Speaker 1: Pushkin. It was summer of twenty eighteen in Thailand when
Speaker 1: twelve boys from a soccer team in their coach ventured
Speaker 1: into a local cave to go exploring. The boys were
Speaker 1: deep within the cave when the area was hit by
Speaker 1: a monsoon days earlier than expected. Water began flooding into
Speaker 1: the cave at an alarming rate, and the boys soon
Speaker 1: found themselves trapped inside with no way out. The world
Speaker 1: was transfixed as rescuers spent days trying to find the
Speaker 1: boys soccer team, and remarkably they found them two and
Speaker 1: a half miles deep within the cave and stationed together
Speaker 1: on a dry hill. But it was one thing to
Speaker 1: find the boys and to send in medical or eating
Speaker 1: food to help keep them alive. Getting them out safely, though,
Speaker 1: that was an entirely different matter. Eventually, the rescue team
Speaker 1: came up with a bold and risky plan and they
Speaker 1: shared it with the boys. They were just like, yep,
Speaker 1: get us out of here. And I felt like at
Speaker 1: that point I could have said tomorrow we're coming in.
Speaker 1: There'll be a flying carpet, you'll all sit on it
Speaker 1: and we'll magic you out of the cave, and they
Speaker 1: would have had the same response, because I think after
Speaker 1: two weeks, yeah, I just want to get the hell
Speaker 1: out of there. They just wanted someone to take charge
Speaker 1: and get them out. That's doctor Richard Harris or Harry,
Speaker 1: the Australian doctor, an underwater cave explorer who had to
Speaker 1: swim deep within the flooded cave to try and rescue
Speaker 1: the boys. This is the moment of truth, when this
Speaker 1: whole fanciful idea will actually become reality. And I'm about
Speaker 1: to meet these children who I've heard so much about
Speaker 1: and thought so much about for such a long time,
Speaker 1: and now I'm going to see them face to face,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to make it to see.
Speaker 1: On today's episode a doctor Heath's an unexpected call. I'm
Speaker 1: Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. By the time
Speaker 1: Harry got to Thailand, the soccer team had been stuck
Speaker 1: in the cave for nearly two weeks and things were
Speaker 1: looking bleak. The inside of the cave was like a
Speaker 1: labyrinth miles long, flooded with murky and turbulent water and
Speaker 1: full of narrow tunnels. One former Thai Navy seal had
Speaker 1: already died while navigating the flooded cave. The boys ranged
Speaker 1: in age from eleven to sixteen, and in order to
Speaker 1: get out of the cave, they would need to put
Speaker 1: on oxygen mass and swim through highly complex submerge portions
Speaker 1: of the cave. Experts worried that the boy's panic reflexes
Speaker 1: would invariably kick in, which would lead them to tear
Speaker 1: off their oxygen mass and potentially drown. Thai government officials
Speaker 1: in the military worked with experts from around the world
Speaker 1: to explore every idea they could come up with to
Speaker 1: save these boys, from trying to pump water out of
Speaker 1: the cave to seeing if they could try to keep
Speaker 1: them alive inside the cave until the monsoon season had passed.
Speaker 1: But for a variety of reasons, these ideas wouldn't work,
Speaker 1: and then finally they came up with a plan a
Speaker 1: Hail Mary passed to rescue the soccer team. They would
Speaker 1: innesetize the boys, fit them with an oxygen mask, and
Speaker 1: then swim them out while they were fully unconscious. But
Speaker 1: in order for it to work, they needed to find
Speaker 1: someone with a specific set of skills to lead the
Speaker 1: rescue mission. They needed to find someone who is an
Speaker 1: expert cave diver and an anthesiologist. They needed my guest today,
Speaker 1: Australian diver and doctor Harry. Harry and I started our
Speaker 1: conversation by talking about how he got involved with the
Speaker 1: Thai cave rescue mission in the first place. Harry had
Speaker 1: been finishing up with a patient in an operating room
Speaker 1: in Australia when he got some texts. They were from
Speaker 1: his friend Rick Stanton, a British cave diver who was
Speaker 1: already on the ground in Thailand trying to help with
Speaker 1: the rescue. So it was about quarter to seven on
Speaker 1: that Thursday morning when Rick and I were exchanging texts,
Speaker 1: and Rick was very despondent on that morning. He was
Speaker 1: reinforcing his completely pessimistic outlook on that day, as he
Speaker 1: had for several days about the possibility of getting these
Speaker 1: children out. He was just really at the point where
Speaker 1: he felt like the best thing he could do was
Speaker 1: leave Thailand because he was so despondent that there was
Speaker 1: zero chance of getting these children out. And then just
Speaker 1: at the end of the text message, he just threw
Speaker 1: in this one line about what do you think about
Speaker 1: sedating the children to bring them out? And I just
Speaker 1: I looked at this message and I did a double
Speaker 1: take because it had never occurred to me that someone
Speaker 1: would come up with an idea so preposterous and so
Speaker 1: out of left field. And so that's kind of where
Speaker 1: the conversation finished earlier that morning, and I just replied
Speaker 1: with one mind saying it's out of the question. And
Speaker 1: I said, look, it's just a ridiculous idea. But I said,
Speaker 1: if you'd like us to come to Thailand, maybe there's
Speaker 1: something I can do. I just had a sense that
Speaker 1: I needed to be there and my skill set was
Speaker 1: important for this rescue, and I said, perhaps I can
Speaker 1: swim to the end of the cave provide medical care
Speaker 1: for these children whilst you guys come up with a
Speaker 1: better idea. Basically, I see, and I know you know,
Speaker 1: as far as you knew at the time, only one
Speaker 1: person had ever been under water under anesthesia and survived, right,
Speaker 1: So this was this was an idea that you rejected outright.
Speaker 1: And so tell me, as an experienced medical professional, as
Speaker 1: someone who practices anesthesia, what were the risks associated with
Speaker 1: giving these boys and their coach anesthesia? In the keen environment. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't think you have to be a cave diver
Speaker 1: or an anesthesiologist to realize that submerging an unconscious person
Speaker 1: for three hours and expecting that they're going to still
Speaker 1: be alive three hours later, you know, is fraught with peril.
Speaker 1: So I thought that for sure, these kids will flood
Speaker 1: the mask and drown inside their mask at some point
Speaker 1: over that three hour journey. But also I thought, even
Speaker 1: if that doesn't happen, you know, at some stage their
Speaker 1: head will just fall forward and they'll obstruct their airway.
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who's done a first aid course knows
Speaker 1: that an unconscious person we have to protect their airway
Speaker 1: at all costs. And the third thing, I thought, well,
Speaker 1: even if those two things don't happen at some point
Speaker 1: in three hours, then they will slowly succumb to hypothermia.
Speaker 1: They just they'll dive cold basically, and under anesthesia, the
Speaker 1: water especially strips heat from your body very very rapidly,
Speaker 1: and so over three hours I knew from my experience
Speaker 1: in the operating theater and elsewhere, that your core temperature
Speaker 1: will drop rapidly, and by the time they got out,
Speaker 1: they would be dead from that alone. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: was I had plenty of reason to think that there's
Speaker 1: no way this could possibly work. Yeah, and there's also
Speaker 1: the practical considerations of administering anesthesia in those conditions. Right,
Speaker 1: there's germs in the water, there's improper lay, there's no
Speaker 1: light other than a headlamp. Right, So you're probably concerning
Speaker 1: you might not even be able to see things clearly.
Speaker 1: And so I imagine as a physician, all of that,
Speaker 1: on top of everything you've just described, is just daunting. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hadn't even really got to think about the practical
Speaker 1: logistics of administering the anesthetic. There were just so many
Speaker 1: theoretical concerns barring my thought processes about moving into that
Speaker 1: next stage of thinking how we'd approach it. But to
Speaker 1: be honest, as it turned out, I was less concerned
Speaker 1: about some of those practical issues because I have worked
Speaker 1: in environments where I have administered anna sesia to people
Speaker 1: in less than perfect conditions, and I've worked in remote
Speaker 1: areas doing surgery. I've worked in helicopter rescue services where
Speaker 1: you might be at the roadside in a ditch, administering
Speaker 1: those sorts of critical care procedures to very sick or
Speaker 1: injured patients, so that, per se didn't worry me as
Speaker 1: much as the theoretical concerns of the children being underwater. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: despite all your reservations, Harry, you end up choosing to
Speaker 1: go to Thailand, and your wife Iona has a warning
Speaker 1: for you on the way out the door, because she's
Speaker 1: very concerned about how this may affect your professional reputation
Speaker 1: and your personal well being if things don't go well. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess I was still in that frame of mind where,
Speaker 1: like all adventurous young men, I was still thinking, this
Speaker 1: is a bit of an adventure, and this will be
Speaker 1: an exciting thing to be part of, and obviously it's
Speaker 1: a very worthy cause. I don't really want to make
Speaker 1: secrets about the fact that I was quite keen to
Speaker 1: get over there because I've done all this training. I
Speaker 1: felt like I had the expertise, and so I was
Speaker 1: showing perhaps a bit too much enthusiasm for the whole
Speaker 1: the whole lark, and Fiona, being the sensible and smart woman,
Speaker 1: she has just pointed out a few home truths about
Speaker 1: you know, what will happen to my career if these
Speaker 1: boys die essentially under an anesthetic, which I will be
Speaker 1: held without question, you know, singly responsible for How will
Speaker 1: that affect my career, my life, how will that appear
Speaker 1: in the media, and what will it do to my
Speaker 1: mental health? You know, being responsible for the lives of
Speaker 1: these kids. And you know, that was my first reality check,
Speaker 1: I guess, and certainly took the edge off my enthusiasm
Speaker 1: and make me think a lot more seriously about you know,
Speaker 1: what I was embarking on. And in fact, Rick Stanton
Speaker 1: had said something a little bit similar to me on
Speaker 1: the telephone just as we were about to ring off.
Speaker 1: He said to me, you know, I know you're keen
Speaker 1: to get over here, but I'm just going to tell something.
Speaker 1: You're likely to swim to the end of this cave
Speaker 1: and meet these boys as I have, and at the
Speaker 1: moment they're all very healthy and upbeat and happy looking children,
Speaker 1: and then most likely you and I are going to
Speaker 1: swim away and leave them to die, So that don't
Speaker 1: underestimate how unpleasant that that's going to be. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm surrounded by smart people, luckily, who have more insight
Speaker 1: into some of the stuff than me. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: was that was the first moment that I had cause
Speaker 1: to think about is this a smart thing to be
Speaker 1: getting involved with? So you know, you heed the call
Speaker 1: right and you end up going to Thailand. When you
Speaker 1: land in Thailand and you meet your way to the
Speaker 1: KIV site, what is the scene like there? Well, I've
Speaker 1: been to major incidents and I've seen chaotic accident scenes
Speaker 1: and so forth, but this was on such another level
Speaker 1: like I've never experienced. And there's this sea of different
Speaker 1: uniforms and people very busy marching back and forth, and
Speaker 1: thousands of people and a whole infrastructure around that. You know,
Speaker 1: this village had popped up with people providing catering and
Speaker 1: clothing and haircuts, whatever you needed. You know, it was
Speaker 1: all there on site, and so it was. It was huge.
Speaker 1: I realized I've been dropped into the middle of something
Speaker 1: very very big. But all I wanted to do is
Speaker 1: find my British friends and talk talk caves. So I
Speaker 1: just put my head down and sprinted really away, searching
Speaker 1: for the British divers, you know, find out for myself
Speaker 1: what this cave was actually like, because that was my
Speaker 1: first responsibility was to my own safety and just find
Speaker 1: out whether I was going to be safe in the cave,
Speaker 1: because you know, when guys like Rick tell me that,
Speaker 1: you know, oh, Harry, the caves it's a bit sporting,
Speaker 1: but you'll be all right. You know how the British
Speaker 1: are very understated. You know that is not reassuring to
Speaker 1: me at all, because I've been cave diving with these
Speaker 1: guys and in the world they are bloody good. So
Speaker 1: you know, I've got to make sure that i can
Speaker 1: get my large backside through this cave without endangering myself
Speaker 1: and therefore putting the mission at risk. Yeah, and you also,
Speaker 1: in addition to needing to see the cave firsthand and
Speaker 1: also make sure that you were physically capable of navigating it,
Speaker 1: you were absolutely adamant that you had the chance to
Speaker 1: meet the boys up close and personal. That first night
Speaker 1: that I did meet up with the British divers, there
Speaker 1: was quite a lot of pressure on me not to
Speaker 1: go into the cave and see the kids. They wanted
Speaker 1: me to focus on finessing the plan and practicing with
Speaker 1: some kids at the pool the next day. But I
Speaker 1: just had in my mind I had to actually swim
Speaker 1: the cave to actually just see these kids for myself,
Speaker 1: see the environment that they were in, and try and
Speaker 1: make this at that point, completely ridiculous hypothetical idea about
Speaker 1: anesthetizing them into something a bit more concrete in my mind,
Speaker 1: you know, I I had no idea whether I could
Speaker 1: even contemplate it until I'd seen the whole thing for myself,
Speaker 1: and then at least I would be able to talk
Speaker 1: with some more authority about whether it was a idea
Speaker 1: or whether it was something that I could be talked into.
Speaker 1: So the next morning, Craig Challon, my good mate from Australia.
Speaker 1: He had arrived a couple of hours after me the
Speaker 1: evening before, and I just knew he was a guy
Speaker 1: who was completely unflappable, totally reliable in a crisis. I
Speaker 1: just wanted a trusted friend there with me by my side.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Craig and I headed into the cave the
Speaker 1: next morning. I mean, to dive into a cave which
Speaker 1: is actively flooding is never a good idea. We would
Speaker 1: never do that. So it was challenging and the flow
Speaker 1: was significant. It was still hard work pulling yourself along
Speaker 1: the ropes into the flow. The water visibility was very poor.
Speaker 1: There was parts of the cave where you had to
Speaker 1: feel in front of you to feel the size and
Speaker 1: shape of the little restrictive crack that you had to
Speaker 1: post yourself through and then work out, okay, might have
Speaker 1: to turn myself at forty five degree angle to fit
Speaker 1: through there and crawl through with the rock touching your
Speaker 1: front and your back. You'd be diving underneath. You'd pop
Speaker 1: up into a canal section, so it's like a river
Speaker 1: in an underground passage. You'd be wading or swimming through,
Speaker 1: dragging cylinders and equipment through there. You might have to
Speaker 1: climb out of the water, climb over the rocks for
Speaker 1: a while with all your equipment again back into the water.
Speaker 1: Off you go again. So about a three hour journey,
Speaker 1: and then the rope at the very end towards the
Speaker 1: children actually changes color to a much thinner blue rope.
Speaker 1: And so I knew that we were getting close when
Speaker 1: we found that rope. And at that point, just as
Speaker 1: I see the shimmering surface just above me, the moment
Speaker 1: before my head comes up, I just I remember feeling
Speaker 1: very very anxious, thinking this is it. This is the
Speaker 1: moment of truth, when this whole fanciful idea will actually
Speaker 1: become reality. And I'm about to meet these children who
Speaker 1: I've heard so much about and thought so much about
Speaker 1: for such a long time, and now I'm going to
Speaker 1: see them face to face, and I'm going to have
Speaker 1: to make a decision. And I think it was that
Speaker 1: need to confront that that actually did freak me out
Speaker 1: a bit. At that point, I remember being pretty pretty worried. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: From that point, we had to swim along the surface
Speaker 1: of this quite deep river for maybe fifty meters or so,
Speaker 1: and we came around the corner and we can then
Speaker 1: see the lights on where the kids are. And as
Speaker 1: soon as I saw the children, I started to immediately
Speaker 1: relax and just go into that work mode. Okay, here
Speaker 1: are my patients. At last, we will say hello, the
Speaker 1: four Thai Navy seals are there, one of whom is
Speaker 1: a doctor, doctor Puck, who speaks quite good English. So
Speaker 1: I've got an English speaking colleague, which did so much
Speaker 1: for my nerves. I have to say. It was incredibly
Speaker 1: reassuring to meet that guy and be able to discuss
Speaker 1: the case, if you like, with him, like a corridor consultation.
Speaker 1: And we parked all our diving gear opposite where the
Speaker 1: kids were, and then we approached and climbed out of
Speaker 1: the water and hiked up this very steep, muddy, slippery hill,
Speaker 1: which was the first opportunity for the kids to see
Speaker 1: us in action and have a very good laugh at
Speaker 1: our expense, because of course, these kids have been living
Speaker 1: on this hills, you know, for the last twelve thirteen
Speaker 1: days by then, and they've got bare feet and their
Speaker 1: skinny fit little kids, and they're just running up and
Speaker 1: down the hill, whereas Craig and I, you know, middle
Speaker 1: aged men were slipping and sliding, falling on their faces,
Speaker 1: falling in the mud, and the kids are roaring with laughter.
Speaker 1: They thought it was hilarious. So that was a great icebreaker. Oh,
Speaker 1: nice comic relief, I love. Yeah. I think it was
Speaker 1: for all of us to be honest, and so we
Speaker 1: were able to have a bit of a laugh about that.
Speaker 1: And how did you how did you find the boys
Speaker 1: to be How did they seem physically, how did they
Speaker 1: seem mentally? Well? My immediate sense was that they are
Speaker 1: not on death's door. That was the first thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to expect. You know, what is
Speaker 1: a child, healthy child who goes into a cave and
Speaker 1: has no food for nine days? I mean, I didn't
Speaker 1: really have any experience of what that, yeah, duration fasting
Speaker 1: or some lie and all the angst. I didn't really
Speaker 1: have a feel for what they would do to a
Speaker 1: child between the ages of eleven and sixteen. And they're
Speaker 1: already skinny kids, and you know, they did look very
Speaker 1: very thin to me. And some of them, you know,
Speaker 1: you see the pictures now, they just they're gaunt, their
Speaker 1: bones and sticking out of their face, and so they
Speaker 1: had they had lost a significant amount of weight. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, they were all standing, most of
Speaker 1: them were smiling, they were talking. I noticed a couple
Speaker 1: of them squabbling with each other, you know, having a
Speaker 1: bit of a punch, and I thought, well, they looked
Speaker 1: like normal kids, normal normal teenage boys, so they can't
Speaker 1: be too bad. And I kind of went to doctor
Speaker 1: Puck in the first instance, and I, you know, we
Speaker 1: had a brief chat to introduce ourselves, and I have
Speaker 1: to say he seemed as relieved as I was to
Speaker 1: have another medical person in there, and so I just
Speaker 1: I asked him tell me about the children in terms
Speaker 1: from a medical point of view. You know, they haven't
Speaker 1: got any particular concerns. We sort of went through, system
Speaker 1: by system how they're lungs, how's their skin? Have they
Speaker 1: got any diarrhea? All those sorts of things, And essentially
Speaker 1: it seemed like a couple of the kids who I
Speaker 1: could hear coughing, did have a bit of an early
Speaker 1: chest infection, which was of concern, but otherwise they were
Speaker 1: in pretty good shape. The environment itself was putred, there's
Speaker 1: no getting away from the smell was apalling. I mean,
Speaker 1: they'd been using this place as a toilet for the
Speaker 1: last nearly two weeks, and since food had been taken
Speaker 1: in there, of course that had changed things up even further.
Speaker 1: But it seemed to me it was only a matter
Speaker 1: of time before their health really deteriorated rapidly. And was
Speaker 1: it doctor Park who shared the news with the boys
Speaker 1: about what the proposed plan was. So I had prepared
Speaker 1: myself by taking in a recipe which I got one
Speaker 1: of the time medical people outside the entrance to write
Speaker 1: for me, because I didn't know whether anyone would be
Speaker 1: speaking English. So I gave doctor Park this piece of
Speaker 1: paper and said would you read this out to everyone
Speaker 1: in the room in tie And so he went step
Speaker 1: by step and in English. Basically what it said is
Speaker 1: that tomorrow we hope to return, and we plan to
Speaker 1: give each child a tablet which will make them feel
Speaker 1: a little bit sleepy and relaxed. We will dress them
Speaker 1: in diving gear. They will come down the hill and
Speaker 1: sit on doctor Harry's lap, and they will receive an
Speaker 1: injection in each leg. The injections will make them fall asleep.
Speaker 1: We'll finish dressing them in the diving gear and then
Speaker 1: we'll swim them out of the cave whilst they're asleep.
Speaker 1: And that's pretty much it. And I think it says
Speaker 1: a lot about doctor Puck's professionalism that, of course this
Speaker 1: plan was as new to him as it was to
Speaker 1: the kids. Oh wow, yeah, that's right. And I'm watching
Speaker 1: his face and halfway through he sort of gives me
Speaker 1: the sideways look, but he didn't say anything. He didn't
Speaker 1: throw himself to the ground screaming you're insane, Harris, You're insane,
Speaker 1: which is what I expected. It was very professional, very cool,
Speaker 1: and he just looked at me and then he kept reading.
Speaker 1: And then I was watching the kid's faces as he
Speaker 1: reached the end of the list, and I can tell
Speaker 1: you that all those children were just nodding as if
Speaker 1: it was the most normal thing they'd ever heard, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of thumbs up again, no one collapsing in
Speaker 1: hysterics or crying or anything like that. They were just like, yep,
Speaker 1: get us out of here. And I felt like at
Speaker 1: that point I could have said tomorrow we're coming in.
Speaker 1: There'll be a flying carpet, you'll all sit on it
Speaker 1: and we'll magic you out of the cave, and they
Speaker 1: would have had the same response, because I think after
Speaker 1: two weeks, I get the hell out of there. They
Speaker 1: they just wanted someone to take charge and get them out.
Speaker 1: So you went into the cave that day thinking okay,
Speaker 1: I need to decide. What was there a specific moment
Speaker 1: when you when you found that clarity and you thought, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm in I'm going to do this. No, there wasn't.
Speaker 1: In fact, looking back, I can't remember that moment when
Speaker 1: I had decided to do this. And maybe in retrospect
Speaker 1: that happened on the aeroplane when I was flying over,
Speaker 1: because I was making notes, you know, reading up about
Speaker 1: all different drugs and you know, what will I use
Speaker 1: for this if I go ahead? You know, I was
Speaker 1: ringing friends before I left Australia saying hey, if you
Speaker 1: were going to do this, what drugs would you use?
Speaker 1: Just to see if anyone at a different or better
Speaker 1: idea to mine. So maybe I had already decided at
Speaker 1: some level, because I don't remember a point where, you know,
Speaker 1: it just went yep, okay, I'll do it. It just
Speaker 1: became assumed knowledge at some point in my mind. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that in some way it
Speaker 1: was It was not an affirmative decision that you were
Speaker 1: doing it. It was actually just the absence of deciding
Speaker 1: not to do it. You know that inertia was carrying
Speaker 1: you forward and then suddenly find yourself in this position
Speaker 1: where you're actually executing on the job. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's right. I think I kept looking for reasons not
Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, And when the last one of
Speaker 1: those fell away, it was just left there on the table,
Speaker 1: and and I went, of course, I'm doing this. I
Speaker 1: probably always was. I don't know, but here I am.
Speaker 1: Let's go. We'll be right back. With a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. I'm talking with doctor Richard Harris or Harry,
Speaker 1: about the dangerous rescue mission he and others went on
Speaker 1: to save a boy's soccer team. The boys and their
Speaker 1: coach were trapped deep within a flooded cave full of
Speaker 1: narrow passageways and chambers. The plan was to innesthetize the boys,
Speaker 1: fit them with an oxygen mask, and then swim them
Speaker 1: out while they were fully unconscious. Each rescue would take
Speaker 1: several hours, so they had to spread the mission out
Speaker 1: over three days. The plan was for Harry, the British
Speaker 1: diver Rick Stanton, and the rest of the team to
Speaker 1: rescue four kids each day, plus the coach. There were,
Speaker 1: of course, a number of unknowns and ethical considerations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this sort I've come to call the moral dilemmas of
Speaker 1: the cave rescue, and there's a few actually, And the
Speaker 1: first thing I vocalized to the British divers in one
Speaker 1: of our early planning meetings was that what if the
Speaker 1: first one or two kids die, which I think they will,
Speaker 1: we need a way of reassessing, regrouping and maybe changing
Speaker 1: something in the plan that had caused these deaths if
Speaker 1: there was a single point of failure, and so we
Speaker 1: need to have a system in place where we can
Speaker 1: kind of close the loop on the plan for the
Speaker 1: first couple of kids. So that was the first thing
Speaker 1: that we had to think about, was how to manage
Speaker 1: those early deaths if they occurred. The second thing I
Speaker 1: said was, well, how many deaths will I be able
Speaker 1: to tolerate before I just cannot carry on. I mean,
Speaker 1: if on the first day, when I come out at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, one child died, or two children,
Speaker 1: or maybe all four, what am I going to do?
Speaker 1: I don't think I can go back and repeat that
Speaker 1: if the first four children have died. And they said
Speaker 1: they were basically just going to pretty much drag me
Speaker 1: back in there to repeat the second and the third
Speaker 1: days and until all the children were out one way
Speaker 1: or the other. And we did talk about the fact
Speaker 1: that these kids had to come out and if they died,
Speaker 1: their bodies still had to be brought out for their parents.
Speaker 1: So the British divers, whose job it was to take
Speaker 1: the boys all the way through the cave, they were
Speaker 1: very clear in their minds that if the boy drowned
Speaker 1: halfway through, they just had to keep going and take
Speaker 1: the child's body out of The moral dilemmas for me
Speaker 1: was if there were any fatalities on that first day,
Speaker 1: what was I going to say to the boys who
Speaker 1: remained in the cave when I went back on day
Speaker 1: two because it would be me that would be going
Speaker 1: back to see the kids and prepare them for the anesthesia.
Speaker 1: And we decided that I was going to have to
Speaker 1: lie to the children because what I knew in my
Speaker 1: heart was there was no way I could drag a child,
Speaker 1: kicking and screaming, down to the water's edge and assault
Speaker 1: them with a syringeful of ketamine to anesthetize them to
Speaker 1: send them on their way. So I had to have
Speaker 1: their cooperation to be able to do that. And I
Speaker 1: don't know whether I would be capable of telling that
Speaker 1: lie to my patients, but that was what was in
Speaker 1: my mind that I would have to do if any
Speaker 1: of the boys died. Yeah, just to like you said,
Speaker 1: keep morale high and at least increase the odds that
Speaker 1: whoever could be saved could be saved, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: what other options do you have? And the view of
Speaker 1: the big meeting that we had the night before the
Speaker 1: big rescue day was that, you know, even if we
Speaker 1: get a couple of these kids out alive, the mission
Speaker 1: will be considered a success. Now that wasn't my view,
Speaker 1: but those children became my patients, and so I felt
Speaker 1: that every single one of their lives would be you know,
Speaker 1: if they were lost, it would be a complete disaster
Speaker 1: from my point of view, and yet at some level
Speaker 1: I expected that to happen to all of them. So
Speaker 1: can you tell us about what that first day's rescue
Speaker 1: operation looked like. The plan was that myself and the
Speaker 1: four British divers who were going to be responsible for
Speaker 1: the children would swim all the way through to chamber nine,
Speaker 1: and then I would anesthetize each boy one at a time,
Speaker 1: and one of the British divers would help me finished
Speaker 1: dressing them in the diving gear, the full face mask,
Speaker 1: a cylinder of oxygen would be strapped to their chest,
Speaker 1: and whilst they were doing that, I'd do some final
Speaker 1: tests on the anesthetized boy, So I'd roll him over
Speaker 1: and put his face in the water, and then pretty
Speaker 1: quickly lift him up again, just to make sure no
Speaker 1: water was getting into the mask. Repeat that for a
Speaker 1: bit longer and a bit longer again. And it's hard
Speaker 1: to describe how that felt, especially that first time I
Speaker 1: pushed a boy's face into the water as a human,
Speaker 1: let alone as a healthcare worker. That just felt wrong
Speaker 1: on so many levels, and the second thing we decided
Speaker 1: to do was to restrain the boys to make them
Speaker 1: into a kind of a nice neat package so they
Speaker 1: would be easy to move through the cave. So to
Speaker 1: do that, we had already put cable ties or zip
Speaker 1: ties around the wrists of the boys, and then we
Speaker 1: just had to put their hands behind their back and
Speaker 1: clip them together with a carabine or climbing carabina, and
Speaker 1: then also wrap some rubber bungee cord around their ankles
Speaker 1: to tie their ankles together, and thus just making them
Speaker 1: into a like a dart shape which would be easy
Speaker 1: to move through the cave without their arms flailing around
Speaker 1: and getting tangled up or knocked on and so forth.
Speaker 1: So we ended up calling it the Stanton Inert Patient
Speaker 1: Package the SIP, and I think that was part of
Speaker 1: our mental strategy to again make these things, these packages
Speaker 1: seem less like human beings but more like stuff we
Speaker 1: were moving through caves, which we were very familiar with doing.
Speaker 1: You know, we're often moving large bits of equipment or
Speaker 1: tubes full of food or provisions through underwater sections of caves.
Speaker 1: So to make the children seem like they were a
Speaker 1: bit of equipment or something I think was a very
Speaker 1: good strategy for us to be able to disconnect a
Speaker 1: little bit from the you know, the horror of what
Speaker 1: we were doing. Yeah, so the first three boys, you're
Speaker 1: getting positive feedback from Rick that the boys are doing well.
Speaker 1: But the fourth boy, who's the final boy that you
Speaker 1: plan to rescue that day, his name is Nate. You
Speaker 1: notice that he's not breathing properly. I noticed that night
Speaker 1: was one of the boys who had a bit of
Speaker 1: a cough, bit of a chest infection. And it's not
Speaker 1: unusual for children being anesthetized if they have chest infections,
Speaker 1: just to misbehave a bit, they sometimes hold their breath.
Speaker 1: There's some of the patients that give a a caesiologist's
Speaker 1: gray hairs, let's put it that way. And so I
Speaker 1: was a little bit concerned about this guy, but he
Speaker 1: went off to sleep. His airways seemed fine, and we
Speaker 1: prepared him in the usual manner, and then I sent
Speaker 1: Rick on his way with this boy. And Rick had
Speaker 1: to swim down the canal on the surface for that
Speaker 1: fifty meters or so before he submerged for the first
Speaker 1: time under the rock, and as he got to the
Speaker 1: far end of the canal, he actually stopped and called
Speaker 1: back to me and said, Harry, this boy's barely breathing.
Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to be breathing as much as he
Speaker 1: was when we left. And I said, just pause, Let's
Speaker 1: just count how many breaths you reckon in about a minute.
Speaker 1: So I waited and he said three, and I went, oh,
Speaker 1: that's not enough. And really there was nothing I could
Speaker 1: do for the boy anyway. If Rick brought him back
Speaker 1: to me. Every minute that he's in the water, he's
Speaker 1: getting colder, which was still a huge concern for me. Yes,
Speaker 1: we could drag him out of the water and wait
Speaker 1: till he wakes up a bit, but then we just
Speaker 1: have to be back where we started and repeat the
Speaker 1: whole thing. So I said to Rick, just keep going, mate,
Speaker 1: and I'll come as soon as I can. And so
Speaker 1: Rick pushed on, and I quickly got my gear on
Speaker 1: and said a quick goodbye to doctor Puck said hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll see you tomorrow, because, of course, each day we
Speaker 1: didn't know whether we would be able to return if
Speaker 1: the rain came overnight. And as fast as I could,
Speaker 1: I followed Rick through the cave, and as I just
Speaker 1: was about to surface in Chamber eight, after this twenty
Speaker 1: minute dive, I was reaching ahead. Of course, I can't
Speaker 1: see anything. I'm running my hand along the rope and
Speaker 1: I feel something in the water there and it felt like, honestly,
Speaker 1: it felt like a dead fish. I thought, what is that?
Speaker 1: And then I realized it was a foot, a child's
Speaker 1: foot underwater. And I didn't realize that I was actually
Speaker 1: at Chamber eight. I was still under water, so I thought, oh, no,
Speaker 1: that this is the child. The child has died and
Speaker 1: Rick has stopped to try and do something. But this
Speaker 1: felt like a dead foot to me. But then a
Speaker 1: moment later, my head popped out of the water because
Speaker 1: you know, I was in chamber eight, and you know,
Speaker 1: I could see Craig and Rick there and the boy's
Speaker 1: legs were still just in the water, and that's what
Speaker 1: I had felt. So I said, you guys all right,
Speaker 1: and Rick and Craig both said, no, this kid's not breathing,
Speaker 1: and so I said, quick, drag him up. I'll get
Speaker 1: my gear off and I'll come up and have a look.
Speaker 1: So they dragged him up out of the water and
Speaker 1: lay him on his side. I took my scuba tanks
Speaker 1: off and I sort of lay down behind the boy
Speaker 1: so I could put a hand in front of his mouth.
Speaker 1: I took the full face mask off for a moment
Speaker 1: because I couldn't hear any breathing through the regulator, and
Speaker 1: so I think we rolled him on his back. I
Speaker 1: had to look at his face. He looked really blue
Speaker 1: to me, and I thought, this is it. You know,
Speaker 1: this boy is either arrested or is about to arrest,
Speaker 1: and he looks terrible. So I was just about to
Speaker 1: start to give him mouth to mouth when I thought,
Speaker 1: I'll just try and open his airway by pushing behind
Speaker 1: the corners of his jaw. What's called a jaw thrust,
Speaker 1: and that's very forceful maneuver which will open the airway,
Speaker 1: but it's also very stimulating. It's quite painful if you'd
Speaker 1: do it someone who's not asleep. And that stimulus was
Speaker 1: enough to make the boy take a breath, and then
Speaker 1: very quickly he started breathing regularly, and in fact, very
Speaker 1: quickly after that he started to rouse and wriggle around,
Speaker 1: and so very shortly afterwards we had to give him
Speaker 1: another dose of ketamine to put him back to sleep
Speaker 1: again so that Rick could continue on his way. I
Speaker 1: think it was a combination of maybe he had a
Speaker 1: bit too much ketamine for the first dose. He was
Speaker 1: very small, boy, it was cold, he had this chest infection,
Speaker 1: you know, a number of factors which just meant we
Speaker 1: got the dose a bit wrong probably or I got
Speaker 1: the dose a bit wrong and a bit of a
Speaker 1: near miss on that first day. Yeah. So, so you
Speaker 1: dive out of the cave on day one and you're
Speaker 1: greeted by the news that all four rescues were ultimately successful, right,
Speaker 1: which which must feel astonishing, right given given that people
Speaker 1: were saying, look, even one life saved is a miracle.
Speaker 1: How do you How do you feel when you hear
Speaker 1: that news? I mean, do you feel reassurance? Are you
Speaker 1: or are you thinking this was just a fluke? You know,
Speaker 1: I can imagine a range of emotional responses to this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my first response was wow, that's amazing. My immediate response thereafterwards,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Now we've got to do it again.
Speaker 1: And then again. We had two more days of this,
Speaker 1: and that night I actually was filled with more dread
Speaker 1: and fear than I had felt the entire rescue up
Speaker 1: to that point, because for some reason I convinced myself
Speaker 1: that I don't know how we got away with this
Speaker 1: on day one, but day two, my instincts are going
Speaker 1: to be correct, and that these boys are going to
Speaker 1: start dying. And what's more, I think if you have
Speaker 1: success early on, expectations have then changed. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: imagine it's not just everyone else's expectations that have changed,
Speaker 1: it's your own expectations that have changed. Yeah. Well, you
Speaker 1: now know where the bar has been set, and you
Speaker 1: know that you have to continue performing. And I have
Speaker 1: to say by this stage also, there's a significant amount
Speaker 1: of fatigue and exhaustion starting to creep in because we're
Speaker 1: getting very little sleep each night. We're lying in the
Speaker 1: hotel room listening to the rain on the roof, wondering
Speaker 1: if that's, you know, spelling the end of the rescue
Speaker 1: and the remaining children and the Thai Navy seals again
Speaker 1: will be doomed to perish in the cave. And that's
Speaker 1: the way I was feeling. Knowing that what success can
Speaker 1: two expectations actually made me really really worried for the
Speaker 1: next day because I was still convinced that this should
Speaker 1: not be working, and I couldn't explain how it was working,
Speaker 1: to be honest, So what were those next two days,
Speaker 1: like I think, you know, it's just in a way,
Speaker 1: it was another day at the office, you know, we
Speaker 1: had a job to do. So yeah, I was okay again.
Speaker 1: And then that night, of course, when I found that
Speaker 1: another four children had survived, well, then the danger becomes complacency,
Speaker 1: of course, and for D three. Yeah, and we had
Speaker 1: a big chat that night. We all sat around and
Speaker 1: the main talk was about let's not drop the ball
Speaker 1: tomorrow because we've still got five to go, and one
Speaker 1: of them you know, as the coach, and we need
Speaker 1: to get all five of them out and that's that's
Speaker 1: one more than we've done before. So there was quite
Speaker 1: a bit of readjusting of the plan in terms of
Speaker 1: personnel and equipment and stuff to talk through that night.
Speaker 1: So walk me through that final that final day. You've
Speaker 1: got five people you need to rescue. There's also the
Speaker 1: tiny seals in their doctor puck, all of you divers
Speaker 1: have to leave. Yeah, to tell me about that final day.
Speaker 1: That third day, the rains had really started to build
Speaker 1: and it was a very sleepless night listening to the
Speaker 1: really heavy rain on the roof of the hotels. So
Speaker 1: we were very worried about the state of the cave,
Speaker 1: and we felt that it was just on the verge
Speaker 1: of flooding again. So we made a bit of a
Speaker 1: pact between ourselves that as we walked past early in
Speaker 1: the cave, there are a couple of measuring sticks in
Speaker 1: the water. We made a decision, I guess that if
Speaker 1: we saw those measuring sticks go up even by one centimeter,
Speaker 1: then we wouldn't continue into the cave that day because
Speaker 1: the concern was that a major flood pulse could come
Speaker 1: through the cave like flushing a toilet basically, and it
Speaker 1: would be very dangerous. So we were being very vigilant
Speaker 1: about the water levels and it wasn't falling, but it
Speaker 1: didn't go up, so we were okay. Well, at the
Speaker 1: end of day three, right you're you're greeted by the
Speaker 1: news the twelve boys survived, the coach survived, the Tavy
Speaker 1: Seals are out. Doctor Puck, the tie doctor, who is
Speaker 1: also an evyl oh Man. He's unbelievable. He's a Navy Seal,
Speaker 1: he's an Airborne Special Forces, he's the King. Seems amazing.
Speaker 1: What what did it feel like to have accomplished this mission?
Speaker 1: It's just extraordinary. As a lay person, it is extraordinary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Chamber three in the cave is this big gymnasium sized
Speaker 1: chamber what what people are probably imagining caves look like.
Speaker 1: And all the divers congregated in this chamber and standing
Speaker 1: around just kind of like stunned mullets, just standing there
Speaker 1: staring at each other, smiling the stupid grins on their faces,
Speaker 1: but not really knowing what to say, and just sort
Speaker 1: of letting this all sink in. And you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of the ties which cheering and clapping, and you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a few tiers there, but honestly,
Speaker 1: we were so exhausted and so stunned with this outcome.
Speaker 1: Though I don't think anyone really talked very much. And
Speaker 1: one of the American guys seemed to produce this mysterious
Speaker 1: bottle of Jack Daniels, and so we all had a
Speaker 1: little one of those tiny little paper cups that you
Speaker 1: get given your tablets in we all had a little
Speaker 1: paper cup full of Jack Daniels, and yeah, it was
Speaker 1: just an extraordinary feeling without anyone really vocalizing very much.
Speaker 1: And then we all started to head out of the cave,
Speaker 1: and my clear memory of that was this tribute to
Speaker 1: everyone who was coming out of the cave, by every
Speaker 1: volunteer who was on the ground lining up making a
Speaker 1: column that we had to walk through, and every single
Speaker 1: one of them wanting to shake your hand and slap
Speaker 1: you on the back. And the next day I remember
Speaker 1: waking up thinking, oh my god, my hand is so sore.
Speaker 1: It's like I remember that I've shaken hands with about
Speaker 1: a thousand people and had a clap on the back.
Speaker 1: So that was exceptional. And everyone cheering and clapping and
Speaker 1: get to the end of that line and then you
Speaker 1: joined the queue on the end and do the same
Speaker 1: for the next coming out. It was That was absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 1: It was great, But there was no real celebration that night.
Speaker 1: Everyone was so tired. I think we had a couple
Speaker 1: of drinks and then I said, I got to go
Speaker 1: to bed. I'm finished. You had a chance to meet
Speaker 1: the kids in the hospital. Was that the following day? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The next day? Oh wow, tell me about what that
Speaker 1: was like for them to have to meet you in
Speaker 1: more natural settings, for you to meet them in this environment.
Speaker 1: I couldn't leave Thailand without seeing these children. So we
Speaker 1: did this ward round, I suppose going around one by one.
Speaker 1: They're all in their beds, they're all eating food. They
Speaker 1: all looked so happy, they all looked incredibly well, they're
Speaker 1: all awake and warm. And doctor Puck was in there,
Speaker 1: the coach was in there, the other Navy seals were
Speaker 1: all in their and yeah, we just went round one
Speaker 1: by one with an interpreter and just set alow. And
Speaker 1: you know, the kids were very shy now that it
Speaker 1: was kind of one on one and this big entourage
Speaker 1: was coming around. They looked just as stunned as we were,
Speaker 1: I think, But it was very special. And a couple
Speaker 1: of the kids in particular just shaking hands with them,
Speaker 1: and I've got some really nice photographs from that moment.
Speaker 1: And then doctor Puck saying him in there, he actually
Speaker 1: got out of his bed and walked up to me
Speaker 1: and we just embraced and yeah, that was that was
Speaker 1: a very special moment. It was good. I can't help
Speaker 1: but wonder how things would have been for you had
Speaker 1: things turned out slightly differently and that the kids had
Speaker 1: been severely injured or even died. The public's reaction, your
Speaker 1: own reaction would have been the complete opposite, right, even
Speaker 1: though it was the same decision making process. At play.
Speaker 1: I mean, we often assess the quality of our decisions
Speaker 1: based on their outcomes, not the actual quality of the
Speaker 1: decision making process. And so what that means is that
Speaker 1: chance can cut many ways, but we end up relying
Speaker 1: on chance to tell us, in turn how good the
Speaker 1: decision was. So at the end of the day, even
Speaker 1: if it had been a failure, your plan you came
Speaker 1: up with with your team may actually still have been
Speaker 1: the best plan. I mean, that's the interesting piece of
Speaker 1: all this. But maybe the water temperature was two degrees
Speaker 1: colder that day, right, maybe the currents were just slightly different,
Speaker 1: but it was still the best decision. I think about
Speaker 1: that a lot, and I think you've just summarized my
Speaker 1: views on it more eloquently than I could have myself,
Speaker 1: because you know, I'm quite cynical about some of the
Speaker 1: stuff that has happened to us subsequently. You know, the
Speaker 1: awards and the eccolades, and you know the label of
Speaker 1: hero and courage and all this stuff. And if even
Speaker 1: one of those children had died, the perception of us
Speaker 1: and the event would be wildly different, and certainly my
Speaker 1: judgment of myself would also be wildly different. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't think i'd be talking to you today. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: what did you learn from the boys soccer team? What
Speaker 1: lessons do they leave you with? Harry? I remember going
Speaker 1: to see them in hospital and have continued to think
Speaker 1: about this to this day, about the resilience and courage
Speaker 1: that those children were able to show. And I know
Speaker 1: from talking to them subsequently and talking to the coach
Speaker 1: and the Navy seals, that they had their very dark moments.
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, in the cave, after one day,
Speaker 1: two days, three days, how long can you maintain hope
Speaker 1: that you're ever going to see the outside world again?
Speaker 1: And so to sit there for nine days, essentially in
Speaker 1: the dark because they were being very careful to conserve
Speaker 1: what little light they had. They're permanently old and shivering.
Speaker 1: They're sitting on damp mud in shorts and a T shirt,
Speaker 1: no food at all, and I cannot imagine how you
Speaker 1: would maintain your morale under any circumstances for more than
Speaker 1: a day or two. And people die in that situation.
Speaker 1: They just literally give up hope and die. So there's
Speaker 1: something very special and unique about this group that were
Speaker 1: in that cave, and I don't know whether it's part
Speaker 1: of the Thai culture, that they just had total faith
Speaker 1: in their elders and in this case case the coach
Speaker 1: that he would keep them alive and protect them, or
Speaker 1: whether it's part of their Buddhist faith with the exception
Speaker 1: of one of the kids who was a Christian, or
Speaker 1: whether it's just the fact they're tough kids from the
Speaker 1: country who have had a hard upbringing and they're used
Speaker 1: to hardship. And I certainly think there's something very important
Speaker 1: in that I have nothing for respect for them. And
Speaker 1: when people try and call the divers heroes in this,
Speaker 1: you know, I just remind them that the cave diving,
Speaker 1: whilst it might seem quite horrific for some people who
Speaker 1: are listening, for us, it's actually a great experience that
Speaker 1: we enjoy doing. And if there's one thing perhaps I'm
Speaker 1: proud of for myself was to find the courage to
Speaker 1: proceed with the anesthetic plan, given that I didn't really
Speaker 1: expect it to work. But again, you know, to me,
Speaker 1: there was no choice because I didn't have the courage
Speaker 1: to walk away. So so I don't in any way
Speaker 1: feel like a hero, but I think those children and
Speaker 1: the coach are absolutely heroes, and the Thai Navy seals
Speaker 1: as well, you know, diving into that cave. You know
Speaker 1: that that shows real courage. Yeah. Look, I mean I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people listening to this will will
Speaker 1: be surprised by that and find it so interesting that
Speaker 1: the nasty geologist who's a father himself, right, you have
Speaker 1: three kids, who is naturally going to feel protective of
Speaker 1: these boys, is not making the message of all this
Speaker 1: Why the hell were you guys in a cave days
Speaker 1: before you knew you shouldn't have been? Right? And instead
Speaker 1: it is thank goodness these boys have built tough characters right,
Speaker 1: and have cultivated the kind of character that can help
Speaker 1: them persist through hard times. Because sure, lots of kids
Speaker 1: may not find themselves trapped in a Kiev, but we
Speaker 1: will all endure hardship. And building that big skin and
Speaker 1: that kind of resilience is is so important and so adaptive. Look,
Speaker 1: we all have a challenge coming our way at some
Speaker 1: point in our life, you know, whether it's a personal
Speaker 1: health challenge or a career or a relationship issue or
Speaker 1: something you know outside of our control. You know, having
Speaker 1: helped those people who live in war zones and you
Speaker 1: know don't have food on the table or roof over
Speaker 1: their heads. But there's no doubt that we need to
Speaker 1: maintain a bit of toughness and resilience because you never
Speaker 1: know when your personal challenges is coming. And that's why
Speaker 1: I continue to advocate for people to take risks and
Speaker 1: do things that are difficult and hard and uncomfortable. And
Speaker 1: you know, for most of us soft Westerners that means
Speaker 1: adventure sports or activities, or you know, putting yourself out
Speaker 1: there or challenging yourself in different ways, because I think
Speaker 1: you do need to continuously be challenged and life needs
Speaker 1: to be a bit hard from time to time to
Speaker 1: maintain and breed resilience and courage. It doesn't matter what
Speaker 1: as long as it fills you with a small sense
Speaker 1: of dread and fear, you know, it's probably good for you.
Speaker 1: You know the old cliche what doesn't kill you makes
Speaker 1: you stronger. There is a huge amount of truth in that,
Speaker 1: I'm sure. Hey, thanks for listening. That's a wrap on
Speaker 1: this season of a slight Change of Plans. We'll be
Speaker 1: back soon with more episodes. In the meantime, you can
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. You can
Speaker 1: get updates and a behind the scenes glimpse of a
Speaker 1: Slight Change and as always, if you have any ideas
Speaker 1: for future guests on the show, please let me know.
Speaker 1: See you soon. A Slight Change of Plans is created
Speaker 1: written an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. The Slight
Speaker 1: Change Family includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, Emily Rosteck
Speaker 1: our producer and fact checker, Jen Guera our senior editor,
Speaker 1: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, and Mia LaBelle, our executive producer.
Speaker 1: A special thanks to Kishell Williams for her help on
Speaker 1: this episode. Louis Skara wrote our theme song and Ginger
Speaker 1: Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to
Speaker 1: everyone there, including Nicole Morano, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Heather
Speaker 1: and Carly Niggliori, and of course a very special thanks
Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change of
Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at Doctor Maya Shunker. The coach actually
Speaker 1: came out first that day, and I didn't actually even
Speaker 1: realize that it was the coach until I started talking
Speaker 1: to him. He was sitting on my lap like one
Speaker 1: of the other boys and I was joking around with him,
Speaker 1: and it was doctor Park who said said, Harry, you
Speaker 1: realized that's the coach. So I'm joking around, talking to
Speaker 1: him like his little boy, and yeah, he's just twenty
Speaker 1: five year old man sitting on my lap. So that
Speaker 1: was another cause for a good laugh.