1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It was summer of twenty eighteen in Thailand when 2 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:36,316 Speaker 1: twelve boys from a soccer team in their coach ventured 3 00:00:36,356 --> 00:00:39,676 Speaker 1: into a local cave to go exploring. The boys were 4 00:00:39,756 --> 00:00:42,196 Speaker 1: deep within the cave when the area was hit by 5 00:00:42,196 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 1: a monsoon days earlier than expected. Water began flooding into 6 00:00:47,316 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: the cave at an alarming rate, and the boys soon 7 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:54,276 Speaker 1: found themselves trapped inside with no way out. The world 8 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 1: was transfixed as rescuers spent days trying to find the 9 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: boys soccer team, and remarkably they found them two and 10 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 1: a half miles deep within the cave and stationed together 11 00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 1: on a dry hill. But it was one thing to 12 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: find the boys and to send in medical or eating 13 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:13,116 Speaker 1: food to help keep them alive. Getting them out safely, though, 14 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:17,756 Speaker 1: that was an entirely different matter. Eventually, the rescue team 15 00:01:17,836 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 1: came up with a bold and risky plan and they 16 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:22,996 Speaker 1: shared it with the boys. They were just like, yep, 17 00:01:23,396 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: get us out of here. And I felt like at 18 00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:27,876 Speaker 1: that point I could have said tomorrow we're coming in. 19 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:29,916 Speaker 1: There'll be a flying carpet, you'll all sit on it 20 00:01:30,396 --> 00:01:32,356 Speaker 1: and we'll magic you out of the cave, and they 21 00:01:32,396 --> 00:01:34,516 Speaker 1: would have had the same response, because I think after 22 00:01:34,596 --> 00:01:37,276 Speaker 1: two weeks, yeah, I just want to get the hell 23 00:01:37,316 --> 00:01:39,876 Speaker 1: out of there. They just wanted someone to take charge 24 00:01:39,956 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 1: and get them out. That's doctor Richard Harris or Harry, 25 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:47,716 Speaker 1: the Australian doctor, an underwater cave explorer who had to 26 00:01:47,756 --> 00:01:50,516 Speaker 1: swim deep within the flooded cave to try and rescue 27 00:01:50,516 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 1: the boys. This is the moment of truth, when this 28 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:59,036 Speaker 1: whole fanciful idea will actually become reality. And I'm about 29 00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 1: to meet these children who I've heard so much about 30 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 1: and thought so much about for such a long time, 31 00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:07,676 Speaker 1: and now I'm going to see them face to face, 32 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:09,076 Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to make it to see. 33 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:19,236 Speaker 1: On today's episode a doctor Heath's an unexpected call. I'm 34 00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:21,796 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 35 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 36 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. By the time 37 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:45,716 Speaker 1: Harry got to Thailand, the soccer team had been stuck 38 00:02:45,756 --> 00:02:48,756 Speaker 1: in the cave for nearly two weeks and things were 39 00:02:48,836 --> 00:02:51,916 Speaker 1: looking bleak. The inside of the cave was like a 40 00:02:51,996 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 1: labyrinth miles long, flooded with murky and turbulent water and 41 00:02:56,436 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 1: full of narrow tunnels. One former Thai Navy seal had 42 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:04,596 Speaker 1: already died while navigating the flooded cave. The boys ranged 43 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 1: in age from eleven to sixteen, and in order to 44 00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:09,316 Speaker 1: get out of the cave, they would need to put 45 00:03:09,396 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 1: on oxygen mass and swim through highly complex submerge portions 46 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 1: of the cave. Experts worried that the boy's panic reflexes 47 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 1: would invariably kick in, which would lead them to tear 48 00:03:20,116 --> 00:03:24,796 Speaker 1: off their oxygen mass and potentially drown. Thai government officials 49 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:27,476 Speaker 1: in the military worked with experts from around the world 50 00:03:27,596 --> 00:03:30,196 Speaker 1: to explore every idea they could come up with to 51 00:03:30,276 --> 00:03:33,396 Speaker 1: save these boys, from trying to pump water out of 52 00:03:33,396 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 1: the cave to seeing if they could try to keep 53 00:03:35,956 --> 00:03:39,836 Speaker 1: them alive inside the cave until the monsoon season had passed. 54 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:43,236 Speaker 1: But for a variety of reasons, these ideas wouldn't work, 55 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:47,556 Speaker 1: and then finally they came up with a plan a 56 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 1: Hail Mary passed to rescue the soccer team. They would 57 00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:54,196 Speaker 1: innesetize the boys, fit them with an oxygen mask, and 58 00:03:54,276 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: then swim them out while they were fully unconscious. But 59 00:03:57,716 --> 00:03:59,756 Speaker 1: in order for it to work, they needed to find 60 00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:02,396 Speaker 1: someone with a specific set of skills to lead the 61 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 1: rescue mission. They needed to find someone who is an 62 00:04:05,516 --> 00:04:10,596 Speaker 1: expert cave diver and an anthesiologist. They needed my guest today, 63 00:04:11,036 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 1: Australian diver and doctor Harry. Harry and I started our 64 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:18,716 Speaker 1: conversation by talking about how he got involved with the 65 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:21,916 Speaker 1: Thai cave rescue mission in the first place. Harry had 66 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:24,476 Speaker 1: been finishing up with a patient in an operating room 67 00:04:24,516 --> 00:04:27,916 Speaker 1: in Australia when he got some texts. They were from 68 00:04:27,996 --> 00:04:31,236 Speaker 1: his friend Rick Stanton, a British cave diver who was 69 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:33,636 Speaker 1: already on the ground in Thailand trying to help with 70 00:04:33,716 --> 00:04:36,716 Speaker 1: the rescue. So it was about quarter to seven on 71 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:40,196 Speaker 1: that Thursday morning when Rick and I were exchanging texts, 72 00:04:40,436 --> 00:04:44,076 Speaker 1: and Rick was very despondent on that morning. He was 73 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 1: reinforcing his completely pessimistic outlook on that day, as he 74 00:04:50,236 --> 00:04:53,516 Speaker 1: had for several days about the possibility of getting these 75 00:04:53,596 --> 00:04:56,436 Speaker 1: children out. He was just really at the point where 76 00:04:56,476 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: he felt like the best thing he could do was 77 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 1: leave Thailand because he was so despondent that there was 78 00:05:01,756 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 1: zero chance of getting these children out. And then just 79 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:06,956 Speaker 1: at the end of the text message, he just threw 80 00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 1: in this one line about what do you think about 81 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:12,716 Speaker 1: sedating the children to bring them out? And I just 82 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 1: I looked at this message and I did a double 83 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 1: take because it had never occurred to me that someone 84 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:21,116 Speaker 1: would come up with an idea so preposterous and so 85 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:24,476 Speaker 1: out of left field. And so that's kind of where 86 00:05:24,716 --> 00:05:27,356 Speaker 1: the conversation finished earlier that morning, and I just replied 87 00:05:27,396 --> 00:05:30,156 Speaker 1: with one mind saying it's out of the question. And 88 00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:34,156 Speaker 1: I said, look, it's just a ridiculous idea. But I said, 89 00:05:34,196 --> 00:05:36,516 Speaker 1: if you'd like us to come to Thailand, maybe there's 90 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:38,116 Speaker 1: something I can do. I just had a sense that 91 00:05:38,236 --> 00:05:40,916 Speaker 1: I needed to be there and my skill set was 92 00:05:41,116 --> 00:05:44,876 Speaker 1: important for this rescue, and I said, perhaps I can 93 00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 1: swim to the end of the cave provide medical care 94 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,236 Speaker 1: for these children whilst you guys come up with a 95 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:54,916 Speaker 1: better idea. Basically, I see, and I know you know, 96 00:05:54,956 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 1: as far as you knew at the time, only one 97 00:05:56,636 --> 00:06:00,436 Speaker 1: person had ever been under water under anesthesia and survived, right, 98 00:06:00,516 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 1: So this was this was an idea that you rejected outright. 99 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:08,636 Speaker 1: And so tell me, as an experienced medical professional, as 100 00:06:08,676 --> 00:06:13,276 Speaker 1: someone who practices anesthesia, what were the risks associated with 101 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:17,716 Speaker 1: giving these boys and their coach anesthesia? In the keen environment. Well, 102 00:06:17,756 --> 00:06:19,236 Speaker 1: I don't think you have to be a cave diver 103 00:06:19,516 --> 00:06:25,116 Speaker 1: or an anesthesiologist to realize that submerging an unconscious person 104 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: for three hours and expecting that they're going to still 105 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:29,916 Speaker 1: be alive three hours later, you know, is fraught with peril. 106 00:06:30,116 --> 00:06:34,716 Speaker 1: So I thought that for sure, these kids will flood 107 00:06:34,796 --> 00:06:37,516 Speaker 1: the mask and drown inside their mask at some point 108 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:40,876 Speaker 1: over that three hour journey. But also I thought, even 109 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 1: if that doesn't happen, you know, at some stage their 110 00:06:44,996 --> 00:06:47,876 Speaker 1: head will just fall forward and they'll obstruct their airway. 111 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:50,036 Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who's done a first aid course knows 112 00:06:50,076 --> 00:06:52,756 Speaker 1: that an unconscious person we have to protect their airway 113 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 1: at all costs. And the third thing, I thought, well, 114 00:06:56,156 --> 00:06:58,396 Speaker 1: even if those two things don't happen at some point 115 00:06:58,436 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: in three hours, then they will slowly succumb to hypothermia. 116 00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: They just they'll dive cold basically, and under anesthesia, the 117 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:10,436 Speaker 1: water especially strips heat from your body very very rapidly, 118 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: and so over three hours I knew from my experience 119 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 1: in the operating theater and elsewhere, that your core temperature 120 00:07:17,316 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 1: will drop rapidly, and by the time they got out, 121 00:07:19,876 --> 00:07:22,276 Speaker 1: they would be dead from that alone. So yeah, it 122 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 1: was I had plenty of reason to think that there's 123 00:07:24,636 --> 00:07:27,236 Speaker 1: no way this could possibly work. Yeah, and there's also 124 00:07:27,276 --> 00:07:31,316 Speaker 1: the practical considerations of administering anesthesia in those conditions. Right, 125 00:07:31,356 --> 00:07:35,756 Speaker 1: there's germs in the water, there's improper lay, there's no 126 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:39,196 Speaker 1: light other than a headlamp. Right, So you're probably concerning 127 00:07:39,236 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 1: you might not even be able to see things clearly. 128 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 1: And so I imagine as a physician, all of that, 129 00:07:44,276 --> 00:07:48,556 Speaker 1: on top of everything you've just described, is just daunting. Yeah. 130 00:07:48,556 --> 00:07:51,316 Speaker 1: I hadn't even really got to think about the practical 131 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: logistics of administering the anesthetic. There were just so many 132 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:57,876 Speaker 1: theoretical concerns barring my thought processes about moving into that 133 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:01,876 Speaker 1: next stage of thinking how we'd approach it. But to 134 00:08:01,996 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 1: be honest, as it turned out, I was less concerned 135 00:08:05,156 --> 00:08:07,516 Speaker 1: about some of those practical issues because I have worked 136 00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:10,876 Speaker 1: in environments where I have administered anna sesia to people 137 00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:14,836 Speaker 1: in less than perfect conditions, and I've worked in remote 138 00:08:14,876 --> 00:08:19,756 Speaker 1: areas doing surgery. I've worked in helicopter rescue services where 139 00:08:19,796 --> 00:08:22,236 Speaker 1: you might be at the roadside in a ditch, administering 140 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:25,796 Speaker 1: those sorts of critical care procedures to very sick or 141 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:29,316 Speaker 1: injured patients, so that, per se didn't worry me as 142 00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 1: much as the theoretical concerns of the children being underwater. Yeah. So, 143 00:08:34,756 --> 00:08:38,676 Speaker 1: despite all your reservations, Harry, you end up choosing to 144 00:08:38,716 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 1: go to Thailand, and your wife Iona has a warning 145 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:44,956 Speaker 1: for you on the way out the door, because she's 146 00:08:45,036 --> 00:08:48,956 Speaker 1: very concerned about how this may affect your professional reputation 147 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: and your personal well being if things don't go well. Yeah. 148 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,116 Speaker 1: I guess I was still in that frame of mind where, 149 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:59,156 Speaker 1: like all adventurous young men, I was still thinking, this 150 00:08:59,316 --> 00:09:01,716 Speaker 1: is a bit of an adventure, and this will be 151 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 1: an exciting thing to be part of, and obviously it's 152 00:09:04,716 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 1: a very worthy cause. I don't really want to make 153 00:09:07,796 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 1: secrets about the fact that I was quite keen to 154 00:09:10,556 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 1: get over there because I've done all this training. I 155 00:09:13,116 --> 00:09:15,716 Speaker 1: felt like I had the expertise, and so I was 156 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:18,916 Speaker 1: showing perhaps a bit too much enthusiasm for the whole 157 00:09:19,596 --> 00:09:22,716 Speaker 1: the whole lark, and Fiona, being the sensible and smart woman, 158 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:24,996 Speaker 1: she has just pointed out a few home truths about 159 00:09:26,116 --> 00:09:29,996 Speaker 1: you know, what will happen to my career if these 160 00:09:30,076 --> 00:09:32,956 Speaker 1: boys die essentially under an anesthetic, which I will be 161 00:09:33,076 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 1: held without question, you know, singly responsible for How will 162 00:09:37,756 --> 00:09:40,956 Speaker 1: that affect my career, my life, how will that appear 163 00:09:41,036 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 1: in the media, and what will it do to my 164 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:47,196 Speaker 1: mental health? You know, being responsible for the lives of 165 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:51,116 Speaker 1: these kids. And you know, that was my first reality check, 166 00:09:51,396 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 1: I guess, and certainly took the edge off my enthusiasm 167 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,556 Speaker 1: and make me think a lot more seriously about you know, 168 00:09:57,636 --> 00:10:00,116 Speaker 1: what I was embarking on. And in fact, Rick Stanton 169 00:10:00,156 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 1: had said something a little bit similar to me on 170 00:10:02,036 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 1: the telephone just as we were about to ring off. 171 00:10:04,836 --> 00:10:07,156 Speaker 1: He said to me, you know, I know you're keen 172 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:09,476 Speaker 1: to get over here, but I'm just going to tell something. 173 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 1: You're likely to swim to the end of this cave 174 00:10:12,196 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: and meet these boys as I have, and at the 175 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: moment they're all very healthy and upbeat and happy looking children, 176 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:21,796 Speaker 1: and then most likely you and I are going to 177 00:10:21,836 --> 00:10:26,356 Speaker 1: swim away and leave them to die, So that don't 178 00:10:26,436 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 1: underestimate how unpleasant that that's going to be. So yeah, 179 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:33,556 Speaker 1: I'm surrounded by smart people, luckily, who have more insight 180 00:10:33,636 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 1: into some of the stuff than me. So yeah, it 181 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:39,596 Speaker 1: was that was the first moment that I had cause 182 00:10:39,676 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 1: to think about is this a smart thing to be 183 00:10:41,676 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: getting involved with? So you know, you heed the call 184 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 1: right and you end up going to Thailand. When you 185 00:10:49,596 --> 00:10:51,756 Speaker 1: land in Thailand and you meet your way to the 186 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 1: KIV site, what is the scene like there? Well, I've 187 00:10:56,596 --> 00:11:01,356 Speaker 1: been to major incidents and I've seen chaotic accident scenes 188 00:11:01,436 --> 00:11:04,076 Speaker 1: and so forth, but this was on such another level 189 00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:07,716 Speaker 1: like I've never experienced. And there's this sea of different 190 00:11:07,836 --> 00:11:11,276 Speaker 1: uniforms and people very busy marching back and forth, and 191 00:11:11,676 --> 00:11:15,156 Speaker 1: thousands of people and a whole infrastructure around that. You know, 192 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:18,716 Speaker 1: this village had popped up with people providing catering and 193 00:11:19,636 --> 00:11:22,076 Speaker 1: clothing and haircuts, whatever you needed. You know, it was 194 00:11:22,116 --> 00:11:25,796 Speaker 1: all there on site, and so it was. It was huge. 195 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:27,916 Speaker 1: I realized I've been dropped into the middle of something 196 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 1: very very big. But all I wanted to do is 197 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: find my British friends and talk talk caves. So I 198 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:36,596 Speaker 1: just put my head down and sprinted really away, searching 199 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 1: for the British divers, you know, find out for myself 200 00:11:39,516 --> 00:11:41,956 Speaker 1: what this cave was actually like, because that was my 201 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:45,236 Speaker 1: first responsibility was to my own safety and just find 202 00:11:45,276 --> 00:11:47,556 Speaker 1: out whether I was going to be safe in the cave, 203 00:11:47,676 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 1: because you know, when guys like Rick tell me that, 204 00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:51,916 Speaker 1: you know, oh, Harry, the caves it's a bit sporting, 205 00:11:51,996 --> 00:11:53,596 Speaker 1: but you'll be all right. You know how the British 206 00:11:53,596 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 1: are very understated. You know that is not reassuring to 207 00:11:57,116 --> 00:11:59,196 Speaker 1: me at all, because I've been cave diving with these 208 00:11:59,276 --> 00:12:03,036 Speaker 1: guys and in the world they are bloody good. So 209 00:12:03,436 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: you know, I've got to make sure that i can 210 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 1: get my large backside through this cave without endangering myself 211 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:13,276 Speaker 1: and therefore putting the mission at risk. Yeah, and you also, 212 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:15,916 Speaker 1: in addition to needing to see the cave firsthand and 213 00:12:15,996 --> 00:12:19,516 Speaker 1: also make sure that you were physically capable of navigating it, 214 00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:22,756 Speaker 1: you were absolutely adamant that you had the chance to 215 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:26,356 Speaker 1: meet the boys up close and personal. That first night 216 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:28,356 Speaker 1: that I did meet up with the British divers, there 217 00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:29,956 Speaker 1: was quite a lot of pressure on me not to 218 00:12:30,156 --> 00:12:32,436 Speaker 1: go into the cave and see the kids. They wanted 219 00:12:32,516 --> 00:12:35,636 Speaker 1: me to focus on finessing the plan and practicing with 220 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: some kids at the pool the next day. But I 221 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:40,676 Speaker 1: just had in my mind I had to actually swim 222 00:12:40,796 --> 00:12:44,556 Speaker 1: the cave to actually just see these kids for myself, 223 00:12:44,676 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 1: see the environment that they were in, and try and 224 00:12:48,756 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: make this at that point, completely ridiculous hypothetical idea about 225 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:58,276 Speaker 1: anesthetizing them into something a bit more concrete in my mind, 226 00:12:58,396 --> 00:13:00,836 Speaker 1: you know, I I had no idea whether I could 227 00:13:00,876 --> 00:13:04,396 Speaker 1: even contemplate it until I'd seen the whole thing for myself, 228 00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:06,516 Speaker 1: and then at least I would be able to talk 229 00:13:06,596 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 1: with some more authority about whether it was a idea 230 00:13:09,676 --> 00:13:12,236 Speaker 1: or whether it was something that I could be talked into. 231 00:13:12,476 --> 00:13:16,996 Speaker 1: So the next morning, Craig Challon, my good mate from Australia. 232 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: He had arrived a couple of hours after me the 233 00:13:19,876 --> 00:13:22,396 Speaker 1: evening before, and I just knew he was a guy 234 00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 1: who was completely unflappable, totally reliable in a crisis. I 235 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:29,236 Speaker 1: just wanted a trusted friend there with me by my side. 236 00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:31,636 Speaker 1: So anyway, Craig and I headed into the cave the 237 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 1: next morning. I mean, to dive into a cave which 238 00:13:35,676 --> 00:13:38,316 Speaker 1: is actively flooding is never a good idea. We would 239 00:13:38,356 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 1: never do that. So it was challenging and the flow 240 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:44,596 Speaker 1: was significant. It was still hard work pulling yourself along 241 00:13:44,636 --> 00:13:48,516 Speaker 1: the ropes into the flow. The water visibility was very poor. 242 00:13:48,756 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 1: There was parts of the cave where you had to 243 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: feel in front of you to feel the size and 244 00:13:54,476 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 1: shape of the little restrictive crack that you had to 245 00:13:57,636 --> 00:14:00,556 Speaker 1: post yourself through and then work out, okay, might have 246 00:14:00,636 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 1: to turn myself at forty five degree angle to fit 247 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 1: through there and crawl through with the rock touching your 248 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: front and your back. You'd be diving underneath. You'd pop 249 00:14:09,756 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 1: up into a canal section, so it's like a river 250 00:14:12,676 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 1: in an underground passage. You'd be wading or swimming through, 251 00:14:15,796 --> 00:14:18,756 Speaker 1: dragging cylinders and equipment through there. You might have to 252 00:14:18,796 --> 00:14:20,756 Speaker 1: climb out of the water, climb over the rocks for 253 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: a while with all your equipment again back into the water. 254 00:14:23,676 --> 00:14:26,116 Speaker 1: Off you go again. So about a three hour journey, 255 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:30,556 Speaker 1: and then the rope at the very end towards the 256 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:33,716 Speaker 1: children actually changes color to a much thinner blue rope. 257 00:14:34,076 --> 00:14:35,716 Speaker 1: And so I knew that we were getting close when 258 00:14:35,756 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 1: we found that rope. And at that point, just as 259 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 1: I see the shimmering surface just above me, the moment 260 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:45,516 Speaker 1: before my head comes up, I just I remember feeling 261 00:14:45,756 --> 00:14:49,036 Speaker 1: very very anxious, thinking this is it. This is the 262 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:53,716 Speaker 1: moment of truth, when this whole fanciful idea will actually 263 00:14:53,836 --> 00:14:57,356 Speaker 1: become reality. And I'm about to meet these children who 264 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:00,236 Speaker 1: I've heard so much about and thought so much about 265 00:15:00,316 --> 00:15:02,796 Speaker 1: for such a long time, and now I'm going to 266 00:15:02,836 --> 00:15:04,796 Speaker 1: see them face to face, and I'm going to have 267 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 1: to make a decision. And I think it was that 268 00:15:07,876 --> 00:15:10,876 Speaker 1: need to confront that that actually did freak me out 269 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 1: a bit. At that point, I remember being pretty pretty worried. Yeah. Wow. 270 00:15:16,836 --> 00:15:19,836 Speaker 1: From that point, we had to swim along the surface 271 00:15:19,876 --> 00:15:24,876 Speaker 1: of this quite deep river for maybe fifty meters or so, 272 00:15:25,556 --> 00:15:27,236 Speaker 1: and we came around the corner and we can then 273 00:15:27,316 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 1: see the lights on where the kids are. And as 274 00:15:30,876 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: soon as I saw the children, I started to immediately 275 00:15:33,836 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 1: relax and just go into that work mode. Okay, here 276 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:40,636 Speaker 1: are my patients. At last, we will say hello, the 277 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:43,396 Speaker 1: four Thai Navy seals are there, one of whom is 278 00:15:43,436 --> 00:15:46,596 Speaker 1: a doctor, doctor Puck, who speaks quite good English. So 279 00:15:47,116 --> 00:15:50,076 Speaker 1: I've got an English speaking colleague, which did so much 280 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:52,436 Speaker 1: for my nerves. I have to say. It was incredibly 281 00:15:52,516 --> 00:15:56,036 Speaker 1: reassuring to meet that guy and be able to discuss 282 00:15:56,116 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 1: the case, if you like, with him, like a corridor consultation. 283 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 1: And we parked all our diving gear opposite where the 284 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:05,316 Speaker 1: kids were, and then we approached and climbed out of 285 00:16:05,356 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 1: the water and hiked up this very steep, muddy, slippery hill, 286 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:11,876 Speaker 1: which was the first opportunity for the kids to see 287 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:14,236 Speaker 1: us in action and have a very good laugh at 288 00:16:14,276 --> 00:16:17,276 Speaker 1: our expense, because of course, these kids have been living 289 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:21,036 Speaker 1: on this hills, you know, for the last twelve thirteen 290 00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:24,436 Speaker 1: days by then, and they've got bare feet and their 291 00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:26,956 Speaker 1: skinny fit little kids, and they're just running up and 292 00:16:27,036 --> 00:16:29,436 Speaker 1: down the hill, whereas Craig and I, you know, middle 293 00:16:29,476 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 1: aged men were slipping and sliding, falling on their faces, 294 00:16:32,996 --> 00:16:35,596 Speaker 1: falling in the mud, and the kids are roaring with laughter. 295 00:16:35,636 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 1: They thought it was hilarious. So that was a great icebreaker. Oh, 296 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: nice comic relief, I love. Yeah. I think it was 297 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:43,996 Speaker 1: for all of us to be honest, and so we 298 00:16:44,116 --> 00:16:46,036 Speaker 1: were able to have a bit of a laugh about that. 299 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:50,316 Speaker 1: And how did you how did you find the boys 300 00:16:50,396 --> 00:16:52,596 Speaker 1: to be How did they seem physically, how did they 301 00:16:52,596 --> 00:16:56,076 Speaker 1: seem mentally? Well? My immediate sense was that they are 302 00:16:56,156 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: not on death's door. That was the first thing. I mean, 303 00:16:58,916 --> 00:17:00,956 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to expect. You know, what is 304 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:04,156 Speaker 1: a child, healthy child who goes into a cave and 305 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:06,436 Speaker 1: has no food for nine days? I mean, I didn't 306 00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: really have any experience of what that, yeah, duration fasting 307 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:14,596 Speaker 1: or some lie and all the angst. I didn't really 308 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:16,156 Speaker 1: have a feel for what they would do to a 309 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: child between the ages of eleven and sixteen. And they're 310 00:17:19,876 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 1: already skinny kids, and you know, they did look very 311 00:17:23,076 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: very thin to me. And some of them, you know, 312 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:27,356 Speaker 1: you see the pictures now, they just they're gaunt, their 313 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:29,836 Speaker 1: bones and sticking out of their face, and so they 314 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:32,796 Speaker 1: had they had lost a significant amount of weight. But 315 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:35,036 Speaker 1: on the other hand, they were all standing, most of 316 00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 1: them were smiling, they were talking. I noticed a couple 317 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 1: of them squabbling with each other, you know, having a 318 00:17:40,116 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 1: bit of a punch, and I thought, well, they looked 319 00:17:42,596 --> 00:17:45,676 Speaker 1: like normal kids, normal normal teenage boys, so they can't 320 00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: be too bad. And I kind of went to doctor 321 00:17:49,316 --> 00:17:51,796 Speaker 1: Puck in the first instance, and I, you know, we 322 00:17:51,876 --> 00:17:54,716 Speaker 1: had a brief chat to introduce ourselves, and I have 323 00:17:54,796 --> 00:17:56,596 Speaker 1: to say he seemed as relieved as I was to 324 00:17:56,956 --> 00:18:00,396 Speaker 1: have another medical person in there, and so I just 325 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:02,796 Speaker 1: I asked him tell me about the children in terms 326 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:04,636 Speaker 1: from a medical point of view. You know, they haven't 327 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 1: got any particular concerns. We sort of went through, system 328 00:18:07,676 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 1: by system how they're lungs, how's their skin? Have they 329 00:18:10,916 --> 00:18:14,596 Speaker 1: got any diarrhea? All those sorts of things, And essentially 330 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:16,196 Speaker 1: it seemed like a couple of the kids who I 331 00:18:16,236 --> 00:18:18,756 Speaker 1: could hear coughing, did have a bit of an early 332 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:22,716 Speaker 1: chest infection, which was of concern, but otherwise they were 333 00:18:22,756 --> 00:18:26,596 Speaker 1: in pretty good shape. The environment itself was putred, there's 334 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:31,156 Speaker 1: no getting away from the smell was apalling. I mean, 335 00:18:31,236 --> 00:18:33,796 Speaker 1: they'd been using this place as a toilet for the 336 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:37,876 Speaker 1: last nearly two weeks, and since food had been taken 337 00:18:38,116 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 1: in there, of course that had changed things up even further. 338 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:42,716 Speaker 1: But it seemed to me it was only a matter 339 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 1: of time before their health really deteriorated rapidly. And was 340 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: it doctor Park who shared the news with the boys 341 00:18:49,956 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 1: about what the proposed plan was. So I had prepared 342 00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:59,916 Speaker 1: myself by taking in a recipe which I got one 343 00:18:59,956 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 1: of the time medical people outside the entrance to write 344 00:19:02,796 --> 00:19:04,796 Speaker 1: for me, because I didn't know whether anyone would be 345 00:19:04,836 --> 00:19:09,396 Speaker 1: speaking English. So I gave doctor Park this piece of 346 00:19:09,436 --> 00:19:11,596 Speaker 1: paper and said would you read this out to everyone 347 00:19:11,876 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: in the room in tie And so he went step 348 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:17,316 Speaker 1: by step and in English. Basically what it said is 349 00:19:17,396 --> 00:19:21,876 Speaker 1: that tomorrow we hope to return, and we plan to 350 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 1: give each child a tablet which will make them feel 351 00:19:25,476 --> 00:19:28,396 Speaker 1: a little bit sleepy and relaxed. We will dress them 352 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 1: in diving gear. They will come down the hill and 353 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:34,676 Speaker 1: sit on doctor Harry's lap, and they will receive an 354 00:19:34,716 --> 00:19:38,476 Speaker 1: injection in each leg. The injections will make them fall asleep. 355 00:19:38,876 --> 00:19:41,196 Speaker 1: We'll finish dressing them in the diving gear and then 356 00:19:41,276 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 1: we'll swim them out of the cave whilst they're asleep. 357 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:47,276 Speaker 1: And that's pretty much it. And I think it says 358 00:19:47,316 --> 00:19:50,956 Speaker 1: a lot about doctor Puck's professionalism that, of course this 359 00:19:51,076 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: plan was as new to him as it was to 360 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:55,356 Speaker 1: the kids. Oh wow, yeah, that's right. And I'm watching 361 00:19:55,476 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: his face and halfway through he sort of gives me 362 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 1: the sideways look, but he didn't say anything. He didn't 363 00:20:03,116 --> 00:20:06,876 Speaker 1: throw himself to the ground screaming you're insane, Harris, You're insane, 364 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:10,436 Speaker 1: which is what I expected. It was very professional, very cool, 365 00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 1: and he just looked at me and then he kept reading. 366 00:20:12,836 --> 00:20:15,076 Speaker 1: And then I was watching the kid's faces as he 367 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 1: reached the end of the list, and I can tell 368 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:20,036 Speaker 1: you that all those children were just nodding as if 369 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: it was the most normal thing they'd ever heard, you know, 370 00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:26,796 Speaker 1: a couple of thumbs up again, no one collapsing in 371 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:30,636 Speaker 1: hysterics or crying or anything like that. They were just like, yep, 372 00:20:31,356 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 1: get us out of here. And I felt like at 373 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 1: that point I could have said tomorrow we're coming in. 374 00:20:35,956 --> 00:20:37,876 Speaker 1: There'll be a flying carpet, you'll all sit on it 375 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:40,316 Speaker 1: and we'll magic you out of the cave, and they 376 00:20:40,356 --> 00:20:42,436 Speaker 1: would have had the same response, because I think after 377 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: two weeks, I get the hell out of there. They 378 00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:48,036 Speaker 1: they just wanted someone to take charge and get them out. 379 00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:51,076 Speaker 1: So you went into the cave that day thinking okay, 380 00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:54,956 Speaker 1: I need to decide. What was there a specific moment 381 00:20:55,236 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 1: when you when you found that clarity and you thought, okay, 382 00:20:59,556 --> 00:21:03,396 Speaker 1: I'm in I'm going to do this. No, there wasn't. 383 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:07,316 Speaker 1: In fact, looking back, I can't remember that moment when 384 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 1: I had decided to do this. And maybe in retrospect 385 00:21:12,036 --> 00:21:14,436 Speaker 1: that happened on the aeroplane when I was flying over, 386 00:21:14,516 --> 00:21:17,876 Speaker 1: because I was making notes, you know, reading up about 387 00:21:17,916 --> 00:21:20,956 Speaker 1: all different drugs and you know, what will I use 388 00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 1: for this if I go ahead? You know, I was 389 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 1: ringing friends before I left Australia saying hey, if you 390 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:28,996 Speaker 1: were going to do this, what drugs would you use? 391 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 1: Just to see if anyone at a different or better 392 00:21:32,756 --> 00:21:37,876 Speaker 1: idea to mine. So maybe I had already decided at 393 00:21:37,916 --> 00:21:41,756 Speaker 1: some level, because I don't remember a point where, you know, 394 00:21:41,876 --> 00:21:43,756 Speaker 1: it just went yep, okay, I'll do it. It just 395 00:21:44,556 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 1: became assumed knowledge at some point in my mind. Yeah. 396 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:52,516 Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that in some way it 397 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:55,196 Speaker 1: was It was not an affirmative decision that you were 398 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 1: doing it. It was actually just the absence of deciding 399 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:00,036 Speaker 1: not to do it. You know that inertia was carrying 400 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:02,836 Speaker 1: you forward and then suddenly find yourself in this position 401 00:22:02,956 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 1: where you're actually executing on the job. Yeah, I think 402 00:22:06,196 --> 00:22:08,636 Speaker 1: that's right. I think I kept looking for reasons not 403 00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, And when the last one of 404 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:13,596 Speaker 1: those fell away, it was just left there on the table, 405 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:16,676 Speaker 1: and and I went, of course, I'm doing this. I 406 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:19,316 Speaker 1: probably always was. I don't know, but here I am. 407 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:26,356 Speaker 1: Let's go. We'll be right back. With a slight change 408 00:22:26,396 --> 00:22:40,956 Speaker 1: of plans. I'm talking with doctor Richard Harris or Harry, 409 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 1: about the dangerous rescue mission he and others went on 410 00:22:44,436 --> 00:22:47,396 Speaker 1: to save a boy's soccer team. The boys and their 411 00:22:47,436 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 1: coach were trapped deep within a flooded cave full of 412 00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:54,516 Speaker 1: narrow passageways and chambers. The plan was to innesthetize the boys, 413 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 1: fit them with an oxygen mask, and then swim them 414 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 1: out while they were fully unconscious. Each rescue would take 415 00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:03,116 Speaker 1: several hours, so they had to spread the mission out 416 00:23:03,196 --> 00:23:06,636 Speaker 1: over three days. The plan was for Harry, the British 417 00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:09,196 Speaker 1: diver Rick Stanton, and the rest of the team to 418 00:23:09,316 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: rescue four kids each day, plus the coach. There were, 419 00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:17,236 Speaker 1: of course, a number of unknowns and ethical considerations. Yeah, 420 00:23:17,276 --> 00:23:19,596 Speaker 1: this sort I've come to call the moral dilemmas of 421 00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:23,956 Speaker 1: the cave rescue, and there's a few actually, And the 422 00:23:24,196 --> 00:23:27,756 Speaker 1: first thing I vocalized to the British divers in one 423 00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:30,956 Speaker 1: of our early planning meetings was that what if the 424 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:34,796 Speaker 1: first one or two kids die, which I think they will, 425 00:23:35,796 --> 00:23:40,676 Speaker 1: we need a way of reassessing, regrouping and maybe changing 426 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:43,716 Speaker 1: something in the plan that had caused these deaths if 427 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:46,796 Speaker 1: there was a single point of failure, and so we 428 00:23:46,996 --> 00:23:49,196 Speaker 1: need to have a system in place where we can 429 00:23:49,276 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 1: kind of close the loop on the plan for the 430 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:54,156 Speaker 1: first couple of kids. So that was the first thing 431 00:23:54,436 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: that we had to think about, was how to manage 432 00:23:57,316 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 1: those early deaths if they occurred. The second thing I 433 00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:04,516 Speaker 1: said was, well, how many deaths will I be able 434 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:07,556 Speaker 1: to tolerate before I just cannot carry on. I mean, 435 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:10,516 Speaker 1: if on the first day, when I come out at 436 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:13,636 Speaker 1: the end of the day, one child died, or two children, 437 00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: or maybe all four, what am I going to do? 438 00:24:16,276 --> 00:24:17,916 Speaker 1: I don't think I can go back and repeat that 439 00:24:18,236 --> 00:24:23,436 Speaker 1: if the first four children have died. And they said 440 00:24:23,476 --> 00:24:25,596 Speaker 1: they were basically just going to pretty much drag me 441 00:24:25,636 --> 00:24:27,756 Speaker 1: back in there to repeat the second and the third 442 00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 1: days and until all the children were out one way 443 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 1: or the other. And we did talk about the fact 444 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:36,836 Speaker 1: that these kids had to come out and if they died, 445 00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 1: their bodies still had to be brought out for their parents. 446 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 1: So the British divers, whose job it was to take 447 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:44,956 Speaker 1: the boys all the way through the cave, they were 448 00:24:45,276 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 1: very clear in their minds that if the boy drowned 449 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:50,196 Speaker 1: halfway through, they just had to keep going and take 450 00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 1: the child's body out of The moral dilemmas for me 451 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,036 Speaker 1: was if there were any fatalities on that first day, 452 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:01,636 Speaker 1: what was I going to say to the boys who 453 00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 1: remained in the cave when I went back on day 454 00:25:04,076 --> 00:25:06,356 Speaker 1: two because it would be me that would be going 455 00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 1: back to see the kids and prepare them for the anesthesia. 456 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 1: And we decided that I was going to have to 457 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 1: lie to the children because what I knew in my 458 00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:21,276 Speaker 1: heart was there was no way I could drag a child, 459 00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:23,956 Speaker 1: kicking and screaming, down to the water's edge and assault 460 00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:28,236 Speaker 1: them with a syringeful of ketamine to anesthetize them to 461 00:25:28,356 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 1: send them on their way. So I had to have 462 00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:34,916 Speaker 1: their cooperation to be able to do that. And I 463 00:25:35,036 --> 00:25:37,396 Speaker 1: don't know whether I would be capable of telling that 464 00:25:37,516 --> 00:25:40,516 Speaker 1: lie to my patients, but that was what was in 465 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:42,636 Speaker 1: my mind that I would have to do if any 466 00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:46,516 Speaker 1: of the boys died. Yeah, just to like you said, 467 00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: keep morale high and at least increase the odds that 468 00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: whoever could be saved could be saved, right, I mean, 469 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:56,036 Speaker 1: what other options do you have? And the view of 470 00:25:56,116 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 1: the big meeting that we had the night before the 471 00:25:58,516 --> 00:26:00,476 Speaker 1: big rescue day was that, you know, even if we 472 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:02,756 Speaker 1: get a couple of these kids out alive, the mission 473 00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,756 Speaker 1: will be considered a success. Now that wasn't my view, 474 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:14,796 Speaker 1: but those children became my patients, and so I felt 475 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:18,596 Speaker 1: that every single one of their lives would be you know, 476 00:26:18,676 --> 00:26:20,676 Speaker 1: if they were lost, it would be a complete disaster 477 00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:23,676 Speaker 1: from my point of view, and yet at some level 478 00:26:23,676 --> 00:26:25,836 Speaker 1: I expected that to happen to all of them. So 479 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:31,556 Speaker 1: can you tell us about what that first day's rescue 480 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:35,756 Speaker 1: operation looked like. The plan was that myself and the 481 00:26:35,836 --> 00:26:38,276 Speaker 1: four British divers who were going to be responsible for 482 00:26:38,316 --> 00:26:41,836 Speaker 1: the children would swim all the way through to chamber nine, 483 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:46,756 Speaker 1: and then I would anesthetize each boy one at a time, 484 00:26:47,196 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 1: and one of the British divers would help me finished 485 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:53,276 Speaker 1: dressing them in the diving gear, the full face mask, 486 00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:56,516 Speaker 1: a cylinder of oxygen would be strapped to their chest, 487 00:26:57,116 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: and whilst they were doing that, I'd do some final 488 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:03,036 Speaker 1: tests on the anesthetized boy, So I'd roll him over 489 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:06,276 Speaker 1: and put his face in the water, and then pretty 490 00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:08,636 Speaker 1: quickly lift him up again, just to make sure no 491 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:11,796 Speaker 1: water was getting into the mask. Repeat that for a 492 00:27:11,876 --> 00:27:14,756 Speaker 1: bit longer and a bit longer again. And it's hard 493 00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 1: to describe how that felt, especially that first time I 494 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:24,796 Speaker 1: pushed a boy's face into the water as a human, 495 00:27:25,116 --> 00:27:29,356 Speaker 1: let alone as a healthcare worker. That just felt wrong 496 00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:32,796 Speaker 1: on so many levels, and the second thing we decided 497 00:27:32,876 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: to do was to restrain the boys to make them 498 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:38,596 Speaker 1: into a kind of a nice neat package so they 499 00:27:38,596 --> 00:27:41,316 Speaker 1: would be easy to move through the cave. So to 500 00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 1: do that, we had already put cable ties or zip 501 00:27:43,996 --> 00:27:46,756 Speaker 1: ties around the wrists of the boys, and then we 502 00:27:46,876 --> 00:27:48,796 Speaker 1: just had to put their hands behind their back and 503 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:53,476 Speaker 1: clip them together with a carabine or climbing carabina, and 504 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:58,556 Speaker 1: then also wrap some rubber bungee cord around their ankles 505 00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:01,596 Speaker 1: to tie their ankles together, and thus just making them 506 00:28:01,636 --> 00:28:04,436 Speaker 1: into a like a dart shape which would be easy 507 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:06,916 Speaker 1: to move through the cave without their arms flailing around 508 00:28:06,956 --> 00:28:09,996 Speaker 1: and getting tangled up or knocked on and so forth. 509 00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:15,516 Speaker 1: So we ended up calling it the Stanton Inert Patient 510 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:18,916 Speaker 1: Package the SIP, and I think that was part of 511 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:24,916 Speaker 1: our mental strategy to again make these things, these packages 512 00:28:24,996 --> 00:28:28,196 Speaker 1: seem less like human beings but more like stuff we 513 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:30,916 Speaker 1: were moving through caves, which we were very familiar with doing. 514 00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:34,556 Speaker 1: You know, we're often moving large bits of equipment or 515 00:28:34,676 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 1: tubes full of food or provisions through underwater sections of caves. 516 00:28:38,436 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 1: So to make the children seem like they were a 517 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:44,276 Speaker 1: bit of equipment or something I think was a very 518 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:46,476 Speaker 1: good strategy for us to be able to disconnect a 519 00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:50,156 Speaker 1: little bit from the you know, the horror of what 520 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:54,876 Speaker 1: we were doing. Yeah, so the first three boys, you're 521 00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:59,156 Speaker 1: getting positive feedback from Rick that the boys are doing well. 522 00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:02,276 Speaker 1: But the fourth boy, who's the final boy that you 523 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:06,116 Speaker 1: plan to rescue that day, his name is Nate. You 524 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:09,756 Speaker 1: notice that he's not breathing properly. I noticed that night 525 00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:11,036 Speaker 1: was one of the boys who had a bit of 526 00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:13,716 Speaker 1: a cough, bit of a chest infection. And it's not 527 00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:17,436 Speaker 1: unusual for children being anesthetized if they have chest infections, 528 00:29:17,556 --> 00:29:20,036 Speaker 1: just to misbehave a bit, they sometimes hold their breath. 529 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 1: There's some of the patients that give a a caesiologist's 530 00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:26,956 Speaker 1: gray hairs, let's put it that way. And so I 531 00:29:26,996 --> 00:29:28,636 Speaker 1: was a little bit concerned about this guy, but he 532 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:31,716 Speaker 1: went off to sleep. His airways seemed fine, and we 533 00:29:31,956 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 1: prepared him in the usual manner, and then I sent 534 00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:36,916 Speaker 1: Rick on his way with this boy. And Rick had 535 00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:39,196 Speaker 1: to swim down the canal on the surface for that 536 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,836 Speaker 1: fifty meters or so before he submerged for the first 537 00:29:41,916 --> 00:29:44,316 Speaker 1: time under the rock, and as he got to the 538 00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:47,796 Speaker 1: far end of the canal, he actually stopped and called 539 00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:51,036 Speaker 1: back to me and said, Harry, this boy's barely breathing. 540 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:52,836 Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to be breathing as much as he 541 00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:55,956 Speaker 1: was when we left. And I said, just pause, Let's 542 00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 1: just count how many breaths you reckon in about a minute. 543 00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:02,236 Speaker 1: So I waited and he said three, and I went, oh, 544 00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:05,876 Speaker 1: that's not enough. And really there was nothing I could 545 00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:08,476 Speaker 1: do for the boy anyway. If Rick brought him back 546 00:30:08,516 --> 00:30:10,436 Speaker 1: to me. Every minute that he's in the water, he's 547 00:30:10,476 --> 00:30:15,156 Speaker 1: getting colder, which was still a huge concern for me. Yes, 548 00:30:15,236 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 1: we could drag him out of the water and wait 549 00:30:17,316 --> 00:30:18,956 Speaker 1: till he wakes up a bit, but then we just 550 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:21,356 Speaker 1: have to be back where we started and repeat the 551 00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:24,956 Speaker 1: whole thing. So I said to Rick, just keep going, mate, 552 00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:27,556 Speaker 1: and I'll come as soon as I can. And so 553 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:31,716 Speaker 1: Rick pushed on, and I quickly got my gear on 554 00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 1: and said a quick goodbye to doctor Puck said hopefully 555 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:37,396 Speaker 1: we'll see you tomorrow, because, of course, each day we 556 00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:39,556 Speaker 1: didn't know whether we would be able to return if 557 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:43,956 Speaker 1: the rain came overnight. And as fast as I could, 558 00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:49,196 Speaker 1: I followed Rick through the cave, and as I just 559 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 1: was about to surface in Chamber eight, after this twenty 560 00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:55,836 Speaker 1: minute dive, I was reaching ahead. Of course, I can't 561 00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 1: see anything. I'm running my hand along the rope and 562 00:30:57,996 --> 00:31:01,716 Speaker 1: I feel something in the water there and it felt like, honestly, 563 00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 1: it felt like a dead fish. I thought, what is that? 564 00:31:05,276 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 1: And then I realized it was a foot, a child's 565 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:10,596 Speaker 1: foot underwater. And I didn't realize that I was actually 566 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:13,156 Speaker 1: at Chamber eight. I was still under water, so I thought, oh, no, 567 00:31:13,436 --> 00:31:15,876 Speaker 1: that this is the child. The child has died and 568 00:31:15,996 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 1: Rick has stopped to try and do something. But this 569 00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:22,796 Speaker 1: felt like a dead foot to me. But then a 570 00:31:22,956 --> 00:31:25,476 Speaker 1: moment later, my head popped out of the water because 571 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:28,716 Speaker 1: you know, I was in chamber eight, and you know, 572 00:31:28,756 --> 00:31:32,356 Speaker 1: I could see Craig and Rick there and the boy's 573 00:31:32,436 --> 00:31:34,476 Speaker 1: legs were still just in the water, and that's what 574 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 1: I had felt. So I said, you guys all right, 575 00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:40,756 Speaker 1: and Rick and Craig both said, no, this kid's not breathing, 576 00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:43,396 Speaker 1: and so I said, quick, drag him up. I'll get 577 00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:44,996 Speaker 1: my gear off and I'll come up and have a look. 578 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:48,116 Speaker 1: So they dragged him up out of the water and 579 00:31:48,476 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 1: lay him on his side. I took my scuba tanks 580 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:54,356 Speaker 1: off and I sort of lay down behind the boy 581 00:31:54,476 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 1: so I could put a hand in front of his mouth. 582 00:31:57,076 --> 00:32:00,036 Speaker 1: I took the full face mask off for a moment 583 00:32:00,076 --> 00:32:03,396 Speaker 1: because I couldn't hear any breathing through the regulator, and 584 00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:06,996 Speaker 1: so I think we rolled him on his back. I 585 00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:08,836 Speaker 1: had to look at his face. He looked really blue 586 00:32:08,916 --> 00:32:11,596 Speaker 1: to me, and I thought, this is it. You know, 587 00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,316 Speaker 1: this boy is either arrested or is about to arrest, 588 00:32:15,396 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 1: and he looks terrible. So I was just about to 589 00:32:18,396 --> 00:32:20,676 Speaker 1: start to give him mouth to mouth when I thought, 590 00:32:20,716 --> 00:32:24,516 Speaker 1: I'll just try and open his airway by pushing behind 591 00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:27,756 Speaker 1: the corners of his jaw. What's called a jaw thrust, 592 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:31,996 Speaker 1: and that's very forceful maneuver which will open the airway, 593 00:32:32,036 --> 00:32:34,476 Speaker 1: but it's also very stimulating. It's quite painful if you'd 594 00:32:34,916 --> 00:32:38,036 Speaker 1: do it someone who's not asleep. And that stimulus was 595 00:32:38,116 --> 00:32:40,196 Speaker 1: enough to make the boy take a breath, and then 596 00:32:40,356 --> 00:32:43,516 Speaker 1: very quickly he started breathing regularly, and in fact, very 597 00:32:43,596 --> 00:32:46,316 Speaker 1: quickly after that he started to rouse and wriggle around, 598 00:32:46,876 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 1: and so very shortly afterwards we had to give him 599 00:32:49,516 --> 00:32:51,676 Speaker 1: another dose of ketamine to put him back to sleep 600 00:32:51,676 --> 00:32:54,676 Speaker 1: again so that Rick could continue on his way. I 601 00:32:54,836 --> 00:32:58,156 Speaker 1: think it was a combination of maybe he had a 602 00:32:58,196 --> 00:33:01,156 Speaker 1: bit too much ketamine for the first dose. He was 603 00:33:01,316 --> 00:33:04,116 Speaker 1: very small, boy, it was cold, he had this chest infection, 604 00:33:04,276 --> 00:33:05,996 Speaker 1: you know, a number of factors which just meant we 605 00:33:06,116 --> 00:33:07,676 Speaker 1: got the dose a bit wrong probably or I got 606 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:09,876 Speaker 1: the dose a bit wrong and a bit of a 607 00:33:09,956 --> 00:33:14,876 Speaker 1: near miss on that first day. Yeah. So, so you 608 00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:17,116 Speaker 1: dive out of the cave on day one and you're 609 00:33:17,196 --> 00:33:22,276 Speaker 1: greeted by the news that all four rescues were ultimately successful, right, 610 00:33:23,596 --> 00:33:29,676 Speaker 1: which which must feel astonishing, right given given that people 611 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:33,356 Speaker 1: were saying, look, even one life saved is a miracle. 612 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 1: How do you How do you feel when you hear 613 00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:38,676 Speaker 1: that news? I mean, do you feel reassurance? Are you 614 00:33:39,436 --> 00:33:41,916 Speaker 1: or are you thinking this was just a fluke? You know, 615 00:33:42,036 --> 00:33:47,036 Speaker 1: I can imagine a range of emotional responses to this. Yeah, 616 00:33:47,156 --> 00:33:51,716 Speaker 1: my first response was wow, that's amazing. My immediate response thereafterwards, 617 00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:53,636 Speaker 1: oh my god, Now we've got to do it again. 618 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:56,636 Speaker 1: And then again. We had two more days of this, 619 00:33:57,636 --> 00:34:02,436 Speaker 1: and that night I actually was filled with more dread 620 00:34:02,556 --> 00:34:05,676 Speaker 1: and fear than I had felt the entire rescue up 621 00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:10,516 Speaker 1: to that point, because for some reason I convinced myself 622 00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:12,476 Speaker 1: that I don't know how we got away with this 623 00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:16,556 Speaker 1: on day one, but day two, my instincts are going 624 00:34:16,636 --> 00:34:18,436 Speaker 1: to be correct, and that these boys are going to 625 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:22,716 Speaker 1: start dying. And what's more, I think if you have 626 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 1: success early on, expectations have then changed. Yeah, and I 627 00:34:28,396 --> 00:34:32,196 Speaker 1: imagine it's not just everyone else's expectations that have changed, 628 00:34:32,676 --> 00:34:36,036 Speaker 1: it's your own expectations that have changed. Yeah. Well, you 629 00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:39,876 Speaker 1: now know where the bar has been set, and you 630 00:34:39,996 --> 00:34:43,116 Speaker 1: know that you have to continue performing. And I have 631 00:34:43,196 --> 00:34:46,436 Speaker 1: to say by this stage also, there's a significant amount 632 00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:49,356 Speaker 1: of fatigue and exhaustion starting to creep in because we're 633 00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:51,596 Speaker 1: getting very little sleep each night. We're lying in the 634 00:34:51,676 --> 00:34:53,996 Speaker 1: hotel room listening to the rain on the roof, wondering 635 00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:56,436 Speaker 1: if that's, you know, spelling the end of the rescue 636 00:34:56,516 --> 00:34:59,756 Speaker 1: and the remaining children and the Thai Navy seals again 637 00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:04,996 Speaker 1: will be doomed to perish in the cave. And that's 638 00:35:05,036 --> 00:35:08,836 Speaker 1: the way I was feeling. Knowing that what success can 639 00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:12,756 Speaker 1: two expectations actually made me really really worried for the 640 00:35:12,836 --> 00:35:15,476 Speaker 1: next day because I was still convinced that this should 641 00:35:15,516 --> 00:35:18,596 Speaker 1: not be working, and I couldn't explain how it was working, 642 00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:23,516 Speaker 1: to be honest, So what were those next two days, 643 00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:26,276 Speaker 1: like I think, you know, it's just in a way, 644 00:35:26,316 --> 00:35:28,156 Speaker 1: it was another day at the office, you know, we 645 00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:31,036 Speaker 1: had a job to do. So yeah, I was okay again. 646 00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:33,356 Speaker 1: And then that night, of course, when I found that 647 00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:38,516 Speaker 1: another four children had survived, well, then the danger becomes complacency, 648 00:35:39,036 --> 00:35:42,156 Speaker 1: of course, and for D three. Yeah, and we had 649 00:35:42,196 --> 00:35:44,316 Speaker 1: a big chat that night. We all sat around and 650 00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:46,636 Speaker 1: the main talk was about let's not drop the ball 651 00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:49,996 Speaker 1: tomorrow because we've still got five to go, and one 652 00:35:50,036 --> 00:35:53,236 Speaker 1: of them you know, as the coach, and we need 653 00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:55,756 Speaker 1: to get all five of them out and that's that's 654 00:35:55,836 --> 00:35:57,756 Speaker 1: one more than we've done before. So there was quite 655 00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:00,316 Speaker 1: a bit of readjusting of the plan in terms of 656 00:36:00,396 --> 00:36:03,036 Speaker 1: personnel and equipment and stuff to talk through that night. 657 00:36:04,356 --> 00:36:07,836 Speaker 1: So walk me through that final that final day. You've 658 00:36:07,836 --> 00:36:10,836 Speaker 1: got five people you need to rescue. There's also the 659 00:36:10,916 --> 00:36:14,756 Speaker 1: tiny seals in their doctor puck, all of you divers 660 00:36:14,876 --> 00:36:17,956 Speaker 1: have to leave. Yeah, to tell me about that final day. 661 00:36:18,596 --> 00:36:21,716 Speaker 1: That third day, the rains had really started to build 662 00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:24,596 Speaker 1: and it was a very sleepless night listening to the 663 00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:27,156 Speaker 1: really heavy rain on the roof of the hotels. So 664 00:36:27,596 --> 00:36:30,236 Speaker 1: we were very worried about the state of the cave, 665 00:36:30,636 --> 00:36:32,756 Speaker 1: and we felt that it was just on the verge 666 00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:36,476 Speaker 1: of flooding again. So we made a bit of a 667 00:36:36,556 --> 00:36:40,636 Speaker 1: pact between ourselves that as we walked past early in 668 00:36:40,676 --> 00:36:42,596 Speaker 1: the cave, there are a couple of measuring sticks in 669 00:36:42,676 --> 00:36:46,036 Speaker 1: the water. We made a decision, I guess that if 670 00:36:46,356 --> 00:36:49,596 Speaker 1: we saw those measuring sticks go up even by one centimeter, 671 00:36:50,036 --> 00:36:53,116 Speaker 1: then we wouldn't continue into the cave that day because 672 00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:56,516 Speaker 1: the concern was that a major flood pulse could come 673 00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:59,196 Speaker 1: through the cave like flushing a toilet basically, and it 674 00:36:59,236 --> 00:37:02,196 Speaker 1: would be very dangerous. So we were being very vigilant 675 00:37:02,236 --> 00:37:05,316 Speaker 1: about the water levels and it wasn't falling, but it 676 00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:10,876 Speaker 1: didn't go up, so we were okay. Well, at the 677 00:37:10,956 --> 00:37:13,396 Speaker 1: end of day three, right you're you're greeted by the 678 00:37:13,476 --> 00:37:17,516 Speaker 1: news the twelve boys survived, the coach survived, the Tavy 679 00:37:17,556 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 1: Seals are out. Doctor Puck, the tie doctor, who is 680 00:37:20,356 --> 00:37:24,156 Speaker 1: also an evyl oh Man. He's unbelievable. He's a Navy Seal, 681 00:37:24,236 --> 00:37:28,076 Speaker 1: he's an Airborne Special Forces, he's the King. Seems amazing. 682 00:37:29,756 --> 00:37:33,156 Speaker 1: What what did it feel like to have accomplished this mission? 683 00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:39,396 Speaker 1: It's just extraordinary. As a lay person, it is extraordinary. Yeah, 684 00:37:40,476 --> 00:37:45,076 Speaker 1: Chamber three in the cave is this big gymnasium sized 685 00:37:45,596 --> 00:37:48,556 Speaker 1: chamber what what people are probably imagining caves look like. 686 00:37:49,596 --> 00:37:55,076 Speaker 1: And all the divers congregated in this chamber and standing 687 00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:58,636 Speaker 1: around just kind of like stunned mullets, just standing there 688 00:37:58,756 --> 00:38:03,276 Speaker 1: staring at each other, smiling the stupid grins on their faces, 689 00:38:03,356 --> 00:38:05,996 Speaker 1: but not really knowing what to say, and just sort 690 00:38:05,996 --> 00:38:08,116 Speaker 1: of letting this all sink in. And you know, a 691 00:38:08,156 --> 00:38:11,316 Speaker 1: lot of the ties which cheering and clapping, and you know, 692 00:38:11,356 --> 00:38:13,916 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a few tiers there, but honestly, 693 00:38:13,996 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: we were so exhausted and so stunned with this outcome. 694 00:38:19,196 --> 00:38:21,436 Speaker 1: Though I don't think anyone really talked very much. And 695 00:38:21,716 --> 00:38:25,116 Speaker 1: one of the American guys seemed to produce this mysterious 696 00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:27,156 Speaker 1: bottle of Jack Daniels, and so we all had a 697 00:38:27,196 --> 00:38:29,836 Speaker 1: little one of those tiny little paper cups that you 698 00:38:30,156 --> 00:38:32,396 Speaker 1: get given your tablets in we all had a little 699 00:38:32,436 --> 00:38:36,276 Speaker 1: paper cup full of Jack Daniels, and yeah, it was 700 00:38:36,356 --> 00:38:40,956 Speaker 1: just an extraordinary feeling without anyone really vocalizing very much. 701 00:38:42,676 --> 00:38:44,956 Speaker 1: And then we all started to head out of the cave, 702 00:38:45,596 --> 00:38:50,756 Speaker 1: and my clear memory of that was this tribute to 703 00:38:50,956 --> 00:38:54,276 Speaker 1: everyone who was coming out of the cave, by every 704 00:38:54,396 --> 00:38:57,556 Speaker 1: volunteer who was on the ground lining up making a 705 00:38:57,676 --> 00:39:00,156 Speaker 1: column that we had to walk through, and every single 706 00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:02,476 Speaker 1: one of them wanting to shake your hand and slap 707 00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:04,756 Speaker 1: you on the back. And the next day I remember 708 00:39:04,836 --> 00:39:07,556 Speaker 1: waking up thinking, oh my god, my hand is so sore. 709 00:39:07,716 --> 00:39:11,356 Speaker 1: It's like I remember that I've shaken hands with about 710 00:39:11,396 --> 00:39:13,796 Speaker 1: a thousand people and had a clap on the back. 711 00:39:13,916 --> 00:39:18,196 Speaker 1: So that was exceptional. And everyone cheering and clapping and 712 00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:20,356 Speaker 1: get to the end of that line and then you 713 00:39:20,516 --> 00:39:22,316 Speaker 1: joined the queue on the end and do the same 714 00:39:22,396 --> 00:39:25,756 Speaker 1: for the next coming out. It was That was absolutely wonderful. 715 00:39:25,796 --> 00:39:29,556 Speaker 1: It was great, But there was no real celebration that night. 716 00:39:29,636 --> 00:39:32,476 Speaker 1: Everyone was so tired. I think we had a couple 717 00:39:32,516 --> 00:39:34,796 Speaker 1: of drinks and then I said, I got to go 718 00:39:34,916 --> 00:39:38,636 Speaker 1: to bed. I'm finished. You had a chance to meet 719 00:39:38,676 --> 00:39:41,396 Speaker 1: the kids in the hospital. Was that the following day? Yeah? 720 00:39:41,596 --> 00:39:43,596 Speaker 1: The next day? Oh wow, tell me about what that 721 00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:45,916 Speaker 1: was like for them to have to meet you in 722 00:39:46,036 --> 00:39:49,396 Speaker 1: more natural settings, for you to meet them in this environment. 723 00:39:50,116 --> 00:39:53,396 Speaker 1: I couldn't leave Thailand without seeing these children. So we 724 00:39:53,516 --> 00:39:56,596 Speaker 1: did this ward round, I suppose going around one by one. 725 00:39:56,596 --> 00:39:58,876 Speaker 1: They're all in their beds, they're all eating food. They 726 00:39:58,916 --> 00:40:02,236 Speaker 1: all looked so happy, they all looked incredibly well, they're 727 00:40:02,236 --> 00:40:06,036 Speaker 1: all awake and warm. And doctor Puck was in there, 728 00:40:06,276 --> 00:40:08,636 Speaker 1: the coach was in there, the other Navy seals were 729 00:40:08,636 --> 00:40:11,316 Speaker 1: all in their and yeah, we just went round one 730 00:40:11,396 --> 00:40:13,716 Speaker 1: by one with an interpreter and just set alow. And 731 00:40:14,116 --> 00:40:17,636 Speaker 1: you know, the kids were very shy now that it 732 00:40:17,756 --> 00:40:19,796 Speaker 1: was kind of one on one and this big entourage 733 00:40:19,956 --> 00:40:22,836 Speaker 1: was coming around. They looked just as stunned as we were, 734 00:40:22,916 --> 00:40:25,036 Speaker 1: I think, But it was very special. And a couple 735 00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:28,276 Speaker 1: of the kids in particular just shaking hands with them, 736 00:40:28,356 --> 00:40:31,516 Speaker 1: and I've got some really nice photographs from that moment. 737 00:40:32,156 --> 00:40:37,076 Speaker 1: And then doctor Puck saying him in there, he actually 738 00:40:37,116 --> 00:40:38,756 Speaker 1: got out of his bed and walked up to me 739 00:40:38,796 --> 00:40:42,636 Speaker 1: and we just embraced and yeah, that was that was 740 00:40:42,716 --> 00:40:46,516 Speaker 1: a very special moment. It was good. I can't help 741 00:40:46,556 --> 00:40:50,356 Speaker 1: but wonder how things would have been for you had 742 00:40:50,396 --> 00:40:53,356 Speaker 1: things turned out slightly differently and that the kids had 743 00:40:53,396 --> 00:40:59,356 Speaker 1: been severely injured or even died. The public's reaction, your 744 00:40:59,396 --> 00:41:04,356 Speaker 1: own reaction would have been the complete opposite, right, even 745 00:41:04,436 --> 00:41:08,036 Speaker 1: though it was the same decision making process. At play. 746 00:41:09,196 --> 00:41:12,196 Speaker 1: I mean, we often assess the quality of our decisions 747 00:41:12,676 --> 00:41:17,076 Speaker 1: based on their outcomes, not the actual quality of the 748 00:41:17,156 --> 00:41:20,116 Speaker 1: decision making process. And so what that means is that 749 00:41:20,836 --> 00:41:23,476 Speaker 1: chance can cut many ways, but we end up relying 750 00:41:23,516 --> 00:41:25,716 Speaker 1: on chance to tell us, in turn how good the 751 00:41:25,756 --> 00:41:28,396 Speaker 1: decision was. So at the end of the day, even 752 00:41:28,476 --> 00:41:31,036 Speaker 1: if it had been a failure, your plan you came 753 00:41:31,116 --> 00:41:34,396 Speaker 1: up with with your team may actually still have been 754 00:41:34,436 --> 00:41:36,916 Speaker 1: the best plan. I mean, that's the interesting piece of 755 00:41:36,996 --> 00:41:39,996 Speaker 1: all this. But maybe the water temperature was two degrees 756 00:41:40,076 --> 00:41:43,716 Speaker 1: colder that day, right, maybe the currents were just slightly different, 757 00:41:44,396 --> 00:41:47,276 Speaker 1: but it was still the best decision. I think about 758 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:50,436 Speaker 1: that a lot, and I think you've just summarized my 759 00:41:50,596 --> 00:41:53,676 Speaker 1: views on it more eloquently than I could have myself, 760 00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:56,676 Speaker 1: because you know, I'm quite cynical about some of the 761 00:41:56,756 --> 00:41:58,756 Speaker 1: stuff that has happened to us subsequently. You know, the 762 00:41:58,876 --> 00:42:03,276 Speaker 1: awards and the eccolades, and you know the label of 763 00:42:03,436 --> 00:42:07,476 Speaker 1: hero and courage and all this stuff. And if even 764 00:42:07,556 --> 00:42:12,156 Speaker 1: one of those children had died, the perception of us 765 00:42:12,396 --> 00:42:15,716 Speaker 1: and the event would be wildly different, and certainly my 766 00:42:15,836 --> 00:42:18,156 Speaker 1: judgment of myself would also be wildly different. You know, 767 00:42:18,236 --> 00:42:21,036 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd be talking to you today. So, yeah, 768 00:42:22,156 --> 00:42:25,916 Speaker 1: what did you learn from the boys soccer team? What 769 00:42:26,116 --> 00:42:30,156 Speaker 1: lessons do they leave you with? Harry? I remember going 770 00:42:30,236 --> 00:42:33,556 Speaker 1: to see them in hospital and have continued to think 771 00:42:33,596 --> 00:42:38,076 Speaker 1: about this to this day, about the resilience and courage 772 00:42:38,156 --> 00:42:41,236 Speaker 1: that those children were able to show. And I know 773 00:42:41,436 --> 00:42:44,236 Speaker 1: from talking to them subsequently and talking to the coach 774 00:42:44,316 --> 00:42:47,076 Speaker 1: and the Navy seals, that they had their very dark moments. 775 00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:49,796 Speaker 1: Of course, you know, in the cave, after one day, 776 00:42:50,036 --> 00:42:53,636 Speaker 1: two days, three days, how long can you maintain hope 777 00:42:54,276 --> 00:42:57,436 Speaker 1: that you're ever going to see the outside world again? 778 00:42:58,076 --> 00:43:00,996 Speaker 1: And so to sit there for nine days, essentially in 779 00:43:01,116 --> 00:43:03,956 Speaker 1: the dark because they were being very careful to conserve 780 00:43:04,236 --> 00:43:10,076 Speaker 1: what little light they had. They're permanently old and shivering. 781 00:43:10,316 --> 00:43:14,156 Speaker 1: They're sitting on damp mud in shorts and a T shirt, 782 00:43:15,196 --> 00:43:21,436 Speaker 1: no food at all, and I cannot imagine how you 783 00:43:21,556 --> 00:43:24,716 Speaker 1: would maintain your morale under any circumstances for more than 784 00:43:24,796 --> 00:43:28,156 Speaker 1: a day or two. And people die in that situation. 785 00:43:28,236 --> 00:43:31,196 Speaker 1: They just literally give up hope and die. So there's 786 00:43:31,236 --> 00:43:34,276 Speaker 1: something very special and unique about this group that were 787 00:43:34,316 --> 00:43:37,476 Speaker 1: in that cave, and I don't know whether it's part 788 00:43:37,516 --> 00:43:40,076 Speaker 1: of the Thai culture, that they just had total faith 789 00:43:40,316 --> 00:43:43,236 Speaker 1: in their elders and in this case case the coach 790 00:43:43,356 --> 00:43:46,836 Speaker 1: that he would keep them alive and protect them, or 791 00:43:46,996 --> 00:43:50,516 Speaker 1: whether it's part of their Buddhist faith with the exception 792 00:43:50,596 --> 00:43:53,276 Speaker 1: of one of the kids who was a Christian, or 793 00:43:53,356 --> 00:43:55,676 Speaker 1: whether it's just the fact they're tough kids from the 794 00:43:55,796 --> 00:43:58,476 Speaker 1: country who have had a hard upbringing and they're used 795 00:43:58,476 --> 00:44:02,076 Speaker 1: to hardship. And I certainly think there's something very important 796 00:44:02,636 --> 00:44:05,276 Speaker 1: in that I have nothing for respect for them. And 797 00:44:05,436 --> 00:44:08,836 Speaker 1: when people try and call the divers heroes in this, 798 00:44:09,756 --> 00:44:11,836 Speaker 1: you know, I just remind them that the cave diving, 799 00:44:11,916 --> 00:44:15,156 Speaker 1: whilst it might seem quite horrific for some people who 800 00:44:15,196 --> 00:44:18,516 Speaker 1: are listening, for us, it's actually a great experience that 801 00:44:18,596 --> 00:44:21,556 Speaker 1: we enjoy doing. And if there's one thing perhaps I'm 802 00:44:21,796 --> 00:44:24,276 Speaker 1: proud of for myself was to find the courage to 803 00:44:24,956 --> 00:44:27,996 Speaker 1: proceed with the anesthetic plan, given that I didn't really 804 00:44:28,556 --> 00:44:31,036 Speaker 1: expect it to work. But again, you know, to me, 805 00:44:31,116 --> 00:44:33,556 Speaker 1: there was no choice because I didn't have the courage 806 00:44:33,596 --> 00:44:37,596 Speaker 1: to walk away. So so I don't in any way 807 00:44:37,636 --> 00:44:40,116 Speaker 1: feel like a hero, but I think those children and 808 00:44:40,236 --> 00:44:43,356 Speaker 1: the coach are absolutely heroes, and the Thai Navy seals 809 00:44:43,396 --> 00:44:45,756 Speaker 1: as well, you know, diving into that cave. You know 810 00:44:45,876 --> 00:44:48,516 Speaker 1: that that shows real courage. Yeah. Look, I mean I 811 00:44:48,636 --> 00:44:51,196 Speaker 1: think a lot of people listening to this will will 812 00:44:51,236 --> 00:44:54,756 Speaker 1: be surprised by that and find it so interesting that 813 00:44:55,476 --> 00:44:58,236 Speaker 1: the nasty geologist who's a father himself, right, you have 814 00:44:58,276 --> 00:45:00,556 Speaker 1: three kids, who is naturally going to feel protective of 815 00:45:00,596 --> 00:45:03,156 Speaker 1: these boys, is not making the message of all this 816 00:45:03,996 --> 00:45:06,196 Speaker 1: Why the hell were you guys in a cave days 817 00:45:06,236 --> 00:45:09,036 Speaker 1: before you knew you shouldn't have been? Right? And instead 818 00:45:09,116 --> 00:45:14,316 Speaker 1: it is thank goodness these boys have built tough characters right, 819 00:45:14,476 --> 00:45:17,396 Speaker 1: and have cultivated the kind of character that can help 820 00:45:17,436 --> 00:45:20,476 Speaker 1: them persist through hard times. Because sure, lots of kids 821 00:45:20,516 --> 00:45:23,316 Speaker 1: may not find themselves trapped in a Kiev, but we 822 00:45:23,396 --> 00:45:27,356 Speaker 1: will all endure hardship. And building that big skin and 823 00:45:27,636 --> 00:45:32,476 Speaker 1: that kind of resilience is is so important and so adaptive. Look, 824 00:45:32,516 --> 00:45:35,716 Speaker 1: we all have a challenge coming our way at some 825 00:45:35,836 --> 00:45:39,476 Speaker 1: point in our life, you know, whether it's a personal 826 00:45:40,356 --> 00:45:44,076 Speaker 1: health challenge or a career or a relationship issue or 827 00:45:44,196 --> 00:45:46,716 Speaker 1: something you know outside of our control. You know, having 828 00:45:46,796 --> 00:45:49,596 Speaker 1: helped those people who live in war zones and you 829 00:45:49,676 --> 00:45:52,076 Speaker 1: know don't have food on the table or roof over 830 00:45:52,156 --> 00:45:55,436 Speaker 1: their heads. But there's no doubt that we need to 831 00:45:55,756 --> 00:45:59,356 Speaker 1: maintain a bit of toughness and resilience because you never 832 00:45:59,436 --> 00:46:02,156 Speaker 1: know when your personal challenges is coming. And that's why 833 00:46:02,196 --> 00:46:05,916 Speaker 1: I continue to advocate for people to take risks and 834 00:46:06,316 --> 00:46:08,916 Speaker 1: do things that are difficult and hard and uncomfortable. And 835 00:46:09,596 --> 00:46:12,076 Speaker 1: you know, for most of us soft Westerners that means 836 00:46:12,396 --> 00:46:16,196 Speaker 1: adventure sports or activities, or you know, putting yourself out 837 00:46:16,236 --> 00:46:18,796 Speaker 1: there or challenging yourself in different ways, because I think 838 00:46:18,836 --> 00:46:22,876 Speaker 1: you do need to continuously be challenged and life needs 839 00:46:22,916 --> 00:46:25,076 Speaker 1: to be a bit hard from time to time to 840 00:46:25,996 --> 00:46:30,316 Speaker 1: maintain and breed resilience and courage. It doesn't matter what 841 00:46:30,476 --> 00:46:34,116 Speaker 1: as long as it fills you with a small sense 842 00:46:34,196 --> 00:46:36,836 Speaker 1: of dread and fear, you know, it's probably good for you. 843 00:46:36,956 --> 00:46:39,316 Speaker 1: You know the old cliche what doesn't kill you makes 844 00:46:39,316 --> 00:46:41,236 Speaker 1: you stronger. There is a huge amount of truth in that, 845 00:46:41,316 --> 00:47:05,956 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Hey, thanks for listening. That's a wrap on 846 00:47:06,076 --> 00:47:08,636 Speaker 1: this season of a slight Change of Plans. We'll be 847 00:47:08,716 --> 00:47:11,796 Speaker 1: back soon with more episodes. In the meantime, you can 848 00:47:11,836 --> 00:47:15,196 Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. You can 849 00:47:15,236 --> 00:47:17,396 Speaker 1: get updates and a behind the scenes glimpse of a 850 00:47:17,476 --> 00:47:20,556 Speaker 1: Slight Change and as always, if you have any ideas 851 00:47:20,596 --> 00:47:22,876 Speaker 1: for future guests on the show, please let me know. 852 00:47:23,556 --> 00:47:35,836 Speaker 1: See you soon. A Slight Change of Plans is created 853 00:47:35,876 --> 00:47:39,316 Speaker 1: written an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. The Slight 854 00:47:39,436 --> 00:47:43,516 Speaker 1: Change Family includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, Emily Rosteck 855 00:47:43,596 --> 00:47:46,916 Speaker 1: our producer and fact checker, Jen Guera our senior editor, 856 00:47:47,276 --> 00:47:51,396 Speaker 1: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, and Mia LaBelle, our executive producer. 857 00:47:51,876 --> 00:47:54,436 Speaker 1: A special thanks to Kishell Williams for her help on 858 00:47:54,476 --> 00:47:58,076 Speaker 1: this episode. Louis Skara wrote our theme song and Ginger 859 00:47:58,116 --> 00:48:01,396 Speaker 1: Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans 860 00:48:01,556 --> 00:48:04,276 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to 861 00:48:04,356 --> 00:48:08,836 Speaker 1: everyone there, including Nicole Morano, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Heather 862 00:48:09,516 --> 00:48:13,356 Speaker 1: and Carly Niggliori, and of course a very special thanks 863 00:48:13,436 --> 00:48:16,156 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change of 864 00:48:16,196 --> 00:48:32,756 Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at Doctor Maya Shunker. The coach actually 865 00:48:32,836 --> 00:48:35,236 Speaker 1: came out first that day, and I didn't actually even 866 00:48:35,356 --> 00:48:38,076 Speaker 1: realize that it was the coach until I started talking 867 00:48:38,156 --> 00:48:40,916 Speaker 1: to him. He was sitting on my lap like one 868 00:48:40,916 --> 00:48:43,436 Speaker 1: of the other boys and I was joking around with him, 869 00:48:43,476 --> 00:48:45,596 Speaker 1: and it was doctor Park who said said, Harry, you 870 00:48:45,676 --> 00:48:48,356 Speaker 1: realized that's the coach. So I'm joking around, talking to 871 00:48:48,436 --> 00:48:50,916 Speaker 1: him like his little boy, and yeah, he's just twenty 872 00:48:50,916 --> 00:48:52,436 Speaker 1: five year old man sitting on my lap. So that 873 00:48:52,556 --> 00:48:54,196 Speaker 1: was another cause for a good laugh.