pay attention to it when it comes to

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Speaker 4: the trans issues, which which by the way, I support,

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Speaker 4: and so you've got to you can't have it both

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Speaker 4: ways ide biology matters or it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Do you think, do you think because of sort of

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Speaker 3: the landscape that we live in and the culture that

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Speaker 3: we're sort of existing through.

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Speaker 2: Right now, that.

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Speaker 3: Their people are trying to find a balance or trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out what the what the right level is

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Speaker 3: and it's just sort of you know, it's a learning

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Speaker 3: experience that eventually will even out.

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Speaker 4: I think so. I mean, I'm optimistic. I think that

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Speaker 4: there's because young people are figuring with out. And what

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Speaker 4: I see among young men in particular is that they

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Speaker 4: remain as committed as ever to gender equality. Right. They

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Speaker 4: want their sisters and their female friends to have equal opportunity.

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Speaker 4: They do, Yes, there's no change in that, right. But

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Speaker 4: they also have their own issues and their own challenges,

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Speaker 4: and they don't want to be pathologized. They don't want

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Speaker 4: to be told that they're the problem. And they're figuring

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Speaker 4: it out, they're finding ways through this. It's messy. I

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Speaker 4: actually think it's middle aged adults imposing their own their

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Speaker 4: own ideological views from left and right that's causing the problem.

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Speaker 4: I think most people are just in good faith trying

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Speaker 4: to figure it out. So, for example, there's recent evidence

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Speaker 4: that kind of Bothers are doing more, you know, around

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Speaker 4: more looking after kids. Right, every year, it just goes up.

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Speaker 4: And that went up among Republican families just as much

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Speaker 4: as Democrat families. There's no division. So quietly men and

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Speaker 4: women are just figuring this out in their actual family lives,

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Speaker 4: and every family is going to be different. But like

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Speaker 4: we're is doing it. And meanwhile, you've got the culture

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Speaker 4: warriors of like left and right, like urging this to

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Speaker 4: the barricades and persuading young women that their problem is

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Speaker 4: young men, and persuading young men that their problem is

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Speaker 4: young women, when in fact they both face similar problems,

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Speaker 4: which is how to buy a house, get a job,

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Speaker 4: you know, find someone to raise a family with, make

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Speaker 4: a living, raise kids, and be happy. Right, that's actually

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Speaker 4: what people want.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm yeah yeah. I mean, so when you had

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Speaker 3: this incident with your son, was that sort of the

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Speaker 3: impetus for you to say, you know what, let me

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Speaker 3: look deeper into this, let me actually make this a

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Speaker 3: part of my life, my research, my next book.

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Speaker 4: No, I mean I was already on the path towards that.

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Speaker 4: But it did help, it did, but it did help

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Speaker 4: me with my It did what it did do? Was it?

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Speaker 4: It hardened my resolve to write about this issue of

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Speaker 4: toxic masculinity and how the progressive left has made a

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Speaker 4: series of errors on this issue over the last ten years.

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Speaker 4: I then have equal criticism for those on the right,

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Speaker 4: of course, but like I was just like, because here's

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Speaker 4: what I felt was like, privately, most people just like,

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Speaker 4: are you kidding me with this? Really? But publicly no

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Speaker 4: one was willing to say that. And so what it

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Speaker 4: came to realize was that there are a lot of

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Speaker 4: people worried about their sons thinking that some of this

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Speaker 4: stuff was actually damaging to their son. Is that we

409
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Speaker 4: weren't telling a good story, and they were all thinking

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Speaker 4: this privately and talking about it, but no one was

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Speaker 4: really wantingsically in a positive way, and so that actually

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Speaker 4: leave me. So the honest version of this story is

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Speaker 4: that as I became determined to write about this, every

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Speaker 4: single colleague lined up to tell me not to, and

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Speaker 4: every single every single publisher turned me down.

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Speaker 3: Is it because of the potential backlash? I mean, you're

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Speaker 3: literally you're literally proving a theory right there without even

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Speaker 3: writing a word. It's like they don't want to touch

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Speaker 3: it because yeah, no, was.

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Speaker 4: That a particular moment, So it's twenty twenty one, it's

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Speaker 4: like a moment great sensitivity, etc. But also kind of thought,

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Speaker 4: I thought, look, if people like me as boring as

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Speaker 4: I am, like, I have chance, I have research studies.

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Speaker 4: I'm pretty even handed here. I'm very interested in increasing

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Speaker 4: the sheriff technical high schools and improving mental health services

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Speaker 4: and that kind of stuff like boring solutions focused stuff

427
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Speaker 4: like if I can't talk about boys, who's going to

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Speaker 4: and then you can't complain if other people who aren't

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Speaker 4: like that are talking about it. And actually, one of

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Speaker 4: the sound bites from my new think tank, so I

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Speaker 4: create a new think tank, the American Institute for Boys and.

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Speaker 2: Men's Yeah, I want to talk about that. Very cool.

433
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 4: One of our internal mottos is keep it boring. And

434
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 4: my son overheard me saying that one day and he said, well,

435
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 4: you're the man for that job. Down by praise. I said,

436
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 4: I'm trying to keep this boring. I'm trying to make

437
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 4: this boring. I actually want there to be just solutions

438
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 4: rather than culture war stuff.

439
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and when you created this think tank, you know,

440
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 3: how did that come about?

441
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 2: And was it a difficult thing?

442
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: To start, were people a little bit hesitant to become

443
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 3: a part of it because of you know, what you

444
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 3: were talking about a little bit.

445
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 4: I mean, by then I'd broken some of the ground

446
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 4: with the book, and so I think the tide was

447
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 4: moving a little bit. And honestly, I just think the

448
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 4: stuff I did like in the book, and you're very

449
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: kind about it, but I think all I did was

450
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 4: just sort of state facts.

451
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: You know.

452
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 4: All I did was sort of say to people, you

453
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 4: know that thing you're seeing and feeling about how boys

454
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 4: and men are doing, you're right and you're not alone.

455
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 4: And here's the data to prove it right. And so

456
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: all it did was really correct mission space to say ah.

457
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 4: And I think the relief that people had, which is like, oh,

458
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 4: thank god, we can actually you mean, we can talk

459
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 4: about this. I didn't know we could talk about this,

460
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 4: but this risk boring Brookings guy talking about it, so

461
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 4: it must be safe to talk about it now. And

462
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: so in a way, like I kind of diffused it

463
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 4: a little bit, I think precisely through that exercise. But yeah,

464
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 4: even then it was a bit difficult to persuade people initially,

465
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 4: not so much actually got funding, but to come and

466
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 4: work for me, partly because it's a new organization and

467
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 4: it's a bit of uncertainty, but also, yeah, there's still

468
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 4: this sort of men's rights feel to it. Even now

469
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 4: when you say I work for the American Institute for

470
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 4: Boys and Men, people they go, are you the ones

471
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 4: that hate women? And no, we're not the ones that

472
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 4: hate women. But the truth is, this is back to

473
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 4: where we were a minute ago. Where is that unless

474
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 4: someone is waking up every day doing the research, looking

475
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 4: at the data. Like to come back to the example

476
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 4: I had before, and I'll give you one other example,

477
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 4: like there was a sevenfold difference in college enrollment, but

478
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 4: also we saw a huge increase in suicide rates among

479
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 4: young men.

480
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

481
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 4: Right, so the suicide rate is four times higher among

482
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 4: men and boys of all ages and women. But between

483
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 4: twenty ten and twenty twenty three, among young men aged

484
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 4: under thirty, that rate has risen by a third. And again,

485
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,959
Speaker 4: the CDC put back data out and nobody covered it.

486
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 4: Nobody analyzed it, no one did press rases on it.

487
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 4: No one was like, it was no one's job to say,

488
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 4: WHOA did you see that the male suicide rate? We're

489
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 4: not because there was no American Institute for boys and men, Right,

490
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 4: And so unless it's someone's job to be noticing this

491
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 4: stuff and drawing attention to it, then we can hardly

492
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 4: be surprised if people don't know about it. And so

493
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 4: I just or drew inspiration from the many women's organizations

494
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 4: to do a really good job of drawing attention to

495
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 4: the issues facing women and girls, including during the pandemic

496
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 4: by the way, and just said, okay, that's great. I

497
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 4: love that work. But if we don't have similar institutions

498
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 4: doing the same for boys and men, there were always

499
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: going to get an asymmetry in our awareness of what's

500
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 4: going on, and that asymmetry creates a lack of awareness.

501
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 4: But when the problems are real in real people's lives

502
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 4: but are not being talked about, that creates a dangerous vacuum.

503
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 4: And so the idea of the institute is to just

504
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 4: build that vacuum.

505
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: Yes, amazing, And then what are we looking for? What

506
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 3: are some of these sort of feelings that they're having

507
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 3: where they're maybe don't feel worthy or they have lack

508
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 3: of self love. And then the age group can I'm

509
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 3: curious about as well, you know, are that when are

510
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: we most susceptible and how long does that continue? Can

511
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: you be seventy five years old and still feel less? Then?

512
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah? And in facts, just to stay on suicide

513
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 4: statistic for a minute, like the gap in suicide race

514
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 4: among the over eighty five, you know, seventy five is

515
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 4: the biggest of all. Well fold. I think that the

516
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 4: connective tissue here is that sense of being needed, knowing

517
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 4: that you're wanted and having a role to play. And

518
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: so I think the thing that everyone needs is to

519
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: know that they're needed. I think we all need to

520
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: be needed, right, we know that, Like I'm sure like

521
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 4: for you to know that your sons need you, that

522
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 4: your wife needs you, that your colleagues need you, that

523
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 4: your community needs you, that the you know, civic group,

524
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 4: church group, whatever needs you to show up on Saturday

525
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 4: to do that thing right. Actually, that sense of being needed,

526
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 4: I think is the core of mental health. And it's

527
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 4: why when you look at and Fiona Shanda, the researcher

528
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 4: looked at what are the words that men use to

529
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 4: describe themselves before they take their own lives and the

530
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 4: two most commonly used words were worthless and useless. And

531
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 4: so I think what happens is if we're not careful,

532
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 4: we send a message to men and especially young men,

533
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 4: that we're not sure we need you. Like we needed

534
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 4: your dad to be the bread women, right, we needed

535
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 4: your granddad to be the to be the industrial worker.

536
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: Whatever.

537
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: But now it's a new world, right, forty percent of

538
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 4: the breadwinners a woman, and we've moved away from an

539
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 4: industrial economy. Thankfully there's pure wars to fight now. So

540
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 4: I'm not sure we need you to go to war?

541
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 4: Do we need you? What are you necessary for? Like

542
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 4: more in Endowed out a book with the funny title

543
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 4: are Men Necessary? But actually behind that it's the real

544
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 4: question that every culture has to answer, which is why

545
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 4: are men necessary? Why do we need men? Not despite

546
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 4: being men, but because they'm men? And the result of

547
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 4: that sense of just detachment, disconnectional. So I'll give you

548
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: a stat like, among men age twenty to twenty four,

549
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 4: a tenth of them, ten percent of them are not

550
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 4: in school or in work. Right, they're not earning or learning.

551
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 4: We don't really know what they're doing. Well, that's like,

552
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 4: that's the decimation of a generation. And so we can't

553
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 4: like those young men are in real danger, I think,

554
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 4: And to back to your original question. The second part

555
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 4: of your question is that I think that those lateeen

556
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 4: adolescent years into the twenties, like if you get if

557
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 4: you get the year sixteen to fifteen to twenty five

558
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: roughly rise, and you lock into a job, you lock

559
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 4: into a sense of purpose, you lock into a trajectory,

560
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 4: then I think your chances are pretty good. But also

561
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 4: that's where we lose a lot of young men too.

562
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think men are also emotionally evolving too. A

563
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: vulnerability now is seen as more of a superpower than

564
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 3: it is, you know, something that is you know, looked

565
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 3: at as weak, and we associate our sense of well

566
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: being with you know, providing and with a job and

567
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: all of those sort of tactile things. When when we

568
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 3: can be needed for emotional things now, you know, we

569
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: can be needed for a shoulder or wisdom or something

570
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: rather than just sort of that masculine male role that

571
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: we're so used to, you know. So it's almost like

572
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: if you can get in touch with sort of who

573
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 3: you are and be okay with how your emotions and

574
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 3: your vulnerability and the way you feel, you can provide

575
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: in a different way.

576
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 4: So that's your right. I love the way you put

577
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 4: that provide in a different way, you can be providing

578
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 4: something else. I mean, actually one of the one of

579
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 4: the tests in back to your inner question about historically,

580
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 4: like I was really looking into the like anthropology and

581
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 4: h history and evolutionary psychology around like masculinity, and the

582
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 4: consensus really was that in most societies, the boy becomes

583
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,719
Speaker 4: a man when he produces more than he needs for

584
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 4: his own survivals. Now, use is more of what more food,

585
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 4: more money, more energy, more love. But in a sense

586
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 4: like you're generating a surplus, right, you're actually your generative.

587
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: You're producing more. Now of course that's true women too,

588
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 4: But in the case of women, because they actually reproduce

589
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 4: for it, they do they do the you know, the

590
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: great give birth to babies. Right, their generativity, the way

591
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 4: that they're contributing is like much more obvious and much

592
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 4: more in a sense biologically fixed, where for men it

593
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 4: has to be more social, it's more cultural. And so

594
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 4: actually it's like you're providing more than you get, you were,

595
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 4: than you need for yourself. That's what that's what it

596
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 4: means to be a man in most cultures, and that's

597
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 4: what most rights of passage. You have also been about

598
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 4: which is like, Okay, now you're going to generate more

599
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 4: than you need for yourself because the tribe needs you

600
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 4: to generate more. So it's just that in you know,

601
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, in an urban environment, in an advanced economy,

602
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 4: that's going to look very different to how it looked

603
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: even one hundred years ago, certainly five hundred years ago,

604
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 4: and certainly five thousand years ago. Right, that's going to

605
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: be very different for men. And actually that that's why

606
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 4: the male role evolves even more than a female role,

607
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 4: right because actually, because the female role always has this

608
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 4: fixed issue about what we produce the babies, right, it

609
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that women aren't doing a million other things

610
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 4: as well. I don't want to be misunderstood.

611
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: Of course, for men.

612
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 4: It's for men, it's always a little bit more constructed.

613
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 4: It's always a little bit more Okay. So what does

614
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 4: it mean to be a protector and a provider today, Oliver,

615
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 4: Because it's not going to look the same as it

616
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 4: did one hundred years ago. It might be protecting your

617
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 4: kids from some of the online dangers by understanding their

618
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 4: online life, playing video games with them, teaching them how

619
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: to navigate the online world. In a way that actually,

620
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 4: you know, gets the benefits of that world, but also

621
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: makes them aware of some of the dangers of that

622
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 4: online world too. That's more helpful now, and teaching them

623
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 4: how to fire a lion right or bo or bow

624
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 4: or bow hunt an el right, actually being able to

625
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 4: navigate reddick is more important than shining.

626
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: Raining again raising boys.

627
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 3: I do have a little girl as well, But you know,

628
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: I it's almost like I've worked purely off of instinct,

629
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: doing the best that you can. I always say, it's

630
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: not if you're fucking them up, it's to what degree

631
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: you are, because we're we just don't you know, we're

632
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 3: trying our best. I have a certain way of doing things.

633
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: I remember what it's like, kind of like what we

634
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 3: just talked about a little bit ago, what it was

635
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: like to be fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. So I don't have

636
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: that hypocrisy now do I want to steer them away

637
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: maybe from some of the things that I got into. Well,

638
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 3: I want to give them stories now. Whether they revere

639
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 3: those stories or think or use it as a cautionary tale,

640
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. Sometimes you're like, yeah, but Dad, when

641
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: you told me that you did this, this and that,

642
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: like I'm like, well, no, no, no, that wasn't supposed to

643
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 3: be like, oh, you go ahead and do that. It

644
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: was not encouragement, you know, but it's it's tough because

645
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: you think you're doing a good job, but you just

646
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: you don't really know. And I guess your boys are

647
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: older now, So do you see the proof in the

648
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: pudding sort of later on in life when they have to,

649
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 3: you know, be on their own and do their own thing.

650
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like to think so. I mean the thing

651
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: is that, like the two the two things that I've

652
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 4: wanted them to be are kind Yeah, My kindness is everything,

653
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 4: and I hope that they've got that. And also to

654
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: have what my mother would call coil because my mother's

655
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 4: Welsh and the Welsh's her first language. And so this

656
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 4: is a word I heard quite a lot growing up

657
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 4: is oil h y w l. And what it basically

658
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: means is the literal translations like the wind in your sales,

659
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 4: having agency probably the best translation into American English or

660
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 4: something like the mode joke, right, But it's like having

661
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 4: a having like being under your own steam, having your

662
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 4: own you know, being on a mission, being under your

663
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 4: like having purpose, trajectory direction, right, And so for me,

664
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 4: there's a combination of kind of kindness and coil is

665
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 4: really what it's about. Now, how that ends up, I

666
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 4: just don't know. So one of my son's works in

667
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 4: digital marketing, whatever that is. I mean, I sort of

668
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 4: really do know, right, another another one is a fifth

669
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 4: grade teacher in Baltimore City, And the other one we

670
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: don't know what he's going to do yet. But I

671
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 4: will say that I've had this sense of agency. And

672
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 4: I'll give you one of my proudest moments as a

673
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 4: father was that I used to like, if I'm on

674
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 4: a train or a bus or something like that, and

675
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 4: there's someone who needs a seat, like an elderly person

676
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 4: or a pregnant person or something like that, and there

677
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 4: are and there are young men sitting down. I always

678
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 4: tell them together. I always say it was so nice

679
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 4: to say, guys, who here? I was nice? Who here

680
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 4: wants to give up their seat? Because I think this

681
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 4: person would want to hit I always, I always comment.

682
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 4: And then my son's growing up, it would be with

683
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 4: me and they would just be mortified, so embarrassed. If

684
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 4: my dad can, Dad can stop doing it? Like there

685
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 4: an these people looking down the phones and like the

686
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 4: dad stopped doing that, right, so embarrassing, and I'm like, no,

687
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 4: I'm not going to stop doing that because these guys

688
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 4: should give up their fucking seat, right and and someone

689
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 4: someone needs to If they're not doing it automatically, then

690
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm going to tell them how to do

691
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: it right.

692
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

693
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 4: Anyway, I'm I'm on a I'm on a train with

694
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 4: my middle son, who's probably the one who was most

695
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 4: embarrassed by me when I was doing a little son.

696
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 4: I don't know what it is like two three years ago. Now,

697
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 4: it's very busy. We're standing up. There's a bunch of

698
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: guys sitting down. This elderly lady gets on my son says, hey, guys,

699
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 4: who's going to give up their seat? I was like,

700
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 4: my work here is.

701
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 3: I feel that right now too. I love that stuff

702
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: because the pride, the pride that you have for your children,

703
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 3: there's nothing like that. And when you are able to

704
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: sort of see that, and it wasn't it wasn't a lesson.

705
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: It was just imprinted upon them from who you were

706
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: and who you are. And to know that they're actually watching,

707
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 3: because sometimes you think, oh, they don't give a shit

708
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: about me. My oldest is eighteen, and he's like, whoa dad, Like,

709
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 3: you know, he's turned He used to cuddle all the

710
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 3: time and now he's turned into sort of that teenager

711
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: who just doesn't want to do anything. You know, But

712
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: you when you when I watch him mimicking some of

713
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: the things that I do and say and act, You're like, oh,

714
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: he's listening. He's still in there.

715
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 4: He's listening always, And they notice everything. And I think

716
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 4: that the lesson for me is that it's believe their eyes,

717
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 4: not their ears. And this has to be show not tell. Right.

718
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 4: You can have discuss about kindness and how it's supposed

719
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 4: to be and how men should behave towards women and

720
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 4: how you should be in the world. In the end,

721
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 4: that's kind of irrelevant. What actually matters is how do

722
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 4: they see you relating to them?

723
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: Mum?

724
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 4: How do they see you relating to people in the street.

725
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 4: How do they see you like being in the world.

726
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 4: And look, we're going to suck it up a lot, right,

727
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 4: and so, but it's a long arp. It's on the

728
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 4: it's on the average, and they notice everything. Let it

729
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 4: give you one example from my own life, which is

730
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 4: like I went through this phase where my youngest son

731
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 4: is a complete technique and his favorite thing to do

732
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 4: on a Saturday was to go to this place called Microcenter,

733
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 4: which is this vast warehouse sized place just filled with

734
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 4: like technology stuff like bits of computer and stuff. I

735
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 4: don't know, you still love going there. It's completely windowless,

736
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 4: ghastly plows as far as I'm concerned, like full of

737
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 4: full of, full of nerves. And he would always be

738
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 4: every Saturday. I'd be on a sofa and be like, Dad,

739
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 4: can you say to my micro Center?

740
00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 5: Yeah?

741
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 4: And it got to the where's old enough? And I'm like, no,

742
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 4: you can play the bus or I'll play for an uber.

743
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 4: I'm not getting off. I'm not I'm not going. I'm

744
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 4: not going to drive you twenty minutes to that ghastly

745
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 4: place in the walk record and then I and then

746
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 4: and then something changed in my own life actually was

747
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 4: partly involved with some religious activities, but training my own

748
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 4: life where I actually kind of thought, you know what,

749
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 4: my kids arething around for that long, how how long

750
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 4: are they actually going to be asking me to go

751
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 4: do something with them? And I made it. I made

752
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 4: a decision, like most of the times when he asks me,

753
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 4: Dad going to go to micro Center. I'm going to

754
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: say yes, even if in the moment I'm going to

755
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 4: be like, yeah, that leaves dad alone. Dad wants to

756
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 4: take coffee, and like, watch that I did it.

757
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: And do you know what?

758
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 4: A couple of months later, and I didn't tell him

759
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 4: anything anybody that I was doing so just made it consciously.

760
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 4: But a couple of months later he said, really noticed

761
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: that that since you did that thing, you've been taking

762
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 4: me to micro Center a lot more often. Wow, they

763
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 4: noticed everything. Yeah, everything.

764
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 3: No, I know, I know, I know, and and and

765
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 3: I act to dardingly. You know, I do the same thing.

766
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: Like it's Sunday, I'm watching football, Dad, we hit golf

767
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: balls because my kids are now obsessed with golf and

768
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: I was a very good golfer and the last thing

769
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 3: I want to fucking do is get up off the

770
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 3: couch on a Sunday and go hit golf balls. But

771
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, you know, let's go. Yeah, because I

772
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: know they're noticing. I know they're taking it in. They

773
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: don't say thank you, they don't think it's none of that.

774
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: But I know that when they are forty years old,

775
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, Dad got off that he did.

776
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: Shit with us. He was there for us, you know,

777
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: the sort of the sacrifice.

778
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 4: Sacrifice I know, it's like I did it. And of

779
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 4: course as kids, you're like narcissistic jerks. Basically, that's back

780
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 4: to the point about being a teenager. But I have

781
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: the sustressed my own my own dad. Where I was sixteen,

782
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 4: I was really happy at my school, and my dad

783
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 4: got a job on the other side of the country,

784
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 4: and well we should, you know, really we shouldn't move.

785
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: But I was so happy in the school that they said, look,

786
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 4: let's just not move. And he's got two more years

787
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 4: to go. So what that meant was that my dad

788
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 4: got up at like five am every Monday morning and

789
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: drove across the country. I didn't come home Friday. You

790
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 4: had to stay over there Friday, I come home and

791
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 4: kind of Friday night. We did that for two years

792
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 4: so that I could stay, so that I could stay

793
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 4: in that school. I didn't I didn't even notice. I

794
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 4: was probably vaguely aware that dad wasn't around as much.

795
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 4: I was just so I was so wrapped up in

796
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 4: my own stuff. I didn't know that's why he'd done it,

797
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 4: and he didn't. And the point is he didn't. He

798
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 4: didn't tell me. That's why he'd done it, right, he

799
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 4: didn't say I'm doing this for you or whatever. I

800
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 4: never knew. I never knew, right, And then I realized,

801
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 4: like I said, hey, Dad, why doesn't do that thing

802
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 4: where you kept driving? And said, well, because we wanted

803
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 4: to keep you in that school because you were so

804
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 4: happy there. I was like, you drove across the country,

805
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 4: you know, every week. And I said, really, why did

806
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 4: you do that? And he said, because.

807
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: It's what you do.

808
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 4: Never forgotten that, Yeah, what is because it's what you're doing.

809
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: It's it's such a it's such a simple statement, but's

810
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 3: so true.

811
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 2: It is just what you do.

812
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 4: That's what you do.

813
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting just thinking thinking back on what you

814
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 3: said about sort of you know, watching and not being told,

815
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 3: but just sort of that imprinting. There's a flip side

816
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 3: to that too, because when you don't, when you grow

817
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 3: up in not such a great place, I think you

818
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 3: sometimes you have a choice. Sometimes it's just so ingrained

819
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: that you're going to repeat some of these patterns. But

820
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 3: and I can relate this to my own life, where

821
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 3: you know, I understand my dad's hang ups. I know

822
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: that he came from a place of divorce as well.

823
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: At the same time, I didn't want to be him.

824
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 3: So it was a switch where I said, I'm going

825
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 3: to be better, you know, I'm going to be different,

826
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: rather than this is how you love. You know what

827
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: I mean, you love by not being there, you know.

828
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 3: And then my stepdad came in and he was an

829
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: incredible man for me and taught me what it was

830
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: like to be a man, taught me independence. I was

831
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 3: a mama's boy. I was afraid of my own shadow,

832
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: and he gave me some tough love in the best way,

833
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: which is sort of just letting me be alone in

834
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: the woods sometimes in Colorado and letting me panic essentially,

835
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: and then coming out from behind a tree and saying, Oliver, Hey,

836
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: you're okay, Now get us home. We're on ATVs and

837
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 3: little motorcycles, and I was able to get myself home,

838
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 3: and he's like, you know, boom, there's a lesson for you.

839
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 3: At the same time, he was my biological dad, and

840
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 3: so you know, a lot, there's a lot that I

841
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 3: have of Kurt, but there's a lot that I have

842
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 3: just sort of sort of built on my own through

843
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 3: trial and error and through, you know, sort of cherry

844
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: picking the things that I like and then throwing away

845
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: the things that I don't. I mean, does that sort

846
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 3: of happen Probably even with a good family, with you,

847
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 3: with me, with good dads, I mean it's like, yeah,

848
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 3: dad's great there, but this I don't really like.

849
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's right. I like that imprinting. I

850
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 4: think that's right. I think you're imprinted via the culture

851
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 4: around you. And so when you're figuring out how to

852
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 4: be in the world today and how to be a

853
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 4: man today, then you're just drawing that inspiration from from

854
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 4: the men around you and the men in your life.

855
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 4: And I don't think we have we're consciously able to

856
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 4: sort of choose necessarily what lessons like if it's by definitely,

857
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 4: if it's being imprinted on you, it's almost it's a

858
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: subconscious Its a subconscious thing, right, And that's why, like,

859
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 4: that's why it's just over time, like a guy behaving

860
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 4: like that, you're just showing, not telling. It has this

861
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 4: kind of cumulative effect, right. It's not a curriculum for

862
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 4: masculinity or how to be a man in the world.

863
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 4: It's a behavior that's learned and observed and you said

864
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 4: at the beginning that can be from one man, it

865
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 4: can be from other men, can be from a bunch

866
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 4: of men. I mean again, just row my experiences, like

867
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 4: my middle son, who really struggled at school and then

868
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 4: in fact he went to university, but he went back

869
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 4: to the UK. You wanted to go to Cardiff University

870
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 4: because that's where my parents lived, and he wanted to

871
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 4: be near his grandparents. And he told me one day

872
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 4: he was, you know, when he was struggling through college

873
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: and he struggled with some mental health issues, and he

874
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 4: said he could actually see on his walk from his

875
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 4: dorm room to the to the college, he could see

876
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 4: the tower of the hospital next to my parents' house.

877
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: He just looked north and see it. There was a

878
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 4: certain point in the wars and if I'm walking there

879
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 4: and I'm feeling a bit down, I look them north

880
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 4: and I can see that tower and I know that

881
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 4: that's where Grandpa is and if I need him, he'll come.

882
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 4: And that helped me get through the day. And actually

883
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 4: he very rarely had to draw on them. He'd go

884
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 4: for Sunday lunch or whatever they said, just knowing that

885
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 4: grandfather was there, and they did help him, and I

886
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 4: was like, you know, sometimes it doesn't just take more

887
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 4: than one man in one generation. Sometimes it takes two generations.

888
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 4: My father has done a huge amount as the grandfather

889
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 4: to my sons and especially to that son. And I

890
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 4: don't know if there was just something in my relationship

891
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 4: with him or some timing, whatever, it just meant that

892
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 4: my dad was able to kind of build something else

893
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 4: complimentary around it. He also taught me how to ride

894
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 4: a bike when they're on vacation, wants and and so,

895
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: and I think as a dad, part of the challenge

896
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 4: actually is to allow that to happen, allow the space

897
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 4: for other men like Uncle Simon, like my dad, like

898
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 4: a bunch of other people in my kids and lives,

899
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 4: some of their coaches, their colleagues, one of their bosses,

900
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 4: to just actually also play that role, not be not

901
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: be territorial about that right do our thing, but recognize that,

902
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 4: you know what, as I said earlier, it's going to

903
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: take a village. And like some of the other guys

904
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 4: in my kids' lives have definitely done a better job.

905
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 4: And sometimes actually they can't. There's stuff that they can

906
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 4: talk to my friends about that they can't talk to me.

907
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 5: About Yeah, well, what's what's been your response with just

908
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 5: women overall, just generally, you know, if.

909
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 4: They're moms of boys, I would say that it's mostly

910
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 4: pretty positive. Like the boy moms are a big force

911
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,919
Speaker 4: I think right now in our culture. They're like very

912
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 4: grateful in some ways and interested and worried and happy

913
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 4: that we're talking about it. And interestingly, if we've younger women,

914
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 4: even though they don't have kids, like, they're typically quite

915
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 4: open to it because they're seeing it in their brothers

916
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 4: and their friends some of these kinds of issues and struggles. Actually,

917
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 4: I think the toughest thing is with women who are

918
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 4: like middle aged and older have a visceral resistance to

919
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,399
Speaker 4: this discussion. And I completely understand why, and I share

920
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 4: it a little bit too, which is like, are you

921
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 4: kidding me? Like we've only just broken some of these

922
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 4: glass ceilings, and we still, by the way, have got

923
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 4: some still to break. And do you know what I've

924
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 4: had to go through to get where I am now?

925
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 4: And now you want to turn back to boys and men?

926
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 4: And so actually I get that there's a generational thing

927
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 4: here where, like I think for women who've really had

928
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 4: to kind of leave piles of broken glass behind them

929
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 4: as they've broken glass ceilings to suddenly say to them, oh, now,

930
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 4: boys and men, that's hard.

931
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 3: And I get that, Yeah, both can happen at the

932
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: same time as you've said yes, and they get that.

933
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 4: But there is there is an initial kind of visceral

934
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 4: reaction to it, which I understand. And you have to

935
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 4: be reassuring that that's not the goal here to go

936
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: back and you can do two things at once. It's

937
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 4: not a zero sum game, but people I understand why

938
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 4: people fel.

939
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: In fact, it's really interesting that sort of reactionary, that

940
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 3: the reactionary feeling of that pullback when you talk about,

941
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: you know, the mental health and the well being of

942
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,959
Speaker 3: men and boys and wanting to champions something like that.

943
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: It's strange that we've been almost conditioned, you know, to

944
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 3: be like, oh wait a minute, is that is that okay?

945
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: When in reality what's wrong? I mean, it's it's it's

946
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: a necessity. It's their human beings who are dealing with

947
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: their own ship.

948
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah.

949
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 4: But I think it is because of this fear of

950
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 4: where where it might lead. And I think, particularly in

951
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 4: our current culture, there's a lot of fear that you know,

952
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 4: there's some online misogyny, there's some obviously very famous figures online,

953
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 4: et cetera. And so there's a kind of fear that

954
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 4: there's this growing backlash against women right and the young

955
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 4: men are being young men are being recruited to a

956
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 4: misogynist cause. And I think that is largely to not happening,

957
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 4: but I can see why people might fear it happening.

958
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 4: And it feels sort of women like that their gains

959
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 4: are quite fragile and that we could end up going backwards,

960
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 4: and you can totally understand why some of them would

961
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 4: feel that. I don't think it's true, but I think

962
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 4: we have to really hold that thought in our minds

963
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 4: whenever we're talking about this, which is like if we

964
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 4: if we're going to rise together, we actually kind of

965
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 4: need both men and women to feel invested in the

966
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 4: well being of each other and get past that zero

967
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 4: or something. And that means you do have to take

968
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 4: seriously the arguments that women will make about this new

969
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: focus on boys and men and to emphasize that we

970
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 4: have to do both. It's not good for women if

971
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 4: men are struggling or vice versa. But you you have

972
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 4: to get to that point.

973
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 3: Of course, I mean women benefit from healthy men. I mean,

974
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 3: and men benefit from healthy women. Yeah, exactly, say you.

975
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 4: Say it like that. It sounds so simple and I

976
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 4: think it's true. But it does. It does, But it

977
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 4: can get weaponized. That's the problem this work. This work

978
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 4: can get weaponized by peop or who do have quite

979
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 4: a reactionary gender. So we have to be aware of

980
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 4: aware of that, but not seed the ground as a result.

981
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 4: Like I don't think us running silent on it is

982
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 4: a good idea either.

983
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but just what do we do? You know, how

984
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: do we implement these things into our everyday life? I mean,

985
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: I know, when we parent our boys, we're sort of

986
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: working off of instinct or books if people read books,

987
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 3: or however they're doing it. But you know, how do

988
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 3: we how do we how do we put this into practice?

989
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean at a personal level. You're not asking

990
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 4: me to do policy.

991
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 3: On our personal levels.

992
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: Thrown me a policy.

993
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I want to do, But I feel

994
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 4: I feel you Look, I think that you've said it

995
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 4: a couple of times now, and I really want to

996
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 4: underline it, which is trusting her instincts, especially as a dad, Like, actually,

997
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 4: there are ways that kind of gods interact with their

998
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 4: kids that are just on the average a little bit different, right,

999
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 4: So they're a little bit more like to help kids

1000
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 4: take risks and to manage those risks. They are a

1001
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 4: little bit more like to be doing through play, especially

1002
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 4: a little bit sometimes like competitive play, fun competitive play,

1003
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 4: to actually be helping kids negotiate the outside world. That

1004
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 4: seems to be true, especially when adolescents. So your kids

1005
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 4: being the HDR now means that like you're you're sort

1006
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 4: of in some ways at a maximum impact right when

1007
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 4: your kids outcomes, right, not just boys but girls too.

1008
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 4: But I do think that like a lot of dads

1009
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 4: now kind of feel like sort of second rate mums,

1010
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 4: all right, and they kind of they use a maternal

1011
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 4: standard of parenting to judge their own parenting, and that's

1012
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 4: not right. Actually, we do bring some different instincts to

1013
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 4: the party. And so, for example, around the risk taking thing,

1014
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 4: there's very often a creative tension between mums and dads,

1015
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 4: and this, of course it doesn't always go this way,

1016
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 4: but very often it's like get where a dad is

1017
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 4: kind of wanting the kids to take some more risks

1018
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 4: in a careful and thoughtful way, do some more adventure

1019
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 4: stuff like like your stepdad did right as you just

1020
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 4: describe that lovely story of you out in the woods,

1021
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 4: and the mums are a bit all like be careful, yeah,

1022
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 4: And that's a creative tension. If the dads actually end

1023
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 4: up just downgrading their instincts and saying, oh, well, you know,

1024
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 4: mother knows best, then actually end up disempairing themselves and

1025
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: doing to diserve to their kids. So, as a dad especially,

1026
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 4: my message to dad's right now is your instincts are important,

1027
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 4: and they're not exactly the same as the munths, and

1028
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 4: you need to discuss everything and being creative tension with that.

1029
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 4: But if your instinct is that your son or daughter

1030
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 4: should do ex or wise, don't assume that just because

1031
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 4: your wife or partner disagrees with you, that you're wrong.

1032
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: Right.

1033
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 4: A bit of dad energy is a good thing, and

1034
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 4: it's one of the one of the areas I think

1035
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 4: we've lost a bit of ground is that we've actually

1036
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 4: ended up, I think sometimes almost mistrusting our own instincts.

1037
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 4: That's why I'm so happy to say that you've got

1038
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 4: to go with your instincts, because I think we tend

1039
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 4: to trust maternal instincts more than paternal instincts, and that's

1040
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 4: that's a mistake. We do need both and so lean

1041
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 4: into those obviously don't do harm like the toxic masculinity

1042
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: stuff online and they kind of moral panic around the

1043
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 4: online world now, like, don't be the parent who's like,

1044
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 4: I can't believe you're watching that. Slam the laptop now

1045
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 4: at them. I'll give you one example of clothes, which

1046
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 4: is this woman came up to me and said she

1047
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 4: owed me an apology and she wouldn't thank I've never

1048
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 4: met her before, and I said, why so because my

1049
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 4: son watched a video on YouTube and then came to

1050
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 4: me and said, do you know what, mom, Boys and

1051
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 4: men are struggling in lots of ways now too, And

1052
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 4: she said. I lost my temper with him. I said,

1053
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 4: do you what are you watching? I don't want you

1054
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 4: watching this shit online. Do you know what women have

1055
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 4: had to deal with is this is some misogynist stuff

1056
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 4: that I've been reading about, blah blah blah. And he's like, Mom,

1057
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 4: maybe come watch it with me. And it was a video,

1058
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 4: it was my video, it was my big think video.

1059
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 4: And she said, by the end of it, she's in tears,

1060
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 4: she's apologizing to her son and saying, I'm so sorry,

1061
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 4: but I assumed the worst and actually this, this is

1062
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 4: reasonable and interesting. And then they ended up actually said,

1063
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 4: having the best conversation they'd ever had. He was fifteen,

1064
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 4: how he's struggling at school and the struggling with ideas

1065
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 4: of masculinity, and they got into it. And then they

1066
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 4: both came to this event and they came up and

1067
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 4: she kind of apologized to me and thanked me for

1068
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 4: creating that conversation with her son. And so don't assume

1069
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 4: it just because your son's online, that he's turning into

1070
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 4: a misogynist monster. Engage with curiosity, not contempt. It doesn't

1071
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 4: mean you shouldn't be careful, but like engage and also

1072
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 4: for fact to take learn from them. You don't understand

1073
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 4: the internet, right, you don't? They do? They understand it.

1074
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 4: And the idea that you know what's going on on

1075
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 4: the internet is hilarious to that.

1076
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 3: Oh it's a joke, it's a market. I don't know

1077
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 3: what's going on. Yeah, talk to you about it, discuss it.

1078
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 3: So Andrew Tait tried not to mention, but this I

1079
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 3: watched Andrew. I watched Andrew Tait videos with my sons

1080
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 3: and we talked about what they hated, what they didn't like,

1081
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 3: and to be clear, horrible, horrible, misogynist monster, like to be.

1082
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 2: Clear, Oh gosh, yeah, but let's talk about it. Let's

1083
00:53:59,120 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: watch it.

1084
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 4: Let's not the you know, that's let's talk because everyone's

1085
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 4: consuming this. It's it's everywhere, and so like, let's talk

1086
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 4: about it.

1087
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, my kids would fuck with me and they'd be like,

1088
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 3: Dad love Andrew Tate.

1089
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: I love them.

1090
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: He's like, and I'm like, it's like, do you guys

1091
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:14,959
Speaker 3: I mean, and then they.

1092
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 4: Jog that mom.

1093
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're trying to get a reaction from me. I

1094
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: can get it from you fromm.

1095
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1096
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 4: Doing it to wind you on, because guess what, teenagers

1097
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 4: and especially teenage boys, they're a bit transgressive and so

1098
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 4: this is the way and in your case, they're kind

1099
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 4: of they're holding it. But also, like I think a

1100
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 4: lot of teen boys, young men are quite likely to

1101
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 4: go through a phase right now where they're interested in

1102
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 4: those kinds of figures. I think it's the failure of

1103
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 4: mainstream institutions to hold an honest conversation about these issues

1104
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 4: has created the market for people like Andrew Tate. What's interesting,

1105
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 4: but Andrew t is that the demand, not the supply,

1106
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 4: and it's our fault. It is our fault that any

1107
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 4: boys are turning to Andrew Tate. That's not Andrew Tate's well, yes,

1108
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 4: and it's not the boys. It's our all.

1109
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, entirely. Oh my gosh, I know.

1110
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: Well this has been amazing.

1111
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 3: So wait, I want to go where if you want

1112
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 3: to like dig deeper into this, we can you have

1113
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 3: for your think tank?

1114
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 2: You have a website, right, yeah.

1115
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 4: So it's just a AIBM dot org So American Institute

1116
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 4: for Boys and Men dot org. That's where all the

1117
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 4: best research on this issue is to be found.

1118
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, and you can you can deep dive into

1119
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 3: all that on the on the website.

1120
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 4: As promised earlier. It's really boring.

1121
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,399
Speaker 2: Yeah no, but but I know, really boring. But that's

1122
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: sometimes that's the best good stuff.

1123
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 4: That's the good stuff. It's the boring stuff, but serious.

1124
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 4: But this is the truth, is that I made a

1125
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 4: joke about being boring. The issues facing boys and men

1126
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 4: are too serious to be left to the online clowns.

1127
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 4: They have to be addressed by us, by people in

1128
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 4: the media, by people in tanks excessia. We have to

1129
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 4: be doing this work if we don't want to be

1130
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 4: being done by the clowns, and so like, Actually there's

1131
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 4: joking aside, like this is a vocation for me now

1132
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 4: because I've cut really comfortably that neglecting these issues has

1133
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 4: been a big problem and we need to catch up now.

1134
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 4: And we need to make our boys and men in

1135
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 4: our own lives, in our own communities, Like there is

1136
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 4: every guy listening to this knows a boy or a

1137
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 4: young man in their lives who they should text right now, yeah,

1138
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 4: and say how are you doing? And then ask them again, now,

1139
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 4: how are you really doing? Who will benefit from you

1140
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 4: reaching out to them?

1141
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: Right?

1142
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,720
Speaker 4: I guarantee it. And so it's not just about policy,

1143
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 4: it's about like, if you're a guy, you're listening to this,

1144
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 4: I'm telling you, once you've stopped listening to us, call

1145
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 4: that boy, boy or young man in your life, a neighbor,

1146
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 4: a cousin, uncle, call him, see him, help pen. We

1147
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 4: have got to make these boys and men know that

1148
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 4: we see them, that we love them, and that we

1149
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 4: have their backs.

1150
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 3: Amazing, man, this makes me emotional. It's so fucking true.

1151
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: Make make a phone call. There's you know, it's this

1152
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 3: sister connectivity. It's like I'm thinking about you. It's very simple,

1153
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 3: thinking about you, very simple. Yeah, thank you, brother, really fun.

1154
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 3: I appreciate the time.

1155
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 4: And take care of those take care of those boys

1156
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 4: as well.

1157
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 2: I will, I will, all right, all right? Man cheers,

1158
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 2: oh lot.

1159
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 3: What a cool guy, god man dedicating his life to

1160
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 3: the men and the boys. I think it's great, you know,

1161
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 3: I think it's great. I wonder if he listens to

1162
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: boys to men one, if that's his favorite R and

1163
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: B group. I should have asked him that. God damn it, Oliver,

1164
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 3: you should have asked. And you know, it's interesting. I

1165
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 3: love what he said. You know, if this resonated with you,

1166
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 3: call someone, call, call a friend, call a dude, call

1167
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 3: a young cousin, call whoever. It's it's important. Men are important.

1168
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1169
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 3: I know that sounds crazy, and it's it's sort of

1170
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 3: strange that, you know, this idea of making men better

1171
00:57:54,760 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 3: is a negative. We're all humans and we're biologically different.

1172
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 2: We have different.

1173
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: Feelings, you know, than women do. We have a primal

1174
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 3: nature that will always be inside of us. That is different,

1175
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 3: and so why not harness that why not get better.

1176
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 3: It's all about just getting better. So when we hear

1177
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 3: about masculinity, we hear that word, let's not fucking put

1178
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 3: toxic in front of it. Yes, there are toxic masculines.

1179
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 3: Of course, there's toxic femininity. There's toxic everything, but masculinity.

1180
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 3: That word has been bastardized. It seemed to make it

1181
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 3: just negative when really.

1182
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: It's not so anyway, I just that's my thing.

1183
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 4: I love you.

1184
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 3: I'm out