WEBVTT - The Thai Cave Rescue 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.316 Pushkin. It was summer of twenty eighteen in Thailand when 0:00:33.316 --> 0:00:36.316 twelve boys from a soccer team in their coach ventured 0:00:36.356 --> 0:00:39.676 into a local cave to go exploring. The boys were 0:00:39.756 --> 0:00:42.196 deep within the cave when the area was hit by 0:00:42.196 --> 0:00:47.316 a monsoon days earlier than expected. Water began flooding into 0:00:47.316 --> 0:00:50.236 the cave at an alarming rate, and the boys soon 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:54.276 found themselves trapped inside with no way out. The world 0:00:54.356 --> 0:00:57.436 was transfixed as rescuers spent days trying to find the 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.716 boys soccer team, and remarkably they found them two and 0:01:01.796 --> 0:01:04.436 a half miles deep within the cave and stationed together 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:07.236 on a dry hill. But it was one thing to 0:01:07.276 --> 0:01:09.556 find the boys and to send in medical or eating 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:13.116 food to help keep them alive. Getting them out safely, though, 0:01:13.836 --> 0:01:17.756 that was an entirely different matter. Eventually, the rescue team 0:01:17.836 --> 0:01:20.116 came up with a bold and risky plan and they 0:01:20.196 --> 0:01:22.996 shared it with the boys. They were just like, yep, 0:01:23.396 --> 0:01:25.916 get us out of here. And I felt like at 0:01:25.996 --> 0:01:27.876 that point I could have said tomorrow we're coming in. 0:01:27.996 --> 0:01:29.916 There'll be a flying carpet, you'll all sit on it 0:01:30.396 --> 0:01:32.356 and we'll magic you out of the cave, and they 0:01:32.396 --> 0:01:34.516 would have had the same response, because I think after 0:01:34.596 --> 0:01:37.276 two weeks, yeah, I just want to get the hell 0:01:37.316 --> 0:01:39.876 out of there. They just wanted someone to take charge 0:01:39.956 --> 0:01:43.596 and get them out. That's doctor Richard Harris or Harry, 0:01:44.036 --> 0:01:47.716 the Australian doctor, an underwater cave explorer who had to 0:01:47.756 --> 0:01:50.516 swim deep within the flooded cave to try and rescue 0:01:50.516 --> 0:01:54.156 the boys. This is the moment of truth, when this 0:01:54.316 --> 0:01:59.036 whole fanciful idea will actually become reality. And I'm about 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.516 to meet these children who I've heard so much about 0:02:02.596 --> 0:02:05.036 and thought so much about for such a long time, 0:02:05.796 --> 0:02:07.676 and now I'm going to see them face to face, 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:09.076 and I'm going to have to make it to see. 0:02:12.236 --> 0:02:19.236 On today's episode a doctor Heath's an unexpected call. I'm 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:21.796 Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:22.316 --> 0:02:24.556 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:24.836 --> 0:02:43.076 in the face of a big change. By the time 0:02:43.156 --> 0:02:45.716 Harry got to Thailand, the soccer team had been stuck 0:02:45.756 --> 0:02:48.756 in the cave for nearly two weeks and things were 0:02:48.836 --> 0:02:51.916 looking bleak. The inside of the cave was like a 0:02:51.996 --> 0:02:56.196 labyrinth miles long, flooded with murky and turbulent water and 0:02:56.436 --> 0:03:00.356 full of narrow tunnels. One former Thai Navy seal had 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:04.596 already died while navigating the flooded cave. The boys ranged 0:03:04.636 --> 0:03:07.596 in age from eleven to sixteen, and in order to 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:09.316 get out of the cave, they would need to put 0:03:09.396 --> 0:03:13.196 on oxygen mass and swim through highly complex submerge portions 0:03:13.236 --> 0:03:17.156 of the cave. Experts worried that the boy's panic reflexes 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:20.036 would invariably kick in, which would lead them to tear 0:03:20.116 --> 0:03:24.796 off their oxygen mass and potentially drown. Thai government officials 0:03:24.836 --> 0:03:27.476 in the military worked with experts from around the world 0:03:27.596 --> 0:03:30.196 to explore every idea they could come up with to 0:03:30.276 --> 0:03:33.396 save these boys, from trying to pump water out of 0:03:33.396 --> 0:03:35.916 the cave to seeing if they could try to keep 0:03:35.956 --> 0:03:39.836 them alive inside the cave until the monsoon season had passed. 0:03:40.596 --> 0:03:43.236 But for a variety of reasons, these ideas wouldn't work, 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:47.556 and then finally they came up with a plan a 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:51.276 Hail Mary passed to rescue the soccer team. They would 0:03:51.276 --> 0:03:54.196 innesetize the boys, fit them with an oxygen mask, and 0:03:54.276 --> 0:03:57.596 then swim them out while they were fully unconscious. But 0:03:57.716 --> 0:03:59.756 in order for it to work, they needed to find 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:02.396 someone with a specific set of skills to lead the 0:04:02.436 --> 0:04:05.436 rescue mission. They needed to find someone who is an 0:04:05.516 --> 0:04:10.596 expert cave diver and an anthesiologist. They needed my guest today, 0:04:11.036 --> 0:04:15.996 Australian diver and doctor Harry. Harry and I started our 0:04:16.036 --> 0:04:18.716 conversation by talking about how he got involved with the 0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:21.916 Thai cave rescue mission in the first place. Harry had 0:04:21.956 --> 0:04:24.476 been finishing up with a patient in an operating room 0:04:24.516 --> 0:04:27.916 in Australia when he got some texts. They were from 0:04:27.996 --> 0:04:31.236 his friend Rick Stanton, a British cave diver who was 0:04:31.276 --> 0:04:33.636 already on the ground in Thailand trying to help with 0:04:33.716 --> 0:04:36.716 the rescue. So it was about quarter to seven on 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:40.196 that Thursday morning when Rick and I were exchanging texts, 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:44.076 and Rick was very despondent on that morning. He was 0:04:44.156 --> 0:04:50.116 reinforcing his completely pessimistic outlook on that day, as he 0:04:50.236 --> 0:04:53.516 had for several days about the possibility of getting these 0:04:53.596 --> 0:04:56.436 children out. He was just really at the point where 0:04:56.476 --> 0:04:58.276 he felt like the best thing he could do was 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:01.356 leave Thailand because he was so despondent that there was 0:05:01.756 --> 0:05:05.036 zero chance of getting these children out. And then just 0:05:05.196 --> 0:05:06.956 at the end of the text message, he just threw 0:05:07.036 --> 0:05:08.996 in this one line about what do you think about 0:05:09.156 --> 0:05:12.716 sedating the children to bring them out? And I just 0:05:13.356 --> 0:05:15.796 I looked at this message and I did a double 0:05:15.876 --> 0:05:18.476 take because it had never occurred to me that someone 0:05:18.516 --> 0:05:21.116 would come up with an idea so preposterous and so 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:24.476 out of left field. And so that's kind of where 0:05:24.716 --> 0:05:27.356 the conversation finished earlier that morning, and I just replied 0:05:27.396 --> 0:05:30.156 with one mind saying it's out of the question. And 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:34.156 I said, look, it's just a ridiculous idea. But I said, 0:05:34.196 --> 0:05:36.516 if you'd like us to come to Thailand, maybe there's 0:05:36.556 --> 0:05:38.116 something I can do. I just had a sense that 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:40.916 I needed to be there and my skill set was 0:05:41.116 --> 0:05:44.876 important for this rescue, and I said, perhaps I can 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:48.556 swim to the end of the cave provide medical care 0:05:48.636 --> 0:05:51.236 for these children whilst you guys come up with a 0:05:51.316 --> 0:05:54.916 better idea. Basically, I see, and I know you know, 0:05:54.956 --> 0:05:56.596 as far as you knew at the time, only one 0:05:56.636 --> 0:06:00.436 person had ever been under water under anesthesia and survived, right, 0:06:00.516 --> 0:06:04.236 So this was this was an idea that you rejected outright. 0:06:04.716 --> 0:06:08.636 And so tell me, as an experienced medical professional, as 0:06:08.676 --> 0:06:13.276 someone who practices anesthesia, what were the risks associated with 0:06:13.556 --> 0:06:17.716 giving these boys and their coach anesthesia? In the keen environment. Well, 0:06:17.756 --> 0:06:19.236 I don't think you have to be a cave diver 0:06:19.516 --> 0:06:25.116 or an anesthesiologist to realize that submerging an unconscious person 0:06:25.196 --> 0:06:27.356 for three hours and expecting that they're going to still 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:29.916 be alive three hours later, you know, is fraught with peril. 0:06:30.116 --> 0:06:34.716 So I thought that for sure, these kids will flood 0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:37.516 the mask and drown inside their mask at some point 0:06:37.636 --> 0:06:40.876 over that three hour journey. But also I thought, even 0:06:40.916 --> 0:06:44.956 if that doesn't happen, you know, at some stage their 0:06:44.996 --> 0:06:47.876 head will just fall forward and they'll obstruct their airway. 0:06:47.916 --> 0:06:50.036 I mean, anyone who's done a first aid course knows 0:06:50.076 --> 0:06:52.756 that an unconscious person we have to protect their airway 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:55.916 at all costs. And the third thing, I thought, well, 0:06:56.156 --> 0:06:58.396 even if those two things don't happen at some point 0:06:58.436 --> 0:07:02.036 in three hours, then they will slowly succumb to hypothermia. 0:07:02.156 --> 0:07:06.076 They just they'll dive cold basically, and under anesthesia, the 0:07:06.516 --> 0:07:10.436 water especially strips heat from your body very very rapidly, 0:07:11.116 --> 0:07:13.756 and so over three hours I knew from my experience 0:07:13.796 --> 0:07:17.316 in the operating theater and elsewhere, that your core temperature 0:07:17.316 --> 0:07:19.836 will drop rapidly, and by the time they got out, 0:07:19.876 --> 0:07:22.276 they would be dead from that alone. So yeah, it 0:07:22.396 --> 0:07:24.516 was I had plenty of reason to think that there's 0:07:24.636 --> 0:07:27.236 no way this could possibly work. Yeah, and there's also 0:07:27.276 --> 0:07:31.316 the practical considerations of administering anesthesia in those conditions. Right, 0:07:31.356 --> 0:07:35.756 there's germs in the water, there's improper lay, there's no 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:39.196 light other than a headlamp. Right, So you're probably concerning 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:41.396 you might not even be able to see things clearly. 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:44.116 And so I imagine as a physician, all of that, 0:07:44.276 --> 0:07:48.556 on top of everything you've just described, is just daunting. Yeah. 0:07:48.556 --> 0:07:51.316 I hadn't even really got to think about the practical 0:07:51.436 --> 0:07:53.956 logistics of administering the anesthetic. There were just so many 0:07:54.036 --> 0:07:57.876 theoretical concerns barring my thought processes about moving into that 0:07:58.876 --> 0:08:01.876 next stage of thinking how we'd approach it. But to 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:05.156 be honest, as it turned out, I was less concerned 0:08:05.156 --> 0:08:07.516 about some of those practical issues because I have worked 0:08:07.556 --> 0:08:10.876 in environments where I have administered anna sesia to people 0:08:10.916 --> 0:08:14.836 in less than perfect conditions, and I've worked in remote 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:19.756 areas doing surgery. I've worked in helicopter rescue services where 0:08:19.796 --> 0:08:22.236 you might be at the roadside in a ditch, administering 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:25.796 those sorts of critical care procedures to very sick or 0:08:25.876 --> 0:08:29.316 injured patients, so that, per se didn't worry me as 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:34.596 much as the theoretical concerns of the children being underwater. Yeah. So, 0:08:34.756 --> 0:08:38.676 despite all your reservations, Harry, you end up choosing to 0:08:38.716 --> 0:08:42.716 go to Thailand, and your wife Iona has a warning 0:08:42.796 --> 0:08:44.956 for you on the way out the door, because she's 0:08:45.036 --> 0:08:48.956 very concerned about how this may affect your professional reputation 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:52.796 and your personal well being if things don't go well. Yeah. 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:55.116 I guess I was still in that frame of mind where, 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:59.156 like all adventurous young men, I was still thinking, this 0:08:59.316 --> 0:09:01.716 is a bit of an adventure, and this will be 0:09:01.876 --> 0:09:04.716 an exciting thing to be part of, and obviously it's 0:09:04.716 --> 0:09:07.716 a very worthy cause. I don't really want to make 0:09:07.796 --> 0:09:10.396 secrets about the fact that I was quite keen to 0:09:10.556 --> 0:09:12.996 get over there because I've done all this training. I 0:09:13.116 --> 0:09:15.716 felt like I had the expertise, and so I was 0:09:15.756 --> 0:09:18.916 showing perhaps a bit too much enthusiasm for the whole 0:09:19.596 --> 0:09:22.716 the whole lark, and Fiona, being the sensible and smart woman, 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:24.996 she has just pointed out a few home truths about 0:09:26.116 --> 0:09:29.996 you know, what will happen to my career if these 0:09:30.076 --> 0:09:32.956 boys die essentially under an anesthetic, which I will be 0:09:33.076 --> 0:09:37.716 held without question, you know, singly responsible for How will 0:09:37.756 --> 0:09:40.956 that affect my career, my life, how will that appear 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:44.156 in the media, and what will it do to my 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:47.196 mental health? You know, being responsible for the lives of 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:51.116 these kids. And you know, that was my first reality check, 0:09:51.396 --> 0:09:55.036 I guess, and certainly took the edge off my enthusiasm 0:09:55.116 --> 0:09:57.556 and make me think a lot more seriously about you know, 0:09:57.636 --> 0:10:00.116 what I was embarking on. And in fact, Rick Stanton 0:10:00.156 --> 0:10:01.956 had said something a little bit similar to me on 0:10:02.036 --> 0:10:04.796 the telephone just as we were about to ring off. 0:10:04.836 --> 0:10:07.156 He said to me, you know, I know you're keen 0:10:07.196 --> 0:10:09.476 to get over here, but I'm just going to tell something. 0:10:09.756 --> 0:10:12.076 You're likely to swim to the end of this cave 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:14.836 and meet these boys as I have, and at the 0:10:14.916 --> 0:10:18.876 moment they're all very healthy and upbeat and happy looking children, 0:10:19.396 --> 0:10:21.796 and then most likely you and I are going to 0:10:21.836 --> 0:10:26.356 swim away and leave them to die, So that don't 0:10:26.436 --> 0:10:30.556 underestimate how unpleasant that that's going to be. So yeah, 0:10:30.796 --> 0:10:33.556 I'm surrounded by smart people, luckily, who have more insight 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:35.756 into some of the stuff than me. So yeah, it 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:39.596 was that was the first moment that I had cause 0:10:39.676 --> 0:10:41.636 to think about is this a smart thing to be 0:10:41.676 --> 0:10:45.756 getting involved with? So you know, you heed the call 0:10:46.076 --> 0:10:49.476 right and you end up going to Thailand. When you 0:10:49.596 --> 0:10:51.756 land in Thailand and you meet your way to the 0:10:51.876 --> 0:10:56.556 KIV site, what is the scene like there? Well, I've 0:10:56.596 --> 0:11:01.356 been to major incidents and I've seen chaotic accident scenes 0:11:01.436 --> 0:11:04.076 and so forth, but this was on such another level 0:11:04.276 --> 0:11:07.716 like I've never experienced. And there's this sea of different 0:11:07.836 --> 0:11:11.276 uniforms and people very busy marching back and forth, and 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:15.156 thousands of people and a whole infrastructure around that. You know, 0:11:15.236 --> 0:11:18.716 this village had popped up with people providing catering and 0:11:19.636 --> 0:11:22.076 clothing and haircuts, whatever you needed. You know, it was 0:11:22.116 --> 0:11:25.796 all there on site, and so it was. It was huge. 0:11:26.036 --> 0:11:27.916 I realized I've been dropped into the middle of something 0:11:28.036 --> 0:11:30.036 very very big. But all I wanted to do is 0:11:30.076 --> 0:11:33.396 find my British friends and talk talk caves. So I 0:11:33.516 --> 0:11:36.596 just put my head down and sprinted really away, searching 0:11:36.636 --> 0:11:39.436 for the British divers, you know, find out for myself 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:41.956 what this cave was actually like, because that was my 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:45.236 first responsibility was to my own safety and just find 0:11:45.276 --> 0:11:47.556 out whether I was going to be safe in the cave, 0:11:47.676 --> 0:11:49.716 because you know, when guys like Rick tell me that, 0:11:49.916 --> 0:11:51.916 you know, oh, Harry, the caves it's a bit sporting, 0:11:51.996 --> 0:11:53.596 but you'll be all right. You know how the British 0:11:53.596 --> 0:11:57.036 are very understated. You know that is not reassuring to 0:11:57.116 --> 0:11:59.196 me at all, because I've been cave diving with these 0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:03.036 guys and in the world they are bloody good. So 0:12:03.436 --> 0:12:04.916 you know, I've got to make sure that i can 0:12:04.956 --> 0:12:10.236 get my large backside through this cave without endangering myself 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:13.276 and therefore putting the mission at risk. Yeah, and you also, 0:12:13.476 --> 0:12:15.916 in addition to needing to see the cave firsthand and 0:12:15.996 --> 0:12:19.516 also make sure that you were physically capable of navigating it, 0:12:19.836 --> 0:12:22.756 you were absolutely adamant that you had the chance to 0:12:22.836 --> 0:12:26.356 meet the boys up close and personal. That first night 0:12:26.676 --> 0:12:28.356 that I did meet up with the British divers, there 0:12:28.356 --> 0:12:29.956 was quite a lot of pressure on me not to 0:12:30.156 --> 0:12:32.436 go into the cave and see the kids. They wanted 0:12:32.516 --> 0:12:35.636 me to focus on finessing the plan and practicing with 0:12:35.916 --> 0:12:38.036 some kids at the pool the next day. But I 0:12:38.116 --> 0:12:40.676 just had in my mind I had to actually swim 0:12:40.796 --> 0:12:44.556 the cave to actually just see these kids for myself, 0:12:44.676 --> 0:12:48.436 see the environment that they were in, and try and 0:12:48.756 --> 0:12:53.916 make this at that point, completely ridiculous hypothetical idea about 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:58.276 anesthetizing them into something a bit more concrete in my mind, 0:12:58.396 --> 0:13:00.836 you know, I I had no idea whether I could 0:13:00.876 --> 0:13:04.396 even contemplate it until I'd seen the whole thing for myself, 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:06.516 and then at least I would be able to talk 0:13:06.596 --> 0:13:09.476 with some more authority about whether it was a idea 0:13:09.676 --> 0:13:12.236 or whether it was something that I could be talked into. 0:13:12.476 --> 0:13:16.996 So the next morning, Craig Challon, my good mate from Australia. 0:13:17.396 --> 0:13:19.796 He had arrived a couple of hours after me the 0:13:19.876 --> 0:13:22.396 evening before, and I just knew he was a guy 0:13:22.436 --> 0:13:26.196 who was completely unflappable, totally reliable in a crisis. I 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:29.236 just wanted a trusted friend there with me by my side. 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:31.636 So anyway, Craig and I headed into the cave the 0:13:31.756 --> 0:13:35.556 next morning. I mean, to dive into a cave which 0:13:35.676 --> 0:13:38.316 is actively flooding is never a good idea. We would 0:13:38.356 --> 0:13:41.396 never do that. So it was challenging and the flow 0:13:41.516 --> 0:13:44.596 was significant. It was still hard work pulling yourself along 0:13:44.636 --> 0:13:48.516 the ropes into the flow. The water visibility was very poor. 0:13:48.756 --> 0:13:50.876 There was parts of the cave where you had to 0:13:51.876 --> 0:13:54.276 feel in front of you to feel the size and 0:13:54.476 --> 0:13:57.556 shape of the little restrictive crack that you had to 0:13:57.636 --> 0:14:00.556 post yourself through and then work out, okay, might have 0:14:00.636 --> 0:14:03.276 to turn myself at forty five degree angle to fit 0:14:03.356 --> 0:14:06.116 through there and crawl through with the rock touching your 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:09.636 front and your back. You'd be diving underneath. You'd pop 0:14:09.756 --> 0:14:12.196 up into a canal section, so it's like a river 0:14:12.676 --> 0:14:15.396 in an underground passage. You'd be wading or swimming through, 0:14:15.796 --> 0:14:18.756 dragging cylinders and equipment through there. You might have to 0:14:18.796 --> 0:14:20.756 climb out of the water, climb over the rocks for 0:14:20.836 --> 0:14:23.516 a while with all your equipment again back into the water. 0:14:23.676 --> 0:14:26.116 Off you go again. So about a three hour journey, 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:30.556 and then the rope at the very end towards the 0:14:30.636 --> 0:14:33.716 children actually changes color to a much thinner blue rope. 0:14:34.076 --> 0:14:35.716 And so I knew that we were getting close when 0:14:35.756 --> 0:14:38.636 we found that rope. And at that point, just as 0:14:38.676 --> 0:14:41.836 I see the shimmering surface just above me, the moment 0:14:41.916 --> 0:14:45.516 before my head comes up, I just I remember feeling 0:14:45.756 --> 0:14:49.036 very very anxious, thinking this is it. This is the 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:53.716 moment of truth, when this whole fanciful idea will actually 0:14:53.836 --> 0:14:57.356 become reality. And I'm about to meet these children who 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:00.236 I've heard so much about and thought so much about 0:15:00.316 --> 0:15:02.796 for such a long time, and now I'm going to 0:15:02.836 --> 0:15:04.796 see them face to face, and I'm going to have 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:07.156 to make a decision. And I think it was that 0:15:07.876 --> 0:15:10.876 need to confront that that actually did freak me out 0:15:10.876 --> 0:15:15.356 a bit. At that point, I remember being pretty pretty worried. Yeah. Wow. 0:15:16.836 --> 0:15:19.836 From that point, we had to swim along the surface 0:15:19.876 --> 0:15:24.876 of this quite deep river for maybe fifty meters or so, 0:15:25.556 --> 0:15:27.236 and we came around the corner and we can then 0:15:27.316 --> 0:15:30.836 see the lights on where the kids are. And as 0:15:30.876 --> 0:15:33.756 soon as I saw the children, I started to immediately 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:37.076 relax and just go into that work mode. Okay, here 0:15:37.116 --> 0:15:40.636 are my patients. At last, we will say hello, the 0:15:40.836 --> 0:15:43.396 four Thai Navy seals are there, one of whom is 0:15:43.436 --> 0:15:46.596 a doctor, doctor Puck, who speaks quite good English. So 0:15:47.116 --> 0:15:50.076 I've got an English speaking colleague, which did so much 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:52.436 for my nerves. I have to say. It was incredibly 0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:56.036 reassuring to meet that guy and be able to discuss 0:15:56.116 --> 0:15:58.676 the case, if you like, with him, like a corridor consultation. 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:02.436 And we parked all our diving gear opposite where the 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:05.316 kids were, and then we approached and climbed out of 0:16:05.356 --> 0:16:08.916 the water and hiked up this very steep, muddy, slippery hill, 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:11.876 which was the first opportunity for the kids to see 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:14.236 us in action and have a very good laugh at 0:16:14.276 --> 0:16:17.276 our expense, because of course, these kids have been living 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:21.036 on this hills, you know, for the last twelve thirteen 0:16:21.156 --> 0:16:24.436 days by then, and they've got bare feet and their 0:16:24.516 --> 0:16:26.956 skinny fit little kids, and they're just running up and 0:16:27.036 --> 0:16:29.436 down the hill, whereas Craig and I, you know, middle 0:16:29.476 --> 0:16:32.916 aged men were slipping and sliding, falling on their faces, 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:35.596 falling in the mud, and the kids are roaring with laughter. 0:16:35.636 --> 0:16:39.156 They thought it was hilarious. So that was a great icebreaker. Oh, 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:41.596 nice comic relief, I love. Yeah. I think it was 0:16:41.716 --> 0:16:43.996 for all of us to be honest, and so we 0:16:44.116 --> 0:16:46.036 were able to have a bit of a laugh about that. 0:16:47.636 --> 0:16:50.316 And how did you how did you find the boys 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:52.596 to be How did they seem physically, how did they 0:16:52.596 --> 0:16:56.076 seem mentally? Well? My immediate sense was that they are 0:16:56.156 --> 0:16:58.836 not on death's door. That was the first thing. I mean, 0:16:58.916 --> 0:17:00.956 I didn't know what to expect. You know, what is 0:17:00.956 --> 0:17:04.156 a child, healthy child who goes into a cave and 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:06.436 has no food for nine days? I mean, I didn't 0:17:06.476 --> 0:17:10.396 really have any experience of what that, yeah, duration fasting 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:14.596 or some lie and all the angst. I didn't really 0:17:14.636 --> 0:17:16.156 have a feel for what they would do to a 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:19.876 child between the ages of eleven and sixteen. And they're 0:17:19.876 --> 0:17:22.876 already skinny kids, and you know, they did look very 0:17:23.076 --> 0:17:25.036 very thin to me. And some of them, you know, 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:27.356 you see the pictures now, they just they're gaunt, their 0:17:27.436 --> 0:17:29.836 bones and sticking out of their face, and so they 0:17:29.916 --> 0:17:32.796 had they had lost a significant amount of weight. But 0:17:32.956 --> 0:17:35.036 on the other hand, they were all standing, most of 0:17:35.116 --> 0:17:37.956 them were smiling, they were talking. I noticed a couple 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:40.036 of them squabbling with each other, you know, having a 0:17:40.116 --> 0:17:42.556 bit of a punch, and I thought, well, they looked 0:17:42.596 --> 0:17:45.676 like normal kids, normal normal teenage boys, so they can't 0:17:45.716 --> 0:17:49.236 be too bad. And I kind of went to doctor 0:17:49.316 --> 0:17:51.796 Puck in the first instance, and I, you know, we 0:17:51.876 --> 0:17:54.716 had a brief chat to introduce ourselves, and I have 0:17:54.796 --> 0:17:56.596 to say he seemed as relieved as I was to 0:17:56.956 --> 0:18:00.396 have another medical person in there, and so I just 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:02.796 I asked him tell me about the children in terms 0:18:02.876 --> 0:18:04.636 from a medical point of view. You know, they haven't 0:18:04.636 --> 0:18:07.596 got any particular concerns. We sort of went through, system 0:18:07.676 --> 0:18:10.916 by system how they're lungs, how's their skin? Have they 0:18:10.916 --> 0:18:14.596 got any diarrhea? All those sorts of things, And essentially 0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:16.196 it seemed like a couple of the kids who I 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:18.756 could hear coughing, did have a bit of an early 0:18:18.836 --> 0:18:22.716 chest infection, which was of concern, but otherwise they were 0:18:22.756 --> 0:18:26.596 in pretty good shape. The environment itself was putred, there's 0:18:26.676 --> 0:18:31.156 no getting away from the smell was apalling. I mean, 0:18:31.236 --> 0:18:33.796 they'd been using this place as a toilet for the 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:37.876 last nearly two weeks, and since food had been taken 0:18:38.116 --> 0:18:40.916 in there, of course that had changed things up even further. 0:18:41.356 --> 0:18:42.716 But it seemed to me it was only a matter 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:47.276 of time before their health really deteriorated rapidly. And was 0:18:47.316 --> 0:18:49.916 it doctor Park who shared the news with the boys 0:18:49.956 --> 0:18:54.796 about what the proposed plan was. So I had prepared 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:59.916 myself by taking in a recipe which I got one 0:18:59.956 --> 0:19:02.756 of the time medical people outside the entrance to write 0:19:02.796 --> 0:19:04.796 for me, because I didn't know whether anyone would be 0:19:04.836 --> 0:19:09.396 speaking English. So I gave doctor Park this piece of 0:19:09.436 --> 0:19:11.596 paper and said would you read this out to everyone 0:19:11.876 --> 0:19:15.036 in the room in tie And so he went step 0:19:15.156 --> 0:19:17.316 by step and in English. Basically what it said is 0:19:17.396 --> 0:19:21.876 that tomorrow we hope to return, and we plan to 0:19:22.596 --> 0:19:25.196 give each child a tablet which will make them feel 0:19:25.476 --> 0:19:28.396 a little bit sleepy and relaxed. We will dress them 0:19:28.436 --> 0:19:31.236 in diving gear. They will come down the hill and 0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:34.676 sit on doctor Harry's lap, and they will receive an 0:19:34.716 --> 0:19:38.476 injection in each leg. The injections will make them fall asleep. 0:19:38.876 --> 0:19:41.196 We'll finish dressing them in the diving gear and then 0:19:41.276 --> 0:19:43.516 we'll swim them out of the cave whilst they're asleep. 0:19:43.996 --> 0:19:47.276 And that's pretty much it. And I think it says 0:19:47.316 --> 0:19:50.956 a lot about doctor Puck's professionalism that, of course this 0:19:51.076 --> 0:19:52.676 plan was as new to him as it was to 0:19:52.796 --> 0:19:55.356 the kids. Oh wow, yeah, that's right. And I'm watching 0:19:55.476 --> 0:19:59.956 his face and halfway through he sort of gives me 0:20:00.076 --> 0:20:02.476 the sideways look, but he didn't say anything. He didn't 0:20:03.116 --> 0:20:06.876 throw himself to the ground screaming you're insane, Harris, You're insane, 0:20:07.036 --> 0:20:10.436 which is what I expected. It was very professional, very cool, 0:20:10.596 --> 0:20:12.356 and he just looked at me and then he kept reading. 0:20:12.836 --> 0:20:15.076 And then I was watching the kid's faces as he 0:20:15.196 --> 0:20:17.916 reached the end of the list, and I can tell 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:20.036 you that all those children were just nodding as if 0:20:20.076 --> 0:20:23.076 it was the most normal thing they'd ever heard, you know, 0:20:23.076 --> 0:20:26.796 a couple of thumbs up again, no one collapsing in 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:30.636 hysterics or crying or anything like that. They were just like, yep, 0:20:31.356 --> 0:20:33.876 get us out of here. And I felt like at 0:20:33.956 --> 0:20:35.836 that point I could have said tomorrow we're coming in. 0:20:35.956 --> 0:20:37.876 There'll be a flying carpet, you'll all sit on it 0:20:38.356 --> 0:20:40.316 and we'll magic you out of the cave, and they 0:20:40.356 --> 0:20:42.436 would have had the same response, because I think after 0:20:42.516 --> 0:20:45.236 two weeks, I get the hell out of there. They 0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:48.036 they just wanted someone to take charge and get them out. 0:20:48.356 --> 0:20:51.076 So you went into the cave that day thinking okay, 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:54.956 I need to decide. What was there a specific moment 0:20:55.236 --> 0:20:59.036 when you when you found that clarity and you thought, okay, 0:20:59.556 --> 0:21:03.396 I'm in I'm going to do this. No, there wasn't. 0:21:03.556 --> 0:21:07.316 In fact, looking back, I can't remember that moment when 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:11.476 I had decided to do this. And maybe in retrospect 0:21:12.036 --> 0:21:14.436 that happened on the aeroplane when I was flying over, 0:21:14.516 --> 0:21:17.876 because I was making notes, you know, reading up about 0:21:17.916 --> 0:21:20.956 all different drugs and you know, what will I use 0:21:21.036 --> 0:21:23.076 for this if I go ahead? You know, I was 0:21:23.156 --> 0:21:26.956 ringing friends before I left Australia saying hey, if you 0:21:27.036 --> 0:21:28.996 were going to do this, what drugs would you use? 0:21:29.956 --> 0:21:32.636 Just to see if anyone at a different or better 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:37.876 idea to mine. So maybe I had already decided at 0:21:37.916 --> 0:21:41.756 some level, because I don't remember a point where, you know, 0:21:41.876 --> 0:21:43.756 it just went yep, okay, I'll do it. It just 0:21:44.556 --> 0:21:48.276 became assumed knowledge at some point in my mind. Yeah. 0:21:48.716 --> 0:21:52.516 Is it fair to say that in some way it 0:21:52.756 --> 0:21:55.196 was It was not an affirmative decision that you were 0:21:55.236 --> 0:21:57.556 doing it. It was actually just the absence of deciding 0:21:57.756 --> 0:22:00.036 not to do it. You know that inertia was carrying 0:22:00.036 --> 0:22:02.836 you forward and then suddenly find yourself in this position 0:22:02.956 --> 0:22:06.156