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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 1: and speaker.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,

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Speaker 2: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who

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Speaker 2: love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

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Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

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Speaker 3: Term career goals.

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Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

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Speaker 1: This episode is airing in early July of twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about a variety of topics,

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Speaker 1: including time in the car and getting out the door

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Speaker 1: on time in order to spend time in the car.

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Speaker 1: We will also be talking about hosting. So if you

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Speaker 1: are not getting in the car staying at your house,

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Speaker 1: but other people are coming there, perhaps in their cars.

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Speaker 1: Some tips for bringing people over, having a good time,

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Speaker 1: and why you might consider hosting even if you think

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Speaker 1: you're not necessarily the Martha Stewart of the world.

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Speaker 3: So fun fact, we did.

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Speaker 1: There are very few episodes that Sarah and I record

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Speaker 1: that don't see the light of day. We are efficient

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Speaker 1: people and we don't like to leave stuff on the

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Speaker 1: cutting room floor. However, there was an episode on how

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Speaker 1: to get out the Door Faster, more efficiently, with less

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Speaker 1: Nagging that was scheduled to air in late March of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and of course, shortly before this air the

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Speaker 1: world shut down and many of us were not getting

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Speaker 1: out the door in the morning quite as frequently anymore,

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Speaker 1: and we felt that it would have been a bit

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Speaker 1: tone deaf to air that episode, so we pulled it.

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Speaker 1: Did some COVID related content, but I think it's time

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Speaker 1: to come back to it, Sarah, as long.

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Speaker 2: As it does not spawn another I mean, you know

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Speaker 2: how the world works, right, I remember that we are

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Speaker 2: charging like.

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Speaker 1: Sarah, little did you know? But it was our recording

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Speaker 1: that episode exactly.

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Speaker 2: I totally remember the moment when we were like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's we're going to have to do something else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, not too many episodes that we've had to do that,

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Speaker 1: but a few. So we're going to try again with

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Speaker 1: our strategies for getting out the door. So Sarah, at

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Speaker 1: least a few mornings a week, you are in charge

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Speaker 1: of getting your crew out in the car and doing

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Speaker 1: a double drop off and getting yourself to work. I mean, first,

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Speaker 1: how often does that happen? Now, It's only like twice

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Speaker 1: a week, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's summer right now, so we're a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a different schedule. But during your school year, I mean,

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Speaker 2: actually it's still kind of twice a week, and during

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Speaker 2: the school year it's two to three times a week,

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Speaker 2: depending on the week. But that doesn't also count like

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Speaker 2: getting out the door for activities and basketball practice and

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Speaker 2: music lessons and guitar all of which require a different

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Speaker 2: suite of readiness, maybe different hairstyle, different things you have

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Speaker 2: to bring with you. And let me just tell you,

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Speaker 2: getting out the door for some of my children is

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Speaker 2: very challenging.

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Speaker 3: Okay, why is that.

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Speaker 2: I think it's an ADHD thing. I mean, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think ADHD makes getting out the door very difficult because

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Speaker 2: you're integrating all these different inputs. You're kind of having

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Speaker 2: to stay organized, You're having to go in a sequential fashion.

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Speaker 2: Medications for ADHD do not kick in immediately and so

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Speaker 2: are likely to not be doing anything during the hours

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Speaker 2: in which people may or may not be getting out

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Speaker 2: the door. I don't want to generalize, because maybe there

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Speaker 2: are people with ADHD who are really really good at this,

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Speaker 2: But my observation has been that there's a correlation between

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Speaker 2: that condition and struggling and going back for missing items

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Speaker 2: and I lost my phone and oh I'm wearing the

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Speaker 2: wrong shoes and whatever. So yeah, we've spent a lot

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Speaker 2: of time working on it. We try to make things

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Speaker 2: as easy as possible by talking through them ahead of time,

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Speaker 2: leaving items where they will be seen, like right in

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Speaker 2: front of the door, and just a lot of repetition.

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Speaker 2: Like I actually had a conversation with one child the

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Speaker 2: other day and was like, Okay, let's talk about let

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Speaker 2: me give you various scenarios, and I want you to

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Speaker 2: list what you need to get out the door, because

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Speaker 2: I don't want to manage all my stuff and multiple

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Speaker 2: kids stuff every time we have to leave. And especially

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about like teens and tweens, it's like,

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Speaker 2: come on your school ID, like you need it.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I do feel like the repetition helps. Leaving enough time

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Speaker 2: does help, and a little bit of personal responsibility has helped.

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Speaker 2: So for the kids' school that they go to, if

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Speaker 2: they do not have their ID with them, they get

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Speaker 2: charged twenty five dollars. The school has to reprint a

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Speaker 2: new IDA that very day, or the parent has to

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Speaker 2: bring it, and I'm like, well, that's never happening because

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Speaker 2: I don't have an extra hour to drive back to

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Speaker 2: school and bring your ID. So I will pay for

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Speaker 2: one forgotten ID per year per child, and then after

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Speaker 2: that it's on you. And it does seem like it

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Speaker 2: is a powerful motivator. So just a little bit of

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Speaker 2: like natural consequence, and they do get allowances. So twenty

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Speaker 2: five dollars is I think just enough of sting without

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Speaker 2: it being like absolutely devastating.

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Speaker 3: That helps. Yeah, And you used to have a soundtrack

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Speaker 3: for this, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, when they were little, we had the Descendant soundtrack

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Speaker 2: come on right when it was like Okay, need to

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Speaker 2: be putting shoes on, need to leave into this day.

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Speaker 2: I'll hear those opening beats of the like Deep Diddy Dean,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh no, oh no, we have to

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Speaker 2: go it. Actually, I would advise changing the song every

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Speaker 2: once in a while because either will become a very

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Speaker 2: stressful song or you'll stop hearing it.

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Speaker 3: I have lovian response like oh no, yes, not that song.

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Speaker 3: You'll just be driving the car.

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Speaker 1: It comes on and you're like panicking for unknown reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I actually think we could revisit the song,

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Speaker 2: especially because next year my kids are actually gonna have

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Speaker 2: to leave even earlier. They changed the school start time

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Speaker 2: and moved it back twenty minutes, so it might be

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Speaker 2: time to bring back the song.

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Speaker 1: And do you do a lot of this sort of prep?

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Speaker 1: I mean, how much is on them versus you At

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Speaker 1: this point.

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Speaker 2: My older twelve and fourteen, most of it's on them.

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Speaker 2: If I see an upper coortunity to make things easier,

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Speaker 2: like I might see something that's hidden and I can

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Speaker 2: put it in front of the door, I will do it.

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Speaker 2: But in general, I feel that by middle school we

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Speaker 2: kind of expect the kids to be in charge of

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Speaker 2: their various things. Would by you, guys, I mean you

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Speaker 2: have even more people to get out the door, and

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Speaker 2: you have something we don't really deal with, which is

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Speaker 2: like outerwear.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that is true.

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Speaker 1: There is outerwear in our part of the world, although

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Speaker 1: generally not too extensive of outerwear.

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Speaker 3: I mean a coat and mittens and hat.

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Speaker 2: That's adding three things to the list of like like

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Speaker 2: that is not trivial.

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Speaker 3: I just want to say, that's not trivial.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, except they live in the same place as the

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Speaker 1: shoes in the backpack. Right, So our mudroom contains whatever

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Speaker 1: you would need to get out the door. So there

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Speaker 1: is a little bin with keys, there is a bin

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Speaker 1: with umbrellas.

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Speaker 3: All coats are hung in the mudroom or deposit on

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Speaker 3: the floor, it doesn't matter, but they need to be there.

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Speaker 1: Shoes are in the mudroom. The kids just have a

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Speaker 1: pair for every day wear. Boots are something else, like generally,

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Speaker 1: you're not wearing boots to school, Like we're not walking

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Speaker 1: to school in the snow. You're getting in a car

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Speaker 1: and getting there and getting out there with.

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Speaker 3: A shoveled sidewalk. So it's one pair of shoes.

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Speaker 1: Whatever your everyday code is, your backpack a musical instrument.

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Speaker 3: I guess those have been living in the mudroom too.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff in the mudroom, but all

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Speaker 1: of that is there, and so you at least have

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Speaker 1: to walk past it to get out the door.

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Speaker 3: So the only kid.

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Speaker 1: This will change in the summer because camp has you know,

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Speaker 1: they don't serve lunch necessarily. All my kids buy lunch

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Speaker 1: except Alex has chosen to make his lunch. But then

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Speaker 1: that is one hundred percent on him. He has been

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Speaker 1: very good about doing it. He also has a buffer

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Speaker 1: of money in his account, so if he forgot it,

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Speaker 1: someday he could avail himself of whatever is in the

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Speaker 1: cafeteria and it wouldn't be a big problem.

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Speaker 3: So that's something I just have not worried about all

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Speaker 3: that much.

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Speaker 1: A big thing that's been helpful for me is to

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Speaker 1: get warnings of you know, just in general, like we're

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Speaker 1: leaving on the weekend and we have decided we want

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Speaker 1: to be in the car at twelve thirty, So at

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Speaker 1: like twelve ten or twelve fifteen, I will shout through

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Speaker 1: the house or text older children we will be in

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Speaker 1: the car in fifteen minutes at twelve thirty. And for

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Speaker 1: the most part they understand that means they should be

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Speaker 1: getting their shoes on at like twelve twenty eight, right,

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Speaker 1: like if there's a bathroom trip that needs to happen

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Speaker 1: prior to twelve twenty eight, when you were getting on

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Speaker 1: your shoes and getting in the car. And this has

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Speaker 1: just sort of been through repeat repetition, like tell Henry, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now we're getting our shoes on, and now we're getting

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Speaker 1: in the car. The one person I would say is

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Speaker 1: somewhat problematic with this would be my husband. That we

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Speaker 1: can agree on a time that we will get in

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Speaker 1: the car and he will be doing something to get

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Speaker 1: ready at that time. I'm like, no, no, that was

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Speaker 1: the time in the car, which means that if you

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Speaker 1: intended to walk the dog, that should be happening ten

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Speaker 1: minutes prior. Right, if you want to go brush your teeth,

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Speaker 1: that should be happening five minutes prior. Like the time

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Speaker 1: we were in the car is the time we are

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Speaker 1: in the car.

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Speaker 2: And the question is this time blindness or a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a rebellious streak or a mix of both.

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Speaker 2: Hard to tell.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, but I'm like, well, we agreed

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Speaker 1: to this as a family, Like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: nag like an adult, but this is really irritating.

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Speaker 2: So I think that like some people, it just you know,

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Speaker 2: when you say that, oh, we have to leave at

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Speaker 2: seven thirty, and the concept that like at seven twenty

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Speaker 2: eight or maybe even earlier, because some of my kids

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Speaker 2: take a long time to put their shoes and socks on.

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Speaker 2: You need to be kneeling down putting your socks on,

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Speaker 2: tying your shoes, that a lot of people that is

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Speaker 2: not instinctual.

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Speaker 1: Well, so that is something if you are getting a

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Speaker 1: crew out the door and maybe your spouse needs help

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Speaker 1: with this, is well maybe you do that. You could

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Speaker 1: think through the steps that are required to get out

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Speaker 1: the door. And so that time in the car is

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Speaker 1: not the time that you are finishing up you're getting ready.

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Speaker 1: There is a time before that, there are steps that

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Speaker 1: must have that then you get in the car at

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Speaker 1: that certain time.

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Speaker 2: And I've had completely frank conversations like well, do you

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Speaker 2: want a play by play or do you want me

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Speaker 2: to be quiet? But like, if I'm quiet, then the

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Speaker 2: agreement has to be that you're actually in the car

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Speaker 2: kind of a thing. And sometimes kids are like, you

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Speaker 2: know what, I want the play by play. So sometimes

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Speaker 2: just being really really open about it. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: anybody that's listening in is like, I don't have a mudroom.

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Speaker 2: You can mimic that by either just throwing everything right

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Speaker 2: next to the door, which is what we do. We

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Speaker 2: have like a little table it's the exit place, or

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Speaker 2: if you happen to like go through a garage, if

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Speaker 2: there's like a closet on that side. So even if

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Speaker 2: there's not a dedicated room. Really thinking about how to

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Speaker 2: strategically lay things out is helpful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't get stuck on the idea of oh

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Speaker 1: my foyer needs to look nice.

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Speaker 3: It does not.

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Speaker 1: Like if you have a lot of people in your house,

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Speaker 1: getting them out the door in an orderly fashion is

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Speaker 1: going to do more for your life excitement and happiness.

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Speaker 1: Then I think having a perfectly pristine foyer so I

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Speaker 1: would not worry. You can put bins, but like they

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Speaker 1: may not put their stuff back in the binds, you

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Speaker 1: still want it to be there, yes, and so I

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Speaker 1: think that's a key part of it. Sarah, you're pretty

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Speaker 1: quick at getting yourself ready.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, let's do our own readiness routines and we'll

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Speaker 2: see who's faster after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: All right, So if you were just getting yourself ready

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Speaker 1: time from like wake up to done, how much time

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Speaker 1: would that be?

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Speaker 2: Well, since I've been doing a lot more time tracking,

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Speaker 2: it's really oh time from wait, waking up to done

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Speaker 2: or you mean getting ready to done, because those are

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Speaker 2: two very separate situations.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, I mean waking up if you were not

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Speaker 3: doing a two hour morning.

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Speaker 1: Routine like you do, Okay, sorom when the time that

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Speaker 1: like the getting ready starts.

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Speaker 2: Yes, getting ready, it takes between fifteen and thirty minutes.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen minutes is a rushed version. This includes a shower.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen minutes is very like I'm running, but I can

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Speaker 2: do it any nice, comfortable one where maybe also taking

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Speaker 2: the time to like braid a kid's hair, put stuff

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Speaker 2: by the door. It is about thirty minutes, so fairly quick.

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Speaker 2: I don't do much to my hair. I just let

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Speaker 2: it air dry, and my makeup takes about three minutes

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Speaker 2: if that. And I tend to wear the same things

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Speaker 2: every day, so none of that requires a lot of

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Speaker 2: thought or a lot of time. I feel like you

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Speaker 2: were similar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so for instance, on the days that

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Speaker 1: Michael is driving the middle schoolers, they leave at seven thirty.

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Speaker 1: I get up at six forty and I am ready,

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Speaker 1: like I am dressed, showered, makeup at seven when I

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Speaker 1: wake Ruth up. Now, I haven't eaten breakfast and I

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Speaker 1: hadn't have a coffee. But I mean, if I were

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Speaker 1: getting myself out the door, I think it's usually like

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Speaker 1: totally ready, like for a you know, need to look presentable,

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Speaker 1: it would be thirty minutes total to being presentable, because

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Speaker 1: then I would dry my hair and I would curl it.

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Speaker 1: Breakfast can be short, but often I do this in

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Speaker 1: sequence too.

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Speaker 3: I would like, on the.

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Speaker 1: Days I'm going to church and I'm going by myself,

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Speaker 1: for instance, that tends to be an only mommy thing.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I would do my shower, makeup, then i'd

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Speaker 1: make my coffee and have breakfast. So that's a few minutes,

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Speaker 1: and during that time, my hair is starting to dry.

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Speaker 1: So when I go back upstairs to finish drying it,

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Speaker 1: it's literally like a two minute process to dry it,

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Speaker 1: and then I curl it.

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Speaker 3: And I've been charging the.

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Speaker 1: Curling iron while I'm drying it, so then that's only

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Speaker 1: another like three minutes and brush my teeth and then

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Speaker 1: I can head out, So it's not that long. But

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Speaker 1: if I get a waiting time, like a waiting sequence

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Speaker 1: in there, it's helpful because then that shortens the hair

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Speaker 1: part totally.

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Speaker 2: I just have no shame about just appearing at work

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Speaker 2: with wet hair, and it eventually, I mean, my hair

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Speaker 2: is Japanese street and so it will dry super straight

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Speaker 2: and it's fine no matter what happens. So it's not amazing.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, we were talking about the ADHD thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know that I sort of have a

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Speaker 1: general philosophy of like, transitions can be quick. We don't

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Speaker 1: get hung up on them. You just think through the

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Speaker 1: sequence of what you need to do and you do it.

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Speaker 1: And I think to some degree, the kids have been

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Speaker 1: pretty good about responding to that expectation.

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Speaker 3: And I know that every kid is different.

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Speaker 1: And I also got lucky on this that nobody is

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Speaker 1: rebelling against a timeline of getting out the door.

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Speaker 3: Because that can happen.

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Speaker 1: But like, especially with my daughter, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: how low maintenance she is the other day. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's gotten pretty far into teenagerdom here with a very

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Speaker 1: limited amount of time getting ready in the morning.

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Speaker 3: She showers at.

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Speaker 1: Night, but she also would prefer to sleep longer in

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Speaker 1: the morning, and I know some of her acquaintances get

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Speaker 1: up quite a bit earlier to get ready.

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Speaker 3: And she doesn't want to do that.

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Speaker 1: And so she's also pretty quick about just getting out

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Speaker 1: the door and not thinking too much about it. And

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that because I think sometimes I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I heard from a lot of people like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: just you wait, that horrible phrase like when you have

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Speaker 1: teenage girls, you just can't get.

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Speaker 3: Out the door.

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Speaker 1: They're just always going to take forever, have to take forever,

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Speaker 1: And I think some of that's the expectation. Also, if

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Speaker 1: you don't see mom taking forever, that's not your reference

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Speaker 1: point of what is normal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my teen How do I put this?

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Speaker 2: There is definitely a getting ready situation that's more than

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Speaker 2: I would do. But she is very good at managing

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Speaker 2: her time, so even if it takes longer, she knows

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Speaker 2: when to start and how to manage that, whereas others

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Speaker 2: may not be high maintenance at all. But I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying that they're like doing things. They might just be

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Speaker 2: sitting staring at the wall, or like they saw some

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Speaker 2: legos that were half done, or they need to see

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Speaker 2: what the three D printer was doing, or like just

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Speaker 2: not following the whole like linear. Yeah yeah, until you've

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Speaker 2: it sounds weird, but if it's just reality for some.

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Speaker 3: People, absolutely, So let's pivot to time in the car.

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Speaker 1: Boy always spend sixteen minutes talking about getting out the door,

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Speaker 1: so time in the car. So, Sarah, you realized from

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Speaker 1: your time tracking, which you have been doing, that you

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Speaker 1: are spending quite a bit of time in the car,

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Speaker 1: which you do, but it really put a number on it.

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Speaker 3: I knew it.

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Speaker 2: It's really funny. So I decided to feed my timeline

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Speaker 2: to AI, not to ask it to what I should do,

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Speaker 2: because I would not even really welcome their input, but

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Speaker 2: to just give me the totals, like, Okay, you spent

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Speaker 2: this much time driving, And despite me not really asking

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Speaker 2: for commentary, every time I do it, Chatchubt is like, wow,

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Speaker 2: you really spend a lot of time driving. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm well aware, but it has been interesting to see

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Speaker 2: the totals. I think one week it was like fifteen hours.

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Speaker 2: That's I don't even think that was a particularly heavy week.

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Speaker 2: It's the kids' school is not that close. My work

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Speaker 2: is not that close. I live in sort of a

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Speaker 2: I don't know, not a super congested like. The good

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Speaker 2: news is there's not a lot of traffic, but the

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Speaker 2: bad news is that things are just fairly far apart

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Speaker 2: distance wise. One thing about the choice to send your

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Speaker 2: kids to, like not the local public school is that

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Speaker 2: not only do you likely have to drive them more

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Speaker 2: when it comes to the actual school because not everywhere

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Speaker 2: or provide transportation, but their friends are all going to

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Speaker 2: live a lot farther, and so they're just more likely

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Speaker 2: to have stuff on the weekend where you're driving forty

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Speaker 2: five minutes to do, like a play date drop off.

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Speaker 2: So that's part of it. I have family in Miami Beach,

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Speaker 2: which is an hour away, which is far not that far,

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Speaker 2: so of course we can just go to have a

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Speaker 2: brunch or something like that, but it's far enough that wow,

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Speaker 2: that's two hours in the car. So my life is

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Speaker 2: fairly drive heavy. I've already outsourced a lot of it.

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Speaker 2: So anyone that's like, well, why are you doing all

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Speaker 2: the driving, I'm one hundred percent not. I think two

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Speaker 2: to three mornings a week, either my husband or nanny

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Speaker 2: drive the kids, and I pick up from school zero

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Speaker 2: out of five times because I'm working, either I'm working

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Speaker 2: on podcast stuff or I'm in clinics. So yeah, just

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Speaker 2: try to embrace that time, like just see it as

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Speaker 2: time like anything else. I also really try once I'm

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Speaker 2: in the car, it's like there's not even a point

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Speaker 2: of stressing about traffic because you cannot change what's there.

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Speaker 2: So I might call someone or send an ETA or

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Speaker 2: something like that, but just to get myself bogged down

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Speaker 2: in the men to stress. It is ah, the cars.

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Speaker 2: It's like, no, there's no point the cars. I'll get

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Speaker 2: there when I get there. I will listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 2: I will listen to music. I will talk to the kid,

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Speaker 2: I will talk to somebody on the phone. Honestly, the

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Speaker 2: only thing that starses me out about driving is driving

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Speaker 2: through terrible weather. And I really don't like that, but

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Speaker 2: it happens.

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Speaker 3: It happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if I've got one kid in the car, it's

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Speaker 1: good to chat with them.

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Speaker 3: This was an upside of you.

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Speaker 1: Know, when a teenager is learning to drive and they

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Speaker 1: have to get a lot of supervised driving time, and

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Speaker 1: obviously they cannot listen to their headphones while they are driving,

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Speaker 1: and so they're forced to talk with you in a

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Speaker 1: way that wouldn't happen if you were driving.

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Speaker 3: So little parenting tip there. You can keep them driving

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Speaker 3: for long. Hey, why don't you drive? Why don't you drive?

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Speaker 1: Even if you're in the car with them. So I

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Speaker 1: do a lot of my Mozart listening well in the car.

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Speaker 1: So this is one of the things that I realized

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Speaker 1: with my year long projects. If I'm reading something and

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Speaker 1: need to be stationary and focused, I can't guarantee that

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Speaker 1: long on any given day. I think maybe I could

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Speaker 1: commit like fifteen minutes a day for certain to something.

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Speaker 1: Some days you could do more, but some days you

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Speaker 1: really can't.

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Speaker 3: But where's listening.

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Speaker 1: It can be longer because there is time that it

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Speaker 1: can be multitasked, and particularly time when you are running

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Speaker 1: around in the car somewhere or another. So like a

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Speaker 1: twenty minute Mozart sonata or whatever can be listened to

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Speaker 1: ten minutes to the middle school and ten minutes home

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Speaker 1: or maybe not home because that a kid doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to listen to it, but like half of it could

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Speaker 1: be listened there and then another ten minutes somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: and that just you get through a lot of it,

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Speaker 1: you realize, like how much time there is.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it does a lot for you too.

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Speaker 2: Like music, I find very calming and centering because if

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Speaker 2: you're really listening to music, and I was listening to

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00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 2: Bach Inventions on my way back. I had Tate McCray

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Speaker 2: on the way there with Annabel djaying and then back

439
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 2: Inventions and I was like, yeah, my brain is very quiet,

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Speaker 2: it's very calm. It's just listening. And for you, you're also

441
00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: sort of like checking something off, which must feel a

442
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,440
Speaker 2: little bit satisfying, And there's just a pleasure of listening

443
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 2: to music. And I actually was thinking that it in

444
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,439
Speaker 2: this day and age when we are so distracted, there

445
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 2: is a little bit of like brain training to staying

446
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 2: focused on music that I think is particularly valuable. So

447
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,160
Speaker 2: seeing that as a great use of time, I think

448
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 2: just like reframes the whole experience.

449
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then before we take our second ad break,

450
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: I just wanted to touch on policies with older kids

451
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:32,439
Speaker 1: doing family driving. So we've generally not had the kids

452
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 1: drive Henry so much because he is still very distracting.

453
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: You could be like merging onto a highway and he's like,

454
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: I want.

455
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 4: To know about this lizard, tell me about this listen,

456
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 4: and you're like, not now, kid, later later, we will

457
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 4: revisit your favorite lizard later.

458
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 1: But I feel like that could be problematic for a

459
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 1: inexperienced driver to be dealing with, whereas the other kids

460
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 1: driving Alex or Ruth around is not going to have that.

461
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 1: They are wise enough to shut up in a complicated situation.

462
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: So I've definitely been asking kids to do some of

463
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 1: that as a way to reduce the burden on me

464
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 1: for sure, give them some more practice driving. And then

465
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: as part of being in the family and having car privileges,

466
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: that we have a car that is available for team use,

467
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: for going to friends on the weekend or going to

468
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: an evening activity, which then you have the freedom to

469
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 1: do something like go with a friend to Chipotle after

470
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 1: an event, and because you have a car. But because

471
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 1: of that, then we ask a little bit of family

472
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: help in the meantime.

473
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: Seems reasonable, and it's facilitating gathering between siblings.

474
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: That's true, which was one of my goals. I don't

475
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:56,120
Speaker 3: know how much they talk.

476
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: Maybe it's more s uber driver where you've clicked prefers

477
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: no conversation or something.

478
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: Other kids earbuds are at the max level out the max.

479
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to be part of this, but then

480
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 1: it's time I'm not in the car, which it's hard

481
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: to use well.

482
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 3: As discussed, I.

483
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 2: Will say it is nice when your kids become big

484
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: enough to move to the front seat. It does make

485
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 2: conversation a little bit easier and more pleasant versus I mean,

486
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 2: you can still have a conversation with the child in

487
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: the backseat, but it's just like logistically harder it's harder

488
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: to hear. You don't want to turn your head, you

489
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 2: can't make eye contact, et cetera.

490
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right, Well we're going to take one

491
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 1: more quick ad break and then we'll be back with

492
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: a quick discussion of hosting.

493
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 3: Well, we are back.

494
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: We've been talking getting out the door and then time

495
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: in the car, and now we are onto the third topic, hosting.

496
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: So, Sarah, have you hosted any groups lately?

497
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: The only thing that comes to mind is that I

498
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: hosted book club the other day. I usually do this

499
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: one or two times per year, and my book club

500
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 2: has anywhere from I don't know, five to ten members

501
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 2: that come to any gathering. Many people are local, a

502
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 2: few people drive maybe fifteen minutes. It's all women. We

503
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 2: always have food, So I just treat it as a

504
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 2: very low key thing. I do not work myself up.

505
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: I make sure the bathroom's clean. That's really the only like.

506
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: I don't ever want to go to someone's house and

507
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: use a bathroom that's not clean, So I make sure

508
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: our guest bathroom is in good shape. Our house is

509
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: generally okay ish enough beyond that, like, it's not perfect,

510
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 2: but it's also not like dysfunctional and embarrassing. Extra bonus

511
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: if it happens to be the week that our cleaning

512
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: service commes, but if not, it's fine. And I usually

513
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: pick up food last minute, like on my way home

514
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: from work. Stop at fresh Market tends to be my

515
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: go to routine. Sometimes I order Crumble cookies for delivery

516
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 2: and I just chill, and honestly, it's been great. In fact,

517
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 2: the last one two of the kids happen to have

518
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 2: my son's age. They all go to the same school

519
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: and their friends, so we had like a combo book

520
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: club playdate situation, and it was rowdy, it was a

521
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 2: little loud, but it was great. I definitely had members

522
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: of the book club that just seem hesitant to host,

523
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 2: and they're like, my house isn't ready or I don't know,

524
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: Like I just don't think there's a lot of reasons

525
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: to not host unless you truly live in like a

526
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: construction zone or something like that. I think people work

527
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: hosting up to be a bigger thing than it is,

528
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 2: and so I would actually like to say yes to

529
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: more hosting. I used to do Josh and I used

530
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 2: to be like dinner parties Central. Honestly, like pre kids

531
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: that was so common many weekends, we were making elaborate

532
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: dinner parties and we haven't done that for so many years.

533
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: But that could be like our next era.

534
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 3: Maybe Yeah.

535
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: I would say one upside of sort of the decluttering

536
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: the house right, is that then things can never get

537
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: too out of control. There's just not enough stuff for

538
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: it to be like so over the top that it

539
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: can't be put away. But I also think that like

540
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: in this situation, you know, I people want to be

541
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: more social these days. I think people want to have

542
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: more gatherings, Like with people getting tired of like online life,

543
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: you want to have more in real life experiences. And

544
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: if you go to someone's houses, now we know that

545
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: Sarah's going to be checking your bathroom, but.

546
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 3: Most people are not beyond that. They're not sitting there

547
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 3: be Like I saw that.

548
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: She had books stacked up on her desk and somebody

549
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: left a coffee cup on that shelf. And I don't

550
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: think her toys are all unlabeled bins. In fact, I

551
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: saw three toys over there on the floor, Like they're

552
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: not doing that. I mean, you wouldn't do that to somebody,

553
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: Like would you go to somebody's house and sit there

554
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: and be like clicking off the things on your list

555
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: that they were so terrible at doing and judging like this,

556
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: dear friend.

557
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 3: Of yours as a result, like you wouldn't do it.

558
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: On the contrary, I get a little anxious when I

559
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: go into a house that looks like it's too perfect,

560
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: So it's.

561
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: Not gonna spill wine on their sofas, what's gonna happen?

562
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, or it makes me feel like, oh, wow, they

563
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: like worked hard, like I don't know. So I think

564
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: the more real the betters. As long as there's a

565
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: clean bathroom, we're good.

566
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. A clean bathroom is good and that takes like,

567
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: hopefully only a couple of minutes to scrub down and

568
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: make sure it's okay.

569
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

570
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: I just hosted a picnic for about fifty people at

571
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: my house on the past weekend. It was the Choir Picnic,

572
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: which here's a sort of hosting tip for people if

573
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: you'd like to get more into hosting, but you're sort

574
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: of worried about like are.

575
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: People going to want to come?

576
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: Like I'm asking people to do this, was this date

577
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: going to be good? You can offer to host things

578
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: that you know are going to happen, so in Sarah's case. Obviously,

579
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: the book club is planning to meet once a month regardless,

580
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: so it's got built in demand for the experience.

581
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 3: The choir picnic is an annual event. It has to

582
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: happen somewhere.

583
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: It can happen at my house, which we've done the

584
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: same thing with the high school theater club or the

585
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: high school cross country team, or my husband had a

586
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: work recruiting event at our house. It's things that were

587
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: going to happen, and then we can be the place

588
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: that they do and then you know, people will come.

589
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes you even get help with the event. I mean,

590
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: in the case of the work recruiting event, that was

591
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: not on me, that was you know, fully a function

592
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: of the office support.

593
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 2: Staff, right company card for the catering.

594
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's just a way to have

595
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: it happened.

596
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: We tend to have people outside if we possibly can,

597
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: so it's more Hosting between May and October is more

598
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: likely because then you can fit more people, and I

599
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: think just investing in some basic stuff like a couple

600
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: of card tables so you can put out food, some

601
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: extra chairs.

602
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 3: You bought a bunch of folding tables at one point,

603
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 3: right Sarah.

604
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: Yes, when Josh and I we went to Walmart and

605
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: we bought like plastic fold long tables so we could

606
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: have more people sit that would normally fit in our house,

607
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 2: and some folding chairs, and we were like, we are

608
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 2: grown ups now, and this was like three years ago.

609
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: But it's been a great purchase. Honestly. It's like drape

610
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 2: some tablecloths over there, and all of a sudden, we

611
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: can host a bigger family gathering without having a house

612
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: that's particularly set up for that.

613
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, I meant, yeah, yeah, Well then you could

614
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: use the card table to add on to your dining

615
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: room table or whatever. I did that for my extended

616
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: family came for Christmas, and so we had whatever it was,

617
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: like fifteen people for dinner and stretch it out, you know.

618
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: But just I would suggest doing it and not worrying

619
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: so much. But it helps if you get in the

620
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: regular routine of it, because then you have your go

621
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: to things. Like for the picnic, I always put in

622
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: a giant order of fried chicken. We have a place

623
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: near us that produces excellent fried chicken and everybody likes it.

624
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: I had some veggie burgers for the vegetarians, but it's

625
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: the rare person who does not like fried chicken, who

626
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: eats meat, and so they deliver that. You can do

627
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: fruit trays, like everyone will eat that as an appetizer.

628
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: Something like a cheeseboard and shrimp, like that's basic.

629
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: Everyone likes it.

630
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: You'll love a cheeseboard, love a shrimp cocktail, and then

631
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: put out a cooler with drinks and you're probably good

632
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: to go something simple for dessert, even like some people

633
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: like to really do up desserts, and especially if you're

634
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: potlucking it, that can be fun because everyone brings their

635
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: own personal famous dessert. But I've also just done like

636
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: ice cream bars, and people are very happy to have

637
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: a cooler full of ice cream bars, especially if it's

638
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: gonna sit down dinner.

639
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: That's just like a fun thing at the end.

640
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, totally, he doesn't love an ice cream bar,

641
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: I might steal it now. Yeah.

642
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: Oh and one other thing for the picnic, I've hired

643
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: my eleven year old to direct parking and he is

644
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: awesome at it. Like people kept coming in and be

645
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: like your son, I would have given him the keys

646
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: to my cart to valet park.

647
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,239
Speaker 2: I feel like i'd be bad at that. But I

648
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: am so glad that he is good at that, and

649
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: what a way for him to feel useful and for

650
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: people to be all excited. So that's great.

651
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

652
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a very certain way you're going to

653
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: park so that you're on our property and not annoying

654
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: the neighbors.

655
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 3: So he's gotten people in the right place and it's

656
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 3: all good. Yeah. Yeah. Are you going to plan to

657
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: host something in the future, Sarah? I think so.

658
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: I feel pretty motivated, you know, saying this. You really

659
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: truly used to love doing the dinner party thing. So

660
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: my guess is is we're visiting some dear friends who

661
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: are like they influence us in med school to start

662
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: doing this, and I feel like after we see them,

663
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: I'm bringing it on dinner parties, even if it's just

664
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: one family, that's all we need.

665
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: Well, I wish I was closer and then I could

666
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: come to your dinner parties.

667
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: That would be fun. You are invited, I would be invited.

668
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 3: Well that's good, fly down, all right. So today's question

669
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: is do you ever bribe for good behavior? So, Sarah,

670
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: do you?

671
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: I mean do I? I would say our number one

672
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: when we are having trouble getting people to focus or

673
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: do whatever it is we're trying to do. We tend

674
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: to be like, well, if you would like to enjoy

675
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: your video game time, your iPad time, then you will do.

676
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: X y Z.

677
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: So is that bribing? It kind of is because it's

678
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: like you will only get this. It's almost negative reinforcement

679
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: because it's like I will not let you have this thing.

680
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: But it's also could be seen as like I will

681
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: let you have this thing my husband calls a digital cake.

682
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: You get your digital cake if you can compla with

683
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: this and that, and so I guess we do that

684
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: on the regular. I also will have a situation maybe

685
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: where we want everyone to come to something, but not

686
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: everyone wants to go to something. So in exchange, it's like,

687
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: we will take you to this thing that you would

688
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: like to go to. Is it bribing? Is it bartering?

689
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: Is it just extending the same respect to them that

690
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: you're asking them to extend to you. I think these

691
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: are blurry lines, and we do those things.

692
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 3: What about you? Yeah, I mean generally I don't like too.

693
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I've read all the philosophy books and there's

694
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: a I don't like Elfie Cone's work, But I know

695
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: that the punished by rewards thing is big and sort

696
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: of the education circles. It's the subtitles, the problem with

697
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: a's grades, gold stars, things like that, and I get

698
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: it right, like all of this is arbitrary, Like what

699
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: was the Like I think of the factory trying to

700
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: get people to do stuff.

701
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: It's sort of soulless in some way.

702
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: However, I would say that it's just ridiculous think that

703
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: we are not influenced by it, and so much of

704
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: the architecture of life is that way. Would you go

705
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 1: to your job if you were not getting paid, Like

706
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: I hope you are intrinsically rewarded by your job and

707
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: find it motivational.

708
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: But my guess is you wouldn't if you weren't getting.

709
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: Paid, And so why do we expect anything different of children?

710
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: We had one particular instance with one child who was

711
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: having some issues in class with talking out of turn,

712
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: creating a disturbance that was making a challenging classroom environment.

713
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: For other people.

714
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: So, working with the teacher, we came up with a

715
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: system where she would evaluate him multiple times during the

716
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: day and he would get three points for perfect behavior,

717
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: two points for okay, one point or less for a problem.

718
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: And the reason it was multiple times during the day

719
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: is you don't want a bad morning to mean that

720
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: the day is shot.

721
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: And so the kid is just like, well, why do

722
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: I even try?

723
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: Like you want it to be as immediate as possible,

724
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: And so then if he got a certain number of

725
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: points during the day, basically almost a perfect score for

726
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: the day, we would reward him with a video game currency,

727
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: like a certain volume of dollars equivalent in a video

728
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: game currency. So this was a straight up bribe, and

729
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: it was so effective. It was so much cheaper than

730
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: like behavioral therapy, than going to various specialists to deal

731
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: with this, to having disciplinary consequences in the school. So

732
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: for the grand total of I don't know, I mean,

733
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: I don't think it was much more than like one

734
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars that I wound up shelling out

735
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: over the course of a few months, the problem was solved,

736
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: This skill was learned, the skill of keeping that thought

737
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: to yourself until an appropriate moment was learned, and as

738
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: a result, there was no more trouble after that. So

739
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: we kept going to the end the school year and

740
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: then did not even need to have it.

741
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: That's awestume and I mean, I laugh, but I know

742
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: these things can be really serious and really hard. I

743
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: don't mean to make light of it at all, just

744
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: the way you set it up. But I think that

745
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: is fascinating that it translated to longer terms. So it

746
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: must have been more about like let me show you

747
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: that you can do this, or let me like teach

748
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: your body what it feels like to not say something

749
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: the first minute it comes to your mind. And that's

750
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: really really cool. I think that categorically saying like I

751
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: will never use that kind of a strategy is I

752
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 2: just think it's a little like naive or I don't know,

753
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: you wrote something about like that's for people who have

754
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: never had kids might say I'd never bribe my children,

755
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: But the truth is, and again like what's a bribe

756
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: and what's an incentive? Like I think these things can

757
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: be a little bit murky.

758
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and you know your kid too, Like,

759
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: I mean, there's some kids that truly are motivated to

760
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: get good grades because they like that. If there are

761
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: others who would respond much better to our reward, and

762
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: you think it would be good for them to put

763
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: the effort in and they would then sure, you could

764
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: pay for good grades. I mean you could freeze it

765
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: in a different way, like or you could just call

766
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: it a reward.

767
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

768
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: Do you do you pay for good grades?

769
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

770
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: We don't either, I don't.

771
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: But so far it hasn't really come up as much,

772
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: and when children have had issues, it's more just been

773
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: a discussion with them, like, look, this is not your

774
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: best work.

775
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: My kids, even the younger, seem to grasp the idea

776
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: that trying as best as you can might open up

777
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: opportunities for you later on. So like, it's not e

778
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even say they're just like wanting to get

779
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: the A. It's just like, oh, I kind of implicitly

780
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: understand that hopefully doing as best as I can will

781
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: benefit me later, even in a vague way. And so

782
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: that's why we haven't had to do it. I don't

783
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: think it's just love of learning. I think it is

784
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: actually like this vague sense that this is what you

785
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: should try to do and it will pay off.

786
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: I mean grades are so arbitrary too, Yes, does an

787
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: A and social studies mean you have learned all of so?

788
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: Maybe not? Like have you learned important stuff? Maybe not?

789
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: I don't know you've learned whatever that particular teacher chose

790
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: to grade on a particular exam or project. So I

791
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: mean we're already in the realm of arbitrary things anyway,

792
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: So I guess I'm not as worked up.

793
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 3: About it as I think you some people might be anyway,

794
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 3: all right, Love of the week, Sarah, what do you have?

795
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: I got some new Lululemon socks and I had not

796
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: bought socks in a really really long time, like embarrassingly long,

797
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 2: and some of them might have had holes in them.

798
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: And when they came and I put them on, I

799
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: was like, this is how socks should be. And just

800
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: like PSA, you're allowed to buy socks, You're allowed to

801
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: replace your socks. You can even buy new socks every

802
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: few years if you would like to.

803
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: And every few years, Sarah, what is this world coming to?

804
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 2: It's just and it might make you happy to put

805
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: on socks that match and don't have holes in them

806
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: and aren't stretched out and fit.

807
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it might, it just might. You've inspired me, sir.

808
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: I think it's time for my underwear drawer to get

809
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: an upgrade.

810
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: Replacements perfect, It's time. I believe it is time. All right.

811
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 3: So my love of the week is YouTube videos of music.

812
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: So there are so many performances out there, and so

813
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 1: when I'm listening to Mozart in the car, I often

814
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: do have YouTube going and I'm not looking at the

815
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 1: video obviously, because that would be no, that just doesn't work.

816
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: But the video is playing on my phone that is

817
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: sitting in the car, and I am driving while just.

818
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: Listening to it. I have an old car, so it's

819
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 3: not going through the stereo. It's just on the phone.

820
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: It's okay, wow, I think, Well, we'll talk about your

821
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: car upgrade on a later episode. Yeah, that out grades.

822
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 2: It might be time.

823
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 3: It might be time, It might be time. It still runs.

824
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 3: All right. Well, this has been best of both worlds.

825
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: We've been talking about getting out the door, using time

826
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: in the car, and hosting. We will be back next

827
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: week with more on making work and life fit together.

828
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

829
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

830
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: and you can.

831
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 1: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

832
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 3: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts.

833
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: Please join us next time for more on making work

834
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: and life work together,